Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Friday, 28 Feb 1947

Vol. 104 No. 12

Committee on Finance. - Vote 29—Agriculture.

Minister for Agriculture (Mr. Smith)

I move:—

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £15,690 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1947, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Agriculture, and of certain Services administered by that Office, including sundry Grants-in-Aid.

This Supplementary Estimate is made up of four items. As the House is aware, the Government have increased the grants to University Colleges and as the grants to the University covering the Faculty of General Agriculture and the Faculty of Dairy Science were borne on this Vote, I am making provision in this Supplementary Estimate for the proportionate amount due to the Establishment on foot of that decision for a seven months' period. The amount is £11,030, divided between University College, Dublin, £7,255, and University College, Cork, £3,775, subject to any stipulations that I may decide or feel obliged to attach to this grant.

The next item is one of £860 which is provided to meet the expenses incurred by the county committees of agriculture as a result of the harvest scheme. An arrangement was made at the time between the Department of Industry and Commerce and my Department for the supply of tea and sugar to voluntary workers and secretaries of committees of agriculture were notified of the amounts of these commodities that would be made available to them and they were instructed to order these supplies from whatever trader they had selected. That arrangement, as Deputies are aware, was carried out and this is to recoup the committees for the expenses incurred under that head.

The next item is one of £3,200 which is intended to make it possible to dispose of the amount of Progress wheat which we are importing this year. In reply to a Parliamentary Question, I explained that we were able to import more Progress wheat from Sweden. The price at which it was available to us was somewhere in the neighbourhood of, I think, £5 per barrel and, as the House is aware, the fixed price of pedigree seed produced in this country was 96/-. It was thought desirable that Progress wheat so imported should be made available on similar terms and this Estimate is to enable us to sell this wheat at the same price. The other item is one of £30,500 which is caused by the increases in remuneration to members of the staff of my Department.

Mr. Hughes

I take it that the additional grant provided for the universities is not for any specific purpose or any extension of the existing services. At least, the Minister has not mentioned any such purpose. I take it, it is merely an increase in the cost of the existing services. Under sub-head O (5) there is provision of £3,200 as a subsidy for imported Progress wheat. I am glad we are getting some Progress wheat and I understand that what we had last year gave very good results but I should like to inquire from the Minister how this seed is to be distributed and how the farmers that are to get it will be selected. I presume Pedigree Seed Growers, Limited, will handle it. I have been critical of the policy of using this company, Pedigree Seed Growers, Limited, to deal with the matter of seed. They are a group of Dublin salesmen. They have no interest whatever in seed production beyond the interest of whatever rake-off they can get. No farmer or no farming organisation is consulted in connection with the matter.

I presume Pedigree Seed Growers, Limited, will select the farmers according to their ideas as to the people who should get it. I ask the Minister, does he think that certain distributors in this city are the right people to trust in the selection of people who should get this imported seed for the purpose of propagation, and does he feel that he is treating the farming community of this country fairly in excluding them from having any voice in the matter? Why should an organisation such as that, composed of city men, be allowed to get their rake-off in seed production for this country? They make no real contribution to seed propagation. I resent very much the fact that they have been entrusted with this work. There are many farming organisations that could do this far more efficiently. If the Minister were to entrust it to a farming organisation such as some of the co-operative societies in the south or the Beet Growers' Organisation, which is keenly interested in tillage and which represents the traditional tillage areas in this country, they would take a real interest in ensuring that the seed was properly handled. They would be in the best position to select the best farmers, trustworthy men who would ensure that it was kept clean and true to type and that in threshing operations no admixture would occur.

I feel that the reason why there is such a rapid deterioration in the seed is because we are approaching this matter in the wrong way. The people entrusted with the seed, the pedigree seed producers, have no interest in this matter beyond that they get a pretty substantial rake-off. The farmer who propagates the seed gets £3 for it. It is taken in by these people and, no doubt, cleaned and assembled properly, but they charge 96/- for it. That is too big a margin. I am not criticising the charge made for handling and assembling the seed, because there is no doubt it needs to be handled properly, but I feel the margin between 60/- and 96/- is too wide. The people who handle the seed have only a profit-making interest in it and the agricultural community, who are directly interested, are more or less excluded in that connection. If the cleaning and assembling work is not properly done, and if there is any sign of admixture or careless handling—if the threshing mills are not properly cleaned before the threshing of this special seed—the results cannot but be far from satisfactory.

The Department obviously have failed to secure a suitable agricultural organisation that would take a proper interest in this matter. The Minister is not responsible for that, but I hope, now that he has taken up the work of the Department, he will examine this matter to see if it is possible to get some agricultural organisation to work it. I believe it would be possible to do that. I believe in getting a farmers' organisation to handle the seed, because that would have a tremendous moral effect on the interested people. The Minister may suggest that there are difficulties in the matter of storage. It would be quite possible to hire stores. All along the Barrow valley, for instance, it would be quite possible to hire stores, and that is a district eminently suitable for the production of seed.

Mr. Cogan

There is a grant provided here for county committees of agriculture, recouping them for their expenses in connection with the harvest campaign. The entire farming community owe a deep debt of gratitude to all who assisted in that campaign. At the moment we are experiencing another emergency throughout the country, an emergency just as serious as that which confronted us last August; that is, in connection with the sowing of this year's crops. It is desirable that the Minister should give serious attention to the need of establishing some kind of organisation to deal with that situation. To-morrow is the 1st March when, by tradition and custom, the crows begin to build their nests. I doubt if there is more than a very small fraction of the arable land under the plough. That is an alarming situation. The time is rapidly running out and the Arctic conditions appear to be continuing. The Minister may ask what he can do in the matter. At least he can ensure that in all areas there will be sufficient labour available, from no matter what source it may be drawn.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is travelling away from the Vote when he is looking for labour.

Mr. Cogan

It may be necessary, in the present serious circumstances, to divert labour from other pursuits, other than the production of fuel, which is an equally important issue. Tractors are urgently required and there are tractor owners who have not got sufficient equipment. The Minister could help in that way and steps should be taken to see that every available tractor is put on the land.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is now dealing with a motion on the Order Paper; he is anticipating.

Mr. Cogan

I am referring to it in passing. I am trying to get the Minister to devote his attention to this matter immediately and to endeavour to speed up the work of preparing the land. The weather conditions within the past few weeks have created a serious problem and everything should be done to help the farmers to prepare the land for the season's crops.

I am in agreement with Deputy Hughes that it is undesirable to leave to the seed distributing firms the entire work of assembling and distributing pedigree seeds. In other countries there are firms which have a long agricultural tradition with regard to the production of seeds. Firms are actually engaged in agriculture for the purpose of producing seeds and they are, perhaps, eminently suited for such work. We may not have firms with such long and well-established traditions and if the Minister thinks it would be too far-reaching to adopt the suggestion put forward by Deputy Hughes, to hand over this work to a farmers' organisation or a co-operative society, at least portion of it could be diverted to some organisation such as the Beet Growers' Association or some of the co-operative organisations in the south, and we could see how their methods would compare with those of the firms at present engaged in the work of cleaning and assembling. An experiment of that kind would, in my opinion, be worth while. It might pave the way to the building up of a really effective organisation.

Mr. M. O'Sullivan

Will the Minister say if the provision he is making for increased remuneration for staffs includes cover for the staffs in the Botanic Gardens and the Albert College?

Mr. Smith

No.

Mr. M. O'Sullivan

Will the Minister say if wage increases are contemplated for those staffs, or if there are any negotiations proceeding?

Mr. Smith

Those things must be covered in the ordinary way.

Mr. Hughes

This is only for the university.

Mr. Flanagan

Might I refer to the sum of £860 requested by the Minister for Agriculture for payment to county committees of agriculture in connection with the expenses incurred in the campaign to save the harvest? I thought the Minister would ask for a much greater sum than £860. I would be very glad if the Minister could inform the House what was the amount of expenses incurred by the Dublin County Committee of Agriculture. I understand there are 26 or 27 county committees throughout the country. The sum mentioned would give an average of £30 or £33 per county committee of agriculture. The work was done very economically, and I understand that certain county committees had intended to approve payments in respect of expenses incurred by private citizens in the matter of petrol and by such people as hackney-men who were dependent on their cars for a livelihood and whose services were called on by the various committees. I understood that those people were to get something for their services—at least were to get an amount equivalent to what they had spent. I agree that the county committees did very useful work on that occasion, and I must say that the House should approve with the greatest cordiality the amount asked for by the Minister. I am surprised that it is not far greater, in view of the huge amount of work carried out so very efficiently, work which deserves the highest praise and the deepest gratitude, as Deputy Cogan has said. I should be glad to hear if the Minister has at his disposal any figure which would give an indication of the payment to be made in this respect to the Dublin County Committee.

Deputy Hughes referred to the condition of many of the threshing mills, and I am sure that the Minister is aware—his predecessor at least was well aware—that complaints have continuously been coming in from farmers about the very bad state of quite a large number of threshing mills. This is a very important matter from the point of view of the threshing of seed.

An Ceann Comhairle

Can the Deputy say under which of these four headings he brings threshing mills?

Mr. Flanagan

In regard to seed. When seed is being threshed——

An Ceann Comhairle

I thought it was threshed in Sweden.

Mr. Flanagan

I wanted to draw the Minister's attention to the amount of waste which takes place because of threshing mills not being up to standard. I should be glad if the Minister could arrange for some inspection of these mills, because farmers are making complaints——

An Ceann Comhairle

It does not arise.

Mr. Flanagan

It is a very important matter——

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputies have very important matters to discuss, I am sure, but they have to wait the opportune time.

Mr. Heskin

With other Deputies, I should like to offer my thanks to the Minister and the different committees who helped to overcome the difficulty in connection with the harvest last year. In connection with the allocations of rations to the different areas, one point was lost sight of. In the case of a farmer who employed many additional hands at that time, because the hands were employed and paid, the farmer received no rations in respect of them. That was very unfair because the farmer had to provide rations for the men whom he employed. I was one of a number in my locality who had to employ labour and we could not get rations, even though the men were men who had been doing county council and other work, and I suggest that where extra workers are employed, if the occasion to employ them should again arise, they should come within the scheme.

The allocation of seed is a very important matter, and, in fairness to the county committees who have been asked to co-operate with the Minister in his effort to increase tillage production, such seed should be equally distributed to the county committees, because on these committees there are representative farmers who know the suitability of the applicants for seed. In the majority of cases, very practical men are elected and appointed to the committees and there is no body of farmers—co-operative society, farmers' organisation or any other—more suited to deal with the distribution of the seed. It may be said that Dublin City men and others of that type should not have the allocation, and I agree, but they are still practical men, and I maintain that the proper way to distribute the seed is through the county committee, the members of which will discuss with the agricultural instructors and with practical farmers who are the suitable applicants. I suggest further that, where seed is allocated, the greatest care, as Deputy Hughes pointed out, will be exercised in the threshing of it, because if you want to keep it true to type, it is only men experienced in the handling of machines and practical farmers can do it. Finally, I urge again that, in order to have a proper allocation of seed, it should be distributed through the county committees.

An Ceann Comhairle

It strikes me that Deputy Flanagan was relevant in his remarks with regard to the threshing of seed. I misunderstood him.

Mr. Byrne

With regard to the item "Additional Grant to University College, Cork, Faculty of Dairy Science," could the Minister tell us what provision he is making to guarantee an adequate supply of milk in Dublin?

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not arise. A grant to a college has nothing to do with the milk supply in Dublin.

Mr. Byrne

I hold that when there is a grant for dairy science, the milk and butter supplies of the whole country can be considered.

An Ceann Comhairle

No. It is a grant to University College, Cork.

Mr. Byrne

I cannot follow the argument.

An Ceann Comhairle

I certainly cannot follow the Deputy when he suggests that the provision of a grant to University College, Cork, for a specific purpose entitles him to discuss butter or milk supplies to Dublin residents.

Mr. Byrne

In respect of dairy science generally, I want to know what are the Minister's intentions for the development of the butter and milk industry.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is a matter for the university, not for the Minister.

Mr. Byrne

When there is a grant in respect of dairy science, I hold——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is out of order and I think he is aware of it.

Mr. Byrne

——that the milk production of the whole country arises.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is out of order.

Mr. Byrne

We are threatened with a serious scarcity of milk in Dublin. I hope it will not be like the fuel position and that milk will not become scarce.

Mr. Flanagan

Would it be possible for the Minister to make a statement in connection with the farm improvements scheme?

An Ceann Comhairle

I do not know but it does not arise. The Deputy can put down a question on the point some day.

Mr. Smith

As I explained in introducing the Supplementary Estimate, the amount provided for the universities is on foot of the general decision by the Government to increase the contributions to these institutions, and, as my Vote carried the provision for general agriculture in relation to University College, Dublin, and for the faculty of dairy science in Cork, it should also carry the increased provision represented by the recent Government decision. On this question of seed wheat, I must say that I cannot take the view which has been advanced by Deputy Hughes. The amount of imported seed is 4,800 barrels, of which 1,600 barrels consist of foundation stock. I think that it is right and proper that that amount should be handed to Pedigree Seed Growers, Limited, for further propagation. I do not know what sort of organisation Deputy Hughes has in mind when he says that such seed could be more effectively handled by individual farmers. It might be possible to form such an organisation of farmers, but I do not know of any such organisation at the moment which would undertake that responsibility. I doubt very much if you could find any organisation which would accept the responsibility and the financial risk associated with such a venture. The balance of the seed wheat imported will be distributed in the ordinary way through the seed merchants who have been assembling seed wheat over the years.

Deputy Heskin argued that we should have availed of the services of the county committees of agriculture for this purpose. Without committing myself, I may say that I should be prone to avail of the assistance of county committees in every case in which that could be done. I believe that, in the main, these committees are composed of responsible people who know their job. In respect of the importation of seed oats from Great Britain, which we hope to effect, my Department is at present in touch with the county committees with a view to arranging for the distribution, through traders selected by them, of whatever quantity of seed we get. That is different from the distribution of seed wheat, because we have here a number of persons who have been doing a certain job for the community. When we import seed in this way, I think that those who have been in that business and who have taken the responsibility and the risk associated with it should not be ignored. Subject to that reservation, I am in agreement with Deputy Heskin, that the advice of the county committees and their assistance and co-operation should be obtained on all possible occasions.

Deputy Heskin also referred to distribution of tea and sugar under the scheme for which provision is made in this Supplementary Estimate. He suggested that wider provision should have been made for farmers who were obliged to hire additional workers at their own expense. That is quite just but Deputy Heskin will realise that, in a matter of this kind, it is an enormous task to provide the necessary organisation in a short space of time, so as to get whatever limited supplies are available—and the supplies were limited—into the right channels so as to reach every deserving case. I find that, even with the limited amounts made available, there were some county committees which, for one reason or another, did not find it possible to devise a scheme whereby they could take advantage of the scheme. It is easy to appreciate their difficulty.

The secretary of the county committee was operating in the county town and these harvesting organisations were spread all over the county. It was very difficult for him to purchase supplies allocated to him and, in distributing them, to see that they got into channels which would reach those for whom they were intended. Taking it all in all, I think that a very good job was done. I was glad to hear thanks being offered to all those people who, whether they had any knowledge of the land or not, so magnificently came to the help of the farmers and the country in one of the most disastrous and depressing harvests we have had for a long time.

Mr. Heskin

What I wanted to urge was that, where casuals were employed, they should be classed as voluntary workers under such a scheme because, during the harvest period, they had to be catered for in rationed commodities. They worked very late at night and they had to be supplied with tea. For that reason, I suggest that, should the occasion again arise, such men should, though paid, be classed as "voluntary", so that they could come within the scope of such a scheme as was operated during the last harvest.

Mr. M. O'Sullivan

May I correct an impression made by way of interjection by Deputy Hughes regarding the question I raised about Botanic Gardens and Albert College? Deputy Hughes indicated that these matters did not come——

Mr. Hughes

We are dealing with universities.

Mr. M. O'Sullivan

So far as Albert College is concerned, I understand that it is related to University College.

Mr. Hughes

It is a university college.

Mr. M. O'Sullivan

In the case of the Botanic Gardens, contrary to a widely-held opinion, the administration of these gardens is the direct responsibility of the Minister for Agriculture.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is there not a separate Vote for that purpose?

Mr. M. O'Sullivan

I gathered from Deputy Hughes that he was coupling the two as not coming within this Vote.

Mr. Flanagan

What is the amount of the recoupment to be made to the Dublin County Committee of Agriculture in respect of their expenses?

Mr. Smith

The quantity of tea allocated to County Dublin was 1,100 lbs. and the amount consumed was 855 lbs. The quantity of sugar allocated was 8,800 lbs., and the quantity consumed 3,500 lbs.

Mr. Hughes

The balance was returned?

Mr. Smith

It was not purchased. The secretary of the county committee of agriculture was informed of the amount of his allocation by the Department and instructed to purchase, from whatever trader he might select, and pay for, whatever amount he required within that allocation. We are bringing in this Vote now to recoup that expenditure. In the case of County Dublin, the secretary was free to purchase 8,800 lbs. of sugar but he purchased only 3,500 lbs. In the case of tea, he was free to purchase 1,100 lbs. but he purchased only 855 lbs. Deputy Cogan referred to a number of matters which can be raised, as the Ceann Comhairle pointed out, on another occasion.

Question put and agreed to.