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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 15 Jun 1950

Vol. 121 No. 13

Committee on Finance. - Vote 27—Agriculture.

I move:—

That a sum not exceeding £10,065,040 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending the 31st day of March, 1951, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Agriculture, including certain Services administered by that Office, and for payment of certain Subsidies and sundry Grants-in-Aid.

In reviewing the work of this Department for the last year, I think the golden rule applies that the best test of a policy is its results, and that the best arguments are facts. I have, therefore, for the convenience of Deputies, prepared a short White Paper which is available to all Deputies on the Lobby and which, I thought, might be of assistance to those who are interested in the Vote in mastering the rather wide range of topics which may properly arise in the course of this discussion.

In regard, however, to certain factual statistics, I am in a position to bring the House up to date a little more precisely since that White Paper was prepared. The deliveries of milk to creameries up to June 3rd from the 1st January, 1947, were 34,587,000 gallons; for the corresponding periods of 1948, 1949 and 1950 deliveries were 41,020,000 gallons, 54,246,000 gallons and 62,830,000 gallons respectively. The most recent figure for the production of butter is that for the fortnight ending on the 31st May. In 1947, from 1st January to 31st May, it was 85,065 cwts.; for the same periods in 1948, 1949 and 1950 it was 105,471 cwts., 149,048 cwts. and 180,887 cwts. respectively. I now come to the export of eggs to date for the same period. The latest figures I have relate to the 8th June, and I give them in statistics relating to 300 cases, each case containing three long hundreds of eggs. In 1947, the figure was 344,581; in 1948, 554,374; in 1949, 862,404, and in 1950, 811,256.

I think the White Paper contains the most recent figures that I am in a position to offer in regard to the exports of dead poultry. Then we come to an interesting figure in regard to the delivery of wheat to the mills. The House will remember that there was a substantial decline in the total acreage of wheat this year. But, despite that fact, the delivery of wheat to the mills up to the 29th April last amounted to 2,350,648 barrels, as compared with 2,514,088 barrels last year, off an acreage nearly 150,000 acres less this year than was laid down under wheat last year.

I think Deputies will find in the White Paper the last figure which I am in a position to give them authoritatively for the total exports of cattle is that relating to the month of April. Deputies are already informed of the total delivery of pigs to the factory.

That brings me now to the matter of employment on the land. I noticed, with emotion, that the Leader of the Opposition repaired recently to Louth and there spoke more in sorrow than in anger. He was grieved to observe that 50,000 male employees had left the land. I need hardly say that his kept newspaper was thrown into a state of deep distress by this. But neither the Leader of the Opposition nor the kept newspaper deemed it expedient to say that this remarkable exodus from the land had taken place during the last five years of his administration. It did not appear to trouble his conscience so gravely until he became Leader of the Opposition; and then it became a matter for anxious comment, wide publicity and implied rebuke to those now responsible. Lest there be any misunderstanding on this, it may be well to recapitulate the figures which were recently published in the Statistical Abstract for this year: males employed on the land in 1941, 555,601; in 1942, 541,181; in 1943, 536,383; in 1944, 526,147; in 1945, 521,980; in 1946, 519,634; in 1947, 507,568; in 1948, 499,542.

As the House knows, I have sought to crystallise the agricultural policy of this Government in the aphorism: "One more cow, one more sow, one more acre under the plough." That phrase was first used by my distinguished predecessor, the late Mr. Patrick Hogan. I think it makes pretty clear the view that we desire to see on the land of Ireland mixed farming so that those who own the land and live upon it will be, in so far as-is possible, protected from any transient economic wind that blows and that they shall be equipped, if one market should fail, in such manner as to enable them to avail of an alternative without undue dislocation of their livelihood. I have constantly maintained that that system of agriculture has the additional advantage that it employs more of our people on the land; that that system of agriculture tends to multiply on our land farmer proprietors; that that is what this Government wants to see — not quasi-landlords or 11-month tenants, but people owning and working their own land.

The kept newspaper has been concerned for the last couple of days to prove that, despite the steadily increasing production of milk, despite the increasing number of cows, despite the increasing number of heifers in calf, the dairy industry is tottering to ruin. But they prove too much because, in seeking to prove one thing, they inadvertently prove another. Just imagine the kept newspaper proving that tillage, to the exclusion of everything else, employs less men per 100 acres than any other system of farming known in Ireland. Picture the havoc that will be wrought at Burgh Quay tonight. Rows of dangling corpses will swing from the rafters when the full significance of the table printed on page 6 of that newspaper is appreciated. These tables show the employment per 100 acres in 1947—the last year of the blessed 15. Limerick: tillage acres, 12 per 100 acres of arable land; males employed, 3.8 per 100 acres. Meath, Westmeath, Kildare: 20 tillage acres per 100 acres; males employed, 3.3.

That does not finish the story. I thought it such an interesting one that we might follow it further afield. Let us leave the rolling lands of Meath and Westmeath, the bullock and the dog, which have this mysterious power of employment, and turn to Wexford and Laois. Here are counties where tillage is conducted with greater intensity than in any other counties in Ireland. Take Laois, where it is conducted almost to the exclusion of live stock. In Laois the total area under corn, root and green crops, flax and fruit is 82,972 acres. The total number of males employed is 12,015. The number of males employed per 1,000 acres cropped is 145. Turn now to despised Roscommon, Meath and Limerick, to the Golden Vale where the plough is said never to be seen. In these counties the number of male employed per 1,000 acres cropped is 294 in Roscommon, 160 in Meath and 328 in Limerick. In Wexford, where the total area under corn, root and green crops, flax and fruit is 157,076, the number of males employed per 1,000 acres cropped is 113. I wonder has the kept newspaper, by its revelations, taught Fianna Fáil what reason and argument could not teach them in the last 20 years, and that is that "one more cow, one more sow and one more acre under the plough" employs our people on the land in dignity, peace and prosperity and in numbers, and that wheat, peat and beet reduce the number of people employed upon our land as farmer proprietors, multiplies the number of wage-earners on the bog and leaves the arable land of Laois with 145 males to the 1,000 acres, while the despised live stock of Limerick and Roscommon manages to give a good livelihood to 328 males per 1,000 acres in Limerick and 294 per 1,000 acres in Roscommon. That sow, that cow, that other acre under the plough should be written on the heart of the Leader of the Opposition as Calais was written on the heart of Mary Tudor.

I promised the House that inasmuch as Deputy Lahiffe was good enough to give me the names of the farmers in Galway whose barns were burdened with great mountains of unsold barley, whose credit was strained and whose families were distressed by their inability to sell their humble stores, I would have inquiries made. I, in accordance with the Deputy's instructions, sent officers of my Department to each of these farmers with a respectful inquiry if I might be of service and whether I could assist them to dispose of this unmanageable burden of unsaleable agricultural produce. I went first to Mr. J.H. His barns were said to be bursting. He told us he had not any barley at all, but that he had sold 73 barrels some time ago for 42/-. I thanked him and went my way. Deeming Deputy Lahiffe's information to be an invitation to enter on the premises of Mr. T.K., I knocked at his door. He said he had three barrels, but that he would not take a penny less than 50/- for it because he wanted to feed it to his stock. I said "one more sow, one more cow, one more acre under the plough," and bid him the time of day. I went to Mr. S. S. He said he had not a barrel of barley in the barn for some time, that he had sold the last of it for 44/- some weeks ago. I wished him luck of it. I repaired to Mr. P. H. He said he had not a grain in the place, and had not had for some considerable time. I went to Mr. M. C. His larder was also bare. At this stage the officer of my Department fell ill, and I had to bring him home. I sent down another officer, but the poor man was again disappointed. As fast as I could get that other officer of my Department to the scene, he called on Mr. M. M. and Mr. O'B., both of whom received him with genial but ribald laughter, and said they had no barley at all, but that Mr. O'B. had had three barrels which he had sold six weeks ago for 42/-.

It was a pleasure to discharge this duty. I am grateful to Deputy Lahiffe for communicating his anxieties to me. I trust he feels that I have discharged my duty in making sure that the distresses, under which he believed his constituents to labour and in reference to which he thought it necessary to move the Adjournment of this House, were not as grave or as pressing as they were represented to him to be.

I assume the permission of the House not to dwell on the general topics that have been referred to in the White Paper I have submitted, though I need hardly reassure Deputies that if any particular facts therein set out appear inadequate I am at their disposal to elaborate them in any way I can on question. I have to announce to the House that, as a result of negotiations which have recently been proceeding in London with the British Ministry of Food, I am now in a position to indicate the price of eggs to the producer up to 31st January, 1952. The price of eggs to the producer will remain at 2/6 per dozen until 31st January, 1951. From the 1st February to the 31st August, the price of eggs to the producer will be 2/- per dozen and from the 1st September to the 31st January, 1952, the price will be 3/6 per dozen. It is fortunate that we are in a position to give this notice in due time so that those poultry people who desire to avail of the 3/6 for eggs between the 1st September, 1951, and the 31st January, 1952, may take measures in due time, as experienced poultry-keepers will know they can be taken, by judicious feeding to bring their fowl into laying in the month of September.

Deputies unfamiliar with the technique of this business may not fully realise that if you take certain well-known precautions in the matter of feeding, you can bring young fowl into laying in the autumn: they will then moult in December or January. If, on the other hand, these ordinary precautions in relation to feeding are not taken, fowl will not begin to lay until February, and will then continue to lay through their ordinary laying season. I hope that the majority of fowl-keepers in the country will spend the interval between now and this time 12 months consulting the poultry instructress and seeking her advice and guidance and help to inform themselves of the appropriate method to secure for themselves the maximum yield from their fowl between the 1st September and the 31st January — and the more eggs that are laid in that period of high prices the better it will be for the fowl-keeper and the better it will be for the country. I do not think the House will expect me, and, in any case, I would not be able, to interview every woman who keeps hens in the country and instruct and advise her how to bring about that desired result, but I think there are available now throughout the country as fine a body of women as we have ever had concerned to help and advise poultry-keepers in every county in the country wherever they are. If there are people who lack the technical information to get for themselves from their fowl the maximum return in the months of high prices, it will not be the fault of the poultry instructresses — it will be the fault of the women who have failed to call on their services. There is no hurry or rush, but no time should be lost by any farmer's wife who derives any substantial income from fowl in making contact with the poultry instructress and planning her programme next year so as to ensure that the bulk of her eggs will be available for sale when she can get 3/6 per dozen for them, instead of allowing the fowl on her farm to produce them at the period of surplus when they will sell for 2/- a dozen, 2d. an egg. It is not a bad price for eggs if you grow your own stuff on your own farm and there ought not be any fowl in this country eating anything except what is grown on the land of this country. Twopence an egg: I can remember when it was the top price for eggs, and it is not so long ago. Twopence an egg is the minimum now and 3½d. an egg for the five winter months. They can produce an income a man or a woman could rub along on if they make the best of it.

I would direct the attention of Deputies to one very encouraging feature of our agricultural set-up at the present time and that is the tendency for the numbers of our live stock to increase. One of my great anxieties when I first became responsible for this Department was the very low figure to which our live stock had fallen. In January, 1947, our total cattle were 3,703,000. In January, 1948, they had fallen to 3,531,000. There were a great many sages who told me that to increase the number of your cattle with any degree of rapidity was hopeless. It was a long, slow business and to hope for anything else was chasing rainbows. Sometimes there is a profit to be got from chasing rainbows because you sometimes catch them. I think we have caught this rainbow. From 3,531,000 in 1948, we have gone, in January, 1950, to 3,821,000, and I will take a flyer on this: wait for the June figure. I will be judged by it. I have not got it yet. I have a shrewd suspicion what it is going to be. It will knock a grunt out of Fianna Fáil. One of the most menacing characteristics of the cattle picture was that in January, 1947, our cattle under one year numbered 744,000. By January, 1948, that had fallen to 659,000. In January, 1950, the number of cattle under one year is 804,000. For the previous five years, any increase in cattle that we had was an increase in the veterans — the three-year-olds, the four-year-olds and the five-year-olds. These were increasing. The one year-olds and the two-year-olds were going down. I am glad to report to the House that the veterans have emigrated, lock, stock and barrel. The juveniles are multiplying.

Sheep show a gratifying increase, as do pigs and poultry. I have reminded the House that, although the acreage of wheat has fallen by 150,000 acres, the yield has declined by less than 40,000 tons.

Oats: In this I am beholden to Deputy Blaney and my distinguished colleague Deputy Davern. Their exertions and melodious, mellifluous accents carried such conviction to the public that, to use the classic phrase of Deputy Davern — or was it Deputy Blaney—oats were rotting in the hedges of Donegal. The acreage of oats was reduced, from 880,000 in 1948, to 686,000 in 1949. The yield fell from 792,000 in 1948 to 559,000 in 1949. That, I think, provided the text of my distinguished colleague from County Monaghan, who delivered a moving speech on the distressing cost of oatmeal. I hope Deputy Blaney and Deputy Davern listened closely to my distinguished colleague from Monaghan when she spoke so convincingly on the subject of the price of oatmeal. They wrought well but to the great cost of our people. I trust that when they next go to the palisades they will deal with something which is not so costly to the people of our country as the oat crop.

Barley: The acreage rose from 119,000 to 157,000 and the yield from 100,000 to 159,382 tons and, as there was no legislation to prohibit the brewers from paying more than 35/- a barrel, I am happy to report to the House that farmers who produced barley last year found it a very remunerative crop.

I direct the attention of Deputies to the item of agricultural exports in the White Paper which, I think, will stimulate and cheer them.

I may be able to give an account of the daily average consumption of milk in the cities of Dublin and Cork. These figures are at present being prepared and, if they are available, I hope to lay them before the House.

The fowl market in England will be released from control shortly. I cannot forecast, nor can anyone else, precisely what the result of that will be but this is certain, that we are entering a phase when competition in that and every other market will be much more intense. I want to assure the House that we have no reason whatever to be apprehensive on that score. We shall produce and offer for sale on its merits fowl of better quality and better finish than are offered anywhere else, and we will seek for it on the open market in Great Britain or elsewhere nothing less than the top price ruling on the day of sale.

Certain amendments have already been made in the regulations controlling the packing and grading of fowl in order to produce uniformity. We will gradually advance along the lines of ensuring that where prime fowl are exported from this country they shall be exported only when they are finished and in a proper condition, due precaution being taken to ensure that the benefit deriving from that improved procedure will accrue, not to the middleman, but to the producer who takes the care to learn how to do it and, having learned, the trouble faithfully to perform the necessary operations to put our fowl on the market in the best condition.

Turkeys, I think, will be a good trade. There again Deputies are as good a judge as I but I should imagine that, next Christmas, turkeys will be at least as remunerative as they have been heretofore, but we are on an open market and I am merely making my prognostication of what that market is likely to be. I have not the slightest doubt that we are putting on that market better turkeys than any other country in the world and I will not have the slightest hesitation in looking for, or the slightest difficulty, I believe, in getting, the top price obtaining on the London market for any Irish turkeys exported.

I want to say a word about cheese. Deputies will recall that Deputy Allen and other Deputies have spoken to me on more than one occasion about the difficulties relating to those who produce farmer's butter. I think Deputy Cogan interested himself in that matter on more than one occasion. I have explained repeatedly that I cannot sell farmers' butter, not because it is inferior, but because the public taste has changed. Heretofore, the British Ministry of Food were prepared to buy it, at a price, for confectionery manufacturers. This year they notified us that they would not buy it any more because they could not get confectionery manufacturers to take it because the confectionery manufacturers could buy vegetable oils cheaper. They said:—

"If you can get a buyer in Great Britain, we will gladly license it, but we will not buy it."

I cannot sell it.

In so far as that problem existed in South Galway, North Clare and Kerry, my first concern was to try to meet it by bringing these areas into the butter manufacturing business. In Clare, in South Galway, in Kerry and in West Cork, I am glad to inform the House that, as a result of the superb exertions of the Dairy Disposal Board and its staff, an organisation has been set up which I think faithfully provides for every farmer in these areas who wants to sell milk to have it collected within three miles of his door and converted into butter at a creamery operated by the Dairy Disposal Board. I then went to Wexford. The Shelbourne Co-operative Society having abdicated and gone over to the retail distribution business and closed their creameries, I proceeded to survey the county to see if I could fill the gap they had deserted. My difficulty is this, that the people have got out of the habit of providing milk in quantity and with the regularity which makes the maintenance of creameries easy over wide areas.

Now I am going to make a proposal to them. They closed down three creameries in Wexford. If they will put these abandoned premises at our disposal, I will try this experiment out. I cannot establish creameries because the people are not minded to produce milk in quantity to make that economic; I cannot sell farmers' butter because the purchaser will not buy. Deputy Allen tells me that the farmers in Wexford are constrained to sell their butter for 1/6 and 1/9 a lb. I will give them the equivalent of 2/6 a lb. If they will bring their milk into any one of these abandoned buildings, I will reopen it as a cheese factory. We will try converting that milk into cheese and we will pay them 1/- per gallon for the milk. We will annex to the cheese industry the feeding of pigs, using the whey which farmers have not yet familiarised with as a substitute for skimmed milk, barley locally produced and other feeding stuffs.

If, at the end of 12 months' operation, there is a surplus of profit on our year's transactions, whatever that surplus is will be distributed by way of bonus in respect of each gallon of milk delivered to the cheese and pig centre by the farmer. There will be no shareholders and there will be no stockholders. The only measure will be: how many gallons of milk did the farmer deliver to the cheese factory? If he delivered 100 gallons and there is to be a distribution of a surplus permitting of ½d. a gallon for all the milk received at that manufacturing centre in 12 months, he will get ½d. for every gallon, that is, 4/2 per 100 gallons, and if he delivered 1,000 gallons, he will get 4/2 multiplied by ten. Whatever surplus there is will be distributed among the milk suppliers.

That is the best I can do. I do not know whether it will succeed or not, but it is worth trying, and, in any case, it is some effort to ensure that those who do not want to produce milk on the basis on which it is produced in Limerick, Cork and Tipperary, but who still, in their ordinary course of mixed husbandry, have a surplus of milk for which Deputy Allen tells me that, consequent on their abandonment by the Shelbourne Co-operative Society, they are now constrained to take 1/6 and 1/9 a lb. as butter, will get more for it. I will give them 2/6, and more if the product of their milk realises it, and for any quantity. Maybe it will be a greater success than I dare to hope. I do not want to raise false hopes. I am talking in terms of minima and the equivalent of 2/6 per lb. is better than 1/6 and it has this virtue, that it is better than hot air. Lip sympathy is cheap. A concrete effort to help may be neither popular nor successful, but it at least has the virtue of an effort to do one's best. If there is any Deputy who can make me a proposal that would improve on that, I want to hear it, and, if it can be grafted on to that proposal or substituted for that proposal, I will be glad to give effect to it.

The Minister is aware that Mitchelstown Creameries are paying 1/6½ per gallon for milk to make cheese.

If that is so I shall have it investigated at once. The returns made to my Department do not reveal that, but I shall have that checked and examined at once, and the accounts of the creamery can be further reviewed. This interesting fact, however, is true, that, in an effort to help the farmers of Mitchelstown, I sought a customer to buy their Gruyere cheese — 500 tons of it — and the thanks I got was that the customer I sought for that cheese got a letter consisting of one line: "We are not interested in your business." I had to send for the customer, bring him back again, and ask him to go down to Mitchelstown because I was not interested in the Mitchelstown creameries. I was interested in the farmers who supplied their milk, and I did not want to be told again that their milk was surplus and an embarrassment to that establishment. Small wonder it would be if the reaction to an order is that they are not interested in the business. Do not quote that establishment's figures to me. I do not hear any yells of denial.

Wait until we read it in the newspapers. I do not wish to interrupt.

For the past three weeks the Fianna Fáil Party, debating another Estimate, have concentrated their attention on the cost of living. We listened to the grievous story of the people labouring under the cruel burden of a rising cost of living. Now, mark this interesting fact. The pied piper of Hamelin of that démarche was Deputy Lemass. He sounded the tuning fork and the band behind scrupulously tuned their instruments and played loud and long.

The burden of their symphony was that the wage-earner and the poor were staggering under the cruel burden of the murderous prices that the ignorant, grasping farmers were demanding for their produce. All the food the people had to eat was dear and scarce, the people in the country were well enough off, but God help the poor; the cost of living had gone up and they were groaning under the burden, and it was the farmers, it was the food, it was the agricultural produce that were grinding down the people. We reached the stage when it had become almost a crime to spit on your hand on a fair day and to ask a man to rise 10/- or £1 in the price of a beast was to turn the screw again and drag the last drop of blood out of the suffering people of the country.

I thought it was the speculators here who were responsible.

It was — those begotten by Fianna Fáil — and I reveal them now. Nineteen hundred and forty-seven is the datum year for the cost of living; every cost of living figure since is related back to 1947, which is taken as the datum figure of 100. There has been 40 per cent. devaluation of currency since that datum year was fixed; 40 per cent. Yet the cost of living in this country held the line; despite devaluation of 40 per cent., not one point went on the cost of living. Do you know why? During that period of two years the cost of living rose by 18 points in respect of clothing, rent and rates. Do you know why the allover figure did not rise? Because every one of its 18 points was absorbed by a fall in the cost of food. Irish agriculture absorbed 18 points of that rise, and because the poor old camel staggered under the 19th straw, the elements in this country that put the 18 straws on his back are never blamed, but the camel who carried them all and faltered when the 19th and 20th straws were put on his back is made the villain of the piece. Agriculture, food: these are the things that are crushing our people — when, in fact, agriculture and food counterweigh the rise in the price of clothing, the rise in the price of rent and taxes and insulate our people from the impact of it all. But that is not all.

In the same period, the boot and shoe industry and the leather industry had been subsidised by the live-stock industry to the tune of £700,000 a year. £700,000 per annum of a subsidy is paid by the live-stock industry to boot, shoe and leather industry. Fianna Fáil Deputies have been spending three weeks for the purpose of establishing in this Parliament that the farmers are a burden on their neighbours, that they are plundering the poor, that they forced the price of food up and that if there is any increase in wage demands by the trade unions or the wage-earners it is due to the agricultural community having forced up their prices and their profits. What has happened to the Deputies of Fianna Fáil that they want to sell their own people whom they are supposed to represent, to traduce and falsify them to serve their own political ends? The farmers have carried the cost of living, they have carried the boot and shoe industry, they have carried 40 per cent. devaluation.

What about the fertiliser industry?

Mr. Blaney

Now they are carrying the baby.

God knows, they are carrying the baby and look at it — he has started; and every damage he could do his own neighbours, he did it, since he got here, and he has been amply seconded by his colleagues in the Fianna Fáil Party. Is it not true that in the last three weeks the case was made in this House that our people were ground down by the rising cost of living, largely consisting of increased cost of food, and that the wage-earner could no longer bear this cruel burden? Is not that the case that was made? Was there a word said from Fianna Fáil making the case that there was an increased cost of living from tariffs, from clothing, from boots, from rents, rates and everything else? Not a whisper. It was food, food, food. These creatures who are supposed to represent the farmers were afraid or were too ignorant to state the facts. Do not forget who sounded the tune. It was Deputy Lemass who told them the tune they were to play — and they played it.

It would be very awkward if the Minister were asked to quote.

The funny part of it is that the poor things believed it and now their faces are red when they discover what fools they have been made. Will they repent their error and recant it? No, when they have been made fools of, it now becomes a matter of personal honour with them to justify their folly — and they will — but I am asking them to say now, when they are discussing the Vote for Agriculture, whether they were right when they followed the Pied Piper of Hamelin, as played by Deputy Lemass, in charging agriculture with burdening the wage-earner and the poor; or do they suffer the wool to be pulled over their eyes and were they misled into denouncing agriculture for what agriculture had, in fact, protected the people from, to the tune of £700,000 a year on boots and shoes, with 18 points in the cost of living and 40 per cent. in the devaluation of money? If there is blame for a rise in the cost of living, put it where it belongs; but so long as I am Minister for Agriculture in the existing state of affairs, it will never be put on the farmers. As in the past, so to-day, they carry on their backs every other section of the population; and they have fought valiantly in the last three years. If everyone else in the community did as well, we might not have as many difficulties to contend with. God knows, when we look around the world, hopping and trotting, we are wonderfully well off. I crossed Europe not long ago, Switzerland included, and I would not change this country for any country I got a sight of or heard a story of.

Hear, hear!

Up the Republic!

Up Ireland is of more concern to me. I am so sick of listening to comparisons of our performance with that of Denmark and of Holland and of Belgium. I have the greatest respect and admiration for these countries and for their people, but Ireland is Ireland, and our people are our people, and you do not deal with our people on the basis that you deal with Danes, Belgians or Dutch. God grant that it may be ever so.

I have to inform the House that the grain storage problem is now being dealt with. Twenty thousand tons of extra storage is being built in Cork; 16,000 tons is being built at the port of Dublin, and plans are under examination to build a further 60,000 tons storage at that port. When we have that storage established the general situation will be further reviewed, and if further additions are necessary they will be made. I should say that certain converted additional storage is being made available at the port of Limerick. Our aim is to provide sufficient first class storage to permit of carrying 12 months' supply of bread cereals should that course at any time be considered prudent or necessary.

Deputies are aware that schemes are proceeding for the eradication of contagious abortion. They have been attended with a remarkable degree of success, and I am happy to report that whereas in other countries where similar schemes were started it took two or three starts before they got under way, here in Ireland the thing took on splendidly from the very beginning, largely owing to the fact that people on both sides of the House and supporters of Parties on all sides of the House made common front and common cause behind the campaign. There is not the slightest doubt that the uniformity of desire to make a success of it contributed very materially to the outstanding success it has been and is being. I am beholden to Deputies of all sides of the House for the help and co-operation they gave. I think we have all reason to be proud of the measure of success which has attended our efforts to get the people to appreciate the value of Strain 19.

We are pressing on with the campaign to eradicate parasitic diseases, and I think that has met with a very high measure of success. I ask Deputies, when they look at the June figures of live-stock population, to take very careful note of the relations between the number of cattle under one year in June, 1949, and the number of cattle between one and two years in June, 1950, for that difference will be the measure of our success in the eradication of parasitic diseases. I venture to prophesy that it will reveal a very remarkable and gratifying success.

I hope that we will shortly be able to commend to the public a standard and approved method of dehorning cattle. We should avoid as far as possible the necessity for that operation after cattle have reached maturity. It is perfectly easy effectively to perform the operation without causing an animal the slightest pain or inconvenience if it is done at an early stage of horn development. I know that it is not for the want of the will, but for the want of the way that a great many of our people have failed so far to practise this method. I am trying to find out the surest, the safest and the easiest method of application so that we can get a standard applicator and a standard material which will not melt away in the cow-house, which will not contaminate anything it comes in touch with, and which, at the same time, can be easily and painlessly applied to a calf with the assurance that horn-growth will thereafter be arrested.

Now I have to tell the House that we are confronted with the necessity for undertaking something that understandably we have been reluctant to undertake heretofore and that is the eradication of tuberculosis. I would ask the House to appreciate that that is no mean undertaking, and I would ask the House to believe that we are preparing to face it with no illusion as to the magnitude of the task, because my aim is not to attack tuberculosis on the basis of clinical disease, but to attack it on the basis of tuberculin reaction.

Now, all of us in this House know that, of the animals who react to the tuberculin test, a high percentage have no clinical tuberculosis at all. But if you look at it from the other end it is equally true to say that a very high percentage of cattle which will react to the tuberculin test, if they are allowed to go into the herd as milch cows, will certainly develop clinical tuberculosis and in the process of manifesting clinical symptoms will infect two or three more cows, and so the cycle goes endlessly on. Experienced persons in live-stock matters will recoil in dismay at the thought of tackling this on the ground that it is too formidable.

Nothing is too formidable to be done. If it is not done, some child is going to get tuberculosis that need not have got tuberculosis. I do not want to be visionary, I do not want to be impracticable, I do not want to put my hand to the impossible, but quite simply, and I have thought over it for a long time, I am just not prepared to buy peace of mind and ease of body at the cost of my child's life or the life of any of my neighbour's children. If I had a herd of cows and was selling liquid milk for consumption, I, and I think most Deputies here, could not rest easy if I or they thought that any of the cows might be giving tubercular milk and the child of one of our customers died. Not in so direct a sense, but in an analogous sense, for good or ill, I am fool enough to accept £1,550 a year as Minister for Agriculture in this country. It must be the lowest paid Ministry of Agriculture outside Liberia. But, so long as I am fool enough to take that salary, I am in a sense responsible for the milk supply that is made available to our people, as the delegate or agent of the Deputies of this House.

I am going to eliminate tuberculosis. It is going to cost a lot of money. There are two methods of approach. You can either go to the area where you think there is the least incidence of disease, or you can go to the area where the disease incidence is highest and which is the source from which the disease perennially percolates out through the rest of the country. In Great Britain they are proceeding on the basis of attacking the fringe and working inwards. In Ireland, they are going to attack the centre and work outwards.

Now, we have one exceptional stroke of luck which makes it physically possible to contemplate this thing. The really formidable difficulty here has never been the question of money, has never been the question of will or desire on the part of this Government or its predecessor or the predecessor of the last Government to tackle this job; it was the question of replacement. If you went in and slaughtered all the animals, it became a question of physical difficulty where you would get cows to put in their places. Now, we have had a queer stroke of luck. Heretofore, there was always a stiff demand from Great Britain for milking Shorthorn heifers and, by the mercy of God and the goodness of Providence, the British milk farmer in the South of England has gone over to Friesians, Ayrshires, Guernseys and Jerseys. Thanks be to God, because I have the heifers now in Ireland wherewith to replace the cows which we might not have been able to replace if the Friesians, the Jerseys, the Guernseys and the Ayrshires had not been favoured by the milk producers in the South of England.

Here, in Ireland, we have the dual purpose Shorthorn as the rock on which to build; the best milking breed in the world, if we want to go in for milk, is the Kerry cow, and be independent of outside sources of supply; thus we have for replacement, whichever type of farmer wants replacement, the best pure milking breed in the world and the best dual purpose breed the world has ever seen. Tuberculosis on that definition is not going to be wiped out to-morrow or the next day but, with the help of God, we have put our hand to it to-day and we will not stop until it is. If the bill is big, I make this offer to any Deputy in the Dáil or any Deputy hereafter, that whatever the bill is, I will ask the Government to put its counterpart in bundles of notes on that floor and, if there is any citizen in the State who will bring his son in and cut his throat with the razor I will provide, he can have the bundles. If he is not prepared to make that bargain with his own son, he should not chide me for refusing to make the same bargain with some other one's son.

I want to touch for a moment on the consumption of liquid milk in this city. In Dublin, it has risen, as between 1947 and 1950, in the months of January, February, March, April and May, in this ratio: January, 44,000 to 54,000, average daily consumption; February, 43,000 to 55,000; March 46,000 to 56,000; April, 48,000 to 56,000. I have not got the May figure. In the Cork selling area from 1947 to 1950, the average daily consumption of milk has risen in the month of January from 9,100 to 9,400; in February it rose from 9,100 to 9,600; in March from 9,000 to 9,800; in April from 9,200 to 9,700. I have not got the May figure, but I am glad to be able to inform Deputies that the tendency is upwards and we have felt justified in initiating a "drink more milk" campaign, and we hope that it may be successful in driving the consumption still higher.

I promise Deputies that I will make available, at such intervals as they think it reasonable to demand, full statistics in respect of the performances of the land rehabilitation project in each of their constituencies.

Those figures can be circulated.

They can, but I thought that I had them with me. I am sorry to delay the House. I can give the House figures for 20 counties, and later I can give them for the Twenty-Six Counties. We have approved work which is proceeding upon 9,021 applications from 20 counties. These comprise 37,000 acres.

Will the Minister say undertaken by whom—by the proprietor himself or on his behalf?

Will the Minister give us the segregation of that figure?

Yes, but wait until I give the other figure that I have here. In respect of the works executed and completed, we have dealt with 32,950 perches of fencing. We have cleared 41,870 perches of out-fall drains. We have drained 1,723 acres by clearance of out-falls and made available for field drainage, as a result of out-fall clearance, .2,493 acres. We have drained by field drainage 5,426 acres, and we have cleared an area of 4,320 acres of rock, furze and scrub.

The number of persons employed by the Department is 495 at headquarters and in the country, by farmers, whole time, 9,638, and part time 4,862. In the spreading of lime and phosphates, it is estimated that 636 will be employed, and in the manufacture of drainage pipes, 800. I would like to pause for a moment there. Open confession is good for the soul. I ran into a bottleneck. I took a gamble. I believed that the land project would not develop faster than I could locate pipes. In a sense, I am glad and happy to say that it did, but I do not deny that I experienced a couple of weeks' embarrassment because I had drains opened and could not get pipes to put in them. But where there is a will there is a way. We got them in Derry, Holland, Crumlin, Athlone. We got them wherever we could get them.

Now, Deputies may think that we need not have gone to so much fuss, bother and trouble in regard to the making of a cement pipe. The snag in that is this, that it takes a minimum of three months to cure a concrete pipe. You may have 250,000 concrete pipes stacked in the manufacturer's yard, but the manufacturer, and perfectly rightly, will not sell you one of them until he has had them for a minimum of three months, and many prefer to have them for six or eight months.

Is it an effective job when you have them?

I doubt that.

Provided the land has not an acid reaction generally; then the Deputy will have observed that in that category of land we are using clay pipes. These are the ones that we had to get in Derry and anywhere else that we could put our hands on them. However, the panic is now over and we have got them. But we are going to do more than that, I hope. We are in consultation with the Turf Development Board, and I am hoping that we shall be able, where there is a suitable deposit of clay anywhere convenient to a bog, to marry the turf and the clay— the turf as fuel for the kiln and the clay as raw material for the pipes— and to make these pipes as cheap as they can be made anywhere in the world, because nearly 80 per cent. of the cost of a clay pipe is fuel and 80 per cent. of the cost of fuel is transport. If you can bring the clay and fuel together you can equate the calorific value of turf fuel with coal, because the absence of the transport of turf off-sets the superior calorific value of the coal. If we can do that in small units, wherever you get the coincidence of turf and clay, you can have a whole lot of very nice useful little industries using domestic raw materials and involving a capital outlay which would not be beyond the capacity of any half-dozen enterprising lads down the country.

So far as the resources of the Industrial Credit Corporation and of the Agricultural Credit Corporation would be necessary to help an enterprising group of lads down the country who are prepared to go the right way about it in consultation with the Turf Development Board, the quicker they come to us the more welcome they will be. Now I am going to get the pipes. I will buy them in Nagasaki or Peru if I have to, and I will buy every pipe that is produced by anybody from clay and a turf-fired kiln in this country.

And peat will not have to go up the spout any more?

I will try and put some of it up the chimney and, God knows. I will have a job if it is the stuff that is in the Phoenix Park. But the stuff that I am thinking of is the kind of stuff that the Deputy and I who were born and reared in the midst of—turf we were accustomed to call it before it got the grand title of peat. When we were lads, it was commonly known as ignorant turf——

And still is.

——until it got the higher title of peat, which has developed the strange characteristics we have become familiar with in the Phoenix Park.

Turf mould.

Wheat and beet rhyme well with peat.

When it went Fianna Fáil it got queer.

There are two other matters I want to mention: one is agricultural credit and the other is wheat offals. I am a great believer in the sovereignty of Parliament. I think this Parliament has a right to do anything it likes within the moral law. Now, you want pollard to be made available to the consumer rather than put it into compound feeding. So long as I could not find an alternative anywhere to take the place of pollard in the compound feed, I had to resist that demand from the Opposition because I knew that, if I conceded it, I would reduce the total volume of feeding stuffs below the level which it was safe to do. Nevertheless, if you want it and if it is possible, there is no reason on this earth why, out of pure mischief, I should refuse to accommodate you. You have as much right to live in this country as I have and, so long as I am working for the Opposition Deputies, as I am for the Deputies on this side of the House, my job is to do as nearly as I can what you want. Accordingly, I have been able to buy cheap wheat on the Pacific coast. As soon as the cheap wheat comes in so that I can offer it to the compound feed manufacturers to replace the volume of pollard they are at present getting, I will release all the pollard and all the bran for retail sale. Now, you will not be one ha'porth better off; but the Deputies across the way do not know that. What will happen is that there will not be enough pollard to supply everybody's need. It will be distributed on a quota basis to each shop, so much per cent. of what they got pre-war. The cute boys will know the day the pollard is coming in and they will be sitting on the doorstep at 9 o'clock in the morning, waiting with a horse and cart and they will gallop in and take a bag of pollard.

If Deputies opposite think that shopkeepers in the country will quarrel with customers by refusing them a bag of pollard and offering them instead three-quarters of a stone in a paper bag they are very much mistaken. The first 20 customers will get 20 bags, and the next 80 will get nothing. But if that is the way you want it, and I can so arrange it without injuring the public interest, I conceive it to be my job to go as far as I can to meet your wishes. That will be done just as soon as the Pacific wheat gets here. I will bring it in at £23 a ton, or thereabouts, at the railhead down the country, and the manufacturers will have to make the best fist they can of it. They will have to make the compound with that low grade wheat instead of with the pollard they have been getting heretofore.

I come now to credit for farmers. Any co-operative society that will work with me can operate any credit scheme they care to formulate consistent with the approval of their suppliers. The sky is the limit. Does that constitute fair provision of credit facilities? Any co-operative creamery society in rural Ireland that wants to operate any credit scheme they care to formulate for their suppliers, if they will come to me I shall facilitate them, and the sky is the limit.

When was that not possible?

Up to now I should think.

It could have happened for years back.

In any case it is now possible and I am trying to see if I can meet the reasonable requests of Deputies wherever they want credit facilities. We are ourselves operating schemes for milking machines, premium bulls, heifers, agricultural implements, poultry equipment, limekilns. In fact, I think this might be an interesting White Paper, and if any Deputy wishes to have it he can ask me for it. I shall not thrust it upon him but, if any Deputy is interested in knowing what the existing sources of credit and grants for farmers are, if he will send me a postcard I shall be very happy to send him back a copy of this brief and spare him and the House the time I would take to read it here.

That will save a lot of trouble.

Do not trouble to read that.

I hope that will suit Deputies and I trust that the Deputies will not charge me with being discourteous or reluctant to read it out. It will be more convenient if those who are interested bespeak a copy. I shall make it available with the greatest pleasure. On top of that then, any scheme for providing credit for the farmer that any co-operative society desires to formulate, if it conforms with the most elementary standard of prudence, I shall facilitate that society, and the sky is the limit.

There should be some publicity on this.

Do not be one bit worried. There will be. Every sagacious head in Ireland will wag. Deputy Lehane will say: "Oh, is not the Minister being flamboyant?" I am, for the express purpose of bringing it to the knowledge of farmers everywhere that we want them to have——

Hitting the high spots!

Is there anything wrong in using a form of words that will carry home to every farmer the fact that everybody here wants to make facilities available to him and that we have the means of making facilities available to him?

And yet two-thirds of the applicants were rejected.

Wait a moment. I have the figures somewhere. All my papers were in perfect order when I began; they have gradually become disordered.

I am afraid that is going to happen to me, too.

I can assure the Deputy that I will show him the same gracious forbearance that he has shown me.

It is well worth waiting for because it is the most important matter in the Estimate.

That is why I prepared myself for it.

Is this something new?

Last year there were 1,403 loans made by the Agricultural Credit Corporation, comprising a total sum of £319,885.

How many applications were there?

That is the very information I want to give the Deputy. My information is that you have to divide the applications and the grants of loans by the Agricultural Credit Corporation into two categories; the first is that in which they exercise exclusive jurisdiction and the second is that in which the loans are made as the agent of the Department of Agriculture. In respect of the loans in which the Agricultural Credit Corporation has exclusive jurisdiction, my recollection is that of the applications made 20 per cent. withdrew. That seems to be a pretty common experience. When the formalities are completed, out of every 100 applicants originally, 20 per cent, withdraw; the applicants say that they will not bother about it, that they have made other arrangements. Thirty per cent. of the total were refused and about 50 per cent. granted.

Could the Minister say how many of these refusals were due to the fact that the Land Commission had not vested the land of the applicant?

I could not say that offhand.

It is a very important matter.

I wonder is it? I hate to see people in this country mortgage their lands. Some people deplore the fact that land is a bad security for a loan. I glory in it. In the part of the country from which I come, we do not like bailiffs and we do not give two fiddle-de-dees whether a hardpressed man was induced to give a bank a mortgage or whether he was not. We still do not like bailiffs, and we do not like grabbers. If any man takes a mortgage on land, particularly in Mayo or the West, let him take the mortgage but he does it with the full knowledge that, mortgage or no mortgage, we do not like bailiffs and we do not like grabbers. We do not think it suitable if you cannot recover your debt which nobody made you lend— you lent it yourself—that you should claim a right to put your neighbour out on the roadside.

You cannot give a mortgage until the land is vested.

So far as I am concerned, I am not one bit solicitous to facilitate the mortgaging of land in this country because I do not think a mortgage on a man's land in this country is worth much.

That will help the farmers to get loans.

If you want it put any clearer, I do not believe a mortgage, whether it be a landlord's or a grabber's mortgage, on any man's holding in this country, is worth two straws. Whether it be a bailiff or a grabber who comes by virtue of a mortgage to claim the title to a man's land he will find there are a great many people not prepared to give up their title because he is a bailiff and a grabber, and they do not want him. If that is injurious to credit, let it injure credit. We do not want a system in this country under which anybody— banker, moneylender or anybody else —can acquire a lien on his neighbour's home that will entitle him to go in on foot of a debt that he himself created, not for love of his neighbour's lovely blue eyes, but because he thought he could get a profit for himself. We do not want him to come down under the mantle of virtue, put his neighbour out on the side of the road, and grab his holding.

A Deputy

Does that apply to loans made by the Agricultural Credit Corporation?

I am talking about all moneylenders, usurers, bankers and others who lend money in the hope of making a profit upon it. Do not start going down the list of moneylenders and asking: "Does that apply to him?" It would be a very awkward thing for some Deputies of this House if that came under review. It applies to all of them inside and outside the House. Anyone who goes down and tries to grab his neighbour's holding in satisfaction of a debt that he himself created is not welcome and, please God, in this country he never will be.

Yet the Minister will advance £12 per acre on the security of a bog.

The Deputy is quite mistaken. Does the Deputy see no difference between the investment of money in the improvement of land which remains a charge upon the land, no matter who lives upon it, and the lending of money by mortgage? Does the Deputy see no difference between a land annuity payable for land and the payment of money obtained on security of land for the purchase of something else that is gone, lost and forgotten? Does the Deputy see no difference between a loan enjoyed and dissipated by somebody of the last generation or the generation gone before and a loan, the entire proceeds of which are applied to the improvement of land that survives the borrower, no matter who he may be, and that is created only when this Government is satisfied that every penny of it, and a good deal of his own money too, will go into the improvement of the land which will survive him? Is there not a distinction there? Grabbers are unwelcome in this country and will ever be so. I know of no credit facility that any farmer in this country may require that cannot be made available now, but if there is, whatever it be, let a creamery co-operative society or other co-operative society formulate a scheme to provide that and, if it conforms with the elements of prudence, they will get every facility from this Government and the sky is the limit.

I should like to tell the House of the work which is proceeding at Johnstown. That, however, could best be appreciated if Deputies would accept the very cordial invitation which the Department extends to each one of them to visit Johnstown now. It belongs to our people. You represent them and I feel that agricultural-minded Deputies would be doing a useful work if they visited it. I need hardly say that the institution would feel exceptionally favoured, if the two Deputies at present occupying the Front Benches opposite honoured it by their attendance. I believe they and their colleagues would find there much to interest them and much to be proud of. If they visit it before the middle of the next month, or just at this moment, they will see the various experiments that are proceeding there at present, experiments that are of special interest to those who are not primarily concerned with the scientific end. They would see these experiments in their natural progress. You have one large field there in which every cereal is grown, subject to every mineral deficiency we know, while growing beside it is the same crop fully fertilised. There is a potato field divided into sections where potatoes are growing side by side, each plot subject to a deficiency in one mineral. Any farmer having studied that plot, can afterwards discern in his own potatoes what lack there may be. Trials and demonstrations are also carried on in respect to wheat, oats, potatoes, swede turnips and, I think, mangels. That only touches on the fringe of the work which relates also to grass management, the availability of fertilisers, etc. In short, I exhort all Deputies to gratify the most excellent staff of that institution by showing sufficient interest to go and visit them. I am glad to inform Deputy Allen, who is interested in it, that at last we are on our way.

We are building up stocks of indigenous dry grass and hope we are on our way to ensure that every farmer in this country growing rye grass for sale will grow a pedigree perennial indigenous stock suitable to the soil of this country. I have this interesting fact to tell the House. I abolished protection and restriction of every sort, kind or description on the grass seed trade 18 months ago. It has never been more prosperous since and we are now exporting substantial quantities in competition with every other country in the world and, in any market we meet them, we can beat them hands down. Our only difficulty is to get sufficient supplies to meet the demands that are being made upon it. Deputies should get it out of their heads that there is nothing produced in this country that cannot be produced cheaper and better somewhere else. What we produce in this country can and should be the best of its kind. We are now about to embark on the propagation of varieties of swede turnip. We will sell it on the open market without restriction or tariffs whatsoever. I do not want any farmer in this country to buy an ounce of it because it is Irish. The only grounds on which I would suggest that anyone would buy it were because it was the best in the world, and if people here do not think so there are plenty of people outside who do. We have also inaugurated the litter-testing of pigs. The artificial insemination centre will be based at Grange farm, close to Trim, where we recently acquired 516 acres of land. We aim to use that farm (1) to take the place of Chantilly, the title to which we shall shortly relinquish: we held it on a series of leases under which we paid an annual rent; (2) to operate a liquid milk business for the City of Dublin so as to check on methods, costings and any other developments that might be of use and profit to those farmers who are primarily engaged in the liquid milk business; (3) to assemble a supply of proven bulls. These will be assembled at Grange and, in so far as may be required, they are used for the central artificial insemination centre. If it becomes desirable to have further artificial insemination centres in other parts of the country, they can be sent thence to them.

Will you keep any Friesian bulls there?

No. The last thing I wanted to say is that I had hoped to be able to tell the House the basis of the settlement with the British Ministry of Food in respect of pigs and bacon. I am not, because I have not made it, but the matter is still under discussion. It may be that I am unduly optimistic. I do not think I am. I think we will settle that matter to our mutual satisfaction. If we cannot, it will not be for the want of the will. It will be just that we are not prepared to produce for what they are prepared to pay. We need not quarrel about it at all. There is a certain minimum which I am prepared to propose to our people and I am not prepared to propose less. I have always found, when dealing with the British people, that they are a reasonable people. It is legitimate to anticipate that when you are dealing with reasonable people ultimately they act reasonably. To date I have not been disappointed. Therefore, I want most deliberately to say to those who value my opinion that I believe that, for the next four years, pig production is going to be highly profitable for our people. I hope, and I emphasise the word "hope," to make an agreement with the British Ministry of Food which it will tax the capacity of our bacon factories to produce—tax their capacity to produce—and which, at the same time, will tax the capacity of our ships to carry pigs to Great Britain. I want to warn the House of this: you have wrought so powerfully on the subject of the cost of living and the price of bacon that you are going to have the satisfaction of seeing certainly one, and possibly two, of the largest bacon factories in the country close down in the course of the next few weeks. I do not know how far that gratifies the Deputies who have succeeded in making the welkin ring on that subject. It causes me acute and bitter anxiety for the hundreds of men who are going to be thrown out of work.

Why are these factories closing down?

One in Cork——

Because they have gone bust. I feel a certain sense of guilt in respect of one of them at least because I urged them to carry on when they wanted to close down 18 months ago. I pointed to the number of men they were employing and, with great public spirit, they did carry on, on my strong recommendation to do so, in the belief that they were going to make a profit. I said that things were coming round. I said "recover what you have lost and what you are losing" and they did, but they are gone now and folding up. I am afraid there is another one going to go in the West. I wish to God Deputies would think before they let themselves loose without realising the line they are taking.

I always wished that myself.

There has been a bombardment here about the price of bacon in the last three weeks. You would really imagine, to read it, that the price of bacon consisted exclusively of the price paid for best back rashers in Baggot Street. There is no use pretending that I or any other Minister for Agriculture can produce a breed of pigs which consists of nothing but best back rashers. No pig can walk on best back rashers, or sit down on best back rashers, or root in the ground with best back rashers. If you ask me what part of a pig is tastiest and best, I would say a pig's cheek, but we have all got so grand and aristocratic that nobody would eat a pig's cheek. Nobody in this House would bother to debate a pig's cheek. Nobody gets lower than streaky bacon, which used to be called belly bacon in the unilluminated days of yore. It is now streaky bacon. I cannot produce pigs, and nobody else can produce pigs, which consist exclusively of best back rashers, but if you will read the advertisements that are appearing in the papers, you will see that there is a great deal of every side of bacon which can be bought from ½ a lb. up. If the whole community has got so stylish and so rich that they will eat nothing but best back rashers, I hope to God they will be made pay 5/- a lb. for it. I will do without them without any difficulty at all and I will enjoy the bit of bacon I will buy just as well as they will enjoy their best back rashers. I will get my bit for ½ and the more they have to pay the less I will have to pay.

I have no sympathy in the wide world with people who can eat nothing but the best back rashers. The devil mend them. But I would be concerned if I had evidence before me that a deliberate attempt was made in a situation of scarcity to exploit the people. There is no scarcity. There is plenty of bacon. There is not plenty of best back rashers, but you can get good boiling bacon in any shop in the city to-day from ½ a lb. up, and you can get a pig's cheek for 1/- a lb. I had one the day before yesterday.

The Lord have mercy on John Count McCormack. He, I suppose, had been in the most fashionable restaurants in the world. We never had lunch together that we did not have pig's cheek because both of us liked it. If it was good enough for him, it is good enough for the aristocrats that are going the road now. Those who want best back rashers, let them pay what they like. Those who want bacon, I would like to see them get it at a fair price, and those who want a pig's cheek can buy it at 6d. a lb. cheaper than they could buy it three months ago. I will do with the pig's cheek and a piece of boiled bacon until the rashers come down. If the grocers are waiting for me to pay 4/-, 5/- or 6/- a lb. for best back rashers they will be in the old men's home in Kilmainham before they sell any more best back rashers, and I will never miss them.

If a few more people in this country would say as much, this House would not be given over for three weeks to an ill-informed assault upon the agricultural community, the first fruits of which are the closing down of two bacon factories. Does Deputy Killilea doubt it?

I do not doubt the closing down of the factories.

If he does, I would ask him to consult his colleague, Deputy Moran, who spoke at the meeting of the Castlebar Bacon Factory, and let him be ruled by his judgment. I am concerned with the men who are going to lose their employment in those factories. I am going to take the risk of saying that, in my judgment, we will make an agreement yet that will make both of those factories pay. We will make an agreement yet that will put both those factories on overtime, provided one thing, that the farmers will accept my word for that and breed pigs now. I do not deny that I am asking them to take a risk. There will be those who will say to them that feeding stuffs are dear and that maybe the demand will not be there. I cannot counter that at the present moment, but I give them this advice and none of the advice I have given them so far has failed.

They will have to live on grass.

Deputy Harris has begun already, saying that they will have to live on grass. The farmers can now choose between Deputy Harris and me. He has already started to help. He says that if you breed pigs you will have only grass to feed them on. I suspected that that would start pretty soon. I set my views against Deputy Harris's. Let those who believe in Deputy Harris take his advice. Let those who accept my view take mine. My advice is clear and concise: breed pigs now to employ the men who would otherwise be unemployed, and to earn the money that otherwise cannot be earned. Deputy Harris's advice is: breed no pigs; do not risk it; I prophesy that they will have nothing to eat but grass. Deputy Davern, Deputy Harris and Deputy Blaney—these three distinguished public servants—advised the people not to produce oats, not to produce potatoes and, having allowed that advice to sink in, Deputy Harris enters the arena to say:—

"and do not breed pigs because there will be no oats or potatoes so that they will only have to eat grass."

It is a constructive agricultural policy. If you keep on long enough at it, I suppose we will make our principal income out of moleskins because Deputy Harris will not be able to stop the moles from breeding. He will not be able to get at them. He could kill the rabbits, but the moles live underground, and I do not think Deputy Harris would be energetic enough to dig down to them.

He was energetic enough in 1916. You were not.

However, I set our policy against Deputy Harris's policy and let the people choose between them. I have suggested to the House that facts and results show that the policy we have recommended to our people employs more people on the land, produces greater wealth for this nation, than any policy adumbrated by the Opposition, and that agriculture has carried on its back all the increases and the burden our people have been called upon to bear, through clothing, through rent, through rates, has contributed £700,000 per annum in direct subsidy to the boot, shoe and leather trade, and still is proudly able to carry the community on its back and to get a decent living for the farmers too. I hope that will always be so. It will not be so if the advice of Deputy Blaney, Deputy Davern and Deputy Harris crystallises into an agricultural policy for this country. In my respectful submission, it will be so if the policy of this Government continues.

I move that the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration. I, too, brought a lot of papers with me. I thought I had enough, but the Minister gave me some more this morning when I arrived and I hope that, in the course of what I have to say, I will not get lost in them. When a Minister comes in here to move his Estimate — it is not an experience I had very often—I am inclined to have a good deal of sympathy with him because it is a nerve-racking kind of job. It is not an easy task to face a House like this, especially when the man moving the Estimate is responsible for the most important industry in the country. I had the experience once in relation to this Department and in relation to another on a few occasions. Was it not interesting to watch the Minister for the past two hours and 20 minutes?

You will beat that.

Just let me alone; I might happen to beat it again. Was it not terrifically interesting to listen to the Minister for the third time delivering the type of speech we had from him to-day and to compare it with the type of speech we had from him last year and the type of strutting speech we had from him in 1948? There was no attempt to-day to rally the boys behind him. There was, of course, a feeble effort to talk about the kept Press, to ginger them up. There was a reasonable effort to band them together in the hope that he would induce them for the third time to take the story he had to tell, but it was not the Deputy James Dillon we used to know who spoke to us to-day. He was cooing, he was gentle, he was considerate, and he was co-operative.

He was everything that was nice, and to me, however it may have affected others who saw fit to listen to it, it was a wonderful demonstration of the enormous improvement that has taken place in the manners, in the discipline and in the education, in a political sense, of Deputy James Dillon, now Minister for Agriculture, by the grace of God, apart altogether from the will of the people.

I am much obliged to the Deputy.

I do not know if the House took any notice of his defence. and, before developing my own speech in regard to these important matters, I want briefly to refer to points touched on by the Minister in order to show Deputies, if their minds have not served them as my mind has served me, the wonderful change that has taken place in the course of a few years. The House heard the Minister justify his action in withholding from open sale quantities of pollard for some time past and heard him give his arguments in support of that decision on his part. With the arguments, I am not now concerned; with the wisdom of the policy, I am not now concerned. I am not even going to say that it was unwise or that it was bad, nor am I going to claim that, if I had been there, I would have made a different decision; but Fianna Fáil at one time had an admixture scheme like the compound scheme to which he has referred. Will the House listen to a few words from Deputy James Dillon in regard to his attitude towards that scheme when he sat on these benches?

I have abolished the compound scheme.

At column 3044 of the Official Debates of June 18th, 1947——

It could not be too violent for me.

——he said:—

"Do you remember the maize mixture scheme? I stood by its cradle and wept. Now that I am polishing my silk hat for its funeral, I feel as if I had accepted an invitation to a wedding."

Not many could have said what he had to say, so far as these words represented his point of view, so beautifully as did Deputy James Dillon in 1947, but when we listen to Deputy James Dillon, Minister for Agriculture in 1950, defending his decision to withhold from open sale these quantities of pollard and to hand them over to the millers, the mixers and the compounders, who, in his own words, in these days were making the compound so as to oblige the public and getting no profits from it——

In the past 12 months. The compound mixers and all the people benefiting by the Minister's decision to withhold from open sale this pollard which the Minister handed over to them are different men from the millers responsible for the admixture scheme in our time. These men of to-day are men who are doing their work without pay, without reward and without profit of any kind.

Does the Deputy not see you can get Indian meal now, but could not get it when the maize meal mixture scheme was on?

I enjoyed more thoroughly the speech to which I have listened to-day than anything I have listened to or witnessed in this House since I came here in 1927, and I have been here without a break. These were the words of the Minister in regard to the maize mixture scheme. When he came to finish off his speech to-day, he left the pig on the rope to the end. If I were to read—I am not going to delve into this pig and bacon industry now—part of a speech delivered here by the present Minister some years ago on this question, surely it would help to an understanding as to why one must, being a human being, feel as I feel now, having listened to the Minister for two hours and 20 minutes? On the 15th October, 1947, as given in column 474 of the Official Debates, Deputy James Dillon said—whether he thought along these lines or not —in this House:

"I could restore the pig population in 12 months. I could provide every farmer and every consumer with all the bacon they would want and leave a substantial surplus for export to Great Britain. If you set out now to plant feeding barley and potatoes on the land at present being wasted in the cultivation of beet and some of the rubbish called wheat— but leave wheat out for the moment —we could restore the pig population in 18 months at the longest, make a profit on every pig, provide bacon for every table in this country, and have an export for Great Britain wherewith to purchase goods we want, because we should have an export which they particularly want. Of the total of their consumption, our production would form an appreciable percentage. Instead of that, we are to subsidise to the tune of £400,000 the increased acreage under beet, every acre of which will complicate the world situation created by a sugar surplus and every acre of which represents a serious loss to the national income."

Did I not export bacon to Great Britain within 18 months?

On the payment of a subsidy from the producers' pockets.

No. From October to December we exported bacon without paying a subsidy.

I would not say so much to members of the Opposition for being somewhat extravagant. I suppose it is in the nature of things for them to overstate a case from time to time.

Did I not perform all that?

On becoming a Minister, the Minister might prove to be a bit of an over-optimist; but when I throw my own mind back over the antics of Deputy James Dillon I think of the type of speech to which I have so often listened in this House, which I have quoted——

Did I not do what I promised?

——I think of the strutting fashion in which, in 1948, he came into this House to move his Estimate, after the completion of an agreement with Great Britain, the heads of which only were available to members of this House. Let me read an extract from his opening speech then. It occurred during the discussion with you, Sir, as to the scope of the debate. I came across a passage like this, given in column 2587 dealing with the Estimate for 1948:—

"Mr. Dillon: It is my impatience, Sir, to deal with them and to disclose their advantages which brings them to my mind. Let us be clear about it, and if we are to discuss their merits, I shall open the matter now. If, on the other hand, it is decided to postpone discussion on that matter I must, with reluctance, await the pleasure of doing so on another occasion.

An Ceann Comhairle: The Chair would like to know how far they cut across agricultural policy.

Mr. Dillon: They create quite unprecedented advantages to the agricultural industry of this country."

We have heard the speech to-day. Having waited all these months — it is a bit late to take this Vote now; it was taken a month earlier for the last two years — I thought we would have a comprehensive statement from the Minister for Agriculture, telling us the way in which the agreement referred to in these terms would work. I wanted to hear from him some information — we got it in regard to the price of eggs — on the butter situation. I wanted to hear about the prospect of disposing of it in a profitable fashion, in the event of our having a surplus for sale.

I wanted him to deal with the marketing of other produce.

It is on page 10.

I want to make my speech, and I am going to make it.

See page 10.

We are entitled to know, and we should have been told, if there was an economic market for butter.

Whether there was a prospect of our selling cheese——

——what was the market for other produce, what was the prospect of selling cream to Great Britain——

It is on page 10.

——what was the prospect of selling bacon and what would we get for it, what was the prospect of being able to sell bacon without a subsidy, what was the prospect of our continuing the increase forecast by the Minister in 1947. I expected to hear from him a statement setting out these items and telling us what he and his officials had been doing, what efforts had been made in regard to these items, what were the prospects facing those who look to the future and say: "We will engage in the production of these commodities, but we want to know what we will get for them."

Have I not given that?

I was genuinely hoping that I would be permitted to-day to do my best to make my speech, be it long or short, without interruption.

The Deputy is so entitled.

I beg the Deputy's pardon.

The Minister got a fair innings.

Most, Sir, but I thought that the Deputy had overlooked something. I will not say another word.

I do not want to give the impression that I am making a plea for mercy, but I think I should not be interrupted and that I am entitled to that protection. If I am entitled — as I am — to relate the speech to which we have listened to the opening passage in the speech of 1948, where are the "unprecedented advantages" referred to in that speech? In what sense does the performance of the Minister reach the promise which is contained in the speech, an extract of which I have read out, in which he told us that in 18 months he could raise the pig population, provide every household in the country with bacon and have a surplus for export and all the whole litany? Almost three years have elapsed, three years during which, as we know, the world was starving for food. When the agreement made in 1948, and described in this House in the language to which I have referred, was put to test, of what did the "unprecedented advantages" consist? They consist of our eggs being sold at 2/- a dozen when eggs are available for selling, and, of course, from an export point of view an inflated price when no eggs are available, no market for cream, no market for our surplus butter unless by the payment of a subsidy. We could only sell the first few thousand cwt. of bacon we had to sell in a market which gave us "unprecedented advantages" by the payment of a subsidy from the pockets of the farmers which brought the price in the British market from 217/- a cwt. to 224/- or 225/- a cwt. when, as I would be able to demonstrate by the production of figures given to me by the Minister himself, the wholesaler here at home was charged a much higher price than that at which this small surplus was sold in a world which was, as we know, starving for food.

The speech to which we have listened was a real Dillon speech. Not having a field wide enough to hold him he flashed on to the cost of living and talked to us about the time wasted by members of the Opposition in endeavouring to show that the cost of living had gone up. He made a charge which I at least think must be untrue. I did not take part in the discussion myself; I made no speech on the Vote. I seldom speak here at all because I hate it, but when I do I like to get a fair innings.

Four hours.

And every minute worth it.

I am not prepared to agree with the case that the increase in the cost of living was attributable to high food prices and an increase in farmers' incomes solely. There is one thing wrong with this Government above all others and the Minister for Agriculture has demonstrated that more clearly here to-day than any other Minister during the last two and a half years. If the present Government's industrial policy is having the effect alleged by the Minister for Agriculture, is it not reasonable that I should ask him what part he is playing to ensure that a policy which in his view is imposing these hardships will be modified or ended? I am not contending that I approve of or agree with the point of view expressed by him, but after all, if, as he claims, the boot and shoe industry has imposed a burden of £700,000 on the farming community — I do not accept that; but if it is a fact — what contribution is he making in that regard as a member of the Government which is responsible not only for the determination of agricultural policy but of national policy?

The Minister is not responsible.

I agree he is not directly responsible, but as a Minister he is one of a team who from day to day determine national policy. If one of that team comes into the House and makes a case that a particular industry is responsible for saddling the farming community with the substantial sum of £700,000, if that statement can be substantiated, if that argument can be proven, my question is: what is the Minister for Agriculture doing in the Cabinet?

Would you close down the tanneries and the boot factories?

There is no use in trying to have it every way. Either you come into this House with a national policy which has been debated at Executive Council meetings and over which every member of the Executive Council stands——

The Minister is responsible in this House for the Vote for Agriculture.

I do not want to resist your ruling in any way, but I am certainly not exceeding to the slightest degree the distance the Minister went in demonstrating that the increase in the cost of living in so far as it may have increased at all was attributable to the industrial policy we were pursuing in this country.

That is not true.

Is it not true that the Minister for Agriculture has charged one single industry with imposing on the farmers of Ireland a tax of £700,000 per annum? There is no use in the Minister's coming in here and making that accusation while at the same time, when you ask him what he is going to do about it, he says: "Would you close down the factories? Would you close down the tanneries? Would you close down the boot factories?"

My contention is that that is not the dilemma, but here is the dilemma. Deputy Daniel Morrissey, Minister for Industry and Commerce, has made up his mind, belatedly, that the wisest course to adopt is to pursue the Fianna Fáil policy. There is no talk now about a tariff on agricultural machinery. I sat in that place, responsible for this Estimate, only on one occasion and there was scarcely a Deputy on that side, including Deputy James Dillon, the present Minister, who did not tax me in the most violent way because I allowed the agricultural community to carry a tariff upon agricultural machinery. I believed in that policy and I believe in it yet. Am I not entitled to ask those who have claimed that these burdens were placed upon the agricultural community what they can do about it in the place where these things are decided, rather than come here and trot them out, giving us the impression that Deputy Morrissey, Minister for Industry and Commerce, made it clear to all those around him in the Cabinet: "Look here, this is my show and I will run it myself. The artificial manure factories give employment; I am interested in them, and so are the trade unions who are involved in the boot and shoe industry, and so are all the others"? On the other hand, the Minister for Agriculture says:—

"If that is going to be so, I must have a free hand, too."

One of the greatest mistakes that, in my view, has been made and will be made is this: When a Government decides upon a policy of national protection, there is no use in one member of that Government saying to himself, "I do not agree with that policy, but in order to keep in line, to keep the show going, I will not split on it, but I do not believe in it and I will not operate it in relation to the industry for the prosperity and direction of which I am responsible." Suppose that, as a national policy, were a bad policy, and suppose one individual held out against it and said: "I will not operate it in relation to the matters for which I am responsible," that would be an unwise decision, even though he might be fundamentally right. What would happen is this, that the section of the farmers who might get benefits of one kind or another, if the policy of national protection were applied to their interests, would get none of these benefits, while at the same time they would be called upon to pay the charges the Minister has indicated. To whatever extent additional charges are imposed on these people, they have to pay them and no section derives any advantage whatever.

The Minister made some reference here to the facilities available to co-operative societies to extend credit to any limit they wished. Then he went on to deal with mortgages and bailiffs and he got into quite an involved discussion on subjects about which all of us, I suppose, know a little. When we discuss credit, I think it is only right to say that when you invite a credit society to lend money, you are naturally expecting the neighbours to take action very often for the recovery of that money — perhaps not very often, but on some occasions — and much and all as farmers might be credit-worthy — the majority of them might be — you will find in every section of the community somebody who is not, and you are placing upon the neighbour the onus of making a decision as to who is and who is not, and you are asking him to do that in a perfectly voluntary way.

I never regarded that as a likely way out of the difficulty. It is all right as a challenge to co-operative societies to say: "Why do you not do your duty — the money is there for you?" But when you think of the member of the co-operative society who is a progressive man and has his business to mind and has no anxiety to get into difficulty with any neighbour, desirable or undesirable, he would say as most of us would say: "That is a task I am not prepared to undertake." The clearest guide as to the credit-worthiness of our farmers will be secured from an examination of the repayments in regard to a heifer loan scheme that was in operation some years ago, and it will be found also in a reply the Minister gave me last week as to the condition of the loans that were made in my time for the purchase of cattle and sheep after the bad winter of 1947.

As regards these loans I made sure that, so far as security was concerned, any sort of security whatever, in many of these cases those who were given as security may not have signed a document at all and yet, according to the Minister's statement here, the loans have been almost 100 per cent. paid. I gave the officials to understand that it was a loan free of interest, that we were taking these chances and there was a possibility that many of them would not pay. The fact that you had such a good response from the point of view of repayment — does the Minister desire to interrupt me?

I merely want to suggest that the Deputy should not tell the people not to pay their loans.

I did not mean that at all. I do not believe it would have the slightest effect. To tell you the truth——

They were meant to pay their loans, given time.

Some of them might want time — an extension — but if a man has it in his mind to pay, the question of whether it is secured by somebody else or not will not arise. In our approach to this whole credit business, I give these as examples to indicate that the farmer is entirely different from what he is represented to be. I do not want to make it appear that he is a saint or that you will not find amongst the farming community, as you will amongst other classes, people who are not perfect. You sometimes hear people talk of farmers as if they wanted loans just for the purpose of stuffing them in their pockets or of spending the money foolishly with no intention of repaying it. My experience of farmers in the main would certainly not answer to that description. My experience of farmers generally is that they will never take a loan unless they are reasonably satisfied that they will be able to repay it.

The Minister made some remarks about utility mortgages. I do not agree with him in that regard. I think his statement as to the value of a mortgage was extravagant. I know myself that in many cases a mortgage, any more than any other type of security to which I have referred in regard to a loan, is not worth the paper on which it is written. There are cases in which it is not a hardship or an injustice to enforce a mortgage, to whatever extent the mortgage is of any value, so as to increase the credit-worthiness of the agricultural community. I do not think we should give the impression that mortgages, in all circumstances, are just something to be thrown on one side and to be completely scrapped.

The Minister in this House and outside of it seems to harp a good deal on one thing, namely, wheat deliveries in the year 1949. To my mind there is nothing which makes a deliberative assembly look so childish — perhaps I may not be the best judge in the world of this but it is no harm to have an opinion — as to have a Minister standing up here endeavouring to prove, by the production of figures, something which we all know in our hearts to be foolish, or, if there is any reality in the figures which he produces, for a Deputy on the other side to attempt to knock the bottom out of them and show that he was entirely wrong. That always appears to me to be too much like child's play. I may say that I am not going to engage with the Minister in that sort of competition. It is not the sort of competition that I have any interest in. At the same time, I cannot resist referring to the matter. I know that, in referring to wheat deliveries in 1949, the Minister is trying to show that the policy pursued by him while resulting in a reduced acreage, has had a compensatory advantage of producing higher yields. There is a question that I would like to ask those who advance that argument in a serious way. It is this: if the policy which the Minister claims he has been operating has had that result in relation to wheat, why is it that it has not had the same result in regard to the yield of oats? To my sense of reasoning that is a far more intelligent question to ask because, as far as I am aware, the yield from the oats crop in 1949 was not as good as in previous years, while the yield from wheat was higher. The same, too, can be said of potatoes.

My query to the Minister is, what has he done to the soil of the Republic of Ireland to make this difference which he claims in regard to wheat yields and in regard to milk deliveries to the creameries? Am I not entitled to ask the Minister a further question? Assuming that the condition in which he found the soil was such that it was in need of lime and fertilisers, would I be not entitled to ask him to demonstrate in this House what tonnage of lime was distributed? He told me here a short time ago that the estimate of the requirements of lime in the country was 10,000,000 tons.

The information is to be found on pages 8 and 9 of the White Paper.

The Minister did not give me the White Paper until this morning, and I have not had time to read it. I was too interested in listening to him. I was absolutely thrilled.

All the particulars are to be found there.

When the Minister claims that these results have accrued from the application of a policy which we do not seem to see in motion, would it not be reasonable to expect the Minister to show that they were the result of the grinding or burning of 1,000,000 or 2,000,000 tons, or some enormous quantity of lime, or that they were due to the purchase, importation, sale and spreading of so many hundred tons of phosphates? I went into the figures for phosphates for the last three years, and all that the increase would give was 4 cwt. per acre. All the increased phosphates brought in would just give about 4 cwt. per acre over half the County Wexford. I suggest that is a very low figure. Why should a Minister make that sort of case for the purpose of advancing a political argument or of trying to justify himself before the House and the country? I suppose it may be a defensible kind of case to make, but it is not the sort of case that I would like to have to make myself if I were Minister, unless I was able to drive it home in the rough and ready manner that the ordinary farmer would do.

My attitude in that regard is exactly the same when I hear the Minister talk and give figures about milk production. Everybody knows that butter was scarce during the war years, and that during that time there was an excellent market for farmers' butter. Everybody knows that the scarcity of fats of one kind or another induced the farmers in those days to retain a proportion of their milk — in some cases all their milk — for conversion into butter at home. I am not saying that just for the purpose of proving to the House and the country that for the short time during which I was in office, or my predecessor we were not as bad as Deputy James Dillon painted us when he was a member of the Opposition. I do not care two hoots about that. I take this line because I think it is better when discussing agricultural matters, irrespective of whether or not it is to our political advantage, that Ministers should not make fools of themselves in making statements here about the rate of progress when all over the country every farmer is laughing his belly-full at such statements.

The acreage under wheat went down and the Minister tried to establish that the increased yield, despite the reduced acreage, was as a result of his policy. I invite him to tell us why we had not a similar position in regard to oats and potatoes. He should remember that in the years preceding 1949 the price and the availability of feeding-stuffs and the fact that wheat was controlled led the farmers, as we all know, to retain a larger quantity of their wheat at home for conversion into bread and for other purposes with the result that a lesser quantity was available generally for the public. Where is the use then in making a case here which every farmer knows to be unreal? The Minister is admittedly a very good and a very effective politician. I enjoy the way in which he tries to put some things over. When one wants as a Minister of State to impress the people, it is quite a good idea to talk about the conditions of employment for a Minister of State and the miserable salary attaching to that employment. By doing so the present Minister for Agriculture conveys the idea that he is practically tumbling over in wealth and that he has no selfish motive to serve; he is simply anxious to be there in order to speed the plough. When I hear the statement so often repeated of how underpaid the Minister is——

Do you not agree?

I was never really concerned very much. I had never had that salary before. I could live on far less.

You were young.

I was, and I am young still. I did not look at it in that way. Of course, Deputy Dillon, Minister for Agriculture, would regard himself as freer to comment upon the conditions of his employment than would a mere man from the bog who had no connection with business and no private income behind him. But all this is merely done to impress.

I have not as much as the manager of the gas works.

I say this, having listened to that comment for a long time.

I want a rise in my pay. Is there anything aristocratic in that?

You talk about having stood at the door waiting there miserably for 15 long years, knocking at the door to have it opened so that you might become Minister for Agriculture. Sure, there was no harm in telling the world that, I suppose, but I tell you there was this much harm in it.

The mere fact that the Minister admitted that he was, in fact, thinking of getting into the Department of Agriculture and trying his best to get there for 15 years is the best proof in the world that you should never have been allowed to get there.

I am afraid I do not follow that argument.

It is a Department into which a man goes — I will admit this — because his Party, having some knowledge of his capacity, say to him: "We are going to give you the Department of Agriculture." I look upon that in the same way as I would look upon a man getting a place on a team as a full-forward, a full-back, a centre field or a winger who must obey his captain.

I asked for the job.

The very fact that you asked for it——

The very fact that the Minister asked for it demonstrates to me clearly that you should never have been given it.

Thanks be to God, the Taoiseach did not take your view.

We have the Minister standing up here confronted with the problems that any man would have known would confront any Minister in that office. He goes down the country and meets the tomato growers, he sees them in his office, he meets the milk producers in regard to price, he meets the wheat growers and the beet growers and every time he is in a difficulty he trots out again the threat that he has trotted out for the last 12 months: "I can go back behind the counter; I was looking for this job for 15 years; I am the most underpaid man in the country." To my mind that is bravado. It is not the kind of argument in which a Minister should engage. I do not think reference should be made as to whether one is underpaid or overpaid. I think one should take the reins and do one's job to the best of one's ability. If my advice is taken, that would be the basis upon which we could ensure that the work would be satisfactorily done.

Oh, no. I would clamour again for a rise in my pay. I think I am worth it.(Interruptions.)

Order. Deputy Corry is interrupting too much.

I have covered nearly all the points that occurred to my mind to show the tremendous change that has taken place in the Minister's attitude but I shall refer to just one more — an advertisement which appeared away back in 1948. I think it was discussed in this House before. The Minister was about a month in office at the time but he was not nearly so co-operative as he is to-day. The high horse was in the yard and the Minister was in the saddle. It was a very peculiar advertisement, so peculiar that nothing like it had ever appeared in any of the papers of this country at any time since the State was established because it was signed "James M. Dillon, Minister for Agriculture" and it told the people of the things and the ways in which they could help the Government. "I believe co-operation," it said, "works better than compulsion; let us show them — James M. Dillon." At that time I thought that was the most disgraceful performance which any Minister could have given because it was indicative of the whole approach to the problem by the Minister. There was something mean about it; there was something terrifically low about it; there was something so challenging about it that it almost drove sensible people mad.

That is a remarkable confession.

But the strutting has died down now. We may now be able to think in terms of trying to understand, in a common way, the problems of agriculture. We shall have now perhaps an effort on the part of the Minister to enlist, as we had in his appeal to us in regard to some matters in which he is proposing now and in the future to interest himself and his Department, our co-operation. Costly and all as it has been, it is a wonderful source of satisfaction to us all to see that the change has taken place.

I remember coming to this House in the late spring of 1947. There was snow on the ground for weeks before and weeks after. I was asked by the then Opposition to come in here so that an explanation could be given and a discussion could take place on the whole question of our food supply position and the prospects for the year following. To tell the truth I was as nervous as any man could be. There were problems of all kinds confronting me in the Department, as they will confront any man who is ever there, every solid year, every solid month, every solid week, every solid day and every solid hour, if he is taking his work seriously.

May I gladly concede that 1947 was the worst year of all from the point of view of weather conditions?

I agree and I must say that I have rarely felt myself in such a position as I was then. There was, of course, as was natural, a tendency to be critical. I must admit that Deputies on all sides were fairly reasonable, in fact more reasonable than I had expected. I had a good deal to say in regard to the ploughing work that had been done, the work that remained to be done, the available machinery for doing that work, the fertiliser position, etc. On that occasion, if I wished, I could have been very sore with some members of the Opposition who were expressing great anxiety because of the fear they felt that we might not have enough to eat during the following year but it was not a time to try to take advantage of a political opponent or to try to score one over him, as I could have. There were Deputies in the Opposition then who were showing great concern and I could not help feeling that, if that concern had been shown some years earlier, we would have been in a much stronger position. We got through that year and, looking at the figures and thinking of the lateness of the season, I often feel amazed at how the farmers and landowners of the country accomplished the work which they did in that year.

After leaving this House I was obliged to go down the country to meet representatives of county committees of agriculture. Of course I had to make speeches. I made a few speeches that were harsh and wicked. I made a few speeches that interpreted, as truly as any man ever could, the things that were in his mind, speeches that were designed to bring home to farmers, who might be careless or selfish, that I was going to be merciless in my dealings with them, that I was going to regard myself and the Department as completely free, to go in and do that work, irrespective of what it was going to cost so as to ensure that the frightfulness of that winter and the ill effects that were sure to follow it, no matter what we did, would be reduced to a minimum. The achievement, as I say, was tremendous. The return from the crop which they put down was understandably poor. That was the year 1947. It was our last year in office. Here, now, we begin at this point of how that policy was treated by the present Government. I do not regard the present Minister as being entirely responsible for the things which have happened. There is no use in people in this House being unreasonable. I do not see why all the blame should be thrown upon the head of the Minister for Agriculture. Surely all the decisions that were made from the point at which I have now reached must have been the result of the collective wisdom of not 11 Ministers as we had in our time but of the 13 Ministers we have had for the past two and a half years. There is not a member of this House and certainly there is no Deputy who understands better than the Minister my reasons for behaving in 1947 as I was obliged to behave in order to ensure that our people would get enough. It is all right to talk about pigs and bacon, poultry, the cattle population. I am interested in these just as the Minister is interested in them and just as any Deputy in the House is interested in them. I have need to be interested in them.

In these bad times we had first of all to think of something that was even more important than these and, with regard to some of the speeches I was obliged to make in order to bring that fact home — not, now, that I am going to make this by way of complaint — in a few months' time these speeches that were delivered for the purpose of securing an end which was agreed to by everybody in this House were trotted out down the country and in this House to decry tillage, to prove that we were a Party which favoured compulsion, to prove that I wanted to be in every farmer's back yard and that I wanted to collect all the Gardaí and all the inspectors and bundle them in over the farmers' fences without consultation of any kind. They were trotted out to prove one thing that no Minister for Agriculture should ever attempt to do and he certainly should not attempt to prove it with such enthusiasm as the present occupant of that office has attempted to do so — to prove that the other fellow was wrong in everything he did. If we had had less of that enthusiasm in the past two and a half years not only in relation to agriculture but to national policy as well we would be much further on now. If, in relation to that advertisement which I have read out to the House, there had been a different approach, a different understanding, from the point of view of the occupant of the position of Minister for Agriculture, if, in fact, he really meant the words which he uttered when he said that the agricultural policy should not be reversed suddenly and that a new Minister for Agriculture should not behave like a bull in a china shop, why is it that that is exactly what he set out to do? If there is one piece of advice — it may not be very valuable advice — that I would give to any future Minister it is that he should not make it the principal aim in life, while he has that responsibility, to prove his predecessor wrong. He should realise that if his predecessor had had any brain or head at all he did not make a decision affecting any important matter without having considered it carefully. It would be far better for the community if the Minister would approach what his predecessor did in the belief that I have indicated here and proceed on the basis that there was a good reason for making the decision he might be tempted or invited to change.

Members of the Opposition are sometimes twitted in this House, as we have been to-day, by the Minister, for the part we played, as he alleges, in effecting certain changes that took place from year to year. With regard to that advertisement of 1948 which was issued a month after the Minister came into office, surely the Minister is conscious of the appeals which he made then to the farmers to grow potatoes and oats? They answered his call at the time. They neglected to grow wheat to a considerable extent and they increased the production of the produce for which he asked. I cannot genuinely understand the Minister's frame of mind when he makes, as he is free to make, any accusations he likes against members of the Opposition. Here is where I find myself. I am told in 1948 to grow potatoes. I grow them. The Minister makes a deal with the British Government to sell them 50,000 tons at a stated price. This price is held up to me as the price that I am going to get. There happens to be an abundant harvest in Britain and elsewhere. Our Minister for Agriculture only decides to press the British to keep the contract because he is pressed from other sources here that a contract when made should be kept. I believe that.

To what does the Deputy refer?

We finally induced him to compel the British to keep this contract for the sale of 50,000 tons of our 1948 crop.

To what does the Deputy refer?

I am going to complete this in my own way. There is no use in trying to lead me down the garden path because I am not going.

There are none so deaf as those who will not hear.

Who compelled what?

You, the Minister for Agriculture, in 1948, signed an agreement that I had largely negotiated when I was there for the sale of 50,000 tons of potatoes at a stated price. When it came to the harvesting of the crop that was already sold there was also, just as in this country, a very heavy crop in Britain. We here knew from your attitude as Minister for Agriculture that you were not inclined to ask the British to take these potatoes because you stated repeatedly that they were not wanted.

I suggest that if the Deputy would use the third person it would make for better harmony.

For harmony's sake, I will try.

The Deputy appears to be reporting something that I am not aware ever happened in this House.

These things did happen.

In this House?

Let me continue. The British did take the 50,000 tons of potatoes. That is the important part. They did not want all of them for human consumption and there was an arrangement whereby the quantity that they did not want would be taken by us at the price they were worth for conversion into industrial alcohol and the British would pay the balance. When the Minister for Agriculture accuses Deputies on these benches of contributing to a reduction in the potato acreage——

Where did the Deputy get that information?

I am very well informed. I have listened for the last three years to the Minister——

The Deputy seems to know an awful lot about potatoes.

——attributing to us the responsibility for what is taking place in regard to the potato acreage. I am not a very big grower but I grow some potatoes as best I can, as a farmer, and sell some. I think of myself trying to pick potatoes under this contract, trying to induce my men to pick them, trying to pick them to a standard that would satisfy the traders, trying to meet the traders who were always able to say: "We do not want any for the industrial alcohol factory to-day. There is only the Dublin market available and we will give you only £6." What I am telling the House is genuine. What I am telling this House is the truth. I am not trying to bluff anybody. I think of the accusations that were hurled against us as to our part in effecting a reduction in the acreage, and so on, not only in regard to the potatoes but in regard to other crops. I know how I was treated in 1948. I know how my neighbours were treated when they had potatoes to sell.

I know the protection that was afforded to them by those who should protect them and who should have seen that the price, even of £8, should be paid. As a matter of fact, in the main, they sold their potatoes that year at £6 although some potatoes which were sold at that price were sold for the purpose of the British contract. Not a finger was raised to protect them. Then we come to this House and the co-operation that is expected from us is to keep our mouths shut, never to speak a word, and to listen to the Minister for Agriculture lacerating us and telling Deputy Blaney about the sabotage in which he has been engaged and telling the Deputy from Tipperary and the Deputy from Kildare that it was their sabotage that brought about the change from 1948 to 1949.

In 1949 things were not good in the potato world. The Minister for Agriculture tried to justify the position by accusing us of sabotage. That is the reason why, as long as this thing is persisted in, there cannot be any degree of co-operation or understanding between the people in this House who are all interested in agriculture. I am sure my mind is not much different from the minds of most farmers. I was not influenced in 1949 by the fact that Deputy James Dillon was Minister for Agriculture as to whether I should grow potatoes or not. I would have grown potatoes in 1949 if they had paid me in 1948 and if I was reasonably certain that there would be a market for them in 1949. I did not care two hoots who was Minister for Agriculture. After the way in which we had been treated in 1948, the Minister for Agriculture speaking at Mountbellew on 29th September, 1949, said:

"You have been persuaded, I think most unfortunately, not to produce as much oats and potatoes as you did last year. We will be short of potatoes and oats this year and we will suffer from the lack of them next year."

"You have been persuaded." Who persuaded us not to grow the same quantity of oats and potatoes? It was the treatment that was meted out to us in the handling of the situation in regard to the 1948 crop that persuaded us. I have indicated the way in which the British contract for potatoes was handled. I have stated that only a very small percentage of that 50,000 tons purchased by the merchants was paid for at the rate of £8 or £8 5s. 0d. per ton. I have stated that most of the potatoes sold for that British contract, although the merchants could have paid that price, were sold at the Dublin market price of roughly £5 10s. 0d. to £6. I have shown that no effort was made by the Minister, that I could see, to protect the farmers who were so suffering.

What was the situation in the same year in regard to oats? There was a hullabaloo all over the country that there was no market for oats. That also was largely brought about by the Minister's loose talk as to the prospect of the availability of feeding stuffs at a cheap rate. The Minister would not agree to buy, there was no market and everything was in a state of chaos. Finally, the Minister went to America. He went to tell the world the few things that he knew that they did not know.

This all relates to two years ago.

What harm?

We are discussing the administration for the last calendar year.

The motion to refer back the Estimate widens the debate.

Let him fire away.

If a charge is being made that the attitude of certain members of this House is responsible for bringing about a certain result, apart altogether from the motion to refer back, I am entitled to place the responsibility on the shoulders of those who are responsible.

The motion to refer the Estimate back entitles the Deputy to proceed as he is proceeding. I am not interfering at present.

While the Minister was in America, some one of the team — I do not know what part of the team must get the credit for the purchase scheme announced before he came back —convinced the acting Minister that a scheme for the purchase of oats was desirable and that scheme was launched fairly and squarely. After it had been launched, the Minister arrived back. The man responsible for launching it was a wise man in a way because he knew it would not be taken too well by the Minister that such a thing should be done behind his back and he knew that the Minister for Agriculture was a man who was prone to talk and to talk freely and lucidly. When the acting Minister heard that the world had been sufficiently enlightened by our Minister for Agriculture at the meeting of F.A.O. in America and that the Minister was arriving at Shannon, he boarded the plane at Shannon to ensure that no Press man would get within earshot of the Minister, lest the beans should all be spilt. Just as in the case of the potatoes, the scheme was a hopeless scheme and a hopeless approach to the problem that existed at the time.

I do not own a great deal of land, but I have some, and I have always been accustomed to carrying out a fair share of tillage in proportion to what land I have. In 1949, I did not break a single acre of lea land. What would a Minister for Agriculture think of the farmer who, when promised maize meal at 20/- a cwt., would go out and slave, breaking his back and contracting rheumatism which bends him in two, in order to break up land while tillage was being scoffed at, while the horse was being scoffed at and while the plough was being scoffed at? We could think of nothing but mechanisation, as if we were in the prairies of America.

I do not want all the time to be lashing any man's back in regard to these matters, but I have sat here so often and listened to the charges levelled against members of this Party and to the accusations made that they were responsible for any change that took place from 1948 to 1949, that I feel I must speak of these things, when I think of the way in which we were treated and when I know how that treatment affected me as an individual and how indifferent I am as to whether that treatment comes to me from Deputy James Dillon, as Minister for Agriculture, or from any other Deputy who might occupy that post. It would not concern me in the least in 1949 if I were sure that I could have had some reasonable security in the disposal of my crop in whatever form I decided to dispose of it, if I were sure that I would have some protection from the man responsible for that Department and that I was not to be told that he was going to flood me out overnight, perhaps with cheap feeding stuffs, if it should so happen that I could not convert the crops I have grown into the sort of produce he was recommending to us. Even if I could, even if I could walk, run or jump it off the land, why should I produce and walk off the land bacon, pigs, butter, eggs and any other commodity by producing a crop the cost of producing which was going to be far higher than the cost at which I was told I could buy raw materials from the Minister in charge of the Department?

One of the major charges that can truthfully be levelled against this Government is the charge that they were far too industrious jointly, severally and collectively, in setting out to prove that their predecessors were wrong in everything. In no case has that attempt been more disastrous for our people — farmers of Fianna Fáil and every other political Party — than the attitude of this Government towards tillage. The Minister would have the House believe that this is a sort of religion with Fianna Fáil, that tillage is the be-all and end-all of everything. I never believed that and I never thought that. I do not believe it now, but I say that we would have been much better off now if this advertisement, in which all controls were withdrawn, had never appeared in March, 1948.

That advertisement asked: "Give us a bit of co-operation. Never mind the boys who wanted to compel you. They were only the Nosey Parkers who wanted to strut into your business. Show these fellows what we can do." We would be much better off now if the speeches had never been made to the poor fellow on a spring day trudging after a tired horse, with the clods of dried clay and perhaps stones getting into his boots, while he was told by the Minister that he was only a poor lout who knew nothing of the world about him and that there was a different way, a more progressive way, of doing things, that this was an enlightened age and that we should take advantage of it here. Every word that could be uttered that was wrong was uttered and every type of inducement, everything which those who addressed themselves to this subject suspected would appeal to the selfish interests of landowners on which they could lay their finger was put forward. What has it all secured for us and what is it likely to secure for us? We were not done with the shocks in agriculture in 1949. We are getting them still in 1950. We got one shock after we had been told by the Minister for Maize about maize prices. On the 29th September, he said: "This country was particularly fortunate that there would be no increase in the price of maize; he wanted to repeat that, with emphasis, as the Minister for Maize." We were coming on to 1950 and I suppose things were happening in the outside world about which he knew something, between the 29th September, 1949, and another date I will give later. Although things were happening in the outside world, we were not hearing of them and getting no hint of them until they had happened. It was hard for a Minister who had spoken so in Mountbellew on the 29th September, if the indications were that that was not the kind of prophecy he should have made. It takes a man a while to swallow words like these. He is always hoping that something will occur to make it unnecessary for him to do so. In this particular case, we did not hear a word about any change that had taken place, from the Minister for Maize, until some time about the 25th February.

There was an advertisement issued, telling farmers something about conditions outside and warning them as to what they should do for themselves, their families, their stock and so on. Then a number of advertisements was issued telling farmers about Ymer barley. The present Minister will always try to have something new, something about which nobody in the country knows anything. I was reading the speeches on his Estimate in 1948, I read his speech in 1949 and his speech on the agreement in 1948, and I read his speech on my Estimate in 1947. That is about all the reading I did and it was enough. Perhaps I should not have done it at all. Last year, in moving his Estimate he talked about contagious abortion, sterility, mastitis and stomach worms or fluke worm, a little about tuberculosis and he spoke learnedly on all these subjects. You see it is always a good thing to let everybody know that you are not depending on all the experts on your right, knowing they have it in their heads and that you know nothing; so it is well to read from these journals and documents to impress the public at large.

This year, when he decided to warn the people about the dangers of the falling off of food supplies for our animals in the Fall, he told them that if they were to play safe they would have to provide for all oats, potatoes and barley. Then two advertisements were issued in relation to Ymer barley. It may be the best type of barley in the world but anyone knowing the kind of mind that our farmers have knows they will not cotton on to anything they know little about until they have tried it for a while.

They cottoned on remarkably well.

Yes, but not to the extent that it should be necessary to single Weimar barley out as compared to the importance that should attach to oats or potatoes as feeding-stuff in the sense that the barley area is very small when compared to our potato growing area.

In 1949, after making the speech in Mountbellew telling us as Minister for Maize that we need have no fears, we never heard a single word about the position until the 25th February. What was the poor clodhopper to do with two lazy horses not too well fed, how was he to break additional lea ground from that period on? This is no lie. We have a lot of small farms and many ill-equipped farmers but there is no use in talking to them as if you can change that overnight. I saw some of these ill-equipped farmers as a result of the lateness of the warning they got, trying to break lea ground in the month of May. They were in the same position as that in which I found myself in 1949, that I would not break an additional acre of lea as long as there was an assurance from the Minister for Agriculture that I could get all the imported maize and feeding stuff at the prevailing price. Who would employ labour, in face of that assurance, to engage in tillage?

What is a farmer expected to be? A philanthropist who would employ labour and take upon himself the hardship and responsibility of breaking land with no assurance or protection when the crop is harvested? I say that something must have happened between the making of that statement at Mountbellew and the 25th February. Some knowledge must have come to the mind of the Minister for Agriculture, his Department or the Government that would enable the Minister to warn farmers of the dangers of the feeding-stuffs position before the 25th February. It was due to his futility, stupidity and anxiety to talk in a glamorous way. He did not want to swallow his words and he took a risk and lost. If it were only he that lost with his £1,520 a year it would not be so bad but people who have to live on a far smaller allowance than that have suffered and will suffer in the future because of it.

"Tillage policy""mixed farming"; this is how it is mixed, and this is where, I charge, the Government do not know where they stand. They have no attitude as a Government towards that problem. The reason for that is the reason I have given. The night before last the Evening Herald had a speech from the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach and to the Minister for Industry and Commerce urging upon farmers the necessity to grow wheat and to provide beet and conserve dollars. Can I not put this point? Is it not a fair one to put to members of the Dáil who support this Government and who can support it as long as they like, “until the cows come home” as the old expression has it, as far as I am concerned? Can you not get some clarification as between the attitude outlined by the Parliamentary Secretary two nights ago when he spoke to his constituents and advised farmers what they should do and told them how much it would save the community, this speech as an announcement of the policy of the present Government, with the present one?

Quote it.

After the Mountbellew speech things went wrong for the Minister for maize, but he was down in Cooley on the 8th February, and mind you he must have had some information on the 8th February because an advertisement appeared on the 25th February urging farmers to do certain things. He said:—

"Do not believe the nonsense about wheat. Grow barley or oats instead."

Will any Deputy opposite tell me——

The Deputy is purporting to quote me there and he is not.

I am quoting you from the newspapers of the day.

Give me the reference.

The 8th February, 1950.

What paper?

Both papers, the Independent and the Irish Press:

"Do not believe the nonsense about wheat. Grow barley or oats instead."

That is a wrong quotation by the paper.

It may be condensed to some extent.

The Deputy admits that he falsified that quotation.

No, that is the quotation.

On a point of order. The Deputy alleged that he quoted the Independent newspaper report of the 8th February. I have now convicted him of not so doing.

The Chair has no means of discovering what is in any newspaper.

Surely the Deputy is obliged to give a reference for anything he quotes?

The Deputy has made a quotation. He says that it is a quotation from two newspapers. The Minister says that it is not correct. The Chair has no means of deciding between the two statements, no means whatever.

At a meeting of Laois County Committee of Agriculture on the 18th February, after the Minister had announced an increase in the price of wheat, this is what he said:

"That does not mean that I have changed my mind regarding the growing of wheat."

These are exactly the words he used.

What is the quotation?

From the same newspapers on the 18th February, 1950.

In the metropolitan Press?

The Irish Press and the Independent.

What is the quotation?

The quotation is:

"That does not mean that I have changed my mind regarding the growing of wheat."

What "does not mean?"

The fact that the Minister had made some concession as to the price received by the growers.

Are you afraid to give it?

There is no use in quibbling. There is no use in trying to do what the Minister is doing, that is, trying to reduce this debate to the level of a debating society. We are talking of agriculture; we are talking about national matters. I do not want you to break up whatever semblance of unity you have or whatever method you have of keeping together, but I am asking — there are intelligent people opposite in the agricultural sense and in different senses—when Deputy Cosgrave, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach and to the Minister for Industry and Commerce, two nights ago made a speech regarding certain matters, where is the policy announced by the Minister for Agriculture in February at a time when he was using the resources of the Exchequer to advertise the growing of wheat and other crops and at the same time making speeches denouncing and regarding as foolish any such policy?

The Minister is responsible for statements he makes himself and for actions he himself does but you cannot say that he is responsible for statements made by anybody else.

We can talk in terms of national policy.

This is a motion to refer back the Estimate for the Department of Agriculture. The Minister for Agriculture is responsible for the actions of that Department. He is not responsible for the statements of any other person.

I was merely giving these quotations for the reason that I regard it, whatever other view may be possible——

You did not give the quotations.

—— as the duty of members of the Government, Parliamentary Secretaries or otherwise, to know what the policy of that Government is when they speak on matters of national policy. I merely referred to that speech to show what is an obvious inconsistency between what a member of the Government says regarding a very vital matter and what was stated by the Minister responsible.

The Minister is responsible for his own Department and for his own statements in respect of that Department.

And the Deputy has not quoted.

The Deputy may if he wishes raise that matter in another fashion but it cannot relevantly be raised on the Estimate for the Department for which the Minister for Agriculture is responsible.

I have made all the points I wanted to make and I sincerely invite any member of any Party supporting the Government to try to get some clarity into this simple matter as to what really is the policy of the Government in relation to the whole question of tillage and food production for both man and beast.

The Minister tried here this morning to justify the use of extravagant language in this way, that it often results in getting a sort of flair publicity, that whatever knowledge he thinks is contained in the statement he has made will get over to the widest possible public. There might be something in that, but here is what I object to, and it has reference again to this matter that I have been discussing at some length. I have told you of all the foolish things that were done, of all the incompetent acts of the Department of Agriculture and the Minister for Agriculture; I have told you of all the extravagant statements that have been made and the manner in which the Minister was prone to decry those farmers who were engaged in a simple way and were not well equipped to do their work. The Minister, speaking at a National Ploughing Association function — I think it was on 6th May — made a prophecy. It could be right, but it was a foolish one to make.

No man who knows the mentality of those to whom these words were mainly addressed, who knows their minds, would make such a statement. At least, this is my understanding of it, and it is a question then of whether I understand them worse or better than the Minister.

Look where I am and look where you are.

I am delighted with myself. Anyhow, I would never make that statement.

That is what has you as you are.

I would never make it, for the reason that I would know that a statement like that was bound to affect, maybe, a small farmer whose way of doing work and whose equipment would not be up to date. The Minister was pouring ridicule on the man who went out and took the plough in his hand, with horses — he regarded that as out of the question. The unfortunate part of it with this Minister is this, that, when you go to reason a matter of this kind with him, you find he drives you into the position of appearing that you want to stick on to something that is antiquated, something that is old. Because of my criticism of the sort of line he has taken on a number of occasions — and which I think was genuinely harmful — some other Deputy might follow me and say that I was still thinking of antiquated weapons.

I do not mind letting anybody see what is in my mind in relation to that matter, and let them whip me up and down the country as much as they like. The extent to which the Minister claims that mechanisation can be introduced on our farms within the next ten years is something I do not agree with. I think it is a bad thing, while doing everything that is reasonable to introduce whatever mechanisation is thought to be desirable and helpful and in the fashion, to start off and tell men who have nothing but ploughs to work with and who will have nothing else for years, that there will be no plough seen in this country in ten years' time except outside a museum.

Inside a museum.

It is "outside" I see here.

That is another quotation you got wrong. Read it out.

I will challenge you on this. At the National Ploughing Association function you said that ploughs will only be found in ten years' time outside museums.

You have got that wrong. Read it again. You have not got the right twist upon it.

Take your medicine now.

Deputy Smith knows now that he is not reading that quotation right, does he not?

That is what was published in the newspaper.

Deputy Smith knows it is not right. It is not a proper thing to misread a quotation.

Speaking at Ballyhaise, in my own county, the Minister gave us the assurance that compulsory tillage would never see the light of day in this country again, except in certain circumstances, and he told us that the people need have no fear, that there was a year's supply of wheat on hands. He also informed us that if ever there was to be compulsory tillage again, every farmer would know from him or his Department what exactly was the crop they would be called upon to grow. During the past week I put down a parliamentary question asking the Minister what progress he had made in the soil survey that would enable him to do as he had promised. I was given the assurance that the soil survey had been completed. I think it is not right that this House should, as I suspect it was — not only as I suspect, but as I am certain it was — be misled in that reply. No soil survey of the type has been made.

What do you mean?

What did you mean?

I asked you to come in and look at it.

I saw the survey before ever you were there.

Did you come in?

I merely mention this to invite Deputies to try to introduce some wee bit of order or stability into the minds of those who are determining agricultural policy. I do not want to have to listen to the charge being levelled that we, because of some campaign, as was stated by the Minister in Mountbellew, persuaded the farmers not to do so-and-so, when I know well we could not sell our potatoes or oats in 1948 and that in public statements the Minister told those of us who would be foolish enough to follow such a policy that he was going to swamp us in maize meal at £1 a barrel and, a year later, told us we need not be prepared to plough land in October, November and December because there would be no increase in the price of maize and there was, therefore, no need to plough additional land to provide for our stock.

I want to secure that there will be some degree of clarity in the mind of the Minister and in the minds of those who have to work on the land and that we will not be reduced to the sorry plight of having a Minister for Agriculture, who has been almost all his public life denouncing wheat, beet and peat, scrounging around through Leinster House looking for advice and assistance as to how the beet acreage could be increased. I move to report progress.

Progress reported; the Committee to sit again.
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