Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 2 Nov 1949

Vol. 118 No. 3

Private Deputies' Business. - Flooding of North Kerry Holdings—Motion.

Mr. Kissane

I move:—

That, having regard to the widespread damage caused to holdings adjoining the rivers Feale and Gale in North Kerry, due to breaches in the embankments of those rivers, caused by recent floods, which have rendered large tracts of land practically useless, Dáil Éireann is of opinion that the Government should regard this matter as one of urgent public importance and take appropriate action without delay.

It is now about 20 months since this motion first appeared on the Private Deputy's Business sheet. It deals with a problem that affects my constituency very much, the problem of flooding as a result of breaches in river embankments, especially in the case of the two rivers mentioned. I put down the motion for the purpose of ascertaining from the Government what their policy is, if any, towards this very serious problems. I should point out to the House that over a number of years a considerable amount of damage has been caused by floods in that part of the country, because of these breaches in the river embankments. Much damage has been occasioned to people's property and unfortunately in places along these rivers the breaches are so great as to make it impossible for the riparian owners to repair them. They cannot be repaired, in my opinion, without some State assistance.

Of course I know very well that what is true of these rivers is true also of other rivers in the country. Therefore it is a national problem that will have to be tackled by the Government. The sooner it is tackled, the less the expenditure will be in carrying out the necessary repairs. I have known myself of cases in other parts of the country where breaches occurred in river embankments and if these breaches had been attended to in time, a couple of hundred pounds would have been sufficient to carry out the necessary repairs but because they were not tackled in time, it transpired afterwards that it cost as many thousand pounds to carry out the required repairs.

There are several breaches along the rivers Feale and Gale in North Kerry. One is a tributary of the other. I am trying to ascertain from the Minister or the Parliamentary Secretary if they have studied this problem in all its aspects. I know very well that sometimes when applications is made to the Land Commission for financial help to carry out such repairs the answer almost invariably is that they have no responsibility whatsoever in the matter. They also point to the fact that there is a trust fund from which financial assistance can be got for the carrying out of this work.

As regards the non-responsibility of the Land Commission, in my opinion that is a false position for the Land Commission to take up, because it should be the concern of the Land Commission to preserve the land in relation to which they expect to collect land annuities year after year. I submit that if a person's land is sometimes covered with water for a good portion of the year and consequently rendered partially useless, it is wrong to expect the sufferers to keep on paying their annuities to the Land Commission if the Land Commission does not come to their rescue in some way. Therefore, I hold that it should be the responsibility of the Land Commission to repair these embankments and, if they were once repaired, I think it would be quite an easy matter for the land owners to maintain them afterwards.

As to the trust fund that they refer to when application is made to them for financial assistance, it does not amount to much. The annual interest from it usually does not exceed a couple of hundred pounds. Therefore it is useless and futile to refer to this trust fund in connection with the repair of river embankments.

As to the extent of the damage which takes place as a result of the flooding of these rivers, I can recall more than one occasion when people living along these rivers had to leave their homes because of the intense flooding. The last time that flooding occurred along the River Feale the case was so serious that people had to be taken from their homes and provided with accommodation in the district hospital. I am trying to point out to the House the seriousness of this whole problem. I do not know how many other rural Deputies have a similar problem in their constituency. If they have, I am sure they will have something to say on this motion. At any rate, I have opened the debate in connection with these two rivers in North Kerry and I hope that as a result the whole problem of repairing river embankments will be tackled by the responsible Minister. Recently we had another motion of this nature, but the terms of that motion were confined to sea embankments. No doubt that problem is also a very important one, especially in parts of County Kerry. But if that problem is important, this problem of repairing the river embankments is just as important.

I should like to know from the Parliamentary Secretary what will be the attitude of the present Government in relation to this problem. I must admit that certain repairs have been carried out by the Land Commission over a number of years, but they did the work rather grudgingly because they said they did not accept responsibility for it. The amount of work they have carried out on these river embankments, however, has not been at all sufficient. Therefore I ask the House to give reconsideration to this matter, not alone from the point of view of its local aspect but also from the general national point of view. The land of the country, as I said, is very precious. In this particular case it happens that the land is good, while in many other parts of Kerry the land is bad. Here, where you have the good land adjoining these rivers, it is a pity to see people's property destroyed by flooding from these rivers as a result of the breaches which have occurred in the embankments. I therefore commend the motion to the House.

Mr. McEllistrim

I second the motion and join with Deputy Kissane in appealing to the Government to carry out a drainage scheme for the Rivers Feale and Gale. I am aware that the landowners whose land adjoins these rivers have suffered severely through recent flooding. Therefore I appeal to the Government to treat this matter as urgent and see that a drainage scheme is carried out in that district in the very near future.

Mr. Crotty

This motion has been on the Order Paper for 20 months and therefore this trouble has not arisen during the present Government's term of office. My constituency is also affected by flooding, one portion of it very much so. There are breaches in the embankments on the River Suir and quite an amount of good land has been subject to flooding for years. As Deputy Kissane pointed out, each year the flooding is spreading. The county council are losing a large amount of rates every year as they have had to remit rates on these flooded lands, which are soured and are no use for grazing.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Has this any reference to the Rivers Feale and Gale?

Mr. Crotty

It has reference to embankments in general.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The discussion must be confined to the rivers Feale and Gale.

Mr. Corry

I want to point out that this is definitely a Land Commission responsibility. When the Land Commission step in, as they did under the 1923 Act, and compel tenants to purchase their land and fix the price, the responsibility is on the Land Commission to see that out of that purchase price sufficient money is held over to maintain these embankments. The Land Commission are responsible to the State for seeing that the money that was advanced was not advanced in vain, and that there is a stake in the land for which the money was advanced.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Corry should read the motion which asks that the Government should regard this matter as one of urgent public importance. There is no Department particularised.

Mr. Corry

This Government will have to accept the responsibility of their predecessors. It is a good job that a Fine Gael Government is now accepting responsibility for what Fine Gael did before. The 1923 Land Act was passed by the Government and the House of that time. Therefore, I submit that this Government will have to accept responsibility for this.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy must relate his remarks to the embankments of the Feale and Gale rivers.

Mr. Corry

I am dealing with the trust fund.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is dealing in general terms with the provisions of the land Acts and I cannot allow him to proceed on that line.

Mr. Corry

My remarks are applicable to these two rivers.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

On that principle the Deputy could discuss every river in the State. I cannot allow him to proceed unless he relates his remarks definitely to the Feale and the Gale.

Mr. Corry

The lands adjoining these rivers were purchased under the 1923 Land Act, and as such the Land Commission have their responsibility.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I warned the Deputy before that no Department was particularised, and the Deputy cannot get away with that by a side wind. I am cautioning him now.

Mr. Corry

The Government have a responsibility to see, in respect of the money advanced by its predecessors, that the land from which that money is to be collected is not going to be allowed to deteriorate to such an extent that the tenants of it will no longer be able to pay their annuities. If that were to occur the State would be at a loss. If the Government, in this case, did not withhold sufficient money to build those embankments and keep them in proper order, then I submit the Government is responsible, and will have to make good whatever loss occurs.

I suggest that what is proposed in the motion could be covered under the Local Authorities (Works) Act. Under that Act the local authority—the Kerry County Council in this case—has the power to prepare a scheme for any land that has deteriorated by flooding. May I quote for the House subsections (3) and (4) of Section 2 of that Act:

(3) Where a local authority to whom this section applies are of opinion that—

(a) any land in their functional area, not being land owned by them, or

(b) any permanent construction in their functional area, not being a permanent construction which was constructed by them or which they are required by law to maintain,

has sustained or is likely to sustain damage from flooding, landslide, subsidence or other similar occurrence and that it is in the public interest to afford relief or protection from the damage, the local authority may execute such works as they consider reasonable for the purpose of affording such relief or protection.

(4) The works referred to in subsections (2) and (3) of this section shall include, in particular—

(a) the making of drains,

(b) the removal of substances or things causing obstructions in watercourses,

(c) the widening or deepening of watercourses,

(d) the making or repairing of walls or embankments.

I want to draw the attention of Deputy Kissane and of the House to the fact that the work proposed here could be done by the county council and that if they do it they are entitled to receive under this Act 100 per cent. grant from the Government.

Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance (Mr. Donnellan)

That was a great Act.

Mr. Corry

You do not realise yet all that you are being caught for. We realised it in Cork and we caught you for a fair bit. I hope that others will catch you in the same way. That is the position that I find under the Local Authorities (Works) Act. I suggest again that this matter could easily be covered under that Act if proposals were put in by the Kerry County Council. I suggest that Deputy Kissane and Deputy McEllistrim should get the county council to put in proposals in connection with these embankments. I did so in my constituency and got a job done there. Even though these rivers have done no damage to a road or to other portions of county council property, this particular work could, in my opinion, be done under the Local Authorities (Works) Act if proposals were put forward by the county council.

In my opinion, any land that has deteriorated by flooding can be done under this Act because it is in the public interest to do so. It is in the public interest to see that land is kept in such a condition that the rates can be paid out of it. The House is aware that if land is rendered useless by flooding an occupier can get out of paying rates on it. Therefore, I think the county council would be entitled to go in and carry out repairs on a stream or a river that was causing damage to land. In this particular case they could build embankments for the purpose of protecting the adjoining land. I make that suggestion to my two colleagues.

Mr. Spring

We in Kerry can look after our own affairs very well and we are very anxious that Deputy Corry would stop poaching. I am quite sure he is not conversant with our problems in Kerry, particularly as regards drainage. We all know that as regards repairs to embankments, such as are mentioned in the motion, they should not be tackled in 1949 or 1950; they should have been tackled years ago. The people of my constituency who are affected severely by the flooding caused through breaches in these embankments have not been so affected for only the past 12 months; they have been affected since I was a very small boy, around 30 years ago. I believe I am the only Deputy in this House who has voiced the grievances of those people as regards flooding in the various districts.

The people of North Kerry have been affected by the flooding of the Feale and Gale, but they are also very concerned about the complete drainage of the Brick and Cashen rivers. We all know about the Arterial Drainage Act that was passed in 1945. Deputy Kissane knows thoroughly well that before that law was passed he moved into the North Kerry constituency and addressed a big Fianna Fáil gathering and he told the people there that the passing of that Act would bring great benefits on them and great blessings. These people are still waiting for those blessings and benefits and they want these drainage schemes carried out.

Repairs of breaches in embankments will bring little relief to the landowners of North Kerry. They want the big problem tackled. They want the Board of Works to get down to realities and to tackle the big drainage scheme for which they have been waiting so many years. It is all right to come in here 16 or 17 years after being a member of a Government and then try to press the present Government, telling them what they should do. The farmers of my constituency, especially in North Kerry, have received so many promises over the last 16 years that they are now of the one opinion; they will not believe that the Brick and Cashen will ever be drained until they see the machines starting to work there.

I believe a motion of this kind about repairing breaches in the embankments will do very little to bring relief, so far as Kerry is concerned. I would ask Deputy Corry to stay in Cork. We all know that between Cork and Waterford they have enough controversy as regards the building of a bridge there. Deputy Corry should look after his own constituency. We in Kerry are fairly well able to look after our own districts. If Deputy Corry was really conversant with the Brick and Cashen and the Feale and the Gale, he would not make such statements as he made to-night. He does not know the first thing about it.

I will make one appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary and I make it on behalf of the people in the North Kerry portion of my constituency. They are not waiting so very anxiously for what is in this motion but they are waiting for the day when he will come down there and put the machinery in motion to drain the Brick and Cashen. When he does that I can say that he will get a big clap on the back from the people of North Kerry.

Mr. Donnellan

It was very laughable listening to Deputy Corry speaking about the Local Authorities (Works) Act, 1949. The voices of Fianna Fáil Deputies in opposition to that Bill when it was going through the House are still ringing in our ears. The Lord have mercy on the late Minister, Tadhg Murphy, who brought it in here. We all know the terrible abuse he got. We were listening to that abuse for many days because he brought in that very valuable Act that Deputy Corry now refers to as a great instrument and a great necessity. He should throw his mind back a little and recall the action of his Party in holding us up for quite a long period endeavouring to prevent that Act going through.

Mr. Corry

That statement is not correct.

Mr. Donnellan

All you have to do is to read the debates. I remember the statements that were made—it would only mean taking tin cans and the wheels of old bicycles out of the drains and that was the whole object of the Bill. We were told it was a communist measure and we were taking control out of the hands of the people.

Mr. P.J. Burke

The constructive criticism of Fianna Fáil made a good measure out of it.

Mr. Donnellan

Every time I look at Deputy Burke I get sad; he reminds me of a funeral.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Let us get back to the Feale and Gale.

Mr. Donnellan

I have no doubt Deputy Kissane was very sincere in his remarks and he knows the great necessity for that measure. I hope that in the near future we will be able to look after the people in that area. The Local Authorities (Works) Act would not suit at all in this case—this is for Deputy Corry's information—for the simple reason that this would be too large a scheme for it to cope with. We have decided that there is only one way in which embankments can be repaired and that is under the Arterial Drainage Act, 1945. I fully agree with Deputy Spring that that alone is the only solution. We have no statutory responsibility for the repair or the maintenance of those embankments at the present time, but we intend in the near future to be in there. As a matter of fact, I expect in this coming year to have a sum of money in the Estimates for the starting of that very necessary work. I want to point out to the House that the Feale, Brick and Cashin rivers constitute a huge scheme. The catchment area extends from Kerry into Limerick and Cork. It comprises roughly 445 square miles. In the course of the engineering survey about 140 miles of watercourses and 80 miles of embankments were examined. Some 30,000 acres of land were valued.

I know quite well that Deputy Kissane, Deputy Spring and the other Kerry representatives, as well as the people living in that county, are saying—as they are saying in other counties: "Your engineers are there a very long time; the scheme is very slow." But one must appreciate that it is a huge undertaking. The outfall in the Feale area is one of our greatest headaches. We shall have to use sea dredgers in a large portion of that outfall. We realise that the embankments have broken down. We know that they will have to be rebuilt. We hope in the next year to start work there under the 1945 Arterial Drainage Act. Nearly all of the present embankments are too low. Many of them will have to be removed; many will have to be extended further back. In portion of the outfall of that river we shall have to cut a channel 100 yards wide and 10 feet deep.

Now it is no use spurring a willing horse. Deputies know the position in which we find ourselves in regard to drainage. We hope to start work in that area during the coming year. The embankments will naturally come under the scheme. To deal with the position in any other way, other than by the Arterial Drainage Act of 1945, would be nonsense, as Deputy Spring has pointed out. I am sure Deputy Kissane and the other Deputies interested in this matter realise that. When one is dealing with 80 miles of embankments any kind of patchwork would be a waste of time.

It was really unnecessary to bring in this motion. As far as the Government is concerned it is our job to push the work forward as quickly as we can. At one time it was my earnest desire to see three of these schemes going on at the same time. I looked forward to that. I believe we may be able to approach that in the coming year. I believe we shall succeed in having the three major catchment areas dealt with simultaneously. We are working on the Brosna. I want to see the scheme in Louth and on the Feale under way as soon as possible.

I can assure the House that the scheme has been prepared but it must be remembered that the sea comes up there, and that is causing us some difficulty. There are some little technical difficulties at the moment as regards the outfall. But those problems are having our earnest attention. We expect to overcome our troubles there. In the coming financial year I expect to have a sum of money which will enable us to drain the Brick, Cashin and Feale catchment areas and build the necessary embankments. In that way, we hope to obviate the necessity for the outcry that has taken place in the past. We realise that this work is vitally important to the people in Kerry, just as important as similar work is to the people in other counties where drainage is also necessary.

Mr. Kissane

The statement made by the Parliamentary Secretary is very satisfactory. If the bringing in of this motion has done nothing else, except extract that statement from the Parliamentary Secretary with regard to the drainage problem along these rivers, I think it has served a very useful purpose. I agree that the drainage of the Brick and Cashin rivers is of paramount importance. It has been referred to here several times in the past. At the same time we have to take into consideration the fact that, while the scheme for the Brick and Cashin is being prepared, certain embankments up along the Feale and Gale are being breached and the breaches are getting wider. It was because of that Deputy McEllistrim and I decided to put this motion down. A certain amount of work was carried out prior to this. Repairs were made a couple of years ago, but they were not sufficient. They were satisfactory as far as the particular locality they served was concerned. My chief object in putting down this motion was to direct the attention of the Minister for Lands to the urgent necessity for ensuring that these breaches would be tackled at some stage.

I agree with the Parliamentary Secretary, that the Brick and Cashin drainage scheme will be a very big undertaking. Work done on the rivers I have mentioned would bring relief to a number of farmers living alongside these rivers. It would save thousands of acres of good land. In view of the Parliamentary Secretary's statement and his willingness to keep this matter under observation and to pursue it during the coming financial year by making provision in the Estimates for it, I have no intention of pressing the motion further.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.