When I was interrupted to give an opportunity to the Minister for Finance to announce that he was going to give another twist I was dealing with the position raised by Deputy Cowan as to discipline in the case of the Guards for not bringing up cases. I was giving the views of the present Minister for Justice as to what a Guard's duty should be, particularly on a Sunday, towards the needs of the rural community, the members of which like to take a drink. I wonder whether we could get rid of this disagreeable condition of affairs.
Committee on Finance. - Vote 32—Office of the Minister for Justice (Resumed).
Not on this Vote.
I wonder would the Minister consider easing the situation down the country and so prevent the Guards doing work that they evidently do not wish to do, for there is no law as bad as an unjust law, and no law so bad or so upsetting to the conditions of justice as laws that have to be ignored. I am glad that we have on record here the views of the Minister for Justice on this. I wonder if I would be going too far in suggesting that this statement which I have read out should be cut out and sent in leaflet form to every Garda station in the country in order that the Gardaí may know the views of the Minister for Justice in this particular matter and so avoid unnecessary, annoying and irritating prosecutions of the general public. I do not intend to elaborate on that particular condition of affairs beyond saying that if we are to have a good Garda force and if we are to have respect for law in this country, the first law must be the recognition of equal rights for all our citizens. That is a law above all other laws and it is only when that law is broken, by laws made in this House or elsewhere, that the law is brought into contempt. When the law is brought into such contempt that it is ignored right through the country you have a condition of affairs that calls for remedy from the Minister for Justice and his Department.
I am not a bit concerned that a Deputy who, when he was in opposition, voted for the opening of public houses for six hours every Sunday, now announces that he is going to vote against opening them for four hours because he is on the side of the Minister. I am, however, very definitely concerned with respect for the law; with the recognition of the law, and with the prevention of a condition of affairs in this country where the law is so definitely and openly unjust.
The Deputy is criticising legislation. He must deal with administration.
I have finished with that point. My sole reason for bringing in this aspect of affairs——
The Deputy will have to sit down if he does not get away from that aspect of affairs.
My sole reason for raising the point is the fact that Deputy Cowan pointed out in his speech that those Gardaí are now being disciplined for not enforcing the law. I should not like, and I am sure the Minister for Justice would not like, to see that kind of discipline applied, after what he has said about efficient Gardaí.
I would again appeal to the Minister in the matter of juries in this country. It is unjust and unfair that farmers can be dragged 40, 50 and 60 miles away from their business and from their homes into courts day after day and week after week at their own expense, whilst every other individual attending that court is paid.
I feel sure that the Minister, as a rural Deputy, understands the particular annoyance and the injustice of that condition of affairs as well as I do. I am not concerned with higher pay for Tom, Dick or Harry. I am particularly concerned with the agricultural community who are dragged away from their business on this particular mission. I think it is unfair. I would, therefore, appeal to the Minister to give the matter his earnest consideration so that every unfortunate farmer in the country will not be running off to the nearest doctor in an endeavour to get a certificate to the effect that he is deaf. The present system is unjust to the farming community and I feel sure that the Minister in his wisdom will deal with the matter.
I should like first of all to refer to a matter which has been mentioned by Deputy Byrne and perhaps by some other Deputies also. It concerns the transfer of Garda officers. I have one specific case in mind—a case which has been raised in previous debates in this House on this particular Estimate. It concerns the transfer of a Garda officer from County Dublin to the West of Ireland. That transfer was surrounded, on the face of it anyhow, by considerable political influence and political intrigue.
If that was not within the last 12 months it does not arise.
With respect, I think that owing to the fact that this Garda officer has not been restored to his former position it does arise now.
The Deputy might plead for that, but administration of three years ago does not arise now.
In that connection I would say to the Minister that it is a very wrong thing to have Garda officers interfered with in the exercise of their duties by any public representative. Nevertheless, there have been cases of victimisation over a number of years past. I would suggest to the Minister that he should cause an inquiry to be made into such cases with particular reference to the Garda officer who was transferred some two years ago from County Dublin to the West of Ireland. In my view, and I have brought this matter to the notice of the Minister already, this was a clear case of victimisation which should be remedied as quickly as possible. The Garda officer concerned is a senior sergeant in the Garda force. He has been separated from his family. He is in a small town in my constituency at present and he is, and has been for the last two years, suffering a grievous wrong. That matter should be inquired into by the Minister. It is unfortunate that it is necessary for me to raise it and unfortunate that any matter like this should be raised in a particular case in this House, but I find it necessary for me to do so.
I was interested to hear the Minister's reference to the case of District Court clerks and clerical officers in his Department. The District Court clerks undoubtedly have a very strong case for recognition by the Minister. I am aware personally, as a result of a deputation when I was present and met the Minister, that they have his wholehearted support. As these District Court clerks had made claims for the solution of their grievances and had been asked at the commencement of the war to postpone their claims for the duration of the emergency, and since as a result of their patience then eight years have now elapsed, some immediate steps should be taken, if not to find a complete solution for the grievances, at least to remedy them partially. They require establishment and they require better conditions of service generally. They fulfil a very important function in the administration of justice. Those associated with the practice of law realise that the important officer, more often than not, is not the judge delivering judgment or the barrister or solicitor pleading a case, but the officer in a very humble position who has to prepare the documents for the hearing of a case in court. This is particularly so in the District Court, where justice is administered locally and often, of necessity, very quickly. I would impress on the Minister that, although the numbers of these officers may not be large, the duties they fulfil are onerous and often thankless. They have received from a succession of Ministers in recent years very little recognition of their claims and I press these claims upon the Minister very strongly.
I have certain hesitation in raising another matter. I raise it as a lawyer, and I know that when a lawyer talks about legal costs or fees he generally meets with a very hostile reception from laymen. It appears to be the general belief that those in the legal profession have taken the cream of the earnings of this country for hundreds of years back and that particular belief is so strong that nowadays those who engage in the practice of law find it very hard to get any of their grievances remedied. In the regulations prescribing fees and costs, particularly in the circuit courts, a position of affairs has now arisen where the practice of law by either solicitors or barristers in the Circuit Court has ceased to be a paying proposition. I have no brief to speak on behalf of the solicitor's profession, but I appreciate their difficulties. Under the Circuit Court Rules brought into operation in 1930, certain counsels' fees were prescribed in the schedule. These fees have remained exactly as they were for the last 18 years. A young barrister starting off practice and going down on circuit to learn his trade—as any man starting practice must—has to pay more to-day for the clothes he wears and the food he eats, if he is running a car he has to pay more for it, and his own personal expenses have considerably increased; yet there has been no increase whatsoever in the very miserable fees allowed to him under the Circuit Court Rules.
The Circuit Court Rules Committee has recently suggested some increases in fees, which in no way meet the situation but which go a certain distance in alleviating it. If the Minister, as a layman, has any doubts about the merits of what I am saying, he should have this question of the approval of these fees referred for the opinion of the Attorney-General. If that is done, I am certain that some measure of recognition will be given to lawyers generally.
I agree to a large extent with what Deputy Corry said in connection with jurors. I am sure this is a matter which has been discussed in this House time after time and I have little to add as a contribution to it. We all know that the jury system is essential to the administration of justice. Jurors play a very important part and, just like any other class playing an important part, their conditions of service should be made at least not onerous on them.
I again urge on the Minister to pay particular attention to the question of the Garda officer to whom I have referred and also to the question of legal costs generally.
I was rather disappointed in the Minister's opening statement, that he did not say anything about fixing the jurisdiction of the District Court. I understand this matter was considered favourably by his predecessor, as being one of the most effective means of reducing the cost of litigation. The District Courts have proved most effective and popular courts in the country, where people get through whatever litigation they have very quickly. The litigation there is inexpensive and is satisfactory. As a matter of fact, they are the most successful courts of any, from the countryman's point of view. The jurisdiction of these courts is too limited. I understood that a Bill was practically ready for introduction to this House to increase the jurisdiction of the District Court to at least £50 in contract and tort and to enable country people to litigate simple questions with regard to fences and rights of way where the valuation is under a certain figure. It is absurd that when two litigants have to go to court on the question of trespass in connection with a fence, where the valuation of the holdings is possibly not more than £2 or £3, a question of title is raised and they are transferred to the Circuit Court with counsel and engineers and all the other attendant expenses of a title action in such a court. It puts the unsuccessful claimant out of court because its only result can be that he is beggared for life. Many of these people cannot take that risk. The obvious defect is that the District Court is not given jurisdiction to deal with such questions. I hope that the Minister will re-examine the proposals of his predecessor in connection with this matter.
New legislation, I am afraid.
New legislation—exactly.
I am not advocating new legislation but if the Minister feels constrained to introduce new legislation to remedy this defect he will have my sympathy and help. I was glad to hear the Minister say that he would do something to hurry up the work of the Land Registry. We all know that there was a serious shortage of staff there and, as we go on from day to day, there will be more and more work for that particular department. I was glad to hear the Minister say, though he did seem to suggest that it was a matter for congratulation, that any extension of this department would be covered by the increased charges that have come into operation where Land Registry work is concerned. Those increased charges have been a source of worry both to the ordinary people and to legal practitioners throughout the country. These charges are a definite tax on the small farmer. I would appeal to the Minister to reconsider the revision of these increased Land Registry charges.
We did not put them on.
If it is found out in practice that it does not work out and that it tends to stop people, particularly the poorer sections of the community, putting the titles to their places in order, then it calls for revision and modification. I have come across many cases in which small farmers down in the West of Ireland have been unable to go through with putting their titles in order due in the main to the increased charges in the Land Registry. The vast majority of my profession as a whole and the vast majority of the people do not approve of them.
I think it is in the interest of the State that people should be encouraged to keep their titles in order. The longer such things are let go the greater the difficulty in the long run because people are then forced to come into court looking for orders under Section 52 of the Local Registration of Title Act, thereby holding up the work of the courts, in their efforts to get over the fact that their titles have been allowed to lapse over a number of years. I would appeal to the Minister to re-examine that problem. I would suggest to him that where the valuation is only £20 or £25 in the rural areas these increased charges should not operate.
I listened with interest to some of the comments made by the Deputies in connection with the Gardaí throughout the country. There is one matter to which I wish to refer. I do so with a certain amount of reluctance. I believe in the Gardaí doing their duty. Having said that, I believe also that there should be a limit to what the Gardaí will do. I listened to Deputy Cowan this evening talking about a Garda who was put on charge because he did not bring a prosecution within a period of 12 months. I can assure Deputy Cowan and the House that that Garda would not last for one week in my particular town. I do not know who is responsible. I believe in the ordinary law being enforced. But I believe that it is carrying the enforcement of the law a little too far when you have members of the Gardaí going around to individuals who pull up with motor cars and taking out a tape measure to see whether they are within 15 inches of the kerb. Prosecutions are being brought to court after court against people parking their cars without lights outside their own houses in quiet streets in country towns. I deplore that tendency in my own town where you have approximately a population of 7,000 and where the record is unequalled as being one of the towns where there is a complete absence of crime.
The effect of this petty vigilance destroys the co-operation that should exist between the public and the Gardaí. I want to see the laws enforced and I want to see the Gardaí do their duty. But the Minister will appreciate that that can be overdone. I fear that if we have a serious outbreak of crime in this particular area the Gardaí will not have the co-operation of the people—that co-operation so essential in maintaining law and order and in the investigation of crime.
Some of the Gardaí have their complaints. One of the main grievances seems to be connected with housing. I would suggest to the Minister that houses should be provided for the Gardaí in country towns. There is some difficulty at the present moment in transferring Gardaí because of lack of accommodation for them. There is a regulation that Gardaí who marry local girls must be transferred to a distance of something like 15 miles away. Owing to the present dearth of housing a number of these men have been left in these areas and they cannot be transferred because there is no accommodation for them. Ultimately the Minister will have to tackle this problem.
That regulation has been amended.
I did not know that it had been amended.
It has been amended within the last three months.
There is such a scarcity of housing in towns now that it is virtually impossible to get decent accommodation except where a member of the Gardaí is sufficiently lucky to have a house and his successor is lucky enough to get the same house. I think the Minister should introduce some scheme to provide special houses for the Gardaí. Until that is done we will not have a contented force. I have heard complaints that the rent allowance is not sufficient. I do not know to what it has been increased but I am told that the increase bears no relation to the actual rents which Garda officers are constrained to pay at the present time. Perhaps the Minister will look into that matter because, although we have had such legislation as the Increase of Rent and Mortgage Interest Restriction Act, there are many cases to which that Act does not apply. In these times anybody looking for a house in a country town—and, of course, the same thing applies in the cities—is not going to question what rent will be charged; it is more a question of endeavouring to secure the house. To meet the special circumstances, I suggest to the Minister that this rent allowance should be increased.
There has been a tendency during recent years to shift everything on to county registrars. I do not quite agree with the principle of making the county registrar chief probate officer and sheriff and concentrating these positions in one individual. I do not see how any county registrar, let him be a superman, can efficiently keep track of all these branches. This should never have been done. I think that in one Act passed by this House, dealing with sheriffs, discretion was left to the Minister with regard to the office of under-sheriff; it was left to his discretion to make the office of under-sheriff separate in certain cases.
In the boroughs only.
I will not contradict the Minister, but my recollection is that the Minister has discretion to do it in a particular instance. Be that as it may, I know that taking the positions of probate officer and under-sheriff and adding them to all the other responsibilities of the county registrar is asking too much. You should not have that state of affairs. The county registrar's responsibilities are sufficiently onerous and if he carries them out efficiently that is all that should be asked of him. I am leaving out the absurdity of a county registrar having to sign an execution order and directing himself to execute it. Where this joining of offices has been carried out I ask the Minister carefully to examine the position.
The Minister is no doubt as well aware as I am of the tendency towards complexity in modern legislation. Every day we have new Orders and new laws put in force, all entailing more work and more difficulties for those officers. I ask the Minister to consider the matter and to leave the county registrars as county registrars proper to deal with the work that has always been allocated to them and make the other offices separate. Where county registrars have had this work shoved on to them, they should be paid for it. They are responsible for all the chancery or equity work; they are responsible in case anything goes wrong or if moneys are missing. All the probate work is now thrown on them and they have to supervise and check the money that is collected through their offices under the court decrees that they are now executing. The responsibility is tremendous for any man and I think he should be paid in accordance with that responsibility. I do not suggest that the county registrars are not doing their work efficiently, but if you place additional responsibilities on any individual it is good policy to pay him in accordance with those responsibilities.
One Deputy referred to the old question of costs which is generally mentioned on this Estimate. I do not want to say much about Circuit Court costs and I will not advocate further legislation, but I suggest that the Minister could abolish pleadings in the Circuit Court, which are responsible for a great part of the heavy costs of litigation in those courts. Any practitioner, and particularly the older practitioners who had experience of the county courts, can assure the Minister that with the old county court civil bill, without any pleadings and with a simple notice of particulars, except in a few specified types of action, they got through their work more expeditiously and more cheaply.
I assert that many of these pleadings are completely unnecessary in the Circuit Courts. In nine out of ten cases where people have litigation in the Circuit Courts the parties know well what they are fighting about and their legal advisers know it too, and there is no necessity for elaborate pleadings. Invariably these have to be scanned by counsel and that involves further fees. Then there are stamps, which mean further costs for the litigants. The preparation of these things takes up quite a lot of time. The solicitors have to pay staffs for typing them out and in nine cases out of ten they mean absolutely nothing and are of very little help in the conduct of the case. I think the Minister should consider, as we practitioners consider, that the cost of Circuit Court litigation is excessive and is in many cases beyond the means of the people; they simply cannot afford it. The Minister should concentrate on abolishing pleadings in many of the cases which come into the Circuit Courts. That could be done very easily.
Perhaps I misunderstood the Minister in regard to one matter that I raised by way of Parliamentary Question some time ago—I hope I did misunderstand him. On the 9th March last I asked the Minister if he was aware that some officers in the county registrar's office in Mayo were still unestablished, although they have been in the service for upwards of 40 years, and if he would take steps to have them made permanent, with suitable pension rights. I should mention, in passing, that this does not alone affect Mayo; it affects practically every county in the Twenty-Six Counties, although the number of officers that I have in mind is limited. The Minister stated in reply to a supplementary question that these officers did not avail themselves of an offer to become established, that rules were rules, and if people would not accept what they were offered, what could be done with them. I venture to suggest that these men were not made this offer that the Minister alleges. These men have been there for 40 years and are still unestablished and it is simply because there are only a few people concerned throughout the State that they are being treated in this way.
If my memory serves me, some Labour Deputies some time ago were also interested in this matter. They certainly helped me in a previous debate when the Minister's predecessor had control. We got an undertaking that something would be done for these men, that they would be included in some new scheme that would be brought out by the Department. I cannot see any good reason from a common-sense or equitable point of view why these men are being excluded. I would not mind if they were part-time officers, but they are full time. These two men have worked there for 40 years.
Surely not 40 years?
They were there before a native Administration took over. They started in the Office of the Clerk of the Crown and Peace.
I am afraid not.
That, at all events, is my information. They are there since this State was established.
Very good—I will accept that.
I think I am correct in stating they were in the other office before this State was established. They are, however, in the county registrar's office and he is the successor to the Clerk of the Crown and Peace of former days. They were full-time officers and they worked day in and day out all these years.
I would not mind, or at least I could understand, if there was some sort of regulation precluding the establishment of these men. But, as the Minister is aware, he has power to deal with these men to-morrow if he wishes to do so. The Minister shakes his head; I do not know whether the Minister is aware of the power which he possesses but if he is not I want to point it out to him that power is conferred by Section 62, sub-section (1) of the Court Officers Act of 1926. The Minister has ample power under that section to deal with these men and all I want from the Minister is simply an expression of good will. Surely if these men have given efficient and satisfactory service, even since this State was established, and are now about to retire they should be established in the same way as their brethren and should be given the same rights on their retirement. There is only a very small amount involved. There are only two such officers in my county and there would not be many more of them in the remainder of the Twenty-Six Counties. It would take a very small amount to meet this fair and reasonable demand. I ask the Minister to go into this matter again.
I shall go into it but the Deputy is embarrassing my predecessor.
I can assure the Minister that his predecessor met this matter in a very sympathetic manner and actually gave an undertaking——
And did nothing.
All I want is that the present Minister should follow in the footsteps of his predecessor.
And that is to do nothing.
I have told the Minister that his predecessor undertook to deal with these men. I am merely asking the Minister to do the same, unless of course his colleague, Deputy McGilligan, on the grounds of economy, cannot spare the few "quid" to deal fairly with these few men who have been working in the service of the State for the last 25 years. At all events, if some of the Labour Deputies were present I think they would support this demand. Deputy Davin, so far as my memory serves me, was interested in the matter and the mere fact that I advocate the rights of these particular officers should not preclude a decision in their favour. I shall call on Deputy Davin if he is in the House to speak again in support of the case of these officers if the mere fact of Deputy Moran advocating their case, should be a deterrent as far as the present Minister is concerned.
That is not at all correct.
I shall be extremely brief. I should like just to contribute my appreciation to the many that have been uttered as to the efficiency of the work done by the Gardaí. There is one case of recent date which came under my notice which seems to be analogous to many of those which have been described here. About a fortnight ago a gentleman whom I had seen for the first time came to my place. When he was admitted, I discovered that he was a Guard. He wanted to speak to me and I brought him into my office. He told me that he had spent 24 years in the service and during these 24 years he never had to answer any charge, under any disciplinary code, for neglect of duty or anything else. Because of an alleged interest in a greyhound, not established in fact, he was transferred about 50 miles away and could not find a house in the particular town to which he was sent. He had to stay in the barracks, contribute his share for his maintenance and maintain a wife and six children 50 miles away, in the place wherein he had served for a number of years. I thought, on the records indicated to me, and on the charge not established in fact, that there was arbitrary action taken by some people in authority. He asked me if I could do anything about the matter.
Not knowing the disciplinary code and the regulations which preclude such people as I from interfering, I said "yes"; I then wrote to the Department of Justice. The man again came to me last Sunday—it was about three weeks before that he first approached me—and I never saw a man in such a terrible state of nerves. He was really shaking and full of apprehension. The answer he got to my intervention was a letter from the Commissioner here telling him that he had used political influence in a manner which he should have known was in contravention of the code and threatening him that he would have to answer a disciplinary charge. There is an old pagan dictum in philosophy: Fiat justitia; ruat coelum—“Let justice be done though the heavens fall.” There was tyranny clearly here. If the facts are as represented to me, that young man gave 24 years of very efficient and very meritorious service to the State. If such a man because of an alleged interest, not established in fact, in a greyhound is transferred 50 miles away leaving his wife and his six children to look after themselves and because of a request that the matter would be reconsidered, is threatened with a disciplinary charge, I should like to know from the Minister is there any court of arbitration whereby such men can have their grievances considered or must they be treated in such an arbitrary fashion as I have indicated? Is there any court where these men may plead, or have they to live under such a code of tyranny and injustice such as seems to be reflected in the case I have mentioned? These remarks may strengthen the hands of the Minister, coming from a Deputy of the House, and I say the facts are analogous to those of other cases already mentioned. That is all I have to say.
Mr. Flanagan rose.
Deputy Maguire.
May I point out that I have already risen to speak nine times? I rose to speak when you were here before. I rose seven times while the Ceann Comhairle was in the Chair. This is my second time to rise while you were in the Chair.
I wish to assure the Deputy that the Chair exercises great caution in taking Deputies in their turn.
May I say that I have noticed an official of the House advising the Chair as to whom the Chair should call and I propose to direct the attention of the Taoiseach to that very fact to-night?
I am perfectly certain that the Ceann Comhairle exercised his own discretion and exercised it justly.
He got a good prompt from somebody on the last two occasions.
The action of the Chair is not a matter for discussion in this fashion. If Deputy Flanagan is aggrieved, there is a method by which he can take the opinion of the House.
I will see both the Ceann Comhairle and the Taoiseach to-night
It is a disgrace.
I will not delay Deputy Flanagan as long as I would be delayed if the positions were reversed. As a dispensary doctor, it is my privilege to work quite often very intimately with members of the Garda and it is scarcely necessary for me to pay tribute to their patience, their integrity and, more especially, to their generosity and their help to others. I have had occasion to observe all these qualities in the members of the force but, if I have, I have also had occasion to observe the deplorable condition in which members of the Garda are compelled to live in the barracks allotted to them. It is really appalling that men from whom so much is expected should be asked for so many years to live in such dim, dank and dreary dungeons as these Guards are compelled to live in.
In that connection, I had occasion to view the sites for the successors, in the matter of building, of these dungeons to which I have referred, and I ask the Minister seriously to inquire into the qualifications of the men who selected the sites for these contemplated Garda stations. I assure the house that, had I been consulted, as I consider I should have been, as medical officer of health for the district, I would never have selected a site—I am referring now to a particular instance in my district— with such an aspect as has been selected in this case. Only recently I asked a question here with regard to the site for a Garda barracks in another town in my constituency, a major town compared with the village to which I have referred.
When was the site selected?
I suppose a year or two ago.
I am not quite certain, but I did inspect the site, which will occupy half the fair green of the town. The frontage of the fair green is 60 yards and the frontage of the site selected for the barracks 25 yards. It is anything but a desirable site for a Garda barracks, apart altogether from curtailing the amenities of the town in the matter of the fair green. When the selection of a site for a new barracks is contemplated, the dispensary doctor should, at least, be consulted with regard to it.
In the matter of promotions, I know of a number of cases of Gardaí, otherwise perfectly efficient, just missing the boat in respect of promotion. What effect the stoppage of recruitment will have on promotions in the future, I do not know, but I should like the Minister to see to it that Gardaí will not be victimised merely because of the cessation of recruiting. On the question of driving licences, it appears extraordinary to me that in this country—I think it is alone in this respect—anybody can walk into a county council office, and, irrespective of his or her mentality, can be furnished with a driving licence to drive a potentially dangerous vehicle. It is scarcely necessary for me to enlarge on that and I am sure the Minister will see to it that the regulations governing the issue of driving licences will be amended.
If he has only one eye, he will get the licence.
He does not need an eye at all.
I saw an old woman of 77 years driving a car through the City of Dublin the other day.
I should also like to suggest to the Minister that the old-world custom of deciding by direct medical evidence whether a person is incapable, by reason of drunkenness or alcoholic intake, of driving a car should also be abandoned. It is a quite unsatisfactory mode of decision and I may tell the House that it is quite unsatisfactory from the point of view of my profession. It will give us very great pleasure if it is abandoned entirely and the more modern system, which obtains in most countries, of the blood test, the test for alcoholic content, is adopted instead. When a person is taken into a Garda barracks after an accident, perhaps involving life, the customary thing is that the dispensary medical officer is sent for by the Guards to decide whether the driver is under the influence of drink or was capable of driving a car. What invariably happens is that, about an hour after, when the driver becomes compos mentis, he insists on the services of another doctor who is brought in, with the result that there is the customary clash of evidence in the court subsequently. That is not pleasant for the dispensary medical officer or for the driver's consultant, and we would be much happier to be rid of it all. The Minister should decide to have the distinction of introducing the modern technique in matters of this kind. It is not quite fool-proof, but it is at least a summary punishment and does ensure that people consuming alcohol will not drive a car, at least unless their consumption is infinitesimal.
Deputy Cowan mentioned that there was dissatisfaction amongst the Garda by reason of the disciplinary code. I have had unsolicited expressions of opinion in this matter from various members of the Garda during my 15 years practising in this country and I can say that I have never heard any of them bemoan their fate in that regard. I really think that, when discipline is tempered with humanity and with the spirit of human relations, as I think it is, even in the Garda, and amongst the senior officers, there is no room for complaint. On the contrary, I think they are very happy with regard to the attitude adopted by their senior officers towards them. Admittedly, there will be isolated instances in which the circumstances perhaps make it appear that the discipline was rather strict, but I know that, during the past 15 years, they have been more than satisfied with the attitude of their senior officers towards them and I am sure that the advent of the present Minister will not in any way alter that position.
That generally applies in the country divisions.
As I am not au fait with anything relating to the city, I do really think, however, that this is not the place to air individual cases of victimisation. Deputy O'Higgins, I think, mentioned a case of political victimisation.
Surely this is the right place.
Surely the right place would be to the Minister and his Department.
Raising it here would save that trouble.
You went rather close to the border in a case you were dealing with here.
I think I am the best judge of that.
I do not dispute that. You mentioned warders doing 68 hours of duty a week in prisons. I agree that this is a rather excessive period of duty, but Deputy Cowan will be surprised to know that I have two nurses in my fever hospital who have to do 84 hours a week.
I am sorry for that.
I am sorry that the Minister for Health is not here but I will have another opportunity of discussing that.
How long is that carrying on?
It has been carrying on from time immemorial with regard to nurses.
Deputy O'Higgins, by the way, seized the opportunity also of asking the Minister's support in connection with legal fees. It would interest Deputy O'Higgins to look up for comparison the medical fees allowed to dispensary and other medical officers coming up from the country to attend even the High Court and to see the fraction which our fees represent compared with legal fees, and as he appealed to the Minister to submit to the Attorney-General their case I would also ask the Minister to submit our case to the Minister for Health.
I do not think I have anything more to say and I wish the Minister every success.
I have not, probably, as much to say on this debate as in previous years. I rise to-night for the purpose of making a few very brief remarks and for the purpose of making known to the new Minister for Justice some matters which I believe are of very great importance and to which he should give sympathetic consideration.
Deputy Dr. Maguire, in his address to the House, certainly contributed a great deal of common sense. He made a reference to the question of driving licences. I believe that sooner or later the Minister for Justice will certainly have to take some steps in regard to the issue of driving licences. Certainly it is an appalling state of affairs to say that any man outside a lunatic asylum can walk into the county council office and on payment of the prescribed fee take out a driving licence despite the fact that he may have no knowledge whatever of driving any lorry, motorcar or whatever he may be going to drive. I think very serious steps should be taken with regard to people driving motor-cars under the influence of drink.
If I were a justice and a case came before me of a man driving a car under the influence of drink I would stop at nothing short of the largest term of imprisonment I could give him. I think it is a downright disgrace that when so many of these cases are brought into the district, and other courts, that the district and other justices are so lenient. I would recommend to the Minister for Justice and appeal to him, believing and knowing that he has no functions in the court, that he should recommend that these drivers of lorries, cars and similar vehicles should be dealt with as severely as possible. I would go as far as to recommend that no fines should be imposed but a term of imprisonment. These drivers are a danger to themselves and they are certainly a danger to the community. I think that many of the accidents which have occurred and most of the accidents that will occur have been brought and will be brought about through carelessness and in most cases because the drivers are under the influence of drink. For the safety of the general public I believe that the Department of Justice will have to take a very serious view of that matter.
Deputy Dr. Maguire in the course of his address made a reference to a case of political victimisation that was raised here by my colleague, Deputy Tom O'Higgins. Surely if Deputy O'Higgins did not avail of the opportunity of raising the matter in this House where could he raise it? Deputy Maguire probably thought that the proper channel should have been to approach the Minister. If victimisation were to be carried out at the request of the Minister of the time I believe that a person who approached that Minister would not get a very sympathetic hearing. For that reason and from my own experience, I believe that the right place to raise such a matter is in this House. I join with Deputy Tom O'Higgins in making a very strong appeal to the present Minister for Justice to have this complaint investigated. There is a case of the downright barefaced political victimisation of a Garda officer in my own constituency who was transferred there from Dublin.
Why not approach the Minister, that is, if you allege political victimisation?
I thought the days of influence had gone in this country since February. I would not approach the Minister for Justice or any Minister.
I do not see what help it would be to raise it here.
That is what I have been talking about for the last six years. That is what I and other Independent Deputies have been talking about and surely we are not going to begin ourselves. In this case there has been, beyond yea or nay, political victimisation where a certain Fianna Fáil Deputy approached a Garda officer and told him that he would see "Jerry"— those were the words he used—and have him removed to the heart of the country. Apparently the Deputy saw "Jerry" and was successful, and the officer found himself separated from his wife and family at great inconvenience to himself.
Why not get this seen to through your Minister?
I am not endeavouring to influence our own Minister, but in the interests of fair play and on merit, I am asking him to examine the conditions under which this officer was transferred.
But is it necessary to raise it in the House?
Absolutely. That is what I am elected for. I believe in the case of any Deputy with a genuine grievance that that is what he is elected to this House for. I do not know this officer; the officer never approached me on it, but I am very well aware of the facts that led to his transfer under very shady political manoeuvr-ing. I know that in the County Dublin where this Garda officer was this particular Deputy would assemble his friends on a Sunday in the broad daylight, walk straight into a licensed premises and crack his fingers at the Garda and say: "What can you say? If you open your beak about it I will see that you are transferred." These are the threats the Deputy used, not in one case, but in several cases.
Under the last Government, Garda officers were afraid to carry out their duties. They were afraid to walk into a licensed premises after hours and capture thereon a member of a Fianna Fáil cumann who was drinking there. I have known many cases even in my own constituency where Garda officers were afraid to carry out their duty because of the intervention of the Minister for Justice and Fianna Fáil Deputies. That is something that must stop. We have as good men in the Garda to-day as ever we had. I believe that we have one of the finest police forces in the world. It is most regrettable, therefore, that these men could not carry out their duties without interference. It is disgraceful and appalling. Where you have an officer of this State who swears to be obedient to the regulations and carry out his duties impartially, it is wrong that there should be any interference to prevent him carrying out his duties in a straightforward and honest manner.
The case that Deputy O'Higgins referred to is open for any investigation. I am sure the Minister for Justice will have data on the files concerning this case, but he will not have on the files the private conversations that took place in this House between the ex-Minister for Justice, Deputy Boland, and the Deputy who was responsible for the removal of this Garda officer. I am not hurling wild charges. I am stating facts.
On this point I want to say that he is not stating facts. I rely on the Minister to be honest about this matter, and I believe he will be when he comes to reply.
If every Deputy, especially new Deputies, knew Deputy Boland as well as I do, they would not be surprised at my raising this matter.
Mr. Boland
Some of you over on that side have cause to know me.
Furthermore, it is the duty of a Deputy to guide a Minister as far as possible. I believe that in the past we have had several cases similar to the case that Deputy O'Higgins referred to. I join with Deputy O'Higgins in making an appeal that this Garda officer be transferred back to his former station in County Dublin in order that he may join his family, because sheer political victimisation was responsible for his removal. Strange things have been carried on in the past. Very strange and shady things have been done so far as the administration of the Department of Justice was concerned. I remember on one occasion——
The Deputy, of course, will remember that he can only deal with the last 12 months, not with things that happened some years ago.
Yes. I will deal particularly with nine of the last 12 months.
Mr. Boland
You can deal with nine years as far as I am concerned.
I made repeated requests in this House to be allowed to visit Portlaoghise Prison for the purpose of inspecting the conditions there and seeing for myself the interior of the institution. As a Deputy residing within five miles of the prison, which is being kept up on State funds, I believe I was entitled to see for myself the conditions under which prisoners were being treated. I made repeated applications to the Minister for Justice for permission to inspect the prison accompanied by the Governor, and on every occasion my request was turned down. I made my last appeal to the Minister in the debate on this Estimate last year and the reply that the Minister gave, the feeble reply, the foolish reply, the insame reply, and the unsound reply was that he would permit me to visit Portlaoighise Prison——
The Deputy must withdraw the word "insane".
Whatever you say.
The Deputy will withdraw it.
Yes.
Mr. Boland
I take it as a compliment coming from that source.
That is not to say that the person——
The Deputy will withdraw the word "insane" unconditionally and proceed to something else.
After making repeated applications for permission to visit the prison the Minister refused me permission and the reason that he gave in this House this time 12 months was that I was too young and that he would permit me to visit the prison when I grew up. That was the explanation and the reason that was given by a Minister of State in this House. That is recorded in the Official Reports.
Has the Deputy sought permission to visit the prison since 18th February last?
Yes, and I got permission to inspect the prison. I am about to make a statement on what I saw there. Immediately a change of Government came about, I asked for permission to visit the prison and without a moment's delay I was given permission. Another reason that the former Minister for Justice gave for refusing to allow me to inspect the prison was that he believed that if Deputy Flanagan was allowed to visit the prison he would not give a true account of what he saw. These words are recorded in the Official Reports of this House—that the Minister for Justice would not believe any statement that I might make after visiting the prison. I do not know what the ex-Minister may think of me——
Mr. Boland
The same as the three judges thought of you.
I shall deal with them in a few minutes. Certainly, the three of them and yourself would be a long time before you would get 14,000 votes. Remember, I had not a person in my constituency like the priest at Athleague who told you where you stood.
The Deputy will leave the judges out of it.
Who brought them in?
And the Church.
Deputy Boland was responsible for bringing them in.
I am informing the Deputy that he must leave the judges and the Church out.
I bow to your ruling. It would have been better during the sitting of the same court if Deputy Boland left the judges to themselves.
That is a very serious charge to make against judges.
The people are the best judges.
Very serious.
I happen to be one of the people and I can make up my own mind at any time.
If the Deputy goes further on that line, he will have to sit down. He cannot make charges against these judges.
I am not making any charges now against judges. I am only going to say, and to give this House——
Are you going to allow that to pass—that I, as Minister for Justice, interfered with the three judges? That is what he said.
He did not say that.
Mr. Boland
"If I had left the judges alone"—that is what he said. What did that mean, I ask you?
The Deputy will withdraw it in reference to the Minister and the judges.
On a point of order. Has the ex-Minister the right to say to Deputy Flanagan that that is not what the three judges thought of him? That is the start of this whole trouble.
Mr. Boland
I did not say that. I said my opinion of him was the same as the three judges'.
How do you know what the judges thought of him?
Mr. Boland
What they expressed in court.
The Deputy will withdraw the reference to the Minister and the judges.
I made no reference to the Minister for Justice whatever.
The ex-Minister for Justice, Deputy Boland.
Mr. Boland
That I approached the judges; that I interfered with them.
I feel the ex-Minister, as an experienced member of this House, should not have made this observation when he has come in at this late hour.
I have asked Deputy Flanagan to withdraw certain words. I will hear nothing else but the withdrawal.
I think Deputy Boland should not have come in at 9 o'clock to cause this trouble. We are here since 3 o'clock discussing the Estimate, and he comes in at 9 o'clock.
The Deputy is interrupting the Chair.
I was raising it on a point of order.
That is not a point of order.
I had a very important statement to make concerning conditions in Portlaoighise Prison.
I have asked the Deputy to withdraw the remark that the ex-Minister attempted to influence the judges, and so did, and the Deputy will withdraw it without asking the advice of his neighbours.
All right. I bow to your ruling. May I say, Sir, that Deputy Boland stated in this House that one of the reasons I would be debarred from visiting Portlaoighise was because I would give an untrue account of what I would see there? Is not that so?
Mr. Boland
Quite so.
That is what I want to get from the Deputy's lips. That is what Deputy Boland said.
Twelve months ago.
Exactly. On the occasion of his last Estimate.
Mr. Boland
I did say that, Sir.
I want to let Deputy Boland and this House see that I am prepared to speak with an open mind on what I saw within the four walls of Portlaoighise Prison, which I am quite entitled to do. When the present Minister for Justice permitted me to go in I was met by the Governor and was asked what part or what place in the prison I would like to see and was told that I could inspect any part I wished. I inspected the prison and, as a result of my inspection from stem to stern of the prison, it has gone up 100 per cent. in my estimation. I found the prisoners spotlessly clean.
I was given to understand that every prisoner must take his weekly bath, that the conditions as far as the health of the prisoners is concerned were excellent. I asked to see the cookhouse. I saw the food being prepared for the prisoners and, while they had not the same menu as would be produced in the Gresham or the Shelbourne Hotels, it was an excellent menu. There was plenty to eat for all the prisoners. There seemed to be a very good supply of butter and a supply of jam was available for all prisoners. I was given to understand that in recent months conditions have improved considerably.
May I say, in order that it may be placed on the records of the House, that we made many an appeal to the deaf ear of the former Minister for Justice for the release of the political prisoners? We on this side of the House thank God to-day that there are no political prisoners in Portlaoighise Jail, thanks to the Minister for Justice and to the Government. We have kept our promise. The men that we have been speaking about and fighting about in the past were locked up in that prison by the last and the past Government because of their political views and outlook. To-day, thank God, there is no man bound in chains or no man kept to stare at the dreary grey walls of a prison cell under this Government. Members of the House should express their appreciation to the Minister for Justice, to the Taoiseach and to the Government in general for the release of the political prisoners.
Year after year, came appeals from various Deputies for the release of these men. At last, we see them free men and they can take their place to-day with other citizens as free men. The men who kept them in chains and behind locks are meeting in groups, in despair, lamenting how they lost their power and lost the grip they had in the country. I am very proud I lived to see the day these men are free. I am glad that the Government have seen fit at last to comply with the wishes of Deputies and others, organisations and parties sympathetic to the release of those political prisoners.
I am given to understand, as a result of inquiries I made in the prison, that the prisoners are now not locked up until 7.30 whereas under the former regulations it was 4.30. I took it on myself to question various prisoners and to ask them were they properly and well treated, properly fed and well fed. I did not get one complaint. I questioned them with the Governor and without the Governor. I asked to go into the cells to see the beds. I picked out what cell I liked and had it opened. The beds were second to none.
There were five blankets on one bed. Those blankets were not used but I counted five blankets allocated to each cell. The cells were airy and are washed regularly and spotlessly clean. Each of the prisoners could smoke freely all he possibly could get to smoke. I found also that the prison farm was worked to its fullest productive capacity. It is a credit to the management of the institution. Some of the produce is sold at a profit. I walked through the farm and can safely say that the manner in which it is worked is a credit to all concerned.
I would respectfully recommend to the Minister for Justice that, instead of being locked up at 7.30—although I grant that that is a considerable relief to being locked up at 4.30 under the Fianna Fáil Government—that some system of useful work be adopted for the men from 7.30, say, until 10.30. I believe in view of the fact that many of these convicts cannot read and as they are locked up in their cells at 7.30 at night, they must find it very hard to put in their time and, therefore, I suggest that some useful work should be provided within the prison for them.
A Deputy
The pictures.
Well, in Portlaoighise prison there is a cinema, and films of a good, sound educational character are shown twice a week.
We will all want to get in then.
If Deputy Corish wishes to make a skit on the conditions in that prison he is free to do so. I am giving the House a true picture of the conditions within the prison as I saw them. Deputy Boland said that I would not do that. I think it would have been dishonest of me, so far as the present Minister for Justice and the prison staff are concerned, if I did not tell exactly what I saw. I believe that the conditions within the prison have considerably improved and from inquiries that I have made that they have improved in other prisons. I suggest to the Minister that the present type of uniforms supplied to prison warders is unsuitable and that a brighter and more attractive type should be supplied. The present tunics are of the old-fashioned type. I am sure the Minister will go into that and see that a more modern type of uniform is supplied with an open-neck shirt and tie. I think that it is only right that I should strongly recommend that on behalf of those people. I was very pleased to see the billiard rooms and the recreation rooms that are provided within the prison. Everything that could possibly be provided in the outside world is provided within the prison.
There was only one part of my visit to the prison that gave me thought for grave and serious consideration. I do not propose to elaborate on it but I do ask the Minister to lose no time in considering the question of having the remains of the two men who were shot within the prison removed to their native places. I asked the Governor if I could see their graves. Accompanied by the Minister for Health I was brought to the spot where these men are buried. When I looked at the graves I felt that I was ashamed to be an Irishman. It was unchristian. They are buried in the open yard in flattened out graves with a stone cover and with the end of a galvanised bucket to mark the grave of one of those men. It was kicked aside for the purpose of showing the Minister and myself where the bodies of these men lie. Now I am sure the Minister for Health will tell the Minister for Justice what he saw when he asked to see the graves left there in the open yard for convicts to trample and walk on. I will say no more. I could say quite a lot.
I ask the Minister to make arrangements for the removal of the remains of those two men to their home cemeteries and have them buried in consecrated ground. I am doing so as a Deputy, as a Christian and as a Catholic, and I trust that the words that I have used in this House to-night, as far as the remains of those two Irishmen that were murdered by the past Government are concerned, that their remains will rest in their own native graveyards. It was the only part of my visit to Portlaoighise Prison that was marked with sorrow and regret as far as I was concerned. I ask the Minister to consider most sympathetically the plea that I am making on my own behalf for the removal of the remains of these two men. I will say no more on that at the moment for several other reasons.
I am given to understand that within recent months an officer in the Department of Justice has been appointed as an inspector of prisons. I think it is not this year or last year that such an inspector should have been appointed. There always should have been an inspector of prisons. I am open to correction by the Minister as to whether or not there always was an inspector, but during the time of the Fianna Fáil Government I never heard of such an officer as an inspector of prisons.
I believe that if such an officer does his job conditions will be made better and brighter for those who are unfortunate enough to be locked up within the gates of those prisons. I believe that, as a result of the making of such an appointment, several improvements have been carried out in Portlaoighise and in other prisons as well. Such an officer can be very useful. I believe his functions are such that he can arrive at a prison unexpectedly and question prisoners as to their complaints, question attendants and question all those with any authority within the prison. I hope that such an officer will always be in existence. It will mean a betterment of prison conditions. I want to pay a very high tribute to the Minister that was responsible for the appointment of an inspector of prisons. It was an appointment that was long overdue, and I hope that the system will always prevail so that we will have an independent inspector of prisons to watch over and look after the conditions that prevail within the walls of a prison.
I believe that, in order to take their minds off the fact that they are convicts or prisoners, games should be provided for those who are in prison. I believe that inter-matches in hurling or football should be arranged between a team from the prison and a team from the town on the prison grounds. If such attractions were provided it would certainly help to fit those men to take their place amongst the community when the term of imprisonment had expired and I am sure that is the real aim of those responsible for the administration of prisons—to try and help those people so that they may be able to take their place amongst all the citizens when they are released from prison. I hope the Minister will be able to arrange that. It would also help to keep those men fit. Many of those men in the prisons are quite young and in order to keep them physically fit it is necessary that they should have as much exercise as possible. I ask the Minister, where it is possible, to encourage the establishment of football, hurling or other games amongst the prisoners. It would help to keep them fit and keep them in touch with the outside world if there were inter-matches between town teams and a prison team. If they are long-term prisoners that would make it easy and convenient for them to take their place amongst the community when they are released.
I hope and trust that Deputy Boland is satisfied to-night that I have given this House a true account of what I have seen in Portlaoighise Prison. I can assure you, Sir, and Deputy Boland, that if I had been admitted four or five years ago to Portlaoighise Prison I would have given as true an account them as I have given in this House to-night. If Deputy Boland is not prepared to accept my word for it there is nothing I can do about it. I went as far as to ask the Governor if I could see a cell known as "The Digger" that was so much under review in debates in this House in connection with the treatment of political prisoners. At my request the Governor escorted the Minister for Health and myself to that cell which is now unoccupied and clamped up with turf. I saw every part of the prison I asked to see.
I want to take this opportunity of saying to the Minister for Justice, through you, Sir, how much I appreciated the kindness of the Governor and his staff in showing me any part of the prison I desired to inspect. May I pay tribute to the way in which the grounds are kept, and the cleanliness and the healthy spirit which prevails in that prison? It has gone up 100 per cent in my estimation since I carried out that tour. If I did not say so I would be dishonest to the House, to the Governor and the staff of that institution, and to myself.
And to Deputy Boland.
May I make a reference to the question of the recent escapes from Mountjoy Prison? The only remark I want to make on that subject is that a great deal of public uneasiness has been created. I recommend that the Minister for Justice hold an inquiry as to how these escapes took place. I believe such an inquiry is necessary. The Minister should be equipped with whatever information is possible to satisfy himself that there was nothing whatever behind these escapes. I am not throwing any blame on the Governor or the staff of the prison—I want to make that quite clear—but I believe that this is a case where an inquiry should be held. I believe the Minister will make some reference to it in his reply. I feel sure that an inquiry of that nature would serve a very useful purpose.
Deputy S. Collins, I think, referred to political influence in the matter of judicial appointments. Again, in the case of the last Government, the machine was actively at work in the matter of political appointments even to the judiciary. Within the past 12 months I have, in this House, directed the attention of the previous Minister for Justice to the fact that a Fianna Fáil urban councillor was appointed an acting district justice any time he wished. I am not questioning that man's ability or his standing in law but I say that there were other men equally good as he available but that the rating that made it possible for him to qualify completely for his appointment as an acting district justice was the fact that he was a Fianna Fáil councillor not too far from the City of Dublin, well known in political circles, who did not deny that it was on account of his political affiliations that he was appointed acting district justice. I hope I shall not have to rise from this side of the House to speak about political appointments.
The former Minister for Justice can look back on his own past if he wants to know why he is sitting on that side of the House to-night. He can see clearly that it was because of political jobbery. It was bad enough for the ex-Minister's own Party to be going down but it was a dreadful thing to endeavour to pull the judiciary of the country down with them. I believe it is all for the best, and good for law and order and clean and efficient administration, that men such as Deputy Boland and his colleagues are sitting on the Opposition Benches to-night, and may God keep them there.
May I make a reference to Daingean Reformatory and ask the Minister for Justice to make an inquiry with regard to the conditions of the employees there? I understand that they are not being very well treated as far as a fair wage is concerned. I do not know what power or jurisdiction the Minister may have in the matter, but I would ask him to make special inquiries and to look into the matter himself in regard to the rates of pay and the hours of work of the night men and the other officers who work in Daingean Reformatory. The reformatory in question is conducted by the Oblate Fathers, but I believe the Minister for Justice is responsible for the appointment of staff there and for their rates of remuneration.
Now for the Garda Síochána. Deputies who happen to be members of local authorities, especially in urban areas, realise the grievance married members of the Garda Síochána have in regard to housing accommodation. The question of housing for the Garda Síochána is of very great importance. The Minister for Justice should consult with the Minister for Finance and with the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance, Mr. Donnellan, about getting the Board of Works to provide a special set of houses in every town for the members of the Garda Síochána. Every town where there is a Garda station with a sergeant and six or eight men should have at least six houses specially built by the Board of Works for the members of the force. They will then have no trouble in this matter and the members of local authorities will not have to be endeavouring to provide members of the Garda Síochána with housing accommodation.
I believe that this question will be tackled and that it is under consideration by the Government. The quicker action is taken in that respect the better. I know that in my constituency it has reached the stage where Gardaí are living in unhealthy houses with bad sanitary accommodation and sometimes even in old hovels. I have known cases of Gardaí who were glad to accept houses even though they had been condemned by the county medical officer of health. I could give the Minister umpteen instances of Gardaí who are living in those condemned hovels. A Garda has to live up to a certain standard. He is respected by all and everyone.
Progress reported.
Committee to sit again to-morrow.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Thursday, 24th June, 1948.