Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 19 Jun 1947

Vol. 106 No. 18

Committee on Finance. - Adjournment—Domestic Fuel Supplies.

Mr. Byrne

I asked the following question to-day:—

"To ask the Minister for Industry and Commerce if he will state his Department's proposals for the safeguarding of the fuel supplies for domestic purposes for the coming winter months; and if he can assure the public that the present rate of cutting of turf and timber is sufficient to meet the quantity required for the winter."

To that question, the Minister gave this reply:—

"Turf and timber production are affected by so many factors over which I have no control that I am quite unable to give the assurance which the Deputy desires. I have repeatedly emphasised that anyone who wishes to be fully assured of his winter requirements should take steps to produce the necessary turf on his own behalf."

I greatly fear that the Minister, like other members of the House, is in doubt as to what the coming winter holds for the people. I expressed my dissatisfaction with that reply to-day. It is not a reply which will set at rest the minds of the cottage dwellers of this city, the one-room dwellers, who have no means of getting their own supply other than by purchasing in very small quantities. The small means they have does not permit them to produce turf on their own behalf, and I think we are only asking common justice when we ask the Minister for an assurance that no stone is being left unturned by him to ensure that a proper fuel supply for domestic purposes will be made available during the coming months.

We earnestly hope we will never again see people standing in queues in hail, snow and rain, waiting to buy a couple of stones of turf or logs in the side streets of the city, and, at 11 o'clock or 12 o'clock on Saturday night, being turned away without the couple of stones of logs with which to cook the Sunday dinner—those of them who had dinners to cook. I have seen that taking place in the tenement quarters of this city. In Temple Lane and some of the side streets off Dorset Street and Corporation Street and over to Longford Street and York Street, I have seen people standing for hours in queues awaiting the arrival of a lorry to get two stones of wood.

Nobody will blame any individual for those emergency conditions, for the weather conditions which overtook us and which prevented fuel coming in in the normal way, but now the Government and the municipalities, the turf producers and the people have due warning. They know what they went through last year and the Government cannot say that they were not prepared if similar weather conditions overtake us next winter. We want the Government to be prepared, if such conditions recur next winter. We want them to bring in the necessary fuel and we do not want to be told that the lorries cannot be taken off the transport of beet and wheat. We must ask ourselves which is more important—wheat and beet or fuel supplies. While the going is good, while it is possible to use the available lorries which are not at present required for wheat or beet, I ask the Minister to relax some of the restrictions which prevent private lorry owners from bringing fuel to Dublin to add to the national pool, or from bringing fuel supplies to private individuals or institutions, so that the small consumer will not be competing later on against essential industries which may have no fuel to carry on their operations. If the Minister would relax these restrictions, as some Deputies said earlier to-day, it is possible that private owners would bring in supplies and thus ease the demand on the national pool.

The Minister may not be aware, but it was stated to-day as a fact, that people who gave their orders in April and May were told by the suppliers that the April and May ration was not available, that they would get their ration in June but that the April and May ration would have to be abandoned. I know what the answer to that will be. The Minister may say that they must have had enough in to keep them going in April and May and he does not intend to allow them to put the April or May ration towards future supplies. I put it to the Minister: Is it not worth while encouraging any person who tries to save some of his summer ration for the winter months? Surely such people should get some help. Surely the man living in a six-roomed house, with seven or eight children, who wants to get in his April, May or June supply is entitled to give his family all the comfort he can, as a result of saving, during the winter months? When winter comes, the mother of seven or eight children may have a sick child and may want to put a small fire in the bedroom, but the fuel may not be available. The position is that large families get the same ration as the single individual gets. The time has come for a reconsideration of the whole system of allocation.

I asked the Minister to-day to give us an idea of what is being done with regard to the American coal, and if the private consumer had any hope of getting a small supply. I could not get an assurance from the Minister on that point, and I asked if the Minister had considered getting coal from South Africa, from Johannesburg, Natal and other South African ports. Visitors to this House who come from South Africa will tell you that there is plenty of coal in South Africa. I know it may be said that the cost would be prohibitive but if subsidising ships in order to get coal from America and from Africa will safeguard the health of our people and save them from going through the hardships they went through last winter, if, for one year, we have to pay high prices for coal, I ask the Minister if the health of the people is not worth it. The position will not occur again. We hope it will ease. I would say to the Minister that if it is worth while spending big sums of money on tariffs to protect the health of our people and to keep our industries and railways going might he not also consider the question of putting some money into further investigation of our own coal mines in order to try to draw from them the coal which is said to be there? I know statements were made, so far as Irish coal is concerned, to the effect that the cost would be prohibitive, and that the mines are being worked so far as they economically can be worked. I say, however, that if economies could be thrown aside, just for one year until our normal suppliers are able to give us the coal, it would be worth while.

I will not delay the House much further. I do not want to be considered as unjustifiably criticising the fuel position but I have such memories —oh, such memories—as no doubt most of us here have. I shall never forget that midnight scene. I have seen queues of people in our working-class tenement quarters, and even in the better class well-to-do places trying to get supplies and, in many cases, having to do without them completely. Because of that I raise the question now and I ask the Minister to give us some assurance that so far as is in his power everything possible is being done to provide either wood logs or turf for our city domestic consumers. I would ask him if there is any hope of getting any of the American coal and also if he will try to get some coal from Africa. I would ask him, further, to spend a little extra money in order to draw from our coal mines that which we are told is there in plenty. I appeal to the Minister to give us some assurance that he will do everything possible in the matter. Finally, I would refer to the fact that Deputy Blowick asked the Minister to-day—following Deputy Dillon—if the Minister would consider easing the restrictions——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy should confine himself to the matter which is under discussion now.

Mr. Byrne

This is a supplementary in conjunction with——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy should keep to the subject under discussion.

Mr. Byrne

This is in connection with my own question. Deputy Blowick asked if the restrictions on lorries would be eased so as to allow extra coal to be added to the national pool. It is only a very small sideline but it may strengthen my argument. Therefore I appeal both to the Chair and to the Minister to allow me all the privileges possible to bring the matter to the Minister's attention.

Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. Lemass)

I think it is a good job that Deputy Alfred Byrne is not typical of the public representatives of this country.

Mr. Byrne

What do you say?

Mr. Lemass

I said that it is a good job that the Deputy is not typical of the public representatives of this country because, if he were, one could well despair of the possibility of ever getting any effort for a national purpose. His remarks seem to suggest that everything that has been said about the fuel situation this year was so much waste of breath.

Mr. Byrne

I do not think so.

Mr. Lemass

A dozen times in this House since the beginning of the year and more than a dozen times outside this House by public statements, through the medium of the Press, and of the radio, I have emphasised the fact that only a mighty effort by all sections of our people could produce enough fuel to avoid another fuel crisis next winter. Deputy Alfred Byrne asked for an assurance that there would be no scarcity this winter. Deputy Alfred Byrne is not quite as stupid as that request would seem to suggest. We know him well enough by now. He is taking out a political insurance. If there is enough timber or turf to avoid a fuel crisis next winter he can say it was because he got the Government to take action to that end. If, on the other hand, there is not, he has put himself in the position where he can blame the Government. The quantity of fuel that will be produced for the domestic ration next winter, either turf or timber, but particularly turf, depends upon a number of factors. First, the most important is the weather. It was the weather which caused our fuel crisis last year, and it is the weather which can produce a fuel crisis next winter. Nobody can give Deputy Alfred Byrne an assurance about the weather. The second important factor is the labour force available for the production of turf, and as a side issue to that question, the possibility of continuous work, uninterrupted by strikes. Subject to the weather remaining favourable and to the labour force being adequate we can produce enough turf to provide a reasonable ration during the winter. We must, however, recognise the fact that the weather up to this has not been favourable. We have had the latest season in memory. Normally the bulk of the turf required for the winter ration would already have been produced. The fact is that the production up to date has been much smaller than in any previous year, because of the weather. If we get very favourable weather for the next eight or nine weeks we can make good a large part of the deficiency. If we do not get that favourable weather we will not be able to do so, and no assurance I could give Deputy Byrne would be worth a rap if the general conditions are adverse.

Mr. Norton

Could the Minister give any indication, roughly, of the percentage that has been cut so far?

Mr. Lemass

I gave some figures here some weeks ago. I was going to say in relation to Deputy Alfred Byrne's contemptuous reference to my advice to people to cut turf that, so far as the citizens of Dublin are concerned, all the indications are that they will cut for their own use in their own households, in accordance with the regulations, much more than double the quantity cut last year. So far as industrial users of fuel and institutions requiring exceptional quantities of fuel are concerned it also appears that, acting in accordance with the regulations, more than double that produced last year will be produced. The general production of turf is, however, down. That, by itself, is not yet a serious predicament provided that conditions are such that a continued effort during the next few weeks will get maximum results. Even if it were possible for me to give an assurance on the lines which Deputy Alfred Byrne seeks surely this would be the worst possible time to ask for it. If I were to say: "Yes, our fuel supply for next winter is safe," would it not take from the incentive there is now to every public authority and everybody concerned with fuel production to make the maximum effort? However, I am not avoiding giving the assurance merely because of the bad effect it would have on the totality of our production. I am not doing that. In fact, the quantity of fuel produced to date is less than this time last year and unless there is a considerable improvement in the next few weeks we are going to have a difficult fuel position next winter. We may be able to avoid some of the abnormal difficulties of last winter which were due to the exceptionally prolonged period under which turf dumps and timber were covered by snow and ice. It is reasonable to hope that we will have a better winter than last winter but nevertheless the total amount of fuel available to us will be inadequate to do more than provide the minimum ration. We came into last winter with reserve stocks carried over from the previous year. We have no reserve stocks now and there will be available this winter only the turf produced now. I cannot understand Deputy Alfred Byrne at all in his references to turf transport. As far as I can understand him he appears to think it desirable that we should allow wealthy people now to buy turf by the load—turf which would otherwise go into the dumps and be available next winter for the poor people. That is the only sense which the suggestion makes.

We refuse to allow people to bring turf out of the turf area to this area except they produce it by their own efforts or by the assistance of labour brought in from non-turf areas or recruited in special districts where there is a surplus of labour. Under any other circumstances turf that would be purchased by private individuals now is turf that would otherwise go into the pool and be available for rationing, and I am not going to allow the pool to be depleted for the benefit of individuals by allowing them to bring in loads of turf at present.

Mr. Byrne

I did not suggest that.

Mr. Lemass

That was the Deputy's suggestion.

Mr. Byrne

I asked the Minister to remove the restrictions on private lorries.

Mr. Lemass

So far as the transport of turf by lorry is concerned, the only difficulty is that the turf is not there to be transported. There are a lot of foolish lorry owners engaged in what they think is a strike. Let me tell them that the only reason they are not being employed is that there is insufficient turf to be transported. When there is turf to be transported, every one of them can make an arrangement to ensure the employment of his lorry in its transportation. There are no reasons arising out of any official restrictions which will limit the amount of lorry transport available for the haulage of turf.

We gave special petrol allowances and made special regulations under the Transport Acts which permitted private lorries to be used in the transport of wood fuel up to the present. We withdrew these allowances and cancelled these regulations so that lorry owners would not be induced to employ their lorries upon the transportation of wood fuel when turf is available for transport and so that there will be no inducement to men who should be engaged on the production of turf to engage instead in the production of timber fuel. We reckon that one man during the present season can produce three times as much turf fuel as he can wood fuel. Later in the year it may be necessary to make special arrangements in relation to wood fuel; but for the present concentration both in production and transport is on turf. In the course of the next few weeks we hope to see turf move in in considerable quantity; but the continuation of the production of turf in adequate quantities is dependent, as I said in reply to the Deputy's question, on factors outside my control.

To be quite clear, however, on the specific point the Deputy raised, I can give no assurance whatsoever that there will be an adequacy of turf and wood fuel next winter. There will be sufficient if we are lucky, if we have good weather for the next couple of months and a sufficient effort made by all the authorities responsible for turf production. If we do not get good weather and we do not get a sufficient effort we will have another period of fuel difficulty next winter. I shall try to minimise that difficulty by a more rigid type of rationing which will ensure an equitable distribution of available supplies to all households and avoid any possibility of leakage of supplies from the national pool into quarters where it should not go; but our prospect of getting through the winter without any crisis will be settled in the next few weeks in relation to factors which are unforeseeable and as to which no assurance can be given.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.25 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Friday, 20th June.