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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 26 May 1948

Vol. 110 No. 16

Vote 52—Lands.

I move:—

That a sum not exceeding £765,609 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending the 31st day of March, 1949, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Offices of the Minister for Lands and of the Irish Land Commission (44 & 45 Vict., c. 49, sec. 46, and c. 71, sec. 4; 48 & 49 Vict., c. 73, secs. 17, 18 and 20; 54 & 55 Vict., c. 48; 3 Edw. 7, c. 37; 7 Edw. 7, c. 38 and c. 56; 9 Edw. 7, c. 42; Nos. 27 and 42 of 1923; No. 25 of 1925; No. 11 of 1926; No. 19 of 1927; No. 31 of 1929; No. 11 of 1931; Nos. 33 and 38 of 1933; No. 11 of 1934; No. 41 of 1936; No. 26 of 1939; and No. 12 of 1946).

Contrary to the opinion of many the work of the Department of Lands in this country is of the utmost importance. The Irish Land Commission of to-day is the successor of the Congested Districts Board, the Irish Land Commission and the Estates Commissioners which were established under British occupation in this country to deal with the question of congestion and the granting of ownership of the farm to the farmer. Since our own Government was set up here that work has gone on sometimes slowly, sometimes accelerated but, nevertheless, aiming at one goal. That goal was, and is to-day, the relieving of congestion, the raising of uneconomic holdings to economic standard, and the placing of as many people as economically possible on the land and making each man complete owner of his own holding.

Despite the activity of my Department for the last 26 years there still remains an evil in our midst which has to be eradicated. I am referring to the congested areas, that lie particularly along the western seaboard, from Donegal to Kerry. That does not say that pockets of congestion do not exist in a great many inland and eastern counties besides. I want to bring to the notice of the House that it is the policy of the present Government to place in first priority the ending of congestion and the raising of uneconomic holdings to economic level.

When I took office on the 18th February last, I found that owing to a "close-down Order" on the acquisition of land in the midland and eastern areas where the Land Commission must look to form a reservoir of land out of which they can come to the relief of the classes I have mentioned, there was no land on hands. Since this restriction Order was imposed the amount of land then on hands gradually disappeared in the form of migrants' holdings, allotments, etc., and to-day there is none on hands worth mentioning. Shortly after I took office, with the permission of the Government, I removed these restrictions and my Department is now forging ahead with the work of acquiring land for our statutory purposes. The problem of acquiring land is slow. Each particular case, whether acquisition or resumption, must be examined carefully by the commissioners and before a decision is reached they must be thoroughly satisfied that no injustice is being done to the person from whom the land is being acquired or resumed or that the Constitution is being violated.

Once land is acquired it is not always an easy matter to prepare a suitable scheme of either giving the land to allottees in the form of additions to their present holdings or blocking out a farm into complete holdings equipped with fences, gates, dwelling-houses and out-offices, suitable for a migrant. Building materials are still in short supply but I am looking to the Minister for Industry and Commerce to come to my assistance in this matter.

Now, I will turn to another aspect of our duty—the user of land allotted as new holdings or additions to existing holdings. As I pointed out to Deputy Ormonde in reply to a Parliamentary Question on the 25th instant, those who have been allotted holdings by the Land Commission and who have not used them according to the terms of their agreement will receive short shrift at my hands. In the congested areas there are thousands of small farmers trying to eke out an existence on perhaps three or four acres of wretched land, sometimes reclaimed from the moor, who would gladly use such lands if they were given a chance to do so. I have the greatest contempt for the spirit of the person who was allotted a holding of land fully equipped with nice dwelling-house and out-office, fences, etc., and who did not think it worth his while to work the land as he was expected to do because he gave his signature to do that when signing the agreement with the Land Commission. I might say here at this stage that it has never come to my notice that a small farmer who surrendered a holding in a congested area and who was granted a migrant's holding has ever used his land badly. This is a pointer to the commissioners as to where they should seek for the best type of person to whom a holding should be allotted.

Now I do not want my attitude towards the above type to be confused with my attitude towards a different problem of user of land—that is, the person who got an addition to his existing small holding. In such a case I hold that it is the holding that got the addition rather than the farmer and, for that reason, should not be separated from it, and while it is deplorable that additions should not be worked according to the terms of the agreement I realise fully that in many cases those who have been granted additions through some unforeseen circumstances may have to sublet the additions. It is the aim of the Land Commission to raise uneconmic holdings to an economic standard by way of additions and it is quite obvious that the taking back of that addition creates two problems at once. The first is, who is to get the addition, and, secondly, a new uneconomic holding has been created thereby.

Many Deputies are, I presume, anxiously awaiting a statement on policy from me. It might be summed up in a few words—that congestion is an evil which we must at all costs try to eliminate and to which I intend to devote all my energy during my term of office. Side by side with that—the twin brother of congestion—is the question of the small uneconomic holdings. These two questions go hand-in-hand and will receive first priority in the future. Some people regard the Land Commission as an all-devouring monster going around seeking farms they can devour.

Such is not the case. I know quite well that almost all farmers do not like to give up their land but, at the same time, we do not acquire without giving compensation according to the law laid down here in this House. In order to relieve congestion we must acquire land somewhere and, naturally, we have to look to the big farms to do so. We will also acquire or resume small holdings if they become non-residential in areas where the general run of holdings is small and needs enlarging. It is not the intention to resume or acquire holdings that may be non-residential at the moment through the owner having to seek employment elsewhere temporarily because of the poverty imposed on him by the smallness of such holding.

With regard to the Estimate itself, the provision for travelling expenses is increased by £1,000 in view of increases in bus and rail fares and in the rates of subsistence and mileage allowances and also in anticipation of the filling, during the year, of some of the vacancies on the inspectorate and survey staffs.

Last year's Estimate under sub-head I proved to be in excess of requirements. It is difficult at the best of times to forecast what the Land Commission may be in a position to spend on estate improvement works in the year ahead. In present conditions, with building activities still restricted by the shortage and increased cost of materials, it is particularly hard to say in advance what the requirements will be under this head. The reopening of land acquisition activities within the congested districts counties will, from now onwards, be reflected both in the amounts required for the purchase of tenants' interests in holdings resumed by the Land Commission on Congested Districts Board estates and in the expenditure on estate improvements. It is to be expected that last year's expenditure, which amounted to £222,871, will be exceeded during the coming 12 months. The Estimate is, therefore, repeated at last year's figure of £254,800.

Such changes as appear on the remaining sub-heads hardly call for particular comment. The most noticeable is that under sub-head N, in which there is a reduction of £3,250 in the amount sought for advances to provide funds for the maintenance of embankments. Requirements under this sub-head are liable to vary from year to year, and the sharp decrease this year is explained by the fact that exceptional provision was included last year for particular works then under consideration.

With regard to the general work of the Land Commission during the past year, there are very creditable achievements to report in the important fields of post-division and tenanted-land work. The Land Commission have been concentrating their efforts on the accumulation of arrears arising out of the uncompleted division work of past years, and on the tenanted land estates. Last year's work has achieved a record output of 16,354 holdings and allotments revested in the tenants and allottees compared with the output of 10,192 vestings during the previous year. This represents satisfactory progress, but it still leaves arrears of some 58,000 holdings of tenanted land awaiting revesting in the tenants as well as some 37,000 parcels of untenanted land yet to be vested in the allottees. The clearing off of these arrears constitutes an essential task for the immediate future.

With regard to the unvested parcels of untenanted land, the allottees who have made good, and have faithfully observed the conditions of their agreements, are entitled to be finally established on their parcels within a reasonable time and these cases should be cleared out of the way before the resumption of land division operations adds too heavily to their number.

Of the unvested tenanted-land holdings a very big proportion, including some 15,000 holdings on estates of the former Congested Districts Board, will require enlargement, rearrangement or improvement in some way such as housing, drainage, fencing and road accommodation. While these holdings and parcels remain on hands they involve the Land Commission in problems and responsibilities and draw upon the Department a mass of correspondence which has the effect of seriously retarding productive effort. The situation can be relieved only by final vesting and it is my intention to see that the vesting drive is vigorously pursued so as to secure that the pressing burden of arrears is substantially reduced in as short a time as possible.

Conditions in the congested areas, and particularly on the old unsold estates of the Congested Districts Board to which I have already referred, set the Land Commission its most important task in the sphere of land settlement. My personal knowledge of the appalling conditions still prevalent in many parts of the West leaves me in no doubt as to the shape which our future land settlement programme should assume. It must have for its primary object the relief of congestion wherever it exists, but chiefly in those districts in the West where the necessity is the greatest. This work for the relief of congestion has, in the past, suffered too many delays and interruptions. It depends, of course, on the acquisition of suitable land in sufficient quantities as well as on an adequate supply of building materials, and the most recent hold-up of the war years has led to a progressive decline in the acreages acquired and divided each year. The year just closed has resulted in the division of some 13,500 acres. The area acquired during the year was 9,741 acres.

Investigations should, from now onwards, begin to show a return in the shape of completed acquisitions of land in the congested districts counties, particularly as a legal difficulty which existed for some time in relation to the resumption of land by the Land Commission has been removed. But the lands available in the congested districts themselves are quite insufficient for the needs of the situation. If a serious contribution is to be made to a solution of the problem, such lands as can be acquired outside the congested areas will have to be utilised to the maximum extent for the accommodation of migrants. The position arising from the continued hold-up of land acquisition outside the scheduled congested districts has been under consideration by the Government and they are satisfied that the extent and urgency of the congestion problem demand that there should be a further relaxation of restrictions. It has been decided that the Land Commission shall from now on be free to proceed with the acquisition of land which can be used entirely or almost entirely for the relief of congestion by migration or for the relief of local congestion.

This does not mean that lands are going to become available for division immediately. Land acquisition cannot be made a rapid process. The Government's decision, however, does mean that the way will be cleared for further progress to land settlement.

In conclusion, I ask the assistance and cordial co-operation of all Deputies, no matter to what Party they belong, and I am particularly addressing this to the Opposition, as my work can be severely hampered by Deputies who may wish to score over their colleagues in their constituencies. As I have already said, my Department has a big job of work in front of it and it is only by the greatest co-operation from all Deputies that we will succeed in eliminating the evil of congestion and small uneconomic holdings which has been handed down to us as a loathsome legacy from the dark days of our history and to remedy which some of our bravest men in the past, foremost amongst them Michael Davitt, of my own county, have given their lives.

I was very interested in the concluding remarks of the Minister for Lands when he sought the co-operation of all Parties in helping him to solve this problem. It just reminded me of the old proverb that often the best advice came from the greatest offender. I have not got up here to waste the time of the House or of the Minister reminding him of the statements he made as a member of the Opposition, criticising his predecessors and the Land Commission in general.

I was very glad to hear him stating that the relief of congestion is his primary objective and the main plank in his policy. It would be strange, of course, if it were otherwise in view of the fact, about which I am sure everyone is satisfied, that the primary aim of all Land Acts from 1903 to 1939 was to relieve congestion. A great deal of good and useful work was done in that connection, but a great deal yet remains to be done.

I stated here last year and in previous years that while congestion may be relieved to a considerable extent, so far as the problem in the West of Ireland is concerned it is never going to be solved by land division alone. It would be quite impossible to do so. I do not intend to remind the Minister of any of his statements in the past and anything I have to say on this Vote will be as helpful as I can make it.

I am very interested, and have always been, in land acquisition and division. Like the Minister for Lands and numerous others in the West of Ireland, I live amongst people who were crushed by landlordism and whose economic conditions, previous to the Land Acts and subsequent to them until relief was brought were, to describe it mildly, nothing short of shocking and intolerable. I remember when unfortunate people living on four or five acres of land had to work all the year round for the local landlord before they would get their wages, which were very small indeed—7/- or 8/- a week, and not for a 48-hour week either but in most cases for a 60-hour week—their rent was deducted and their wages not paid until it was deducted. Considerable relief was given in that way by the old Congested Districts Board, which did great work. When this State was established, the Congested Districts Board and the Estates Commissioners, as they were then called, were merged into one body known as the Land Commission. I always considered that that was a mistake and that the Congested Districts Board should have been left to deal with the congestion problem, to take all matters regarding congestion into consideration and to be given a free hand to relieve it by means other than land division. I would like the present Minister to consider the establishment of some body on similar lines, even within the Land Commission; to have a certain number of the Land Commission personnel who understand the problem; a certain number of officials of the Department of Industry and Commerce, the Department of Agriculture and of the Department of Fisheries, to come together and try to hammer out what would prove to be the real solution of the congestion problem in the West of Ireland, because unless industries are established in the towns in close proximity to where the congestion is nothing can be done.

The very fact of removing what to my mind would be only a handful of the congests to the Midlands and the East would not at all solve the problem. It would still be fairly acute. Unless something is done about the decentralisation of industry, no matter what decision the Minister and his Department make, I feel that in 25 years from now or perhaps less there will be a much greater flight from the land than there has been during any previous period, by reason of the fact that the generation growing up now is looking forward, and rightly so, to much better conditions. When you take out a number of people and set about rearranging the holdings, the most anyone could do for the people left behind is to give them holdings of about 15 acres or at most 20 acres of land that could not be regarded as of being superior quality. I do not believe that they will be content to remain on holdings of that kind unless they have quite near them some industry that will absorb a great many members of the family. You want to have both the land and industries to maintain the standard of living which they would like to have, as otherwise believe they should have, as otherwise they would seek it in other parts of the country and in other parts of the world.

The Minister is not very long in office but I am sure that he is sufficiently long there to have ascertained from his Department what is the approximate area of land available for acquisition in the whole Twenty-Six Counties for the relief of congestion. It may be a difficult question for him to answer, but certainly a Department that is established for 45 years should be able, I think, to give him that information. I am sure that they can get him information as to the number of congests and I would like to know what is the definition of a congest. In certain parts of the West a congest is defined as a person whose valuation is under £10 while in other parts of the West a congest is defined as a person with under £15 valuation. The Minister is nodding his head; perhaps he is disagreeing with what I am saying, but that is my belief and understanding of it.

In certain parts of the West of Ireland, if an estate becomes available, any person who has a valuation of over £10 is not considered. In the eastern portion of Galway the standard is raised to £15 and I believe that the same thing applies to Meath, Westmeath and the Midlands. I do not think that there should be such discrimination at all. I know very well the difficulty there is when an estate is acquired where congestion is. The duty of the inspector preparing the scheme is to take all the tenants for about a mile radius and to try to bring them to the same standard of valuation. Often he has to keep below £10 valuation and often £5 valuation. I think that it should be the same for the entire country. There should be no £10 level for one part of Ireland and £15 or £20 for another. I think that they should all be taken on the same plane because, after all, in many instances the valuation is not the real criterion of an economic or an uneconomic holding. In parts of my county—and I am sure that the same is true in the Minister's own County of Mayo—land is very highly valued, as highly as £2 an acre, but a very small part of the holdings could be regarded as economic. This is in spite of the fact, strange as it may seem, that it is impossible to plough this land even with a steam engine as it is rock almost to the very surface. In other parts of the country there are very small valuations for very fine land. Perhaps it was because that land was reclaimed and its condition when it was being valued 100 years ago was very poor and that by work and reclamation it has been brought up to its present standard. Consequently, I think that the inspectors should not take valuations at all times as being the true indication of an economic or an uneconomic holding. Instead of taking the figures before him it would not be too much to ask him to inspect the holding; it is very seldom that they do that.

I was asking the Minister if he had information as to the amount of land available for acquisition and also the number of congests. If he has, has there been any period of time estimated for the acquisition and division of land? I have heard Ministers of previous Governments giving a certain period within which the job would be completed. But, having proceeded to do the work, they found it was not possible to do it in the prescribed limit of time. The amount of land available for acquisition now is very considerably contracted. Therefore it should be somewhat simpler to estimate the period of time. I have heard it stated, not authoritatively, that the Land Commission think that land division could not be completed inside the next 50 years. I hope the Minister anyhow will gather his officials round the conference table and see that that is accelerated anyhow, because the sooner we have this problem settled finally the better.

When times are normal, I cannot understand why it should take any longer than at most ten years to solve the problem. When I say ten years, I think I am not setting any impossible task before the present Minister or any other Minister. We are 43 years at it now. Undoubtedly a lot of fine work has been done but for what remains I think ten years should be the longest period and that it should be completed within that time. I think the Minister should set a target for his Department as to the number of acres to be acquired and distributed each year.

I was also glad to hear the Minister state that it is proposed to continue the migration scheme from the congested areas to areas where land is available. I expect that he will continue it on similar lines, if not on improved lines, to those initiated by Fianna Fáil. I expect that it is proposed to continue the assistance to migrants by way of grants for cropping, stocking and equipping their holdings. I hope there will not be any economy practised in that connection.

I should also like to ascertain from the Minister what is to be the policy of the Land Commission in regard to employees on estates that will be acquired. Will the Minister continue the same policy—that they should get first preference in regard to holdings? There is a difference of opinion as to whether or not that should be the case. I hold that people who have been in permanent employment on estates over a considerable number of years are entitled to first preference because they are being deprived of their livelihood. It is all very well to say: "Why not give them some cash compensation?" I think the easiest way to compensate them is to give them a holding of land. If, at a later stage, they feel that they are incapable of working it, unlike in other cases, there should be no restriction placed on their selling the holding to some other person approved of by the Land Commission. In the case of people who fail to make good, I think that would be the easiest and the best form of compensation.

Will the Deputy say "why"?

Because otherwise it will be very difficult to arrive at what would be a satisfactory sum for compensation.

Why should there be a line of demarcation drawn between a person like that who gets a holding on an estate and a migrant, let us say, who gets a holding?

In many instances, the migrant who gets a holding is a person who has been accustomed to the working of land. He need not migrate if he does not wish. He will not be forced to do it. The allottee has no option or alternative. That is what I am advancing as a reason and I think the Minister will see the justification of it —that they are not in the same category; that they are on quite a different basis altogether. I heard the previous Minister say that in many instances these people were failures. Admittedly, a number of them were. I have known some employees myself who were failures when they were given a holding. But, of course, they had no capital going into the holding and that was their great difficulty. They were kept on there and were not permitted to sell the holding and the holding continued in a half-worked or half-derelict condition. I expect that was one of the reasons for the passing of the 1946 Land Act. If they were permitted to sell their holdings to people approved of by the Land Commission, I expect it would have helped to solve that problem much more easily and effectively.

A good deal of discussion has taken place here from time to time about the size of holdings. It was argued, I think quite rightly, that a number of the holdings allotted were too small. In my opinion, a holding of 22 or 23 statute acres is insufficient for any person to make a living on it. Of course, a good deal depends on the locality. A holding of 23 statute acres convenient to a good market town, if it were properly worked as a kind of market garden, would perhaps be fairly economic. But, when you go out three, four or five miles into the country, a 23 statute acre holding leaves a person in the position that he is neither a labourer nor a farmer. I believe that a holding of anything less than 40 statute acres is not capable of giving a fairly decent livelihood to the occupier, no matter how intensively he tries to work it. I am sure the Minister understands that and that he would not feel very content to try to eke out an existence or livelihood on a holding of 23 or 25 statute acres.

As regards giving assistance to allottees, I should also like to take that point up with the Minister. Under the previous régime, when houses were being built in the West of Ireland people generally got about £200 and, in come cases, £240 to build a house and out-offices. At that time, of course, materials and labour were very much cheaper than they are at present. I am asking the Minister if it is his policy to increase the assistance in proportion to the increased cost of building. A grant of £200 now, or even one of £250, is not at all sufficient. It is barely half enough to erect a house and out-offices. I do not think it would be possible to get a dwelling-house and out-offices built for £500 now—as good a house and out-offices as were built for £250 previously.

There is another snag that was always there with the Land Commission, namely, that in a number of case they gave a full free grant, while in other cases they gave a certain portion of the assistance by way of a grant and the remainder by way of an advance. I never could see any justification for that differentiation at all. I always thought that, when one person was entitled to the full amount by way of a grant, there was no reason why his neighbour should have to pay interest on an advance and be denied the same right as the other. The Land Commission will answer that by saying that the holding can afford to bear the advance. I think it would have been much better and much more satisfactory if, instead of doing it that way, they placed a rent or an annuity on the holding at the outset that would enable them to give all the building assistance by way of a grant instead of having it segregated in that way, because that method caused nothing but the greatest dissatisfaction.

There is another matter. It has been the policy of the Land Commission to make advances available to persons getting building grants from the Department of Local Government. The maximum advance was £80, or ten times the unrevised annuity, whichever was the lesser. I think that now, with the increase in the value of land, the £80 advance should be increased to £140. Even with the £235 from the Department of Local Government to build a house, it would take at least the additional £140 to build a decent dwelling-house. It may be argued, of course, that the farmers are well off and that they have several million pounds in the banks and all the rest of it, but that is not a matter, of course, to be discussed on this Estimate. I would like to hear it debated, because Deputy Corry has stated here on several occasions that, whatever money is on deposit in the banks, it took a great many people to earn it, and that if it was divided over them it would be found that the amount per head would bring the total down to a pretty small sum and make it look very insignificant. I would like the Minister to consider that—I am sure he knows quite enough about it— and have the advances increased.

Now as regards houses and out-offices, good houses and good out-offices were built by the Land Commission and by the Congested Districts Board. They were good, of course, considering the period in which they were built and were suitable enough then. They represented a big advance on what the people had been accustomed to, but we have become more modern in every respect and we now hear a lot about the proper lay-out of a dwelling-house and out-offices. The houses and out-offices that were built ten, 20 or 30 years ago are, in my opinion, not up to the required standard at the present time. I think a great deal more care should be taken in the planning and lay-out of houses and out-offices so as to bring them as near as possible to what the Department of Agriculture would consider to be a proper residence and out-offices for a farmer.

We have the same figure in the Estimates this year as we had last year for the improvement of estates and for the acquisition or resumption of land. If the Minister comes in here at any time with a Supplementary Estimate for the acquisition or resumption of land or the improvement of estates, I can assure him that he will have my full cooperation and support in doing so. When work on the improvement of estates was carried out, in many instances a good deal was left undone. It was a source of torment to every Deputy to find that when certain improvements were carried out and when certain estimates were set aside for doing the work that when the money allocated was expended, the estate was left just about three-quarters finished. I think there should be nothing like that in future. No matter what length of time it takes to do the job properly, it should be finished and completed.

The Minister also mentioned something about the vesting of holdings. It was a happy knack in many instances with the Land Commission in the past to vest a holding that had not been properly improved in order to put the tenant out of bounds so that he would have no further claim on them for having the proper and necessary improvements carried out. I hope that state of affairs will not be continued. Take road making, for instance. In the preparation of schemes for the allocation of estates, the inspector goes in and drafts out his scheme. He outline a road from one public road in perhaps halfway on the estate. He then goes to the other public road and brings in the road so far, but the road on the estate is left unconnected, with the result that if the residents on it want to have it taken over by the county council they find that the fact that it is an unconnected road is the big snag. In the carrying out of such work, if you go to the Land Commission and ask them to have the road run right through they will tell you that they will not go to that expense: that the roads that they are making are suitable for Land Commission purposes. I think that is not the proper way to look at it. I think they should make the road through and through and not be putting the county council to the trouble perhaps at a later stage of having to acquire land compulsorily in order to connect what, in many instances, might be a very important road.

The improvement of bogs is another matter which I wish to bring under the Minister's notice. For a period I suppose of 40 years, the Estates Commissioners, the Congested Districts Board and the Land Commission, since it came into existence, have taken over bogs but they have never carried out any proper improvement works on them. They have just lock-spitted the allotments but no drainage has been carried out. They lock-spitted the roads through the bog but they never made them and yet they expect people to go there, open up turbary and carry on turf production. Many of the bogs are there undeveloped and uncut. I imagine that that was one of the things which the Land Commission could have been doing during the emergency. I mentioned it in previous debates on this Vote, that they could direct their attention to doing work that they had left unattended and neglected, very useful work, in bringing bogs up to a better state of development to enable people to cut turf on the allotments for which they are paying annuities. In other parts of the country you have cases where they divided large estates and promised the tenants, even some of the migrants brought very long distances, that they would provide them with turbary allotments. Although the turbary is there quite convenient to them, nothing has been done to provide these people with the allotments they require for their domestic fuel supply.

The Minister mentioned in the course of his opening statement that when he took over office the Land Commission had no lands on hands with which to proceed.

I did not say they had no land.

You said they had nothing worth while.

That is what I said.

I do not know if the Minister can do anything about it but I do know that for a number of years they had been negotiating for the purchase of land and its acquisition and, while they could put forward the excuse that there was a close-down Order during the emergency, I understand that, as far as the West is concerned, that close-down Order was removed a considerable time before the present Minister took office.

That is true, in some of the western counties.

I cannot understand the delay in coming to a decision. I have a number of cases here of estates where acquisition proceedings took place and still, seemingly, no decision has been given. I have the estate of Mrs. H. Howard, the lands of Abbeygormian, Record No. S8982, County Galway, where the objection to acquisition was heard in October, 1947. That is eight months ago. I imagine in that case the Land Commission should be in a position to have the decision announced. I have another case on the Daly estate, Record No. S3736, the holding of Helena and James Glynn.

The objection against the resumption of one holding was heard in 1941 and the objection in the other case was heard in June, 1947. The decision was reserved and nothing has been heard of it since. I think that is an unduly long time to take to come to a decision. There are a number of other cases which I can quote. There is a holding on the very same estate, the Daly estate, the holding of F. and W. Burke. These people have been waiting for the land for 22 years. Their landlord's estate was divided in 1926 and they were told that this land would be taken over immediately and that they would get it. They are both residents of the village of Curragh, between Kilconnell and Ballymacward. Proceedings in that case were taken, the case was heard and the objection was overruled away back in 1941. I cannot understand why a decision has not been given in that case and something done by way of redeeming the promises made to those people at that time. I presume that the decision was reserved or postponed, since this close-down Order was revoked, because of the decision pending in what was known as the Fisher case.

Then there were the lands of Eyrecourt Demesne. The objection was heard also in October and the decision was reserved. There is also the case of the estate of Miss Ethel Dillon, Clonbrock Demesne, containing 434 acres. An announcement appeared in Iris Oifigiúil on the 17th February, 1948, that the price, in default of agreement, would be £5,000. The Land Commission are presumably proceeding in that case but so far nothing very tangible has resulted. No scheme has been prepared or no investigation has been carried out. I think the Land Commission have no excuse now in coming to decisions in all the cases I have mentioned. The withholding of decisions is unfair, not merely to the people who are expecting land but it is in a degree unfair to the people who have objected because when the decision is reserved for such a long period they are not in a position to put their heart into the working of the land as they might otherwise do.

We heard a good deal from time to time that in cases where land is badly needed the Land Commission should go in and purchase land in the open market. That was advocated by Deputies who are now supporting the Government when they were in opposition on this side of the House. I wonder is that going to be the policy now? Personally I hope not because I think it would be a very dangerous policy to follow. I think it would increase the price of land very considerably. I have never known a case except one in which the Congested Districts Board many years ago went into a public auction and bought land. They did so because there was a considerable amount of land there and there was a considerable area adjoining it which was in their hands. They held that by taking both forms, it would enable them to prepare a better allocation scheme.

We also have heard in this House, on many occasions, about this thing they call political interference with the Land Commission. The Minister presides there now and that is one of the things that I would like him to come out with if there was any political interference either by Ministers or even Deputies with the Land Commission.

You will hear all about it, everything being equal.

I would like to hear all about it. In fact, I would like if there could be a day set aside specially for a discussion on that matter and that we could go back for a considerable number of years. Nobody more anxiously awaits a discussion of that kind, if it were possible to bring it about, than I. Section 6 of the Land Act of 1933 puts it outside the power of a Minister to interfere in the acquisition or division of land. I should like to know if it can be suggested that the Minister's predecessors interfered in the acquisition or division of land. If they did, I am sure the present Minister will not spare them—and I do not expect that he should. But I know there was no such interference.

I hope Section 6 of the Land Act of 1933 will not be altered or set aside. Remember, we all have our wellwishers and our favourites, but I think that nothing would bring worse dividends politically than interference of that kind. I saw a certain amount of it before the Land Act of 1933; I knew what happened, and that was one of my chief reasons for giving full support to the insertion of that section in the Land Act of 1933.

On the Vote for the Department of Lands on previous occasions we had a considerable amount of oratory from the Minister for Agriculture, in which he roundly denounced the having of the annuities under the 1933 Act. He said it was sheer dishonesty; that it was unfair to the tax-paying community to have them carrying half of what should be the normal annuity on a holding. I hope the section of the Land Act of 1933 that deals with that will not be amended and I hope the Minister for Agriculture, if he tries to put it across at a Government meeting, will be strongly resisted by the Minister for Lands.

To what section is the Deputy referring?

I could not quote the section, but it is in the Land Act of 1933, as the Minister very well knows. If I were to go to the Library, I am sure I could bring it up and quote the relevant section. That is the danger I see—going back again to fix the normal rent and make the tenant pay in full. It is more dangerous now than at any other time, because land purchased now will be purchased at a price that, in my opinion, will be much above its normal value, and if the allottees have to bear the annuity in proportion to the purchase price it will be a very grave hardship on them. Some future Government will have to come to the rescue and again institute what was enacted in the 1933 Land Act. I am saying that in all sincerity, because I have a very good idea of how the Minister for Agriculture can use his oratorical powers denouncing what the Fianna Fáil Government did in 1933 and how he will insist—that is, if his statements in opposition mean anything—that you revert to the pre-1933 position.

At a time like this, when there is a hunger for land, people desiring land will take it at any price. They will take it at almost any rent that will be fixed. I am quite sure there are a number of them who would take land at a rent of £3 an acre and, when they have it for ten years, they will come to the Land Commission and to Ministers and Deputies saying that they cannot carry the burden much longer. To ensure that that burden will not be placed on them, I ask the Minister to pay attention to what I am saying and not pay any heed to his colleague, the Minister for Agriculture, who may want to have that state of affairs brought about again.

As I have said already, I do not believe land acquisition and division will fully solve the congested problem. I firmly believe that unless this matter is tackled from other angles than through the division of land, that problem will remain acute, and very acute. I suggest the Minister should set up a special section of his Department on the lines of the old Congested Districts Board to go into the whole question of congestion.

He has made a fairly clear statement that the relief of congestion is his primary object. I would like to know what is his policy with regard to landless men who are applicants. Are they to be completely overruled?

Are they not provided for by law?

They are provided for in regulations, not by law; they are provided for in the regulations under the Land Act. They are placed about sixth on the list, in my opinion.

Did I propose to interfere with those regulations?

I am not saying that the Minister proposes to interfere with them, but this is what I hold, that if the relief of congestion is the Minister's primary object, landless men should not look forward in the vain hope of being provided with holdings of land, because that is all it has meant for a number of years. Landless men are told they are provided for in the Act and in the regulations and that they may get holdings at the discretion of the Land Commission Inspector. But very few of them have got holdings and I think it would be just as well for the Minister to take his courage in his hands now and disillusion them, because if he is in earnest in solving the congested problem first, he will find there will be no land available for landless men, and in my opinion there is no use in holding out a vain hope to them that they are likely to get land.

As I said at the outset, I intervened in this debate not for the purpose of being critical but for the purpose of being as helpful as I can and for the purpose of giving the Minister an opportunity of fully clarifying his policy. I assure the Minister that any steps he thinks fit to take in tackling the problem of land division, either by way of acquisition or resumption of land, I shall be quite prepared to support any Supplementary Estimate he brings before this House in order to accomplish that task within the shortest possible time.

I welcome the policy as announced by the Minister particularly as I represent a constituency which has been affected in the years of the emergency by the closing down on land division. I am glad that the Minister has removed that restriction and that his main concern will be the relief of congestion. In my constituency—and I am sure this applies equally to other parts of the country—there is a very serious problem. There you have men with holdings completely inadequate to enable them to earn a decent livelihood. In different areas there are numbers of small holdings like that piled up against large and sometimes unworked estates. It does seem to me that, if we are to redress the harm done over the centuries, the question of providing a proper holding of a sufficient economic size should be one of the first considerations of our State.

I am in agreement with a good deal of what Deputy Beegan has said in relation to this question of land division. In the last 25 years since 1923 we have had a native Government. Yet we are still discussing in this Parliament the question of relieving congestion and providing land for landless men. We are still discussing what is the proper size of a holding to enable a man to live in decent comfort. We are discussing as to whether it should be 30, 35 or 40 acres. I am amazed to find this problem so far short of solution after 25 years. It is a matter upon which I feel very strongly. As the last Deputy has said, there has been too much delay in the carrying out of acquisition and the implementing of decisions to acquire. Apparently that is the result of the commissioners being a more or less independent body exercising quasi-judicial powers and holding a definite quasi-judicial status. Whether they have wrapped themselves up in a bundle of red tape, or whatever the cause may be, there is a considerable time-lag between the decision to acquire a particular estate and the implementing of that decision. I think it is regrettable that that should be so and I trust that in the future this matter will be speeded up. In many cases estates have been divided and allotted to particular allottees under a sort of caretaking system during which they served a probationary period. In those cases years sometimes elapse before those allottees become owners of their holdings. I think that is a wrong system and I think it is a bad system. It has a bad effect on the men who suffer under this probationary period and who are neither the owners of the land nor who have any degree of certainty that they will evenually become the owners. That destroys their security and it destroys some of those fundamental principles for which many of our leaders fought in the past.

I think the ideal type of land division is the splitting up of estates into holdings of proper sizes amongst those people who are to benefit. Once the division has taken place I think the holders should own the land and work it without interference. I am very glad that the acquisition of land will commence in the Midlands. There is a serious problem there. I trust that the Minister will endeavour to get away from the basis upon which land was divided in the past. I regret to say that land division was concerned with the particular colour of the applicant. I do not know whether Deputy Beegan spoke with his tongue in his cheek but he had the gall to stand up in this House and suggest that there had been no political interference on the part of the last Government as far as land division was concerned. There has been considerable such interference. Time and time again estates were divided and allotted to applicants simply because they were nominated by the local Fianna Fáil cumann. A system of patronage had been built up.

Can you name the estates?

You will get plenty of names.

The MacEllin estate at Brize, if you want to know.

I do not know anything about that part of the country.

What are you talking about so?

Order, please. Let the Deputy on your own side of the House speak.

An entire system of patronage has been built up.

He should name the estates.

The Deputy should maintain order.

He has a guilty conscience.

It is not guilty. Yours is guilty.

A system of patronage has been built up by the previous Administration, particularly by the Minister for Lands, who utilised the power of dividing land throughout the country to further the interests of his own Party. I know that in the years before the war, when acquisition did take place, an entire parish in LeixOffaly changed its political views overnight simply because of the division of an estate. Lists of names were sent up to the Land Commission by the local Fianna Fáil cumann and, on the say-so of some local Gauleiter, some men got land and some of the most deserving got none. I know that is a serious accusation. I trust that some spokesman of the last Administration will deal with it. Deputy Hilliard asks for names. I do not know whether Deputy Hilliard thinks that because I am a new Deputy in this House I am innocent.

I do not think anything of the kind.

Deputy Hilliard wants names. I shall be only too glad to supply them at any time but I am sure that they will come from a much more official source before the debate closes.

That is all I want.

Down in part of my constituency outside Clara there is an estate there called the Ballinamenton estate. As far as that part of my constituency is concerned it ranks as a large estate. It comprises some 103 acres. That estate has been vacant and has been let for the past 24 years. It is owned by a man who is not a citizen of this country. It is occupied under the conacre system by a businessman in Galway. Twice that estate has been promised to the local farmers in the last five years. Twice it was promised to them by the local Fianna Fáil cumann at a time when the members of that cumann knew that, while they were promising it, there was a complete close down on all land division.

Before the general election.

And before the general election. I trust that the wrong done by the attempt to deceive the local farmers if Tubber in connection with the Ballinamenton estate will now be remedied and that division will take place in the clear light of day and not as a result of a caucus meeting behind closed doors.

If we are to have land division, we should be sincere about it and division should not take place merely amongst the followers of the administration in power. Above all, that maxim enunciated by the former Minister about land going to Fianna Fáil followers should not be followed by this Government in relation to its own followers. Until that even-handed policy of dividing land and giving it to men who deserve it, irrespective of what their politics may be, is adopted, we will never get back to a proper moral standard throughout the country. Deputy Moylan may laugh. I hope he will have some contribution to make to the debate and will explain many of the things which trouble the ordinary people throughout the country. The sooner we turn our backs on this disgusting policy of patronage applied to land, the better for this country, and I commend the Minister for the policy he has enunciated.

I realise that he has set himself a very high aim because he has to restore the confidence of the people living in congested districts that they will get land because of their claims and not because of whom they know. He will have to do that, first of all, and, secondly, he will have, by the manner in which he regulates his Department, to ensure that such a division as he decides upon is carried out quickly, that the eventual vesting of lands in the deserving people who are to get them is carried through as quickly as possible, and that what I have described as the probationary period for which a man is allowed to be a caretaker on the land, apparently at the mercy of different officials, should be as short as possible. He will have to deal with these two matters which are of considerable importance. I do not know what view I would take of Deputy Beegan's suggestion that the Land Commission should enter the property market. I assume that in connection with that, as in connection with many questions, much can be said on both sides, but let us put first things first. There is in this country some land—it may not be much— which should be divided.

There are certain estates which, for one reason or another, are not being properly worked, which should be better worked and which should be divided amongst deserving people, and I trust the Minister will concentrate on matters like that which are of primary concern to the ordinary small farmer. I welcome the new approach of the Minister to this entire question of land division and, as I say, I trust we shall get away from the policy of political interference with land division which has done much to shake the confidence of the people in it.

In my constituency we have a number of uneconomic holdings as well as a number of large holdings, and now that the Minister has decided to resume the acquisition of land, I should like him to take into consideration the number of people, especially in North County Dublin, who are paying from £14 to £20 for conacre. There are a number of idle estates in the district, of which I have spoken in the past few years, and I should like the Minister to bear these places in mind.

With regard to the statements of Deputy O'Higgins, I do not know what the Deputy was talking about but, in County Dublin, the inspectors carried out their work fairly and gave the land, so far as my experience in public life goes, to the people who needed it most.

In case the Deputy might be under any misapprehension, I am blaming the former Minister and the former Administration—not the inspectors.

You cannot get away with that.

I am pointing out how free the inspectors were left. I always believed that the most deserving person got the land. When a Deputy is elected, he is not elected for a certain section in his constituency. He is elected to serve every section, irrespective of their political views, and that has been my outlook on public life. I would not like to see a man getting a holding unless he was entitled to it and capable of working it and doing himself and the nation justice. Under the 1933 Land Act, as Deputy Beegan has pointed out, the then Minister divested himself of any power whatever to acquire or divide land. That power was vested in the Land Commission, and, as Deputy O'Higgins has pointed out, that commission had the sole right to acquire land. They were really the independent referees. They went on the basis of the inspectors' reports as to who should get the land and who was best entitled to it. The position is that if any Minister wanted to carry on as the previous Fine Gael Minister carried on, he had complete power up to the time the 1933 Land Act was passed.

Cumann na nGaedheal.

Cumann na nGaedheal or Fine Gael.

600 acres to a district justice in Tipperary.

The position was that the Cumann na nGaedheal Minister at that time had the power in his own hands and our Minister divested himself of that power by the 1933 Land Act and I do not see if the Minister wanted to have complete patronage why he should have done that. The 1933 Act, therefore, is a complete answer to a number of statements that have been made very uncharitably in this House.

And the Fianna Fáil clubs were the answer to the 1933 Act.

You will get a hell of a land if you get that idea into your head.

I do not want to be breaking confidence but the previous "Minister for Grass", as he was called——

Now that is going too far.

I think that that remark should be withdrawn. The Deputy is referring to somebody that is now dead, a previous Minister of this House and calling him a nickname.

I withdraw anything I have said. I have not insulted anybody, have I?

I took it that the Deputy was referring to a previous Minister of this House by a nickname. If I am wrong, I am sorry.

You are very susceptible. When you are Minister for Lands for a while you will have a very big job in my opinion——

The Deputy should address me instead of talking across the House.

I am delighted that the Minister has decided to acquire land and divide it, for any words of mine could not express the urgent necessity which exists for land division, especially in County Dublin. We have a very acute problem of uneconomic holders who are definitely an asset to this nation, who keep the Dublin market going; they work hard, a number of them are, what you might call, model farmers working under very adverse circumstances. Many people of that kind are hardly in a position to carry on; they show their industry by paying up to £20 for conacre and surely they are worthy of sympathetic consideration.

Another point that I want to deal with is the size of the holdings. That is a point which has been very much debated in the House over a number of years. I still hold that it is better to give a man from 35 to 40 acres, or we will say 35 acres, in North County Dublin than to divide the 35 acres between two men, because it means that a man with 35 acres will be very near having an economic holding, especially being near a good market, and there will be the possibility that he will employ other people to assist him. If you divide it between two men, however, you have the opposite argument and you have a man who is neither a labourer nor a farmer. You are leaving him in mid-air and he will not be in a position to employ labour. It is better that a man should have at least a reasonable holding and he is better for the nation than the man who has a small holding. In County Dublin you have the position where some small dairy farmers try to keep cows on only 22 or 23 statute acres of land. They are going out through the country looking for land as, though they may have only a few cows, they have to keep a couple of horses and other things and the whole thing is uneconomic. Others who have 10 or 12 acres are neither farmers nor labours. They try to farm for a part of the year and for the rest of the time they try to get work on the roads or other subsidiary work in order to try to carry on.

Another point—and it is a sore and hackneyed subject for a number of years—is the question of Land Commission roads. I do say, with all due respect, that the nearest approach to making roads by the Land Commission, both under a native Government and as far back even as the days of the old Congested Districts Board, was the making of what you might call prairie tracks. In certain districts they came along and got boulders or stones and put them on the road and they covered them with any old sand, in many cases out of the nearest adjoining sand pit. They left the road so that two carts could barely pass, or maybe two lorries but only with great difficulty. They were not concerned with making a proper road but only a prairie track and they even allocated the holdings along it to people who lived on that particular estate or farm which was being divided. During my four years in public life I have been making representations with regard to these prairie tracks because people are under very severe hardship trying to bring farm implements on these tracks such as tractors or binders which get stuck in the road. Umpteen of them in County Dublin go back to the old days of the Congested Districts Board and I must say that I would like to see that policy changed. In support of what Deputy Beegan has stated, if it is possible to put these roads in a proper condition, even if it requires the amendment of the Act, they should be handed over to the local authority after they have been properly repaired. I would ask the Minister to try as far as possible to have this done and to see that when his Department is dividing land in future they give up making these horrible prairie tracks which we have had experience of throughout the country over a long number of years.

I would also like to hear what the Minister has to say regarding the revesting of holdings. I was not here for his opening address unfortunately. A number of farmers in North County Dublin and South County Dublin are still anxious that their holdings should be revested. While I am on that point, I would like to say that I feel that there is a lack of cohesion between the Land Commission, the Department of Agriculture and the Board of Works with reference to this drainage scheme. In the old days when there was any drainage to be done the Congested Districts Board carried it out, especially minor drainage schemes. I know that we have the rural improvements scheme and other means of carrying out drainage now, but sometimes the trouble with them is that while five or six people agree to get the work done, others disagree, with the result that the five or six people who are anxious to have their land drained are hampered and held up by the people who do not want it done and who, through mere ordinary disagreeableness, will not help their neighbours. The Land Commission, even at this stage, should try to have cohesion.

The land is theirs. They should take some interest in land that is badly flooded. This matter should not be sent from Billy to Jack. The land belongs to the Land Commission. Drainage is the function of some other Department. There should be some cohesion between the Departments in tackling work that is long overdue. A number of Land Commission inspectors were put on other work during the emergency. The country is settling down again and we are away from war.

Are you sure of that, after the statement that was made by your Party leader? After the exTaoiseach's statement, I am glad to hear the Deputy say that we will have no war.

You swallowed the policy you preached during the election.

Deputy O'Leary should allow Deputy Burke to proceed.

I feel that drainage should be the concern of the Land Commission and that they should press the responsible Department to have land drained. There are a number of examples of flooding in County Dublin and I would like to see something done about it. In regard to landless men, is it the policy of the present Minister to deprive enterprising landless men, of whom there are cases in County Dublin, who have acquired ten, 12, 15, 16 or 20 acres of conacre for tillage——

Who have acquired?

I mean who have taken it on the 11 months' system for tillage. Some of the people to whom I have already referred carry on market gardening and they work four, five or ten acres. They ordinarily would be classified as landless men when they would not be on the Land Commission register as being the tenants of land.

Who said anything against landless men? Did I say anything against landless men?

No, but I want to find out what is the position regarding these men. I believe these men are worthy of special consideration especially those who have shown enterprise and have taken land in conacre. They are worthy of sympathetic consideration. The Minister will have no power, but the Land Commission should at least consider these men as suitable tenants.

I have had some inquiries made from time to time as to the possibility of the Land Commission increasing the grant for the building of houses. Deputy Beegan dealt with that grant. I have heard replies given in this House that it was a matter for the Department of Local Government but I would like to have a definite statement by the Minister for Lands that he would give a specific grant outside the grant given by the Department of Local Government which, in the old days, was £200 or £250. £200 will not do very much now. The Minister for Lands should consider making a definite statement as to the amount of money he would give towards building houses and outhouses.

The Land Commission inspectors, in addition to interesting themselves in land division and revesting, should interest themselves also in seeing that the holdings they revest are handed over to the tenant in a reasonable condition. I mean, if there is anything that it is within the power of the Land Commission to do for the particular tenant, especially a new tenant, in improving his condition, such as the provision of a roadway to his house, drainage, and various other things, they should at least report that that work should be done. They should not try to side-track the responsibility by merely revesting the holding and leaving it at that.

With regard to the provision of water on land, we have another problem in North County Dublin and portion of the south county. The Land Commission have sunk pumps here and there on certain holdings throughout the county. I am given to understand that they are not anxious to continue that policy. I believe that is a very essential work. It is not right that cattle should have to drink polluted water. When the Land Commission are dividing a holding they should make sure that there will be a proper water supply for cattle and, if there is not a proper water supply in existence, they should make arrangements for a pump to be sunk or water laid on.

A number of farmers in County Dublin have to draw water a long distance for their cattle, especially in dry seasons. In respect of a number of the holdings that have been revested in County Dublin and in respect of which rent is still being paid to the Land Commission, the Land Commission, who is still in charge of the land and the landlord of the land, should at least assist the tenant in providing water for stock. I know that these things are all very expensive to provide but they are very reasonable things to ask for and the Land Commission should interest themselves in the matter.

There is another problem in South County Dublin which, I suppose, the Minister might say concerns the Department of Agriculture. A certain type of fern, growing on lands in the South County Dublin, is poisonous to cattle. I am dealing with one specific area, Castlekelly, in the Bohernabreena district. Ferns growing on some of the lands that are under the Land Commission have killed cattle, especially at certain times of the year. I know this is a very big problem but it is well that the Minister for Lands, who is new to the job, should know all about these things.

How many cattle did the ferns kill in the last 16 years?

I move to report progress.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again on Tuesday, 1st June.
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