Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 14 Dec 1950

Vol. 123 No. 14

Committee on Finance. - Vote 22—Universities and Colleges.

Minister for Finance (Mr. McGilligan)

I move:—

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £190,000 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1951, for grants to Universities and Colleges (8 Edw. 7, c. 38; No. 42 of 1923; No. 32 of 1926; No. 35 of 1929; and No. 27 of 1934), including certain Grants-in-Aid.

Deputies will possibly remember that in the Budget statement of May of this year I mentioned a provision of £600,000 which I was making to meet Supplementary Estimates which I knew were likely to occur in the financial year 1950-51. I said that out of this sum I would have enough money to give additional financial assistance to university institutions, including Maynooth College.

I have expressed the view on many occasions in the past that the financial provision that had been made for university institutions was inadequate, to say the least of it. From the very start, in 1908, the provision for the National University and its constituent colleges has been distinctly on the meagre side. The result of this was that the colleges had been forced from time to time into debt that had to be liquidated by ad hoc provision for various years out of specially voted moneys. The annual grants were last increased in 1946. In the light of events, it must be agreed that the increased assistance then afforded has proved to be inadequate. Some of the colleges found themselves again in debt, due to the increased cost of running and to the increased expenses of maintenance. In some of these colleges the pension arrangements are insolvent and generally over the whole range of these institutions the level of remuneration of the academic staffs is below comparable standards. This condition of things is due partly to the war and the post-war depreciation in the value of money. Elsewhere, university emoluments have been increased considerably in recent years and, while I am far from suggesting that this country must follow or be able to follow the lead so given, one must recognise that the level of remuneration here has to be improved if we are to be anything like competitive; that is, if we are to be able to attract people of the calibre we want and not run the risk of losing the best of our academic personnel.

I would like to relate this, then, to the provisions that have been made since February, 1948. In 1948 this Government set out to meet the more urgent claims for improved conditions such as those of old age pensioners and later on we provided for increases in remuneration for the army, the police, teachers, civil servants and pensioners. As early as the year 1948, I said, and I have since then repeated more than once, that the Government intended to improve the financial position of university institutions. The statement in the Budget speech this year in that regard was an indication that at last I was in a position to fulfil the promise I had made in earlier years.

Prior to May, 1950, I had received claims from those who are now to benefit, and since that date discussions have taken place with representatives of the various bodies concerned. As a result, I propose to provide an extra £200,000 a year for universities and colleges. This additional subvention should enable the colleges to put and maintain their finances in equilibrium, to improve their standards of remuneration and to put something extra into their pension funds. The provision now being proposed should enable them also, while avoiding recurring debt, to write off their existing debt over a period of years and still leave some balance for contingencies such as the renewal of equipment and certain minor expansion.

In the Estimate before the House I am asking for only £190,000. The balance, the sum of £10,000, will be provided in another Supplementary Estimate. I may as well state now that that £10,000 will be divided as to £6,000 in respect of the faculty of Agriculture in U.C.D., and £4,000 in respect of the faculty of Dairy Science in University College, Cork. This sum of £10,000 will come up in a Supplementary Estimate which the Minister for Agriculture will present to the House at a later stage, in respect of the Vote for Agriculture. On that Vote the existing grants for these two faculties—Agriculture in Dublin and Dairy Science in Cork—are borne.

I should say, by the way, that I do not regard that division of this £200,000, segregating £10,000 only to the matters that are borne on the Vote for Agriculture, as a specially accurate division and the division of the moneys now voted may, for the next financial year, be changed to some degree when the Estimates are before the House. I would like the Dáil, at this stage, to realise that, although I am only asking for £190,000 on this particular supplemental, the full tot that I have in discussions more or less agreed—at least, I have indicated my view without getting complete agreement—will be, not £190,000 but £200,000, the £10,000 to be provided in the way I have described. The manner in which the £190,000 will be distributed amongst the various institutions concerned is set out in Part III of the Estimate. Deputies will notice that the sum of £15,000 is provided, for the first time, for the purpose of secular education in Maynooth.

Mr. Derrig

I hope the Minister will take the opportunity to let the House know whether the total commitments that he envisages exceed the figure of £200,000; in other words, whether there are other plans in contemplation for which further sums of money will be required.

In connection with the Supplementary Estimate, the Minister referred to the provision that he was making for institutions. May we take it that the only institutions that the Minister has in mind are those mentioned in the Supplementary Estimate? Could the Minister answer that question?

Mr. McGilligan

The only ones, yes. I do not know what the Deputy means. What others are there?

Mr. Derrig

There are the institutions of science and art, for example.

Mr. McGilligan

That is a different Vote, surely.

Mr. Derrig

There is the new agricultural institute.

Mr. McGilligan

That is an entirely different matter. Leave that to the new financial year.

Mr. Derrig

The rate of expenditure on university education and the services upon which the money is being spent, naturally, would colour one's judgment in forming an opinion on the proposed expenditure. The Minister has referred to the fact that, so far as the staffs are concerned, their remuneration is below comparable standards—I take it, in great Britain and other countries. Perhaps when the Minister is replying, for the benefit of those who are not as familiar with the set-up of the university as he is, he would enlighten the House, and I would suggest that, even in connection with the present Supplementary Estimate, Deputies might like to know the numbers of staff affected and to have some idea of the remuneration of the professors, lecturers and assistants.

A very large increase in the grant for the general purposes of University College, Dublin, seems to be envisaged. That has increased, I think, by £104,000. I take it that that is connected with the big increase in the number of students. The House knows that there are about 3,000 students there and that it was originally intended that there should be provision for about 1,000. In that connection, Deputies will have views as to the value of university education by having regard to the courses which the students are following.

I wonder would it be possible for the Minister to let us know—perhaps it is not available to him at the moment, but I think it would be useful for the House and the country to know—the numbers of students in the different faculties? We have an idea of the total number, but as regards the numbers in the different faculties, that is a matter in which I think Deputies generally would be interested. I think the total expenditure on universities and colleges before the war was about £160,000, roughly, and if the Supplementary Estimate brings the expenditure up to £480,000 or £490,000, it will appear that there is a threefold increase in the expenditure. I know allowance has to be made for the new grants for Trinity College and for Maynooth College which were not there in prewar times, but one would like to know whether the increase is really proportionate to the numbers of students solely, or whether, in fact, the number of students has outgrown that increase in expenditure and that, in addition, you have the other problems which must necessarily arise from having such a huge number of students.

I think the country would be interested to know whether there are plans in contemplation for providing additional accommodation. Since the public, and, indeed, the members of the Dáil, are not in a position to assess the value of the work—and it is difficult to see what machinery could be set up to assess the value of a university, particularly one described as a national university—it is not easy for Deputies to approach a discussion of this matter in an informed way. There is really no report available, I think, of any body which would enable them to come to a conclusion upon matters affecting the university in which they would be interested.

The Minister has not told us what the demands made upon him by the university, if such demands have been made, amount to, or what the universities themselves have in contemplation. In this matter the Department of Finance has to act as broker between the taxpayer and the university, and while the Minister and his officers are very well acquainted with the position, thoroughly familiar with it, that is not the position with members of the Dáil upon whom rests the responsibility for voting this money.

In any event, I think it is generally agreed that the modern view is that a university is more or less a group of professional technical schools for the training of doctors, lawyers, engineers and teachers, and I think that is more and more the position. Formerly the idea was that the university was a centre to which people of leisure and with certain wealth were able to go and there they found what was traditionally known as a liberal education. The position is that owing to the stress of modern conditions, and for various other reasons into which we need not now enter, the pressure has been more and more upon the university to serve a more immediately practical purpose. One aspect of this question that we must keep particularly in mind is that while catering for those more immediate practical matters the fundamental question, such as the spiritual values and the traditional cultural values which we want to preserve, should not be neglected; rather should they be developed in every way possible in so far as it lies within the sphere of the university to develop them, preserve them and strengthen these bonds with the past.

I think it is generally recognised that education, in so far as we in these countries understand education, must be the custodian of the spiritual values of the past and it is all the more necessary, I think, that that should be emphasised when these values are being rejected or ignored. The atmosphere and the general influence of the staff in the university has an incalculable, imponderable influence upon the students and there has been a certain doubt whether certain of the colleges are playing the part that we would like in maintaining that sense of the historical continuity of Irish culture, and are maintaining those links with the past which we all wish should be maintained.

It used to be claimed of a university that one of its functions was to produce an élite of cultured persons who would act as a sort of leaven in the general mass and who, with their cultural background and their general training in, let us say, philosophy and such matters, would not alone raise the cultural standard and preserve and strengthen, as I have said, what we have got through our ancestors and what we in our turn hope to pass on to those who come after us, but would also mean that a certain responsibility would rest upon the university in producing leaders of opinion. We need only look at the problems of modern democracy to realise the very great responsibilities which leaders of public opinion have thrust upon them at the present time. It is obviously necessary that they should be fully equipped to undertake these responsibilities.

The secondary schools in this country have so far been the main basis or fountain of culture for the people generally. Only a certain proportion of students pass on to the universities. There their time is very largely occupied in pursuing courses which they hope will secure degrees for them in the professional schools or otherwise and enable them to earn a livelihood as quickly as possible. It is doubtful if, in the present set-up of the universities, there is sufficient time to give that attention to the cultural side which, I think, all who have studied the university question from the point of view of western culture would wish and there is no doubt that at the present time more emphasis should be placed upon these aspects of university education than ever before.

There have been doubts expressed elsewhere as to whether graduates in certain branches of science should carry very high degrees and have a specialised knowledge, have that broad foundation, that philosophical foundation one might call it, that enables them to exercise standards of judgment that would be in consonance with the specialised knowledge and the eminence that they have acquired in the technical sphere. The secondary schools have done a great amount of work for the Irish language, and many of them have acted as pioneers in the teaching of subjects through Irish from the beginning, under the previous Administration, in the campaign for the restoration of the language, and they have taken upon themselves the heavy burden of doing their entire work through Irish. That meant that their teachers had to make up the subjects—there were no textbooks available—and had to teach such subjects as classics, mathematics and history through Irish. That was away back in 1923 or 1924. One wonders if anything corresponding to the progress that has been made in secondary education has been made in the sphere of university education.

The college in Galway was specially endowed by the Government of which the Minister was then a member to give special attention to Irish. It was recognised that by virtue of its situation and its opportunities it was able to do special work for the language. I do not think, however, that it was considered that advances in the teaching of Irish, making the language a medium capable of being used in instruction in higher educational centres, should be confined to University College, Galway. I think there is a responsibility on the other constituent colleges of the National University, and I am certain that those of us interested in the Irish language—and I think few in this House are not interested—wish to see them fostering it and enabling it to be taught.

I know there are difficulties in the way, but no one would grudge further endowments to enable that to be done. I see the difficulty that a great deal of the work of the university is taken up with the professional schools. I see the difficulty of introducing Irish as a medium of instruction in these professional courses, except gradually. However, we are entitled to claim that this institution—about which, when it was established, there was such a furore on the question of compulsory Irish for its entrance examination— should make a greater advance if they accept the position which has been laid down as national policy and State policy, that it is our object to revive the Irish language as the spoken tongue of the Irish people.

We are entitled to ask whether the National University has done the share of the work it might have been expected to do in that connection. I do not wish to indulge in any carping criticism, though I am bound to say that there is a feeling amongst a large number of people who are interested in the revival and who have worked to that end over a long period of years, that there seems to be a certain hostility to it. I hope that I am wrong —or rather that those who have that belief are wrong—but certainly there is such a feeling, from the criticisms that have emerged from time to time from some of those now charged with the responsibility of university education, and they have laid themselves open to the charge that they were not friendly to developments in connection with Irish.

I intend to say before I finish that if there were a method or an agency like the University Grants Committee in England—which examines this question apart from politics—I have no doubt whatever that it might easily recommend larger sums than the Minister is asking for at present. We have no such body and therefore Deputies can only give certain views within their experience and their impressions. There certainly must be a feeling amongst those who have passed from the secondary schools into the university that there is not that personal contact with the student which is characteristic of the secondary school. In a great many universities that is overcome by the tutorial system.

I do not know whether the university have in mind the provision of suitable hostels, seeing that accommodation is very difficult to secure in this city at present, but it should be attended to. If that were done, I think it could be arranged that, with the erection of these hostels and their maintenance by the university, if there are difficulties in extending the use of Irish in the colleges, then in these hostels, particularly if the tutorial system were introduced, more could be done to popularise the use of Irish amongst the students and the staff. The smaller colleges have the advantage of personal contact to some degree, but here in Dublin with the very large number of students and the numbers in some of the classes, it must be very difficult for the professor to have that personal relationship with the individual student which we would like to see.

Then there is the general question of technology, if the trend is to be towards increasing the provision for instruction in the sciences, whether separate provision will not have to be made in the long run. The old College of Science was taken over by the National University and it was the opinion of those who had gone through that college that the courses given in the old college were more practical and suited better the ordinary pass degreeman. Of course, the numbers were much smaller, there was ample provision for laboratory work, the day was pretty full and the applied sciences were given very special attention. I quite understand that a great deal will have to be done in one way or another, whatever is done eventually, to provide for research and facilities for scientific teaching. But if University College, Dublin, is getting so large that accommodation cannot be provided for it, will the question of setting up separate schools or, perhaps, separate technological institutes not arise?

It is only fair to say that in England, where very special attention is being given to this question of the training of scientific manpower, quite recently it was the intention that the technical colleges should be placed in a position that the student who completed his course through these colleges and who had, in addition, very often the advantage of actual experience working in industry, perhaps, over a period of years, should not be placed in an inferior position, as regards his final qualifications with the university graduates, and, if I understand the matter, it seems to be in contemplation that some type of degree or diploma, roughly equivalent to that awarded at the end of the university course in the same subjects, will be given. That means, of course, that there will be an enormous increase in the number of school personnel who will be capable of undertaking positions of responsibility. One wonders whether, in the present situation, you can have that contact with industry, that intimate contact, if the professors and staff have so much of their time taken up with teaching these large classes and if they have to give attention to pure research in their own spheres.

I do not think I have anything further to add, except, perhaps, to remind the Minister that, as well as the staff, there are the students and is it not time that the State should consider awarding scholarships? We have the county council scholarships and corporation scholarships to the universities, but if we are to be guided by the analogy of Great Britain, where they say that no more than one-fifth of the best brains of the country reach the university—and they are quite confident that by duplicating the numbers, they can even raise the standard, we should make some such provision. That may not be quite the position with us, but few will gainsay that there must be very good brains indeed, who have, perhaps, just failed to secure the scholarship. In Great Britain they have a means test. If there were to be a means test, I think there should be very substantial margins. I think the English Government took over the responsibility for the scholarships that had been awarded by the county councils and left them to give the scholarships, as far as I understand, to the next best. That was possibly part of a drive peculiar to Great Britain, to build the greatest numbers in this scientific manpower campaign possible. I, for one, at any rate, giving my own opinion in this matter, believe that the State should give more in the way of scholarships and should throw them open, as far as possible, to the best boys and girls in the State.

The tendency is to underpay undoubtedly those who are engaged in the educational profession as compared with their confreres, those of equal qualifications in other walks of life. If we are interested in scholarship and if we place a value upon it, undoubtedly we will have to be prepared either to establish fellowships or adopt some other method by which matters like Celtic scholarship or special work in connection with the Irish language, if it cannot be provided for elsewhere through the ordinary channels of the university, will certainly be placed in a position that it cannot be said, as is being said so freely at present, that it is either being ignored or neglected.

Conchubhair Ó Liatháin

Tá a lán den mhéid a bhí le rá agam i dtaobh an Fó-Meastacháin seo ráite cheana féin ag an Teachta Ó Deirg. Nior mhaith liom-sa chur i gcoinne an Fo-Meastacháin so cé go gcreidim go mbeadh leathscéal mhaith agam dá gcinnfinn ar a leithéid a dhéanamh. Ba bhreagh liom an cheist seo do phlé i nGaeilge ar fad ach nilim chun é dhéanamh de bhri nach bhfuil Gaeilge a dhoithin ag an Aire. Deputy Derrig availed of the opportunity presented by the introduction by the Minister of this Supplementary Estimate to conduct a general survey of the position of university education in Ireland. I do not know whether this is the most suitable occasion to avail of for such a survey. If Deputy Derrig intended to survey the position generally, I would like if he had surveyed it, in greater detail and if we had also heard the Minister in greater detail. In my view the introduction of a supplementary estimate is not the best occasion to undertake such an over-all survey.

I would be loath to oppose this Supplementary Estimate, but were I to do so—and let me set the Minister's mind at rest, I am not going to be the sole individual in the House seeking to have this Supplementary Estimate referred back—I fancy that I would find in the proceedings of this House adequate justification for such a course of action.

The Minister is asking the Dáil to vote a sum of £190,000, £104,000 of which is for expenditure in connection with University College, Dublin, mainly or largely, I take it from a portion of the Minister's opening speech which I heard, in respect of increased remuneration for the professorial and other staffs attached to that institution.

Mr. McGilligan

That is very far from being the case. In connection with University College, Dublin, they have a very bad situation in regard to the pension fund. In fact, the greater part of the money will go to the remaking of the pension fund and to help them to liquidate the debt that has accrued.

Mr. C. Lehane

A portion—I will put it no further than that—of the sum of £104,000 which the Minister is asking the House to vote is to be expended in ease of the professorial and other staffs of University College, Dublin. Nobody in this House, I am sure, would begrudge any such expenditure, but I would remind Deputies of the position which obtained here some 18 months ago, when the Academic Council of University College, Dublin, took up and maintained for quite a lengthy period an attitude that they were not prepared to accord to pupils of secondary schools who had received their instruction in subjects such as mathematics and physics through the medium of Irish, examination facilities for entrance scholarships in that language. If it is the national policy to revive Irish as the spoken language of the people, we cannot afford, no matter what degree of autonomy is claimed for universities, to have them lagging behind the national advance. If Irish is to be successfully revived, if it is to become once more the vernacular of our people, then, I believe that Deputies here and the people as a whole are entitled to expect that the spearhead of the drive for the revival of Irish as our spoken language will be our universities.

We had a position wherein the authorities of University College, Dublin, refused to accord reasonable facilities for the examination of certain classes of scholarship students in Irish, students who had been taught the subjects in respect of which they were to be examined through the medium of that language. That, to my mind, was an indefensible and completely unjustifiable position for the authorities of University College, Dublin, to adopt, and I want to take this opportunity of so characterising it. Although I attempted on many occasions to raise the matter in the House, I was prevented from doing so by the rules of order.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The same rules of order apply now.

Mr. C. Lehane

With great respect, Sir, we are now discussing whether this House should vote £190,000 including a sum of £104,000 to University College, Dublin.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

An autonomous body.

Mr. C. Lehane

Surely, whether a body be autonomous or not, this House, before voting money to that body, is entitled to have regard to the manner in which that body exercises its functions, to have regard to the extent to which that body fits into the over-all national picture. When I was precluded from raising the matter on the previous occasions on which I attempted to raise it, I was told that I possibly would have an opportunity on the Estimates or on the introduction of a Supplementary Estimate such as this. I do not want to pursue it, but I submit—it may be of purely academic interest—that this is the one occasion on which I am entitled to discuss it.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We will leave it at that.

Mr. C. Lehane

We arrived at a position where, due to factors which I am not in a position to isolate for the House or to indicate to the House, that that reactionary and recalcitrant attitude was abandoned by the authorities of University College, Dublin.

There is a further matter in respect of which we may charge against the authorities of University College, Dublin, that the lag behind in a matter of national policy still remains, that is, the question of the imparting of instruction through the medium of Irish. It surely is a matter for comment that University College, Dublin, a constituent college of what is called the National University, should adopt a more retrograde attitude than is adopted by the Elizabethan foundation in College Green. Surely it is a matter for comment on this Estimate that, whereas there was a refusal by the authorities of University College, Dublin, to accord facilities for instruction through Irish in that institution, there were actually, as I learned to my surprise very recently, inducements offered in Trinity College to students to pursue courses of lectures in mathematics and other subjects through Irish—substantial inducements by way of reduced fees.

I have told the Minister and I am telling the House that I do not propose to move that this Supplementary Estimate be referred back, but I think I am entitled to draw the Minister's attention to these matters and to say, through him, to any people on the academic council or in authority in University College, Dublin, who do not realise the rôle which the people expect the universities to play in the national advance that they will have again to come to this House asking that the people's money be voted to continue their maintenance, and that the line followed by me and, I am sure, by other Deputies to-day, of not opposing this Supplementary Estimate is not necessarily the line which will be followed on some future occasion.

There is one further matter to which I think I am entitled to refer. A certain Irish periodical, Comhar, published by people associated with the university and by students of the university—a very excellent and wellproduced periodical, which I am sure very many Deputies have seen—was trenchantly vocal on this question of teaching through Irish and the failure to provide Irish examinations for scholarship examinees. A dictatorial attitude was taken up by the authorities of University College, Dublin, and that periodical was banned. Although the aim which Comhar sought to achieve, the provision of Irish examinations for scholarship entrants, was achieved, and although their claim was in fact admitted as just by the University College, Dublin, authorities, nevertheless, that ban on an Irish language publication, a publication incidentally subsidised by portion of the money voted by this House to the Department of Education, still obtains in University College, Dublin.

The Minister may regard that as a small matter beneath Olympian ministerial notice. Perhaps it is. But to some of us, at any rate, it indicates, as Deputy Derrig mentioned—not in any sharp way; I would have been inclined to underline it a bit more sharply myself—an attitude of hostility to Irish and to the friends of Irish among those in control and in authority in University College, Dublin. I am not opposing this vote. I am not asking that it be referred back, but I think I am perfectly entitled to sound a note of warning and to say to those in authority either on the academic council or elsewhere in University College that this House and the people of this country will not tolerate a continued attitude either of antipathy or apathy to the Irish language or its revival as the spoken language of the people.

I feel that this is probably not the time for a full-dress debate on the wider field of university education. Deputy Derrig did, however, make one reference to-night which commended itself to me when he spoke of the provision of hostel facilities for students. I do not know to what extent the Minister can influence the policy of the body or bodies to whom he is asking us to vote this money, but in so far as he can influence that policy I would ask him to bear in mind the desirability and necessity of the provision of hostel facilities for students. The whole idea of a university is, to my mind, bound up with the residential system. If a university is to be more than merely a technological institute then it must be a living body of students grouped round their professors, a living organism rather than a mechanics institute.

Reference was also made to the desirability of a proper philosophical foundation. As far as our universities are concerned, I am afraid they have become far more closely related to the American idea of technological institutes than to the continental idea of a real university. Were I to urge an aim upon the Minister, I would urge upon him that we should strive to achieve a condition of affairs such as exists in some of the Scandinavian countries where the farmer's son goes to the university not merely to do a degree in agricultural science but for the purpose of acquiring a liberal education and being able to meet life and its problems with a full and well-nourished mind.

I would like to impress on the Minister that if I have not sought the support of Deputies to have this Supplementary Estimate referred back, it is merely because I feel that my action might be misinterpreted and I might perhaps do more harm than good. But I would like the Minister to take serious note of the fact that there are Deputies in this House who will not willingly vote money to University College, Dublin, or any other college of the National University or any other university if those institutions continue to pursue a policy consistently hostile to the revival of Irish.

Mr. Aiken

The Minister was very brief indeed in his introductory remarks on this Supplementary Estimate and he gave the Dáil very little information as to why he was presenting it at all. He gave no information as to what influenced him to divide this sum in these proportions between the various colleges and educational establishments. University College, Dublin, is getting, roughly, 83 per cent. more in this Supplementary Estimate than it got in the original Estimate for this year; Cork is getting, roughly, 74 per cent.; Galway, roughly, 37 per cent., and Trinity about 27 per cent. The Minister has not told the House why the grant to University College, Dublin, has been increased by 83 per cent. while the grant to Galway has been increased by only 37 per cent.

The people in the country who take an intelligent interest in public affairs are anxious that all our educational establishments will be properly endowed, and they are also anxious that these endowments will be devoted to the generally accepted national purposes of Irish education. As Deputy Lehane pointed out, there are some university professors who were very vocal in the argument about scholarship examinations through the medium of Irish, and a lot of people suspect that they are not only indifferent but actually hostile to the Irish language. I think it should be a matter of honour for Irish university professors endowed by an Irish Government out of the pockets of Irish people to take cognisance of the fact that Irish is the first official language of the land. I think they are bound in honour to do all they can to support the restoration of the Irish language as the spoken language of the people. We all realise how difficult it is, in a college like University College, Dublin, to have all the textbooks and lectures in the Irish language. Nevertheless, progress can be made in that direction and progress has been made in that direction in University College, Galway. We have the situation there where a number of the subjects can be done and a number of degrees can be taken out through the medium of the Irish language. I think it was a disgrace —a disgrace from a human as well as a national point of view—that even for a time, the academic council should have refused to present examination papers in Irish to those seeking scholarships, who had done their secondary and primary education through the medium of Irish. It was most unjust to the students concerned and it was unforgivable from the point of view of the Irish language itself.

In his concluding remarks, the Minister might tell us the justification for giving 83 per cent. to University College, Dublin, and only 37 per cent. to University College, Galway; 74 per cent. to University College, Cork, and 27 per cent. to Trinity College, Dublin. The Minister must have acted on some basis when making the division, and we should like to know what the reasons were for the division.

Deputy Lehane referred to the fact that our universities are autonomous bodies. We all want them to be autonomous bodies but, at the same time, we want them to carry out the duties they are in honour bound to carry out by the Irish language and by the Irish people. Deputy Lehane wanted to know how we are to find out what the universities are doing. If the Minister wanted to find out what the universities are doing he could appoint visitors and have a report published. I think it is a matter which should be considered but, rather than have visitors going into these colleges, I think it would be much better if the colleges themselves were to appoint their own visitors—a small committee of professors or a composite committee consisting of professors, lecturers and, perhaps, even some students and old students—to examine the possibility of carrying out a proper Irish programme in the universities. I believe that if that matter were approached in that way a lot of good work could be done. The Government can appoint visitors and the result will be largely to condemn. Nobody wants to destroy the public respect for our university professors by a policy of condemnation. All of us would much prefer, I think, that the universities would take this job on their own shoulders, realise that they are in honour and in duty bound to act in accordance with the Constitution—Irish being the first official language—and that we would be in a position to commend them and to give them more money, if more money would facilitate them in carrying out their work.

Deputy Lehane referred also to an incident in University College, Dublin, which, I think, brought no credit upon the president of the college. The president of the college was responsible for the censorship of An Comhar. I remember that when he himself was a member of this House he used to be very vocal indeed against censorship of all kinds. I was rather amused to see that he could not take it himself when a few of the students made a criticism upon a matter on which, he had to agree afterwards, the criticism was just. It is ridiculous that that prohibition on or censorship of An Comhar should continue. The paper should be allowed—as it is the only students' paper in the Irish language—to circulate and to be sold freely within the college boundaries.

When the Minister is concluding I hope he will give us more information as to the basis upon which the division was made between the various colleges and also some little information as to the division in each of the colleges towards the various matters to which he referred—the proportion that is going to debt, equipment and expansion in the various colleges and the proportion that is going to extra salary increases, and, in regard to salary increases, details as to the proportion that is going to the various grades of professors and lecturers and so forth. The professors themselves largely control the distribution, I think, of the college grants. It would be a good thing for the people to know in what manner they have carried out that work. This sum is a large increase over the original provision this year. I do not think anybody in the country would object to paying it, or even more, if they were assured they were going to get value for their money in increased facilities for the education of Irish children in the way in which they should be educated, namely, an education that is suitable for Irish children who live in Ireland.

Captain Cowan

I want to say just a few words in regard to the Supplementary Estimate, which is for a substantial sum. University education is a very vital part of national education. The time has come when some consideration must be given to the problem of whether universities are to be autonomous bodies or whether they are to be subject to the Parliament of the country. They are in a strange position in that they are independent. I cannot say very much about them but at the present time we are asked, and to a large extent obliged, to contribute to our local authorities and to the central Exchequer very substantial sums for their maintenance. As Deputy Aiken has put it, I think most people would agree that it might be better that they should retain their autonomous position, but if they are to retain that autonomous position there is a duty upon them to act in accordance with the national interest. If they do not act in accordance with the national interest or if they act contrary to the national interest I feel that, from the public point of view, it may be necessary to deprive these universities of their autonomous position. I think everyone will agree with the very reasonable line of constructive criticism that we had here this evening from Deputy Derrig and Deputy Lehane in regard to universities.

I sincerely hope that the powers that be, and are, in the universities will take a note of warning from the expressions that have been voiced here this evening. If they do not do that, then, clearly, they will be endangering the position of independence which the universities have at the moment, and if that position ends it will be through their actions, rather than through any desire on the part of this House, that it will be brought about. Now, in this age and in this year, it certainly is a serious reflection that in any college or educational institution, much less a university, there should be a ban, a presidential ban, on a paper because that paper contained criticisms by the students of the administration of the university. There is something radically wrong there; there is something there that cannot be supported; there is something there, also, in conflict with one's ideas of what university education ought to be, and so I hope that what was said here this evening will result in the withdrawal of that dictatorial and tyrannical ban on the organ or journal referred to.

Reference has been made to the problem of accommodation for students. I think that is an important matter. More than half the value of university training goes and is lost if the students are not kept together as long as possible. It is my opinion that minds are enlarged by proper contacts and discussions over a wide variety of topics, and that is impossible in a situation where, when the lecture or instruction is over, the students have to clear off to digs here, there and everywhere in the city. I, for one, will agree that that is not a satisfactory system on which to run a National University. It may be that, to correct that, substantial sums of money would require to be provided by the Exchequer. I do not think anyone would object to that, provided the university authorities carry out what may be described as the national policy in regard to education. However, I have no intention of going into that matter in greater detail, or of entering into other matters. I have simply spoken for the purpose of supporting the warning that has been given here this evening by Deputies to the authorities of University College, that if they do not change and take their proper place in national matters, then they cannot complain if this House deprives them of their independence and their autonomy.

Éamon Ó Cíosáin

Deontas-i-gcabhair is ea é seo do na coláistí ollscoile agus b'fhéidir go bhfuil sé i gceist an féidir aon chur síos a dhéanamh ar an obair atá ar siúil sna coláistí sin maidir le haibheochaint na Gaeilge. Bíonn daoine ag gearán ná tugtar an áit is dual don teangain iontu, go dtéann an obair a déantar sna scoileanna idir-mheánacha i bhfuaire iontu. Tá dhá cheist le hinniúchadh, is dóigh liom. An féidirníos mó ábhair léachtaí a thabhairt as Gaeilge agus an féídir labhaírt na Gaeilge i gcoitinne a chur ar aghaidh i measc na scoláirí.

Maidir leis an gcéad cheist: léachtaí a thabhairt dóibh seo a bhíonn ag staidéar chun céim ollscoile a bhaint amach agus gairm bheatha a sholáthar dá réir sin, ba bhreá an rud é dá bhféadfaí an Ghaeilge d'úsáid mar úírlís chuige, ach tuígím gurb é an deacracht is mó atá ann ná fuil téacsanna oíriúnacha nó ná fuil téacsanna ann in aonchor ina chóír sín. Tá sé i gceíst mar sin an féidir na téacsanna atá riachtanach a chur ar fáil taobh istígh d'achar reasúnta aimsire. Dá mbeadh na hollúna a thugann léachtaí uathu oilte agus fonnmhar chun léachtaí a thabhairt do na mic léinn as Gaeilge ar na healaí a bhaíneann leis na gairmí ollscoile, is ar éigin ba leor san gan na téacsanna a bheith ag na mic léinn chomh maith agus iad ar aon-dul leis na léachtaí a thugann na hollúna agus na léachtóirí dóibh. Is baolach go ndéanann a lán daoine a bhíonn ag tromaíocht ar na coláistí ollscoile dearmhad air sin. B'fhéidir nár miste mar sin a chur mar chúram ar dhream éigin eolgasach ar na cúrsaí a bhaineann leis na coláistí ollscoile taighde a a dhéanamh féachaint an féidir téacsanna oiriúnacha a chur le chéile a thabharfadh an oiread eolais do na mic léinn na ar brainsí ealáion a bhíonn uathu is a gheibheann siad de bharr na n-ábharsan a bheith á ndéanamh acu as Béarla. Ina theannta san, níor mhór do na hollúna a bheith lán-oilte ar an dteagasc a thabhairt chomh maith. Ceist an-mhór agus an-doimhin is ea í sin na daoine sin a bhíonn ag tromaíocht ar na coláistí ollscoile gan an deacracht mór san a thabhairt faoi ndeara is mó díobháil ná maitheas a dhéanann siad, im thuairimse.

Bíonn a lán téarmaí in úsáid ag lucht foghlama sna coláistí ollscoile ná fuil le fáil fós sa Ghaeilge, ach ba cheart dul i mbun na téarmaíochta gan mhoill agus dul i gcomhairle le lucht stiúrtha na hollscoile i dtaobh na ceiste sin.

Ach taobh amuich de na léachtaí, tá rud eile atá níos tábhachtaí agus is é sin labhairt na Gaeilge a chur chun cinn i measc na scoláirí agus an sprid cheart Ghaelach a bhunú ina measc. Sin í an ithir na bhfásfaidh planda na teangan agus ba lag agus ba lom an iarracht againn é da mba in nGaeilge a thabharfaí na léachtaí agus an gnáthchomhradh a bheith ar i mBéarla. Ceist spride agus ónóra is mó atá ag baint le haibheochaint na Gaeilge, is cuma cad iad na scoileanna nó na coláistí atá i gceist againn. Go deimhin, ba cheart féachaint chuige ná cuirfear an abair atá á dhéanamh sna scoileanna agus na coláistí ar neamhní maidir leo seo a théann go dtí an Iolscoil. Ach ní ceart ar a shon san baint den údarás atá ag lucht stiúrtha na hollscoile, ach dul i gcomhairle leo maidir le ceist mhór seo na Gaeilge sna coláistí ollscoile. Rud eile bh'fheidir nár mhiste dhúinn féin, lucht an Oireachtais, deá-shompla a thabhairt uainn féin maidir le labhairt na Gaeilge. Dá ndéanaimis amhlaidh, is treise go mór a bheimis. Is breá an rud é do dhuine milleán a chur ar an bhfear thall agus dearmad a dhéanamh ar an lag-iarracht atá á dhéanamh oige féin.

Mr. S. Collins

While I am sure all Deputies welcome the fact that we are making more money available to the universities, I think the time has come for the House to consider some of the root causes of the evils that exist in our university system. I am not going to enter into any arguments on the merits of a professorial ban on a college magazine or on whether or not there is deliberate or possibly intentional obstruction of the advance of the Irish language within certain of our constituent colleges. I want to direct the attention of the House to the main evil that exists in our university system which has been touched on lightly by Deputy Cowan. The sooner we in this House realise, particularly in present circumstances when the Government are contemplating large expenditure in many fields of national endeavour, that the time has come for the building somewhere in this country of an edifice that can be called a university the better. Many in this House have had experience of a university. There is none more competent in this House to talk in his own way on university problems than the Leader of the Opposition who, I think, will agree with me for once that what we want, particularly here in Dublin, is a university which will be something better than a semi-glorified technical school. The fault is inherent in the very buildings occupied by this university itself. They are scattered all over this city and, as Deputy Cowan has said, the students are scattered all over the city in varying types of "digs" and varying types of environment.

We are only nibbling at the problem of getting a decent university. We are aware that a valuable property has been purchased by University College, Dublin, adjacent to their present sports arena. I want to urge that the time has come for the building of a proper establishment where there can be proper housing and adequate accommodation for students, where there can be proper supervision and where there can be an adequate forum for the development and consolidation of student opinion. In any country in the world properly equipped with universities you have a great volume of thought and a great volume of effort in the communal life of professors and students. That is sadly lacking here, because there is no encouragement of and no reality about the community life that should be an inherent perquisite of university students.

In this country, with its tremendous heritage of learning, its tremendous heritage of intelligent, progressive thought, the Government will soon have to direct their minds to the building of a university worthy to carry on that tradition. We who are considering this university problem feel deep down within us that it is a national tragedy that we have not got a university worthy of the name. There would be no difficulty for any Government in getting the goodwill and cooperation of a unanimous House to give us such an establishment.

There is a good deal of sound common sense in the argument advanced by Deputy Kissane. There are too many students going into the university with a reasonably sound knowledge of their native language who leave it with practically none because there is no ordinary mixing amongst students competent to talk and discuss affairs in Irish in the course of their normal life which would encourage them to keep the language alive. I speak now from practical experience. I can go back to the time when I left school and went to university. Not only did I speak my native language reasonably fluently, but I actually thought in that medium. When I left university I was hesitant about speaking it, and I had lost all former unconscious effort of thinking in it.

There is something inherently wrong in a system which will allow that to happen. I think the fault lies in the fact that we have not got here a university centre gathering within its scope young people from all over the country with a sound knowledge of Irish and with communal interests, as many of our students have when they enter the university, to enable them to share both in their indoor and outdoor activities on a communal basis through the medium of their native tongue. I feel that it is only when a collective body of students with a sound knowledge of Irish can have their full round of daily life, from lecture room to coffee room and back again to lecture room, through the mid-day recess and the evening hours of freedom, through the medium of their own tongue, only then shall we achieve success in making the language the spoken language of our people. Students should have an opportunity of making everything that is appurtenant to their enjoyment appurtenant also to the use of their own language. That is not happening, and the reason why it is not happening is that we have not here a university capable of tackling that task.

I think that the person who has been trained in secondary school in the use of the Irish language should have available to him an opportunity of completing his education in whatever profession he may adopt through the medium of the Irish language. If we are in earnest about reviving our native tongue we must face up resolutely to the problem of equipping a university to serve the interests of these people. If we do not do that, then the sooner we stop talking about "aithbheóchaint na Gaeilge" the better it will be for us. The most unfortunate feature of our present university system is that in a big cosmopolitan college scattered over several buildings around the city, with its student membership spread throughout the length and breadth of the city from slum to fashionable flat, inevitably one cannot get the real background of a university education; I refer to that opportunity offered of developing mind and body in a co-ordinated effort towards maturity.

Deputies have spoken of the difficulties inherent in the administration of a college. I think the time has come when we must seriously consider making an investment which will result in the advancement of learning generally in the country. The time has come when we must spend money to reestablish some of the prestige that has been lost, that prestige which this country enjoyed when it brought light and knowledge to a pagan Europe in medieval times. We are not sufficiently deliberate in our approach to the real value of university education. Such education aims at something more than merely producing professional men and women. It must do that if it is to be of any real value. It is a sad commentary on the present state of affairs that the only function of our university seems to be to produce as quickly as possible sufficient material to man the various professions. That is not true university education. University education should be something bigger and better than that. I think the reason why we have not achieved that aim is that we have not probed the problem to its cankerous roots; one cannot build a house on a bad foundation.

This is not the time to consider a Supplementary Estimate. This is the time for the Government to bring in a constructive university plan which will eventually prove to be one of the best capital investments that the country can make. The people who run our universities do not take cognisance of the national outlook in regard to education generally.

Every Deputy knows that thousands of children, indeed hundreds of thousands of children, over a period of years, have left school with a reasonable knowledge of Irish. That was a foundation upon which should have been constructed our endeavour to making Irish the conversational language of the country. The contribution made by the secondary teachers has been lost because when the children go into university or into the Civil Service they find a far easier means of enjoying themselves through the medium of the English language. That is where the trouble arises. I am saying that quite seriously; that is where the real problem arises, because I think that any of us with any national consciousness, with any appreciation of our own nationhood, must be anxious to see every fair chance, encouragement and hope given to the revival of the Irish language, but it cannot be done——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy seems to be losing sight of the Estimate in his enthusiasm for the Irish language.

Mr. S. Collins

The Estimate refers to the constituent colleges of the universities and I think, with all respect, I can cover the whole field of university education.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is going somewhat wide at the moment.

Mr. S. Collins

With all respect, I should like to be directed——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I am not going to direct the Deputy in any way. I am simply indicating that, in the opinion of the Chair, he is losing sight of the Estimate in his enthusiasm for the Irish language. There is nothing about the Civil Service in this Estimate.

Mr. S. Collins

I think that if the Civil Service was mentioned in connection with the Estimate, it was mentioned as purely incidental to a hiatus. Subject to your ruling, I think I am entitled to cover the whole field of university education, as the Estimate covers the complete field of universities such as we have them in this country. In my enthusiasm for the Irish language—and I wish to finish on this note—I wish to say that may be the constituent colleges are not wide enough. Maybe it is time to have an extra constituent college which will cater in a positive and effective way for the people to whom Deputy Aiken has referred who, having been educated up to university standard completely through Irish, have to seek their professional qualifications through some other language.

Let me finish on this note that I hope to see very largely increased sums of money expended on giving to this country a finer type of university system that will not only be national and Irish, but Irish and national as well.

Mr. de Valera

I also regret that the Minister did not give more detail on the introduction of this Estimate. I think that this House would approach any question of providing moneys for university education in a generous spirit and that if the case is made, there would be no difficulty in getting the necessary money. The Minister had, I know, from the nature of departmental work, to have a case presented to him in order that he might be satisfied that the money should be provided. The colleges are autonomous institutions within the university. I do not know, for instance, what was the case made for the supplementary grant to University College, Dublin, University College, Cork, or University College, Galway, but I do know the demand that was made for the federal centre of the university and I know that the Minister cut down on what I would regard as a legitimate demand. I suspect that if we had the details of the demands that were made and of the provision that the Minister is making, we would find that he was cheeseparing in cases where he should not be cheeseparing. My attitude may not be the same as that of other Deputies in approaching this matter but I do believe that for a large number of years the university, because it did not make sufficiently strong demands, was starved through lack of funds which were necessary to enable it to function at the highest level. The college in Dublin has grown threefold since it was established. It was intended to cater ultimately for an estimated 1,000 students. There are over 3,000 students in that college to-day.

Consider the salaries that are paid to professors. I remember when the university was established about 1908, the salary for what were regarded as the highest paid professorships was £800. What has the change in the value of money been since that time? The Minister is in a position to get a better estimate of the relative value of money then and now than I am, but I would imagine that to bring the salary up to the value which it had in 1908, you would have to multiply the 1908 figure by a factor of three and a quarter. Certainly it would require to be multiplied at least three times. Therefore, a professorship which carried an £800 salary in 1908, to maintain the same relative position should now carry a salary of £2,400. That is if my factor is right. I do not think similar professorships carry anything like that at present.

If the professors are to be regarded as the foremost authorities in the country on their own particular subjects, and as the most highly qualified members of the profession to which they belong, surely it is not unreasonable if we expect to have the best, that we should pay them in accordance with the salaries which they would get in outside employment. I do not know very much about what were the relative amounts that could be carried in 1908 or 1910 in the professions outside by people of the same standard or relatively of the same standard, but I suspect that the salaries fixed for professors at that time were not overgenerous, relatively. Therefore, I am inclined to think, having regard to the present value of money, that if a university professor were paid £800 in 1908 and were paid something like three times the amount to-day, he would not be by any means relatively overpaid. I do not think the scales of salaries in the universities to-day are anything like that. The same relative values should hold again in the case of lecturers and assistants. If we want the best we must pay for the best.

The question of pensions also arises. The Minister said that some of this money is required for pensions. Personally, I am very interested in this question. I have always been interested in the pensions that should be given to professors. I have always regarded it as a pity that there should be a continuation in office of professors after they have reached the age of 65. That happens as a general rule because of the inadequacy of the pensions, though there may be exceptions. It is permissible to continue on for five or six years after 65, but as I say, I regard it as a pity that they should not make way for new blood and be given at the same time an opportunity of making available the results of their work over the years during which they had been actively teaching. Such men should have time to go back and collate a good deal of the special knowledge which they have acquired and publish it in a form in which it will be generally useful. There is work which a man of 65 and over could do, without, so to speak, blocking the natural flow of young people through the university staffs, but it would be unreasonable to expect that people who had been at the height of their profession should be asked to exist on the pensions which they would receive under the conditions that have obtained. It is very right that there should be reasonable pension provision made. I do not think that provision has been made. I, for one, would like to know the details. I would have liked to see, if possible, where the Minister's axe had fallen in regard to matters of that sort.

A single case, for instance, came to my notice quite recently. Because there were certain changes made in a college about pensions and because a professor happened to retire a very short time before it, he has to be satisfied with a pension which is very much less than he would have got even under the revised conditions.

On this question of pensions, if the Minister had told us what the demands were and what he had done in regard to these demands, I think we would be inclined to be, not less, but more generous than the Minister in regard to these matters. If we want a university to be what it ought to be we will have to provide the necessary funds for it.

As regards the federal centre of the university and the manner in which he has cut the demand there, most Deputies will know that the university centre as such, apart from the colleges, is at 48 and 49 Merrion Square—two ordinary residences that were taken over. Originally, a sum of £150,000 was made available for the university and Dublin College combined. That was divided up by the Dublin Commissioners at the time, giving £110,000 to the college and nominally £40,000 to the university. Only £4,800 was spent in purchasing houses in Merrion Square. There is no proper central establishment at all for the university. When honorary degrees are being conferred we have to go to the Department of External Affairs and ask for the use of the former ballroom of Iveagh House. If we did not have that it would not be possible to confer honorary degrees in anything like fitting surroundings. I remember we had in the past on more than one occasion to confer honorary degrees in a room— an ordinary drawing room—in Merrion Square. I do not think that was right. Therefore, first of all, the central establishment ought not to be starved.

The central establishment was allotted an annual grant of £10,000 by the Act of 1908. Taking the same factor as before—the Minister or the ex-Minister for Finance may correct me if I am wrong in taking the figure of three or three and a quarter—£10,000 then was equivalent to at least £30,000 to-day. It would probably be more. We are not making any provision of that magnitude at all. The costs of running the university have progressed, however, in that ratio. That is to say, salaries of staffs, the cost of maintenance, rates, and all these things have gone up in proportion. They have to be met out of this £10,000, the original sum, or £15,000 since 1947.

Another factor of comparison which is useful is to consider, for instance, what portion of the total income of the university was derived at that time from public grants and what portion of it was derived, say, from students' fees. At that time the proportion of the total revenue that came from public funds was 52 per cent. It is reduced now to 28 per cent. The university has had to try to make ends meet by increasing fees very substantially. The matriculation fee, since 1947, was increased from £3 to £4 and it is now one of the highest fees for matriculation. That is a severe hardship.

Mr. McGilligan

Multiplied by three and a quarter, it should go beyond that.

Mr. de Valera

I am glad to know my estimate was right.

Mr. McGilligan

I am not saying it was right but, on that estimate, the fee for matriculation ought to be raised to about £10.

Mr. de Valera

There is another consideration. The Minister wants me to send up the fee to £10, but we know perfectly well that we want our university to be open to people who would be excluded by fees of that magnitude.

Mr. McGilligan

I have not asked that they should be.

Mr. de Valera

I know you have not. It was legitimate for a Minister for Finance to make that remark, I admit. The argument against is decisive. The percentage that was given by the State from public funds and the percentage that was provided by fees has changed enormously. The percentage provided by public funds was 52 in 1908, and is now brought down to 28. The other day the calendar from Hull College came in and it was pointed out to me that, curiously enough, the amount that they were getting from public funds was 53 per cent., and they had only to provide the remainder from students' fees. In the National University students' fees mainly, in various ways, are providing 72 per cent. of the revenue. The public funds are providing only 28 per cent. I was going to point out how the university has been pinching, scraping and paring in every direction in an endeavour to make ends meet, but, despite everything it has done, we have a heavy annual deficit. When it sent up the matriculation fee to £4 the number of candidates went down substantially— over 10 per cent. So that there is a limit, even from the point of getting money, to the height to which we can profitably raise these fees.

There are other factors in this matter. I am speaking for the central institution, but if I had the details I think I could make out similarly that the colleges are not being properly dealt with. I am taking the case in respect of which I know the figures and the demand that was made and the way it was met. Despite all the efforts that have been made, there has been, on an average, a deficit in the University of £3,000 a year for the last three years. What was asked of the Minister was to make good that deficit and to provide a sum which would prevent a deficit recurring. A capital sum of £9,000 was required to meet the accumulated deficit, and an annual sum of £3,000 to prevent recurrence. I know that was cut down by the University Registrar; in making the application he cut it down, again trying to pare and struggle to try to make ends meet and diminish the demand on the public purse. But in the doing of that what has happened? All possibility of expansion is cut out.

Let us take studentships, the travelling studentships of the university. It is through these that you get the material for your professors; we get them into the State services also. Originally the sum that used to be provided for each student was £200 a year for two years. That was before the war—from the very beginning, I think. I do not know if it was ever less, but certainly for the past 20 years or so it was £200 a year for two years. £200 a year is not sufficient at the present time to keep a travelling student in other countries. It had to be raised to £300, and even that is not sufficient. In my opinion, another £100 should be added.

And not merely that, but there is need for more travelling studentships and not less. With modern intensive specialisation, it is not sufficient to have a travelling studentship for a group of subjects, say two or three continental languages, or two or three scientific subjects; there ought to be one for each. In the same way, in the case of Irish you want to have one in Irish and one in English instead of combining the two. If the university is to do what it could do to increase the standard of knowledge and lay the foundation for that increase by providing the material which we would have available for university professorships and assistants and lecturers it would be well worth the cost to make provision for these studentships so that our ablest young men and women could go to foreign countries and get in touch with those who would be regarded as the most expert, those who would have the greatest knowledge in their particular subjects. But, instead of advancing as we ought to advance, we have to contract in order to make ends meet.

Another thing for which money is required is the administrative staff. The staff have not been able to get, since the increase in 1947, increases such as have been given outside. The demand was there and it had to be refused. To sum up the position is that the sum which the Minister is giving here should be increased to £2,500—the demand made—and even that would not be sufficient. That demand has been pared in the way I have indicated, in my opinion in an unjustifiable way, preventing expansion and in a manner which will tend to impair the work which the university could do.

On the broader aspect of this subject, I did not think we were going to have a full-dress debate on university education and the part the university should play in the national life, on this particular Estimate. I think nobody who is interested in the university can have any strong objection to the views generally expressed in the course of this debate. The university has to depend upon public funds for a very large portion of its revenue. Consequently, as these moneys have to be voted in a House like this, it is natural that there should be the greatest goodwill between the representatives of the people and the university authorities. I think that goodwill has, in general, been shown here to-night.

With regard to some suggestions as to how the university could better meet some of the wishes one hears expressed outside—public opinion—I have some ideas as to a number of directions in which it could move so as to do that. I am sure that the lines that this debate has taken and the manner in which this matter has been approached would be very much more helpful than would be criticism which very often is not well informed. If we have criticism of the university, let it be criticism that is based on accurate information and fact.

I think it was Deputy Collins who spoke about the university not being properly equipped from the point of view of buildings. That is true. The fact that you have three times as many as were housed originally is the best proof of that. No doubt it would be more expensive, but in the long run I think it would have been better if, instead of letting one college overgrow so much, we had established another college. There is no reason why further colleges could not be established if, after proper examination, it were thought that additional colleges would serve the public interest better. It would undoubtedly mean more expense, because you would have to have separate buildings and a certain amount of multiplication; for instance, in another college you would have to have an extra set of professors and so on, but I am certain that in the long run the country would gain. You would have three or four professors dealing with the one subject in the different colleges, and there would be a certain amount of rivalry and collaboration, and in the long run that would have its particular value.

I know the financial aspect has always to be taken into account. One can think of all sorts of good things to be done, but one always has to count the cost. However, I think the establishment of another college would be preferable to having the present college growing to a still greater size.

I should like it to be understood that I am talking now purely as a Deputy; it is from that aspect I am speaking about these things. Of course, I am speaking with such knowledge as I have got through another capacity, but my attitude here should not be regarded as that of a representative of a university. I am not here speaking as the representative of the university; I am speaking merely as a Deputy of the House.

If there was any question of another college being established, I think it would be of tremendous value to the cause of the revival of the language if that college were designed to do what Deputy Collins has suggested; in other words, that it would be a college which would be staffed by people who would habitually speak the Irish language, which would be staffed by professors who would know the language thoroughly and would lecture through it. To my mind, any other process would be too slow to get us to the highest reaches that we can reasonably expect, the highest reaches in the teaching of various subjects through Irish.

If you start a completely Irish college it need not necessarily start with all the faculties at once. Each faculty could start with an outstanding person, suitable as a professor for any one of the subjects, beginning with the subjects which have been taught through the primary and secondary courses. I think the Deputies who have been speaking here were quite right in expecting that the university should cater for those who already have had their education through Irish. Undoubtedly that is the first thing that should be done. Wherever we have students who have been taught in colleges capable of teaching them up to the leaving certificate through Irish in a variety of subjects, then in the university it ought to be possible to take those students and complete their courses in the same subjects through the Irish language.

There are difficulties about books, but they would have to be overcome, bit by bit, by the publication of suitable books prepared by competent persons, mainly the university professors and lecturers themselves. The book difficulty is twofold. There is also the question of the availability of teachers able to teach the subjects at university standards. There must be no question of lowering the standard of teaching through its being done in Irish. Such teaching can be done in many subjects, where we can get professors quite capable of giving instruction through Irish on the highest level. There are other subjects in which that is not so, but that difficulty can be overcome gradually.

For the existing university college, new buildings are needed. I knew that they had acquired a site. When we were the Government there were questions of providing money to erect college buildings. I know the difficulty about building materials and the need of conserving them for the housing of ordinary private families. With the best will in the world there may be delays on that score. On the monetary score there should be no delay; I do not believe there is, and do not anticipate that there will be.

Then there is the question of a residential college. I do not know whether the Minister was in the old university college here in Stephen's Green. I happened to be in a similar college at Blackrock, where we had a number of men doing courses at university standards. They lived together in a community, and my experience there was that it was an invaluable preparation for life. I have always regretted that it has not been possible for us to provide such an institution for the students coming to the university, as there is not the slightest doubt that it gives opportunities of various kinds for development and a training which you will not get in any other way. There were two ways of trying to get that. One was that of having a definite residential college, a State college so to speak, and the other was the provision of a number of hostels catering for university students. I suggested to certain bodies that they might provide these hostels. You cannot have them, however, until there is a definite location for the college itself. If hostels are to be of real value, they must be at a reasonable distance from the college where the lectures are given. You must establish your centre first and then proceed with the hostels.

We have a number of secondary colleges from which students go to the university. It would be very natural that those colleges should arrange to have hostels where their own students could reside when coming to the university. That would not exclude others, of course, from such hostels, but it would be of great assistance to their own students. I have made that suggestion to certain bodies, but there has been the location difficulty, and the financial difficulty. It is no small thing to face the expense of building a suitable place of residence for 40 or 60 students, which, in my opinion, would be the ideal number. When there are larger numbers, there are great difficulties. I think that in California there are something like 24,000 students.

Mr. McGilligan

And they address the classes through loud speakers.

Mr. de Valera

A student might as well read a book as that. To get the full value, there must be close contact between students and professors and between the students themselves and the professors themselves, at least in related subjects.

With regard to a State residential college, I see a number of difficulties. If the authorities of secondary colleges were not in a position to provide the money, or if the State were not prepared to help to find the funds for such colleges, then the State might have to provide the residential college directly. In my view, that would not be as good a way as the other. I would prefer to see help given to establish a number of hostels in the neighbourhood of the university, rather than see the State try to run a State hostel. It could not do it directly, of course.

A number of other points have arisen in the debate, on which I would like to express some views; but we are all grateful to the Chair for the latitude that has been given in discussing this question on a Supplementary Estimate. I think it was very wise to give such latitude, though this is not the best time for the discussion. However, no friend of the university could complain in the slightest if we have discussions of this sort when the general Estimate comes along. No one here wants to interfere with the day-to-day running of the colleges or their programmes, or interfere in any way like that with the autonomy of the college. At the same time, since public funds are being voted for the benefit of the university, it is right that those interested in the university and know its working should show to the other Deputies who are voting those funds why those funds are necessary, and how the national interest is served in providing them.

Mr. Bartley

In regard to the increases, I would like to draw attention to the fact that the Galway College seems to be more or less in the position of Cinderella. Since a great many complaints are now heard regarding the increasing number of students crowding into Dublin, would it not be well to have some sort of decentralisation in university education? If so, it seems to me that the Galway College ought to get a little more help than it is getting. After all, in other countries the capital cities are not always the university cities. There is no reason why we should not try to remove our main university centre from the capital city here in this country, with general benefit to university education as a whole and with special advantage to the City of Dublin.

The question of scholarships was referred to by Deputy Aiken. I would like to point out that, with all due respect to the autonomy of the universities, anything from £50 to £100 per pupil is provided by the State and it is not true to say that the pupils' usual fees and lodging expenses are paid by their parents or that they pay entirely for their university education. Where there is so high a proportion of the expenditure by the State in respect of each pupil, it does seem to me that pupils, whether or not they can avail of the tuition offered in the university, have the right to follow any particular course they like. It seems to be open to some question. I do not think that anybody can recommend that there should be an absolute prohibition of it. In any event, a balance of the situation might be produced by increasing the number of scholarships available to the best brains, to enable those youngsters who can really take advantage of the tuition offered and who can give a far better return to the country in respect of the expenditure incurred on their behalf, to do so.

The question of Galway has been referred to, and, apart altogether from the part which Galway plays in the revival of the language, I think that some place outside Dublin ought to be built up as a principal university centre in the country. Galway has as good a claim as any other place in the country for consideration. Sin a bhfuil le rá agam.

Mr. McGilligan

I have been asked to state the basis on which the grants have been made. I can give that in general. When the House votes these moneys, the House loses its grip and I hope the House will pass the Vote with that knowledge. On the distribution of the moneys it is entirely a matter for each university institution to distribute the money as it pleases. In my conversation with these people, I have indicated the method of calculation which I used in arriving at this total. They may or may not pay attention to that. There are certain things arising out of the interview that must be before our minds. I also want to state here that I cannot have any disagreement with the university, if they make an entirely different distribution of these sums. That is part of university autonomy.

When I started to consider this matter, I found myself faced with this problem. Some of the colleges have no pension fund. They met their costs on pensions out of their ordinary revenue. The university institutions, in the main, have pension funds. Some of these were found to be actuarially insolvent. University College, Dublin, was particularly so. It was in a very bad way indeed. They had given me actuarial calculations as to what they would require to make the fund solvent and to bear whatever would be the added expenses on a new scale, having some relation to the new remuneration which was proposed. There was another college in which the pension fund was also deficient. As far as I know, I have met every one of those demands in full. As far as the colleges of the National University are concerned, the demands were met in full. I had to recognise, notwithstanding various ad hoc payments made from time to time in respect of buildings, that colleges in the main were in debt. Again, University College, Dublin, was in a very bad way. They had an enormous deficit and that was a matter which I had to investigate. I had to investigate it from two points of view. I had to allow for liquidation of that debt over a number of years. Secondly, I had to discover the causes, over a recent number of years, of the accumulation of that debt and to prevent those causes occurring again. I had to provide against the re-emergence of the conditions that made for deficit over the years. As far as that is concerned also, I have met the claim 100 per cent.

I have made provision for the liquidation of the debt over a particular number of years. I have provided sufficient funds to do that, and I think I have provided them with sufficient funds to prevent debt recurring. Those were three headings and they varied in the different colleges. That is mainly the difference under these three headings, and mainly explains what appears to be the big amount given to University College, Dublin, as compared with other institutions. The pension fund in University College, Dublin, was more insolvent than in any of the others.

Amongst the other divisions I had to look into, was the case made by the college that they should get extra money in order to enable them to give emoluments to their staff. A third thing was that they all asked for certain sums for moderate expansion and to meet contingencies. I want to say here and now, in answer to the phrase "cheeseparing," that as far as the teaching colleges of University College, Dublin, are concerned, there was nothing in the way of cheeseparing. I had the files in front of me in this matter, files which refferd to the additional amounts which were given in 1947 as a result of a request that was made in 1946. The method adopted in 1946 in regard to the three colleges was that a committee was established which reported in certain terms. The award made was somewhat better than the original award. The demands that were made on these three colleges came to 140 per cent. of the original endowment. The awards that were given were 50 per cent. of the original grant. Relating demand to award, they got about one-third of what they requested.

I can say with very little in the way of reservation that I have met the demands of these three colleges this time to 100 per cent. I make the reservation in this way: certain claims were put in to me and I subjected them to personal examination, in the main—I was assisted by a member of the Civil Service at one time but I had no interdepartmental committee—and if anything is wrong, it is my own personal responsibility. I dealt with this matter almost as an individual. I felt that I had some personal association with it, and that it was better that I should do it rather than to have it subjected to the sort of scrutiny to which these matters were subjected before. The reservation I make is that the claims, when put in to me, did show, on analysis, a certain amount of overlapping, and I had the feeling, too-there was a low point which might have been touched, a high point which might have been touched, and an intermediate point—that, in the main, the claims were put at the highest point. I believe that this will stand a test, on an application to the authorities of the three colleges, that, if we bulk the three together—Dublin, Cork and the college in Galway—they will agree that they have had 100 per cent. of the demand they made on me. That is something which nobody else can say, and I rarely permit myself to say it of any demand made upon me in my present position.

Deputy de Valera has spoken of the federalising of part of the university. If I had thought that the difference of £500 was going to aggravate the Deputy so much, I would have given it, because that is all that is in it.

Mr. de Valera

Might I interrupt the Minister for a moment? I would have said that, to function properly, we needed to increase the amounts paid for travelling studentships and the number of such studentships, and that with regard to some of the other things in respect of which they have been trying by increasing fees and looking for £2,500 and getting only something over half, that method was exhausted and that you could not go on in that way.

Mr. McGilligan

All I can say is that I have a document before me, and I may say, incidentally, that this particular grant was not in my mind when I spoke on the Budget because I had not received this demand. The demand I got in relation to 49 Merrion Square—if I may distinguish it in that way—was an increase in the annual grant of £2,500. They are getting £2,000.

Mr. de Valera

You cheesepared for the £500.

Mr. McGilligan

I do not think so. With regard to studentships and bursaries, there is an additional expenditure of £571, in this memorandum, as an item in a tot that comes to £12,000 odd. There are increases in remuneration of examiners, superintendents, and so on, and travelling expenses, expenses of examinations in colleges, travelling studentships, bursaries, various grants, miscellaneous administrative expenses and a sum of money at the top with regard to salaries, printing and incidentals. These are all here, and these all come in bulk to a demand on me for £2,500. In addition, a phrase is used that made me feel that I could, for the time being——

Mr. de Valera

They did not know the Department of Finance.

Mr. McGilligan

The Department of Finance never touched this; this is my own doing. I am told in this phrase that a decision was taken by the Senate of the university for a further increase in fees to operate in 1950 and after, and that the anticipation was that that would bring in £2,500, but they totted up only £1,500 for the purposes of this document, so there is a sum of £1,000 in hand.

Mr. de Valera

The Minister knows full well that they will not get anything like £2,500.

Mr. McGilligan

Suppose that instead of getting £2,500, they get £2,000, they are on the level.

Mr. de Valera

They are not.

Mr. McGilligan

Meeting everything that is here. A sum of £500 is not going to break 49 Merrion Square, and certainly is not going to break the State.

Mr. de Valera

It is cheeseparing.

Mr. McGilligan

I do not intend it to be. I had no consultation with regard to this document because it came to me a little late, and I must admit that, being late and having been bulked with all my other documents, I rather forgot about that institution, until the very end, and then I put in this sum of £2,000. However, it is a very small matter and it may be rectified eventually.

A variety of other matters have been talked on and I do not want to go into any great detail with regard to these items. I hope the House will not feel that I am evading giving any figures the House should have. If the House wants them, Deputies can get them by personal approach or by way of parliamentary question. I simply give the basis of the calculations on which I worked in order to arrive at these sums, emphasising that how the institution will distribute these sums is their affair and not mine.

Mr. de Valera

While that is true, surely it is not to be suggested, if there are understandings with the Minister for Finance with regard to demands made on a certain basis, these will be honoured?

Mr. McGilligan

I am quite certain that the university will run much on these lines, but I do not propose to tell the universities in a particular case: "I am giving you so much for liquidation of debt and so much for pension fund purposes." They know— I have had my personal contacts with them—the way in which these matters were arrived at and it will be for them to distribute these moneys. They have freedom. We must trust them, and I personally do trust them.

The matter of a university grants committee has been referred to. That has been long in my mind, and I have discussed it with people who know something about the operation of the university grants committee in England. It would be much better, I think, if, for the aid of the Dáil when voting moneys, there was something in the way of a report from a body like the University Grants Committee in England which could survey the needs of these colleges and put up some scheme. The difficulty is to arrive at the personnel. I have been considering it for some time, but I cannot say that it has gone any great distance. The project was mooted by a group of university graduates, mainly of University College, Dublin, and I gave it a good, sympathetic reception, but I have had to postpone it because of other work. However, we will probably arrive at something of that nature hereafter.

The main discussion was on this matter of the attitude of University College, Dublin, towards the Irish language, and I must say that I have to confess to a great deal of disappointment with the way in which it was discussed. In an Assembly like this such a matter should be discussed away from an atmosphere of newspaper headings or any sort of scare type of business and there should not be this attempt to raise antagonism against a group of people who are not antagonistic to the Irish language, and if people met them, that would be realised. It may be proper to score debating points here or to parade sympathies. I do not mind the parading of sympathy by people who are enthusiastic along particular lines, but I object when it is done to the denigration of people who are very worthy and who have not got the attitude represented here with regard to Irish.

I have heard talk of the antagonism or, alternatively, the apathy of—we may as well be frank about it—University College, Dublin, towards Irish. That is a complete misconception of their attitude and their view. If it is not a misconception, and if I am not allowed to characterise it in that way, I will characterise it in much less mild language. There is a disagreement as to methods of developing the Irish language, but because people here have views—not tested out by practical experience, I may remark—it is wrong to say that people who do not accept those views 100 per cent. are either apathetic about Irish or antagonistic to it. I passed my adolescent period and the greater part of my adult life in association with University College, Dublin. Deputy de Valera was talking about the time when the college was founded and said that he was in Blackrock. I was associated with it in the Deputy's own time but a little later. We both saw the university founded and University College, Dublin, established. We saw the university grow up. Each of us had in our different ways a quite intimate association with that college and I feel that that college can take its place in the history of the country. When occasion demanded it indicated as much national sympathy and gave as much effort towards the promotion of our national objectives as any other group of people in the country.

On the matter of Irish I have seen memoranda which proceeded from different people in the university who were specially interested in the matter, indicating the point of view they had. I think that Deputy de Valera had discussions with them on methods and schemes for promoting the use of Irish and getting Irish used to the greatest extent possible as a medium of instruction. I do not think the Deputy can really believe that there is anything in the nature of antagonism or apathy——

Mr. de Valera

I did not say that.

Mr. McGilligan

I know he did not; I am asking the Deputy to come to my aid. I know he had some discussions with those people. The staff of University College, Dublin, have nothing to be ashamed of in regard to their attitude. They have a particular point of view with regard to Irish and how Irish might be developed and they are in a position to substantiate that viewpoint by considered argument. Of course that has never percolated down here. All we have are objections. We are told that University College, Dublin, has a particular attitude towards Irish and must be regarded as non-national. The House should get out of the attitude of describing these people as aliens. They are our own people. I do not know how many aliens there are among them. One or two people may have been brought in among the staff but there is a purpose in that. In the main, they are people of our own generation, people who grew up in the exciting days of the national resurgence and shared in that. It is quite wrong that we should speak as if they were folk who had made up their minds that Irish had to be killed and were going with great enthusiasm and vigour along the path of destroying the national language.

Deputy Captain Cowan is not here, but one of these days we may get a chance of talking in this House about the principle of autonomy among universities. If Deputy Cowan's views were to prevail in this House on that matter of the universities, it would be better far to abandon them than to have them carry on under the conditions laid down here. You cannot give warnings, notes of instruction or something approaching terrorisation to the university authorities. You may work through their governing authority by means of public opinion and getting them to reflect public opinion with regard to national objectives but I think they are quite receptive of it. By tradition, by breeding and by everything else they should be with the people of the country on those lines. When it comes to autonomy universities can point to many examples of people connected with the universities who gave in to warnings and terrorisation and the result was not the realisation of the objectives of the people concerned but the destruction of the university system.

On the question of accommodation, I know there are people who do not accept the Newman ideal of a residential university but I think that such people would be in the minority. It is generally accepted, I think, that the best value in a university comes from the association of a number of people who are proceeding towards different objectives, and that that is what makes for the fullest university life. Let it not be thought that I am expressing these views on behalf of the university people. I know that there are a lot of people with different views. What is preventing the full fruition of the universities in this country is the lack of money and there is no way of providing a residential system under the auspices of the National University. It is provided to a great extent in Galway and better, from its original status, in Cork while University College, Dublin, is still very far behind in that regard.

I am very much heartened by what has been said here to-night, because I had intended to bring forward proposals next Budget time for a proper building scheme for University College, Dublin. I hope I will be left long enough in this position at least to lay down the lines for that development, and to do something in a practical way towards developing a system of proper university buildings and getting a scheme carried out in respect of University College, Dublin.

Some remarks were made here criticising the various University Colleges for being technical schools. I do not think that anybody who has been through them can criticise them for that. I thought I got a hint from the other side of the House that people were anxious that they should become that. I hope that that day will not dawn, and that we will be able to preserve the universities as something better, something fuller in their whole attitude than technical schools.

Deputies will have noticed that a grant has been made to the College of Surgeons—not very much. I want to explain why it is so small. I agreed in the end to give the College of Surgeons a certain amount of money, just sufficient to allow them to make adequate payments to their present staff, but I refused to give them money for development or expansion. It is high time for this country to decide whether it is right and proper that within a loud speaker area from the centre of Stephen's Green we should have three medical teaching bodies of university status. I propose to have that question inquired into before the College of Surgeons is allowed to expand.

I do not want to go into minor matters in regard to discipline and things that have happened in University College, Dublin. I will leave that to the authorities.

I do not pretend that this is a very big advance. It is a better advance than was made before. That is all I claim credit for. I have been asked about salaries, but I have no basis for the distribution of these moneys to the salaried personnel. What I was asked was—and this is subject to many reservations—to give sufficient moneys to enable a 25 per cent. increase to be given to the staff. Whether that will emerge as a 25 per cent. increase right along the line or not I do not know. It is not my business.

Mr. de Valera

Is that for all the colleges?

Mr. McGilligan

I made my calculations more or less on the same basis throughout. A recommendation or agreement has, I understand, been put before me as between the authorities in the three colleges that there should be more or less equivalence between the salaries, but there were reservations. On the whole, it will allow for an increase of about 25 per cent., certainly as far as the main staff is concerned, but exactly how that will be distributed I do not know. Suppose a 25 per cent. increase is given, the situation will be that the colleges whose professors' salaries are fixed at £1,200 or £1,250—the schemes vary in the different colleges—would add a quarter, make a 25 per cent. addition. Some have a rather larger qualifying period and some a shorter one. Suppose it is given in that way, it will mean that the salaries of the professors will run at about £1,500 according to length of service and various other circumstances.

At the moment in England they are aiming for professors at salaries of a minimum of £1,600 and going to £2,000. That is with regard to people who do not hold what are described as "clinical posts". In the medical and dental staffs the clinical posts are at the minimum from £2,250 to £2,750 and pre-clinical posts from £2,000 to £2,500. A professorial salary starts at £1,600 and goes to £2,000. There is one last figure which I should like to give. I take University College, Dublin, as the standard here. Take into consideration their original grant and the addition now made and take into consideration the number of their students—there are over 3,300 at the moment. The income which University College, Dublin, has would work out at about £90 a student. I am putting it at a high figure—higher than in the memorandum given to me. In the British universities the average in 1920-21 was £80 per student. In 1935-36 it had risen to £121 per student. In 1946-47 it had risen to £185, on an average, per student. Even with these additions, and taking University College, Dublin, as getting a bigger subvention than any of the others, the income will then only be £90 per student—which is still far below the British average, though we may advance more rapidly to that standard than heretofore.

Question put and agreed to.