I am suggesting that that is the reason why the Minister is desirous that a buyer should come along. He might not be half as anxious to sell if it was profitable. We are asked to provide a very substantial sum for the exploration and development of minerals. I understand from what the Minister said that exploration will be directed to minerals other than coal; that there will not be very much further exploration so far as coal is concerned. In the Minister's opinion they have sufficient information as to that in the Department. Even this big sum of £595,000, if it were definitely going to determine what our mineral resources are, would provide very valuable information. So far as coal resources are concerned, quite a lot of people, even people in this House, believe that we have very substantial coal resources. This might possibly explode that. At all events, it would give us the information that is necessary as to what extent it is a commercial proposition, what are the possibilities of development of other mineral resources which are obviously there. It is a very substantial sum and will be expended over a period of seven years in instalments of £85,000 per annum. We have no objection to that.
So far as the whole problem that is presented to the House is concerned, the Minister certainly cannot be congratulated on it or even on the manner in which it has been presented. We are asked to provide moneys to write off a deficit of £414,000. So far as that deficit is concerned, it is a complete muddle. We are given no information. As a matter of fact, this is scarcely the place to examine how much has been lost by the company in Slievardagh and in its activities in phosphate development in Clare, and pyrites development in Wicklow. Surely in expending public moneys, particularly where losses of this sort are incurred, there ought to be some precise information and there ought to be other machinery for examining that. It is true that when we discussed this matter before the Minister informed us that the accounts of this company were not submitted to the Committee of Public Accounts and that there was no statutory responsibility for doing so. So far as accounting for public moneys to this Parliament, which voted the public moneys in this matter, is concerned, we are completely in the dark. We have to accept the information which the Minister has given the House that £414,000 has been expended to little or no purpose. The Minister has told us that we got 64,000 tons of coal from Slievardagh. That was a very low output indeed. If we had some costings—and I presume that some costings are available—the Minister might be able to tell us at least what it cost per ton to raise the 64,000 tons and what the actual loss incurred in the production of the 64,000 tons was.
With regard to the production of phosphates and of pyrites in Wicklow, I feel that the whole method of financing these projects was completely wrong and that Parliament should disapprove of it. If, in the emergency in which we found ourselves, it was essential to work the phosphate deposit in Clare—from a purely agricultural point of view a deposit which was not of good quality, not being very soluble—and pyrites in Wicklow, and to provide the finished article at a certain price to the agricultural community, I feel that the phosphate should have been paid for at what it cost and that the subsidy should have been fed in at a particular point. If that had been done, we would know exactly where we stood, but the way the money has been pumped into this company and the muddle that has been made of it makes it impossible for any man, no matter how able an accountant, to disentangle the financial muddle which has been created as a result. It is this sort of State organisation which the Vocational Commission so emphatically condemned—the nominal company, the shares held by the Minister for Finance, with a nominal board of directors. The Minister might tell us later the personnel of the board of directors, but the whole system gives rise to the sort of operations and method of financing of projects of this kind that the Minister has described to the House.
As a matter of fact, when we discussed this matter last, on 25th January, 1945, the Minister asked us for a further financial provision for Slievardagh and said, at column 1706, volume 95:—
"The mechanisation of production at the mines will, of course, involve further capital expenditure but it should enable coal production to be continued on an economic basis after the war."
The Minister certainly was optimistic at that time and his information does not appear to have been correct. So far as the reputable firm of engineers the Minister told us about are concerned, their advice does not seem to have been very sound, because the development, from a purely business point of view, has been most unfavourable and the condition of the seams, so far as I understand, down in Slievardagh is most unfavourable. They are tilted over very much—standing almost perpendicular in some cases—which makes for a condition in which it is almost impossible to work the seams at an economic price. It is only because of the acute shortage of fuel that it is worth while to continue working at all, and, although it has been so unprofitable to work it up to the present, the Minister asks the House to throw another £50,000 into the melting-pot. If, at the end of the period, there is nobody in the market for a coal mine, what will happen? Will we close it down? What output does the Minister expect to get as a result of the further £50,000 and what will it cost per ton? These are very pertinent questions which must be considered.
In view of the report which the consulting engineers gave the Minister's Department, the optimism of the Minister the last time we discussed this matter and the very low output from this mine, the situation is extraordinary, because I am aware, as the Minister is aware, that none of the companies engaged in any mining which is taking place in the country of a private enterprise type have experienced the same difficulty. At least, they are making it pay because they are continuing to work and they are not so philanthropic as to work at a loss. All the private companies operating are able to make coal mining a success, but here we have a quasi-State company, under a nominal board of directors, into which money has been poured by the Dáil to the tune of £414,000— practically half a million pounds—and they cannot make a success of it, although they have the services of an expert, reputable firm of mining engineers from Great Britain to advise them and all the resources of the State behind them to enable them to buy whatever equipment is necessary and available.
We have a situation in which 64,000 tons of coal were produced and the Minister is still optimistic enough to ask the House to vote a further £50,000. It certainly does not speak well for the policy of setting up companies of this sort and I would not be so optimistic as the Minister is as to hope that there will be any private enterprise in the market for a particular mine. I venture to prophesy that we will spend another £50,000 and eventually close it down.
With regard to the further activities of the company, Mianraí Teoranta, the Minister told us that these operations are confined to exploration and development and that they cannot work out beyond that. Suppose that, having developed a mine, it goes on the market and you do not get any private enterprise to take it up. What are you going to do about it, if the activities of the company are to be limited to exploration and development? You will not close down, surely, until some private company comes along in two, three or four years time? So far as those provisions are concerned, I think the Minister will have to widen them a little. It would scarcely be wise, if the company struck oil, to limit the company's activities, if there was no private enterprise in the market for the mine. There is a provision for recovering the cost in the event of the sale of the project to private enterprise. That is a proper provision, but it is not wise to confine the company's activities merely to exploration and development, because that may create a further problem, adding to the many problems the Minister has to face in this matter.
I want to conclude by saying most emphatically that I wish to condemn the whole method of financing projects of this sort and especially the policy of asking the House to accept that sort of explanation with regard to the expenditure of a very considerable sum of public money. The Minister, when he was questioned, was not able to apportion the losses and we have been told that, so far as the certificate of the Minister for Finance is concerned, when it comes to valuing the assets of the company, that they will not be apportioned. That is not a businesslike way of handling this matter. It is not fair to ask the House to agree to meet a deficit of £414,000 and at the same time not give the proper details.
I think the House should set up a special commission to examine this matter and to see how that money is being expended. The House should satisfy itself that the money is being properly expended. There is in existence a Committee of Public Accounts and the normal procedure of a Parliament—it is the procedure of the British Parliament—is always to insist that every shilling voted is properly accounted for. Here we have certain sums voted by the House and I do not think I am unreasonable when I suggest that there was no attempt made by the Minister to account for the losses involved. We should not be prepared to agree to that.
So far as the financial provisions for further activities by the company are concerned, it seems very doubtful whether, on the company's record, it should be entrusted with such work. I hope the Minister will give the names of those who are on the board of directors.
The Minister has given an estimate of the coal resources in that particular end of the Leinster coalfield. The estimate is 5,500,000 tons. Of that quantity, only 65,000 tons have been mined. There is fairly accurate information in the Department and I should like the Minister to give the estimate of the quantity of coal in the entire Leinster coalfield.
