There are 40 minutes of time left.
Committee on Finance. - Vote 50—Industry and Commerce (Resumed).
What does the Minister want?
Five minutes.
Is that all the Minister wants?
I will take the 40 if I am given them, but I will settle for five minutes.
In speaking on this group of Estimates on Thursday last, I was dealing with the question of the supply of further generating capacity by the Electricity Supply Board. The Minister, in introducing the Estimate, criticised the policy of the Electricity Supply Board in basing a certain portion of the generating capacity on imported fuels, and he expressed the hope that there would be general acceptance of the view that the future programme should be based on native fuels and that the policy would become a national rather than a Party policy. Nobody on any side of the House will disagree with the outlook of the Minister or the views he has expressed, but translating these views into practice is another matter.
Deputies may not be aware that the total supply of electricity from hydro plant on the present basis of demand means that, in 1956, 37½ per cent. of the peak load can be supplied from hydro stations and the balance has to be supplied from steam stations fired by coal, turf or oil. The capital construction of steam stations is low and they can be built quickly, but the running costs are relatively high, due to the variable costs of whatever fuel is used. On the other hand, the capital construction of hydro plant is considerable, but there, because of the availability of water supplies, the running cost is relatively low. As I understand the position from the information available, the anticipated maximum output of all the hydro stations is a total of 750,000,000 units. That is on the basis of 300,000,000 units from the Shannon; 225,000,000 units from the Erne in full development; 75,000,000 units from the Lee; 50,000,000 from the Liffey; and 100,000,000 units from all other hydro schemes which may be put into operation. It is possible that, with an additional set at the Shannon, a further 25,000,000 units can be added to the maximum output, but that, I think, is the most optimistic estimate of the fuel capacity of an additional set. On that assumption and on the basis of the present rate of demand of 1,000,000,000 units per year, it means that, in 1956, the supply of power from steam-generating plants will run about 14,000,000 units per year.
On the basis of developing the four turf-burning stations—that is, the existing station at Portarlington and the proposed stations at Allenwood and Ferbane and some other station in the west of Ireland—the total additional units that can be provided from these stations is 625,000,000. On the assumption that 3 lb. of turf is required to produce a unit, it will require a total of 840,000 tons of turf. That is a much bigger proposition than Deputies realise and a much bigger undertaking than would appear at first glance. Up to the moment, the maximum quantity of turf that has been provided by Bord na Móna for this purpose is 250,000 tons. It is true that the White Paper published in 1946 envisaged a programme of 1,000,000 tons of turf per annum, but allowing for the time which must elapse before the drainage of these bogs is carried out and all the other preparatory work that requires to be completed before the bogs are available for development, the problem of providing 800,000 or 1,000,000 tons of turf a year is a very big job and a job that requires not merely planning but a very large labour force in addition.
The other factor that must be taken into account is that the stations will have to be built on bogs sufficiently large to supply the quantity in immediate proximity to the station. It is easy enough to talk about burning turf in turf-fired stations, but that turf cannot be brought from distant places and must be readily available at the site at which it is proposed to construct the station. Therefore, on the assumption, and it is a reasonable assumption, that demand here will grow from the present demand of 1,000,000,000 units to 2,000,000,000 units in 1956 and possibly to 3,000,000,000 units in 1960, the problem of providing further generating capacity is one that presents practical difficulties, difficulties that the mere supply of turf in bogs cannot overcome. Not merely must we utilise the turf available by providing turf-fired stations, but there is no way out of building stations using imported fuels, whether coal or oil.
I was somewhat surprised at the Minister's statement in the course of the debate last week, in which he said, as given at column 1520 of Volume 126, No. 10:—
"I want to express here a complete disagreement with that programme. Unfortunately, however, nothing much can be done about it now. If I could, I would reverse it."
If the two additional stations that have been constructed, at Dublin and Cork, were not constructed, further restrictions on the supply and use of electricity would have been necessary; and, however objectionable and however much we may regret the fact, and however unfortunate it is that imported fuels have to be used, it is unavoidable. Even allowing for the maximum development of turf-fired stations and the maximum development of hydro-electric stations, it still will be necessary to have additional steam-fired stations—and the only fuels available for those are oil or coal.
In view of the fact that this debate is somewhat curtailed, I do not want to go into great detail on this matter, but I feel that the Minister was less than fair to the Electricity Supply Board. I had close contact with this problem in the Department of Industry and Commerce and I recognise the difficulties that have to be surmounted, the difficulties which have been created by circumstances outside the control of the Electricity Supply Board and outside the control of Bord na Móna.
The fact is that up to the present it has not been possible to secure at the peak demand sufficient quantities of turf at the first station that was erected. That is not the fault of Bord na Móna, as they have no more control over the variable factor of the weather than has the Electricity Supply Board over the effect of a dry year. These problems must be faced in a realistic manner and must be faced in the light of the technical information and of the circumstances that the Electricity Supply Board and Bord na Móna have to surmount.
The Minister referred to the fact that he was in favour of dispersing the generating capacity rather than having it congregated in one or two areas. I think generally there is agreement with that view, but there is a loss in transmission if stations are erected far from areas in which the greater demand is felt; and not merely is there a loss in transmission but there are the other difficulties of having staff available and having the plant within easy access of ports. Steam plant requires to be overhauled at fairly frequent intervals and if it has to be carried from the port to a rural area remote from port facilities, the added cost must be borne by the company.
In that connection, a good deal of attention has been focussed recently on the increased charges which have become necessary, arising out of the increases in the cost of fuels. A number of people expressed surprise at the fact that these increased charges have to be met at a time when electricity is rationed. It may be possible to iron out these increases over a period and if it is possible I hope that steps will be taken to effect some sort of arrangement that will place the cost over a period rather than have it imposed for a short time.
The substantial rise in the cost of imported fuels has placed the same burden on the Electricity Supply Board as it has placed on domestic consumers or on any other undertaking that uses imported fuel. Although it may seem unreasonable, the rate of demand this year has been far greater than in any other year, due to the high price of other fuels and their scarcity, as well as, of course, to the protracted winter.
The problem of providing further generating capacity is one that will require careful consideration, but I think that knowing the full facts of the position, the Electricity Supply Board have taken the only course open to them. It may be that before the war when supplies were more plentiful and when opportunities of acquiring plant and equipment offered more freely than they do now, steps could have been taken. I think it is futile at this stage to attempt to place the responsibility on the Electricity Supply Board, because responsibility for that action might lie equally with the Government of the day as with the Electricity Supply Board. The only other matter in this connection that must be taken into account is that bogs have a maximum development. They have a limited life. Most people are unaware that the bogs on which it is proposed to develop and erect a steam station have a maximum life of 25 years. It may be that people take the view when that period of time elapses the problem can be dealt with then. I suppose it is reasonable enough to take that view, but I think that on the whole the steps that have been taken have been the only ones available to the Electricity Supply Board and to Bord na Móna. That company has also tackled the problem vigorously and energetically, but it is a much bigger problem than might appear at first glance.
In the course of this debate the Minister dealt with a number of other matters and, while the time is limited, I want to say a few words about a number of them. He referred to the fact that the Tourist Board had suspended the grading system. He said that he had asked for a full report on the matter but that, pending a further announcement, it was not to be taken as final that the system at present in operation was definitely suspended. I must say that I think that that is a matter which should be left to the Tourist Board. I take the view—a view which is shared by the Minister —that when a State board is established the internal arrangements, subject to general directions on policy, should be left to the board. As I understood it, that is the Minister's view on this matter as well. During the course of a discussion on the Tourist Traffic Bill, in 1939, the Minister said, the reference is column 1289, Official Dáil Debates of June, 1939:—
"It is, perhaps, not worth while having a debate as to which is the more important: registration or grading. The position is that when a premises is on the register it is open for business, and the proprietor can carry on hotel business in the premises. The question of grading is a different question altogether. On that question, I listened very carefully to the representations that were made to me in favour of having some sort of appeal board, but I felt that it would be impracticable. I came to the conclusion, when it is a question of grading, that you must give the board certain arbitrary powers— I recognise that they are arbitrary powers—if the thing is to work properly. I cannot say that the board will not in practice make its grading on the basis of price, as is done elsewhere, but I think we must leave that matter very largely to the discretion of the board."
I agree with that view. I think it should be left to the board. It may be that it appears now, having had a system of grading in operation for a number of years, that it is a radical step to suspend grading altogether. As I understand the policy of the Tourist Board, it is based on the knowledge that the board has not available sufficient technical personnel to operate a proper efficient grading system and that the system that was in operation necessitated too many hotels being inspected by an individual in too short a time. I think, therefore, that any interference with the board in a matter of this nature is undesirable and it should be left to the discretion of the board.
On the general question of tourist policy, I was disappointed that the Minister did not indicate agreement with the proposals which were made by the publication of the amending Bill this year. The fact that there was an election prevented that Bill being passed into law. I believe there is general agreement that the financial provisions which it was proposed to make available to the Tourist Board should be made available and that the board should not be restricted in any way nor prevented from embarking upon the full development policy that was outlined in the directions given to them when the board was reconstituted last year. These instructions were based upon a very exhaustive examination of the whole tourist policy in the country. They were based also on reports which were made available from investigations carried out by a number of technical personnel which came to the country under the auspices of the E.C.A. administration. Under these proposals, it was proposed to make available a total of £500,000 over a period of four years. In addition, there is already available £100,000 from the Grant Counterpart Funds. I think it was anticipated that an additional £200,000 would be made available from the same source so that for the next four years the board would have a total of £800,000. That policy envisaged the making of incentive grants to hoteliers for the improvement of their premises and for development purposes. I think it is a policy that was adopted after mature consideration on the basis of the best technical advice that the country could secure and which was made available either to the Tourist Board personnel or to the board from the technical mission that arrived here and which carried out an investigation last summer and autumn. I hope that no delay will be allowed to prevent the board from putting that policy into operation and from stopping hoteliers from proceeding with the problem of reconstructing their premises. I hope the board will be allowed to take the other steps that are necessary in order to develop to the full the tourist resources in the country. It may be that there will be some difference of view as to some of the steps that the Tourist Board should take. I know that the view in the past was in favour of the board or a subsidiary of the board running hotels. The Government with which I was associated took a different view. However, that is only one aspect of the whole general policy. I hope that the Minister will allow the board—I believe the board is anxious and the staff available to the board are anxious—to get ahead with the work that must be carried out and which has already been delayed owing to a variety of circumstances.
The Great Northern Railway has been the subject of considerable speculation over a long period. The Minister in his opening remarks referred to the fact that there was some divergence of view between the Government and the Government in Belfast. He said that at this stage having examined the correspondence and made himself familiar with the facts as disclosed by the correspondence and by the reports of the discussions, he could not say anything further on it. I have been rather close to this problem for a long time and I recognise that it is a somewhat complicated matter. I should like to express the hope that the Minister will find it possible to get a satisfactory solution to the difficulty. Everybody in the House is anxious that the anxiety of those employees in the company should be allayed at the earliest possible moment, but I believe that it is equally important to state our conviction that the unity of the Great Northern Railway system should be maintained; any other arrangement would be impracticable and objectionable; it would be absurd to partition this system. Subject to these overriding considerations, a solution of the problem is possible on the basis of goodwill here and in Belfast. From my contacts with the Ministers in Belfast, I believe that they are anxious to get a satisfactory arrangement. I believe that the problem can be solved if the representatives of the Governments here and in Belfast approach it recognising that the railway system serves the needs of Irishmen on both sides of the Border and that, however political difficulties may obtrude themselves on the scene, this is, in the main, a technical and economic problem.
And a financial one.
That is what I meant by economic. It should be faced on that basis and I hope that the Minister will be able to reach a satisfactory arrangement. On this side of the House we are anxious and willing to help and if my experience in this matter is of any assistance it is readily available to the Government in order to provide a satisfactory arrangement that will safeguard the employment of the large number of persons in the Great Northern Railway Company.
The other big problem with which the Minister dealt in the course of his opening remarks was price control. I must say that I have been struck by the extraordinarily mild approach of the House to this problem in comparison with the approach made to me last November and December. Some extraordinary transformation has come over a number of Deputies who are now conspicuous by their silence although they were very much present in the debate which lasted for a month at the end of November last and the beginning of December. Although the situation has deteriorated substantially since the change of Government, not a single Deputy on the Government side of the House and very few on this side have expressed the same condemnation of the Government and the Minister's policy as was expressed when these matters were under discussion six months ago. I do not know whether Deputies recognise that the substantial rise which has occurred not merely in the last month but in the last few months has been greater than the rise prior to the end of November and the beginning of December last year. The Minister has the advantage that if he has not vocal supporters at least they are silent, but I had the problem of being faced with criticism from vocal supporters as well as vocal opponents.
Many of the speeches which one might have expected to be devoted towards promoting an understanding of the prices situation and the influences that affected prices were devoted in the main to what I regarded as ignorant denunciation of the policy and the steps which were taken to deal with the situation. It may be that six months ago people failed to recognise and understand the influences that affected prices and caused them to rise but I must say that at that time I was struck by the large number of Deputies from opposition benches who denounced what they regarded as the two price system and the Government black market—or in some cases a grey market.
All their speeches were designed to criticise and condemn the policy then in operation. Conducting a little research I was struck by the varying approaches to the problem, but all were unanimous in their condemnation of what they called the two price system on tea, butter and sugar. Now the Deputies opposite are responsible for the Government; they have available to them the machinery which only the Government have, and there is nothing to prevent them from putting into operation from next week the policy they advocated when in opposition in relation to the subsidising of the commodities, tea, sugar, butter and flour. Either they were dishonest when they advocated their policy then, or they have since come to recognise that ours was the right policy and are afraid to admit that.
The only explanation the Minister gave in introducing this policy was that they were stuck with it. I must remind the House that speaking on the Supplies and Services Bill on the 23rd November last (Volume 123, No. 8, column 1309), the Minister, then Deputy Lemass, said:—
"I think this system of differential prices is undesirable. Not every Deputy shares that view, I know, but I would strongly urge Deputies that they should press upon the Government to get away from it as quickly as possible. If it does mean more money for subsidies to make tea freely available, to increase the supply of bread at the subsidised price, I see no objection to voting it here. I would much prefer to vote money for that purpose than for some of the purposes for which the Government seeks it. It is preposterous for a Government that failed by £12,000,000 to balance its Budget to justify on the ground of economy the maintenance of this discriminatory system which says to those who are well off: ‘You can have unlimited supplies', but which tells those who are less well off that they must be rationed in the quantity of goods they can get."
Might I interrupt the Deputy to remind him that this Vote must finish at twenty-five to five and that the Minister must be allowed to speak?
At twenty-five to five? I have not been speaking for half an hour. I will give the Minister five minutes.
You are not leaving much time to any other Deputy.
I have not taken up much time since the session resumed and we are facilitating the Minister to get it through.
You are not facilitating other Deputies, though.
Deputies on the opposite side denounced what they described as a Government black market but they are now supporting it when they have the power to change it. I do not think it is a bad system; I think it is a good system. So long as the supply of imported essential foodstuffs is as high as it is and so long as the Government makes available a reasonable ration to the community, those who want to buy over and above that ration should be free to do so. I want the Government to tell the House on this matter—just as in relation to a number of other aspects of public policy where we have seen a change in viewpoint since the election—when they changed their mind, what were the considerations that compelled them or influenced them to do so. Mere shortage of money is nothing because this Government is taking the line that at the end of this year the higher they can make the deficit the better. They propose to adopt the policy that whatever the deficit is they will blame the present Opposition for it. Another £1,600,000 is only chicken-feed. They might as well be honest now with themselves and with the country and give the reasons why they will not adopt the system or else admit that the system we had in operation was the right system.
With regard to the Industrial Development Authority, I think that the Minister's approach is the right one. I always favoured that approach myself. It was a mistake ever to have the Industrial Development Authority in the position in which it was, neither in nor out of a Government Department. If it was intended to be independent, it should have been independent in the sense of statutory corporations; if it was intended to be part of a Government Department then it should have been part of a Government Department. However, that is finished with now and the legislation establishing it has provided for its establishment in the way in which it has been done. I think that the Minister was wise to withdraw from it because the Industrial Development Authority was never intended to deal with ordinary administrative functions that are peculiarly the responsibility of the Department of Industry and Commerce.
I wish to express my appreciation of the services which I received from the Secretary and the other officers of the Department of Industry and Commerce during my term there. In the officers of that Department the country has persons who render to the community efficient and energetic service. From my experience of them I wish to express my appreciation of the help and assistance they rendered to me and I wish to recognise publicly the services that they are rendering to the community.
I take it that two minutes is no good to the Minister?
There are three things I want to say.
By agreement, we can extend the time. Some of the other Estimates will not take as long.
There are several of us who want to speak.
We can, ad hoc, make a new agreement but I think it would be undesirable to alter completely the programme already laid down. Perhaps it would be arranged to let Deputies speak until 5 o'clock and I will speak until 5.5 o'clock.
I shall call on the Tánaiste to reply at 5 o'clock.
A big problem has been confronting us for years past and that is the double problem of unemployment and emigration. If unemployment is to be ended and if emigration is to be materially reduced it is necessary that we should establish more industries. Looking at the pattern of the country, I think it would be generally agreed that these industries ought to be established outside the big cities.
Hear, hear!
Yes, outside Dublin and Cork. The Minister's energies and the full capacity of his abilities and those of his Department must be directed to the problem of establishing new industries. For a long time, quite a number of people believed that if we could increase production on the land we could go some way towards reducing unemployment and stemming emigration. With the mechanisation of agriculture, however, the difficulty and the problem seems to be that instead of employing more people in agriculture less people will be employed in agriculture. Consequently, the big responsibility of providing employment seems to me to rest on the Department of Industry and Commerce. I was seriously worried—and I have not been able to check this matter in absolute detail—by the policy of the E.C.A. administrator in this country because the policy seemed to be to develop agriculture, to make Ireland an agricultural country rather than an industrial country. I see that the new administrator who has been appointed here has as his greatest qualification his abilities in regard to agriculture.
It was terribly neglected, too.
Surely that does not arise on the Estimate for the Department of Industry and Commerce? It arises on the Estimate for the Department of External Affairs.
Of course it does arise. I am dealing with the problem of unemployment, the problem of putting more people into work, the problem of not sending so many people abroad to earn their livelihood. Unfortunately, I cannot develop my point in the few minutes which are at my disposal in the way in which I should like to develop it. I mention it only in a broad general way so that the whole energies of the present Government and the great abilities of the Minister will be devoted to this problem of finding more employment for our people so as to lessen emigration.
I do not want to sit down without thanking the Minister and the Government for the decision they gave in regard to Store Street. The Minister knows that on that particular issue——
You are the man.
——I fought with him all along the line.
They gave it before they became a Government—not when they became a Government.
We fought together all along the line to save Store Street as a bus station for the nation. I remember speaking to the traders in Talbot Street and I told them a couple of years ago that it would be a bus station no matter what anybody else might say. It is going to be a bus station now. I am very pleased that we got an opportunity of redeeming that particular promise to the people in that area and of ensuring that Store Street would be the finest bus station in Europe.
They were the people who were principally concerned.
Vitally concerned.
Principally.
As time is short I propose to limit myself to a number of tabloid remarks. I take it that the Minister knows that it is the function of his Department to provide employment and to diffuse employment as much as possible. Therefore, I shall pass over a number of platitudes in that respect.
In reference to the Electricity Supply Board, I think that undoubtedly the Electricity Supply Board has done a very good job of work; but it would be unwise for us to follow necessarily the line taken by Deputy Cosgrave and, though we should refrain from unnecessary criticism, at least let us voice the criticism which is often expressed outside.
The Electricity Supply Board is the first of our big State enterprises. It is, therefore, very essential that we should keep its work under strict review. One thing that occurs to one in relation to the work of the Electricity Supply Board is that that supply of electricity has always fallen very far short of the electricity requirements of the nation. If the production of electricity is an economic proposition one would expect the Electricity Supply Board not to restrict the production and sale of current but rather to encourage it and actually to produce more than is required. Unfortunately, probably through under-estimation and also because of difficulties created by the war, the output of electricity has persistently fallen far short of the demand. In these circumstances I think the Minister would do well to ask the Electricity Supply Board to review its production programme very radically in the light of existing circumstances and in the light of any likely future increased demand.
I have not got here the projected figures of demand upon which the Electricity Supply Board relies but I have always felt that these figures fall far short of what the demand will actually be. I think, too, that the Electricity Supply Board has a certain bias against the utilisation of turf. I do not think it is a political bias. I think it is purely a technician's bias, the bias of one who does not want to work with a fuel to which he is not accustomed. It is much easier to compute figures and estimate results with coal and oil than it is with turf and therefore the technicians of the Electricity Supply Board prefer to work on coal and oil. I think it is very necessary to emphasise that from now on the Electricity Supply Board should concentrate practically exclusively on the development of hydro-electric schemes and turf-burning generating stations.
I would ask the Minister to have examined very carefully the possibility of utilising the Bangor-Erris bog for that turf-electricity production. I asked the Minister a question some time ago in relation to it and I think he replied that there are certain technical difficulties. Of course there are technical difficulties in the development of any scheme but technical difficulties are there to be overcome by technicians if there exists a really earnest desire to overcome them. I know that the Minister will not allow these technical difficulties to prevent these developments. I think the same applies in relation to the River Clauddy hydro-electric scheme in Donegal.
I am sure the Deputy will agree that the board should be answerable to this House in relation to policy.
In relation to policy, yes. The Minister assumes responsibility for the policy of the board on this Vote. I think, too, the Minister might request Córas Iompair Éireann to pursue very actively the experiments they have been carrying out with turf for the utilisation of turf in railway engines. I think that would be a very important development because it would in turn enable the development of a great many smaller bogs that lie along the actual railway lines. I understand that experiments carried out so far have proved satisfactory. Possibly with some help from the Department, even some more financial assistance and a greater degree of co-operation between the Turf Board and Córas Iompair Éireann, it might be possible to press ahead more rapidly with the experiments that are being carried out. I know that the Minister will bear these points in mind.
The Minister pretended to be deeply distressed when he announced in his opening statement that Córas Iompair Éireann was confronted with a very serious financial position and a deficit of something in the region of £2,300,000. May I remind the Minister that shortly after he left office or was put out of office, whichever way one likes to put it, in February, 1948, this House heard an announcement from his successor and a request that we should pass an Estimate for £4,091,000 to clear up the mess in which Deputy Lemass had left Córas Iompair Éireann when leaving office in February, 1948? That was a much more serious financial position than the one to which the Minister made reference last week in his opening statement.
I do not want to say anything about the change of policy or attitude because it was only natural that that should follow on a change of Government in so far as the Store Street central bus station is concerned. Deputy Captain Cowan claims credit for the existence of the Government. If there is any truth in the statement that the Government is existing on sufferance and carrying on with the goodwill of Deputy Captain Cowan and one or two others, it is only natural that Deputy Captain Cowan must be met. The Government must meet him in some way or other if it wishes to continue in existence. But I do not think Deputy Captain Cowan is quite fair to other people in this matter. Deputy Captain Cowan knows better than the Minister, and the Minister knows it well, that behind Deputy Captain Cowan in this matter are Deputy Colley and the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs and the owner of the biggest drapery house——
And public opinion.
——in the City of Dublin. These are all strong men to have behind one, and if one is not willing to walk in front one is bound to get kicked. That is what has happened to Deputy Captain Cowan in this matter. I will not lie awake at night whether or not this station is permanently fixed in Store Street. My opinion is that because of the increase in traffic in the City of Dublin during the past ten or 15 years and the chaotic condition of the traffic to-day, those who first suggested that the most suitable site for a central bus station was in front of Collins Barracks were not far wrong.
If I had responsibility—I would not do these things on my own naturally— I would say that in order to cater for certain sections of the country that would be the most suitable site for a bus station. If one required a second station to meet the requirements of the south eastern portion of the country and avoid further dislocation of traffic in the centre of the city Donnybrook garage, which is a very up-to-date building, would be a very suitable site for buses going to and from the south eastern portion of the country. The Minister and his colleagues have made up their governmental mind under pressure from Deputy Captain Cowan and others. I suppose we shall have to put up with that so long as the present Government remains in office.
I do not want to say anything that would embarrass the Minister in the delicate negotiations he is carrying on at the moment in relation to the Great Northern Railway. I hope the people in the North will be sensible enough to realise that the policy of public ownership of transport services is in the long run the only practical way out of the difficulty. The Minister has the goodwill of everybody sitting here on the Opposition Benches in his efforts to bring about a satisfactory solution.
We have been supplied with figures by the shareholders' association who have been inundating Deputies on all sides of the House with documents. The latest financial statement as to the position of the Great Northern Railway, which I know some parties would like to change now for their own political purposes, shows that there has been a profit in the running of the Great Northern Railway in the Twenty-Six Counties' side of the system whilst there has been a loss on the running of the system in the Six Counties. No matter what solution the Minister is prepared to agree to, I hope he will not agree to a solution which would involve taxpayers in the Twenty-Six Counties in the payment of moneys by way of a subsidy to preserve or develop services on the Six-County side. I do not think it would be fair that taxpayers in the Twenty-Six Counties should be asked to pay for losses of the Great Northern Railway Company on the Six-County side of the Border. I wish the Minister every luck in the negotiations in which he will be engaged next week in connection with this matter.
I mentioned two weeks ago, by way of parliamentary question, that certain complaints had been sent to the Minister's Department in connection with supplies of blankets, towels and other essential commodities of a domestic character. I was surprised to hear the Minister say, in reply, that his Department had received these complaints in the latter end of last year. I can assure the Minister that I have read correspondence that was addressed to his Department quite recently in connection with this matter and I can produce a reputable witness to prove that he attended conferences in connection with the investigation of such complaints in March and April of this year. It may be some satisfaction to the Minister if I say that the position is much easier now than it was even in March and April of this year but I can assure him that complaints of a justifiable nature were sent to his Department in March and April of this year.
I want to direct the serious attention of the Minister to this matter. Does the Minister think it fair that a reputable firm of hosiery manufacturers should, after accepting a contract, come along after a slight increase in the price of raw materials in a country far away from here, and indicate to the firm with whom they made that contract that, as a result of the rise in the price of raw materials which presumably they saw in the papers, their prices would be pushed up by 33? per cent. and that they would not complete the contract unless that were agreed to? I will not indicate the source of the letter further than to say that it comes from a firm of hosiery manufacturers in County Donegal, a firm which caters for some 2,000 retail customers. I am concerned in this matter because several drapers have come to me with complaints as to the difficulties which they experience in obtaining essential commodities of this character. This letter is dated 23rd May, 1951 and, for the purposes of record, I am quoting it in this House. It says:—
"In common with many industries we have, for a considerable period, been faced with steadily rising costs in respect of all raw materials and recently we have suffered drastic curtailments of our cotton yarn supplies. As a consequence of these facts, we have been obliged to review our position, and, as a result, have reluctantly to inform you that we have had to withdraw all our existing prices and cancel all our existing numbers. We shall not, therefore, be able to deliver balances of orders as originally placed by you either as to price, or, we are afraid, as to quantity, and anything we can deliver now will be under new numbers and at increased prices which are in the region of between 25 per cent. and 33? per cent."
That is a very big jump. The letter concludes:—
"We very much regret having to take this step, but we are sure you will realise that it is due to circumstances entirely beyond our control."
Is that the action of a reputable firm of hosiery manufacturers or should they be allowed to get away with that kind of thing? Prices of raw materials, so far as that firm is concerned, have gone down considerably since that letter was written, but I wonder would the firm come along, now that prices have come down, reverse that attitude and give the benefit of the reduced prices to the wholesale people in order to allow the wholesale people to pass them on to the retailers and their customers? I would ask the Minister to inquire into activities of that kind because I believe it is not confined to one particular firm. It is the kind of action which has been taken by a group of people in an organised way and it has had a very serious effect in increasing prices of essential commodities during the past couple of months. I quote that letter because I think it is important that a letter of that kind should be put on the records of this House for immediate examination by the Minister and officers of his Department.
The Minister gave some very disturbing information in his statement with regard to the activities of the Electricity Supply Board. I wish to say, in spite of the very strong case put up by Deputy Cosgrave in defence of the Electricity Supply Board, that I am wholeheartedly behind the Minister in his remarks. We find, according to the Minister, that the Electricity Supply Board, in recent years, has been concerned with increasing supplies of electricity by utilising fuel that we must import. I believe that the first place we must look for fuel for electricity development, apart from the development of electricity by water power, is from home sources, and that the Electricity Supply Board should be informed, if it is possible even at this late stage, that they should revert to the policy of utilising fuel produced here in Ireland.
There is another aspect of the activities of the Electricity Supply Board to which I should like to draw attention and that is with regard to the huge amount of material and equipment used by this State company. Deputy Morrissey, when he was Minister, made a statement on one occasion, and I think he will bear me out with reference to it, that we import in one year approximately £66,000,000 worth of commodities that could be, and should be, manufactured here at home. Quite a considerable quantity of that amount of goods has been imported by the Electricity Supply Board. I feel sure that the Electricity Supply Board if they had sufficient energy and foresight could manufacture quite a considerable amount of the electricial equipment which they are importing from abroad. It is a scandal that a body sponsored by the State should be the first to set the bad example of importing equipment and other materials that could be made at home.
The only other point I wish to raise has reference to the Arigna mineral areas. I understand that at the moment we have a team of experts from America studying industrial development and so forth. I would ask the Minister to invite these experts to pay a visit to Arigna area and to examine the possibility of developing mineral resources in that locality. The Minister has not to depend upon my account as to what is available in Arigna. It is on record in the Library for any Deputy who wishes to obtain a first-hand knowledge of the mineral resources of the area and for anybody who cares to read the evidence given before the Commission on the Industries and Resources of Ireland. Deputies will find, in the report of that commission, some very interesting information with regard to the Arigna area. The extraordinary thing is that even since the departure of the English régime, very little has been done to develop that locality. A recommendation was made before the Commission on the Resources and Industries of Ireland that this locality should be taken over by a State company for the purposes of development. A number of experts were examined before that commission which held its sittings away back in 1919. One of its remarks was that it was noteworthy that when the first seam was discovered in Kilronan, that is near Arigna, it was considered of such immense importance that the Irish Parliament of the time voted a sum for the construction of roads in the year 1800. Nothing, however, was done by the British afterwards, owing, I presume, to the hostility of Welsh and British mining interests. There were various reports afterwards and, in 1872, it was stated that:—
"The time has now come for a vigorous scientific exploration of the district."
A report by Sir Richard Griffin states:—
"The quality of the coal in number two seam in Arigna is excellent for domestic purposes and, if used for smelting purposes, it is the best in the empire."
These are just a few remarks I would like to place before the Minister. I think there are tremendous possibilities for development in the Arigna area, but it will take the State to do the job. All credit is due to the persons who are at present trying to develop the locality by private means, but they have neither sufficient funds nor the right type of machinery at their disposal to do the job properly. I believe that, in order to provide employment for the rural population of that and every area, it is essential that every effort be made to develop the mineral resources of the country as a whole, with particular reference to the Arigna area.
Would the Minister be gracious enough to allow me two minutes?
I am limited to five minutes.
Pardon me. I was not aware of that.
I think that the time has come when Deputy Davin and his colleagues should take an adult view of prices. If the cost of raw materials rises then the cost of manufactured goods rises, and if the cost of manufactured goods rises, retail prices will rise. If we try to stop that, either we will not succeed or we will put a lot of people out of employment. In the course of his remarks here, Deputy Cosgrave said that prices have risen more in the first six months of this year than they did in the latter end of last year. The House will note the significance of that remark when it remembers that the Standstill Order was imposed on prices as from the 2nd January. It did not prevent the rise in prices because nobody was prepared to maintain it to the point of stopping production or putting people out of employment. Prices are still rising, but they are rising now because the increased costs that occurred since the beginning of the year are only now being reflected in the retail prices of some commodities. The recent Orders made altering the prices of some commodities are merely a belated reflection in retail prices of higher costs which became operative some time before. There is always that time-lag, and it is operating now to reflect in retail prices the rise in the cost of materials and wages which occurred last year and at the beginning of this year.
I have not changed my attitude towards the two-price system. I still think it is undesirable and I still think that we should get rid of it as quickly as possible. But just as a man marries a nagging wife in a hurry and then finds it very difficult to get rid of her, so we are stuck with this two-price system. When I say we have not money to get rid of it I mean that the total tax revenue of this year plus the total amount which the Government can borrow this year through normal sources will be insufficient to meet the expenditure to which the Government is committed.
Is that the only thing that prevents the Minister from increasing subsidies?
It is the one thing that is preventing it being done this year. As regards the Electricity Supply Board, I want to see it as a board which is enthusiastic for the right kind of development, not merely a board which has accepted it sullenly or merely because it is told to do so. It is not enough for the board to look for guarantees that turf will be available in two or three years' time for supplying turf burning stations. I can offer no guarantee that coal will be available. In fact, having regard to our recent experience with the British in relation to the trade agreement, it is easier to guarantee turf than coal to the Electricity Supply Board for some years ahead. That applies also to the utilising of its economic power to develop industry. I want to see it doing that not merely because it is told to do it, but because it realises it is the right thing to do.
You cannot blame the Electricity Supply Board because the turf is not there in sufficient quantity.
There are difficulties, but the Electricity Supply Board should be as concerned as the Turf Board or any member of the board is about solving these difficulties.
Are we doing sufficient in the way of developing our own coal resources?
That is a question I cannot deal with in the short time available. The rise in the cost of coal is bound to be reflected, not merely in the cost of electricity but in the cost of transport, in the cost of gas, in the cost of every product in relation to which coal is the significant factor.
As far as the Tourist Board is concerned, I want to say this: I do not regard the decision to abandon hotel grading as a day-to-day administrative matter. The type of grading that might be maintained or how that grading may be enforced is a matter for the board. I do not think the board should have taken a decision of that kind on its own initiative. It certainly should not have done it a few days after the Government came into office without consulting that Government.
That matter was in train before the change of Government.
I am prepared to consider their reasons in a fair manner, but until I have considered those reasons, I do not think the decision should be taken as final.
So far as the Great Northern Railway is concerned, I hope it will be possible to find a satisfactory solution of the difficulties existing. Nobody knows better than Deputy Cosgrave and Deputy Morrissey how thin that hope is. It is not merely a matter of desiring to see the unity of the Great Northern Railway system maintained. If it was merely a matter of our wishes there would be no difficulty.
Arising out of Deputy Cowan's remark relating to E.C.A., I want to say this: it has been my experience that the attitude of the E.C.A. Mission to industrial development here has been completely co-operative and I am hoping that there will be a significant development in the industrial field as a result of the help which they are in a position to afford us.
In relation to the development of working, there has, of course, been a substantial amount of money spent by the Government here on exploratory work. The outcome of that exploratory work did not justify many of the hopes that were held in relation to the possibilities in that area. I understand that the E.C.A. industrial survey team were in that locality during last week but, in any event, it is intended that there will now be a more systematic investigation of the mineral resources where the prospects appear to be good.
Some of the local people are not prepared to co-operate.
So far as working is concerned, shortly after I became Minister in 1932 a substantial sum was spent on the thorough investigation of the coal and iron resources of that area, and the report was published; there was another investigation since.
Has the Minister considered the question of setting up a coal burning generating plant for electricity purposes?
That has been under consideration.
That would be a possibility, but the Deputy must keep this in mind also: the coal deposits of that area 100 or 150 years ago are really no guide to the present situation if the deposits have been worked in the meantime. Mineral resources of that kind are wasting assets, and the fuller the extent to which they are worked, the less there will be for the future. One of the problems in relation to working is that the known resources capable of commercial working are limited and if we work them too often we bring them to an end at an earlier date, which might have serious social consequences in the area. These are all matters for examination, however.
Vote put and agreed to.