Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 13 Jul 1949

Vol. 117 No. 6

Irish News Agency Bill, 1949— Second Stage.

Minister for External Affairs (Mr. MacBride)

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time. This Bill is intended to provide for the creation of an Irish news agency. I think it might be well if, at the outset, I gave some indication to the House of the various considerations which prompted the Government to take this step.

During the last century, until nearly the end of the last century, international affairs were the preserves of Governments and of diplomacy. The ordinary public of different countries had little knowledge of international affairs and could exercise little influence over their development. The change that has taken place since the end of the 19th century was largely due to the advent of the printing presses, the coming into existence of newspapers, first of all periodicals and then daily newspapers with local circulation, and, finally, national newspapers as we know them now. At first newspapers used to gather their information from special correspondents or qualified writers with specialised knowledge of international affairs, who used to write feature articles on international affairs once a week or once a month.

News agencies came into active operation in the early part of this century. The oldest news agency is what is now known as Reuters. It was founded by Julius Reuter, who was a clerk in a commercial firm in the City of London in the 1850's. It was founded then purely as a one-man concern for the purpose of obtaining commercial intelligence and of distributing that commercial intelligence to various business firms in the city. In a short space of time the value of the commercial intelligence supplied by this young man, who grew rapidly in stature and wealth, was appreciated in the business circles of London. Around 1858 he branched out into general news, but it still remained a private concern until 1865, when it was formed into a private limited company. It remained a private limited company until 1926.

The growth of news agencies can be related, firstly, to the growth in literacy and in the development and circulation of newspapers as a medium of information and, secondly, to the development of means of communication. As I indicated in referring to the growth of Reuters, originally a large portion of the work of news agencies was related to the dissemination of business information, stock exchange prices, and even racing information. Of course, the development of means of communication was a very important feature, because it increased the value of the stock exchange and racing information that became available.

But, if the origin of news agencies can be traced to business, stock exchange or even racing reasons, it had a profound influence on the development of democracy. Democracy could only function properly if the people of the country had sufficient information on current matters to enable them to exercise judgment. In the last century, and even in the begining of this century, the man in the street had little or no opportunity of obtaining information or keeping himself au fait with international affairs. As a result of the development of national newspapers and of news agencies, gradually public opinion came to be more influential in relation to foreign policy. The advent and development of the wireless also intensified the improvement of public thinking. Now, the supply of accurate and objective information concerning news and developments in other countries has come to be an essential part of the democratic system. It is quite obvious that without the supply of projective and reliable news, public opinion would not be in a position to exercise its judgment on public affairs and on foreign policy. And so we have reached the stage where practically every country in the world has its own news agency. The closeness, or otherwise, of the relationship which exists between the different national news agencies and their Governments varies. Some have been very closely related to their Government or directly run by their Government; others have had a very much more remote control operated through special facilities of one kind or another. We, here, have been the exception. We have had no independent Irish news agency. To a certain extent that has been due to our historical development. To a certain extent it is only in the last 25 years or so that we have gained control of our own affairs and we have had many preoccupations, political and otherwise since, which probably precluded us from devoting the time and attention we should have devoted to matters of that kind.

As to the importance and function of national news agencies and of sources of news, I should like, with the permission of the House, to quote one or two references that may be of assistance. There is a very interesting article published in The Round Table in June, 1937, dealing with the importance of British news agencies abroad. If I may read to the House some extracts from it, it will illustrate more clearly than I can the importance of these news services.

Captain Cowan

Can the Minister say who wrote the article?

Mr. MacBride

I am afraid I cannot. There is no author's name to the article. It quotes mainly from a number of other authors. I am quoting from page 543 of the June, 1937, issue of The Round Table:—

"The problem of British publicity in the Far East does not stand alone. It has its counterpart in South America, and it is repeated in some form or another in North Africa, in the Middle East and on the Continent of Europe. The corollary of the open door in China was the open door in South America. But transmission costs and other conditions were adverse there to anything more than a very limited British service. Here is an extract from the speech delivered by the Prince of Wales after returning from his tour in 1931: ‘I would like to say a word about the position of the British news services to foreign countries, and I will, for example, take South America, which was the last of the great Continents I visited this year. There is no actual shortage of news in South America dealing with events in Great Britain and Ireland, and this country gets a very fair share of the space in the important newspapers, but, with the exception of a limited service of news sent to Argentina by Reuters, and except for a few special messages by their own representatives to a few papers, all news sent from England to Latin America is transmitted by non-British agencies. What is the result of this? The result is that by the time this news reaches the Latin American reader he sees us and our affairs through spectacles which are neither ours nor those of his own country. I most sincerely hope that some means can be found to increase the volume of purely British news to South America and I commend this particular matter to the attention of this Association.' In consequence of the Prince of Wales' intervention, a sustained effort was made to remedy the deficiency to which he drew attention, and some time later in another public speech, His Royal Highness was able to say: ‘I took the opportunity on my return last May to express my views to this country, and I emphasised the importance of supplying the great South American Continent with fuller and more accurate reports of what is going on here. Reuters have now established a daily news service to South America and, as regards Argentina, I am grateful to my friend, Jorge Mitre, of La Nation, and to the Buenos Aires Herald for co-operating most heartily in this scheme.”

The author of the article goes on to say:

"But alas in spite of heavy financial sacrifice by Reuters, persisted in for nearly three years, the experiment in the end had to be abandoned; to-day South America is very little better off in the matter of British news and world news carried through British channels than it was ten years ago. On the other hand, thanks to the French official facilities it enjoys, the Havas Agency transmits to South America some 15,000 words a day on world intelligence, which includes British news as seen through French eyes. The Havas telegram, quoted earlier in this article, from the North China Daily News, provides a fair idea of the risk to which this exposes British prestige. It is not necessary to impute base motives to Havas. It is enough that the agency should be an honourable exponent, as undoubtedly it is, of French policy and a sympathetic interpreter of the French point of view. But its very zeal and efficiency in that rôle must render Havas unsuitable as a provider and editor of British news in any foreign land. Within the last few weeks, the secretary of the British Chamber of Commerce at Sao Paulo, in Brazil, referring in the Daily Telegraph to the Italian propagandists who, in the Levant and elsewhere, ‘are assiduously spreading the doctrine that Britain is “on the run” everywhere, and that the Empire will shortly break up’, drew attention, as many have before him, to the highly unsatisfactory British news situation in South America. He said: ‘News of Britain and things British comes, for the most part, to the South American countries via non-British Press agencies, whose news, to say the least, is often biassed. In Brazil, for example, the only British news service is a partial one picked up from the air by one newspaper in this city. All the other foreign news in Brazil is received from American and French agencies who, naturally, are not interested in presenting facts favourable to British prestige, but are more concerned with serving up news of a sensational nature (not infrequently detrimental to British interests).’ For years the British Chamber of Commerce have urged the need for British news services, inaugurated, if necessary, with official backing in their early stages.

Of news of a sensational nature, detrimental to British interests, a typical example was provided at the time of the Invergordon trouble. That episode was seized upon by at least one American agency distributing a big service in South America. It was presented to its clientele throughout the Continent as a flaring narrative which magnified out of all proportion what had happened and which could only leave the average reader under the impression that the British Navy was rotten with unrest and a spirit of mutiny rampant. One need not attribute to the men responsible for this narrative any hatred of Britain or any desire to hurt us abroad. They probably were animated by nothing worse than an excited impulse to produce ‘a colourful story' and ‘to play up the high lights.' But in doing so they were undoubtedly guilty of misrepresenting grossly this country and equally grossly misleading the people of South America. None could condemn this more readily than responsible Americans. Within the past few weeks the United States Ambassador in London, himself an important newspaper proprietor, spoke at a public luncheon of the unfortunate fact that newspapers were often propagandists of evil. Their disposition ‘to play up to what is sensational instead of sound and usual, and what is remarkable and extraordinary instead of what is the habit of the people, is one of the things that tend to mislead the American public about Great Britain and the British public about the United States.' The evil here rightly condemned by His Excellency was the evil inherent in the telegrams to South America about the Invergordon trouble.

The American services in South America, however, are not so prejudiced to Great Britain as the French. The not unnatural disposition of Havas day by day and week by week is to give to the people of South America, no less than to the people of the Far East and of the Continent of Europe wherever the Havas service circulates, the French aspect of international politics, and to wrest from the British the function that hitherto Reuters have in the main fulfilled as the international supplier of world news. Its growing activity in this respect has excited the misgivings even of Americans, and within the last few years both President Roosevelt and the Secretary of State have commented adversely upon the character of the French news services in South America.

Much might be said about the French, German, Italian and Russian wireless services in Egypt, the Levant, Afghanistan, and elsewhere, all of them working to Great Britain's disadvantage and designed to supplant or discredit British news and British influence. Still more might be said about the growth and the effect of these services on the continent of Europe. Both Havas and the D.N.B., by means of their subsidised wireless broadcasts, are supplying newspapers of all nationalities in Europe at nominal, not to say derisory, rates, services embodying not only their own national news, but also news from the rest of the world, most of which they have acquired from Reuters but which in the process of relaying loses its Reuter complexion and takes on that of the distributing agency. The scope for mischief here can easily be seen. That it does not escape attention is clear from an article by a Norwegian journalist of standing, Mr. Henry Rsoch, who, writing in the Oslo Aftenposten as recently as 24th April last, remarked upon the growth of the D.N.B. and Havas services to the detriment of Reuters and struck a note of warning. In Mr. Rsoch's opinion, the Reuter agency, which, to use his own words, has pumped more material into the international news stream than any of its rivals, now works with great and evergrowing difficulty, and month by month it is harder for news from British sources, and news of British affairs, to find their way into that news stream.

That is the conclusion reached by a detached observer, one, presumably, more friendly than otherwise towards this country. It is a conclusion compatible with the facts, and it is one that we cannot ignore with impunity."

I merely quoted this article at some length to the House to adopt from it the arguments and the conclusions that it reached; that, undoubtedly, the viewpoint of a country must become distorted if it is presented through a channel other than a national channel, if it is presented through the spectacles of another continent. I would refer the House to some other shorter and possibly more recent references illustrating the importance of news in other spheres. There is a book written in 1946 by Mr. Francis Williams who was British war-time Controller of News and Censorship. The title of the book is Press, Parliament and People. On page 213 it deals with the importance of news from a trade point of view. He says:—

"Trade was said in the days of imperialist expansion to follow the flag. To-day it tends to follow the news. If the newspapers of a foreign country which is an actual or potential market for manufactured goods take only, shall we say, an American news service, which quite naturally includes a high proportion of news concerning American developments or news written with an American slant, there is a strong possibility that the merchants and people of that country will become more conscious of American enterprise than that of other countries and will place orders for goods with American manufacturers. The same is of course equally true of the long-term effect of British news services to foreign countries.

And, since the possibility of severe competition in export markets is a factor very present in the minds of all Governments, the commercial value of a successful international news service is a factor that has to be taken into account. It has undoubtedly played some part in the battle for territories fought between the great news agencies in the past, particularly in the struggle for South American territories. It is almost certainly one of the important factors behind the big expansion of American news services which is now taking place and their drive to secure a predominant hold in the European newspaper market."

There has been, and I think there still is, quite an important struggle in South America for the South American news market. Until the recent war the French news agency had practically a monopoly of South American news markets. I do not know to what extent it has been able to maintain its hold on the news market of South America but the influence of the French news services in South America has been, and still is, a matter of grave concern to British foreign policy. Here in Ireland we have no Irish news agency. Because of transmission difficulties, because of our unimportance, if you like, in the stream of world affairs, all the news that emanates in Ireland is canalised through London. It may be prepared here by correspondents but finally it is canalised through London offices. In our case the need for an independent source of news about Ireland, which will not be canalised through any foreign channels, is particularly important from a number of different points of view. First of all, unlike most other countries we have a national objective to achieve. We still have to gain full control of our own country. We still have to assert the rights of the Irish people to determine their own form of Government and their own affairs without outside interference. In the second place, for one reason or another we have to counteract a good deal of hostile propaganda, unfair propaganda about Ireland that is published constantly in the Press of the world. From the third point of view, we need news channels of our own in order to encourage the development of our industrial life, of our foreign trade, of our tourist traffic, to make known our cultural developments and also to make known our viewpoints in the field of international affairs as the need arises.

It is only, as I pointed out, in the last 25 years or so that we have got control of our own affairs. In that period of time we have not been able to develop the international trade that we should normally have had, having regard to our size and importance in the economic life of Europe. Likewise, probably because of lack of development here of one kind or another, we have not developed a tourist traffic of the magnitude which we could have developed if we had been independent economically before. I feel to a certain extent that it should not be necessary for me to justify the need that exists for the creation of this news agency, because I feel the Leader of the Opposition himself set out last year in the course of a debate in this House many of the reasons which make it imperative. I may refer the House to the speech made by Deputy de Valera, reported in Volume 112, No. 5, column 883, and made on the 20th of July last year.

Mr. G. Boland

Suppose the Minister gave us his own reasons first and then told us what other people thought about it, would that not be a good idea?

Mr. MacBride

I am certainly prepared to do that if the Deputy would prefer to act on the basis of my reasons——

Mr. G. Boland

Not at all.

Mr. MacBride

——rather than on the basis of the reasons adduced by his Leader. I am quite prepared to give my reasons but I thought he might accept the views of his own Leader more readily than he would accept my views.

Mr. G. Boland

You will not get out of it that way.

Mr. MacBride

There is no attempt to get out of it at all. Deputy Boland can make his own speech and criticise me as much as he likes.

Mr. Boland

I hope I shall not have to read out of papers that are 12 years old. Any time I ever tried to quote from such papers I was ruled out.

Mr. MacBride

Is the Deputy raising a point of order?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Boland got as much fair play as any other Deputy from the Chair. The Chair is perfectly impartial in these matters.

Mr. MacBride

Does Deputy Boland object to my quoting the Leader of his own Party, quoting a speech he made in this House last year? I should have thought that that would have warmed the cockles of Deputy Boland's heart. Possibly he does not agree with his Leader in this matter.

Mr. G. Boland

I should like to hear the Minister's reasons now.

Mr. MacBride

Let me quote the reasons given by your own Leader and I hope you will take it to heart. Deputy de Valera, speaking in this House on the 20th of July last year, said:

"We have, in our struggles in the past, been supported by the goodwill of people of our race all over the world. These people are good citizens of the countries in which they dwell. Nobody can point a finger at them but they have an affection for the land from which they themselves and their forebears sprung. Because of that, it is desirable that we should keep in touch with them. We can do that best through a short-wave station. It is only those who have been away from this country for any length of time who realise the importance of that contact. Newspapers in other countries, if they carry any information at all about this country, it will be, you may be sure, information in the main that is to our detriment. It is about something sensational that has happened in this country and the unfortunate thing is that those who get only the sensational are inclined to think that the sensational is the normal, as it is the only information that they get. They get some wrong impressions of this country just as we might, for instance, get a wrong impression of a city like Chicago from the way in which certain happenings in that city were depicted here.

"Apart from the accidental circumstance, due to the nature of news, that it is only sensational things as a rule that are sent abroad, there is the fact that in the past there has been deliberate propaganda against our country. It was one of the means by which the Power that held this country in the past tried to justify its hold on it. For that reason we are in a worse position than most people would be. Surely, then, it is to our interest to keep in touch with our people abroad who, we can believe, will be, of all others, the most understanding and sympathetic to our cause. We will have a good case in our fight for liberty. We had a good case in fighting for the amount of liberty we have got and we will have an equally good case in fighting for the rest of it. Surely that is a reason why we should see that our contacts with our people abroad should not be cut. These contacts in the past were largely maintained by the fact that new people were going every year from this country into these other countries. They were able to supply our exiles abroad with up-to-date information as to feeling at home, but that channel of information is rapidly drying up. There are not so many of our people nowadays going to these countries which were most sympathetic to us in the past and for that reason you are not going to have the same freshening of contacts as you had in the past."

I think that these reasons are admirable reasons in support of having our own news channels to reach the outside world, to reach our own people who are settled in America, Australia, New Zealand, Canada and throughout the world.

Indeed, the idea of a news agency is not really a novel one here. Since this matter first came up for discussion and for mention in the Press, someone very kindly sent me a letter written in 1906 by Roger Casement to the late Professor Donovan in which he himself puts forward a suggestion—in 1906— from Belfast for the creation of an Irish news exchange service. I need not trouble the House with the letter beyond one rather amusing reference in the course of it in which Roger Casement makes an allusion to a possible person who might be useful in it. He says: "There is here in Belfast a very promising young man, Bulmer Hobson, who has been the prime mover in founding the ‘Dungannon Club' and getting its views on Irish affairs circulated", and he suggests that he would be useful in helping to establish such a news exchange.

I noticed the other day that a person who writes under the name of Nichevo, whom I suspect to be one of our ablest and most experienced journalists in this city, wrote in a column that he had many years ago contemplated the starting of an Irish agency but for financial reasons he and others of the journalists then associated with him had to give up the project as they did not think it could exist without some financial support.

I myself on a number of occasions have also examined the possibility and indeed, I think, discussed it with the Leader of the Opposition and officials of the last Government both before the war and since the war.

One may well ask, then, why this was not done before. The answer is quite simple. It is mainly a financial reason. We are a small country. There are no matters of international importance regularly happening here. A news agency, to be a commercial proposition, must develop an international service which is able to receive and send out news. Our importance and the size of our population preclude us from setting up a news agency on a commercial basis on the same scale as countries like France, or Belgium or America or Switzerland, wealthier countries than we are. No Irish News Agency could be a financial success, certainly, at least, for the first few years. We must face the fact that it will have to receive financial support from one source or another. Properly administered, properly organised, intelligently run, it might become a paying proposition but I would not like to present this proposal to the House on the basis that it could become a paying proposition. I would rather present it to the House candidly as a service that will require State aid for a number of years at least.

In dealing with the functions of the proposed news agency, it might be well if I approached it first on the basis of what the Irish News Agency is intended not to be. First, it is not intended to be a propaganda machine or a machine which will present news other than in an objective, truthful and accurate way. It may be said that it will serve as a propaganda medium in so far as one of its main functions will be to place Ireland on the map and that to that extent then it will be serving a propaganda service by making Ireland known throughout the world in different spheres.

Secondly, it is not proposed that the news agency should enter into the field of "hot" news. To non-journalist members of the House I might elaborate that. It is not intended that the news agency should supply reports of accidents, crimes, racing, Dáil Debates or stock exchange reports.

Thirdly, it is not intended that the news agency should be the official mouthpiece of the Government. That function is being very efficiently and very well performed by the Government Information Bureau.

Fourthly—a point I should like to make clear at this stage to avoid a great many disappointments among the journalistic professions, among many friends of my own and among members of the public—it is not going to be a huge organisation and it is not going to be in a position to employ a great many people.

Now, having stated the things that the Irish News Agency is not intended to be, let me state briefly the function and the purpose of the Irish News Agency. Its function will be to put Ireland on the map by supplying to the Press of the world accurate information concerning matters of cultural, trade and general interest calculated to promote tourism, trade and cultural relations. That will be its steady function. When necessary, it will give Ireland's viewpoint on political matters, but only when necessary. It is not going to be a political propaganda machine. Its third function will be to negative, again when necessary, unfriendly, hostile or sensational propaganda about Ireland.

Let me put the problem this way to the House. There are in America some 3,000 or 4,000 newspapers, 700 of which are important newspapers. One of the principal functions of this news agency will be to place on the news desks of these 700 newspapers news of political, cultural, trade or tourist importance that would not otherwise be supplied to the news desks of these papers. There is no intention to enter into competition with existing news channels. The Irish News Agency will willingly make available to existing news channels the news that is at its disposal. Its aim will be rather to supplement existing news channels and to ensure that, at times of crisis, any newspaper editor, sub-editor or political commentator will have ready at hand a statement of Ireland's viewpoint that will have reached these papers through Irish spectacles and not through the spectacles of Fleet Street.

The Bill which is presented to the House for Second Reading is mainly an enabling Bill following the pattern of most Bills of a similar nature. It provides for the formation of a company, for drawing up Articles of Association, for the alteration of Memorandum and Articles of Association. Section 10 provides that the Minister may, out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas, lend to the agency, upon such terms and conditions as may be decided, sums for the formation of the company. Section 11 provides for advances by the Minister for Finance to the agency. Section 12 and 13 deal with the power of the Minister for Finance as shareholder. Section 14 contains the usual obligation to hold shares in trust for the Minister for Finance. Section 15 provides for the possibility of dividends becoming payable. Section 16 contains the usual provisions in relation to the drawing up and presentation of balance sheets.

Section 17 deals with the creation and appointment of an advisory board. That advisory board should be representative of newspaper editors, journalists, correspondents and broadcasting authorities. This news agency, in addition to disseminating news about Ireland, should also be able to be of assistance to Irish newspapers and Irish newspaper men generally. It should be able, from time to time, to provide Irish newspapers with news concerning events of Irish interest abroad.

I should like to see this news agency run, as far as possible, on a co-operative basis between the newspapers, the journalists and the Government. It is very hard to evolve a completely satisfactory machine for doing that. It took Reuters more than 100 years, I think to reach that stage. As I told the House, Reuters started in the 1850's and it was only in 1941 that a trust was formed between the Press Association and the newspaper proprietors in England. I hope that at some date in the future, when we have all gained a certain amount of experience in the workings of the news agency, it may be possible to make it an entirely co-operative medium. Difficulties will exist in the way of doing this until such time as the news agency is able to earn sufficient revenue itself, because, until it is able to do so, it will have to depend upon financial assistance from one source or another. It is quite obvious that if such a news agency has to receive financial assistance from some source, it should receive that financial assistance from the State rather than be for sale to the highest bidder, because, if it were for sale to the highest bidder, it would probably cease to serve the function it was created to serve or it might go completely out of existence.

I have given the House as much information as I could. There are a great many quotations that I could read, but I am afraid Deputy Boland would not be able to contain himself and, perhaps, I had better refrain from reading them.

Mr. G. Boland

I have listened with great patience for an hour.

Mr. MacBride

That was very good of Deputy Boland. The Deputy has no doubt come into the House for the purpose of delivering a personal attack on me.

Mr. G. Boland

The Minister may learn something before I have done with him.

Mr. MacBride

I hope the Deputy will come to realise that such a news agency is necessary. I am certain that if he were on this side of the House and examined the position objectively, he would realise how essential it was and would himself support it. I hope Deputy Boland will have the courage to face up to that and not allow himself to be swayed by other considerations.

Mr. G. Boland

I did not remain in the dark as long as the Minister. I faced up to things while the Minister was hiding in the dark.

Mr. MacBride

I could easily pursue Deputy Boland on this, and if I were to do so I know he would come off second best.

Mr. G. Boland

I do not think so at all.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Let us pursue the Bill.

Mr. G. Boland

Do not make any mistake about that.

Mr. de Valera rose.

Applause in the visitors' gallery.

Mr. de Valera

From the extract which the Minister——

Mr. P.D. Lehane

On a point of order, is it correct to have applause in the gallery?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Applause is not allowed. I would like to remind Deputies that they are responsible for the conduct of the visitors they introduce to the gallery.

Mr. Lynch

Is the Deputy suggesting that there was an arrangement about this?

Mr. Coburn

Certainly.

Captain Cowan

May I, on this issue, ask if the Chair is going to direct the officers of the House to remove those people who have insulted the House by their conduct in the gallery this evening?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I have already indicated that Deputies who introduce visitors to the gallery are responsible for the conduct of those visitors. The officers of the House know what that means.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

More Fianna Fáil pantomime.

Mr. de Valera

As I was saying, from the extract which the Minister read out from my speech of last year it must be clear to him as it will be clear to other members of the House, that, if there was being presented to the House a sound, practical proposition so as to put the news of this country on a proper basis abroad, he would get hearty support from this side and would certainly get hearty support from me. The need of putting Ireland's case before the world and of having Irish news objectively reported, is very real. My objection to the Minister's proposal is that it is not a practical proposition. In the quotation given by the Minister I was speaking of what was practical, and in my opinion that was the radio, a short-wave wireless that would take the news over the air so that our people who would want to listen to it could listen in. In that way they would get a corrective for the false news that they get from the newspapers. Now to try and get that corrective into the newspapers directly is quite a different proposition.

When first I saw this Bill I thought that the intention was to go into competition with the existing news agencies on what the Minister has referred to as "hot news." If it were that I came to the conclusion that the competition would be too severe for us, and that it was not likely that the newspapers that subscribe to a news service of that sort would be likely to subscribe to our news service. I believe they would rather depend on the sources of getting news which they have such as special reporters and correspondents here than pay definitely for a service which they would rarely use, because it is unfortunately true that it is only the very exceptional and very extraordinary things that have an interest for these newspapers. I then realised that the Minister did not want to enter into that competition, and that the Bill was not intended for that purpose. I agree that the Minister was right in thinking that he would not be successful in it. However, it was a line of country well worth looking into and exploring to see what the possibilities were.

I may say that I myself had been thinking, when I was in charge of External Affairs, of trying whether such a proposition was possible. I referred it to some one of the Departments, and having given it some thought myself, I did not see how we could make it a success or how we could make it a practical proposition.

Now, if we were to go out with "hot news"—news of the competitive type —it would mean that we would have to go out against those long established news services which are subscribed to by the various newspapers in the different countries. What have we left if we set that aside? We have what the Minister has referred to as cultural news, certain trade news and so on. What does that bring us down to? It brings us down to the fact that there is some sheet to be issued at intervals, either daily or weekly, to be distributed gratis, I take it. I do not think that, if you are going to achieve your purpose of correcting wrong news, you can restrict it to subscribers. If you do not restrict it then no one will subscribe, obviously. Therefore, you will be compelled to have this as a free service. Now, it is one of the unfortunate things in the world that people have no regard for what they get for nothing, and they will believe that it is not being given to them for nothing except for propaganda purposes, and so they will treat these as propaganda sheets.

The best thing, in my opinion, that the Minister could do with this proposition is to withdraw the Bill. I say that as one who is very anxious that the truth about Ireland should be known abroad. There is no use in all this hugger-mugger, all this hocuspocus and the forming of a company when, in reality, it is a Government agency in the long run. It would be far more effective and far simpler to work if the Minister were to set up some particular section in the Department of External Affairs which would issue, at such intervals as were found feasible and convenient, something on the lines of the "Swedish News". I think that, from our point of view, a sheet or bulletin of that sort, giving information of the type that people would be interested in and frankly sent out by our representatives in the various countries would be a better way of meeting the situation. I think the proposal in the Bill is completely woolly, and the moment you have a lot of wool knocking about people will think that the wool is there to be pulled over their eyes.

I think that the Minister is approaching this question from a completely wrong angle, and I am speaking as one who is anxious to have something done. If the Minister were bringing forward a Supplementary Estimate asking that provision be made in his Department for the preparation, publication and distribution of a sheet or bulletin of the sort I have been speaking about, I would be inclined to support it, provided I was satisfied with the details. I am sorry that I have to oppose this on the grounds that, in my opinion, it has not been thoroughly thought out, that it is completely impracticable, and that it does not deserve, and should not be given, the name of a news agency with a company behind it.

I, therefore, will have to oppose this proposition. I am opposing it objectively and on its merits, although I would like to see some feasible scheme put forward by which we would be able to get news about Ireland of the restricted type, such as the Minister has referred to, over to the people who require it. If you distribute this news to 700 newspapers, the expense is going to be very great. I do not see any hope of getting any income from it. The expense of putting that news on the desks of 700 newspapers alone every day will be very great. Mind you, if you want to be really successful you will probably not wait for the post at all. You might have to use instruments by which you might be able to send the news at once, the teletype, or some mechanism of that sort; but even that had better be worked from the offices of our representatives abroad, than to have it done in this particular way. My fear is that you will get but trifling value for the expenditure in either case.

I see no point in having a company; I see no chance of an income; I see the expense, the amount of it I do not know. I do not know what sum will really be involved, but I believe that if it is to be successul the amount will have to be very great indeed. If you were, instead, to try to concentrate on having a good news service through a short-wave wireless, that would be far more effective. Accordingly, I am opposing the Second Reading.

Captain Cowan

I have read this Bill and it is not altogether the innocuous measure that the Minister has described it to be, because Section 7 states that the principal function of the agency shall be to ensure the collection, dissemination, distribution and publication of news and intelligence inside and outside the State. That is something different from what the Minister said in his opening speech. But, accepting what the Minister said —and the Minister spent over an hour of Parliamentary time justifying this Bill, reading extracts from an unsigned article published 18 years ago and published for the purpose of creating or improving British prestige in South America and other countries—we cannot, and I think the Minister admitted it, enter into competition with the big news agencies. I think that is perfectly clear. We are unable financially to do it.

One of my big objections is this: that I was sent into this House, and the Minister was sent into this House, for the purpose of doing something realistic in regard to employment, something realistic in regard to housing, something realistic in regard to hunger—and there is quite a lot of hunger in the constituency I represent. We were sent in to do those things and, I think, if we had made some serious effort to deal with these problems, then we could waste Parliamentary time on a toy Bill such as this. I asked the Minister for Local Government to-day how many houses had been built in Dublin City.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We must not discuss housing, unemployment or other such matters on a Bill of this kind.

Captain Cowan

I am not proposing to do so.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is trying to get a lot of it in. He will have to deal with the Bill.

Captain Cowan

I am giving those as reasons why this Bill should not be read a Second Time. If we do not give it a Second Reading we will save a lot of Parliamentary time on the subsequent stages.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy will have to give the reasons on the Bill itself.

Captain Cowan

My first, objection to the Bill is that it is unnecessary, that it has been introduced at the wrong time, that there is time devoted to it that could be devoted to more important matters that affect our citizens. The Minister has said that one of the reasons why this Bill is necessary is because we have a national objective to achieve, that we still have to gain control of our own territory. I see in this Bill one great danger, regarding the problem of Partition that faces us. There is very serious consideration being given to that problem all through the country. Enthusiasm has been worked up in big demonstrations all over the country, enthusiasm with reference to the ending of Partition; but I see in the introduction of this Bill a douche of cold water thrown on that enthusiasm, and our people who are anxiously looking forward for leadership in the matter of Partition are getting this Bill that proposes to tell the world about the evils of Partition.

I think it is unfair to create that spirit of enthusiasm and produce this Bill as the means by which that enthusiasm can be ulitised for the purpose of ending Partition. The Minister for External Affairs, at one of these big demonstrations that I mentioned, talked about the necessity for national discipline. Undoubtedly, we would be a very disciplined people if we were to accept this measure as the method by which our energies could be devoted towards the ending of Partition.

Mr. MacBride

Is the Deputy going to suggest some method of ending Partition?

Captain Cowan

I have already suggested it.

Mr. MacBride

You might let us into your secret.

Captain Cowan

I have suggested it inside and outside the House, and there is no secret about it.

Mr. MacBride

You should not be shy about mentioning it now.

Mr. G. Boland

He mentioned it at the last election.

Captain Cowan

I do not see what the Minister aims at by that particular interruption. I do not know what his object is.

Mr. MacBride

No, not at all.

Captain Cowan

I have stated it in this House and I have been described by the Minister as mischievous for stating it, that there is only one way to end Partition and that is by the armed might of the youth of this country.

Mr. Corry

Hear, hear!

Mr. MacBride

I hope Deputy Corry's "Hear, hear!" will go on the record and that his leader will stand over it.

Mr. G. Boland

Deputy Corry recommended poison gas at one time.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputies will please remember that we are now discussing the Second Reading of this Bill.

Captain Cowan

The question has been asked and answered. It has been stated often by me and it will be repeated as often as I think it is necessary. There is no secrecy in regard to it. I do object to this. We in this House are a body of Deputies sent here to represent our constituencies. Deputy Corry is not under the control of the Leader of the Opposition. That is the kind of Fascist mentality to which I object. It clearly is a Fascist mentality.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Would the Deputy relate that to the provisions of the Bill?

Captain Cowan

I am relating it to the interruption I have had from the Minister.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Will the Deputy get away from the interruptions and come to the terms of the Bill?

Captain Cowan

If the Minister interrupts me I shall answer him. I hope that we shall not put ourselves in the position where we can be ordered to do what some people think we ought to do rather than what our consciences and our constituents direct us to do. Newspaper men and experienced journalists working both on our city and our country newspapers know that day after day a flood of news comes pouring in from government news agencies all over the world. What happens to it? Any experienced journalist will tell you that it is never opened, that it is thrown into the waste-paper basket.

Mr. M.J. O'Higgins

How do they know what type of news it is if it is never opened?

Captain Cowan

I am talking about the experience of journalists. It is treated just like some of the circulars we get are treated. We dump them in the waste-paper basket. They include more than bills. For instance, this morning I got a document in the post; it went into the waste-paper basket. This document is published at considerable expense here in the city. I had better not mention the name of the journal or I shall be attacked in it next month.

Mr. Little

We can guess what it is?

Captain Cowan

We all got it this morning. That is what happens and the Minister himself has some experience of journalistic work. He knows that nine-tenths of the stuff distributed by this type of agency is never opened in the newspaper office. I hope that Deputy Lemass will take part in this discussion and tell us of some of his practical experiences in regard to this matter.

If we intend to set up a form of organisation which will send out in envelopes or wrappers daily, weekly or monthly, some document which will ultimately be dumped in waste-paper baskets in 90 per cent. of the newspaper offices, I don't think either the time or money involved in this Bill can be justified. Our journalists here are doing a good job of work and a very fine job of work in so far as they represent foreign newspapers. They submit to those newspapers very fair reports of what is happening here. They may be paid for that service. Is it suggested that this free service we intend to provide will, if the newspapers go to the trouble of opening the envelopes or wrappers, be accepted instead of the service that is now rendered by experienced foreign journalists here?

I have seen some criticism of this Bill in our own newspapers. I have seen it criticised in a newspaper that cannot be described as unfriendly to the Government. I do not think I can be called unfriendly to the Government, but I still feel that it is necessary to criticise this Bill and I criticise it for the reasons I have given. In so far as its purpose is directed towards the dissemination of news in relation to Partition, I think it will have the effect of weakening the national resolve in that regard. If the Minister cannot say at the moment whether it is to be a daily, weekly, monthly or quarterly production, I would like to know what consideration has been given to that aspect of the matter. If it is only intended that this news should be distributed to foreign newspapers, why was it specified in Section 7 that its purpose would be to distribute and publish news and intelligence inside and outside the State.

I am inclined to agree with Deputy de Valera that this Bill ought to be withdrawn and reconsidered. The Minister said that he wants to tell the truth about Ireland. What truth is he going to tell? What truth is to be told about Ireland? Is it the truth of the things that I see every day in my constituency? Will we send out pictures of the slums, which ought to be removed? Will we send out pictures and reports of the unemployed assembled at the labour exchanges or in mass meetings demanding work? Is that the truth that will be circulated? Or is it the old Kathleen Ní Houlihán stuff? I commenced my speech by saying that I objected to Parliamentary time being devoted to this measure while urgent problems remained unsolved. I appeal to the Minister to be realistic. I appeal to him to withdraw the Bill. When we have solved these urgent major problems and when he and his Department have had time to think over this Bill and to reconsider it, then in a different atmosphere we can consider the new draft of the News Agency Bill.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

There are a few things I would like to say in relation to the measure introduced by the Minister for External Affairs. First of all, I think the idea which has prompted the Minister to introduce this Bill is a commendable one. It is one which should commend itself to all sections of this House with, possibly, a question mark opposite Deputy Cowan. Nevertheless we have, for a great number of years now and certainly since the foundation of the State, been very conscious of the fact that the Irish point of view abroad and Ireland's position in relation to certain matters have consistently been misunderstood as a result of lack of information emanating from Ireland. If the purpose of this Bill is to endeavour to remedy that, then it is commendable.

I welcome Deputy de Valera's contribution to the debate in so far as his opposition to the measure itself is concerned not with the object or aim but merely with the means suggested by the Minister towards the accomplishment of an agreed object of purpose. When I say that I welcome Deputy de Valera's contribution, I mean that I can understand that portion of his speech in which he doubts the usefulness of this news agency in this particular matter. But I do take exception to Deputy de Valera when he gives as one of his reasons for opposing this Bill that there is no chance of an income from this particular news agency. In other words, one of his grounds of opposition is that there is no money in it. There are many things which comprise the national aspirations of this country from which no dividends in hard cash can ever be drawn; many things on which each year we spend considerable proportion of our national income—the preservation of the Irish language and other matters like that—from which no side of the House expects an immediate return in money. Nevertheless, there is no member of this House who grudges in any way the money spent. As I understand the Minister's remarks when introducing this Bill he does not propose this measure as being in any way an income-making company, a company that is likely in any way possible to meet its own liabilities. It is an investment of the income of the people of this country for the purpose of ensuring that that desirable object of making our point of view known abroad is attained. To that extent I endorse and agree with the reasons which have prompted the Minister in introducing this measure.

I can see objections to it. I suppose we are starting more or less on a new field, completely uncharted and, naturally, any beginning must be imperfect. It is possible that there are other ways in which this objective can be attained but I do think that if we are serious about getting the Irish point of view understood abroad it should, if at all possible, be transmitted and distributed abroad by some association or organisation that is not identified with the Government here. For that reason, I do not see any real grounds in the suggestion made by the Leader of the Opposition, that possibly some sheet issued by the Department of External Affairs would fulfil this purpose. I do not think it would. If such a sheet were availed of at all, it would, in America and other countries, be classed straightaway as propaganda and dealt with as such. It is possible that news or information coming from an Irish news agency may also be treated purely as propaganda but there is at least a chance that in the world we want to approach, which presumably is America, it will be treated as news coming from a reliable source in this country and dealt with as such. I do not believe that such information coming from any purely Government source would have the opportunity of achieving its purpose.

I do not think that this is a measure that should arouse much opposition in the House. We have, I think, reached a stage now in the development of our country and in the development of our efforts towards unity when we must strike abroad and we must arouse public opinion throughout the world in the accomplishments of our outstanding national aspirations. It is only right and proper that in that particular task we should avail of each and every opportunity of affecting world public opinion. In so far as I believe this measure has in it the possibility of doing that I think it is a measure that should be endorsed by this House. The Leader of the Opposition has expressed disagreement, for certain reasons, to the proposal. He has suggested the alternative of using the Department of External Affairs. I do not think that his reasons for suggesting that are such that should commend it to this House. Unless there is some reasonable alternative to the organisation envisaged by this Bill I think it should be passed by the House.

Mr. Lemass

Deputy de Valera paid the Minister the compliment of regarding his proposal as a serious one and taking it as such he gave serious reasons why it should be withdrawn. I think it is a fake and my purpose in intervening in this debate is to try to find out why the Minister is trying to perpetrate this fake on the House. This proposed Irish news agency is a fake. This Bill, which purports to set up a company under the Companies Acts and makes elaborate provisions for the utilisation of the profits which the company is going to earn, is a fake. The speech with which the Minister recommended his proposal to the House was the largest and final part of the fake. Deputy de Valera and Deputy Cowan have suggested to the Minister that he should withdraw this Bill. He has no intention of doing that. He knew it was a fake before he brought it here. I do not think it will be possible for us to extract from the Minister the real reason why he devised this fake and why he is trying to put it across the House. He knows that he is not going to set up a news agency. He knows that this company under the Companies Act is not going to have any profits to allocate, much less any hope of repaying the advances and loans that are to be made to it. He knows quite well that he has decided to call this a news agency and to set it up in the form of a company under the Companies Acts for ulterior motives. I propose to suggest to him what these motives may be and I think that some Deputies, at least, will find them convincing.

There is going to be no Irish news agency. Do Deputies here know what a news agency is? It is an organisation which collects news and sells it to newspapers. A newspaper contracts with a news agency to take its service of news and the news supplied by that agency flows into the newspaper office every day. The newspaper taking the service may or may not use the news. It may be of no interest to its readers. It may be so coloured as to be incapable of being properly interpreted. The work of a news agency consists in selling a service of news to newspapers and the news agency makes a profit through the fees paid by newspapers for that service. This news agency is not going to have news. Is that not what the Minister says? It is not going to be interested in news. It is going to be concerned with supplying the Press of the world with information about Ireland of general interest. It is going to give Ireland's viewpoint on political matters when necessary, presumably in the form of reports of speeches by the Minister, and it is going to negative hostile propaganda. How is it going to do that? Is there going to be any result from the activities of this Company called the Irish news agency, than the issue of a bulletin, which Deputy de Valera called a sheet, containing general information about the country or reports of political activities which are so old when they reach the readers of the sheet that they are not likely to interest them unless the subject matter is of more than usual significance.

Deputy de Valera made it quite clear, and I want to make it quite clear, that I see no objection to the publication of such a sheet, journal or periodical through the Department of External Affairs to influential people and newspapers in other countries. That is done, as we all know, by several European countries. We ourselves get these publications, sent to us usually through the resident Minister of the country concerned. Some of them are quite good.

The Swedish publication has been mentioned here. It is one which is so excellently produced that we all find it of interest and very frequently get from it ideas which are applicable to our own circumstances. Others are not quite so good or, rather, should I say, deal so exclusively with matters of general cultural concern that they are less interesting to us than those whose main concern is with political ideas and political events. The publication of a bulletin of that kind and its circulation through our embassies is something which has been considered. One could exaggerate enormously the value of it. It is something which may produce some results, but what I want to know from the Minister is: will this so-called Irish news agency do anything else than produce such a bulletin?

Mr. MacBride

Such a bulletin is being produced at the moment.

Mr. Lemass

Therefore we are going to have two bulletins, one produced by the Department of External Affairs and another by this so-called Irish news agency.

Mr. MacBride

They are two completely different things.

Mr. Lemass

Will you explain what it is going to do? I am asking the Minister to give us some information on that point. He made a speech in which he detailed at great length the history of a news agency which was started by a penniless young man named Reuter who was anxious to sell commercial information in the City of London. He told us how that little organisation, which was concerned mainly with circulating information concerning the value of shares and the movement of prices throughout the world, gradually grew to be a great commercial news agency. He told us how important it was for Britain with her world-wide interests, her imperial possessions distributed over all parts of the globe, to have news from the British capital transmitted throughout the world.

Mr. MacBride

Will the Deputy answer me one question? Can he name one European State that has not got a news agency, apart from Ireland?

Mr. Lemass

Will the Minister say what this so-called news agency is going to do? That is what we are discussing. If we have not got a commercial news agency the reason for it is obvious. It is not financial. A news agency exists to serve the papers of the country in which it is established.

Mr. MacBride

What other country has not got a news agency?

Mr. Lemass

The Minister himself recognised the fact and mentioned the fact——

Mr. MacBride

Sweden has two official State subsidised news agencies in addition to the news bulletin.

Mr. Lemass

There are two practical objections to running a news agency in this country. One is that, as the Minister mentioned, events of international significance are not happening here regularly. The second is that there do not exist here newspapers with financial resources sufficient to support a news agency established here to serve them. What is this so-called news agency going to do? One thing the Minister did not tell us: where is it going to get the money which the Minister has spoken of? What has it to sell and who is going to buy it? These are questions which Deputies want to hear answered, not what was written in the Round Table eighteen years ago. The Minister has come in here with the proposal to set up a company under the Companies Acts and he is coming later with the proposal to extract £25,000 from the pockets of the Irish people to establish this news agency. What are they going to do with it? These are the questions which he did not answer and these are the questions which he should answer.

Mr. MacBride

More than the chairman of Córas Iompair Éireann did.

Mr. Lemass

That is the way they are going to answer. When they are cornered, they fall back on personal abuse of somebody who is not here to defend himself. The question of payments to the chairman of Córas Iompair Éireann, notwithstanding the lies that are being told about him by the Minister and his colleagues, and which are being circulated throughout the country, is completely irrelevant to this discussion. They have been circulating these lies——

Mr. MacBride

The Deputy accuses me of telling lies?

Mr. Lemass

I do.

Mr. MacBride

Would the Deputy state how much money was paid by him to the ex-chairman of Córas Iompair Éireann in the last ten years?

Mr. Lemass

Not one penny out of public funds.

Mr. MacBride

Oh yes, out of money contributed by public funds.

An Ceann Comhairle

That has nothing to do with the matter under discussion.

Mr. Lemass

Not one penny.

Mr. MacBride

Is the Chair going to allow the Deputy to accuse me of telling lies?

Mr. Lemass

Will the Chair restrict the Minister and prevent him from interrupting my speech with these untrue accusations?

An Ceann Comhairle

The salary of the one-time manager of Córas Iompair Éireann has nothing whatever to do with this debate.

Mr. Lemass

Why is it dragged in then? Because the Minister is being asked questions about the Bill——

Mr. MacBride

On a point of order——

Deputies

Sit down.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister is entitled to raise a point of order.

Mr. MacBride

Is it in order for a Deputy to accuse a Minister of telling lies?

An Ceann Comhairle

It is not in order.

Mr. MacBride

Then will the Ceann Comhairle allow the Deputy to do it with impunity?

An Ceann Comhairle

It is not in order to accuse a Minister of telling lies and any such charge must be withdrawn.

Mr. Lemass

I take it it is not in order for the Minister to make an allegation which is untrue.

Mr. MacBride

Is the charge withdrawn?

Mr. Lemass

Make him withdraw, too. If we are going to have rules of order enforced, let us have them enforced on both sides of the House.

An Ceann Comhairle

Both are at fault.

Mr. Colley rose.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is Deputy Colley going to take the Chair now?

Mr. Colley

No, Sir.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister did not accuse the Deputy of telling lies.

Mr. Lemass

He made a false accusation against a person who is not here to defend himself, an accusation which was completely irrelevant to the matter under debate. Is that in order?

An Ceann Comhairle

No.

Mr. Lemass

Then I hope the Chair will make the Minister withdraw.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy said that the Minister was telling lies. That statement must be withdrawn.

Mr. Lemass

I said that the Minister and his colleagues have been making statements about the chairman of Córas Iompair Éireann which are untrue. We shall have a considerable amount of disorder in this House if the rules are going to be enforced on one side only.

Mr. Allen

Is the Minister in order in making a disorderly remark during the course of Deputy Lemass's speech?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair has stated that the salary of the manager of Córas Iompair Éireann had nothing whatever to do with this debate.

Mr. Lemass

I submit that that is not the point of order.

An Ceann Comhairle

I submit the point of order that when the occupant of the Chair is speaking it is disorderly to interrupt, by Standing Orders. The Minister did not accuse the Deputy of telling lies. The Deputy did accuse the Minister and should withdraw.

Mr. Lemass

May I submit, on a point of order, that the Minister made a statement about a citizen of this State who is not a member of the Dáil, made it irrelevantly and for the purpose of abusing him and misrepresenting him and I submit that he should withdraw that? If he does, I am also prepared to conform with your ruling.

Mr. C. Lehane

You cannot make suggestions to the Chair.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is not a House matter what charges are made in the House, for me.

Mr. Lemass

At one time it was.

An Ceann Comhairle

For me. Again I say it is disorderly to interrupt the Chair. The Deputy will withdraw the charge that the Minister told lies.

Mr. Lemass

In conformity with your ruling, I withdraw the word "lie". I repeat that what was said about Mr. Reynolds, chairman of Córas Iompair Éireann, is false.

Mr. MacBride

What was false?

An Ceann Comhairle

I will have no more on that matter now.

Mr. MacEntee

Is it in order to say that Ananias is a gentleman compared with a certain Deputy of the House?

An Ceann Comhairle

I think the Deputy knows very well the answer to that without putting it to me.

Mr. MacEntee

I do not. That remark was allowed to go without reproof by the Chair in this House.

Mr. Lemass

Why had we this interruption by the Minister? It is because I am trying to extract from him information concerning a Bill which he has submitted to the House, a Bill which I declare is a fake and about which he is obviously determined to give no information. We are setting up here a so-called Irish news agency. Is it going to have any news to sell? To whom does the Minister hope it will be able to sell that news? What is it going to produce? Where is it going to get a revenue? Surely we were entitled to be told those things by the Minister when he was submitting to the House the motion that this Bill should be read a Second Time. Why do we have to drag it out of him? Is he trying to avoid having it dragged out of him by his irrelevant abuse of private citizens? This Irish news agency is a fake. It is called an Irish news agency as part of the fake. It is not going to be a news agency. It is not going to sell news. It is not going to fulfil any of the functions which a news agency ordinarily performs.

Mr. C. Lehane

The Deputy already repeated that twice.

Mr. Lemass

Deputy Lehane will be sick of it before this Bill is passed. This news agency is to be set up as a company under the Companies Act. I do not know who drafted the Bill. I hate to think that the standard of efficiency in the Parliamentary draftsman's office has so deteriorated in the last year that he was responsible for producing what is little more than a mess of words. I suspect the Minister drafted this Bill himself. It shows all the handiwork of an amateur.

Mr. Davin

Is not that personal?

Mr. C. Lehane

That is personal abuse.

Mr. Lemass

That the Minister would be an amateur draftsman? I think it is a statement of fact. A company with £100 capital—a "bogus company". Do Deputies sitting opposite, Deputies who were members of this House a few years ago, recognise the term "a bogus company"? Do they remember the Report of the Commission on Vocational Organisation and its references to these companies set up by the Government purporting to be organisations established under the Companies Acts with a nominal capital of £100?

Mr. M.J. O'Higgins

By what Government, though?

Mr. Lemass

The welkin rang here with the denunciations of the previous Government for establishing companies of that kind. The Deputy is going into the division lobby to vote for the establishment of another. This one is not merely a bogus one but is being set up for a bogus purpose. Some of these companies with only nominal capital, established under previous legislation, have assets of millions of pounds now and were highly successful in developing the activities entrusted to them. This particular type of legislation is produced here as part of the whole process of fooling the Dáil into the belief that something serious is intended.

Might I suggest one reason why this weekly bulletin or monthly news sheet which is to be issued is not to be issued by the Department of External Affairs but, instead, is to be produced by a bogus company? It is because the appointment of salaried personnel will, under this Bill, be at the discretion of the Minister whereas, if staff were to be recruited in the Department of External Affairs to do the same work, they would have to be recruited under the Civil Service (Regulations) Acts.

Is there any other reason why this bulletin is going to be issued by a bogus company instead of by the Department of External Affairs? May we be told something about the personnel? There is a remarkable silence in this Bill about the persons who are to be appointed to salaried positions in this company or how much they are to get.

There is to be a company and there are to be subscribers to the capital of the company—the £100 capital—but in case they might not like to take any financial risks in connection with their association with the company, the amount that they are to subscribe for the shares is to be given to them by the Minister for Finance. That does not mean by the Deputy who now holds the position. It means by the ordinary working man of this State, the farmer, the farm labourer, the individual who pays taxes every time he smokes a packet of cigarettes or buys a pint. He is going to provide the money.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

Your heart bleeds for them now. You had to go over there to understand that.

Mr. Lemass

Shall we say the flapper who goes to a dance is going to pay a little extra so that the Minister for External Affairs can set up this company, the Minister for Finance can put up this £100 capital and the unknown officials who are going to get jobs out of the whole scheme can draw their salaries every month? The money which is to be provided by the Minister for Finance shall come out of the Central Fund. The capital, of course, can be increased but not without the consent of the Minister for Finance and there is no indication whether, if it is to be increased—I cannot think of any reason why it should be—it is to be expanded through contributions from the Minister for Finance or from private individuals. I am sorry the Minister for External Affairs is leaving. I know he dislikes listening to criticism but perhaps some of his colleagues will take note of it for him.

Minister for Justice (General MacEoin)

You can carry on. I will take it.

Mr. Lemass

So long as we are honoured, as we are in this case, by the presence of a Minister, I have no complaint. When we were discussing the Budget the Government Benches were empty and not only was it commented on on this side but at least one of the gentlemen on the benches opposite commented on it. The company is to have as its principal function the collection, dissemination, distribution and publication of news and intelligence inside and outside the State. The Minister himself in introducing the Bill told us it was not going to have as its principal function the collection, dissemination, distribution or publication of news in the sense that a journalist uses that term.

Deputy Cowan referred to Section 7 and he was anxious about the significance of the expression "inside or outside the State" because he presumably saw the possibility of this fake news agency interfering with the ordinary collection and distribution of news by professional journalists in Ireland but I think he missed the significance of the term "principal function." Will the Minister for Justice be good enough to take a note of one other question? I want the Minister for External Affairs to answer in replying to the debate: What other function is it intended that it should have and to what extent is it possible for him or the Government, by Ministerial direction, to extend the functions of the so-called news agency beyond those set out in Section 7? How much are the directors going to be paid? Is not that a question which the Dáil is entitled to ask and to expect an answer? How many directors are there going to be? What are they going to receive? Why all this codology about making money available to this fake news agency in the form of repayable advances? Is there the slightest prospect that this news agency will be able to repay any of the advances? Why all this codolgy about the payment of interest? Is there the slightest prospect that this company will be able to earn a penny with which to pay interest upon the advances it receives from the Central Fund? For what reason is this elaborate fraud being built up for presentation to the Dáil—the picture of a company with subscribed capital, getting finances by means of repayable advances upon which it will be obliged to pay interest, and with provision for the control and allocation of profits when the Minister himself made it clear and everybody here realises that there is no means whatever by which this organisation can get money and that there is no likelihood that these sections of the Bill will ever become operative?

Reading down the Bill, in Section 14 I came in contact with other associates of the agency that we did not hear about in any of the previous sections, that is, members of the agency. What precisely is a member of the agency? We learned already that there are to be subscribers to the memorandum of association, that these subscribers shall contribute to the capital of the agency on the understanding that the money is put up by the Minister for Finance. Then there are to be directors. The manner in which these directors are to be appointed by the subscribers is not stated in the Bill. That is all to be settled in a document called "articles of association" which has yet to be prepared and which is to be approved by the Minister for Finance. But the subscribers having come together, they appoint their directors, and the directors may be not less than three or more than five. Behind that there is some type of individual who is known as a member of the agency. What is a member of the agency?

Mr. M.J. O'Higgins

Read Section 5.

Mr. Sweetman

It is a wonder some of the Deputy's colleagues would not advise him on company law.

Mr. Lemass

Do not represent this as company law. It is a fake company. Reference to the Companies Act is brought in here as part of the fake.

Mr. M.J. O'Higgins

Read Section 5.

Mr. Lemass

Could we get a picture of the organisation? There is a foundation of members. Amongst these, or perhaps including these, or coincident with these, there are subscribers to the articles of association. There are directors to be paid something—we do not know how much. We know that they may not be less than three and cannot be more than five. Associated with these there is to be an advisory board, and all this to produce a weekly or a monthly bulletin which is to contain no news, which is to be directed mainly towards supplying the world with information of a general character about Ireland, information which the Minister tells us is already made available through the Department of External Affairs and which we know is also distributed by the Irish Tourist Board; which is to contain the reports of speeches by the Minister dealing with political matters which he deems it necessary for the world to be informed about, and which is to negative hostile propaganda.

Everybody here knows that the net result of the work of this elaborate organisation will be the production of something akin to what we are now receiving from other Governments, which is of no use whatever to newspapers, which is rarely if ever used in relation to the presentation of news in newspapers, and which, as Deputy Cowan said, is not infrequently deposited unopened in newspaper wastepaper baskets. Seven hundred newspapers in the United States are to be informed about Ireland by means of this organisation which will carry on news, which will not collect news, which will not enter into competition with other news-gathering agencies in this country or outside, and which is going to confine its activities to that type of general propagandist work.

Do not Deputies opposite know that it is a fake? Do they not know that behind this fake there must be some reason? Are they not as interested as I am in extracting from the Minister what that reason is? If he wants to give a few jobs to people and if his impediment is that he cannot get them into his Department without getting them by means of the Civil Service (Regulations) Act, he can go to the Government and get them appointed under a section of that Act which refers to the public interest. That would be an honester way of doing it than going through the "hocus pocus" of setting up a company under the Companies Acts, with share capital, and repayable advances and making all this provision for distribution of profits which it is not going to earn.

I have said that I think some useful work can be done by the preparation and distribution throughout the world of a periodical journal containing general information about this country. I think that that journal is likely to be more effective if distributed to persons known to be interested or persons in positions of influence and authority in other countries than if it is distributed to busy newspaper editors. If that is what the Government want to do, let them go and do it. But let us not have this pretence that they are doing something else by setting up this so-called news agency and going through the fake and the farce of producing a Bill and asking the House to pass it.

If the Government are anxious to make the pretence of doing something useful regarding Partition, they are not going to succeed by the introduction of this Bill. The Minister asked Deputy Cowan what he would do in that regard and pressed him for an answer knowing the answer he was going to get and hoping he could turn it to some advantage to himself. Let me give the Minister one piece of advice which I have already given to him in public and which I want to repeat—stop stunting, stop all this make-believe, all these pretences and fakes that the Minister delights in. Let him get down to realities and face the problem, and we know there is a problem, of breaking down the barriers to the distribution of news about this country to the world, and not pretend to be dealing with that problem by introducing a Bill of this kind. Let him tackle it seriously and, as Deputy de Valera said, if he produces a serious proposition intended to deal seriously with that issue, he will get support from this side of the House. But, to fakes and frauds of this kind, we promise continuous and undying opposition.

Mr. C. Lehane

Deputy de Valera approached this Bill in what seemed to me a reasonable and unbiased frame of mind. I do not find myself in a position to agree with the conclusions which he came to, but there did appear, and he so expressed himself, to be a certain objectivity in his criticism of the Bill. It was at least calm, reasoned and dispassionate. One of the things which surprised me somewhat was the criticism that he offered, that if the proposed agency were to be successful, it would necessarily be expensive. On the correctness of the statement as to the expensiveness of such a proposed news agency, I do not propose to comment. But what does strike me as amazing is that the question of expense should lead Deputy de Valera to a decision that the news agency therefore should not be proceeded with.

Mr. de Valera

If I had used the word "wasted" would the Deputy understand me better?

Mr. C. Lehane

I am dealing with what was said by the Deputy, not with what he intended to say.

Mr. de Valera

The context is there.

Mr. C. Lehane

It appeared to me that the Deputy was dealing with the question of a news agency which would put the Irish point of view, which would give Irish news with an Irish slant and make it available for newspapers the world over. If I understood Deputy de Valera correctly his attitude was that, even granting that it would be successful, it would be too expensive to do it properly. The only point I am making is that it surprises me that the Deputy should have given expression to that point of view.

Mr. de Valera

I would simply like the Deputy to think that that was not the force of my argument. My argument was that we were going to have waste. However, it is all right.

Mr. C. Lehane

I am dealing with it in the words which the Deputy used.

Mr. de Valera

I may have used them.

Mr. C. Lehane

Deputy de Valera was critical that, even if this was a start, it was a start on such a small scale that it would be ineffectual. I am not concerned and neither do I think Deputies should be unduly concerned with anything save what appears in the text of the Bill. What it may be possible to do by this news agency in the immediate future may be limited. I approach the consideration of this Bill on the basis of what the Bill proposes to do and as regards what the Bill proposes to do the kernel and the central point of it is contained in Section 7 where the type of agency supposed to be set up is described. Any discussion of this Bill which ignores sub-section (2) of Section 7 must be merely a discussion or a consideration not for the purpose of critically appraising the Bill, but of attacking it no matter what it contains. Sub-section (2) of Section 7 sets out the object of the agency which "shall be so stated in the memorandum of association that the principal function of the agency shall be to ensure the collection, dissemination, distribution and publication of news and intelligence inside and outside the State." If this Bill proposes to give us a new and better vehicle for so disseminating news about Ireland inside and outside the State and of collecting that news, then I think the Bill should secure the support of any Deputy who approaches it in an objective or honest manner.

Mr. Lemass

Hear, hear! If the Bill was likely to do that I would support it.

Mr. C. Lehane

That is what the Bill purports to do. I repeat that what Deputies should have regard to is what the Bill itself contains. The provisions of the Bill are the matters to which Deputies should have regard and not the obiter dicta of people either opposing it or supporting it.

Deputy de Valera again suggested that the Minister was approaching this from the wrong angle but, as far as I could understand from him, he did not enlighten the House as to what he thought would not be the correct angle. This Bill may not be perfect, but at least one can say that in this Bill an attempt is being made to do something which, I think, all of us will readily admit requires to be done. Arthur Griffith talked about the paper wall round Ireland, the paper wall which shut out news from us from the outside and which prevented us from telling our story to the rest of the world. This Bill, to my mind, is an attempt to batter down whatever remnants of that paper wall are left. I think that perhaps the mistake the Minister made— it is typical of everything the Minister does—was that he erred on the side of modest understatement in respect of what he thought might be achieved under this, and because the Minister did not come in here prepared to launch on the heads of Deputies a torrent of ballyhoo about the wonderful things that were going to be achieved, he is attacked by the Deputies opposite.

Mr. Lemass

He refused to answer simple questions.

Mr. C. Lehane

Deputy Cowan, to my mind, did not discuss the terms of this Bill at all. Deputy Cowan utilised the occasion for a piece of gratuitous stunting. It is not pleasant for any of us to say these things about a colleague but I feel that any Deputy with any honesty in him must reprobate the stunting carried out by Deputy Cowan. He told us that he was sent here to consider the problems of unemployment and hunger. What does he think the rest of us were sent here for? He talked about the waste of Parliamentary time. I think that came ill from a Deputy who has wasted more of the time of this House than any Deputy on these benches. I do not think Deputy Cowan's contribution to the debate merits serious consideration at all.

Then we had Deputy Lemass. The Deputy frequently brings to the consideration of matters in this House a point of view with which many of us on these benches feel ourselves in sympathy; but Deputy Lemass, in approaching this particular measure, did so from the point of view that he was using this opportunity for making a personal attack on the Minister. I took a rather unusual course after Deputy Lemass had used the word "fake". I am not quite sure how many times he used it, because I was not, up to that stage, counting, but I took the unusual course after that of counting the number of times in which he used the word "fake". He used it 11 times. He availed of this opportunity to get out of his system some of the pique, spleen and bitterness that apparently he feels for the Minister and which is shared by most of his colleagues—for the Minister and for the members of Clann na Poblachta in particular. Remember that in the eyes of the Fianna Fáil Party the members of Clann na Poblachta Party are the principal enemy. Clann na Poblachta are people who draw forth all the vitriol and all the venomed bitterness that is in Fianna Fáil.

If the Minister had brought in this Bill in any other form, would he not also have been open to criticism? The machinery which this Bill proposes makes it possible to set up a company, not controlled solely by the Government, but a company in respect of which there are certain safeguards. I think the mistake that Deputies opposite made, and I think the mistake that Deputy Lemass made, was the mistake of imagining the worst of everybody. I believe he should have waited a little bit longer until he would find out more about this measure.

Mr. Lemass

What are the safeguards like?

Mr. C. Lehane

I believe if the Minister had brought in this Bill in any other form, he would be told that there were not safeguards provided.

Mr. Lemass

Are there any?

Mr. C. Lehane

There is provision in the Bill for a certain number of directors. Would it not have been wiser for Deputy Lemass to wait until such time as he saw what directors were appointed and then let him make his case against the Minister?

Mr. Lemass

Is there any reason why we should not be told about them now?

Mr. C. Lehane

Deputy Lemass wanted to make a point on Section 7. He wanted to know what were the other functions—there was a reference to principal functions. Deputy Lemass knows as well as I do that the memorandum of any company sets out many things which it is most unlikely the company will ever do, but it is considered wise and cautious to insert them.

Mr. Lemass

Why can we not see the memorandum?

Mr. C. Lehane

I suggest that that was one of the dishonest debating points which do the Deputy no credit.

Mr. Lemass

Will the Deputy support an amendment aiming to ensure that the memorandum will come before the Dáil for approval?

Mr. C. Lehane

The Deputy is prepared to support the Bill in its present form. There was one point made by the Minister and there was no attempt made to answer it. It carries complete conviction and it is this, that ours is the only country in Europe that has not got a news agency of this nature. Do Deputy Lemass and his colleagues suggest that we are in a position different from any of the other small European countries? He quoted the Minister as saying that there was not in this country a frequency of events of international importance. That would apply equally to other small European countries, yet they have their news agencies. Why do Deputy Lemass and Deputy de Valera and other members of the Fianna Fáil Party want to stifle, to gag, this country and prevent the people having at their disposal the facilities available to every other country?

Mr. Lemass

It is the Government that will do that—it will prevent the development of any news agency.

Mr. C. Lehane

Perhaps the Deputy has given me the source of his pique. Perhaps there is in the minds of the denizens of Burgh Quay the idea of starting a commercial news agency?

Mr. Lemass

For ourselves only— exclusive—truth in the news.

Mr. C. Lehane

Perhaps that explains the attitude of the Party opposite, but it does not condone it. I suggest that if this Bill were approached objectively, dispassionately and calmly, even if it were taken on the lines of the approach of Deputy de Valera, we could have a real discussion, but from the moment the Minister introduced the Bill it was obvious there was an atmosphere about to be created which would make a dispassionate and a calm consideration of the Bill impossible. In conclusion, let me quote an old Irish proverb: "Bíonn gach tosnu lag". Well, maybe it is a weak beginning, but it is a beginning and as such it should not be opposed in the manner in which it has been opposed by Deputies opposite.

Mr. Corry

I consider it a disgraceful thing that we should be here in the middle of the month of July with the time of the Dáil taken up in this manner, while there have been motions on the Paper for the past 15 months which, if they were considered by this House, might mean a comfortable life or bankruptcy for the unfortunate farmers. There are motions that were put in by Deputy Cogan, for instance, endeavouring to relieve the farmers of rates——

An Ceann Comhairle

That has nothing to do with this Bill and the Deputy need not finish his sentence.

Mr. Corry

I am objecting that the time of the House should be given by the Government to a Bill like this and time will not be given for the consideration of important motions that are on the Paper. I have a very definite objection to that. I remember that during the last general election we heard a lot about the tired old men who were the members of the Executive Council and who were worn out in the service of the State and were of no more use. I did not think then that the newcomers, the new blood that arrived, would, after a few short months, get so tired and weary of their job. We had the spectacle here last week of one unfortunate Minister endeavouring to prevent the public from writing letters to Departments——

An Ceann Comhairle

That has nothing to do with the Bill and if the Deputy insists on finishing such sentences he will not finish many of them.

Mr. Corry

Very well, Sir. What is this Bill for? This is a Bill to provide, out of public funds, extra assistance for the Minister for External Affairs to do the job he should do. We have heard a lot about paper walls. The last Minister for External Affairs, the present Leader of the Opposition, succeeded, during the emergency, when it was difficult if not practically impossible to get news out of this country, in getting the news out with regard to our attitude to the European struggle and the reasons for our neutrality. He got that news disseminated to the four corners of the earth without any of those new fangled news agencies that will now be clapped on the backs of the people.

Only last week I met a doctor of a mental hospital who had gone abroad. As an excuse for getting £100 a year extra for two other doctors to do his work while he was away, he told us that there were ten men in Switzerland doing the same amount of work as he does. Apparently that is the ground for this Bill introduced by the Minister for External Affairs; he wants to get somebody else to relieve him of the work that the State pays him to do. I object to the attitude of the Minister for External Affairs.

Mr. MacBride

Do not object on my behalf. Object on your own, if you like.

Mr. Corry

I am speaking on the Minister's behalf. I think that is a very wrong attitude for the Minister to take.

Mr. MacBride

Do not speak on my behalf, please.

Mr. Corry

I object to this lugging in of Bills here to set up this, that and the other in order to relieve the Ministers of work.

Mr. Timoney

Has the Deputy read the Bill?

Mr. Corry

Now, we have another lawyer. I wonder how the lawyers manage to talk here considering what they manage to get in fees for saying a few words in other places. They are wasting their lungs here. I wonder what this news will be that will be disseminated under this Bill.

A Deputy

Your speech!

Mr. Corry

I wonder what information will be disseminated inside the State. I am more concerned with that than I am with anything that may be disseminated outside. I wonder will special news be given as to why the unfortunate farmers are getting only 1/8 a lb. for home-made butter. Is that the form of information for which this news agency will be paid? Will the unfortunate farmers who see their crops burned up by the sun and whose milk is daily becoming lower and lower in the churn get from this news agency something that will enable them to improve their position. Or will they be told that they are happy men now getting the same price for their milk as they did in 1947.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy might return to the measure before the House.

Mr. Corry

This is the Bill before the House.

An Ceann Comhairle

The price of milk is not before the House and the Deputy knows that.

Mr. Corry

The Bill is for the setting up of a limited company by the Minister for External Affairs for the collection, dissemination and publication of news and information inside and outside the State. I am dealing with the news and information which I think he will disseminate inside the State.

Mr. Timoney

It is a bit late now to start reading the Bill.

Mr. Corry

And I suggest some of the types of news and information he should disseminate. I do not wish to take up the time of the House. I can see no necessity whatever for bringing this Bill into force and occupying the time of the House on it when we could be much more usefully employed on other very urgent matters at this season of the year.

Mr. Fitzpatrick

Do not delay us here then and let us get on with the urgent matters.

Mr. Corry

The Deputy does not seem to be in much of a hurry at any time. Even when the bell rang the other night he was late for "supper". I certainly have a very definite objection to occupying the time of the House on a Bill of this kind and I have a very definite objection to this proposed news agency. What is its purpose? It is an excuse for laziness in the Minister's Department. I can see no other justification for it. The Minister seemed to be anxious this evening about my attitude towards Partition. I was honestly amazed at the Minister. I throw my mind back to the one occasion on which I dealt with what I thought would be a cure for Partition. I drew down upon my head the wrath and anger of all the gods here. The only crumb of comfort I was offered was when the present Minister for External Affairs met me outside, clasped me by the hand and said: "Good boy, Martin, I am glad you had the pluck to tell the truth." The Minister has managed to cash in very successfully on the republican ideas he had then.

Mr. MacBride

I think we should have a photograph of me shaking hands with the Deputy.

Mr. Corry

The Minister has succeeded in changing his views so often that we, who hold to the one idea and have our own views as to the ways and means of ending Partition, are in somewhat of a difficulty. We hold our own views but we give others the chance of trying other ways first.

Mr. MacBride

What are the Deputy's views as to the solution of Partition?

Mr. Corry

They are the same to-day as they were when the Minister congratulated me on having them, and told me that they were the same views as he himself held. Times have changed and the Minister has changed. I have not changed.

Mr. MacBride

What were the Deputy's views then?

Mr. Corry

That is the trouble. That is the trouble with the Minister. I do not want to delay the House but I do object to public money being spent in order to relieve pressure of work— work which should be done by Ministers and by Departments.

Mr. Davin

I am disagreeably surprised at the attitude adopted towards this machinery measure—for that is all it is—by Deputy de Valera, because nobody knows better than he does himself that while he was head of the Government for a period of 16 or 17 years he received what I would describe as "slavish" support from all opposition Deputies for his method of presenting the foreign policy of this country both at home and abroad. Naturally one would expect that now, when he is in opposition and with the experience that he himself has had and the knowledge that he has acquired, he would at least adopt the same generous attitude to the Minister who has replaced him in this Government.

I have always taken a very keen interest in the statements made by the Minister for External Affairs on his annual Estimate in regard to foreign policy. I always took it that it was proper for a back bencher to sit tight and make it appear to the world, as I think we have done up to the present, at any rate, that there is unity amongst all Parties on the foreign policy of the Government of the day; and that, as there is unity on the question of policy, there is naturally unity in the manner of presenting that policy both at home and abroad. I take it that it can be assumed that our policy must be explained to the people across the Border as well as to America, Australia and elsewhere. I take a keen interest in talking to people who travel round the world.

It is my pleasure to know and talk very often with Irish officers who man Irish ships and who also serve on foreign ships. There is no more interesting conversationalist than the intelligent seaman who travels to countries like Australia, New Zealand, the United States of America, Canada and elsewhere. I have received many letters from and I have had recent conversations with such people stating that our position in relation to recent events, particularly the passage of a certain Bill in the British Parliament, is very much misunderstood and misrepresented in foreign countries. It is imperative that Deputies on both sides of the House should understand that and it is imperative that there should be unity as to the method to be adopted by the responsible Minister in helping to remove these misunderstandings. I received a letter, which I have in my possession at the moment, from a family relative in New Zealand. I could read it to the House but I would not do so because I do not think it is right to put what is in that letter on the records of this House. I received a similar point of view from an officer of an Irish ship. He was recently in Canada and the United States and he is going back to the United States again. As a result of these conversations I think it is extremely desirable that some manner of machinery should be adopted by the Minister of the day in order to get our foreign policy on our present position explained, not alone to the native citizens of foreign States but to the Irish in many of the countries that I have mentioned.

It is regrettable, therefore, that we should have this attitude adopted by Deputy de Valera who must know from his own experience and his contacts— perhaps as many and may be more than the contacts of the Minister—the necessity and desirability of doing these things. It is stated at home and abroad, in my constituency as well as everywhere else, that if Deputy de Valera was in office to-day and holding the position that is held by Deputy MacBride as Minister for External Affairs, the so-called misunderstanding with our neighbouring nation would not have been created and would not have arisen. It is desirable that that atmosphere of suspicion and misunderstanding should be removed. Deputy de Valera can play a very great part in helping to remove that misunderstanding by endeavouring to agree with the responsible Minister as to the policy to be put across and the machinery to be used in order to explain our present policy and remove these misunderstandings.

I was forced to my feet—I am a bit nervous in taking part in any discussion on foreign policy—by the bringing into this discussion of the question of the best method to be used for the removal of Partition. If it is not out of order for me to say that, I had a recent experience in my constituency which I am sure I will never have again in connection with this matter. I am referring to what took place and to the speeches that were made at a meeting held in my constituency under the auspices of the Anti-Partition League. I confess, to Deputy Cowan in particular, that I went rather reluctantly. The Tánaiste will confirm that. I agreed to go with others to address this meeting and to take part in the proceedings. I understood and I found I was wrong that the Anti-Partition League in this country was carrying out a policy that was in accordance with the wishes of the Mansion House Unity Committee. When I arrived at this town in my constituency with another colleague, who sits on this side of the House, I asked the secretary of the Anti-Partition League, to make sure of my ground——

An Ceann Comhairle

Will the Deputy say what this has to do with the Bill?

Mr. Davin

I want to relate it to this point, that I assume, and I am sure a lot of others assume, that the machinery of this measure, when it comes into operation, is going to be used to deal with the question of the policy of this Government in regard to the removal of the Border.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is a great assumption and a mighty jump to an Anti-Partition meeting. Even on such an assumption, the matter of Partition is not open for discussion now.

Mr. Davin

Are you saying that the machinery of this measure cannot be used to explain in foreign countries our policy in relation to Partition and the methods to be adopted by this country —Constitutional methods, and I emphaise that word—to be used for the removal of the British?

An Ceann Comhairle

I am saying that Partition is not the question at issue for discussion and particularly the action of an Anti-Partition League in the Deputy's constituency.

Mr. Davin

Several Deputies before me introduced this question of Partition and got away with it.

An Ceann Comhairle

I heard about two words from one Deputy.

Mr. Davin

Deputy Cowan repeated, apparently in response to a query by the Minister, his proposal for the removal of Partition. That was quite in line with the speech that was delivered in my constituency on the occasion referred to, namely, that the Army at this stage should be used to march across the Border and that automatically the Border would then be removed.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am sure the Deputy is not deliberately being disorderly and disobeying the Chair. He would not know how. I take it that the Deputy's disorder is not deliberate.

Mr. Davin

I took a note of the words used by Deputy Cowan and another Deputy on that matter. I want to say in conclusion that having listened in, I hope, a dispassionate way to some of the speeches from the Opposition Benches I can only come to one conclusion, that the opposition of a number of the Deputies and particularly Deputy Lemass to this measure is not opposition to the contents of the Bill itself so much as it is opposition to, and a lack of confidence on the part of Deputy Lemass in, the Minister for External Affairs. He will have to administer this measure when it comes into law. I am not going to share the opposition to a measure of this kind for personal and spiteful reasons and I have no hesitation whatsoever in saying that I shall give my unqualified vote for the Second Reading of this Bill.

Mr. Little

No matter how one tries to be constructive in a Bill like this it is very difficult on account of the confirmed suspicions that are in one's mind. However, I will not emphasise or delay in speaking about the convictions that we have of the Party bias which has been used in external propaganda as well as at home. The first principle which I must say we always tried to enforce—I am sorry the Minister has gone out—was that as a sacred trust the propaganda carried on outside this country should always observe silence with regard to differences between Parties at home. I myself had the experience of seeing how the Irish race abroad suffered when they had to take part in controversy at home. For that reason, one has to speak with a good deal of care and caution about how propaganda should be carried on abroad and one naturally distrusts any machine that is going to be used outside this country when we have had evidence already of these attacks being made upon the Leader of the Opposition and the Fianna Fáil Party outside Ireland. That is a sacred trust which I would even now impress upon the Government to observe. However they may use the machinery of the short-wave station or their diplomatic channels, they should observe that sacred trust of remaining absolutely silent on questions of domestic difference and deal only with national issues with the object of raising the national prestige of Ireland abroad. You cannot raise the national prestige by talking about domestic quarrels any more than you can expect neighbours to respect your family if you talk about your private quarrels outside.

Apart from that, on the practical side, I was very interested in the quotations that were made because they referred to countries of which I have had experience. On the practical side, I think that that work should be done by our representatives. I do not know what some of our representatives would be doing if they were not doing that work. The problem is not the issue of a news sheet of any sort; the problem is to get the ear of the papers.

The way in which the British publicity people managed during the war was to get hold of the editors and proprietors of papers in Britain. That is the problem in Britain with us to-day. Anybody with experience of propaganda in Britain will know that the doors of the great newspapers are shut against us. If the editors and proprietors are against us, as Deputy Cowan said, the news sheets will go into the waste paper baskets, unless by some means through diplomatic channels or otherwise, contact is made, with the proprietors, especially because they pay the piper and naturally they will call the tune.

In regard to publicity in other countries, South America for instance, we were able to carry on a very effective and considerable publicity from Buenos Aires with all the other countries at a very small expense because we had friends in Chile, Uruguay, Brazil and Bolivia. When we got bulletins from home we were able to turn them into bulletins suitable to the place of publication. We had them properly translated, sent out to these countries and in a week or two afterwards we would get the papers in Spanish back again with our news prominently displayed, because we had friends there and they did it for love of the country. You can always get honorary consuls in these countries because they have a patriotic feeling which sometimes grows more intense the further they are away. They are men who are prominent citizens in these countries, who have the ear and the friendship of the editors of these papers. Spending money on a news sheet is quite useless unless you have that other machinery which I have mentioned. I take it that would be the normal function of our consulates and Ministers in these countries so that really I do not see there is any particular need for the expense involved in the creation of a newsagency. I am sure if there were fees to be paid for special writers that could easily be dealt with.

The present time is not like the period when the struggle in Ireland was passing through its bitterest phase, when the propaganda was of a sensational nature and it was so vital that news should be given to the world of the fighting that was going on at home. At present it is a matter of trying to answer hostile and ignorant criticism of the country. It is a question of putting the qualities of our culture, our interests and so on before the people of the world, not necessarily in the daily papers but in the reviews and papers which contain serious studies and articles. That is the way in which we should be able to get at the ear of the influential world.

Mr. Davin

You must have an answer to the whispering campaign that is going around.

Mr. Little

The only way you can do that is by personal contacts and by bulletins. That should be the first and most important work of our consuls and honorary consuls and we need not spend a great deal of money on them. Again the approach must be to different sections of the public. The most difficult to get at are the British. The non-British are easier to get at. I was very amused to hear the quotation from The Round Table about the leading newspapers in Buenos Aires because I must say I used to enjoy the un-British and unbiased news which came through from Havas and other agencies which were not under British control. I do not know of any papers in these countries which are in advance of Prensa and La Nacion in Buenos Aires for a really high-minded view of international affairs. In some ways you get a better picture of European affairs from these papers than you would get if you were at home. There is also this fact to be considered. There are big commercial connections between firms in Great Britain and firms in centres like Buenos Aires who advertise largely in these papers. In that way the British have a certain amount of influence and the papers have to be very careful not to offend the British beyond a certain point, as we found out.

These difficulties are not going to be met by the establishment of a news agency such as the Minister has foreshadowed. I think they must be met in a more detailed way. They must be dealt with through the machinery of the Department, through Minister, consuls or honorary consuls. If you publish a good bulletin dealing with trade matters, cultural matters, history and with the misrepresentation which exists in regard to this country, those bulletins going out from here could be adapted, as we used to adapt them, to local circumstances and could be published in the local papers abroad. Again, the matter might be dealt with by getting articles into the papers through personal contact, or else by letters to the papers which sometime foreign papers are ready to publish. The Buenos Aires Herald, for instance, was always very fair to us in that way even though it was not always our way of thinking. I think that is the only method by which we can carry on propaganda abroad judging by the experience which we have had in the past. I hope the Minister will take our advice from this side of the House. There are these practical difficulties that the papers sometimes will not publish what is circulated by news agencies.

Mr. MacBride

I notice that the Deputy has a most reasonable approach to the whole matter and I want to be absolutely reasonable with him in setting out very briefly the problem. There are, for instance, as I indicated earlier, between 3,000 and 4,000 newspapers in America and before you can expect any of these newspapers in the United States, in the Argentine, in Australia, or even in Europe, to publish Ireland's viewpoint you must make material available to them in a news form that they can publish. That is the problem that has to be got over.

Mr. Little

One can only speak about this matter from one's own experience and I think the sheet that would be issued, such as is issued by Sweden and other countries without having any elaborate machiney behind it, would be more effective and more valuable, because my experience was that the bulletin I would get from home would have to be adapted to local circumstances so that we could use it. A very moderate increase of expense in the Department of External Affairs should be able to supply the necessary machinery so that the contacts would be made. You can hardly reach all the thousands of papers but you probably can reach syndicates which syndicate to those papers. It depends very largely on the personal influence of individuals in towns. I think it should be possible to get honorary consuls or even patriotic people of the Irish race to help in that way without any unnecessary expense at all.

Mr. Briscoe

What about Press Attachés?

Mr. Little

It is useless to go out first to the non-Irish people, especially to the British. You have to operate through the Irish race. We tried all this. We burnt our fingers by going to the wrong people. First you have to get the Irish race to do it. There is one thing I would impress upon the Government and the Minister—I mentioned it in the beginning of my speech—that is, to regard it as a sacred trust to be absolutely silent on questions of differences in politics at home.

Mr. MacBride

I am in complete agreement.

Mr. Little

It is absolutely necessary to avoid any statement about an attack upon one's political opponents. I had experience of it, because I was in Buenos Aires when the Treaty was signed and I could see how our own people there were scattered and confused and embittered by what had happened at home and they had no leadership which could hold them together. For that reason, I would impress on the Minister that that is absolutely essential. I think there is a very grave suspicion, with evidence to support it, that so far, that principle has not been properly observed but it is the one principle in this case that I would impress upon the Minister. I do think that before he goes further with this Bill he should at least postpone it for the time being and try the other method first and see how that works out. Certainly, the criticism made by the Leader of the Opposition was made in the spirit of really practical experience and it was not made out of any sense of wishing to be destructive of anything that would be for the good of the nation as a whole.

Mr. S. Collins

With a certain amount of deliberate intent, I kept myself free from most of the discussion in this House on this particular measure, because I hoped to view it in an earnest and abstract way. I look upon this Bill purely as an enabling Bill and that the purpose that will ultimately be served by this news agency is at the moment in embryo. I am not going to offer any criticism of the past and I might say initially that I thoroughly and absolutely agree with the sentiments of Deputy Little that, no matter what purpose this news agency may ultimately serve, it must serve the purpose of disseminating throughout the world a united Ireland as far as external affairs is concerned. I think we have had too bitter a history in this country of the reverse. We should by now have learned the lesson that whatever Parties we may believe in in this House, internationally, we must face the world as a united Ireland, on common issue where our external relations are concerned.

I have said that I view this Bill purely as an enabling Bill, an enabling Bill to do this much—to disseminate throughout the world in a reasoned and authoritative way the views of Ireland on certain issues. It will have a second side to it. It will have there ready at hand prepared information to counteract some of the many stupid, malicious and foolish statements about Ireland that appear in many of the newspapers of the world. I cannot understand people being overtly suspicious of something that has not been tried. I feel sincerely that the Leader of the Opposition, Deputy de Valera, is as anxious as any member of this House that the full impact of the Irish point of view in an Irish way should be placed before the world and I think that our purpose would be far better served in this House if we were to give the Minister and his effort a hearty blessing and a good wish rather than a type of biased and bitter criticism.

I am, fortunately, removed by my extreme youth from differences and bitternesses that may have upset people in the past, but I do think that before we embark on criticism of this Bill we should view it for what it is and not for more than it is. It is an enabling Bill to allow the Minister for External Affairs to set up a type of news agency. It may be that that news agency may do this country a world of good. Why do not we, in a manly and straightforward way, give it a chance before we try to damn it, either with faint praise or queer suspicions?

I have a peculiar view. I have only a very limited knowledge of people throughout the world but I have a fair knowledge of certain people of my own age throughout the British Isles and part of Europe. I am not saying this in any spirit of criticism but in a spirit of interest and from my own experience, but no matter how we may gull ourselves into the belief that our point of view has got across to the world, it has not. There is no good in trying to tell me that the Irish point of view has been put in an Irish way to the world.

I am going to pay this tribute and pay it unashamed to the ex-Minister for External Affairs, Deputy de Valera, that he did his honest best in a courageous way to get his point of view across. He had to meet many difficult circumstances and it may have been that in those peculiar circumstances the full benefit of his efforts was not felt throughout the world. I think he did that in a genuine way. I think we should view the efforts of the present Minister for External Affairs in the same way. It may be that this may not succeed to the extent the Minister for External Affairs hopes it will succeed, but, at least, let us get together here in a manly and friendly way to give it God speed and a fair chance.

Nothing is more needed at the moment than that the world should know the grievances and the bitter grievances that this country labours under. There is no man in this House who is not extremely conscious of the cancer and rot that Partition is creating in this country. There is nobody in this House who is not anxious that the Irish point of view should be disseminated throughout the length and breadth of the world. I think there is a chance that through this Bill that may be achieved. I say to this House, in an earnest and manly way, let us give it that chance, let us all give it that blessing rather than come here in any spirit of suspicion or criticism of the Bill.

Deputy Lemass was talking about articles of association and memoranda. I will give the Opposition a present of all the articles of association and all the memoranda of companies that they like if this Irish news agency goes a part of a foot forward towards putting the Irish point of view to the world. This is a matter in which there should not be an effort at either Party politics or cheap gibes. This is a matter that is going, at least, to make an earnest effort to do something that we all believe in. Let it be a failure but give it its chance before we call it a failure. It is no good, and it is not in the interest of any of us and it is not a credit to any of us, to make any kind of an issue out of this. It reflects no credit anywhere if members of the Opposition are trying to nail this as something to benefit Clann na Poblachta or if, as Deputy Little said, there are a whole lot of suspicions about it. There is no benefit in that. In my opinion, it is rank dishonesty, because we are by this going to try in this country a new experiment, an experiment which has been carried out successfully by many countries in Europe.

Why are we not big enough and men enough in this House to give it a chance? Why do we have to make it a political issue? I am quite sure that the Leader of the Opposition, Deputy de Valera, in his heart of hearts is really anxious that this should serve the purpose for which it is designed. Let us all get together behind it and give it a chance. It is not going to redound to the credit of any individual or any Government. This country and the interests of this country must be put first. If, through this medium, the least bit of benefit can be done to the Irish cause and to the ultimate reunification of the country, I think the Minister is justified in every action he has taken; I think this Government and this Parliament are justified in saying "God speed to that effort". Do not let us kill it before it starts. Do not let us enter into criticism about what could have been done and was not done.

I am prepared to concede with absolute sincerity that the best possible efforts were made by the late Government to disseminate the Irish point of view throughout the world. I think the best possible advance was made by the honest statements made by Deputy de Valera when in charge of the Department of External Affairs. I think he made that effort and that he will be unworthy of himself and the national service he has given to the country if he does not now give his blessing at least to this effort. Let us forget suspicions and give this agency a chance to disseminate the Irish point of view to the world. Let us keep Party politics in Dáil Éireann and let our news go out from a united people determined to reunite the whole of Ireland.

Mr. Moran

I think it is a great pity that Deputy Collins did not tender some of the excellent advice he has given us to some of his colleagues over there, particularly when holding forth to this House and to the public that Deputy de Valera was an old man and that nothing was done by the Fianna Fáil Government about Partition. It was very nice to hear Deputy Collins holding forth now with regard to what was done, but it is very hard to remove the mud which was slung at the Fianna Fáil Party and Government on the ground of alleged inactivity about a question like Partition when they were in office.

Let us take this Bill as it stands. What exactly is behind the Bill? Is it a prestige measure? I think we shall all have to agree that, whatever may come out of it, nothing else except some prestige for the present Minister for External Affairs can emanate from the results of this Bill. The preamble to it provides for the promotion by the Minister for External Affairs of a limited company for the collection, dissemination and publication of news and information inside and outside this State and to provide for other matters connected therewith. Why inside the State? What necessity is there for a news agency to disseminate news inside the State unless that agency wants to disseminate news of the type which the Minister for External Affairs wants to edit?

It has been stated that one of the necessities for the success of a police State is to get control of the Press in some way. We were not told by the Minister in introducing the Bill what are the implications of this business of the dissemination of news inside this State. Where is the necessity for the dissemination of news inside this State, outside the existing organisations that we have, to a free Press? Are we going to have a further turn given to the official news disseminated by the Government Information Bureau? For instance, are we going to have it suggested that when certain events take place, even in this House, they are not of sufficient news value to be given over the radio to listeners throughout the country? Are we going to have the free Press in this country put in the position that they cannot publish anything from an official point of view except what may be provided by these unknown gentlemen that we are going to have under Section 17, or Part III, of the Bill?

Mr. MacBride

Is there anything in the Bill that is open to that construction?

Mr. Moran

The Minister is a lawyer.

Mr. MacBride

What is the Deputy?

Mr. Moran

I am also one, I admit. I refer the Minister as a lawyer to that portion of the Preamble and the Long Title which refers to the dissemination of news inside and outside the State. I further want to refer him to Section 7 (2) which states:—

"The objects of the agency shall be so stated in the memorandum of association that the principal function of the agency shall be to ensure the collection, dissemination, distribution and publication of news and intelligence inside and outside the State."

One of the objects of this agency, according to Section 7 and the Long Title, is to disseminate news inside the State. I want to know from the Minister why that is included in the Bill?

Mr. MacBride

Will the Deputy allow me to answer? If he wants information, I shall give it to him immediately.

Mr. Moran

I am asking the Minister to tell us that when replying. I want to know why this power is contained in the Bill to take what I consider the control of the Press in this country?

Mr. MacBride

Would the Deputy like me to answer now?

Mr. Moran

Yes.

Mr. MacBride

As I indicated in introducing this Bill, I hope that this news agency may, from time to time, be able to be of assistance to our own newspapers by giving to them news of Irish interest in countries abroad. That is one reason. The other reason is, as the Deputy knows quite well, that the memorandum of articles of association of a company and likewise the Act, limits tightly the function of any company. The news agency will, I take it, make available to all the newspaper correspondents that are here, to the news agencies that are here, and to the newspapers that are here any of these genuine releases so that they may have them and so as not to put them at any disadvantage in regard to other countries. Therefore, it is essential to enable the news agency to give to foreign correspondents here and to news agencies' representatives here copies of whatever has been sent out. Unless that is provided for in the Bill, it would be ultra vires on the part of the news agency to do so.

Mr. Moran

The Minister can talk about the articles of association which we have not got. We do not know what is proposed to be incorporated in them. It is all very well for the Minister to say that the company will be limited by what appears in the articles and memorandum of association. The Minister, however, has thought fit to keep the House in the dark as to what is going to appear in the articles and memorandum of association.

Mr. MacBride

I cannot do that until the Bill is passed.

Mr. Moran

Does the Minister seriously ask the House to accept it that he has not already taken steps to deal with all phases of this company, with the setting up of the advisory body and the appointment of directors? He has not told us what their salaries are going to be. Is he asking the House to accept the proposition that, at this stage, he could not put before it the proposed articles and memorandum of association of this company?

Mr. MacBride

I have not seen them. I will not be entitled to spend a penny until this Bill has been passed by the Oireachtas.

Mr. Moran

The Minister is well aware that there is nothing to prevent him from putting before the House the provisional articles and memorandum of association, so that it and the country would know what the obligations are going to be as a result of the setting up of this company. The Minister is cutely providing that the powers of this company will be determined by the articles and memorandum of association, and he is going to keep them in his pocket until the Bill is passed.

The Minister told us that this proposed agency is not going to be a news agency. As I understood him, he said its functions will be to provide information of a cultural and possibly trade nature, with some general information about this State. Deputies get that sort of stuff in the circulars which they receive week after week from other Governments and other sources. The Minister says that this agency will not deal with "hot news". He did make the statement, a significant one, from the point of view of Deputies on this side, that from time to time, and as occasion may warrant it, there will be comments issued on the political situation here. These comments will be made by the Minister, and will be sent out by a body which, under this Bill, will be the creature of the Minister. They will be sent out as the official view of this State, irrespective of what the local situation may be. Anybody who has had experience of the Government Information Service since the present Government came into office will have good reason for viewing with suspicion official statements of that kind which may be sent out.

Mr. O'Leary

What about the Irish Press?

Mr. Moran

The Deputy's Party got £1 in costs from it, anyway. The Minister deliberately stated that political comments may be made from time to time, and these, as I say, will be sent out by a body which will be the creature of the Minister. It will send out the statements which the Minister wants made. These are not the type of statements that I, as one Deputy, want to go out as representing the views of the majority of the people of this country.

I think that some of the supporters of the Bill have claimed that it will raise the prestige of this country abroad. What is the record of the Party opposite on this question of prestige? How many lectures have the people generally and this House heard from them about Fianna Fáil squandermania? How many lectures have members of the Government opposite given us about the Constellations with which we had the prospect of earning some dollars for this country? The Irish taxpayer will be bled white under this Bill.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy cannot discuss other expenditure under this Bill.

Mr. Moran

I am suggesting that this is a prestige Bill, but what is the record of the Minister and of his colleagues on the matter of the prestige of this State?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That does not arise.

Mr. Moran

If the Chair so rules, I cannot pursue that. I can ask this: if the Minister and his colleagues were anxious that the Irish point of view should reach people outside this country, why did they stop the erection of the short-wave radio station? Why did they consider that project Fianna Fáil squandermania, a station that could have served this purpose far better than this Bill proposes to do? Why did all of them consider that it was national squandermania to erect that short-wave radio station? Is the Minister just bringing in this Bill to try and cover up the attitude of the Government which spiked that Fianna Fáil project?

The Minister and his colleagues are well aware that they are now going ahead with that project because the public have demanded that they do so. Was it to cover up their blunder in that regard that they decided to bring in this Bill? If the Minister was sincere in his opening statement, both he and his colleagues in the Coalition Government would admit that to be so. Does not the Minister know—every journalist knows it—that even though the body proposed to be set up under this Bill sends out articles to the world unless they have some news value the newspapers in foreign countries will at once refer those articles back to their correspondents here and ask "is there anything in these, or are they just more of the Coalition Government's ballyhoo?" Is not that what will happen in practice? The Minister knows quite well that it is.

Mr. MacBride

Nonsense.

Mr. Moran

The Minister must know quite well that, even though a weekly or monthly bulletin is published dealing with matters of general interest to Ireland, unless it contains something in the nature of hot news, no newspapers outside are going to bother their heads publishing what it contains. Has the Minister considered the cost of this? There have been some sneers at what the Leader of the Opposition said about the cost. If we are going to spend money on it, then we certainly should see that we will get value for our money. If we consider that there is a better way of spending this money and of achieving the object which the Bill is supposed to have in view, then that is something which the Dáil could take a note of.

We have heard very many lectures about squandermania in the matter of public money, particularly by the previous Government. I think we should examine the Bill carefully to see how far we are committed to expenditure under it. The Minister has been notably silent on that. It is significant that, under Section 3, the Minister is taking power to see that any money that is required shall be provided out of moneys voted by the Oireachtas. Is it not rather strange that a section of this sort should find its way into this Bill without any difficulty? A couple of weeks ago we tried to get a similar section inserted in the Works Bill to meet the cost that would fall on Irish farmers, but the Government would not agree to it. The Minister for External Affairs, however, is now able to commit the House under Section 3 to provide him with any money that he may require for the purposes of this Bill, and we do not know how much money he is going to require.

When we come to Part III of the Bill we do not know what the directors are to be paid; we do not know what the advisory board will be paid, if they are paid at all. In fact, we do not know who most of those gentlemen are going to be. If the Minister, when he was introducing the Bill, wanted to get the confidence of the House, he would have been well advised to put his cards on the table and produce his memorandum and articles of association and he would have told the House who these wonderful pressmen will be who will break through this paper wall.

Section 17, which leaves the whole matter in the dark as to who these people will be, must necessarily create an air of suspicion. If the Minister has certain people in mind, why not be open with the House? Why should he not make the case here "I am going to provide A, B or C in this service"? If the Minister so wishes, let him have the courage to stand up and say: "The managing director will be Noel Hartnett and the assistant director will be Roddy the Rover" and let him nominate the other people he proposes to put on this board. If he took the House into his confidence the House would consider that the Minister was genuine in the job he is setting out to do, and that he was asking the House to accept what is set out in this Bill as being something worthy of acceptance.

In my submission, the Bill as introduced has been introduced in a weak way. The Minister is a very able operator and if he had a case to make he is more capable of making one than any other member of the House. In this instance his case is weak because the whole structure of the Bill is weak. The Minister knows that it will not achieve the purpose he has suggested to the House. We all know that it will be a financial disaster. We all know that all that will be done will be to set up some kind of news sheet along the lines of what is issued by the Tourist Board. We all know that the main object of the measure is to make provision for unknown gentlemen at unknown salaries. The Bill should be rejected. If the Minister is well advised he will withdraw it before it goes to a vote.

Mr. M.J. O'Higgins

I think it seems to be generally accepted by all Deputies that the main purpose of this Bill is to do something with regard to the problem of Partition, to do something active, something which was left undone for a very considerable time. Deputies, no matter whether they are on this side or the other side of the House, are perfectly entitled to voice their objections regarding the particular method adopted by the Minister, and, if they can, put forward some concrete proposals; but I think it is very mean of Deputies on the opposite benches not to extend at least some measure of congratulation to this Minister for endeavouring to do something in the direction of removing the Border. For too long have we in this country, all of us, north and south, put up with a situation where there was a policy north of the Border of "not an inch" and south of the Border a policy of "not a word". That is exactly what the position was up to this and every Deputy, whether new or old, is very well aware of the attitude taken up by the Leader of the Opposition when he was on this side of the House and in charge of External Affairs. Deputies are well aware of the attitude taken up by former Fianna Fáil Ministers—that it was embarrassing to them to have Opposition Deputies talking about Partition.

Mr. de Valera

That is completely false.

Mr. Childers

I should like to know from the Chair whether in this debate he will allow the question of the conduct of the Partition policy of the former Government to be discussed in full, because if it is, this will be a very long debate. What is the view in that regard?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The question of Partition does not arise on this Bill.

Mr. MacEntee

May I call the attention of the Chair to the fact that the speech of Deputy O'Higgins has been devoted to an attack on the Opposition for its conduct in relation to Partition?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair has to rely on its own interpretation of what the Deputy said. Deputy O'Higgins has been speaking for exactly one minute; he rose at 7.54 and it is now 7.55.

Mr. M.J. O'Higgins

If I am touching on any sore points, I do not want to continue doing that.

Mr. de Valera

Keep to the truth and you hurt nobody.

Mr. M.J. O'Higgins

There is one Deputy sitting opposite me at the moment who had the audacity in this House to refer to the statement of another Deputy as a damned lie and refused to withdraw that remark. I hope he will at least have the courtesy not to interrupt me when I am making my speech on this Bill.

Mr. Allen

On a point of order. The Deputy has just stated that a Deputy on this side of the House called another Deputy a damned liar and refused to withdraw it.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That does not concern the Chair at this stage, because the Chair has no knowledge of it. The Chair can rule only on matters of order that arise at the moment. Deputy O'Higgins is entitled to proceed with his speech on this Bill.

Mr. M.J. O'Higgins

I have no desire to touch on any of the tender spots of Deputies opposite. Still less have I a desire to follow in the same bitter, ill-tempered, waspish style, such as was adopted by Deputy Lemass when he was dealing with this Bill. The Minister is entitled to some sort of reasoned and reasonable approach from the Deputies opposite. For many months I have been sick and tired of the type of speech coming from the Fianna Fáil Benches—that everything Fianna Fáil mooted was undone by this Government and that the whole approach of this Government was deliberately intended to destroy anything built up by Fianna Fáil. It is now perfectly obvious that Fianna Fáil are determined as best they can to hinder this Government in building up any kind of edifice which may help in the solution of the Border question.

Deputy Moran made one remark with which I agree—I think he only made one with which I could agree. He said that—referring to Fianna Fáil —if they considered there was a better way of approaching this problem, a better way of doing things, that that method deserved consideration by the Minister. I think that is so.

Mr. Fitzpatrick

He did not tell us what it was.

Mr. M.J. O'Higgins

No, but the Leader of the Opposition told us what it was. The method suggested by the Leader of the Opposition, the only alternative put up from the Fianna Fáil Benches up to this stage at any rate, was that instead of having an Irish news agency and instead of doing the work contemplated in this Bill, a particular section of the Department of External Affairs should be set aside and told off to deal with this work; that they should issue monthly or quarterly what, I think, Deputy de Valera referred to as a news sheet of some description, and that they should confine their activities to seeing that that sheet was sent to influential people in various countries abroad. I think that is a fair summary of document No. 2 put up by Deputy de Valera.

As the Minister has said already by way of interjection, that is already being done by the Department of External Affairs and this is an effort to push the work further. In so far as that type of work is already being done by the Department of External Affairs, I think Deputy de Valera will agree that his alternative suggestion— and it is the only alternative that has been suggested in this debate—falls to the ground. I think that the reason why it is necessary that this Bill should be introduced and should be accepted by the House is because the method which was recommended and relied upon by Deputy de Valera is obviously not a good one and is obviously not a method which will obtain any results. Captain Cowan, opposing the Bill, said that news sent to newspaper offices from official Government agencies was put into the waste-paper basket without being opened. I think that is much more true of news, propaganda, news sheets or bulletins, sent out directly by a Department of State, particularly by a Department of State in a country which has a grievance that it is trying to impress upon the world is a legitimate grievance and one that must be remedied.

I had some small doubts as to the merits, or otherwise, of this Bill. Having listened to Deputy Lemass, Deputy Moran and other Opposition Deputies I have no doubts left as to the merits of the Bill. Having listened to them, I feel it is my duty to support this Bill. I am very well aware of the fact that there are people both inside and outside this House who may not feel that this is the best method of approach. I do not know whether or not I am in order, but it is difficult to address one's mind to this particular Bill if one must exclude the problem of Partition from one's considerations. It is perfectly obvious that this Bill is a step towards the solution of that problem.

Deputy de Valera and Deputy Aiken have been severely criticised, mainly by persons outside this House. I have heard them criticised inside the House, too, because of the efforts which they, as individuals and as members of the Opposition Party, have made on their own initiative to pierce what has become known as the "paper wall" which surrounds this problem. There is no doubt since the change of Government both Deputy de Valera and Deputy Aiken have expended a great deal of effort and energy in endeavouring to pierce that paper wall. Again, it is a matter of opinion—contrary opinions have been expressed—as to whether their method of approach was a good one, as to whether it was the best or the worst method. To-day expressions of opinion will again be forthcoming with regard to this Bill. People are quite legitimately entitled to say that this is not a good method of approach and to maintain that there could be a better one. I think any Irish newspaper and any member of this House is perfectly justified in adopting that attitude and holding that the money to be expended on this agency will be money wasted and that another method should be found. Deputies, however, are not entitled to stop there. It is the duty of Deputies in considering this measure to point out what the alternative methods are and to endeavour to be in some degree constructive in their criticism. It should be their endeavour to assist the Minister, who, after all, whether one agrees or disagrees with his political Party, has a very heavy responsibility. Certainly he is active in his Department. I think no Deputy can quarrel with me if I say of him that he is devoting all his energies towards the solution of a problem which has so far defeated the best brains of this country for a considerable number of years. I think he is entitled to our sympathy. He is also entitled to constructive criticism and assistance and help in his task.

I think it was Deputy Corry who taunted the Minister with cowardice and weakness in so far as he was holding out his hand and asking for the co-operation of Deputies in seeking a solution of that problem. I think that is a particularly despicable type of attack. I think Deputies on the Opposition Benches would be perfectly entitled to complain if the Minister, on a question so vital and important to future generations of Irishmen as this question of Partition is, were to come into this House and say: "This is my method; these are my objectives; I shall go forward in this way in spite of you." But, instead of that, the Minister comes into the House and says that he has a proposal to put before the House for its consideration. He recommends its acceptance to the House and he asks for the assistance and co-operation of Deputies in the work he is proposing to do. The outstretched hand of friendship and co-operation is spat upon by Deputies such as Deputy Corry.

I think that Opposition Deputies are in the main people who have a sincere desire to see this country progress towards unity and strength. In their future conduct in these proceedings I appeal to them to keep that ideal and these aspirations in front of them. I appeal to them to endeavour to assist the Minister. If they have something constructive to put forward, let them put it forward. I appeal to them not to talk for the sake of talking, for the sake of opposing and wasting time. This may not be the ideal method. It may not be the ideal solution. If Deputies have reasonable alternatives why not put them forward now and give the Minister an opportunity of considering them? Why merely oppose and merely criticise? It is, of course, the duty of an opposition to be wary and watchful and to oppose when opposition is necessary. But I do not believe that it is the duty of an opposition to oppose indiscriminately on every occasion and to do it in the vexatious, ill-tempered way in which it has been done in this debate.

Mr. G. Boland

The Minister, in introducing this Bill, left me, at any rate, under the impression that we were going to supply "hot news". He started off with a long discourse on the rise of the famous Reuter News Agency. He went on to tell us about Havas, and so on. We all expected that that was the type of service we would have because of the case he built up. The thought entered my mind as to the capital involved in an agency like Reuters. I daresay it is nearer to £25,000,000 than £25,000. But that was the impression given to me by the first part of his speech. At the end then he told us we were not going to deal in "hot news" at all. He did not describe it as "cold news", but he said news of a cultural kind and with relation to trade. I was not at all surprised to hear him say that one of its purposes would be to encourage tourism. He actually did say that. He has changed radically from his original attitude towards tourism during the by-election and the subsequent general election when he referred to us as feeding spivs and demanded that there should be a tax upon them. It is one of the advantages of having a change of Government that people learn something. The Minister, of course, has learned a little bit. He knows now what the responsibility of office means.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

You learned nothing.

Mr. G. Boland

I learned a great deal, but not from the family to which the Deputy belongs.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

Then, listen and learn now.

Mr. G. Boland

Anything I might be taught by that family I certainly would not want to learn. This is not going to be "hot news". It will be about trade and so on. It is hoped that this information about Ireland will find its way into 700 first-class papers in America. As Deputy de Valera pointed out, if it is to be of any value at all, it will not suffice to have an ordinary bulletin once a week or once a month. It will have to be a daily bulletin and a daily bulletin will be a very expensive process. Certainly, £25,000 will not cover it. The Minister quoted a particular friend of his who goes under the pen-name of Nichevo. My recollection of that article, if it is the same one the Minister referred to, was that the ultimate destiny of these bulletins was what he called the W.P.B.—the waste-paper basket. Deputy Cowan said something of the same nature. I have been talking to journalists who have had experience of this type of propaganda. They say that they do not need to open them at all, they can actually smell them. They know they are propaganda. We want news that is not sticking out as propaganda so that it is going to be entirely ineffective. From that point of view the waste-paper basket will be the destination of practically every bulletin.

One way that we can get over censorship, where there is no censorship possible except that exercised by the individual himself, is the radio. People who do not want to listen in can switch off. If we had gone ahead with our short-wave station and let it be known to our people in America and other parts of the world, and perhaps to other well-wishers, that we had this radio station in full operation and that this question we are all so anxious to have understood abroad was to be fully explained to the world, the only censorship that could be applied to that would be the censorship of the individual who did not want to listen. Of course, somebody could get up a counter station to jam it. That could be done, I admit, but that would be a regular news war on a very large scale. I certainly think that if this £25,000 and something more, which is proposed to be expended on that—I do not know whether that is the annual cost or if it is only for the remainder of this year —were devoted to a very powerful station we would do far more good in making our case known. Another thing in which the Government have changed their policy during their 18 months is in agreeing that there is a necessity for that. Although we have lost 18 precious months it is good to know that even at this late hour they are going to proceed with it. The Minister is probably right in saying that I have a personal animosity against him. I do not deny that at all.

Mr. Fitzpatrick

We would not believe you if you did.

Mr. Boland

You would not have cause to have to believe me. I expressed my opinion of the Minister here long ago and I have not seen any reason to change it since. I asked a question as to whether it could be described as a Bill to provide employment for certain defeated candidates of the Clann na Poblachta Party.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

Earlier in this debate objection was taken to references to individuals. Is it in order for this Deputy to attack persons who are not present, as he is proceeding to do?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy did not state that anybody was employed. He asked only if they might be. It is reprehensible on both sides of the House, if both sides will remember that.

Mr. Boland

On that, I have a very good reason for objecting to giving this particular Minister this power. I read some of the Irish-American Press and I have seen references in that Press, written by a person who now, at any rate, is employed by the Government and who happens to be a defeated candidate. Whether he is still writing I cannot say. Whether he has written since he became a civil servant I do not know. I read some of the most objectionable stuff in certain Irish-American papers from that gentleman and I certainly would agree that if this agency is to be set up it would be most desirable that there should be no Party politics, whatever there may be here, when reports went abroad.

Mr. Fitzpatrick

The Deputy enjoyed his articles in the Irish Press for a long time.

Mr. Boland

I never enjoyed it at all. I could not stick it. The Minister did say something, as far as I could understand him, deprecating, whatever we may do here at home, any attempt to bring our Party strife outside the country. I should like everyone to feel like that. A little practice would be worth a lot of precept. We have heard a lot of good suggestions made by the Minister who is a very bad example himself. I have not been abroad recently although I was abroad a good many years ago.

Mr. Fitzpatrick

You went a good distance away.

Mr. Boland

Not so late as the Deputy and for a different reason altogether. I took good care that whenever I met foreigners I was not going to bring in our quarrels. What did the Minister do on his latest trip? He himself said when interviewed by Press men on the radio before he left America on his last trip there that he had to get rid of old de Valera in order to proclaim the Republic.

Mr. MacBride

I beg your pardon, I did not.

Mr. Boland

On the radio, you certainly did.

An Ceann Comhairle

What has this to do with this Bill?

Mr. Boland

It is related to the Bill.

Mr. MacBride

Surely he must have some references to go by, just like Deputy Little yesterday in relation to something else.

Mr. Boland

I am dealing with my own case. I know he said that.

Mr. MacBride

That is not true.

Mr. S. Collins

If a Deputy makes a statement that a Minister said something and the Minister categorically denies it, surely that must be accepted.

An Ceann Comhairle

What the Minister said must be accepted, if he said he did not say it.

Mr. Boland

What about the people who heard him?

An Ceann Comhairle

If the Minister stated that he did not use those words, his statement must be accepted.

Mr. Allen

I should like to know whether what the Minister said——

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Allen need not argue with the Chair.

Mr. Allen

I should like some information on this point.

Mr. Childers

On a point of order. If two friends of mine say they heard Deputy MacBride saying that in America, is that to be withdrawn?

Mr. MacBride

Say what?

Mr. Childers

That Mr. de Valera had to be got rid of in order to declare the Republic.

An Ceann Comhairle

This is not a court of law. The Minister states he did not make certain statements and that must be accepted.

Mr. Allen

If an ordinary Deputy, as apart from a Minister, denies that he made certain statements, must that be accepted by the Minister?

An Ceann Comhairle

Certainly.

Mr. Allen

I just wanted information on that point.

An Ceann Comhairle

All Deputies are equal here before the Chair.

Mr. Boland

I want then to relate that to the Bill. I am objecting to the Minister having this power because of his conduct in matters of this kind. If he says he did not say that, in spite of what these people say, I must accept it but I am put in the difficult position that I have got to say I cannot believe these people who say they heard him. He tries to explain away this article about the "Man of Destiny" where "the old man de Valera" had to be got rid of. That coming also from the Press agency certainly is very suspicious.

Mr. MacBride

Let us at least have the issues as they are. That article was written by a newspaperman. I did not see it until it was published. It was a newspaperman's comments. As soon as I heard what had happened I wrote to the Leader of the Opposition explaining all the circumstances.

Mr. McGrath

After it had been broadcast to the world.

Mr. MacBride

A great many things have been broadcast to the world about me.

Mr. G. Boland

These are the objections I have. The Minister when speaking was a long time in coming to the Bill itself. He took about 50 minutes to come to the Bill. The strangest way I have ever known of recommending a Bill to the House was to quote what the Leader of the Opposition said, not on a Bill to set up a news agency, but on the necessity for a short-wave station. In my experience most Ministers of this House, when bringing a proposal to the House, first made their case for that proposal and then if they were able to quote some member of the Opposition in support of that case, they would do so. But the Minister quite obviously saw that this thing was a fake and he tried to give the impression that the Leader of the Opposition had pointed out the need for such a newsagency. He actually went so far as to ask was I ashamed to hear the opinions of the Leader of this Party. Of course I was not. I did not know exactly what the remarks he quoted had relation to at the time but they were about a short-wave station and not about a news agency at all. I thought it was an extraordinary thing that the Minister should quote from The Round Table of 12 years ago. He read from that for about 20 minutes. Was that not what the Minister was quoting?

Mr. MacBride

I quoted an article written by the head of the Censorship Bureau of the British Government last year.

Mr. Allen

Let the Deputy proceed.

Mr. G. Boland

The Deputy does not mind him at all.

Mr. MacBride

He asked me a question.

Mr. G. Boland

I understood it to be a ruling of the Chair formerly that Deputies coming in here would not be allowed to quote at such length from newspapers. I had plenty of Irish-American papers from which I intended to quote, but I decided not to bring them in, because I thought I would not be allowed to quote from them at length and I did not want to give a mere excerpt. Yet 20 minutes of the time occupied by the Minister were taken up in quoting from The Round Table. We were told about the news stream of the world and the difficulties which the British were experiencing in getting into the world's news stream. The British, with their powerful financial backing, and their experience of 100 or 150 years, were, we were told by the Minister, experiencing some difficulty in getting into the world's news stream. I do not know exactly what the Minister said about Reuter, but I think he said that he started somewhere in the beginning of the last century.

Mr. MacBride

In the middle of the 19th century.

Mr. G. Boland

I must say that I was interested in that, but I was not aware of what the history of Reuter's organisation was. That organisation has found the greatest difficulty in getting into the world's news stream, and here we are with our little puny efforts of £25,000 trying to put it across on these people. What chance have we of getting into the world's news stream when an organisation like that finds so much difficulty in entering it? If the Government are really serious about this matter it is not on a project of this kind they should be spending the money. I think the Minister should go back to the Government and tell them: "I am quite convinced that we made a capital mistake in February, 1948, when we scrapped the short-wave station. We shall spend this money and some more in addition in setting up a powerful short-wave station which cannot be censored by any newspaper clique, which can be censored only by the person who switches off his set". That is the way to approach this problem in the modern world. The air is there and we should take advantage of it and utilise it to the best of our ability. The introduction of this Bill merely shows how well-founded was my suspicion when I asked the question as to whether this Bill was intended to provide jobs for the defeated candidates of the Clann na Poblachta Party.

Mr. Keane

I believe that the object of this Bill is to uplift the cause of the Irish race abroad and to bring about, at the earliest opportunity, the abolition of the Border and to restore the unity of this country. I am afraid that when Major Seán MacBride's son made a gesture towards the Opposition here this evening he was labouring under a very big misapprehension as to exactly the type of co-operation he would get from them. As one who has not been deluded I have been watching those people on the opposite side of the House since the famous date mentioned by Deputy Boland. I can see that there is only one thing troubling them and that is as soon as possible to get back to this side of the House again, every one of them, big, little and small.

Mr. Allen

That would be a tragedy.

Mr. Keane

It would be a tragedy to have a gentleman who travelled widely through Europe on a fact-finding mission for the Hospitals' Trust back here again on this side of the House and to be again provided with the same facilities and assigned the same mission—Deputy Allen. One of the greatest tragedies of the last Administration——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy must come to the Bill before the House.

Mr. Keane

I beg your pardon. I am at the Bill. I am speaking about the fact-finding mission which was sent at one time——

An Ceann Comhairle

On this Bill?

Mr. Keane

This Bill will repair the damage that was done at that time. We hear a lot about paper walls. What happened in 1915 is within the memory of most of us, when the famous Hearst Press of America was absolutely pro-German and, if I may say so, a little bit pro-Irish. Some of us remember reading Scissors and Paste, Sparks and Honesty where excerpts from the Hearst Press were frequently published, but all of a sudden there was a remarkable change, I should say a volte face. The principal reason was that a gentleman called Balfour went across and purchased the Hearst Press, lock, stock and barrel. I believe that until such time as we establish a Press agency, particularly for the United States of America, to give publicity to the cause of Ireland, we shall be just as we are at the present moment. Some of the ex-Ministers over there may treat this as a laughing matter but I am sure it is not much joy they are having. Poker faces have been given, from time to time, to the people so that they can laugh when they want to cry and cry when they want to laugh.

Mr. P.J. Burke

Give them handkerchiefs.

Mr. Keane

I believe that Deputy Burke wants a handkerchief. We have been hearing from him since February, 1948, about poor widows and people out of employment. I heard an ex-Minister stating that he had a private animus against the Minister for External Affairs but so far as I could gather, he was prepared to give vent to that private animus even if the Irish race were misrepresented. It is about time these people thought and thought in such a way that they would become nice, sensible people. Not alone have they command through "Truth in the News" of every bit of propaganda that they would want to put at their Party's disposal but even in very simple matters they utilised their paper when they were in power. Of course, at the moment they cannot at all imagine that we people here could start a paper, not for political propaganda, not for personal propaganda, but for propaganda which would uplift the Irish race.

Mr. P.J. Burke

You are one of the new directors, are you not?

Mr. Keane

Not in Portrane, at any rate. I may be director in some sensible establishment, all right. I believe this is a Bill on which we should get the co-operation of the Opposition and I believe that when this news agency is operating it should as far as possible express the opinion of a united Irish race. I think the Opposition may give their benediction to the Bill at some time or another.

Mr. Childers

I will not detain the House very long on this question. I am not so much concerned with whether it is right to establish this form of Press bureau or whether another form should be established, but I feel it incumbent upon somebody in this House to say a few words to the Minister about one matter of vital importance to the Irish people. I gather that the Minister is not going to give out "hot" news to the world at large and that, therefore, any statements made on such matters as Partition will be very carefully considered and edited, and, whether we like the Bill or do not like it, I have at least some small consolation in that the Minister has told us there will be no "hot" news issued about Partition. I want to state my own point of view on this matter. Ever since about July of last year the propaganda that has been issued from this country on the general question of Partition has been, taken large and wide, extremely unwise and in many cases disastrous. I make that statement deliberately.

Mr. MacBride

Will the Deputy give instances?

Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. Morrissey)

It is a quotation from the Irish Times leading article.

Mr. Childers

I am simply saying that the manner in which things have been said should be reconsidered by everybody.

Mr. MacBride

In fairness. The Deputy is levelling a charge in relation to propaganda issued, presumably, from my Department, in relation to Partition.

Mr. Lemass

Is the Minister entitled to intervene?

An Ceann Comhairle

Not unless the Deputy gives way.

Mr. Lemass

He has not given way.

Mr. Childers

I am not giving way.

An Ceann Comhairle

Very good. Then you cannot be interrupted.

Mr. Childers

I am not accusing the Minister even of making any statements of that kind. I am simply saying that the Minister has an opportunity, now that he is considering propaganda, to consider whether the kind of propaganda that has emerged from this country since August last is going to help our friends to help us to end Partition and whether it is going to assist generally in the campaign for unity.

We have heard statements made by people who went forward in the name of this country as a whole during a recent election which were not desirable statements to make. We have had what I should say would be a sort of optimistic atmosphere engendered in connection with the problem of Partition that has only resulted in the situation being more serious than it was before. I say in all seriousness that if the Minister should receive in his new Press agency statements and speeches made by people, perhaps, of all Parties, by the Head of the State, by people who are related to propaganda agencies of other kinds, dealing with Partition, he would do well to edit them most carefully.

Mr. M.J. O'Higgins

Is the Deputy referring to the President?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is entitled to speak without interruption.

Mr. Childers

Whatever the intentions of the Minister are in regard to Partition, I am quite sure he wishes to see unity established, but, from my knowledge, the way the facts of the situation have been expressed, even though the facts have been correct, has been unhappy in many instances.

I am not trying in any sense to divide the House on this matter. I am not even making individual members of the Government responsible for this. I am simply saying that now we have an opportunity to review the situation. We are now an independent Republic of Twenty-Six Counties outside the Commonwealth of Nations. The fact has been established. We have time now in which to ponder upon how our propaganda in regard to Partition should be carried out, and if one were to read the newspapers abroad since the declaration of the republic, one would find that millions of people in the world who never heard of Ireland, who know very little about us, have now an impression that something of note has taken place and that there is no further problem to be solved. They have been told about the advance the Minister believes he has made towards independence and they have not received any news at all about the problem left to be solved and the fact that this is a partitioned country.

I notice that. I have actually received copies of newspapers from countries such as France and Italy where that has been more than evident and it would seem to me that any attempt to rush the ending of Partition by unwise propaganda should be countered by the Minister by whatever form of propaganda agency he uses, whichever form he employs.

I must say that, looking back at the speeches that have been made in the last nine months, a great deal of the work of any news agency in this country in regard to Partition should be in the nature of a censor's office rather than in the nature of broadcasting. A great deal of the work of any kind of Press bureau, in relation to the kind of things that were being said about Partition during the last six months in general, should be in the nature of the work of a censor rather than in the nature of accepting everything as it comes in and then broadcasting it.

It does not matter whether we believe in the establishment of the 26-county Republic or whether we do not. There are common ideas attaching to the ending of Partition. There are certain problems to be faced. There are certain friends to be kept throughout the world. There are certain people who will be interested in helping us to solve our problems only if we approach the matter in the right way, and all that, I think, should be considered by the Minister very deeply.

We have to rely on our kith and kin abroad to help us in this matter. A great deal of propaganda can be done by Irish people living in remote parts of the world. They have to be kept in touch with events here. A great many of them, for one reason or another, have a certain loyalty to the British Commonwealth. If they are going to help us to end Partition, they have to be approached and encouraged in the right way. They have to be encouraged to take a part with us in ending this problem and not encouraged to stay away from it, not encouraged to take no interest, indeed, to eschew it, if they possibly can. All these things have to be considered very seriously.

It is quite obvious that at times a situation may arise when the heat that is engendered is inevitable. I am very well aware that in the course of any particular set of political discussions people say things they regret afterwards. I am very well aware it is impossible for us to restrain ourselves when we see abuses being created in regard to our national position. All that I accept and appreciate but I do hope that the Minister, if he does establish a bureau of this kind, whether we approve of it or not, will bear that in mind. It will be no harm for us all to review our whole attitude towards the solution of the Partition problem in relation to our propaganda abroad. I might add that the same would go for the people of Northern Ireland. The people of Northern Ireland and the Government of Northern Ireland, from their own point of view and in their own regard, could do exactly the same thing with advantage to both countries.

Mr. MacBride

I am sorry that such a large portion of the debate was taken up, not in discussing this Bill on its merits, but in attacking me principally. It is unfortunate that the members of the Opposition do not realise the amount of damage they do to themselves by failing to approach various problems, various questions that come before the House, on their merits. They could serve a much more useful function; their views would count for far more. It is also unfortunate that a greater measure of agreement does not exist on the Opposition Benches as to the line they are going to take on a particular measure.

Deputy Childers, who has just sat down, suggested that I should exercise a censorship on the news that was to be issued in future, that I should even censor statements made by the Head of the State. I would suggest to Deputy Childers to use his influence on people like Deputy Corry of his Party, like young Deputy Blaney of his Party, who go round stunting and, just in order to raise a little bit of trouble, suggest that the only way to solve Partition is to get guns out now.

Deputy Lemass, of course, adopted his usual bellicose and, if I may say so, rather dishonest method of argument. He raised a tremendous fuss and pother regarding the drafting of the Bill because it was a £100 company. The Bill is a replica of many of the Bills that the Deputy himself had drafted. Practically all the provisions were copied by the Parliamentary draftsman from some of Deputy Lemass's own Bills when he was on this side of the House.

Mr. Lemass

Name one.

Mr. MacBride

The different provisions were taken from different Bills. The whole work was done by officials of my Department, in conjunction with the Parliamentary draftsman and the officers of the Deputy's ex-Department. As to the capital, he told us what a terrible thing it was to have a £100 company.

Mr. Lemass

I did not say that. It was a Deputy behind the Minister who said that.

Mr. MacBride

I never said we would have a £100 company. In 1934 the Turf Development Board, Limited, was formed with a nominal capital of five £1 shares. In 1941 the Slieveardagh Coal Mining Company was formed with a share capital of 100 £1 shares. In 1941 the Mineral Development Company was formed with a share capital of 100 £1 shares.

Mr. MacEntee

May I draw the Minister's attention——

An Ceann Comhairle

Not if the Minister does not give way.

Mr. MacEntee

——to a significant difference?

An Ceann Comhairle

Not if the Minister does not give way.

Mr. MacEntee

I shall deal with it another time.

Mr. MacBride

I am surprised that the Deputy has been silent so long.

Mr. MacEntee

There was a provision for the tabling of accounts in connection with these companies which does not appear here.

Mr. MacBride

Deputy Lemass and Deputy de Valera both gave tremendous praise to the Swedish bulletin which is issued. I agree entirely with that. I think there are very few of these publications so well and so interestingly prepared as the Swedish bulletin. But they held up Sweden as being an example of a country which was doing what it should without a news agency. In fact, Sweden has two news agencies of this type. It has one for America by itself which is called the Swedish-American News Agency. I have the particulars here if the Deputy would like to see them. It has also another news agency and, in addition to that, the Swedish Legation circulates these extremely interesting bulletins which are a credit to Sweden.

A lot of the remarks of Deputies on the other side of the House were devoted to suggesting that there was some ulterior reason for including in the terms of reference of the company to be formed power to distribute news inside and outside the State. In some extraordinary fashion, Deputy Moran went to the extent of suggesting that that would vest in me the power of censorship, although a few minutes later Deputy Childers asked me to exercise the power of censorship. There is no power of censorship in this Bill and I do not want any power of censorship. I think it is really unworthy of Deputy Moran to make a suggestion of that nature which he must know is unfounded. It does not do him any credit.

Provision was made in the Bill for the formation of a company. Unless the matter was to be left at large, the terms of reference of that company had to be set out. Once they were set out, the company was limited by those terms of reference. Provisions were included in the Bill to enable the company to collect and disseminate news both inside the State, because the operative words are:—

"the collection, dissemination, distribution and publication of news and intelligence inside and outside the State."

Unless the company were empowered to collect and disseminate news inside this State they could not do it. Obviously, the company has to collect news if it is to send out news. As I explained in the course of an interjection, it is my hope that this news agency will be of assistance to our own newspapers and to our own newspapermen here. It will make, I hope, its news service available to the newspaper correspondents who are here representing the news agencies and newspapers of other countries.

Mr. Lemass

Free of charge?

Mr. MacBride

That is a matter to be settled. As I indicated at the beginning, there can be no question of this news agency being a paying proposition, certainly for a number of years to come. Various suggestions were made by Deputy Cowan and by some Deputies on the Opposition Benches to try and suggest to journalists and to newspapermen here that the creation of this news agency will in some way interfere with their livelihood. Of course, I take it that the journalists and newspapermen here are sufficiently familiar with that type of insinuation to know its purpose. It was intended to try and secure a little bit of publicity——

Captain Cowan

The Minister is an adept at that.

Mr. MacBride

——for the Deputy who holds the honour of being the only Deputy in this House who opposed economic co-operation in Europe—the Marshall Plan.

Captain Cowan

I was never photographed with Mrs. Attlee's dog, anyhow.

Mr. MacBride

Well, well, is that all the fault the Deputy can find with me?

Mr. Hickey

He is getting more childish every day.

Mr. MacBride

The same goes for the stunts indulged in as to the expenditure on the news agency. It seems to me that the expenditure visualised on this news agency will be money far better spent than the millions it was proposed to lose on transatlantic air flights for prestige purposes——

Mr. MacEntee

Will it be in order to discuss this on the Fifth Stage of the Bill?

Mr. MacBride

——or in giving large subventions to Córas Iompair Éireann so that it, in turn, might pay certain directors' fees.

An Ceann Comhairle

Surely that is not in order.

Mr. MacEntee

On a point of order, the Minister has been comparing the relative advantages of spending mythical millions on Constellations with the advantages of the news agency which he is proposing to establish. Will it be in order to discuss that on the Fifth Stage of the Bill, seeing that we have no opportunity of dealing with it now?

An Ceann Comhairle

On the Fifth Stage, Deputies will be in order in discussing what is in the Bill.

Mr. MacBride

So far as I am concerned, if Deputies on the Fifth Stage of the Bill wish to discuss Córas Iompair Éireann, Constellation aeroplanes or the purchase of Argentine wheat, I will be quite prepared to meet them.

Mr. Lemass

And the economies on mineral development and the development of athletics through which you got the £25,000 for this purpose.

Mr. MacEntee

£25,000 for Clann na Poblachta.

Mr. MacBride

That is untrue.

An Ceann Comhairle

It will not be in order to discuss that on the Fifth Stage of the Bill nor is it in order to discuss it now.

Mr. MacBride

A good deal of criticism was levelled on the basis that this work could have been performed by the short-wave station. Of course, that is quite ridiculous. I do not think it could have been advanced seriously by any Deputy who used that argument. I put this simple test to any Deputy: how often does any member of this House himself, or any member of his family, ever listen to a news bulletin emanating, say, from an American or an Australian wireless station?

Mr. Lemass

As often as they read the circulars which come to them through the post.

Mr. MacBride

There is no purpose in reading circulars. The purpose of the news agency is to supply news concerning Ireland to the Press of the world. There is one function that I visualise will arise in connection with the news agency and the radio, and that is that, to a large extent, the news which will be suitable to the news agency will also be the same type of news bulletin that will be published through the short-wave station.

A great deal of the suggestions of one kind or another that came from the other side of the House with the exception of Deputy Little's and, possibly Deputy Childers's, were not, I think, intended to be of a constructive nature. I have, personally, acquired a good deal of knowledge in relation to this project of a news agency, not merely since I became a member of the Government but for a great many years back. I myself worked both here and in other countries for news agencies, and I acquired a good deal of knowledge in the course of my work. The first essential, before we can have anything published in a paper, is to make the news available to it. For one reason or another that cannot be done through consular or diplomatic offices. For instance, they cannot engage in ordinary trading transactions. As I indicated in the course of the debate, we already issue weekly and bi-weekly bulletins through some of our main offices. I consider that the news agency, when in operation, should aim at issuing approximately anything from 500 to 1,000 words a day, reckoned with a view to the particular market where it is directed. The news items should be selected to be of interest in the particular part of the world to which they are being sent.

I visualise that the news agency will be organised somewhat on the following lines: there will be a small office here whose function it will be to select and rewrite items of news that are likely to be published, say, in America. Those particular items will then be transmitted to a small distributing office in the United States. The function of that distributing office will then be to transmit the news so received to the newspaper desks and news agencies in the neighbourhood. Likewise, in London I visualise a small receiving and transmitting office. According as news is received from here, from the small central office here, news, say, for Australia or New Zealand, it will be transmitted to the London offices of the Australian and New Zealand Press. The same will apply to India, the British newspapers, the Canadian newspapers, and so on.

I do not see any insuperable difficulties, and I speak with a certain practical experience of these matters. I am quite prepared to be ready to change as we go along. Many changes may be found necessary before this news agency works ideally from our point of view.

I am sorry Deputy de Valera is not here. I am sure if he were here he would remember many of the difficulties he had at various times in relation to the publication of false and misleading reports in the Press abroad concerning Ireland. Many times Deputy de Valera himself was foully slandered in the Press abroad, usually in reports emanating from London. During the war there was, and even yet there is, in many parts of the United States and in many parts of the world, a belief that the Japanese here had a legation consisting of several hundreds; that the German legation here was a centre for spying, with a huge staff and wireless stations. Despite every effort that was made by Deputy de Valera and by our Legation in the United States, and despite letters written by the Minister in the United States to newspapers, no denial of these stories was ever published. Likewise, I have seen reports published in foreign papers, possibly based on some speeches made by Deputy MacEntee, suggesting that this Government was a Communist Government. We can laugh at this here. It is a joke to us here. It is not a joke to somebody reading it in Canada or in some portion of the world where they know little or nothing about Irish Parliaments.

Mr. MacEntee

It is no joke to Deputy Larkin, either.

Mr. M.J. O'Higgins

It was no joke to Deputy MacEntee—it was deliberate.

Mr. MacBride

Unfortunately, the people of the world do not know Deputy MacEntee as well as we know him. Another instance of the same kind of thing, if instance be needed, can be got from the last Six-County elections in Belfast. Deputies will remember that a number of meetings held by Labour candidates were broken up by English Communists and in some cases razor blades and other things of that description were hurled at speakers. Believe it or not, it was represented throughout the Press of the world for one day that these were Unionist meetings broken up by wild Nationalists. Those reports circulated in the Press of the world. We caught up with them and we tried to get them to deny it. We succeeded in some instances, but once a lie is published the damage is done, and people usually do not see the contradiction that appears afterwards. Those are concrete instances of the kind of thing with which we have to deal.

Now, as to the type of news, I agree entirely with every Deputy who said that it should be non-political from the point of view of our own internal Party politics. I agree entirely, and, in so far as I can exercise any influence on the development of this news agency, I will exercise it so as to ensure that it will represent the point of view of Ireland, irrespective of Party politics.

There is one thing I want to make clear in that connection and, when I am making it clear, I do not want any Deputies on the opposite benches to take it that I am detracting from the statements I have just made. I want to make it quite clear that it is inevitable that in any publicity, inside or outside the country, statements made by the Taoiseach or by myself, as Minister for External Affairs, are bound to get more publicity than other statements, and statements made by the Government, representing Government policy on various questions, be it Partition or external relations generally, are bound to get pre-eminence of place in the matter of news distribution. That happened with the last Government and it continues to happen with this Government and it is a matter which cannot be escaped.

Deputy de Valera, in effect, said that he agreed with the proposal, but that he thought it was unworkable. He said he certainly agreed that there should not be any distribution of what I termed "hot news". I believe I should explain in a little more detail the type of news I visualise as emanating from the news agency. I visualise sending out the kind of news and information that is not normally covered by existing news agencies. We have here, for instance, fairly frequently, especially in recent years, cultural congresses of one kind or another and scientific congresses of one kind or another. All these things have a certain news value. We have passing through the country vast numbers of people of political and cultural importance all over the world. We are not exploiting these. Photographs of Ireland are seldom published in papers abroad. Take up any American newspaper, running into 48 or 60 pages. Go through it and you will find in that paper photographs of certain European countries appearing regularly therein, purely and simply because they are supplied by the news agencies in these countries. Switzerland is an outstanding example of that. In any big American newspaper on any day you will see at least one photograph of Switzerland officially supplied by Switzerland. These are not photographs of news events. These are usually photographs of scenery, or something like that. A paper that publishes 50 pages every day, running into 20 editions per day, takes a lot of filling.

Apart from Deputy de Valera saying that he did not think this was workable, he agreed with the idea generally. I think I indicated to the House in my opening speech that on a number of occasions in the past I had discussions with the last Government and I put forward a suggestion to that Government in relation to the setting up of such a news agency both prior to the war and after the war. I always felt that Deputy de Valera and the last Government were in complete agreement with the idea of forming such a news agency for the purpose of disseminating Irish news abroad. The last letter I have in relation to the matter is dated 30th November, 1945. That letter says:—

"In the present state of politics it is obvious that, no matter how right the intentions of the Government are, there will be those who will denounce everything they do. The help given to any Irish news agency would be so misrepresented publicly as to kill all hope of the agency ever succeeding."

That was the view of the last Government in November, 1945.

Mr. de Valera

Would the Minister be good enough to read the entire letter? I forget the context.

Mr. MacBride

The whole letter, certainly:—

" Dear Sean,

I agree with most of your letter. The fundamental difficulty is this: the expenditure of public moneys must come before the Dáil. In the present state of politics it is obvious that, no matter how right the intentions of the Government are, there will be those who will denounce everything they do. The help given to any Irish agency would be so misrepresented publicly as to kill all hope of the agency ever succeding. It is for that reason that another course must be taken. The agencies abroad to which you refer were helped either without public debate or at the time when the state of politics in the particular countries left the Government free to do a good, national act without it being made into a crime. If you think of any real way around this difficulty be sure it will have attention."

Captain Cowan

Who signed that?

Mr. MacBride

Frank Gallagher, who was deputed by the then Taoiseach to work on the matter with me and examine into it. Are we then at a time when the state of politics does not leave us free "to do a good, national act without it being made into a crime"? Is not that what has been happening here the whole afternoon? I have been accused——

Captain Cowan

Would the Minister say what Mr. Frank Gallagher was at that time?

Mr. MacBride

Director of the Government Information Bureau. I have been accused here by Deputy Moran of being weak in presenting this Bill to the House. I thought that I was dealing with reasonable men, with men who would realise that a good, national act should not be treated as a crime. References have been made by Deputy Lemass and other Deputies on the Opposition Benches to stunting, to fake, to codology. I am not prepared to accept responsibility as Minister for External Affairs before this House and to "stunt" about Partition without doing anything about it.

Mr. MacEntee

What about bringing the Ulster members down? Was that a stunt?

Mr. MacBride

No. It is not a stunt.

Mr. MacEntee

Why are they not here then?

Mr. Fitzpatrick

We have you here and that will do for the time being.

Mr. MacBride

The kernel of the matter is—are we going to stick to "stunting" and "talking" about Partition without making it possible for the world to have the true facts about it? I want the news agency for that purpose.

Question put: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The Dáil divided: Tá, 74; Níl, 64.

Tá

• Beirne, John.
• Belton, John.
• Blowick Joseph.
• Browne, Noel C.
• Browne, Patrick
• Commons, Bernard.
• Connolly, Roderick J.
• Corish, Brendan.
• Cosgrave, Liam.
• Costello, John A.
• Crotty, Patrick J.
• Davin, William.
• Desmond, Daniel.
• Dillon, James M.
• Dockrell, Maurice E.
• Donnellan, Michael.
• Doyle, Peadar S.
• Dunne, Seán.
• Everett, James.
• Fagan, Charles.
• Finucane, Patrick.
• Fitzpatrick, Michael.
• Flanagan, Oliver J.
• Flynn, John.
• Giles, Patrick.
• Halliden, Patrick J.
• Hickey, James.
• Hogan, Patrick.
• Hughes, Joseph.
• Keane, Seán.
• Keyes, Michael.
• Kinane, Patrick.
• Kyne, Thomas A.
• Larkin, James.
• Lehane, Con.
• Lehane, Patrick D.
• McAuliffe, Patrick.
• Byrne, Alfred.
• Byrne, Alfred Patrick.
• Coburn, James.
• Cogan, Patrick.
• Collins, Seán.
• MacBride, Seán.
• MacEoin, Seán.
• McFadden, Michael Og.
• McGilligan, Patrick.
• McMenamin, Daniel.
• McQuillan, John.
• Madden, David J.
• Maguire, Ben.
• Mongan, Joseph W.
• Morrissey, Daniel.
• Mulcahy, Richard.
• Murphy, William J.
• Norton, William.
• O'Gorman, Patrick J.
• O'Higgins, Michael J.
• O'Higgins, Thomas F.
• O'Higgins, Thomas F.(Jun.)
• O'Leary, John.
• O'Reilly, Patrick.
• O'Sullivan, Martin.
• Palmer, Patrick W.
• Pattison, James P.
• Redmond, Bridget M.
• Reidy, James.
• Reynolds, Mary.
• Roddy, Joseph.
• Rooney, Eamonn.
• Sheehan, Michael.
• Spring, Daniel.
• Sweetman, Gerard.
• Timoney, John J.
• Tully, John.

Níl

• Aiken, Frank.
• Allen, Denis.
• Bartley, Gerald.
• Beegan, Patrick.
• Blaney, Neal T.
• Boland, Gerald.
• Bourke, Dan.
• Brady, Brian.
• Breathnach, Cormac.
• Breen, Daniel.
• Brennan, Thomas.
• Breslin, Cormac.
• Briscoe, Robert.
• Buckley, Seán.
• Burke, Patrick.
• Butler, Bernard.
• Carter, Thomas.
• Childers, Erskine H.
• Colley, Harry.
• Collins, James J.
• Corry, Martin J.
• Cowan, Peadar.
• Crowley, Honor Mary.
• Davern, Michael J.
• Derrig, Thomas.
• De Valera, Eamon.
• De Valera, Vivion.
• Flynn, Stephen.
• Friel, John.
• Gilbride, Eugene.
• Gorry, Patrick J.
• Harris, Thomas.
• Hilliard, Michael.
• Kennedy, Michael J.
• Killilea, Mark.
• Kilroy, James.
• Kissane, Eamon.
• Lahiffe, Robert.
• Lemass, Seán F.
• Little, Patrick J.
• Lydon, Michael F.
• Lynch, John.
• McCann, John.
• McEllistrim, Thomas.
• MacEntee, Seán.
• McGrath, Patrick.
• Maguire, Patrick J.
• Moran, Michael.
• Moylan, Seán.
• O Briain, Donnchadh.
• O'Grady, Seán.
• O'Reilly, Matthew.
• Ormonde, John.
• O'Rourke, Daniel.
• Rice, Bridget M.
• Ruttledge, Patrick J.
• Ryan, James.
• Ryan, Mary B.
• Ryan, Robert.
• Sheridan, Michael.
• Smith, Patrick.
• Traynor, Oscar.
• Walsh, Richard.
• Walsh, Thomas.

Tellers:— Tá: Deputies P.S. Doyle and Kyne; Níl: Deputies Kissane and Kennedy.

Question declared carried.

Mr. MacBride

Is there any opposition to taking the Committee Stage to-night or to-morrow?

Mr. Lemass

I was going to suggest that, as Government Whips have been talking about the possibility of the adjournment this week or next, it should be left over until the autumn session. The Committee Stage is likely to be protracted.

Mr. MacBride

The suggestion to leave this Bill over to the autumn session is impossible. The Government consider it to be urgent.

Captain Cowan

I propose to put down a number of amendments.

Mr. de Valera

I suggest that the Minister should give a fortnight, at any rate, to it. As far as I am concerned, when looking through the Bill, I could not make head or tail of it.

Mr. MacBride

The Bill is a replica of about ten other similar Bills which have been through the House. It is only a question of policy.

Mr. de Valera

It is not a practical proposition, that is the trouble.

Committee Stage ordered for Tuesday, 19th July, 1949.

Mr. MacEntee

We are supposed to get time to put down amendments but, of course, with a totalitarian Government we do not worry about that.