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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 5 Jul 1949

Vol. 117 No. 1

Estimates for Public Services. Committee on Finance. - Vote 68—Health (Resumed)

I would like to make an appeal to the Minister to extend the school medical services as much as possible and as soon as possible. I ask this because I am aware of the splendid results which have already accrued from the totally inadequate medical services we have now got in the schools. As it operates at the moment examinations are carried out within the first or second year of a child's entry into school and then there is usually only one other examination which occurs approaching the time when the child is about to leave school. That is a very great advance of course on the position operating 15 years ago when we were working in the schools without any kind of medical services whatever. But in the light of the good results that are now being achieved through these medical services I urge on the Minister to expand these services as soon as possible. The ideal thing would be to have a complete examination of every child in every school once a year. That may be too much to expect, but there should be a pretty complete examination of every child once in two years, which would mean that a child would be fairly thoroughly examined at least four times during his school life. I have seen a medical officer discover defects of vision, even defects of hearing, and chest and other defects in children which were quite unsuspected by parents, teachers or anyone else until the examination was made in the school, and I have seen children having their eyes attended to and other things done for them which would not have been done if this service were not in operation.

Another suggestion I would make is that, when the medical officer carries out his examination and inspection, a report should be furnished to the manager of the school as well as to the local authority, and it would be a good thing if these reports were retained in the school amongst the permanent records, so that, when the ordinary inspector comes in, he can query if the points referred to by the medical officer have been attended to, and, if they have not, will have an opportunity to consult the manager and ask him to have the points attended to. I am afraid that very often the first thing the manager knows about the opinion of the medical officer is when he sees some scare report in the public Press. That is the least helpful way of dealing with the matter. A report might be furnished to the manager of every school immediately after the medical examination has been carried out, and, in saying that, I have particularly in mind the condition of the lavatories and of the school yard and of the other matters which impinge so much on the health of the children. Another service which I think is completely inadequate is the dental service for school children. A great part of what is done is merely extraction of teeth and I do not think that that is enough. The service should be such that remedial measures, short of extraction, could be carried out, and that cannot be done without a very great extension of the existing facilities.

The matter of food in hospitals and institutions came up for discussion today. I have fairly considerable experience in this matter and I am satisfied that, in nearly all cases, the quality and quantity of food are quite good, but I am not at all satisfied that the preparation and presentation of the food are all that might be desired, or that it is always suited to the patients in these public institutions. A dietician should be appointed to every hospital of any size. We have here in Dublin an institution in Cathal Brugha Street where a very excellent course in dietetics is given. Students qualify in that subject and most of those who qualify have to leave the country and find employment in Britain or elsewhere, and it looked as if that very excellent course would have to be discontinued. It would give a great fillip to this training and great encouragement to that institution if those who qualified in dietetics there could obtain employment in our hospitals and public institutions and I should like the Minister to encourage in every possible way the appointment of a qualified dietician in our institutions.

It is not at all an easy matter for hospitals, sanatoria and institutions of that sort to keep an adequate domestic staff and this, too, has a good deal to do with food not being cooked and presented in the way it should be. It is extremely hard to keep the domestic staff in these institutions and very hard indeed to keep the nursing staff, because conditions are not good or tempting enough to hold them in the steady employment of these institutions. This applies particularly to the domestic staff. In one or two hospitals with which I am connected, we find it very difficult to retain our staff and we have constantly to chop and change. Although we do everything in our power to make the conditions as satisfactory as possible for these people, we cannot compete with conditions over in Britain.

Deputy Ryan urged the Minister to proceed with the implementation of the mother and child service provided for in the 1947 Act and he described it as the kernel of that Act. I quite agree with that. The mother and child service is, or should be, the foundation of any public health effort made in this or in any other country. The 1947 Act was a very admirable over-all plan for the betterment of health in this country and, whether we liked the Minister who put forward that plan or not, we must all admit that it was a very detailed and very excellent plan in almost every respect. It made the mother and child service the real foundation and I, too, urge the Minister to attack the whole problem of public health from that angle. To take full advantage of the legislation we have, it is possible to proceed in several ways, and I think the most logical thing to do would be to ensure that the mother and child service would be made as perfect as possible and then to take particular care of the health of our children in our schools, and especially in our primary schools. If we make sure of that foundation we can then go on to deal with all the other problems in their order of merit and of urgency.

There is no doubt but that very good progress is being made in the city of Dublin in the matter of the provision of beds for tuberculous patients. It is one of the things on which we can congratulate the Minister and the corporation authorities. It is now becoming possible to obtain equipment, so that we can get ahead very much more quickly than it was possible to do up to this year. I hope that progress will be continued until the terrible want that existed with regard to the hospitalisation of tubercular patients is fully met.

Another thing on which we have to congratulate ourselves is the virtual wiping out of diphtheria fatalities in the city of Dublin anyhow. The Dublin Fever Hospital Board Report for 1947, which is the latest one available, states that the fatality percentage for 1948 was nil. It might be said that one could not draw a legitimate general conclusion from the results for one year, but may I point out that there has been a steady decline from 1936 down to this year. That, I think, should be of great satisfaction to the members of this House. In 1936 the percentage was 12.5; in 1937, 9.1; 1938, 8.9; 1939, 7 per cent.; 1940, 5 per cent.; 1941, there was a rise to 8.9, but it fell again to 5.4 in 1942; in 1943 it was 5.1; 1944, 2.4; 1945, 2.4; 1946, 3 per cent.; 1947, 1.1, while in 1948, the year just concluded, the fatality was nil. Now that is a very wonderful result, and it really strengthens my plea that the mother and child services should now be attacked with at least as much energy and enthusiasm as have been devoted in the last year to the provision of beds for patients suffering from tuberculosis. Dr. Russell, who was the Chief Medical Officer for the city of Dublin, attacked this diphtheria problem with very great results. The children throughout the city have been immunised over the years that I have mentioned, and so Deputies can see the results of that care in a reduction of the fatality rate from 12.5 in 1936 to nil in 1948.

The Corporation of Dublin also launched a great attack on gastroenteritis with almost equally gratifying results. All that goes to show that if our various problems are attacked with resolution and determination, and particularly if we start with the mother and child, and in the primary schools, that most wonderful results are possible. I hope that, no matter what the financial stringency may be, the Minister for Health will insist that these services be extended and improved, and that when the various hospitals and institutions make little demands on his Department, that they will be met as generously as possible by the Department. I am sure, in so far as the Minister's own inclination goes, that that will be the case.

I might give another instance of the value of these services which, I know, cost a little money. I might mention the results of the use of streptomycin in cases of tubercular meningitis. Previously this disease was absolutely fatal, and there was no hope at all for the patient. It is still a bit early to draw a general, final conclusion as to what will eventuate from the continued use of streptomycin, but we have found that it prolongs life to a marvellous extent. So far, in the case of a disease that previously was absolutely fatal, since we introduced streptomycin we have found that we have been able to save from 30 to 50 per cent of the cases. Of course, that can only be done if we are prepared to undergo the expense, to provide the money and equipment necessary. I hope the Department will show itself to be sympathetic and helpful and, above all, that it will not hold up the local authorities unnecessarily when requests of one sort or another come up for consideration.

I have said that we found it difficult to keep the nursing staffs attached to our hospitals. That will remain the case until we give them as good treatment in our hospitals as they can get elsewhere. There, again, I know the Minister is in full sympathy, but I will urge him to do everything possible to make life as pleasant as possible for the nurses in our institutions.

On this Estimate it is necessary for me, as a member of a local authority in Cork County, to bring to the Minister's notice how we have been affected, so far as a certain portion of that county is concerned, due to the fact that we have had to hand over our hospital at Mallow some 12 months ago for the care and treatment of tuberculosis. At that time the Minister for Health gave the local authority a guarantee that he would do everything possible to meet their requirements so far as hospital accommodation is concerned. Quite recently the Department of Health made known to the local authority that it was prepared to sanction the erection of one cottage hospital in North Cork. We believed, at the time we handed over Mallow hospital, that we would be entitled to get two cottage hospitals in North Cork. We discovered that during the past month the committee decided upon the erection of one hospital in order to comply with the Minister's demand and, apparently, that hospital is going to be erected in a certain area, which will leave the greater portion of the northern health area of Cork County without any hospital.

I should like to impress on the Minister that, so far as the erection of one cottage hospital in North Cork is concerned, he should give very careful consideration to the demand put forward for the erection of two cottage hospitals, and, before he makes any decision, he should give particular consideration as to where these hospitals will be erected. I believe the Minister has certain powers under the Public Health Act. He can, I believe, order an inquiry to be held before any hospital is erected and I urge him to carry out such an inquiry, because I believe it is very necessary that one of the cottage hospitals should be erected in Charleville town, in North Cork.

There are two matters I wish to bring to the notice of the House. I wish, first of all, to protest against the attitude adopted by the Minister for Health, in company with the Minister for Local Government and the Minister for Social Services, towards local authorities. An official of a local authority is an official either of that authority or of the Local Government Department. At practically every meeting of our local authority we have been inundated with circulars—they are tripping over one another—from the Minister's Department. We are told in these circulars that the Minister has been requested by some local authorities to suggest that there would be no difficulty in getting sanction for an increase in salaries, or something else, every week. I consider that attitude is the attitude of a dictator, and it is removing from local authorities any semblance of power left to them.

If an official of a local authority has any complaint to make about his salary or anything else, let him make it to the local authority and look for whatever increase he wishes. It should not come down from Dublin to the local authority. To my mind, it is completely ignoring the local authority concerned. My sole object in bringing that matter up here is to endeavour to end it by some means other than kicking up a row over it. I had to make the same complaint in regard to the Department of Social Services last week. It seems a set policy between all three Departments.

The next thing I want to deal with runs along different lines. I wish to thank the Minister for the courteous manner in which he has received deputations from Cork during the past 12 months and I also wish to thank him for the decent manner in which he has treated us in regard to any grants or anything else we require. I must say the Minister's attitude in these matters was most fair and courteous.

Deputy McAuliffe alluded to Mallow Hospital, and I must say I am very much disappointed over the position as regards Mallow Hospital. It was taken over by the Minister some 14 months ago. At that time 20 of the beds in that hospital had to be occupied by some of the nursing staff and arrangements were immediately made for the erection of a couple of military huts that would afford accommodation for the nursing staff and leave the beds available for patients. To my amazement, at the meeting last week we found that that was the subject of a wrangle between the contractors and some officials of the Minister's Department. I am sure the Minister is interested enough in this matter to be anxious that the erection of a couple of military huts, in order to give accommodation to 20 patients in the hospital, should not be hanging fire for so long.

Another thing I wish to deal with is that the Minister wrote to the South Cork Board of Public Assistance looking for any available accommodation that might be suitable for tubercular patients. That was about 14 or 15 months ago. He was then offered some buildings, one being the Macroom Fever Hospital. That was then turned down, but now he has accepted, after the lapse of 14 months. To my mind things like that should not occur. I would appeal to the Minister to hand back the hospitals. I would appeal to him to cut out the red tape. I am sure he will admit that he has received every co-operation both from the board of assistance and from the county council in Cork. I would urge him to let no red tape stand in the way of having these hospitals prepared as quickly as possible. In Cork at the present moment we have between 70 and 80 tuberculous patients on a waiting list. Having them on that list is practically condemning them to death. That is one reason why I am anxious these matters should be cleared up.

The Minister has a rather free tongue as regards complaints of the previous Administration and the manner in which they operated. On the 8th April, 1948, he said, in connection with the sanatorium at Sarsfield Court: "I was asked shortly after my coming into office to sign a document relating to a letting to enable cattle and sheep to be grazed on the site. That is an example of the rate of progress of the last Government." That was a complaint made on the 8th April, 1948. I happened to pass by Sarsfield Court about a month ago and I saw there big hairy bullocks with long horns which would gladden the heart of the Minister for Agriculture. This morning, having nothing else to do, I was looking over the Cork Examiner. I found the following advertisement:—

"Cork County Council. Tenders for grazing. Tenders are invited for the grazing of 59 acres, more or less, of the lands of Sarsfield Court, Glanmire, for a period of six months from 1st August, 1949 subject to termination by the Minister for Health on one month's notice."

We are back in the same position as we were in April, 1948. The only difference is that the previous Administration certainly knew when to let. They would not let land for grazing in the month of August. That is the condition of affairs at the moment as regards Sarsfield Court. When we gave the hospital over to the Minister on a five year letting we believed that he would do everything in his power to speed up the building of sanatoria at Sarsfield Court and elsewhere. This delayed action on the part of the Minister and his Department is wrong. If it was wrong for the previous Administration it is equally wrong for the present Administration. The previous Administration suffered under the disability that building materials were not available. There is no excuse now for not going ahead with building. I appeal to the Minister to put an end to whatever wrangling is impending the erection of the huts at Mallow. Surely they should not be left hang fire for 14 months. At least 20 patients out of the 76 on the waiting list could be provided with beds if these huts were erected. Possibly their lives might be saved.

What about the agreement about Mount Desert? Did you not block the whole thing?

My job as a representative of the ratepayers in Cork is to protect the interests of the ratepayers by every means in my power. Since Deputy Keane has mentioned this matter, some years ago we made an agreement with the authorities of Mount Desert under which we paid a sum of about £10,000 of the ratepayers money for a certain number of beds. The Minister was anxious to take it over. He said he wanted it for children. We offered nine beds for children. Surely, that would not interfere with the scheme. Apparently the Minister wanted to get the authorities in Mount Desert out of the financial bargain they had made with the ratepayers. As a representative of the ratepayers, it was my duty to protect their interests. I have no apology to make for anything I did. Deputy Keane will have an opportunity of explaining his side of the story. That is the position as regards Mount Desert as far as I am concerned.

If the Minister considers that any action of ours is wrong, here and now is the time to bring us to heel. It is my duty to protect the ratepayers, and I did that. I object strenuously to the Minister saying that his predecessor did nothing and that he neglected this, that and the other, particularly when he, in turn, follows in the same beaten track without the justification that his predecessor had. The emergency is finished now and opportunities for building are there. It was impossible for the Minister's predecessor to carry on any building during the emergency. I expect the Minister to speed things up now. I expect him to hand back those hospitals to the local authority as soon as he conveniently can. We cannot afford delays at the present time. There was a hold-up of practically six months in regard to the regional hospital and the maternity hospital in Cork. The Minister was only a short time in office when he sent for the county manager and myself to discuss this matter with him. We came up and discussed it with him and we were informed then that particulars in regard to the maternity hospital would be sent down the next week, but the whole matter was held up for six months. We did not discover until after six months had passed that the Minister was negotiating with two bodies at the same time. He was negotiating with Dr. O'Rahilly in University College, Cork, for some kind of hospital, and negotiating with us. Nobody knows who was responsible for the hold-up but I think that responsibility for the delay in the provision of plans and specifications must be laid at the door of either Dr. O'Rahilly or the Minister—I do not know which. These are matters with which I should like the Minister to deal as quickly as possible so that there may be no further delay.

I am afraid that after listening to Deputy Dr. Ryan this evening I must have developed a very bad complex. I heard a most amazing account of a service that should be given but was not given and perhaps that will now be given. I am not too sure whether I saw it in its proper perspective or not. As chairman of the health committee for County Cork, which nobody will gainsay is one of the largest counties in the Republic of Ireland, I can state that from the time the present Minister took over the Department, he has speeded up everything appertaining to health by 100 per cent in my estimation. I am not, nor do I think I should be expected to be, in a position to give statistics. All I can give are approximate figures, but I can say that so far as tuberculosis is concerned in County Cork, we have increased the number of beds by 100 per cent. I am sure Deputy Dr. Ryan will not contradict me when I say that when this Estimate was before the House last year we had a certain number of beds, and this year we have 100 per cent more and within one month, we shall have approximately 200 per cent more beds in Cork County. This is all due to the efforts of our young, energetic Minister, who handled the question as it should be handled.

I am not going to enter into recriminations with regard to Deputy Dr. Ryan's statement. I believe that Deputy Dr. Ryan did good work for the short time he was Minister for Health. That is only what I would expect from Deputy Ryan, but unfortunately I am afraid that he never did handle the position as he should have handled it. I am afraid that Deputy Dr. Ryan was a little too "flaithiúilach." I do not blame him; perhaps more blame should be attached to the brass hats of his Department at that time. Deputy Hickey has asked me are they there still. I shall be charitable and say that the only way I can explain the matter is that a rose by any other name smells the same.

The Minister is responsible to this House. Civil servants are not, directly.

If I transgressed, I am sorry, but I think you should blame Deputy Hickey.

I did not hear Deputy Hickey and if the Deputy accepts a prompt, I cannot help him.

Very good. I should like to say a word in regard to the health regulations. I am sure these regulations were drawn up with a view to a certain political idea. I am afraid they were drawn up in the vortex of the general election campaign of 1947-48. However, it must be said for these regulations that there are some good points in them and also some very bad ones. From time to time we have had occasion to send memos, to the present Minister with regard to these regulations and I must say that on every occasion he gave the matter brought to his attention his careful consideration. In 90 per cent. of the cases he gave us the interpretation we desired, namely, to benefit the individual without any consideration of saving to the State. There were times when we had to send peculiar cases to him, cases that were not provided for in the hurriedly conceived regulations. There was one particular case where a wife, who was the breadwinner of a family, developed tuberculosis. An allowance, however, could not be made to her that could be made to her husband if he were the breadwinner. In this case the husband was in receipt of workmen's compensation of 16/- per week and the wife was the breadwinner of the family. Just because the word "he" was used instead of "she", that woman could not get the allowance under the regulations of the Public Health Act. I should like to bring that case to the notice of the Minister.

I should also like to bring before him the case of the district hospital in Mitchelstown. This hospital was decided on at a recent meeting of the Northern Committee of the Cork Board of Health and Assistance. There was a hospital there under the old British régime. As a matter of fact, at that time there were a workhouse, a hospital and a fever hospital there. But, under the amalgamation scheme, these institutions were done away with and it was decided to build a hospital for Mitchelstown under the 1923 Local Government Act.

I heard Deputy Dr. Ryan speaking this evening about county hospitals and I think he was absolutely correct in what he said. Whatever we may think of the old British régime, we must agree with the way in which they allocated their district hospitals. The border hospitals established at that time were very convenient for the people. I am sure the Minister, when considering the allocation of hospitals during the coming year, will give sympathetic consideration to the border hospitals for Cork and Limerick.

I have listened from time to time here to references to the proposed regional hospital in Sarsfield Court, Cork. I am sorry Deputy Corry is not here. He is the man who prevented the hospital from being built there. He came in here to-night and spoke with another voice. But at a meeting of the health committee of Cork County Council, when the Minister asked us if we would agree to abrogate an agreement by which we would benefit to the extent of about £15,000, Deputy Corry, the full-back of the Fianna Fáil Party, the obstructionist in word and in deed, was there to stop it. I am afraid that the Minister, in starting off in his campaign, will be beset by a lot of traps. The people who prepare the traps are the people on the Opposition side of the House. I make that statement and have no apology to give for making it, and if any of them like to contradict me let them do so. I can start from the Chest Hospital in Mallow to St. Colman's Hospital in Macroom at the moment. All those who were so solicitous about the health of the people put traps and snares in front of the Minister and put every obstacle in his way.

Deputy Corry, the "bulavauny" of the Fianna Fáil Party is the gentleman who thinks at all times that he can attack everybody. I wonder if he remembers what happened at Cork County Council last April 12 months? If he does I am sure he will be the very last man to talk about the efforts of the Minister in trying to do his best to improve the health of the people. Last week in Cork, Deputy Corry, fortified with the knowledge of the Managerial Act, attacked the county manager for making a special order to provide alternative medical services for Cork County Home when the resident medical surgeon was absent or on holidays. Incidentally, he claimed that he was perfectly right in doing that because Mr. Joseph Wrenn, before he made his order, did not consult with the mental hospital committee. I wonder if Deputy Corry took into consideration what would happen the 1,500 lunatics if this order had not been implemented and if the doctors concerned did not take up their jobs. I am sure he is so solicitous regarding the ratepayers of Cork County that he gave every consideration to that before he made his famous speech, where he proved that there was about one-sixteenth of a farthing in the £ difference between what the medical officer should get and what Deputy Corry would give him. I am very sorry he has gone to-night out of this House. He never listened to the truth and never will listen to it. He always ran away from it and will always run away from it. I make that statement here to-night and he can contradict it any time he likes.

I again ask the Minister to give every consideration to the district hospital for Mitchelstown which will provide for the needs of the old No. 2 district rural area, with which I am sure the Minister is conversant, that is, on the Limerick side of it. I would ask him also to give his attention to the memos. sent up to him by the Cork Health Committee regarding the health regulations. Whilst he has given every consideration and has removed some anomalies, I would ask him to review the matter and make an effort to help the recipients to get what they should get.

In regard to Mallow Chest Hospital, I would suggest to the Minister to give every consideration to the recommendation of the sanatorium committee of Cork County in awarding Dr. O'Leary and Dr. Condron £200 extra. Those two men have done more for the prevention and cure of tuberculosis in Cork County than any other two men in the Republic of Ireland at the moment. I am sure also the Minister will look after the salaries of the lowerlevel officials under his control. I refer to attendants and nurses. Undoubtedly, he has made amazing improvements in their salaries, but I firmly believe there is still a lot to be done to give them the remuneration to which they are justly entitled. I am sure that the Minister, irrespective of the opinion of certain bodies, irrespective of the statements that were made here with regard to dictatorship, will give every consideration to the salaries of those people and will step them up proportionately and make them attractive so that in future we will not have to look for attendants or nurses. I will conclude by saying that I hope, if I should be here in 1950, that I will be in a position to pay the same credit to the Minister for Health as I have paid to him this evening.

Mr. Brennan

There are a few points to which I would like to draw the Minister's attention. The first is in regard to the most inadequate accommodation that is provided in dispensaries in rural districts. Patients who are compelled to attend the dispensary have in some cases to remain outside what is called a dispensary, perhaps in rain and certainly in the cold. To my mind that is nothing short of a disgrace. People who are compelled to attend dispensaries once a week, people suffering from ill-health in some form or another, people who have to attend there in order to qualify for certain moneys to which they are entitled at least expect to have a waiting-room with proper seating accommodation and heating. I would ask the Minister to facilitate local authorities in every way he can, by financial support and otherwise, to ensure that proper accommodation will be provided in dispensaries in all areas even to the extent of providing new dispensaries where the present dispensaries are unsuitable or are incapable of reconstruction.

On the question of hospitalisation generally, we in the County Wicklow have been looking for a county hospital for quite a number of years. For certain reasons, when the going was good, pre-war, I suppose those responsible were not quick enough off their mark and other counties got in before them but, at last, we have reached a stage where a county hospital for Wicklow has been decided upon and a site has been acquired. Fourteen months ago the Minister paid a visit to the Wicklow County Council to discuss hospitalisation and other matters connected with his Department and heard the question of the county hospital discussed. He was well received by all Parties and I think he was convinced that the council, as a council, irrespective of Party, wanted to give every help they could to the Minister in order to provide the necessary hospitalisation for the county. At that conference, if I may so describe it, during the discussion on the county hospital and the proposed fever hospital, reference was made to the Baltinglass Hospital which serves the western and southern portion of the county. While, as I have said, the county hospital had been agreed upon and a site acquired, nevertheless the project is still in abeyance and will remain in that condition until such time as a proper water supply is provided for the area in which it is proposed to erect the hospital. In the case of the Baltinglass Hospital a scheme had been planned and four or five years ago, when the matter was discussed with him, the proposed scheme was agreed upon by the then Parliamentary Secretary. Plans were prepared by the county engineer. When the plans were prepared the council were informed by the Department that the proper person to prepare drawings, and so forth, for the particular work concerned was an architect —a statement and a ruling with which I perfectly agree. Since then, drawings have been in course of preparation. From time to time individuals from that portion of the county interested in the Baltinglass hospital—as I am very much interested in it myself— raised questions about the work that was proposed to be carried out there —when would the plans be ready and when was the work going to start, and questions of a similar nature. But changes in plans and delays of one kind or another delayed the whole matter until about seven or eight months ago.

About seven or eight months ago I, as one member of a sub-committee appointed by the Wicklow County Council, met the architects' representatives at Baltinglass hospital to inspect the drawings and plans in general of the proposed works. Certain modifications were suggested and the plans were brought back but, apparently, the modifications suggested had not the sanction of the architects of the Department. That was eight months ago and even up to the present time we are still waiting for whatever revision the architects of the Department insist on having in those plans. We are still waiting to hear that the plans have been sanctioned by the Department so that the work can go ahead. I maintain that it is absolutely essential that if there is any dilly-dallying—and I can assure the Minister that those of us who are members of that council have definitely come to the conclusion that there is some ulterior motive for holding up the sanction of the plans and thus enable this work to be proceeded with—that dilly-dallying should end. To my mind, anyhow, if, after eight months, there are still no definite plans for this job—or at least plans that will receive the definite sanction of the Minister or the O.K. of the senior officer in the architectural world, so far as the Department is concerned—it is a strange state of affairs. I do not believe for one moment that in respect of the period that has elapsed since the meeting of that sub-committee with the architects' representatives to discuss the drawings and plans prepared at the time, whatever little revision was needed by the Department should have taken eight months to put on paper. This hospital is looked upon by the people of West and South Wicklow as an outstanding institution. The medical officer in charge of that hospital is looked upon by these people as an outstanding medical man. He is a man who devotes his whole time to his work. He is a man who is prepared to take on a certain type of work that is really not his job, I understand, as medical officer at Baltinglass hospital. Because he is a man who has a love for his work and because he is a man who has proved himself a success in his work, the Minister should bring pressure to bear upon those responsible for withholding the sanction, if it is so, in respect of the drawings and plans necessary for the carrying out of this essential work.

The Minister should bring pressure to bear on those people in order that the community as a whole in the area covered by this hospital shall reap the benefit of the facilities to be given under these proposed annexes and so forth, that the nursing staff will get the accommodation that they need and, in particular, that that medical officer, Dr. Lyons, be placed in a position whereby he can carry out his work with complete satisfaction to himself and with complete satisfaction to the community as a whole.

Reference was made in this House to-night to Newcastle Sanatorium and to works that are being executed there in order to provide a certain number of beds. I am not going to discuss the general work in the sanatorium in regard to the provision of beds but I should like to mention a point in regard to the nurses' home which it was proposed to build on the site in order to provide proper housing accommodation for the nursing staff. By way of temporary accommodation a particular property was acquired, the house of this property being a distance of approximately one and a half miles from the sanatorium buildings. A sum of money to the extent of £10,000 was paid for this property and, towards that £10,000, a grant from the Hospitals' Trust Fund to the extent of £7,500 was given— which, of course, the Minister sanctioned. What I would like to know from the Minister is whether this home which at present houses the nursing staff of Newcastle Sanatorium is only a temporary accommodation and, if so, when the nurses' home that is to be erected has been completed and occupied, what does the Minister or the people concerned with this property, acquired for the abnormal sum of £10,000, of which £7,500 came as a free grant, intend to do.

I would like the Minister in his reply to answer that question because it seems to me that the outlay of £10,000 for temporary accommodation is abnormal and I think some explanation is due to the general public when such a sum is spent and a grant towards it of £7,500 is sanctioned by the Minister which, to my mind, could be diverted to some other area or towards some more deserving object in County Wicklow. Of course the general public have their own view about that expenditure and I can assure the Minister that their comments are of anything but a complimentary nature to all parties concerned who were prepared to spend £10,000 on the acquisition of that property.

There is just one other matter to which I would like to refer, the question of religious orders in charge of institutions. There seems to be of late a tendency to decry and belittle the work carried out by religious communities. The religious communities who carry out nursing work deserve, I think, more from the public than that individuals or groups of individuals should strive to belittle them. I know that even in my own county when in preparation of the potential staff for the county hospital a suggestion was thrown out—no doubt both sides of the question were put to us for our view —by an irresponsible officer that that institution whenever it is erected should be staffed by lay nurses. While I am a member of that council I will certainly oppose that suggestion as far as I possibly can.

I do not think I have anything further to say except to ask the Minister to give us the information when he is replying. It may not come to the Minister's ears but it is information in which the general public in the area have an interest. The information I want is whether the present property acquired for that abnormal sum is to be of only a temporary nature and if so what is the intention of the Minister or of those who can claim control over the property as to its disposal or use when the nursing home is completed and occupied.

How many nurses are in the house? Would you mind paying £7,000 for 100 nurses what you would pay for 10? Did you bother to find it out.

Mr. Brennan

Are you prepared to answer the question?

I will answer, do not worry. I thought you might have made some intelligent inquiries.

Mr. Brennan

Is it of a temporary nature?

I will answer in due time.

This is not a cross-examination.

I wondered if the Deputy took an intelligent interest in it, that is all.

The Minister in the course of his outline here last Friday gave some particulars of the proposals for the coming seven years for building hospitals. He told us in January this year that hospital building to the extent of £500,000 or £600,000 annually was in progress and he hoped to step that up before the end of the present year. It is now July and the Minister might well tell us what progress has been made in commencing works which were not commenced in January. The rate of building, from information I got in respect of a couple of those institutions, is very slow and I am afraid that the progress and output of beds per annum in any foreseeable time is going to be very slow. In spite of anything the Minister can do to push on matters, he is not going to get a big lot of new beds in a short period. Assuming the beds will cost about £3,000 per bed, the Minister can estimate that £500,000 will not get him very far and that it will take him three or four years to build the hospitals.

Unless you can get the £2,000,000 programme into operation immediately the output of beds in the next few years is going to be very low. I understand that materials are now in good supply for hospitals, in most respects, and the Minister should press on much faster with the work. Even with a £5,000,000 or £6,000,000 scheme in operation the Minister's output of beds would not be very appreciable in the next five or six years.

The Minister should not be afraid to start on his schemes because it will take him a long time to finish the work. No matter how many units are started over the country they could not ensure the building of the hospitals by local authorities. If, however, a number of units were started simultaneously spread over the whole country from Donegal to Cork and from Kerry to the East coast the Minister would have some chance of getting the bulk of what he must do done within a certain period of years. Certainly if he cannot get a greater bulk than the £500,000 a year started this year in the matter of hospitals he is going to have a very small output.

In the course of his statement the Minister stated that an additional 1,200 beds had been provided this year for the treatment of all forms of tuberculosis. He did not, however, tell the House how many of these beds were provided in new hospitals. I doubt if any of them were provided in new buildings at all, but believe that they were put into existing buildings which were reconditioned or refurnished. So far as I can see I do not think that he told the House that work had been started on any of the new sanatoria. The foundations have been put in in connection with the one in Galway, but, apart from this, little else appears to have been started.

I am afraid that it will be quite a long time before we see these three regional sanatoria completed, as it will take a minimum of five years from the time they are started until they are completed. I wonder if I am right in that calculation? We can, of course, all see the difficulties the Minister is up against at the present time in getting very large buildings like these sanatoria started. The Minister must admit, however, that quite a considerable time has been devoted to the question of building these sanatoria and they have been a live issue in the country for a number of years now. Everybody would like to see progress being made in getting them under way.

Local authorities throughout the country seem to think that they have serious cause for complaint against the Department in one particular direction. In the provision of the 1,200 additional beds, to which the Minister referred, the Minister insisted on the local authority in Wexford using the recreation rooms, in the small sanatorium there for the provision of extra beds. While these extra beds are undoubtedly of importance I question whether the taking away of the recreation facilities from the patients, who have to stay in the sanatorium, is the best means of providing the accommodation. A further cause of complaint is that no additional capital expenditure is allowed.

I did not insist on the recreation rooms being used; I made a recommendation.

The use of these places was a recommendation. I did not insist.

There was more than a recommendation.

It was a recommendation. They need not have done it if they did not want to.

That is so.

Well, then, why not say so? It is dishonest to say that it was insisted upon.

When the Minister insists on getting on with the work that is more than a recommendation.

It is a recommendation and insistence is an order.

It is insistence now.

This is a free country and you can refuse to do a thing if you wish, and nobody knows that better than the Deputy.

I was questioning the wisdom of using up the accommodation needed by the patients for their recreation.

Is the Deputy opposed to the provision of the extra beds?

No. I am trying to explain that I disagree with the Minister's policy of taking away these recreation facilities for the provision of these beds. It should not be done in that way. The Wexford County Council have no objection to providing the beds, and are willing to do it, but they do not like to see the patients' amenities taken away in doing that work.

According to my information the local authorities can get no grants from the Hospitals' Trust Fund for the provision of these beds. If it is the policy of the Department to increase the bed accommodation for tuberculous patients that should be a first call on the Hospitals' Trust Fund, and the capital expenditure which local authorities will undertake. I do not see anything wrong about that. Local authorities have in the past been providing these institutions and getting a full grant for tuberculosis and 75 per cent. grants for medical health institutions. I think the Minister would be wrong in refusing to give grants to local authorities who are prepared to undertake capital expenditure in the matter of extra accommodation for tuberculosis purposes.

Has it been refused to the Deputy's county?

It has been indicated to them that it will not rank for recoupment.

What will not?

Additional expenditure of a capital nature.

For tuberculosis?

Yes. Additional expenditure of a capital nature, of whatever type it might be, should be provided in full, I suggest, and should rank as as a first charge on those funds.

With regard to the operation of the Health Act, only portion of the Act is in operation yet and, generally speaking, it has operated pretty smoothly. There were difficulties about the allowances to patients suffering from contagious diseases, but on the whole things worked reasonably smoothly, notwithstanding the fact—and this should be appreciated in the Department as in other Government Departments—that local authorities and their staffs are now working under three Ministries. Up to a year or two ago, there was only one Minister, but now they have to contend with three, each pressing to have his own particular branch of the work given first preference and the full attention of these staffs. There is the Minister for Health, the Minister for Local Government and the Minister for Social Welfare, each pressing to have his own particular work in a local authority area looked after and given the attention of the staffs. That is unfair and has created any difficulties which local authorities have had in the past year.

The fact that they have to work under three separate Ministries has created problems for the local authorities. It means increasing their clerical staffs and creates other difficulties also and I hope the Minister will keep that in mind. The Minister's work is all important and needs looking after, I agree, but the work of the Minister for Local Government, especially in the matter of the provision of houses, making roads and similar services, needs looking after also. Local authorities are limited in the numbers of their staffs. The tendency has been to increase them down the years, and, if there is very heavy pressure from any of these Ministries, it means a further increase in staffs and a further increase in rates. The grants under the Health Services (Financial Provisions) Act will very soon run out and local authorities are going to find, in the course of a few years, that they are footing the bill again.

Half the bill.

They will be footing portion of it again.

Half the bill—there is a difference.

The margin will be eaten up before the local authorities know where they are, and, with the increasing demands on the rates in other directions, the Minister will find that local authorities, when they have to pay their portion again in the very near future, will be very slow to increase these services. The matter needs great care from both the angle of the Minister's Department and of the local authorities to see that the burden on the ratepayers is not made greater than they can bear. That is the general fear amongst most local authorities, that, within a very short period, they will reach a stage at which a burden will be imposed on them which they may be unable to bear. That is the difficulty which local authorities are facing at present.

I cannot see in the Minister's statement any reference to rheumatism and to the provision of treatment for rheumatism and rheumatic diseases. I saw returns quite recently in respect of national health insurance and I found that the number of days lost by people suffering from different rheumatic complaints was very high. The incidence of rheumatism in this country, due to the damp climate, is, unfortunately, higher than in most other countries, and the Minister might tell the House how the rheumatism clinic in Mount street is progressing and whether it is intended, as I believe it was intended by the Minister's predecessor, to have similar clinics in Cork, Galway and other centres. Is it the intention to open similar clinics in these centres; and, if so, will they be opened in the near future? There is a growing demand all through the country for treatment for rheumatic complaints, and, but for the fact that the past 12 months have been so dry and fine, the demand would be even greater. I want to impress on the Minister the necessity for getting something done in that direction.

Some time during the past year I had occasion to complain that the Minister's Department had adopted a very undesirable policy of according prior sanction and notifying local authorities of prior sanction to increases in salaries and wages. We hear a lot about democracy and democratic institutions in this House and from platforms down the country, but the Minister will agree that that is anything but a democratic way of doing business. As I said before, there may be a reason and these increases in salaries and wages to staffs of local authorities may be necessary and desirable, but often the first a local authority hears of them is when a letter is received from the Department of Local Government or the Department of Health informing them that, if they provide the money, they may pay increased salaries or wages to certain members of their staffs. That is putting the cart before the horse. It is time enough for the Minister to sanction them when the proposals are put up by the county manager or county council or other local authority concerned.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again to-morrow.
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