Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 10 Jul 1951

Vol. 126 No. 8

Committee on Finance. - Vote 27—Agriculture (Resumed).

Mr. O. Flanagan

In view of the arrangement which the House has just arrived at concerning the allocation of time for the debates on the remaining Estimates, including Agriculture, it is not my intention to detain the House to any great extent now. On the last occasion on which I was speaking on this Estimate I referred to the strong criticism which came from the Fianna Fáil Party regarding the Danish butter. That criticism was to be heard from every Fianna Fáil platform, and it was used as a weapon against the former Minister for Agriculture. It was said that the butter industry had dropped to a very low level in this country and that butter was being imported which was distasteful to our people. That butter was described in many different ways on the Fianna Fáil platforms. Even from the Minister's own platform in his constituency of Kilkenny-Carlow, the question of the importation of Danish butter by the outgoing Minister for Agriculture was used as a weapon against that Minister and the matter was regarded by the Fianna Fáil spokesmen as being of paramount importance. I should like the Minister or any member of the Fianna Fáil Party to tell us what objection they had to eating Danish butter. Is it not true that for years we have been endeavouring to make butter in this country on the same lines as the Danes make it— and even better, if possible?

Is it not further true that the real difference between our butter and Danish butter is that the Danes make their butter from ripe cream—in other words, sour cream—and that we make our butter from sweet cream? I understand that, as an experiment, the Danes manufacture butter from sweet cream and that it is identical with ours. I fail to see justification for the very serious objection which was raised in regard to Danish butter. Is it not a fact that very recently—since the Minister took office—the Danes have been asked to carry out a further experiment in the manufacture of butter from sweet cream and that they have been requested to depart from the manner in which they make their butter now from ripe cream or sour cream? I should much prefer to see Danish butter in this country than to go back again to the days when Fianna Fáil provided our households with a 2-oz. ration per person. I hope we will never go back to those days again.

I do not desire to repeat in any way my protest against the stupidity of the Minister in permitting the price of butter to be increased on the poorer sections of our community. During the past week-end, the chairman of the Council of the Irish Creamery Milk Suppliers stated that on the 23rd June he received a telegram from the Minister stating that he was prepared to receive a deputation to discuss milk prices. The chairman further stated that after the meeting the Minister went into the Dáil and disclosed the new price.

Minister for Agriculture (Mr. T. Walsh)

That is quite wrong.

Mr. O. Flanagan

Is the Minister denying the statement made by the chairman?

Mr. Walsh

I asked for an informal talk, which we had.

Mr. O. Flanagan

And during the informal talk, the Minister kept his mouth shut?

Mr. Walsh

That also is wrong.

Mr. O. Flanagan

The Minister has denied the statement made at Limerick recently by the chairman of the Council of the Irish Creamery Milk Suppliers.

Mr. Walsh

I deny it absolutely and completely.

Mr. O. Flanagan

The Minister, I expect, will also deny that it was the civil servants who increased the price of butter. I am very glad to see that he has taken full responsibility for that action on himself now. I hope that what I fear will not come to reality. I hope that the Minister's Department is not going to run by itself and that the civil servants will not have complete control. I am very proud and pleased to hear now that the statement made to the effect that it was the civil servants who increased the price of butter on the poor and provided an increase in the price for milk to the dairy farmers is not true and that it was the Minister who did so. The Minister has also assured this House that he did not remain deadly silent during the interview which was mentioned at a recent meeting of the creamery milk suppliers in Limerick. I am very pleased the Minister has taken this opportunity of denying these charges. If what the Minister says is true, and if his statement is to be accepted, I think that an apology should be forthcoming with the least possible delay from Mr. Fletcher and from those who made that statement concerning the Minister.

Can the Minister indicate to this House what plans he has in mind for the development of agriculture? Can the Minister indicate what other plan he has in mind besides the complete elimination of black pigs? Does the Minister himself take the responsibility of ending for all time the population of black pigs in this country—or is he throwing that responsibility on the civil servants? I should be very pleased to hear now whether the decision to eliminate the black pig from this country was made by civil servants or whether it is just another crazy idea which we would expect to come from the people at present occupying the Government Benches. When the Minister comes to give us his reasons for the elimination of the black pig from this country, there is one thing that we can safely say and that is that the Minister finds himself in the position of having to admit that there are pigs in this country.

There have been supplies of pigs for the past three years. The Minister can recall the days—his colleague, the present Minister for Local Government, was then Minister for Agriculture—when bacon in this city and country was only a memory. There were ample supplies of bacon and pigs were plentiful in the past three years. That must be admitted. What plans has the Minister and what statement will he make, when concluding this debate, to indicate that there will be no shortage of bacon at reasonable prices for the people of Dublin? Will he give a guarantee that in the years ahead there will be ample supplies of bacon for everyone who requires it?

I should like to know what changes the Minister has in mind concerning the land rehabilitation project. I should have expected, and anyone would have expected, in view of the opposition that came from this side of the House when Fianna Fáil were in opposition that one of the first acts they would perform would be to eliminate completely the land rehabilitation project despite the fact that it was denied that members of the Fianna Fáil Party bitterly criticised the scheme and warned smallholders and others that if they availed of the land rehabilitation project their rents, rates and taxes would go up sky high.

I should be very pleased to hear what alterations the Minister proposes to make in that scheme in view of the fact that one of the first statements he made at a meeting of the Carlow Committee of Agriculture was that the scheme was a good one but required alterations. We are entitled to know what alterations he proposes to make in that connection. We are entitled to know what the Minister's beliefs are so far as the scheme is concerned. Will the Minister tell the House it was a bad scheme or will he tell the House that it is a good scheme and one which should be encouraged and developed? I would be very anxious to hear from the Minister in that connection.

Has the Minister read the debates on the Estimate for the Department of Agriculture when he was on this side of the House? Apart from reading his own speech, which will be distasteful to him, has the Minister read the speech made by Deputy Moran, the Deputy from South Mayo? Has the Minister ascertained how many cattle died in South Mayo and has he ascertained the cause of death of those cattle? Deputy Moran said in this House six weeks ago that every second beast was falling dead in South Mayo.

I should like to know what the Minister is going to do for the small farmers in South Mayo in this connection. I should like to know whether his advisers have now informed him that not one beast was lost in Mayo; that the statement made by Deputy Moran was a personal statement and a personal attack on Deputy Dillon, the previous Minister for Agriculture; and that there was no foundation whatsoever for the allegations concerning the imaginary, deplorable conditions that existed in South Mayo. I think it is only right that the Minister should present the House with the facts concerning that state of affairs.

Finally, might I ask the Minister to give effect to one of the 17 points, that a measure of co-operation would be provided and support given to develop agriculture? The only one real measure of support in that connection would be to know what the Minister is prepared to do in regard to making loans available to small farmers at cheap rates of interest. It is unnecessary to remind the House that the farming community are a community upon which very great demands are made. They have now to face an increase in the rates of pay of agricultural workers.

I am very pleased to know that the Minister has the question of wheat prices under review and that in the next few weeks he will make an announcement concerning an increase in the price per barrel of wheat. In order to assist the farmers to pay the increased rates of pay given to the agricultural workers—rates of pay which should be further increased—I hope that no time will be lost in having an announcement made to increase the price per barrel for wheat, oats and barley. I hope also that an announcement will be made substantially increasing the prices per ton for beet. I want to be helpful to the Minister. In view of the ever rising cost of living and in view also of the increased cost for the carrying out of repairs to agricultural machinery, I hope the Minister will take steps to ensure that the prices of all agricultural products will be increased forthwith.

I should also like the Minister to make some announcement, one which would be welcomed by the majority of small farmers, concerning what financial scheme he has in mind to enable small farmers to stock their lands. Does the Minister still expect small farmers to have recourse to the Agricultural Credit Corporation or has the Minister any alternative scheme in mind? When a farmer is applying to the Agricultural Credit Corporation for a loan either to assist him in the purchase of live stock or in purchase of machinery, one of the first questions on the application form concerns how much money he has in the bank. Does not the Minister consider that to be a very silly question to ask a farmer who is applying for a loan? I hope so far as the Agricultural Credit Corporation is concerned that we will have a completely reconstructed and more generous scheme whereby small farmers will be able to obtain loans. I hope that the red tape which existed there will be eliminated so far as loans of this kind are concerned. We all know that the banks are very slow to give money to small farmers. The very same guarantees required by the banks are also required by the Agricultural Credit Corporation. Does not the Minister consider it to be very humiliating for a small farmer to have to request his neighbours to sign bank bills? The very same type of procedure exists so far as the Agricultural Credit Corporation is concerned. The same guarantors have to be provided before the farmer can get a loan, even for the purchase of a cow.

When the Minister was on this side of the House he and his colleagues criticised the inter-Party Government for not completely relieving the plight of the small farmer who they said was prevented from taking part in the drive for increased food owing to the lack of capital. Now that Deputy Walsh is Minister for Agriculture, I hope he will take steps to have this deplorable grievance of the small farmers remedied and that an announcement will be made indicating that loans will be made available for all small farmers who require them for the purpose of restocking their lands and assisting them to purchase machinery. It is quite true to say that loans, on which interest at 4 per cent. is charged, are made available by the Agricultural Credit Corporation for the purchase of live stock, manures, seeds, machinery and implements. It is quite true to say that loans are available for the the erection of dwelling-houses, hay barns and other farm outbuildings. We all know that those loans are available, but they are wrapped up in such coils of red tape that it is impossible for the farmers to get at them. The loans are there on paper for the farmers to see, but when farmers go to obtain the loans they have the utmost difficulty in obtaining them. Will the Minister undertake to cut completely the red tape which is standing in the way of farmers availing of the present loan system of the Agricultural Credit Corporation? It might be very interesting to know that the Agricultural Credit Corporation work completely independent of the Minister's Department and independent of this House.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is out of order.

Mr. O. Flanagan

I realise that. I should like to know from the Minister the number of applications which were made for loans in recent months and the number which were refused. I know very well that it is large. I know very well that in my constituency, and I am glad that Deputy Davin is present to vouch for the accuracy of what I am about to say, in the Luggacurran electoral area of County Laoighis the farmers availed of a scheme sponsored by a former Minister for Agriculture following on the very bad summer some years ago. This scheme came to the rescue of the farmers by making loans available to them, and the farmers availed of the scheme. Some of them found some difficulty in making the payments on the date required but, on the whole, they were decent, honest men and they kept their word. They paid their instalments as promptly as they possibly could.

Now, some of these farmers are in the Minister's own constituency in the Castlecomer area of North Kilkenny in the parishes of Doonane and Tolerton and in the coal-mining district of Laoighis. These farmers have reached a stage at which they require some further financial assistance. They have not yet completely paid off all the instalments under the scheme I mentioned earlier. What steps will the Minister take to come to the rescue of the small farmers who now require loans? I hope these people will be enabled to secure loans at a lower rate of interest than 4½ per cent.

I think it is bad policy on the part of the Government and the Minister, who profess themselves anxious to relieve the plight of the small farmer and anxious to encourage agricultural production, to leave these farmers in the position in which they find themselves at the moment. I think the first step that should be taken is to provide money for those farmers who need it in order to produce food for man and beast. I think that money should be provided at a much lower rate of interest and, if possible, free of interest. I make no apology for advocating loans free of interest for farmers who want to increase production or improve live stock.

To what greater advantage could money be spent if not in improving the productivity of our land? Some of the millions that are lying idle should be put into production and should be given to those people who are engaged in our most important industry working on the land.

I am anxious to hear from the Minister what plans he has for the development of agriculture. In what way can he improve on the great work done by his predecessor? I am glad the Minister realises that he has now to follow in the footsteps of the best Minister for Agriculture in Europe, Deputy James Dillon. As Minister for Agriculture, I hope the present occupant of the post will enjoy the best of health during his period in office and that that period will be short and brief and that it will not be long until we have again in that position that Minister for Agriculture who succeeded in putting agriculture on the map. No man ever did as much as Deputy James Dillon did. No man ever had the interests of the farming community so deeply at heart as Deputy James Dillon had. I hope it will not be many months before we again have Deputy James Dillon where we want him, helping the farmers to progress and to advance their industry towards the status we would all like to see a flourishing agriculture enjoying in this country.

Mr. Keane

When the present Minister for Agriculture was a Deputy on this side of the House he did not, perhaps, visualise how rapid his promotion would be. Possibly he was carrying out the plans of the council of perfection of Fianna Fáil when he said while in opposition that he did not believe in the land rehabilitation project and that he thought the arable land should be improved before we proceeded towards the conversion of the scrub-lands. He mentioned fertilisers in that connection. He was very anxious about fertilisers. It was not just prior to the dissolution that he mentioned fertilisers; he mentioned them on several occasions while occupying these benches.

Has his promotion, like good or bad wine, gone to his head? Has he forgotten that there is such a word as "fertiliser"? In answer to a Parliamentary question of mine on 28th June, at column 747 of Volume 126 of Official Report, the Minister said:—

"I have not yet had an opportunity of going closely into the matter, and I am not therefore in a position to state when, if ever, a subsidy will be given to farmers for fertilisers. It will nevertheless be clear to the Deputy that as no provision has been made in the Estimates for such a subsidy it is very unlikely that any can be paid this year."

As a practical farmer, I dare say the Minister is aware that certain lands require fertilisers particularly for the production of grass in the months of November and December. He is equally well aware that only a Supplementary Estimate can be introduced here between now and this time 12 months. I remember a scheme which the present Minister flaunted when he was in opposition in relation to fertilising arable land so as to put it into production. The Minister has said that no provision is made in this year's Estimate. Was provision made for the recent increase in the price of milk, an increase which will have the effect of doubling the profit about which the present Minister for Education, Deputy Seán Moylan, when in opposition, stated at column 125, Volume 1573 of Official Report:—

"Some 130,000 cwt. of butter, if my anticipation in regard to production is reasonably sound, will be produced from October to May and, without any advance in the price of milk, the return to the Exchequer from this, as a result of the advance in the price of butter, will be £121,000. Deduct from this sum the £75,000 paid for summer milk by the Exchequer and we discover the net profit on the transaction to the Exchequer is £46,000."

If we double that by a simple mathematical calculation, we get £92,000. Why not put the £92,000 now into fertilisers? Would that not be a constructive policy? Would that not enhance the land and give us a good grass crop? I know many people are not in favour of grass. Some people were much more in favour of tillage when they were in opposition. The Minister, as a Minister, knows now that it is not treason to grow grass. It is not treachery to the nation to grow grass. If the Minister retains his present ministerial rank, I would like to take him down to Castlecomer and make him swallow the statement he made here on one occasion. I had a better opinion of the Minister at one time. Whatever else he had not, I thought he had guts.

Mr. Walsh

The Deputy is perfectly right.

Mr. Keane

That opinion is not substantiated by your conduct during the recent elections.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should use the third person.

Mr. Keane

It was a slip. I would like to hear from the Minister with relation to this famous statement made by Mr. Fletcher, chairman of the Irish Creamery Milk Suppliers' Association, that he was in conference with the Minister an hour before he made the statement in this House, and that the price of milk was increased by a decision of officials in the Civil Service. I know very well that the price of milk was increased as a result of political expediency. They had to do something to cool off Fletcher, Barry and Feely or if not they would become rampant again. They did not intend that their organisation should be allowed to slip. There are something about 670,000 dairy cows in the country and they rake in 1/- a cow. That is better than a ministerial salary.

Captain Cowan

Was that the purpose of the organisation—to rake in 1/- a cow?

Mr. Keane

If Deputy Cowan will confine himself to organising the Shelmaliers which he intends to use to protect life and property and for invasion purposes, I will answer that.

Captain Cowan

If you do not want to answer it, I do not want an answer.

Mr. Davin

He has been absorbed, himself and his army.

Mr. Keane

I should like to know from the Minister whether he went carefully into the costings that were presented to him by the responsible organisations who know how to carry out a costings experiment. If I am not making a mistake, the Minister did not see one of these costings. He just said 1/6, without giving any deliberation to it, a price that, as Deputy T. Walsh, he said on this side of the House was an uneconomic price. How does the Minister reconcile allowing only an increase of 1d. per gallon when according to the Minister for Education, speaking when he was plain Deputy Moylan, there was a profit of £46,000 made by Deputy Dillon on that transaction when he increased butter by 1d. per lb.? At the moment the present Administration is going to make a profit of £92,000 on that basis.

Mr. Walsh

There was no increase in the winter price.

Mr. Keane

It was made out of butter rationed at 12 ounces at Mitchelstown. You had butter ad lib as long as you paid the economic price for it.

Mr. Walsh

That did not affect it.

Mr. Keane

When the Minister is replying, will he say what he is going to do with the £46,000? Will he put it into subsidies for fertilisers for the farmers about whom he was moaning and groaning when he was on this side of the House? Will he send his officials on a tour of inspection to find out how many of the unfortunate farmers want subsidies for fertilisers? He has £46,000 to play with.

Mr. Walsh

No, he has not.

Mr. Keane

How did the Minister find the extra money to pay for the milk if there was no provision made for it in the Estimates? If he can find that money, he should also be able to find money for fertilisers. Here is a statement for the month of May in respect of a small farmer who had only three cows: Milk received, 2,376 lb., test 3.7; butter fat, 88 lb., price 1/5.39, separated milk, 3½d. per gallon. This farmer received a cheque for £17 19s. 11d. for three cows for the month of May, apart from supplying the needs of his own household and selling a share of the milk. In face of that can the Minister say that the dairy farmers of Munster and most of the creameries are serving a dual purpose? If they are not manufacturing cheese, if they are not manufacturing chocolate crumb or powdered milk, they are sending supplies to the creameries which are manufacturing them and are getting the benefit of the extra price. Any farmer who can get 1/8 per gallon for milk in the month of May is not so badly off, but when the Minister was over here as Deputy T. Walsh, that price, according to him, was not sufficient. We had a statement by that irresponsible individual from East Cork, Deputy Corry, that we should raise the price of milk to 2/10. The only costings of any consequence the Minister has in his Department are the costings of the Mitchelstown creameries under the directorship of Professor Murphy, which show a figure of 11.94d. taken over the year. The Minister has officials at his disposal to find out what the cost of production in summer time would be like.

I was amazed to hear of the extermination Order made the other day by the Minister in respect to the black pig. Apart from the value of the black pig as a source of food, there is a sentimental or traditional value attached to him. I remember when I was pretty young, imbued with a certain amount of principles, I read that the fight for freedom would be finished and that freedom would be attained in the valley of the black pig. We have not attained full freedom yet but the Minister decides to exterminate the black pig. I would ask the Minister at least to leave one in the valley and not do away with all of them. I do not know exactly what his value would be as a bacon pig. I know something about the large White York from the point of view of bacon production. He is the best pig that can be produced in this country from the point of view of the seller. I know very little as I say about the black pig, apart from what I have read, but I would appeal to the Minister not to exterminate him entirely, if only for sentimental considerations.

As regards the campaign—a scandalous campaign to say the least of it— which was carried on in regard to the foreign butter which was coming into this country, certain people maliciously defamed our rival producers in other countries. If the Minister for Agriculture knows anything about butter he will know, as Deputy Flanagan said, that it is only a matter of processing. A different method of processing is used in other countries from that which is used here. In Denmark the butter is manufactured from sour cream; so is all the farmers' butter here manufactured out of sour cream. I dare say the Minister knows that. There was propaganda about yellow butter radiated from this House which percolated throughout the whole country. I ask the Minister now does he intend to import more of this yellow butter, because a lot of people who swallowed the propaganda about the butter are very anxious now to get that butter again—even Dublin people. I thought that we should be above using that scandalous type of propaganda against two countries that are in competition with us in the manufacture of butter. Perhaps when negotiating a trade agreement with countries outside these two there may be repercussions on account of the attitude adopted here by an irresponsible Opposition which was only imbued with one intention, namely, to try and get back to the other side of the House as fast as possible.

I should like to ask the Minister is it his intention to maintain the 8 oz. butter ration for the winter and is it his intenton to maintain the present 12 oz. ration which milk suppliers are at present getting twice monthly from the Mitchelstown creamery. The butter is not sold ad lib as it was sold when Deputy Dillon was Minister for Agriculture at 3/8 a lb. It is now 4/-. Farmers who supply milk get two rations of 12 oz. per month. I cannot understand how a creamery like the Mitchelstown creamery can only afford to give a ration of 12 oz. of butter to milk suppliers. In answer to a question of mine in this House to the Minister for Industry and Commerce as to whether a new building at Mitchelstown creamery was for a cheese factory or a bacon factory, I was told that owing to the increased export trade for cheese the creamery had asked permission to forego the bacon factory and make it a cheese factory. If that is so, I should like to know why this creamery is confining the milk suppliers to a 12 oz. ration of butter and if we are exporting all our cheese to feed John Bull. If we are, that is treachery. I think that the accusation which the Minister made from this side of the House will act like a boomerang—he accused Deputy Dillon of treason—if we are going to send our milk products to feed an alien race and allow the children of tender age in Deputy Cowan's constituency to develop rickets for want of fats. I should like to know what is the Minister's intention with regard to that. Is he going to maintain the 12 oz. ration for the milk suppliers all the year round? I shall conclude by giving the Minister one piece of advice and that is to make the following morning offering: “I will not wilfully offend or easily be offended; for what I have done I will make amends and put up with what cannot be amended.”

Mr. Walsh

Might I intervene to say that two hours have been allotted for the Estimates for the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries?

An Ceann Comhairle

I intended to ask Deputies to allow the Minister 20 minutes or so to reply. Deputies should keep that in mind when making their contributions to the debate.

Mr. Davin

Is it not two hours from the end of question time?

An Ceann Comhairle

Yes, that is from 3.30 to 5.30, and the Vote for Fisheries is included in that.

Mr. Walsh

There are two hours allowed for the Agriculture Vote and the Fisheries Vote.

Mr. D. O'Sullivan

It is not my intention to refer to the Estimate in general as I am aware that there is an arrangement that it should be concluded within a certain time. There is, however, one matter which is of very urgent importance to which I wish to draw the Minister's attention. We in the dairying areas were considerably perturbed over the week-end when we read in the newspapers that a section of the Irish Creamery Managers' Association intends to take strike action as from next Saturday afternoon. A month ago notice was served to this effect and, failing an agreement being come to, we believe that this is now to take effect as from the 14th instant. I would draw the attention of the Minister and the House to the fact that an area of three counties is affected by this from which 240,000 gallons of milk are supplied daily to the Dairy Disposal Company, and that if the strike takes place it will entail in one single week a loss of £16,500. This would represent for one week alone a butter ration for 1,260,000 persons which indicates the gravity of the situation, and I would ask the Minister to see that conciliation machinery is set up with the utmost despatch in order to prevent this strike taking place. The greatest of goodwill has obtained between these creamery managers and the milk suppliers in these areas, and it would be a pity if anything should arise which would throw the whole of that important section of the agricultural industry into chaos.

It will be readily appreciated that farmers cannot keep over this commodity and that it is vitally important that the Minister should take prompt action to see that some conciliation machinery is set up to deal with this very urgent matter.

Mr. M. O'Reilly

I want to wish the present Minister good luck. In fact, I am inclined to offer him some sympathy because he has an extremely difficult task to face and it has been made more difficult by the activities of the Deputy who has just vacated the office of Minister. As proof of that, that Deputy, by a ruse, succeeded in going to the country undefeated. But for an adroit method of saving himself, he would have gone to the country as a defeated Minister.

Mr. D.J. O'Sullivan

What about the mother and child scheme?

Mr. M. O'Reilly

He would have gone to the country as a defeated Minister, which is not to be wondered at seeing that to-day we are left without butter. Milk must have been extremely scarce and therefore our whole creamery industry has been damaged by the activities of that Minister. There is more to it. We have not any bacon. Tourists are here looking for bacon and cannot get it.

Mr. Davin

They are the people who are eating it. It is the natives who are not getting it.

Mr. M. O'Reilly

We have neither butter nor bacon. These are some results of the activities of the ex-Minister.

Mr. Davin

I bet you had some this morning. Had you no bacon this morning?

Mr. M. O'Reilly

No.

Mr. Davin

I am surprised at that.

Mr. M. O'Reilly

I do not usually eat it but I will have it in a month's time when the weather is a bit cooler. I would advise every farmer to do his utmost to have his own bacon and if possible to avoid selling his pigs; to eat them himself.

Mr. D.J. O'Sullivan

The price is too inviting.

Mr. M. O'Reilly

I notice that the city population were not at all favourably disposed to an increase in the price of butter. That was due to propaganda indulged in by the Opposition. It is hardly fair or reasonable. I would ask the Minister if possible to see that loans will be available to farmers at a lower rate of interest. It may appear strange, after the activities of the best Minister in the world, but it is a fact that farmers are not at all in the strong position that we were led to believe they were in. Agricultural production has fallen very considerably.

Mr. D.J. O'Sullivan

Since 1947?

Mr. M. O'Reilly

From 1949. That is another argument to show that the ex-Minister was not as efficient as many members of the Opposition try to persuade us that he was. I would ask the Minister seriously to consider that point. Farmers will need money at a lower rate of interest. Their overhead costs have increased very considerably.

I would ask the Minister to decide on the policy that will be pursued as regards live stock. Most farmer Deputies are aware that in the last three, four or five years there has been a very considerable number of inferior cattle at all the fairs. I do not attribute that to Deputy Dillon's activities. By 1 o'clock in the day almost 30 per cent. of the cattle at the fair is unsaleable. There is a number of very poor calves. That is due, not to the fact that there was no hay but to the fact that there is something wrong with the breeding. Some time or other we must decide whether we will pursue a policy of exportation of high-class store cattle or a policy of milk production. I do not think that we will be able to carry on the two things together efficiently because a very large percentage of the young stock reaching Meath and other midland counties is extremely inferior and, owing to the arrangement that the ex-Minister made with the British, we have reached the stage when there is very definite high-class grading of cattle. The result is that nothing but the very best is purchased. Few cattle reach the top grade. Unfortunately, most of our cattle are only second grade and the price given for that grade is generally the price for exportable cattle. Therefore, I would urge on the Minister that he should very carefully consider that aspect of the problem. I say that from a national point of view. Our trade deficit is gradually creeping up and if the cattle trade could be increased, if we had more high-class stock to sell, that deficit would be reduced. As we stand at present, the deficit is on the increase and that means that the outlook is extremely bad.

Mr. MacBride

I would like to express a hope that the Minister will not do away with any of the existing schemes that were started by his predecessor, particularly the land rehabilitation project and the development schemes proposed for Connemara.

There are one or two points I would like to urge on the Minister relating to exports. The development of the export trade is vital to our economy. No export trade which is dependent entirely on one market can ever be satisfactory. I think it is within the power of the Department of Agriculture and of the Minister to foster very specially the development of an export trade to countries other than Britain. In present world conditions there is a market for agricultural produce, particularly carcase meat, and also for shell fish, outside the British market. I know that fishing has always been more or less the cinderella of the Department of Agriculture but I would urge on the Minister the importance of developing the export trade in shell fish both to the United States and Europe.

In relation to the development of the carcase meat export trade I would suggest to the Minister that one of the first essentials is the provision of at least two medium-sized refrigerator ships that could maintain a regular service between the ports of Dublin and Waterford and Bristol and London. I know that there had been some negotiations before the change of Government as to the provision of such ships. I would urge the Minister to pursue the possibilities to their uttermost limit. It is only by the provision of a regular service of this kind that it will be possible to develop a substantial export trade in carcase meat. The development of the carcase meat trade is, of course, important to us by reason of the by-products. We suffer from a permanent shortage of hides; we have to import hides, which seems anomalous having regard to our exports of cattle. The development of a carcase meat export trade would enable us to, at least, provide a larger proportion of our requirements in hides and also their by-products.

There is another matter to which I should like to draw the Minister's attention. The Minister will, no doubt, be aware that under the E.C.A. agreement there is a counterpart fund consisting of grant moneys. The last Government had considered the allocation of, at least, a proportion of these sums. One project which had been more or less generally agreed to was the provision of an agricultural or central agricultural institute, and also of extension courses. Quite a substantial sum of money had been earmarked for that purpose. This is a long-term policy, a long-term policy which, I think, would benefit the country and the agricultural population generally. I would, therefore, urge on the Minister the wisdom of pursuing the plans which had been made in that direction. I know, of course, that there are a great many difficulties. I also know that, naturally, when there is a large sum of money which is available free, all the different Departments are inclined to vie with each other in order to obtain the largest share of the money which is thus available. I trust that the Minister will fight his own corner in order to ensure that a sufficient sum will be made available from the E.C.A. grant counterpart fund for the provision of a central agricultural institute, such institute being, of course, independent of the Government and of the Department of Agriculture.

There is just one other matter I want to refer to. It is in relation to the increase in the price of butter. Deputy Keane, a few moments ago, said that there had been a lot of propaganda by the Opposition in relation to the price of butter.

Mr. Davin

The then Opposition he should have said.

Mr. Walsh

The present Opposition.

Mr. MacBride

The present Opposition Deputy Keane, I think, said.

Mr. Davin

He meant the then Opposition.

Mr. MacBride

I think he meant the present Opposition.

Mr. Davin

He would not tell a lie.

Mr. MacBride

I remember seeing a half-page advertisement in all the newspapers of this country, the daily newspapers, the weekly newspapers and the provincial newspapers, two days before the general election, a half-page advertisement of a housewife, quite a good-looking housewife, but perhaps not a very typical one. She had well-painted finger-nails, she had a worried expression on her face, she had a notebook in front of her and a pencil in her hand, and she was sketching on her forehead with the pencil. This was an advertisement published by the Fianna Fáil Party about rising prices. One of the first items on that advertisement was butter.

Mr. Walsh

Did she hear anything about the legacies that we have got?

Mr. MacBride

The electors were told by the Fianna Fáil Party that it was part of their policy not to increase the price of butter.

Mr. Walsh

It had been increased for them.

Mr. MacBride

Within four weeks of the publication of that advertisement, as soon as the public had been properly carted by the advertisement, the first act of the Fianna Fáil Government was to increase the price of butter, though they had published and had spent, I would say, not less than £20,000 on the publication of that half-page advertisement in every newspaper in the country, telling the people that Fianna Fáil were against an increase in the price of butter, and that if they did not vote for Fianna Fáil the price of butter would, in fact, be increased. Butter was the first item in the left-hand corner of that advertisement, printed in large block letters.

Mr. Walsh

A lot of the legacies that we got are to be published yet.

Mr. MacBride

I do not think that the Minister should really engage in a discussion on that issue. I think there is no answer to it. I think it was a dishonest piece of propaganda, having regard to the action of the Government since. I think that the Minister is a decent man, and I do not think that he should approve of methods of that kind. I think that, instead of interrupting or trying to justify it, he should acknowledge that it was wrong, but that circumstances forced him to increase the price of butter. It is a type of action which, I think, is bad for public life generally.

Mr. Walsh

We know what happened over the last three years and the deception that was practised.

Mr. MacBride

I do not think that the last Government ever published an advertisement in the last three years making promises which they broke.

Mr. Walsh

They did.

Mr. MacBride

I do not think so. This was a promise that was made in an advertisement four weeks before the price of butter was increased and two days before the general election, asking the people to vote for Fianna Fáil, on the understanding that the price of butter would not be increased.

Deputy Byrne and Deputy Kyne rose.

Mr. Walsh

The time allowed to me to reply is almost gone. Under the agreement, two hours were set aside for the conclusion of this debate and the Vote on Fisheries. Surely, I am entitled to a few minutes to reply to the arguments on this Vote.

Mr. Kyne

It is more important, I think, that a Labour man should get an opportunity of condemning the Minister.

Mr. Walsh

The arrangement made was to give two hours. One hour is almost gone.

Captain Cowan

Including the Vote on Fisheries?

Mr. Walsh

Yes, the Vote for the Department of Fisheries is included in the two hours.

Mr. Kyne

I will not take more than a few minutes.

Mr. Walsh

I think that the Minister should be allowed a few minutes to reply to the debate.

Mr. Cafferky

I do not think it is proper that there should be any curtailment of time on the discussion of such an important Estimate as the Estimate for the Department of Agriculture.

Mr. Walsh

The agreement made with regard to the time to be allowed was subscribed to by the people on the Deputy's side of the House.

Mr. Cafferky

We are going back to the country now for three months during which time we will be drawing our salaries. Why, therefore, should we not be permitted to speak on this Estimate?

Mr. Walsh

The Deputy should have put that before the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.

Mr. Cafferky

We do not know what they do behind secret doors.

Mr. Walsh

Well, that was the agreement that was reached.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I would ask Deputy Kyne to be as brief as possible, so that the Minister will have some time to reply.

Mr. Kyne

I will try to.

Mr. Byrne

I shall require only a few minutes.

Mr. Kyne

I am very glad to have an opportunity of drawing the Minister's attention to some extracts from a summary of the National Nutrition Survey which were given by Deputy Derrig in the House some time ago. The information which he gave was taken from page 16, paragraphs 3 and 5, of the Summary and Findings of the National Nutrition Survey. The first states:—

"The deficiency in calcium was mainly due to low consumption of milk and cheese."

That was one. Another was as regards children in Dublin:

"The main defects of the diets were an insufficient intake of milk and lack of variety among the poorer and larger families."

Does the Minister agree that an increase in the price of butter, and an increase in the price of milk with, I expect, a consequent increase in the price of cheese, is going to help the poorer and the larger families in the cities and towns of Ireland? Does he think it right that, if money is going to be given to the farmers, it should be given at the expense of the lives of the children of working people? Does he not know that he now has a colleague on that side of the House, Deputy Dr. Browne, who has been appealing for sufficient fats, milks and foods for the working people of this country so that they might not contract tuberculosis? Had it not been thrown at the same Deputy Dr. Browne across this House, when he was in the Clann na Poblachta Party, that it was his case that malnutrition was the cause of the troubles of the people of Ireland? In view of that, how can the Minister stand up and talk of broken promises when the working people in the City of Dublin who, admittedly, are already undernourished in milks and cheese, will have to face in April, 1952, as a result of an Order made by him, a further increase of 4d. per gallon?

Is the Minister aware that the very same survey pointed out that a child under 15 years of age needed two pints of milk per day, that an expectant, or nursing, mother needed two pints of milk per day and that an adult needed one pint of milk per day? It would not take a very great mathematician to work out what is the annual levy that the family has to pay by way, not of cash, but of reduction of their consumption of butter and milk so that the promises made by the Fianna Fáil Government to the farmers of this country could be kept. I would prefer, and all the Deputies listening to me would prefer, that we should pay the farmers of this country as fair a price and as high a price as possible for milk. I believe that the solution of the farmers' difficulty is not in an increased price, which would be reflected in the increased price of butter, but in better production by adopting the method advocated by the previous Minister for Agriculture—the gradual substitution of the 500-gallon cow for the present 350- or 400-gallon one. If we in the industrial world seek an increase, we are told that we have reached the peak and that if we need further money to improve our standard of living we must produce more. Should not the same be said of the farmer? Should it not be pointed out to him that he is working with the tools of his grandparents and that only by modernising his farm, by employing up-to-date methods and by improving his herd can he win for himself and for his family their just entitlement—a fair living?

I feel that I have justified my position as a Labour Deputy by the above remarks. However, there is one point of local importance in my constituency to which I would like to draw the Minister's attention. That is in connection with the export, or the sale on the home market, of very early potatoes. In Ballinacourty, Dungarvan, early epicures are grown for the export market in Great Britain. Smallholders endeavour very hard to make a living on a very limited amount of land by growing these potatoes. This year, due to the late season, these people found that when their crop had come to maturity there was a very limited time left during which the export market in Great Britain was open. They appealed to the Minister to use his good offices with the British Government with a view to extending that period. That was done, and I desire to give full credit to the Minister for his action. Unfortunately, the extension was insufficient and it was found that, due to no fault of this Government, but because of circumstances over which they had no control, the main bulk of the early potato crop was left in the hands of those small farmers. I suggest that, in future years, steps should be taken by the Government to guarantee at least a minimum price for homegrown early potatoes. I find it difficult to believe, in view of the price charged for potatoes in Dublin shops at the present time, that, if the Government had purchased the surplus potatoes from the growers in Ballinacourty, they could not readily have found a market for them in Dublin or in the vicinity of Dublin. This transaction would have entailed very little loss for the Government and would have proved a considerable saving to the inhabitants of Dublin. I appeal to the Minister to plan in future years so that the potato growers of Ballinacourty and similar areas such as Rush will at least be assured of the minimum price.

Mr. Maher

I do not propose to detain the House very long, nor do I intend to go into much detail. I would, first of all, like, as the youngest member of the Minister's Party, to congratulate him from a very full heart on taking over the Department of Agriculture. I would further like to congratulate him for taking full cognisance of the plight of the dairy farmers and for his generous effort to meet them by giving them a very necessary increase for a very necessary product, namely, milk.

I do not wish to go into detail, but I believe the Minister is conscious he has taken over a very important Department. He has taken over our main artery, so to speak, in taking over the Department of Agriculture. I have no doubt that under his leadership the Department of Agriculture will flourish and will operate to the advantage of all sections of our people. I am sure it is the object of all members of this House to bring about adjustments that will generally raise the living standards of all sections of our people.

The agricultural community is the backbone of this nation, and if all other sections are to flourish it is necessary that every effort should be made to put the agricultural community in a prosperous position. I have no doubt that that will happen under the leadership of the present Minister.

We all have the desire to improve our lot generally as a people. Many ways are suggested towards this end. In my short span I have heard many false doctrines preached in an attempt to convince people that it can be attained by certain ways. In my view there is only one avenue open to us if we are to endeavour seriously to attain that end. That avenue is open to the Minister for Agriculture by making the people engaged on the land more prosperous and, by price inducement, enabling them to step-up their production. If we are to make ourselves better off we can only do so by more production per man per acre.

I would, therefore, ask the Minister, by his policy as Minister for Agriculture, to induce agricultural workers, and the farmers by attractive prices, to produce more. I have heard revised monetary systems expounded, false doctrines, and have seen printing presses brought into play, and so on. Nevertheless, I do say there is only one avenue—more production per man per acre.

If the Minister is to discharge his duties effectively, he must get the co-operation of all sections of this House. It is only with the co-operation of all members that the desired goal can be attained. I am confident that such co-operation will be forthcoming from the younger members in particular. I have purposely refrained from speaking here on a few occasions on certain items because of the strained atmosphere that existed. Excuses can be put forward on behalf of the older members that cannot be tendered for us. I, therefore, as a younger member, confidently appeal to the younger members to give their wholehearted co-operation to the Minister in his very difficult task. As I have said, the Department of Agriculture is the most important Department of our State. I have no doubt that, with the policy and the leadership of Deputy Walsh, not alone will the farming community gain but the whole people of Ireland, as a community, will benefit by his exertions in the very near future. I congratulate him and wish him a long life and a very successful one as Minister.

Mr. Byrne

As a Dublin representative, I could not allow the opportunity to pass without voicing my protest on behalf of the people of Dublin against the increase in price of butter brought about by the increase in the price of milk. One of my colleagues on the Labour Benches quoted from the report of the nutritional survey which was presented to this House some time ago and which we read with alarm. It told us that the children of the working classes were not getting sufficient milk or butter and the increase in the price of milk, and consequent increase in the price of butter, is not going to ease the situation or bring about the improvements which that report would desire to have brought about. Before the elections, the members of the Government made a very vicious attack on the inter-Party Government on the ground that the cost of living was going up every day, but the first action of the Minister on getting into office was to increase the price of butter on the people. It will have a very serious effect on the people, because it is an increase in the cost of living and I think it is a wrong action. The country was led to believe by advertisement, speeches and innuendo that the new Government was going to reduce the cost of living. Instead, their first move —evidently in fulfilment of a promise to somebody; who it is, I do not know, but they were very quick to fulfil the promise—was to increase the price of milk in order to hold these people.

The schoolmeals committee of Dublin City give out 45,000 small bottles of milk and 45,000 sandwiches per day, and the sandwiches are buttered. The committee has recently been informed that they will not get the subsidised flour in the sandwiches they give to these children. That, again, is an increased expense on the ratepayers because the municipal authority, of which many Deputies are members, will not reduce the supply of sandwiches or milk which is given to children attending these schools. The sandwiches made from subsidised flour should continue to be given.

This is the last opportunity for fully three months that any member of the House will have of talking about butter, milk or meat, because the House is adjourning until the end of October within a week or so, and what I am afraid of is that during the adjournment, when the people will have nobody to voice their claims or grievances something will happen in the shape of further increases. There is a particular matter which is causing a good deal of worry to butchers in the City of Dublin. They have to go to the market and buy meat at prices which enable them to sell at the controlled price, and these prices are going up every day. The butchers say they cannot continue to sell unless the Government step in and buy. If the Government would appoint agents to go to the market and buy cattle——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is a matter for Industry and Commerce.

Breanndán Mac Fheorais

Maybe he is going to talk about the price of cattle.

Mr. Byrne

It is a question of foreign buyers coming in and buying cattle at much higher prices than the controlled price.

Mr. Walsh

You do not want the farmers to get the price for cattle now.

Mr. Byrne

This has a good deal to do with agriculture.

Mr. D.J. O'Sullivan

It is a tribute to the 1948 Agreement.

Mr. Walsh

Does the Deputy want to reduce the price of cattle?

Mr. Byrne

I am not Minister for Agriculture. I feel that a Government subsidy should be given to enable the things the Government want done to be done. As I said, my reason for speaking was to protest against the increase in the price of butter which has been imposed on town and city dwellers and to draw the attention of the Minister to the fact that subsidised flour is not in future to be used in the sandwiches which are given to schoolchildren.

Mr. Briscoe

You stood for that during the past three years.

Mr. Davin

Look at the Minister's adviser, Deputy Briscoe.

Mr. Byrne

This is his first appearance for a week and he comes in now to interrupt. I want to enter my protest against the increase in the price of butter.

Mr. Cafferky rose.

Mr. Walsh

I have asked three times already for an opportunity to reply to some of the points which have been raised.

Mr. Cafferky

I think that, in fairness, the Minister should give way. He could allow us to speak and take as long as he wishes himself.

Mr. Walsh

There is an agreement that we finish at 25 minutes to six.

Mr. Cafferky

I travelled 120 miles to-day to speak on this Estimate and I am now being denied the right to speak.

Mr. Walsh

Your Party has already agreed to finish the debate at the particular time.

Mr. Cafferky

I do not care what my Party or the Minister's Party did. It is not right that we should be about to retire for three months and that Deputies should be denied the right to speak on this Estimate.

Breanndán Mac Fheorais

It is intended to finish both Fisheries and Agriculture about 5.30 p.m. Will there be a statement on Fisheries or does the Minister intend to take the full half-hour dealing with Agriculture?

Mr. Walsh

I will have to give some statement on Fisheries also.

Breanndán Mac Fheorais

There is only a half an hour left for the whole lot.

Mr. O'Hara

There is one question I want to ask. Would the Minister——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy has already spoken on this Estimate.

Mr. Walsh

When introducing the Estimate, I made it clear that I was not responsible for it. In any event, this Estimate has been debated for ten or 12 hours already. Deputy Flanagan spent about eight hours on it.

Mr. Davin

For how long did Deputy Corry speak?

Mr. Walsh

During the course of the debate before the change of Government, we gathered that everything was grand and rosy, but in the past couple of months, everything has changed considerably and materially, since we came over here——

Mr. O. Flanagan

The price of butter has changed.

Mr. Walsh

——notwithstanding the fact that there has not been one iota of change in the Estimate. It is the same Estimate as was put before the House two months ago.

Mr. O. Flanagan

You are wrong.

Mr. Walsh

Where is the change? There is no change in the Estimate and it is the Estimate we are discussing.

Mr. O. Flanagan

Butter has gone up in price.

Mr. Walsh

Some questions were raised to which I intend to try to reply, not in any great detail, but so far as I can. Deputy Rooney raised a question about the export of horses. The export of horses, either alive or in carcase form, is a very difficult and thorny question. If they are sent out in carcase form, it means technicians and more equipment, but this is a matter I intend to examine. He also raised the question of hides. The differential he has mentioned here, from 10d. to 4/6 is quite right—35 pence. There is a big gap there, but the amount of money got from hides and carcase beef is helping to bridge that gap.

Deputy Kyne mentioned the price of milk being increased in April, 1952, by 4d. a gallon. That is wrong. There has been an adjustment of price regarding April but it will not affect the consumer in any way. That is a matter between the consumer and the wholesaler.

Mr. Kyne

Can the Minister assure the House it will not be passed on?

Mr. Walsh

It will not. The adjustment of price will not permit it to be passed on.

Regarding ware potatoes being sent to the alcohol factories, an arrangement has been made whereby the farmers will get an increased price, which will be determined at the end of the season when the transport and other costs are taken into account and a flat rate will be given.

The egg and poultry prices depend on agreements made with England. At the moment, our officials are in England negotiating a price. I would remind Deputies that when Deputy Dillon was on this side of the House he neglected to make any agreement for 1952. The present agreement terminates in January, 1952, but no provision had been made for the sale of eggs or poultry, or even old hens, in 1952. We are making agreements and will try to make better ones than were made heretofore.

In regard to the price of milk, Deputies on that side must remember the attitude of Fianna Fáil, not now but 12 months ago. There is nothing political in this question and it is not one of political expediency. Twelve months ago, a motion was put down here by Deputy Cogan and Deputy O'Reilly, that an increased price be given. I argued from that side of the House then that the price should be increased—so also did other Deputies —and we tried to convince the Minister of that time that an increase was justified. We went so far as to walk into the Lobby to vote for the increase. Prior to the election and during it, we promised the farmers that if we were returned—not to office, as we did not know at the time, prior to the election, whether this Coalition Government was going to last any longer than last May——

Mr. Davin

Which Coalition?

Mr. Walsh

Your Coalition.

Mr. Davin

Or yours? He is gone now. The boss has gone out.

Mr. Walsh

No, the Coalition that is splitting up. We promised we would give the increase and campaigned for it, and at the first opportunity we implemented the promise, as Fianna Fáil always does. We increased the price and we stand over it, as we believe it was justified.

Mr. D. O'Sullivan

Fletcher does not think so.

Mr. Walsh

When Deputy Dillon was Minister for Agriculture, he insulted the farmers by offering 1d. per gallon and no increase on the winter price. Deputies over there do not realise the difference between the production costs of milk in winter and summer months. Neither did Deputy Dillon know that it costs more to produce a gallon of milk in winter than in summer.

Mr. D. O'Sullivan

We all know that.

Mr. Walsh

We took cognisance of that and increased the price and placed it on the same basis as from 1947. I was amazed to hear the nauseating statements from that side regarding farmers' prices. We heard Deputy O'Higgins and Deputy Flanagan. I wonder how many times a week they milk cows—but they can drink it.

Mr. O. Flanagan

Does the Minister milk cows?

Mr. Walsh

He does.

Mr. O. Flanagan

He should be ashamed of himself. He should be paying an agricultural worker.

Mr. Walsh

Both Deputies represent an agricultural constituency where the farmers got the increase.

Mr. Davin

What about Deputy Briscoe? Does he milk cows?

Mr. Walsh

As many as Deputy Davin.

Mr. Davin

He is your adviser.

Mr. Walsh

I stand over that price— and adequate prices for all farmers. As far as Fianna Fáil is concerned, the farmers can rest assured that we will give adequate prices for agricultural produce.

Breanndán Mac Fheorais

What about the price of butter?

Mr. Walsh

I will deal with it in a moment. We have heard Deputy Flanagan and others criticising the Estimates and Fianna Fáil even before they implemented one item in the Book of Estimates. We heard the story of the cattle—we heard that story before—but we did not hear Deputy Flanagan speak on that subject when he was debating Deputy Dillon's Estimate. We did not hear him talk about the price of cattle lost in Luggacurran. I have told Deputy Flanagan and Deputy O'Higgins that I stand——

Mr. O. Flanagan

There were others.

Mr. Walsh

They were the principal critics. In regard to the price of butter, the Exchequer has contributed £400,000 in order to subsidise the price in this case. The consumer is asked to contribute 2d. We have here for over 12 months an unrationed commodity, butter. What price was fixed for it? I heard Deputy Dillon, when he was Minister, boasting of the consumption of butter and the amount that was consumed off the ration, but there was no question then from Deputy Flanagan or any of the others about the increased price that had to be paid for unrationed butter. It was perfectly all right when the Coalition Government did it.

Mr. Davin

The workers were not buying it.

Mr. Walsh

Fianna Fáil was criticised because they gave that increased price to the people producing the raw material. There is an increase which means a 1d. per head per week and no more. Do the people of Dublin not realise that it would be much better for them—if it is possible for us to produce it, and I hope it is possible—to get Irish butter, even at a 1d. per head per week, than to import foreign butter. We imported foreign butter last year. We know the type it was and we know what the people of Dublin said about it.

Mr. O. Flanagan

What was wrong with it?

Mr. Walsh

I will read the report of my Department about it. When I went into the Department, the first thing I asked for was a report on the foreign butter.

Mr. Davin

Danish or New Zealand?

Mr. Walsh

This is the report given by officials of my Department:—

"In order to maintain the 8 oz. ration of butter and off-ration butter sales, it was necessary to import New Zealand and Danish butter. Negotiations for such purchases were commenced in November, 1950, by the Butter Marketing Committee. The quantities of imported butter were: New Zealand, 40,000 cwt.; Danish, 50,000 cwt.; making a total of 90,000 cwt.

The stock of this Danish butter in store on the evening of the 16-6-1951, was 2,794 cwt., value £50,000.

Since the 7th of May 640 packages representing 338 cwt. of this Danish butter have been rejected by the firms in the butter trade and the general public including creameries in Sligo, Cavan, Monaghan and other counties.

At present there are 258 packages representing approximately 130 cwt. of such rejected butter lying in one of the Dublin cold stores. Another sample of this butter had a ‘dirty flavour, bad odour and was badly discoloured'."

That was one of the legacies I got when I went into office and I am trying to ensure that the Dublin people will not get that again. One of the reasons that I have increased the price of milk is that legacy of rotten, stinking butter.

Mr. A.P. Byrne

The rotten, stinking campaign conducted by Fianna Fáil is what caused the rejection of the butter.

Mr. Walsh

Fianna Fáil was responsible for the bad smell?

Breanndán Mac Fheorais

It was nearly as bad as the stuff Paddy Smith left last time.

Dr. O'Higgins

I want to call the Minister's attention to the fact that there may be diplomatic representations with regard to this feature.

Mr. Walsh

You are wrong if you think that by talking like that you will stop me from telling the public the type of business carried on by my Department prior to my going in there.

Dr. O'Higgins

Proof of that may be had.

Mr. Walsh

It was because of bad management and bad supervision that it happened.

Mr. O. Flanagan

The bad stink?

Mr. Walsh

The Danes were asked to produce butter which they were not in the habit of producing, sweet cream butter, and because their technicians had not the knowledge for its proper management it was not as good as it should be. It was due to the management and supervision in the Department that that was done and the Minister was responsible for that.

Mr. Davin

Could I ask a fair question?

Dr. O'Higgins

The Minister is condemning his own Department.

Mr. Davin

Would the Minister not agree or inquire whether the butter got into this State as a result of the failure of the powers that were—whoever they might be—to provide proper refrigeration and shipping conditions?

Mr. Walsh

No, not at all.

Mr. W. Murphy

Will the Minister tell us what sort of butter was in cold storage when James Dillon took over?

Mr. Walsh

I am telling you what sort was there when I took over.

Mr. W. Murphy

We would like to hear something, too, about the sort that was there when James Dillon took over there.

Breanndán Mac Fheorais

It must be a failing of all Ministers to leave legacies.

Mr. Walsh

Deputy Dillon never lost an opportunity of telling the people things, so if the Deputy goes to him he will tell him.

I would like to remind the House that the Exchequer is already subsidising butter to the extent of between £3,000,000 and £3,500,000. Are we asking too much of the consumers of this country when we ask them to give a chance to our milk producers to go ahead and produce more milk and receive adequate prices? I believe that I am not too far wrong in saying that this will help considerably towards increased production of milk and, consequently, increased production of good palatable butter.

Mr. Allen

That subsidy goes to the consumer.

Mr. Walsh

Yes, that subsidy goes towards reducing the price of butter. The economic price is 4/- per lb., but the consuming public buys butter at 3/- and the difference is made up by subsidy.

Mr. Davin

Why not raise the whole lot by way of subsidy in the same way as you do for the flour millers?

Mr. Walsh

Another question in which a lot of our people have been very interested is compulsory tillage. Compulsory tillage was not introduced by Fianna Fáil in peace time and neither should it be necessary, but it is necessary in war time, and even when the Coalition Government were in office preparations and provisions were made for the introduction of compulsory tillage during war time. Deputy Dillon as Minister announced on one occasion anyway that he would introduce it in case of war. I quote the report which appeared in the Irish Independent on the 30th September, 1948, of a speech which the Minister made in Clonmel at a meeting of the South Tipperary Agricultural Committee:—

"In the event of war the Minister said that this country was carrying 12 months' supply of wheat and a survey was being made at the moment of the whole tillage area of the country so that it would be possible in 48 hours, if there was war, to tell each individual farmer the type of crop he would be required to grow on his land.

This was entirely different from the procedure in the last war, when every farmer was required to grow the maximum quantity of wheat irrespective of the varying qualities of lands. The farmers would be under compulsion so long as the emergency lasted, but when the rest of the community were no longer under compulsion the farmer would no longer be under compulsion.

‘When I start compelling ople,' said the Minister it will be a very detailed and drastic procedure because you will grow what you are told and grow it right."

That was the compulsion that Deputy Dillon had in mind. If there is a war there must be compulsion because the people who are loudest in their condemnation in this House of compulsory tillage are the very people for whom we must introduce compulsion in order to save them from starvation. I have heard Deputies Corish, Flanagan and O'Higgins, not one of whom produce a lb. of wheat for themselves but who eat as many loaves as anyone else——

Breanndán Mac Fheorais

All of us cannot be farmers. Do not talk nonsense.

Mr. Walsh

It would be necessary for the Government to introduce compulsory wheat-growing so as to ensure that these people would not die of starvation.

Mr. O. Flanagan

That is terrible nonsense.

Mr. Walsh

You are the people for whom we must introduce it, the people who live on the farmers. The farmers do not want it as they can produce enough for themselves but in order to keep you alive we must introduce it.

Breanndán Mac Fheorais

Farmers cannot produce a pair of boots.

Mr. Walsh

Quite so, so why talk about it? Why go all over the country deceiving the farmers with your slogans? "Bury the plough," was one of the slogans produced during the last election.

Breanndán Mac Fheorais

One of the slogans Fianna Fáil had during the last election was that the price of butter was too high.

Mr. Walsh

We said no such thing. We are talking now about compulsory tillage and the reasons why we must introduce it. I can assure the House that there is no necessity to introduce compulsory tillage if the Government give an adequate price to the farmers. One of the planks in our platform is to give guaranteed prices. We will not pursue the policy that has been in operation for the last three years; we will get away from that. We are not going to leave a record like this at the end of our term of office: the pig population down and our production of poultry and eggs dropped. We had last year in this country 644,000 pigs; they have dropped this year to 531,000. We had, last year, 12,787,000 fowl: that total has dropped now to 10,739,000. Last year the total of ducks, geese and turkeys was 1,232,000; now the figure is 1,031,000. In addition, there has been a drop of 500,000 acres in tillage and we have lost 28,000 people from the land. We are not going to pursue that policy.

Dr. O'Higgins

Will the Minister give us the numbers for 1947?

Mr. Walsh

I have given the House the figures from last year to this year. They give a very clear indication of how this country is drifting and how it would continue to drift if we were to pursue the policy that was being pursued by our predecessors in office. We have dropped our tillage by 500,000 acres and we have lost over 28,000 people from the land.

Mr. Davin

Where did they go to?

Mr. Walsh

A considerable proportion went to the city.

Mr. Davin

To the factories.

Mr. Walsh

The biggest industry you have in Dublin is the house-building industry for the people who are leaving the land. If we were to pursue the agricultural policy that was pursued by the previous Government, we would have old and young living in the country—the infirm and the weak. We would have a denuded land with a swollen head in Dublin and a withered body. We are going to keep as many people as possible on the land and we are going to ensure that this country will produce adequate supplies of food, if possible, for the people living in this country of ours.

Breanndán Mac Fheorais

You are going to raise the farm prices.

Mr. Walsh

We have made a start. Please God, we shall be able to give an adequate price that will ensure more food and encourage our farmers to produce more.

Dr. O'Higgins

The Minister gave us the figures in respect of poultry, ducks, turkeys and so forth for the year 1950-51. Can he give us now the figures in respect of 1947?

Mr. Corry

The Deputy should have those figures himself. He is in this House long enough.

Question put.

The Committee divided: Tá, 65; Níl, 18.

Tá

• Allen, Denis.
• Bartley, Gerald.
• Beegan, Patrick.
• Blaney, Neil T.
• Boland, Gerald.
• Brady, Philip A.
• Brady, Seán.
• Breathnach, Cormac.
• Breen, Dan.
• Brennan, Joseph.
• Brennan, Thomas.
• Breslin, Cormac.
• Briscoe, Robert.
• Buckley, Seán.
• Burke, Patrick.
• Butler, Bernard.
• Carter, Frank.
• Childers, Erskine.
• Cogan, Patrick.
• Colley, Harry (Henry).
• Collins, James J.
• Corry, Martin J.
• Cowan, Peadar.
• Crowley, Honor Mary.
• Crowley, Tadhg.
• Cunningham, Liam.
• Davern, Michael J.
• Derrig, Thomas.
• Duignan, Peadar.
• Fahy, Frank.
• Fanning, John.
• Flanagan, Seán.
• Flynn, John.
• Flynn, Stephen.
• ffrench-O'Carroll, Michael.
• Gallagher, Colm.
• Gilbride, Eugene.
• Harris, Thomas.
• Hillery, Patrick J.
• Hilliard, Michael.
• Humphreys, Francis.
• Kennedy, Michael J.
• Killilea, Mark.
• Little, Patrick J.
• Lynch, Jack (Cork Borough).
• McCann, John.
• MacCarthy, Seán.
• McEllistrim, Thomas.
• MacEntee, Seán.
• McGrath, Pa.
• Maguire, Patrick J.
• Maher, Peadar.
• Moylan, Seán.
• O Briain, Donnchadh.
• O'Reilly, Matthew.
• Ormonde, John.
• O'Sullivan, Ted.
• Rice, Bridget M.
• Ryan, James.
• Ryan, Mary B.
• Sheridan, Michael.
• Smith, Patrick.
• Traynor, Oscar.
• Walsh, Laurence J.
• Walsh, Thomas.

Níl

• Belton, Jack.
• Byrne, Alfred.
• Byrne, Alfred Patrick.
• Cafferky, Dominick.
• Corish, Brendan.
• Davin, William.
• Desmond, Daniel.
• Everett, James.
• Flanagan, Oliver J.
• Keane, Seán.
• Keyes, Michael.
• Kyne, Thomas A.
• MacBride, Seán.
• Murphy, Michael P.
• Norton, William.
• O'Hara, Thomas.
• Spring, Dan.
• Tully, John.

Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Donnchadh Ó Briain and Killilea; Níl: Deputies Mac Fheorais and Spring.

Question declared carried.