I have a good deal of sympathy with Deputies McQuillan and Commons in this particular matter. The Minister hoisted the flag. He had a cutlass in his hands. He had a knife between his teeth, but his teeth were chattering. He is a very timid revolutionary. He seems to be afraid now that there will be no success in the working of this particular section because he will be outbid by any farmer who has a few pounds. If the Minister were Deputy Commons, or if Deputy Commons's form could be exhibited in a ministerial capacity, we would have a far better idea where we are. If Deputy Commons did not suffer some change in taking office, he would at least be quite clear in regard to what he would purport to do and he would leave us in no doubt as to what he would purport to do.
In regard to the acquisition of land under Section 5, actually the Minister has given himself certain powers under Section 10. When he starts acquiring land under Section 5 for the relief of congestion and the rearrangement of holdings he will be able to nominate those who get the farms. He will be able to say what is the amount at which these farms will be sold. He starts to pretend that he has not taken these powers and now he tells us that he fears that he will not be able to acquire any land because there will be competition.
I see no success that will attend the operation of this section for this reason. Deputy Commons and Deputy McQuillan, according to what they say, did believe that the relief of congestion was so necessary and so urgent that they would, under the terms of the Bill, go out and get land at any cost. Even though to help them in his efforts to solve congestion the Minister has secured authority to pay the market value, yet he hedges here and says that market value is not market price. If the Minister is not prepared to pay market price and hedges in any way in regard to the difference between market value and market price, he certainly is not going to get any land. I wonder if Deputy Commons and Deputy McQuillan are themselves wondering if the Minister is quite serious, and if they do not see some shadow of the white flag being raised in regard to this particular Bill?
In the discussion on this Bill I have listened all the time with a good deal of interest to Deputy Collins. He has been surprisingly reasonable and has tried to make the Minister show reason but he has great difficulty in doing that. When he talks about his knowledge of land and the Land Commission from his second-hand experience, I begin to envy his father's happy home here in Dublin wherever it is, when, like the rest of the inspectors of the Land Commission, he goes home in the evening to discuss all the accumulated wisdom that is to be found in Merrion Street with his son. I do believe what I am told and do what I am told here in the Fianna Fáil Party and, if I have any shadow of hope, it is that my constituents will do the same. I do not think that Deputy Collins is quite as familiar with Land Commission procedure as he would lead us to believe, because when he is supporting the Minister in this particular section, I think that he has not grasped the difficulties that will be raised by the section.
Deputy McQuillan speaking on the section made a plea for codification. We discussed that particular feature of the Bill before and I am glad that Deputy McQuillan has again referred to the great need there is now for it. One particular item of information slipped from Deputy McQuillan. He talked about farmers' sons getting land. I want the Minister to be assured that we on this side of the House are not anxious to see farmers' sons getting land under the terms of this Bill. We are anxious to see land rearranged and congestion dealt with but not the giving of land to landless men because that is not going to bring about the cure of congestion. If that is in Deputy McQuillan's mind, as apparently it is, I think it is quite unwise.
I spoke before on this section and vehemently opposed it. I think it is an innovation that we cannot really afford and one that creates very definite and distasteful interference with ordinary land economics. I do realise that the powers in the Bill are highly desirable in regard to one particular difficulty that was raised for the Land Commission or rather not for the Land Commission but for certain Deputies from Mayo. That was in connection with the cottage farm at Ballyhaunis. This was a farm, I admit, which the Land Commission might reasonably have purchased, but if the Land Commission did not acquire or resume that particular farm it really could hardly be described as the fault of the Land Commission. The position in relation to the farm was that the people in the locality were inclined to let very well alone. They were able to rent the farm for their purposes in conacre. It was not until the owner suddenly decided to sell the land that they woke up to the necessity for the Land Commission to acquire it. The Land Commission could not, and I hope will not ever, interfere with the free sale of land. I think Deputy Commons did introduce an amendment here which might conceivably be the logical outcome of the acceptance of this section by the Dáil. Deputy Commons I feel, like Gunga Din, is a brother man to the Minister.
"(1) Wherever any holding or parcel of land is offered for sale by public auction or private treaty the Land Commission shall be empowered to prohibit such sale or any transfer of title until an examination of such land is carried out and a report made as to the suitability of such land for the creation of migrants' holdings or the rearrangement of rundale or intermixed plots."
That is the logical development of this section which the Minister wants the Dáil to accept. The section certainly introduces a new method of land acquisition and it may, if it works, simplify the work of the relief of congestion.
The Minister and the Land Commission will have to remember that they are not dealing with land; they are dealing with human nature, and with human nature in its acquisitive mood. This fact will, I fear, nullify all the powers that the Minister is getting throughout the whole Bill, and particularly in this section, if the Minister proposes to acquire farms under this section. Having listened to him when he was introducing the Bill, we discovered that what was in his mind was the purchase of farms as going concerns. Conceivably, in view of his needs, what he wants to purchase is the small or the moderate sized farm as a going concern. This type of farm is the most highly sought after farm in the country by farmers who have made a success on their own, men who have sons and who want to make provision for them, men who have by hard work and thrift gathered a little money together and want to invest it for the benefit of their families. These people wish to be no burden on the State. They are prepared to stand on their own feet and spend their own money. I think it is wrong that with all the powers the Land Commission have for land acquisition they should go into competition with farmers such as these who, to my mind, are the backbone of the country.
Before the auction takes place, it is somewhere in Section 10 (1)—all these sections are as long as an answer to a Dáil question by the Minister for External Affairs—that there is a determination of the highest offer to be made by the Land Commission in the case of a proposed purchase under Section 23 of this Act. Let us say a farm in Limerick is put up for sale, and maybe Deputy Madden would be interested and would write to the Minister. Anyhow, there would be some acquisitive genius in West Limerick who would notify the Minister that such farm was for sale, even if his own inspector was not sufficiently alert to discover what was in the auctioneers' bills on the walls. The Minister, having been informed, would send his inspector down to County Limerick to have a look at the farm. He would come back to Dublin and make a report on the farm to the Minister and to the Land Commission. Then the commissioners would go into a huddle and argue up, down and across—the four of them; we will not have a majority on either side and the Minister will decide finally. They will decide what the market value of the farm is.
Of course, the Minister will not be so dumb as to send down one of his known land inspectors or any fellow with too highly polished boots. He will possibly send some local fellow to make a bid for the land. All that might lead, not to success, but to failure, because in the County Limerick people are clannish and it might lead to a good deal of intrigue and dishonesty. The local fellow might find insufficient the price that the commissioners fixed long before even the order came down from Dublin, but whatever he does the market value of that farm will be the price the County Limerick man is prepared to pay for it. If it is around Abbeyfeale or in South Limerick, we will have acquisitive gentlemen coming over the Border from Kerry with a good deal of money made one way or the other and they will make the Land Commission put up the dibs. Let the Minister take his courage in his hands if he wants to relieve congestion and let him pay the market price.