Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 11 Mar 1952

Vol. 129 No. 11

Committee on Finance. - Sea Fisheries Bill, 1952—Second Stage.

Tairgim go léifear an Bille den Dara Uair. Is é an rud is sonntasaí i dtaobh an iascaigh in Éirinn go dtagann rath air le linn cogaidh agus go mbíonn meath air aimsir shíochána. Rinneadh saibhreas le linn an chéad chogaidh mhóir nuair nach rabh ag formhór na n-iascairí ach báid sheoil.

Bhí tóir mhór ar a rabh de bhia is de bheatha dá sholáthar anseo. Bhí na hiascairí ag soláthar gan mórán stró mar bhíodh neart éisc cois chladaigh. Bíonn sé amhlaidh amh chogaid, mar ní bhíonn na trollaerí mhóra de chuid Shasana nó na dtíortha eile in Iarthar Eorpa ag iascach, faitíos a gcur síos go grinneall ag an namhaid nó i ngeall ar iad a bheith tógtha anonn ag an gcabhlach chogaidh. Le linn an chogaidh dheiridh tháinig rath ar an iascach tar éis dó bheith in ísle brí idir an dá chogadh. In aimsir chogaidh mar sin bíonn tóir agus tógáil, marú agus margadh ag obair as láimh a chéile i dtionscal an iascaigh le go mbíonn brabach ag an iascaire. Is mór an scéal é go gcuireann an tsíocháin ruaig ar rath na hiascaireachta in Éirinn, ach ba mar sin a bhí ó naoi gcéad déag is a ceathar déag i leith. I ndiaidh an chéad chogaidh domhanda leagadh na báid suas ar an duirlinn nó gur lobhadar.

Le breith ar an aiféal cuireadh an Comhlachas Iascaigh Mhara ar bun i naoi gcéad déag tríocha a haon. D'athraigh an Comhlachas an modh oibre a bhí ann cheana. Tugadh báid amach ar roinnt airgid síos, díoladh an t-iasc ar son an iascaire agus coinníodh an oiread seo den toradh i gcoinne costas an bháid. D'oibrigh an scéim go cuíosach maith agus níl sé á chaitheamh i leath-taoibh faoin mBille seo.

An chuid is mó de na cumhachtaí atá tugtha don Bhord faoín mBille tá siad cheana ag Coiste an Comhlachais Iascaigh Mhara, ach taispeánadh in imeacht aimsire go dteastaíonn eagar nua ó lucht na hiascaireachta lena gcur i bhfeidhm go héifeachtúil agus leis an toradh is fearr a bhaint astu ar son an phobail is na n-iascairí.

Sin é díreach an rud atá beartaithe sa mBille seo, eagar nua a chur ar an iascaireacht agus barr feabhais a chur uirthi, i riocht is go mbeidh slí maireachtála níos fearr ag na fir agus go mbeidh díol tíre den iasc le fáil againn ón ár n-iascairí féin.

In general, the objects of the Bill may be stated as the reorganisation of the sea-fishing industry particularly in regard to the functions previously discharged by the Sea Fisheries Association and the exercise of control over marketing of home landings so that the best returns possible may be secured by the fishermen while ensuring that whatever fish is available is distributed in the best possible manner to meet the needs of the consumer public. Since I assumed office in June last, I have been in touch through personal contacts and correspondence with the different branches of the industry, particularly the fishermen grouped together in fishing centres around our coasts. I have found among all persons who have a stake in the welfare of the industry the conviction that our inshore fishing industry has reached the end of a stage of development and that special measures are required to fit the industry for further progress in the new conditions and circumstances which it is clear will apply in years to come.

I have considered fully the many views which have been put before me and I have had this Bill drawn up to include all suggestions and proposals which I consider would contribute in practice to the further development of the industry.

It is hoped that the Bill when enacted will enable the sea-fishing industry to be developed so that it may ultimately be expected to meet in full the home consumer demand for fresh and cured fish and provide, perhaps, a surplus for export and raw material for ancillary industries such as fish-meal manufacture. I must emphasise, however, that in my view, and in the view of the Government, the governing factor in any reorganisation scheme must be the welfare of the inshore fishing communities scattered around our coasts, many in Irish-speaking districts, who depend solely, or to a major degree, on fishing for a living. It would not be possible, mainly owing to lack of suitable harbour accommodation, to equip all such communities with larger type boats of a wide range of activities, but well organised shore services in the spheres of marketing, cold storage, curing and distribution would enable small efficient boats fishing in local waters to make a substantial contribution towards meeting the country's fish requirements and provide an adequate living for local fishing communities.

In order to understand the need for the Bill, I think it would help Deputies if I gave, in brief outline, the principal developments in the inshore fishing industry which have led to its present position. In 1931 the Sea Fisheries Association was established in an effort to arrest the serious decline which the sea-fishing industry had experienced since the close of the first world war. During that war the industry had experienced something in the nature of a boom, but, with the return of the British fishing fleet, the demand for Irish-caught fish in Great Britain and the home market in this country (imports were free of all restrictions at that time), the landings of our fishermen did not find a ready sale and prices took a very heavy fall. This development, which applied mainly to demersal or white fish, was unfortunately, accompanied by lean years as regards the quantities of herrings and mackerel which visited our shores. The failure of the herrings and mackerel to come affected part-time fishermen particularly, and the general picture in 1931 was that most of the fishermen, particularly the younger men, had become completely discouraged, and abandoned fishing boats were a common sight on the shores and in the harbours around the coast.

With the establishment of the Sea Fisheries Association, new hope was given to the industry, and it can be said that the decline was immediately arrested to some extent, at any rate. The majority of the fishermen, however, still based their hopes on herrings and mackerel, as their predecessors had done for many years before.

Two developments, however, unfortunately took place in the early thirties which made it clear that the future of the Irish fishing industry could not at that time, if, indeed, ever again, be based in the main on herrings and mackerel. The U.S.A. market for pickled mackerel underwent serious changes—the taste for pickled fish in that country declined due to competition from fish processed by quick-freezing and packaging; the landings of mackerel by American fishermen greatly increased and were almost sufficient to cater for the American demand for such fish; and the U.S.A. Government placed an import duty on pickled mackerel to protect the landings of the American fishermen. As regards herrings, in the early 'thirties the British Government decided, in order to maintain and develop their own herring fisheries, to establish a herring marketing board. This board supervised and regulated the herring fisheries in the United Kingdom right through from the payment of fixed prices to the fishermen to the marketing of the processed herring both smoked and pickled. The board confined its efforts strictly to the United Kingdom, with the result that there was no demand among British curers for herrings landed in this country. Furthermore, with the adoption of policies of self-sufficiency in Germany, Poland and some other parts of eastern Europe, which for a long time had been useful outlets for Irish pickled herring, the demand for the Irish product overseas almost entirely disappeared.

The change in the herring and mackerel situation made it clear that efforts to revive the Irish fishing industry must be based on the production of white fish (i.e., flat fish and round fish other than herrings and mackerel). It was considered that the first step in this direction must be the provision of a secure basic market at home and, accordingly, in 1938, as part of the trade agreement made in that year with the United Kingdom imports of white fish were subjected to quantitative restriction. This had immediate effect in improving home landings. With the outbreak of war, however, the position completely changed. Imports from Great Britain ceased and a keen demand arose in that market for almost any kind of fish which we could send across. The reduction in the activities of the British fishing fleets also resulted in better supplies of fish being available within the reach of our inshore fishing boats inasmuch as there was a constant overflow of fish to our coastal waters from the distant fishing grounds which had been previously frequented by the British fishing fleets and which were now deserted.

Every boat around our coast which was in anything like a serviceable condition was put to sea and young men turned back to the industry as a source of a worthwhile livelihood. When hostilities ended in 1945 our inshore fishing industry was in a much stronger and healthier state than in 1938. The following figures indicate the development that had taken place. The landings of white fish by inshore boats in 1945 came to 150,174 cwt. compared with 57,359 cwt. in 1938. The total number of boats engaged had increased from 2,639 in 1938 to 3,472 in 1945, while the number of men wholly employed in the industry increased from 1,463 to 1,886 and those partially employed from 5,888 to 8,191. Imports in 1945 were negligible while about 40,000 cwt. of white fish were exported.

The industry maintained its position, especially as regards white fish landings, up to 1949, but for the past two years quite a considerable drop has taken place in the landings of such fish, while the landings of herring and mackerel which, as everybody knows, are fortuitous inasmuch as the shoaling of these fish within reach of our inshore fleets is not a regular annual occurrence, were also very disappointing. Every effort has been made in post-war years by the Sea Fisheries Association to refit the industry as far as possible with more efficient boats.

The association's efforts, however, were limited to the extent of the availability of marine engines and the number of new boats, in the circumstances, which it was possible to supply was not as large as had been hoped for when the war ended. In 1950 and 1951 the number of motor boats in service was higher than in 1947, but, despite that fact, the landings of white fish fell very considerably compared with 1947. The main factor which is generally accepted as contributing to the decline in landings is the reduced catches per unit of fishing time obtained by our fishermen on the inshore ground. A shortage of almost all the better classes of fish has become evident on these grounds and has been attributed to the very intensive activities of foreign deep-sea vessels on the fishing grounds around our coasts (but well outside our exclusive fishery limits) from which a regular overflow was available in previous years. In these circumstances, it seems clear that if home landings are to be maintained and expanded it will be necessary to employ a number of larger boats capable of exploiting the deep-sea waters which are at present outside the scope of our fishing fleets. This aspect of the situation has been kept in mind in drawing up the Bill, but it must be emphasised that the extent to which deep-sea fishing vessels can be employed must be governed by the policy that the interests of the inshore fishermen are paramount.

It is expected that the new authority to be established in place of the present Sea Fisheries Association will be able to arrange that while the landings of the deep-sea boats will be in a sense complementary to the landings of the inshore boats, a regular and adequate supply of fish may be available to consumers throughout the year.

I do not think that it is necessary for me to say any more as to the present position, and I will now indicate to the House the main provisions of the Bill and the purposes which they are intended to serve as well as the objects which they are expected to achieve.

Part I of the Bill, containing what may be described as the usual routine provisions, does not, I think, call for any amplification at this stage at any rate. Turning to Part II we come to some of the cardinal points of the proposed scheme of reorganisation. It is intended to give the fishery authority power to regulate the landing and sale, as well as the intermediate stages of handling and processing, of fish of all kinds, with a view to securing improved marketing and disposal of supplies. Gutting of certain kinds of fish on board ship might, for example, have to be insisted upon and conservation of fish waste and occasional fish gluts for diversion to fish-meal manufacture might have to be seen to.

The domestic home market will be reserved to Irish fishermen by the enactment of an obligation to license, under prescribed conditions, every vessel exceeding 35 ft. overall used for commercial fishing. Under the prescribed conditions, large type fishing boats could be excluded from certain fishing grounds which are regularly worked by the smaller type of inshore fishing boat and the Irish stocks of which might be seriously depleted if large boats were to continue to be allowed to exploit them. The licensing provision would restrict sea-fishing operations to boats in full Irish ownership, but this restriction is loosened to the extent of allowing boats already registered here to continue fishing operations. Some of these latter boats make a useful contribution at present to the fish supply position and, moreover, the exemption clause in their favour obviates any question arising as to compensation.

It is further stipulated that landings made by vessels owned by persons who are engaged in either the wholesale or retail trade of fresh fish shall be made available to the trade at large through the medium of the new board proposed to be set up under Part III. A stipulation of this kind, in my opinion, is necessary for the orderly marketing of fish in the interests of the inshore fishermen and to ensure that their landings will not be placed at a disadvantage. It is envisaged that the new board will themselves engage in sea-fishing operations on distant ground, so as to supplement the efforts of the inshore fishermen.

As regards the new board to be set up under Part III, I am satisfied that the full development of the sea-fishing industry should be entrusted to a special body—more particularly dealt with in the First Schedule to the Bill— operating generally on the lines of the existing Sea Fisheries Association, but with much increased responsibilities. The new body would take over the assets, liabilities, powers and functions of the Sea Fisheries Association and would, in addition, be charged with the responsibility for the operation of a fleet of large-type motor fishing vessels, which must be employed to supplement the landings of the inshore fishermen. It would also have to deal with the landings made by fishing vessels, the owners of which engage in the wholesale or retail sale of fresh fish.

It will be a special duty of the new body to develop markets, both domestic and export, and also to help to the greatest extent possible in having fish surplus to the needs of the fresh trade and excess supplies of fish of low marketable quality dealt with by curing or as raw material for ancillary industries. There is need at present for exploratory or experimental work with new types of boats and equipment, the investigation of new fishing grounds which could be worked by inshore boats and for the introduction of new methods for the processing of fish.

The Sea Fisheries Association as at present constituted could not be expected to undertake these new functions, in addition to carrying on its present wide activities, with any prospect of success. The existing control is by a committee of eight directors, four nominees of the Minister and four elected by the members. As three at least of the elected members must reside at a distance from Dublin under the present system of election, it has not been found possible to have the business of the association dealt with as expeditiously as would be desired.

In the circumstances, it is necessary, without departing in essentials from the existing procedure governing the supply of boats and gear as well as the marketing of catches on a co-operative basis, to substitute for the existing control a directing authority more constantly available and more immediately answerable to the Minister for the discharge of its duties. The new body would consist of a chairman and five other members, all on a part-time basis, all nominated by the Minister and paid such fees as may be approved by the Minister for Finance. The board would meet as often as necessary, probably as frequently as once in every week.

The present association would under Part IV of the Bill be made to cease functioning and would be replaced by a body styled "An Comhlachas Iascaigh Mhara," the composition of which, regulation of its procedure, etc., is provided for in the Second Schedule. The aim in establishing this association is to give the fishermen and the other interests in the fishing industry a voice in its development. The functions of the new body would be to recommend schemes of development to the new board and to make representations on matters generally appertaining to the improvement of the industry.

Membership of the association would be open to any person engaged in sea-fishing or in the distributive fish trade, and each member would be required to pay a registration fee of 1/-, plus an annual membership charge of 5/-. The association would be controlled by a committee of eight persons, including a chairman, elected triennially by the members. The fishermen would have four representatives, the wholesale fish trade two, and the retail fish trade two. No remuneration would be paid to the members of the committee but necessary expenses arising from the functioning of the association would be paid by the board, subject to the prior approval of the board for the expenditure having been obtained.

Part VI of the Bill, which prohibits, except under licence, the sale by auction of fresh fish, is drawn on substantially the same lines as Part III of the Sea Fisheries Act, 1931, which is now being repealed. Part III of that Statute was never applied to any area of the State as it was apprehended that the specific ineligibility under one of its provisions for grant of licence to persons employed, engaged or otherwise concerned in the sea-fishing industry would have had undesirable repercussions for the fishermen. All the wholesalers on the Dublin market have interests other than auctioneering. Some of them own or have shares in boats and retail shops, while all of them smoke and otherwise cure large quantities of fish for the home and export markets. It is generally recognised that they must be in the curing business so that they may be in a position to buy in at a fair price any fish sent to them for sale and left on their hands unsold.

I do not think that system can be changed without serious loss to the fishermen, and accordingly the restrictive clause in question is removed in Part VI of the present Bill. This Part, like Part III of the 1931 Act, provides that it may be applied by Order to any particular area, but an exception is made in the case of persons who auction fresh fish, such as herrings and mackerel, at the place of landing, as such persons were never regarded as auctioneers in the wider sense of the term. Licences shall be issued on such conditions as the fishery authority may consider expedient or necessary. Power is given to revoke a licence where the holder is convicted of any breach of the provisions of the Bill, or any of the Fisheries Acts, or is convicted of an offence involving fraud, dishonesty, or breach of trust.

I am no more in love with this Bill than I was with the Bill introduced by the Parliamentary Secretary's predecessor. We have within the framework of this Bill a further outstretching of the tentacles of bureaucracy, and again we have the setting up of board after board to control the fishing industry, which in fact is a virtual disgrace to an island country around which are some of the finest fishing grounds in the world. The Parliamentary Secretary has indicated a certain change, which must inevitably be welcomed, in that he envisages that we shall have some kind of deep-sea boats operating here for the purpose of filling lacuna periods in the market, as distinct from the system envisaged by his predecessors by which all fish for the lacuna periods was to be bought in the English market by the Sea Fisheries Association for marketing at home.

What is the fundamental reason that inspires the Government to try and put the control and management of fishing into semi-State hands? Why does the Minister's Parliamentary Secretary want a board to which he can nominate all the personnel? We do not know what qualifications this personnel must have. Why is it necessary to hidebound the fishing industry that should of itself and by its competitive nature be self-sufficient? Why is it necessary to hidebound it with regulations and controls? Surrounded as we are by some of the finest fishing grounds in Europe, it is an amazing situation that there are areas of the country in which people virtually never see fish. When they do see fish it is either of a salted, smoked or preserved variety. It may even be in the main a tinned variety.

It is not a fact—I feel it is a fact— that this industry has always been approached on the basis of its being some kind of subsidiary to the Department of Agriculture, a sort of difficult stepchild? The fishing industry in this country should be developed in such a way that it could compare and compete with the tremendous earning capacity of the fishing industry in places such as Norway, Belgium, and Spain. Mind you, Spain can fish Irish fishing grounds and exploit the Fastnet fishing area successfully from the Spanish point of view. I have gone to the trouble, over a number of years, occasionally to go into the Dublin fish market and see there, when there is any kind of rough weather running, a complete dearth of fish because, in the main, as adverted to by the Parliamentary Secretary, most of our equipment is obsolete and new equipment by way of replacement has not been adequate. It certainly has not come with any great speed.

That fault may not be laid entirely at the feet of the Sea Fisheries Association which is being done away with now. It may be due to other causes, such as difficulty of supply and the fact that there was a prejudice in favour of a special type of engine as distinct from a general range of marine engines. We have to face the amazing fact that we have never developed to anything like a full extent the domestic market at home. We have bought, as any Deputy examining the figures will see, considerable quantities of fish, both of the smoked and fresh variety, in order to bolster up the home supply.

We talk to-day about unemployment and about the lack of development of industry. I regret that in this Bill there is nothing to show us the initiative of a Government bursting forth to make a practical industry of this fishing, the raw materials of which are adjacent to our shores and abound in plenitude. When one considers all the facets that go into the supply of the market and when one realises the glut periods that we get in certain types of fish that present themselves readily for either canning, smoking or preserving, we still face year after year the period when vast sums of money are spent on importing fish of all varieties from countries all over the world.

I have said, when addressing myself to this Bill before, that I feel the whole approach to this problem is cock-eyed and that we have never come to grips with fundamentals. Deputy Dillon, when he was Minister for Agriculture, lamented the danger that might arise to the inshore fishermen in the event of the development of a deep-sea trawler consciousness. I said then that we were completely wrong in our approach to that problem. I say the same now and I know that inferentially the Parliamentary Secretary has suggested he is in agreement. These two systems can be dovetailed into being complementary to each other.

What the inshore fishermen must get —I cannot see this Bill giving it to them with all respect—is an improved type of boat and equipment if their way of life is to be preserved at all. It is well known to anybody interested in fishing that the type of boat that could get fish a generation ago much closer to the Irish coast than fish is now available is not suitable to get the fish in the quantities that they got it before. It is essential that inshore fishermen should be equipped with a type of boat or craft that will ensure not only his getting fish further afield, but a type of boat that would be consistent with safety and economy in regard to the industry itself. This Bill does not contain any provision to my mind that will improve that condition of affairs.

I argued before—indeed, I think the Parliamentary Secretary, when he was a Deputy, added his voice to the plea —that there should be an overriding clause, within which the Minister may exercise his own judgment as to what subscription, by way of a down payment, a fisherman must make to get the type of decent boat he wants. To put down the percentage required at present will run into anything from £500 to £600, and that is merely a deposit. That is often something that he cannot find. I pleaded then and I now plead with the Parliamentary Secretary to view the situation from the point of view of the person, his family and the area in which he is. The Parliamentary Secretary knows there are good fishermen, fishermen of experience, fishermen, who, over the years, have proved their fishing capacity. In cases such as these, the Parliamentary Secretary should take power under this Act to dispense with any percentage basis of deposit and allow a minimum that would permit that type of fisherman to go into ownership of his boat on a pay-as-you-earn system. The Parliamentary Secretary knows very well that that particular large sum of money, ranging from £500 to £550 and from £600 to £650 for the fully equipped boat by way of deposit, is a great deterrent to getting the type of fishermen that would fish.

The late Minister for Agriculture, Deputy Dillon, spoke of the way of life of the inshore fishermen and of the numbers that were engaged in the trade. He was anxious to preserve that. I contended then and I contend now that the preservation of the inshore fishermen is intimately and personally bound up with the activities of those fishermen themselves. Too many of them fish to suit their own convenience, not the convenience of a market or for the purpose of supplying a market. They fish when it either suits them, if they are small farmers, or when the weather suits them. They do not fish for long periods of the year; in that way they fail to maintain a continuity of supply that the market should have. I say quite seriously that if inshore fishing is to be preserved it is the fishermen themselves who must preserve it by giving a reasonable return, by way of fishing catch and fish supplied to the market, to the Irish people for the expenditure they are imposing on them.

I wonder is it a good idea for the Parliamentary Secretary to put the control and operation of these deep-sea boats in the hands of this new board? Deep-sea trawling has had a peculiar history in this country, and I wonder if the Parliamentary Secretary might not be a lot wiser in allowing private enterprise and experienced people in fishing to take the responsibility for deep-sea trawling and landing of fish as distinct from any governmental board? There is a better incentive and there is a far greater possibility of success in the private enterprise push than there will be no matter how efficient the board will be, being a State-run or a State-nominated board running State-purchased deep-sea type of boats. Once they are sponsored by the State, they have not to fight in the same way for their commercial existence. I cannot for the life of me see why a Government, no matter who they be, do not sit down to face the problem in a bold way as distinct from a small niggardly type of approach as is within this Bill.

Can the Parliamentary Secretary tell us why does the Minister want this board? Why must he have the nomination of the board; and why has he special powers of removal? I do not like to obtrude politics on fish but it does smack of jobs for the pal. There is no control over who may be nominated and there are tremendous powers of removal. In other words, if anybody on this board exercised too much independence of thought or effort, the Minister has a very simple way of bringing the board back to his way of thinking. Let us ask ourselves the question honestly. Is this something that will be acceptable to the people engaged in the fishing industry? Is it something that will be acceptable to the primary pivot of the industry, the fisherman? Will it satisfy the wholesaler? Will it satisfy the distributive trade? Are the inherent weaknesses which may be apparent going to be sealed by this piece of legislation? What are these apparent weaknesses? The Parliamentary Secretary has not told us what is the reason for this involved type of control and this difficult type of legislation.

There is one thing certain that this country could do with infinitely more fish than it is getting and that parts of rural Ireland could be given fish in quantities that it has never seen before and in which they would be readily and quickly consumed. In a situation where we have tremendous increases in general foodstuff costs, if the right type of action is taken we should be in the position to develop a tremendous home market for fish and, at the same time, develop a considerable industry in fishing itself. Is there anything more heartbreaking than seeing what I witness week after week driving around my constituency, fishing boats carrying every type of flag, hauling, dragging and trawling fish around the south-west of Ireland; and when one takes a trip to the west coast of Ireland at certain times of the year seeing these foreign trawlers taking away that store of wealth which is more readily available to us at home than to anybody else if we build an industry equipped to catch the fish not only to serve the needs of a home market but so that we can look for an export market. Norway has it and Belgium has it also. We, if you please, must get fish from Cardiff or Milford Haven, fished in deep-sea trawlers out of these ports, manned by boys who have left Castletownbere and West Cork. These are the crews of these boats—I have met them.

What is wrong with our system that the fishermen we had at home are now fishing in large numbers with English trawl fishing companies? Where is the solution presented by this Bill with one board on top of another? The advisory board envisaged by this Bill has a nice name but what function it has beyond that of any other board of giving somebody the name of being on it, I cannot see. It may make recommendations. It may make this, that or the other. There is no provision under which even the best intentioned scheme can be forced on the board for its acceptance.

The whole basic scheme of the Bill is cumbersome and tends to delay development. Is putting an organisation under State control the best way to get supplies? What has been our experience in this country of State-controlled bodies? What happened when we put the dead hand of a semi-State concern into the transport of this country? I said before, standing on the other side of the House behind my own Minister, that a Bill of this kind could seal the doom of the fishing industry and I still believe that because, fundamentally, we have not even got the approach which the Sinn Féin plan for fishing envisaged. It envisaged expenditure of State money in such a way as to ensure that we had fishing craft in this country which could supply the needs of the immediate market as well as fish for canning purposes, for smoking purposes, and for the development of the shell-fish industry either for the fresh export trade or for the canned export trade. All that supply is there, in the form of crawfish, lobsters, scallops and all the various shell-fish, even the despised mussel. We had in this country a cock-eyed idea of building up behind tariff walls an industry for which we have to take in raw material. We even process the products before we can produce them as finished articles, while abounding round our shores, within a few miles of us, is the raw material for a solid industry with all its subsidiaries. I know it is vain for me to speak in this fashion in a House which, in the main, is not interested in fish and do not even take sufficient interest to study it in order to make themselves familiar with it.

I do not want to see the inshore fishermen destroyed. Rather do I want to see him getting a decent living and a better standard of living under better conditions. I want to see, supplementary and complementary to that development, a general plan in Ireland which will ensure the upholding of the primary interest of the Irish in the matter of making available to them decent fish at a reasonable price.

It cannot be got through this type of legislation, and I can guarantee that to this House. I have experience of the Sea Fisheries Association, and so has the Parliamentary Secretary. I am aware of all the bickering and the rows that can go on there, but the whole fundamental trouble arises from the fact that an industry, which has within itself all the commercial essentials for success, is being hamstrung and hidebound by regulation after regulation. We face a situation that, after 30 years of independence, we have nothing approaching an adequate supply of fish for our people at home landed by Irish fishermen. Certainly we have not adequate facilities for smoking, curing or canning our own fish so that there would be a supply available to our people at periods of a fish shortage.

There is nothing in this Bill holding out any hope to the ordinary Irish person, be he living in the middle of Longford or Westmeath or, indeed, in the fishing ports of Schull or Dingle that he will be able to procure any more fish than he does at present. It is amazing to realise that in Castletownbere, where once upon a time one could not move in the square as a result of the barrels of pickled mackerel ready for dispatch to America, one has to make up to the captain of a Spanish or a British trawler so that he will get a bit of fish from the boat because there is not a bit in the town. I have attracted the House's attention to the appalling situation in the fishing industry ever since I became a Deputy. I did not do so on the basis of politics. I made the case that we have an ever-increasing supply of raw material available to us not only for a fishing industry but for subsidiary industries which would serve their purpose in keeping Irish boys and girls at home and in bringing back the skilled fishermen who are manning the deep-sea trawlers which are leaving Cardiff and Milford Haven to-day.

This Bill has the wrong approach. I will be a lone voice saying this but, nevertheless, I am convinced that I am right when I say that the dead hand of State interference in the fishing industry is not going to improve the situation of supply. It is true that, in his very short history, the Parliamentary Secretary spoke of certain difficulties of finding a market at the present time for pickled herrings or pickled mackerel. Some of these reasons are not too sincere, and the main one was not touched on at all. The main reason for the difficulty in finding a market was that at a later stage of that development adequate attention was not being paid to pickling and that much of the commodity that was shipped from Bere Haven arrived at its destination in such a contaminated condition that it was unfit for consumption. The purpose the State should serve in the fishing industry is to ensure adequate financial provision for the better types of fisherman so that he gets the best possible type of boat and equipment commensurate with the job he has to do. The State should also lay down such minimum standards for pickling, smoking, preserving and canning fish as will ensure a standard uniformity of good quality product in the country. The rest should be left to the endeavour of the inshore fishermen and to the endeavour of the people engaged in the normal commercial usages of the fishing trade. I firmly believe that if this House had the courage to treat fishing as the big industry that it should be, this country could found an industry which could supply prime, well-conditioned fish to the Irish people. There would be also the nucleus of a decent export business in an industry worthy of an island people and of a country of which we are proud.

We have heard from time to time in this House, a good deal of suggestions as to how the fishing industry could be improved. I welcome this Bill as another effort to try to improve such industry. The Parliamentary Secretary has a very difficult job of work before him. We have heard, over a number of years in this House, various suggestions as to what should be done for the fishing industry and sometimes I feel I have reached the stage when I become rather pessimistic about the industry. For that reason, I have great sympathy for the present Parliamentary Secretary in his efforts to try to revive and save this industry. We might as well face the fact that it has reached the stage when it is going to be difficult to put it back on the map again. Fishing committees outside the House are given advice on various branches of the industry. They have gone into a whole lot of them but they have not yet done anything really constructive which would help to build up this industry to such a pitch as befits a country surrounded by sea.

We shall have to face facts. The inshore fisherman to-day complains from time to time that he is getting only a very small price for a certain small type of fish he brings to the market, but I think we must recognise that we have reached the time when the inshore fisherman is not supplying the varied type of fish that the public require. I represent a constituency in which, I suppose, we have some of the best fishermen in Ireland, but I think the Parliamentary Secretary is up against a very serious problem inasmuch as the public demand a varied type of fish. They do not expect to find the same type of fish day after day on the market. Are our inshore fishermen able to meet the requirements for that varied type of fish to the limit of the market, as it exists to-day? In my opinion, they are not— and the question arises why are they not? If this Bill results in the market being supplied consistently with that varied type of fish, it will go a long way towards solving the many problems associated with the fishing industry at present.

During the last seven or eight years I have heard complaints as to the conditions under which certain types of fish were marketed in Dublin. I went to the market to investigate these complaints. I went to the Sea Fisheries Association and I found that there was too much of the same kind of fish being sent to the market by certain fishermen, while there was a keen demand for another type of fish. I do not want to use this House for the purpose of saying anything that I would not be able to stand over outside the House, but I am told on good authority that there is a black market in certain choice fish on the Dublin market. If that is so, it is a sad state of affairs. I am told that certain people come along, buy up all the good variety of fish on the market, and that when the ordinary hoteliers and representatives of restaurants come along, they have to buy it from these people much above the controlled price. If that system of cornering the market does exist in the case of a certain type of fish, then the Parliamentary Secretary will have a difficult job to deal with abuses of that kind. The only way to deal with black market activities of that kind is to ensure that a sufficient supply of varied fish will be made available, and in that way create a keen competition in the market.

I heard another complaint from a man whom I look upon as a decent and responsible citizen. He states that he finds it difficult to get any ray at all. If he wants to get ray, he has to go into the ring, and if he is prepared to pay a very high price for the very limited supply, even for a fish and chip shop, he will get it. The fish and chip shops are up against the same problem of the limited supply of fish which they require. I believe that the Parliamentary Secretary in this Bill is taking a big step towards eliminating the activities of people who are taking advantage of a limited supply to corner the market. I do not know whether all these allegations are true or not. I am giving the rumours for what they are worth. I am not accusing anybody, but I am told that is the position. I am all for the inshore fishermen, but we must be practical. I believe we have reached the time when we have scraped the Channel dry, so far as the east coast is concerned, when we can get only whiting and a few other classes of fish that are not in much demand. Definitely, we have reached the time when, if this industry is going to be of any value to the country, we shall have to go in more for deep-sea trawling.

For many years I have been listening to stories of the time when great fleets of boats were operating from the various harbours in my constituency, such as Howth and Balbriggan. Old men in these districts will tell you stories about the grand herring fleets attached to these harbours and, even though their activities were not always profitable, they carried on. Times have changed very much since those days, so far as the fishing industry is concerned. I do not know whether it is that the fish have disappeared or what is the trouble, but one thing sure is that the Parliamentary Secretary has the toughest job in the whole Government, and he will require not alone good luck, but the goodwill of all sides of the House. It is easy enough to indulge in abuse, but we must be practical in our suggestions to bring about an improvement in this industry. From time to time we have heard suggestions that we should have canning stations here, and that we should also try to smoke fish. I am told by a man in North County Dublin that when he wanted to establish a smoked fish industry, and go in for it in a big way, he could not get sufficient fish from the inshore fishermen. If that is so, it shows the problem which the Parliamentary Secretary is up against. We are, apparently, not landing sufficient fish, except one particular type of which we have got a surplus, to maintain a canning industry. Our harbours, of course, are hopeless with the exception of a few along the east coast. Howth is pretty good if it were dredged periodically. I accompanied the Parliamentary Secretary when he visited some of these harbours, and I can say that his intentions are good, but his activities must be limited by the resources at his disposal. He is anxious to do his best but the funds at his disposal are limited. The previous Minister for Agriculture promised for three years that he would do certain things, but he left office without having fulfilled these promises. We have been told that we should have fish-meal factories and canning factories, and have all our surplus fish smoked. We hear a lot of "boloney" from time to time about what we have not done in this respect.

I am not in favour of a dictatorship even though democracy can sometimes be exploited to such a degree that even the smallest molehill of a grievance can be made into a mountain. I should like to see somebody in charge of this board who knows his job thoroughly, and I hope that the men chosen to work on this board will be competent men whose aim and ambition it will be to put our fishing industry on its feet in as short a time as possible. In order to achieve these ends I believe that these men should be given any power which is necessary to enable them to foster this industry. If they are given the necessary powers and if they are resourceful men with original ideas I believe that the experiment will be worth while and I have great hopes of its success.

The fishing industry is worth only a few hundred thousand pounds to this nation whereas the same industry is worth over £5,000,000 to Norway. The fishing industry is a very lucrative industry in Sweden and in the countries which have coastlines on the North Sea. I have been told by experts that the fishing industry in the countries I have referred to is greater offshore than inshore. We hear a lot of talk from time to time about Spanish trawlers and British trawlers which come to fish around our coast. In order to compete with these trawlers we shall have to make a definite change in our approach to this industry and equip ourselves to go into the very same fishing grounds as these trawlers. According to international convention, these foreign trawlers are free to fish outside the three-mile limit. We should put ourselves in a position to compete with these trawlers which have sometimes to travel long distances to fish.

The only way in which we can materially assist our fishing industry and bring about a situation whereby fresh fish can be obtained in every town and village in the country is by the establishment of a strong departmental board which is given a free hand for a period of four or five years, initally, in order to get a chance of putting their ideas into practice. We do not want a position in which we shall be told by every Tom, Dick and Harry that the State is competing with private enterprise and yet that is exactly the type of remark we shall hear the moment we send fresh fish in a proper condition into the Midlands and those parts of the country which are removed from fishing districts. Unless we make up our minds to give this board adequate power to deal with the fishing situation we must face the position that our fishing industry, such as it is at present, will not survive very long.

I have been told that at one time it was quite common to see 60 or 70 fishing boats at Rush, in North County Dublin, but they have not one there now. The only fishing village of any consequence along that part of the coast is Loughshinny, a few miles north of Rush, where, I suppose, there are the best fishermen in Ireland. At Howth, County Dublin, there are excellent fishermen, too, but there are very few boats. At Balbriggan a few families have managed, by private enterprise, to carry on the fishing tradition and to make a fairly good living for themselves out of it. It is quite obvious to everybody that there is a general decay in our fishing industry and it is up to us to do everything we can to help to foster a revival of that industry which could give so much useful employment. The position now is that if a man can get any other type of work he will not turn to fishing for a livelihood. I trust that we shall be able to treat this project as a commercial venture and to bring about a position whereby it will be possible for people even in those parts of the country which are far removed from fishing districts to procure any particular type of fish they may desire on a Friday and that, even if the weather may be bad and though it may be blowing a gale or a half gale, our boats will be able to go out and bring in the fish, which can then be distributed quickly so as to arrive to the consumer in a fresh condition.

I note that the Parliamentary Secretary is interested in quick freezing and quick transport of the fish when landed in addition to the development of our canning industries and the development of our smoked fish trade with the object, if possible, of enabling us to export fish again as we did in the past. There is no point in saying that State-sponsored bodies are responsible for killing the fishing industry. It is all too easy to throw stones at people who are not in a position to defend themselves. The Sea Fisheries Assocciation tried to provide our fishermen with better boats. For years they tried to persuade our fishermen to get rid of the smaller types of boats which they were using and to use the larger type of boat which they recommended to enable the fishermen to go further offshore for their fish. It is a well-known fact that, as a nation, we are very conservative. It is not easy to get our people to change their methods of work overnight. Somebody must first make the break. That starts a certain amount of talk among his colleagues, who await developments with interest. Eventually, when the others see that the man has profited by his decision to use the larger boat, the others follow his example. We are anxious in North County Dublin to foster the use of a 50-foot boat and to have suitable harbours for these boats. Then we would be in a position to compete with the foreigners who visit our shores. What is the point of our talking about these foreigners fishing off our coasts if we do not fit our own fishermen to compete with these foreigners? When our own fishermen are properly equipped it will be found that there will be an improvement in our industry.

I wish the Parliamentary Secretary luck in this venture. We are all only too well aware that the fishing industry is a very difficult problem at the moment.

It is quite obvious that it is necessary that something should be done for the improvement of the Irish fishing industry. If we compare the position as it exists in this country with the position obtaining in other countries which have a coast-line as long as ours, or even not so long, and approximately the same population, we shall soon realise that we lag a long way behind in this important industry. As I see it those people in this country who want to earn their livelihood by fishing—principally I refer to the inshore fishermen— require a steady and stable occupation and a secure market. Anybody can import smoked fish simply by the payment of the tariff of one penny per lb. At slack periods we in this country are dependent to some extent on smoked fish.

We are a maritime nation and it should be possible for us to procure sufficient fresh fish to maintain ourselves and, when we have not got that fresh fish, with smoked or cured or tinned fish. So long as we permit the promiscuous importation of smoked fish we are depriving our Irish fishermen of a chance to earn a living. No one should be allowed to import fish unless he possesses a smoke-house. That is the only way in which we can stabilise the imports of smoked fish and the only way in which we will be able to regulate the supply of fish to the consuming public. At times, our fishermen find themselves with large catches of fish which they are unable to dispose of. So far as this Bill goes to improve the marketing of fish, we certainly welcome it. Very often, however, fishermen have big hauls of fish, herrings, mackerel, etc., and then they are told there is a glut. They are unable to sell the fish and are told not to go out fishing. There is something wrong with that. The answer to that is that we should develop our smoked fish trade here, and for that purpose our control of imports should be very strictly looked after.

The next thing that comes to mind is, how can fishermen fish unless they have got proper harbours to utilise? There is not a single harbour on the east coast which is not silted up, with the possible exception of Dún Laoghaire and Wicklow, neither of which is a fishing harbour. In South Wexford, we have one harbour in which the boats have no protection whatever against the weather. If an adverse wind is blowing, they can be washed against the breakwater and smashed to smithereens. Another harbour is entirely silted up, although at times of high water the breakwater itself is awash and the boats run the risk of being smashed. I understand that in the country the county councils are responsible for the maintenance of our harbours. That does not seem to be a satisfactory state of affairs judging by the state of our harbours. In any case, what do the county council engineers, with all respect to them, know about harbours or fishing? Their job is mostly dealing with roads and, possibly, drainage work and that sort of thing. In this Bill there is one section dealing with the provision of credit. I hope that some of that credit will be utilised for the purpose of putting our harbours, anyway, on the east coast, into some sort of good condition.

A Deputy on the Government Benches mentioned the extension of the fishing limits as in Norway. I am in full agreement with him. That was recently decided in Norway's favour. Norway's coast line is entirely different from ours; we have our own problems in Ireland. In Dingle Bay there is a deep inlet such as you get in the Norwegian fiords, and the same condition of affairs obtains. Foreign trawlers can go into that inlet while complying with the international law. That is a thing which should be rectified, and I hope that the new board will make representations on the matter.

As to the export of fish, at times we have a surplus of fish which we used to be able to sell on a free market. At present we are at the disadvantage of having to pay a 10 per cent. tariff in British and Northern Ireland ports whereas, as far as I know, their fish are permitted to come freely into this country. That is a matter which the Parliamentary Secretary should look into. There should be reciprocity. The only two ports in the North of Ireland in which it is possible for us to land our fish are Newry and Belfast, neither of which is a fishing port. Anyone who looks at the map will see that it is not easy to get fish up Carlingford Lough into Newry, or up the lough into Belfast. These are matters which should be looked into.

I agree to the fullest extent with what has been stated by Deputies as to credit facilities. The average fisherman is a hard-working, honest, decent man. He is not a capitalist, and is not able to put up £600 for the purchase of a new boat. We are short of fish here because we have not got the boats with which to fish. How can we have the boats to fish with if the fishermen are not in a position to buy them? Fishermen have informed me that they think a 5 per cent. deposit would be a fair one for them, and that they should pay off the money by the fish they catch. I also think that a grant system, such as is in the Housing Bill and which is operative in England and other countries, in fact I think it is operative in most countries, should apply to our Irish fishermen. Why should they be at a disadvantage as against these other countries?

Fishery protection is a subject on which I hold very strong views. The idea that we are adequately protecting our fishermen against the encroachment of foreigners by three corvettes is just nonsense. To start with, the corvettes draw 14 feet and there are only two or three harbours in this country which they can get into. We have three corvettes protecting our fishing rights. One of them is usually refitting and, of the other two, one is generally in Cobh and the other in Dún Laoghaire. Foreign poachers know where they are very well and when it is safe for them to come inside the fishing limit. We will never protect our fishermen with corvettes. They have got the speed, but they have a high superstructure and can be seen on the horizon miles away.

When these corvettes were purchased for the Irish Naval Service they cost £300,000 apiece, or £900,000 in all. To-day you would not get them for £500,000, but they are worthless for the protection of our fishing industry. In our Irish shipyards we could have constructed for something in the neighbourhood of £20,000 boats, boats that would protect our fishing industry, would have a greater speed, as they would probably be able to do 17 or 18 knots, be able to stand up to all sorts of weather, be able to enter all our harbours, and be available at a moment's notice to attack any marauding trawlers which dared to filch our rights. It is time that we did something about that. We had the Muirchu for a great many years, but she was not much good. We then got the corvettes, which may be a better type of craft but are not much use for the job.

I am one of those people who are always suspicious of any new board and dislike State interference where it is possible to have democratic vocational control of private enterprise. I may have a suspicious mind, but I see in this new board an attempt to take over and completely control another aspect of Irish life—the fishing industry.

The Sea Fisheries Association, we read in this Bill, is to be dissolved, and is to be replaced by a board. The constitution of the Sea Fisheries Association, the dissolved body, consisted of a chairman and seven other directors. Three of those directors were nominated by the Minister while the remaining four were elected from the four areas by the fishermen or the representatives of the fishing trade. They are to be substituted by a board of six members, of whom one shall be chairman. All the members are to be nominated by the Minister. The Minister, in his wisdom, may nominate people who have been associated with sea fishing or have, possibly, been associated with the sea, but the difficulty that always arises in these cases is this: will he do so? That remains to be seen. Are we going to have a board of civil servants or a mixture of civil servants and landlubbers controlling the affairs of our Irish fishermen? If we are, then, as sure as I am standing here, the Irish fishing industry is doomed. The Irish fishing industry is not in a good condition at the present moment. The purpose for which this board is being created is to further the interests of the sea fisheries. I am wholeheartedly behind that, but I should like to have an assurance from the Minister, or the Parliamentary Secretary, that it is his intention to nominate, as members of the board, people who understand fishing and who understand the wants of Irish fishermen and those associated with them in the fishing industry.

May I mention a few prices obtaining at the moment with regard to fishing gear so as to try to bring home to the Minister and perhaps to the members of the new board whom he may select, some of the increases which our fishermen are faced with? Due to world conditions, we have had a rise in prices generally. Some of the increases which I am about to mention are certainly most revealing. A mackerel net, which in 1939 cost five guineas, to-day costs £27 19s. I need not tell the House that rope is one of the essentials for fishermen. In 1939 rope was £2 3s. per cwt. The price to-day is £12 19s. The price of herring nets in 1939 was £3 13s. 3d. The price to-day is £17 7s. 6d. Those increases speak for themselves.

There is another matter which I should like to bring to the Minister's notice. It is my considered opinion that the Irish people would like fish if they could get it. I am speaking now for those who live in rural Ireland. I am not interested in Dublin. The Dublin Deputies and the Dublin people are well able to look after themselves. Most of the supplies of fish which we get in this country go to Dublin. My suggestion to the Minister is to distribute those supplies of fish throughout the country. I suggest that the best method of doing so would be to hand the supplies over to the Irish creameries which are scattered over practically every part of the country. Most of the Irish creameries are situate at a rail head, many of them have refrigerators and quite a few of them have got retail establishments. If the Minister would consider my suggestion, and would have it operated through the board, then the people in rural Ireland would have some chance of being able to get a supply of fish. After all, the fishing industry, if properly handled, could be worth a lot to us. It could save us a lot of money. It could be used as a means of increasing our exports because, if we consumed more fish and less bacon and less meat, we would have more bacon and more meat to export.

Deputies have spoken about the deep-sea trawlers. I think that our first and primary duty is to our inshore fishermen. I think that our aim and object should be to increase the size of our boats so that, with a gradual change-over, we would get bigger and better boats. If better credit facilities were made available to our fishermen they would be able to go to the more distant fishing grounds to fish. The fishermen of Ireland deserve well of the country. Anybody who takes an interest in fishing knows that the life of our fishermen is a hard and dangerous one. I am afraid it is only when we hear on the wireless occasionally that another fishing ship has gone down, that many people think of our fishermen. I think this House should do its best for them. I hope that the Minister will constitute a board which will look after the best interests of those brave men who fish around our coast which, I may say, is one of the most hazardous coasts in the world. Therefore, in conclusion, I would express the hope that the House would do its best for those men who go down to the sea in their little ships.

I am sorry that I was not present when the Parliamentary Secretary was moving the Second Reading of this Bill. Neither did I hear some of the earlier speeches which were made on it. I think that in this Bill the Parliamentary Secretary is taking a bold step to place in his hands a weapon which may be used for the better development of this valuable industry. Like the agricultural industry, and the tourist industry about which we have had so much discussion here, the fishing industry is accepted by all as one of our most valuable industries. The declining numbers engaged in it are engaged in productive work of incalculable value to the nation. The development of this industry so as to make it of great benefit to those concerned, and to others who might engage in it if it were properly developed, is going to be no simple or easy task.

I believe that the Bill-provides the necessary machinery, through the board which is to be set up, to make whatever efforts may be necessary to develop on the lines essential to improve the industry. First of all, our aim should be increased production. To get that we must have better marketing facilities. You have there, at the outset, a twofold task which will not be easy to solve.

Let me now say a word about the production end of the industry. If more people are to engage in this valuable industry, they must be given better facilities by way of boats and harbours. The fishermen of to-day are not prepared to face the same hazards as their forefathers did, although, in most areas, they are still compelled to use the same means as their forefathers used in inshore fishing. A better and larger type of boat must be provided in order to make the industry an attractive one and induce people to engage in it in the knowledge that they will have a certain amount of comfort and a certain amount of ease, two qualities which did not attach to the old system under which the inshore fishermen worked. Having provided better boats, better landing facilities will be required. In order to provide such facilities, a good deal of attention must be given to the problem and a great deal of finance must be provided if improvements are to be made in any reasonable time.

Under the Bill, the board will have authority to keep in closer contact with the marketing and landing of fish. Because of that, they should be enabled to undertake the improvement of the facilities for fishermen with less financial risk. Heretofore, boats issued on the instalment system were limited, because the Sea Fisheries Association had to move very warily. Not infrequently, that association discovered that the issue of certain boats was not justified and, having had their fingers burnt, the position was made more difficult for genuine cases that came up subsequently for consideration.

Since this Bill enables the board to maintain closer contact with the landing and sale of fish, the same risk will not apply in the future in relation to the issue of boats on the credit system. It should be possible to give these boats on a very low percentage cash down instalment. The 10 per cent. value of a boat costing £2,000 is more than the average fisherman can afford. In many cases in the past it has precluded the best and most thrifty type of fisherman from engaging in the industry because he could not purchase the type of boat he would like to use. I do not think the board in future will run any risk whatsoever in providing boats for fishermen on a very low percentage cash down instalment. The board will be empowered to maintain continual contact with the landings of fish and with the marketing of the fish landed, and in that way it can secure itself against risk. In fact, there would be nothing to preclude the issue of a boat in future to a genuine crew without any cash down payment whatever.

Landing facilities provide a big difficulty at the moment. I think there are too many people concerned in the development of our harbour facilities. Indeed, it is sometimes difficult to know whether one should apply to the Department of Agriculture, the county council, the Board of Works or the Sea Fisheries Association if one wishes to have repairs carried out to a certain landing-place. I think there should be some consolidation of the interests of these bodies, either directly or indirectly, responsible for particular landing-places. There should be one body responsible for the upkeep and care of our harbours and piers, preferably some body closely in touch with the fishing industry, in order to ensure that any money spent in the direction of improving facilities will be spent wisely and where it is most urgently required.

In this connection I must refer to the lack of decent facilities along the coast of Donegal and the west coast generally. We are sometimes told that the reason why we have not better boats provided in those areas is because we have no proper landing-places. On the other hand we are often told that we have not proper landing-places because our boats are not sufficiently large to justify the expenditure of a lot of money in providing such facilities. One or other must be true. Perhaps the fault lies a little in both directions. The fact remains that if we are to have increased production and allow the same number to engage in the fishing industry along the west coast in the future we must have better boats and better landing facilities. When we have got those we will then increase our supplies of fish, and our next task will be to develop the market in order to consume these additional landings.

Various suggestions have been made for the development of the market. I think the Parliamentary Secretary visualises the development of the home market. I think the export trade is something we must forget about for the moment. We must concentrate on developing the home market. It is very underdeveloped at the moment. I was listening to Deputy Burke speaking a short time ago and I thought it somewhat significant that he should refer to the fact that we ought to have a better supply of fish on Fridays. Therein lies one of our most difficult tasks, since we are all prone to regard Friday as the only day of the week on which we should eat fish.

We do not even get enough of it on that day.

We cannot get it.

There is no reason why fish should not appear on the menu of every catering establishment in the country on every day of the year. If we succeed in doing that, we will succeed in getting a market at home for all our increased production as a result of better boats and better landing facilities. As yet, we have made no effort to develop the home market. One does not need to live in a maritime county like Donegal to realise that there is something seriously wrong when one sees large catches of fish landed at Killybegs and five or ten lorry loads of that fish driven right down through the Midlands into the Dublin market. In many cases that fish is sent back out again to provincial and midland towns the next day.

The board should take in hand this question of distribution and arrange it so that in the provincial towns there will be as constant a supply as possible to each and every district, in order to develop a market and create an increasing demand for what we hope will be increasing supplies.

There are various things which militate against that theory, which seems very simple on paper. One of those is the irregular supply one is bound to have in the haphazard method of fishing which we must have under any conditions. Adequate cold storage will go a certain distance towards solving that problem. There are other things of equal importance if we are to have continuity of supply for a better distribution system. We have not sufficient cured herring or smoked herring on the market. This year the Sea Fisheries Association cured some herrings in Donegal, which found a ready market wherever they went to sell them, but it meant bringing them around and asking people to buy them, just as any commercial concern will put its wares on the market and bring them to shopkeepers and others prepared to sell them. If that were done more generally, there is no reason why a fairly wide market could not be developed for cured herring. That, together with the cold storage, would go a long way towards ensuring continuity of supply, which I believe necessary to the development of the home market on any decent scale.

A few speakers criticised the importation of fish. Importation is to be deplored by everyone, but one must remember that continuity of supply necessitates our importing fish at times, and it is sometimes to the benefit of the home market if we are able to maintain continual supplies. For that reason it is necessary in time of scarcity to import fish, much as we may deplore having to do that.

There is one aspect of the industry which should commend itself to all rural Deputies—in fact, to every Deputy—that is, that it is of necessity a decentralised industry. Under present conditions the tendency is to centralise the market in Dublin, to the detriment of proper distribution; but of necessity it is a decentralised industry and, unlike other projects which people are prone to set up in or around the larger cities, this industry must be brought to the congested areas, to our outlying sea-fishing ports. For that reason alone, it should not be made a stepchild industry of this country but should be rated one of the most important. Every possible means should be tried to develop it, in the interest of the large number who could benefit by it and would undoubtedly benefit if it were on a better basis.

The question as to whether we should have deep-sea fishing or inshore fishing is not really the debatable point some people think it is. I believe it is necessary to have a certain amount of each. We need a certain amount of deep-sea fishing with the larger type of boat in order to ensure more regular supplies and landings of fish.

Of course we do.

In that way you are helping the home market and maintaining the market at the same time. One thing to be commended in the Bill is the fact that it gives the association more close connection with the industry without meddling unnecessarily with it. It gives a closer connection with the landings and the sale of fish. By that means they should be able to use their powers to explore every avenue which might hold possibilities for the development of the market, the improvement of the industry and the widening of the industry to engage more people in it.

I would appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary to undertake a systematic improvement of the landing-places along the west coast and to give serious attention to the provision of a larger type of boat on much easier terms than those available to fishermen now. There is tremendous demand for the 50-foot boat, what we call the half-decker, which is very suited to our inlets and bays along the west coast of Donegal. Very few groups of fishermen—earnest, hardworking and thrifty though they may be—can afford to put down the 10 per cent. necessary to equip themselves with that type of boat. I would appeal to the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary to see that easier facilities are placed at their disposal to purchase these boats, to give them that type of gear which will undoubtedly make the industry a more pleasant and more remunerative one. Then, with improved landing facilities, that will place the industry on a footing where men with a calling for the sea will be proud to remain at home in Ireland to engage in the fishing industry.

Any increase in supplies of fish which should undoubtedly result from the development of the industry on those lines can be very easily disposed of. Those supplies can be used to improve the market to an extent whereby we would have sufficient outlet for any increased landings, and we would eventually reach in this country the stage where one would find fish on the menu of every establishment every day in the week.

I regret to say that this Bill is a complete contradiction of the Bill which was introduced last year by the former Minister for Agriculture, Deputy Dillon. The purpose of the last Bill was to give the inshore fishermen a chance and an opportunity to supply the domestic needs of this country. This Bill disregards the inshore fishermen, inasmuch as it proposes to get a domestic supply even at the expense of putting the inshore fishermen out of business. We know that if the deep-sea fishing industry is developed as it can be according to the provisions of this Bill, there will be no need for the inshore fishermen.

There are thousands of families engaged as inshore fishermen, part-time fishermen, if you wish, and we can realise that the Bill, if put into effect, will leave many of them without their livelihood. If the bias goes in favour of deep-sea trawling we can be certain that the inshore fishing industry will disappear as from the date of the enactment of this Bill. The inshore fishermen have carried on this industry from generation to generation and, as was pointed out by a Deputy, the equipment that the fishermen have to-day is the equipment that was used by their fathers and nowadays the men are not inclined to take the risks which were taken by their predecessors or to endure the same hardships. I quite agree, but I think we can offset that by enacting a Bill which will ensure that all inshore fishermen will be properly equipped so as to enable them to meet the needs of the domestic market.

I would be in favour of deep-sea trawling only in so far as it would bridge the gap between what the inshore fishermen at the present time are capable of supplying and the quantity and types of fish which it is necessary to import. We know that, with the existing equipment, inshore fishermen cannot go to sea in stormy weather. At such a time the deep-sea trawlers could come to the rescue and supply the demand. If the inshore men, given better equipment than they have now, could not fully supply domestic requirements, deep-sea trawling could be permitted. There are many parts of the country where fish cannot be obtained and with their existing equipment the inshore fishermen are not able to bring to shore sufficient fish to fill the requirements.

That makes a good case for the trawlers, does it not?

Yes; that is the point I am making. In that respect, the deep-sea trawlers have scope and an outlet, but I would not be in favour of deep-sea trawlers competing for the market which could be supplied by the inshore fishermen. I believe that the inshore men should be given the chance to supply the market which they have always supplied, and I believe that they could do that if they had better boats and equipment.

Certainly they will not be encouraged to procure expensive equipment and new boats if they know that overnight they will be put into competition with combines, combines perhaps of business men who were never at sea, but who can finance the running and management of a boat. If the inshore fishermen believed for a moment that they would be put in competition with such combines, they would look in some other direction for a livelihood.

I notice that the proposed new board intends to control the fishing industry rather than develop it. I would have liked the Bill to have conveyed to our minds the idea that this board was to be established in order to expand and develop the fishing industry. Instead of that, it is said quite clearly here that the new board is to be established in order to control it. That is an undesirable attitude towards the fishing industry in general, and it is not an encouraging approach. There is nothing in this Bill that offers a better living to the vast majority of the men engaged in the fishing industry. I feel that it should have been the primary object of this Bill to offer some kind of stability, some kind of assurance and a better livelihood to those already engaged in the industry instead of making provision to put into the industry persons who were never previously engaged in it, and who will become engaged in the industry only by virtue of their being able to finance deep-sea trawling.

Section 9 provides that the catch of fish must be handed over to the new board for disposal. It does not give freedom of marketing. I am in favour of any attempt to improve the marketing system, and it can be improved according to reports which I receive from time to time concerning the activities of those engaged in the fishing trade. I hope that the new marketing system will ensure that the consumer will be asked to pay a price in some way related to the price paid to the fishermen. At present there is an inclination to exploit the inshore fisherman. The fish are taken from him and he has no more to do with them, and then he sees the fish on sale at a price far in excess of the price which he got for bringing the fish ashore.

There is no marketing system.

I would favour a marketing system that would give fair play to the producer and to the consumer. In my view the present marketing system does not give the people engaged in fishing that fair play which would induce them to continue in the industry.

It is proposed, of course, that the new board should replace the Sea Fisheries Association. Certainly, its powers will be very much wider. In my view it is not desirable that the powers of the board should be increased. Interference by boards, especially State-sponsored or State-established boards, does not make for the type of efficiency and expansion usually associated with private enterprise. The establishment of the new board appears to me to be the only effective part of the Bill. If it ensures a better measure of fair play for the fishermen it will achieve something.

I regret that the Parliamentary Secretary could not see his way to introduce the Bill that was formerly brought here by the previous Minister, Deputy Dillon.

The inshore fishermen deserved an opportunity of supplying the domestic market. They have not got that opportunity and this Bill is not going to give it to them because, from the very outset, they will have the big combines and deep-sea trawlers in competition with them. I am in favour of deep-sea trawling only in so far as it can supply home needs and possibly develop an export trade. I am not in favour of it so far as putting these smaller fishermen out of business is concerned, these men who were the backbone of the industry down through the years. They have been criticised by previous speakers and it has been said that they fell down on the job and that this Bill is being brought in not alone in order to bridge the gap but to do better than they did, even in the conditions under which they work. This new arrangement will, I think, have the effect of exploiting the public. Here again the controlling influence of the board is going to result in cutting out the competition which is desirable to ensure that the best type of fish will be made available to the consumers at a reasonable price.

What protection has the consumer at the moment from the point of view of price?

He has not got protection. We lack certain fish-meal manufacturing concerns and I feel that they could be established at different parts of the coast. I believe that one is being or has been recently established at Killybegs, but, so far as the fishermen on the eastern coast are concerned, Killybegs will be no help to them. I would be in favour of the establishment of such concerns at different parts of the coast within reasonable distance of the fishermen and of the processing of the fish offal in these places. At present, much of the fish is below standard and has to be discarded. Proper use is not made of the discarded fish because we have not got the necessary equipment.

Similarly, we should have freezing plants in different parts of the country in order to deal with the quantities of fish which may become available. If there is a surplus of fish at present the fishermen must suffer a loss arising from the non-disposal of the fish, or accept a price which is below the cost of production and which will not encourage them to remain in the industry. These freezing plants could deal with the glut of fish which arises at certain times and fish would be available at times of scarcity. I will have an opportunity of speaking on this matter at a later stage and I want to say that I am opposed to the Bill because I think it would have been fairer to the inshore fishermen to give them a chance of supplying the domestic needs instead of putting them in competition with the larger combines.

I welcome this Bill. It is a Bill which, I hope, will go a long way to help those who go down to the sea in ships and eke out a very precarious existence on our rocky coasts. I hope it will also go far in building up our fishing industry into what it should be—one of our principal industries. Now that the Government have realised that it could be an important industry and have appointed a Parliamentary Secretary to look after it, I feel that we are going in the right direction and that in a short time it should rank with agriculture and the tourist trade as one of our best-paying industries. The Government, in appointing a Parliamentary Secretary to look after the fishing industry, are following out the intentions of the first and second Dála, which felt that the industry was of sufficient importance to require the appointment of a separate Minister to look after it. I do not think that since the first and second Dála anything very concrete has been done for it. The fishing industry has been dragged along as the Cinderella of all Governments at the tail-end of the Department of Agriculture. I repeat that the appointment of a separate Parliamentary Secretary is a proper step and I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary will make a success of this industry and give employment to many thousands who could be suitably employed in looking after the fish supplies of the Twenty-Six Counties.

The Parliamentary Secretary is aware that in Donegal the herring industry is our principal fishing, and we have maintained that the herring industry has never received from any of the Governments the attention it deserves. The Department, on the other hand, tell us that it is a very difficult end of the industry, that they are never quite sure when the shoaling of herring will take place, and, in our opinion, they never took the proper steps to deal with the shoaling when it did occur. I should like to point out to the Parliamentary Secretary, who mentioned this in passing in his opening speech, that the shoaling of herrings takes place regularly annually in County Donegal. Fishermen there could almost tell him or his Department on what day of a particular week the shoaling of herring would occur, so it is quite wrong for the Department to say that they have been taken unawares year after year.

Herring fishing is a neglected industry in County Donegal, one we feel that should get a lot more attention from the Department than it has got during he last ten or 20 years. We were glad to have the Parliamentary. Secretary visit the various ports in Donegal last winter, when the herring fishing was at its height. He appreciates the difficulties, as we also appreciate the Department's difficulties, in dealing with such huge quantities of fish suddenly landed at the various ports in Donegal, but I think that the Department should take some steps to deal with those periodic gluts which occur, especially in Donegal. They should take the herring, which might perhaps rot on our piers, and which is the best food in the land, throughout the towns and villages of the Twenty-Six Counties, where a herring is a rarity and a novelty, and so dispose of it in those parts of the country where it would be welcome. It is a strange thing that perhaps 75 per cent. of our villages and towns are crying out for fish. If they got fish regularly it would be a great help to the building up of the trade in Donegal and elsewhere. There is nothing to prevent the Department from making arrangements to dispose of the herring throughout the country. For years and years we have had our eyes on the far corners of the world to sell our fish while the best market lies at our own doors, a market which can be reached within 12 or 24 hours of landing the fish at our ports. A home market is a solid footing on which the industry must eventually be based.

As the Parliamentary Secretary is probably aware, we cure herring in barrels and half-barrels. I would suggest that the new board should consider the manufacture of quarter-barrels for herring. This would be a small amount that could be bought by nearly every household in the land. It would be prime food and inexpensive. Instead of selling barrels and half-barrels with difficulty to some shops—it is a trade, I know, that has fallen off down the years—I think it would be a very good idea if the Department could have quarter-barrels manufactured and so bring the good food, the juicy Donegal herring, into many homes throughout the Twenty-Six Counties.

The development of our fishing along a rocky coast depends a good deal on additional piers and slips. We, in Donegal, have been asking for piers and slips at various points for many years, and in many cases the Department tells us that the fishing industry in that area would not warrant their erection, but local knowledge is much better, in my opinion, than any knowledge any Department here in Dublin has. According to local knowledge, these small piers and slips at various points would help the fishermen to land their supplies in very stormy weather when they cannot go to the larger piers where they have probably landed over the years. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to consider any requests which are backed by fishermen's lore and knowledge, and help the fishermen as well as he possibly can by giving better landing facilities.

Fishing should be one of our largest industries, and I hope that, under the benign influence of the Parliamentary Secretary, who has always taken a deep interest in the industry, it will go far and that, eventually, we will look upon it, not as our third or fourth industry, but as the first industry in this maritime country.

I remember that, in 1938, in this House, I heard Deputy Breslin making the same appeal for the fishing industry as he has made this evening. It is rather strange that we have not made greater progress during all these years. Speaking with the knowledge I have of fishing supplies in Cork City, I think it is amazing that there should be so many days in the week when there is hardly any fish there at all. I know some housewives who go out on Fridays to wait in certain shops for fish. When that situation obtains in a city like Cork, with so many fishing centres around it, you would think that there is something seriously wrong with the whole organisation of the industry.

Deputy Rooney was talking about the danger to inshore fishermen if we adopted trawler fishing, but I suggest that if we are ever to tackle the fishing industry which, I agree with Deputy Breslin, is most important, we must try to do it in a courageous and a big way. I have in mind towns in County Cork, towns of 800 or 1,000 inhabitants, and I feel bold in saying that not 1 per cent. of those people have fish at their disposal on any day of the week. If there was an organisation which would supply them with fish even on three days of the week they would develop a taste for it and a market in this country would be built up.

I remember being in Aberdeen some years ago. I am reminded of it by the points made by Deputies Brennan and Breslin about landing places for fish. I spent eight or nine days there and my real interest was seeing how the fishermen came in with their fish in the morning to the landing-place that was provided and the marketing of the fish at a certain hour in the morning. I can never forget it. To be quite candid, before I went to that city it was a rare thing for me to have fish even on Fridays, but because of the fresh supply of fish and because the people who were with me had such a taste for fish we had hardly any meat on any day of the week I spent in Aberdeen. I would bear out Deputy Brennan by saying that if people had the fish the taste would develop and they would use it very often instead of meat. In Aberdeen, the trawlers came to a special landing-place which was prepared for those fishermen where each put his consignment. The fish was drained into the sea and at 9 o'clock in the morning the sale took place under some kind of marketing board. Hundreds of housewives came there to buy their fish in the morning and they did it in an up-to-date fashion.

The fishermen along the Cork coast have no facilities at all for landing fish—nowhere to do it properly. I agree with Deputy Breslin who mentioned the fishermen around Donegal; why is it that we cannot give these men facilities for landing fish? Is it because we have not sufficient finances? I suggest to the Parliamentary Secretary that that is wrong. If the Parliamentary Secretary will not get sufficient capital to do the things he has been appealed to do to-night he will not make a success of the fishing industry.

With regard to the marketing of fish, I am informed that fish brought into Cork from Kinsale, Ballycotton, Drimoleague and other places in the South go direct to Dublin by lorry. The following day it is sent to Cork and sold to the Cork people. I think that is a scandalous state of affairs. Very often housewives in Cork have to wait until the Fishguard boat comes in order to get fish. Any project that the Parliamentary Secretary might undertake to develop the fishing industry in this country will have universal support. Like Deputy Breslin, I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary's efforts to develop the fishing industry within the next 12 months will meet with success.

Deputy Breslin referred also to the glut of fish. I am informed that one of the great difficulties in regard to buying fish in a big way is that there is no plant to deal with surplus or waste fish. I understand that a fish-meal factory was started in Donegal, but whether that is true or not I do not know.

At Killybegs.

That is not yet in operation.

Let me make this suggestion to the Parliamentary Secretary. Every day of the week mullet come up the River Lee. You could hardly throw a stone into the river without hitting one of them. There are millions of mullet. Could not these be turned into fish-meal if we had the necessary factory? A factory in which this could be done should be established somewhere on the south coast.

Last week we had a good deal of talk about the fishing industry during the discussion of the Tourist Bill. In connection with the setting up of this fishing board, I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will appoint men to this board who are interested in the country, whose roots are in this country and who will endeavour to develop fishing from the national point of view. I do not want to see on this board some of the people I know whose roots are outside the country and who have a grip on the fishing interests of this country for too long. I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will not select men with vested interests to be on the board but will ensure that the men appointed will know something about the fishing industry and will have an interest in the industry from the national point of view.

Another matter that was mentioned to me was that there was no cold storage to deal with surplus fish. Why is that so? Is it that we have not sufficient money? Let me tell the Parliamentary Secretary that I know some people in Cork who are interested in fishing. They are people who are anxious to have fish at their disposal and they are people who would give the Parliamentary Secretary 100 per cent. co-operation in dealing with the matter to which I am referring.

Again, when do the people in the towns of Fermoy, Mallow, Midleton and other places in Cork see a supply of fish? The only time they see fish is when one or two small boxes are brought to the towns in a bit of a car. If there was a constant supply of fish you would find that very soon we would have a very big market. I also agree with Deputy Breslin when he says that we were going to the ends of the earth for a market for our fish when we have a very profitable market at our own doors.

I understand that Lord Kenmare had quite a big lot of fishing rights around Kenmare. I want to know if the Parliamentary Secretary has any information as to whether those rights are for sale. If they are I hope they will be acquired by us rather than by outsiders.

That would not come under a Sea Fisheries Bill. It does not come under this.

I am not at all satisfied that we are dealing courageously with our fishing industry. Why should we not have a couple of trawlers for Cork, two or three for Dublin and one for Limerick, Donegal and places like that? If we had this plant where we could deal with surplus fish there would be no waste. There is a book about Irish fishing and in it was said that Irish fishing would be worth about £60,000,000 a year if it were properly developed. A good many people who had read this book say the author has not exaggerated very much as regards the potentialities of the fishing industry.

I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary's hands will not be tied because of the lack of finance. Our friend from Donegal was pleading some time ago to give boats to those who were prepared to go out to fish and risk their lives. We should trust these men. They should be given those boats if they are prepared to work. In regard to the fishing board, the Parliamentary Secretary should appoint men who want to see the Irish fishing industry developed on national lines and whose roots are in this country and not outside it. If he does that he will get 100 per cent. co-operation from Cork.

Like many other Deputies, I am convinced that, if this sea-fishing industry is run on proper lines, it can become one of the greatest industries, if not the greatest, we have. Throwing back my mind 25 or 30 years, I am convinced that, instead of having progressed, this industry has gone backwards and that to-day, despite the fact that we have roughly 30 years of native Government, the industry is in a worse condition than it was 30 years ago.

I am satisfied that the Parliamentary Secretary is quite sincere in doing what he can to further this industry. I am also satisfied that he must have a good knowledge of the industry for the reason that he comes from a sea-fishing area. I, personally, do not claim to have a great knowledge of the industry for the reason that I live quite a distance from the sea-fishing districts. If the Parliamentary Secretary wants to put this country on its feet, he will have to do what Deputy Hickey suggests. He will have to tackle the problem in a very bold and courageous way. In order to do that he will have to shake off a lot of the red tape that goes on in the Department.

Hear, hear!

He will have to make up his own mind on these matters and not always to be said and led by civil servants. He will need, as other Deputies have said, a considerable amount of money to put this industry on its feet even in a small way.

Surely anybody who casts his mind back over the years must feel ashamed of the way in which this industry has been dealt with by native Governments. It is not a matter for any one county or any one constituency, but it is a national problem that should be tackled courageously. I want to assure the Parliamentary Secretary that my co-operation and advice will be readily forthcoming in the matter of any help I can give him. In my constituency there are many congested areas such-as Achill, Erris and Lacken, in the Killala area, as well as hundreds of other areas throughout the length and breadth of Ireland where the unemployed are forced to go to Great Britain and to the United States in order to earn a livelihood while we have at home the raw materials to provide them with work. It is true that it is the male population of this country who would be principally engaged in the fishing industry. That being so, I am satisfied that if the male population, or a big percentage of the male population, could be employed in this industry, they would settle down in this country, get married and bring up their families. It is a regrettable state of affairs that there is migration from these sea-fishing areas which are in the main Gaelic-speaking, while there is potential employment present in the areas.

As far back as I can remember, our piers and harbours have been going into disrepair. They are being torn by the winds and the storms and not once has a bucketful of concrete been added to them in order to stitch them together. I am satisfied that it is just a case of the stitch in time saving nine, and that a considerable amount of money could have been saved if this work had been put in hand in time.

For some strange reason successive native Governments paid no attention whatsoever to these matters. I have often talked to fishermen in the Achill and Erris areas who have been engaged in the past in this sea-fishing. They pointed out that when they made representations to a particular Department they were told, almost invariably, that the Department in question had no responsibility in this matter and to make representations to such and such a Department. When they did make representations to this other Department they were directed to yet another Department and by that Department probably to the Office of Public Works or to the Mayo County Council. Nobody seemed to want to accept the responsibility for these piers and harbours and, accordingly, they have gone into a terrible state of disrepair. Recently, damage was caused by storm to some piers in the Schull area. When I raised the question here in this House some short time ago I was told by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance that engineers were looking into this matter. If anybody here goes down to Achill and represents himself as being an engineer from any of the Departments concerned with the sea-fishing industry, I suggest to him that he contact the local police sergeant and get a couple of Gardaí to go along with him as well, because the people are fed-up with hearing that engineers are coming to carry out inspections and to make reports throughout the past 20 and 30 years, and they look upon the whole matter as an insult to their intelligence. Therefore, I respectfully suggest to the Parliamentary Secretary to take the bull by the horns, as it were, and to forget about this idea of sending an engineer down to inspect the place.

In the Achill area of North Mayo there is a big industry known as the shark fishing industry. Recently, when I questioned the Parliamentary Secretary in connection with that particular industry I was given figures which showed that the officials of the various Departments knew little or nothing about what is happening down there, despite the fact that something like £50,000 worth of shark was disposed of last year to continental buyers. I do not blame the Parliamentary Secretary for not being conversant with every section of his Department at this stage. I am aware that he is a very busy man, but I would ask him to pay particular attention to these areas and to realise that there are great possibilities in them if only, as I have stated already, he would tackle the problem courageously. He should make arrangements to remove the rocks and stones that have been piling up on these piers in the Achill area in recent times and not be awaiting reports from engineers as to the extent of the damage, or for inspections which result in nothing at all being done.

There are quite a number of people in that area—something like 50 on one particular pier—who earn a good livelihood but, as a result of storm and damage, many of them are deprived of their week's wages. I would like to impress on the Parliamentary Secretary the importance of tackling that work at a very early date, otherwise you will have a repetition of what has occurred in other spheres. You will have more emigration and those people who leave the country will, in all probability, never return for the reason that they have lost all confidence in native government. When you look back on our history, particularly in relation to the sea-fishing industry, you can hardly blame them.

It is one thing to land fish round the seashore, on the side of the pier or in the harbour, but it is another matter entirely to provide proper cold storage and a proper system of distribution. While I do not want to ridicule the methods that are employed by many people who handle our fish, it is regrettable to see the manner in which it is handled from time to time. In small towns throughout rural Ireland you will see, on the occasion of fair days and market days, some fishmonger on a street corner with an old door that has been pulled down out of a stable in some cases, or a sheet of corrugated iron which is filthy and unfit for any piece of food for human consumption to be placed on it. There you will see that fish being offered for sale.

Quite recently a man approached me to know if there was any law whereby he could have removed a fishmonger from outside his door, because he was standing there day after day and the stench that was rising from the fish had actually caused a very serious illness to his mother, and he was very worried about her. Those are the methods we seem to employ in this country with regard, not alone to fish, but to many other things as well. I sincerely hope that the Parliamentary Secretary will do what he can to see that fish is handled in an entirely different way, and that it is offered to the public as any other commodity should be offered to the public. Indeed what is true of fish is true of vegetables and a thousand and one other things that are offered to the public for sale. I very much regret to say that, but it is true.

I am quite satisfied that throughout the inland counties of our country if there were central distributing stations, properly kept and clean as they should be, with a proper system of distribution—something on the lines that Deputy Hickey suggested a while ago existed in Birkenhead 20 or 30 years ago—a system of being there in time in the morning at a regular hour and not arriving at any old time with any class of stuff and expecting the public to continue buying it, a valuable contribution would be made to the industry. After all, the customer is always right. If you stick him with a bad piece of fish on one occasion, he will make sure to have something else, such as eggs, for his breakfast in future.

It seems now we are embarking on something new, on improved methods. I sincerely hope that the Parliamentary Secretary will see to it that it will run on proper lines. There is a wonderful market in this country at the present time, particularly for fish, if the industry is given a fair chance. In my native district, which is out on the mountainside, I remember 15 or 20 years ago when cartloads of herring and other fish would be distributed in that area. I have not seen a bit of fish coming into that area for 15 or 20 years. To-day we have fast motor transport, but the only time that I can ever see or get fish is here in the City of Dublin when I come into it. The members of my family—and hundreds like them are in the same boat—would eat fish if they could get it. Speaking for myself, if I could get fish on Sunday morning, I would eat it in preference to rashers and eggs. In fact, I would eat it seven days of the week—and I am sure there are many people like me—not for patriotic reasons, to be quite candid, but because I like it.

I do not claim to be an authority on health, but doctors on many occasions recommend steamed fish for sick people. The doctor can recommend what he likes in many parts of rural Ireland, and parts that are not far removed from the supply line, but you cannot get the fish. There is plenty of room for improvement and there is no doubt that the home market holds out great possibilities. Somebody suggested to me not so long ago you can have the daily paper printed here in Dublin at 1 o'clock in the morning and have it delivered in the town of Ballina, 150 miles away, when the people come out from first Mass. Why that system cannot be applied to our fishing industry is something I cannot understand. I will say this in fairness and to the credit of the people of Donegal. For a long period of years I have been coming into the city at a rather early hour and on many occasions I have met Donegal lorries returning from Dublin to Donegal at eight or nine in the morning. They have, to my personal knowledge, made some attempt on their own, as far as I know, to put this industry into a shape that it should enjoy in this country.

I have seen a considerable number of people many years ago employed at Killybegs at good wages. Although that is quite some time ago there was every prospect that these people were assured of long-term employment. To-night I wish them good luck if they are getting a fish-meal industry. The citizens of that area did what they could to put that industry on its feet. You can establish all the new boards you like but you must appoint competent men on these boards. It is important that they would be competent and that they would be conversant with this industry. I do not know the men who are connected with this board and I also would like to say that I do not care one straw what politics they hold, but I sincerely hope that they will do what they can to put this industry on its feet.

As I have said, the Parliamentary Secretary must be conversant with this industry and I trust that he will be the driving force behind that organisation. If he puts that industry on its feet he will have done a good day's work in the national interest. It is an industry that can be developed to a great extent. When we reach the stage that, first of all, we can supply our home requirements of fish, I hope that as a maritime country we will be looking forward to the possibility of exporting fish in its different forms to many foreign countries.

I think it was Deputy Dr. Esmonde who said that there were foreign trawlers operating around our shores and that we had no means of protecting the industry against these people. That is true and it will prove quite expensive to provide ways and means by which we can prevent foreign trawlers from coming inside the limit. I have seen them from time to time around our shores and, as somebody pointed out here to-night, I am convinced that some Irishmen, who could not get employment at home, were employed by these foreign companies. They come back here on these foreign trawlers to rob us of what really belongs to the people of this country. Instead of helping to build up this nation, they are helping to build up some foreign power. That should not be the case. The Parliamentary Secretary should take drastic action to ensure that this state of affairs does not continue any longer. It has been going on for far too long.

The question of credit facilities raises another very important aspect. Anyone who talks to fishermen at any point around our shores will be told that it is utterly impossible for them to finance the purchase of suitable fishing gear and suitable boats. As I said at the outset, I do not claim to be an expert either on fishing gear or boats but I know that great difficulty does arise in this connection. I think it was Deputy Dr. Esmonde who said that one of these boats costs something like £600. I understood the cost would be even more.

£600 deposit.

I am sorry. Then it is acquired on the hire-purchase system, which is in itself a difficult system. It means that the purchaser has to pay high interest. If in the first instance he has to deposit £600, and should he run into any misfortune, it may well happen he will lose his life savings. That happened recently in Achill. A young man bought a new boat and had it in the harbour for only a few weeks when a storm came along and he lost it. There should be some system of compensation for people like that. That young man had gone to England and, having saved a certain amount of money there, he came back to this country, invested his savings in the boat in order to earn a livelihood here, and he lost his entire savings as a result of that storm. I put it to the Parliamentary Secretary that there should be some system of providing compensation for such people. We all have some idea of the hazards of the sea, and it is a really heartbreaking thing that one can lose, due to storm damage or otherwise, one's life savings in one night.

I also want to impress on the Parliamentary Secretary the importance of trying to facilitate these people by way of credit. I think we shall have to devise an entirely new system, to place equipment at the disposal of our fishermen who are ready and willing to work. I do not wish to preach defeatism in this House but, with all due respect to native Governments past and present, I say they really allowed this industry to fall into such a state of decay that it will be very difficult for the present Parliamentary Secretary to pull it out of the fire. A considerable time has elapsed since many of these people engaged in fishing. Many of our young men who were bred, born and reared in sea-fishing areas, have little or no knowledge of sea-fishing now, due to the fact that the industry was allowed to fall into a state of decay. Older men around 60 and 70, and perhaps a few up to 80, have the experience, but the younger generation have completely lost touch with it, and it is going to take quite a lot of encouragement to get young men to engage in the industry again.

In some cases they are inclined for it but I say truthfully here to-night that there are certain men in my constituency who would not go back to this work in which their fathers engaged for the reason that they have lost all faith and confidence in a native Government. I do not blame them one bit, having regard to the way in which successive Irish Governments treated the industry.

I want to assure the Parliamentary Secretary that in any movement he initiates for the furtherance of this industry, apart entirely from any political considerations, I shall be with him all the way. I shall be very proud to help him in any way I can, because in helping him in that manner I am helping him in what is a very important matter for this country. The reorganisation of this industry will help to reduce our emigration figures and to provide employment at home. If the Parliamentary Secretary is successful in achieving that aim he will merit the thanks of hundreds of Irish people, not alone here at home but in many foreign lands as well.

I should like to say a few words on this Bill. It purports to deal with the sea-fishing industry of this country. What is that? We are told that, potentially, it is second only to that of agriculture. That is what we purport to deal with. How do we purport to deal with it? Has the machinery proposed in this Bill any hope of success or has it any of the attributes of success? Can this Bill, when it becomes an Act, mobilise all the machinery essential to making a success of this industry?

I do not think so. I do not know how many times, since I first came into this House, I have heard the very same types of speeches being delivered from benches in this House. It is the same old story. I recall speeches that led one to expect that from every corner of Ireland fresh fish of every description—fresh trout, herrings, mackerel, lobster and so forth—would be available for sale every morning. We were led to expect that vans would call every morning at the doors of the people in every town and village of Ireland with fresh fish for sale, asking the housewife how much she wanted and what quality she wanted. That service was to be available right at the door of every house from Donegal to Dublin, from Dublin to Cork, from Malin Head to Mizen Head, and from Clare to Dublin. Having listened to all that type of talk over the years, and having heard it all again this evening, is it any wonder that one begins to despair of any hope for this industry? Is it any wonder that one is sceptical and has little faith in any of the speeches delivered on this subject in this House and that one feels that they are all nothing but pure eyewash.

Who is going to deal with this industry under this Bill? Let us be quite frank and honest about it. A board? Who are they? A body of persons nominated by the Minister. While these persons may be absolutely honest and straightforward men in themselves, right or wrong, they will immediately become suspect by reason of the fact that they were nominated by the Minister. The supporters of the Minister who nominates them will think and say that the men on that board are great men while, to people with a different political outlook, the men on that board will be suspect.

I am at a loss to know whether this Government has any governing principle with regard to administration in connection with the fishing industry. I could warmly approve of this Bill if the Government had adopted the same method of application that they adopted towards what they called the "depressed areas", where the principle of private enterprise is applied. The Minister responsible for the measure dealing with the depressed areas stated that under no conditions would any State industry be set up in these areas. Why is an exception made in the case of these very same areas so far as fishing and this Bill are concerned? What is the answer to that question?

Because private enterprise has failed.

I am loath to say this but I want to be frank. There has been too much stuff and nonsense about this matter down through the years. Has the Parliamentary Secretary introduced this Bill in order to place nominees of his own—and perhaps nominees mainly from West Galway? For the depressed areas Bill, private enterprise was in order— but for the fishing industry which, we are told, is second only to that of agriculture, the State will nominate a body. How do the Government reconcile these two different approaches and explain them?

I am opposed to State control and, therefore, I am opposed to this Bill. It goes against private enterprise—and the fishing industry in Ireland will never be given a chance to develop properly unless it is put in the hands of private enterprise. No board nominated by the Minister will have all the attributes essential to the development, expansion, organisation and success of this industry which we all know has such enormous potentialities. I believe that in ten or 20 years' time I could repeat that statement and that it would still hold good. It is impossible to get a board nominated by a Government to make a success of an enormous industry such as this industry. That is not the way industries are built up or that successful businesses are run. I know too much about it. It cannot be done. You must have the head of the organisation on the spot—a man who will take responsibility there on the spot, arrive at decisions and have the power and control to carry them into execution.

When the last Fisheries Bill was introduced into this House I sat on these benches and, having heard all the speeches and bright forecasts, expected that in no time at all we should see vans loaded with fresh fish travelling all around the country and that at last cheap food would be made available for the poor people of the country who find it so difficult to eke out an existence and who, very often, cannot afford to buy fresh meat. What, in fact, resulted from the passing of that Act? Imagine a mackerel—the poorest and coarsest type of fish you can buy—costing 9d. apiece in Dublin. Think of the plight of a poor woman on a fast day or, perhaps, on a day when she has not enough money to purchase fresh meat. Is it not a shame that such a woman must pay 9d. for a mackerel, which is the very coarsest type of fish which you can buy?

Why not let private enterprise come along and do something better, Deputy?

That is the result of the State machinery. Here and now I ask the Parliamentary Secretary to withdraw this Bill and bring it back to this House in the same form as the Bill which was prepared for the depressed areas and hand this industry over to private enterprise. It is the duty of the Government to make money available for this vitally important industry in the same way as it was made available for other industries to be set up in the depressed areas. This Bill in only a temporary sop. Here we have a great national industry which, in the proper hands, could be developed to the benefit of the people of the country in general. If a reasonable sum is made available to help private enterprise in this industry, then men of excellent business capacity will come forward and help to develop all the different aspects of this industry, because it has numerous facets, each of which must be fully developed in order to make a complete success of the industry as a whole. However, in order to achieve that success it is essential to get the co-operation of men who have been trained in big business, because this is going to be big business or else a sham, just like the other bodies set up under every Bill that went through this House over the past 25 years: mere junk. What happens if a person in a town or village in Donegal wants to buy fish? The fish is landed within a radius, perhaps, of 30 miles of the particular town. What is the procedure? When the fish is caught it is sent off immediately to Dublin and dealt with there just in order to give profits to agents. It is then sent back by rail from Dublin, so that the people in these villages which are so close to the coast of Donegal, have to pay a high price for the fish which is handled in that manner. Did anybody ever hear of such nonsensical handling of that business under Government patronage? Governments cannot run businesses. I have said that here on different occasions and I repeat it to-night. I have no more faith——

Who is going to run this industry where private enterprise fails?

The doctor can make his own speech. I hope that I know what I am talking about. I am talking honestly, not hypocritically. I have not the slightest faith in this Bill. It is another attempt to put a new face on this matter, pretending that we are doing something, that we are going to save this industry and do something for the fishermen. The Parliamentary Secretary, being from West Galway, which is a fishing district, is going to save this industry —yes, until the next election.

I look upon this as being a prodigious task which would require all the genius of trained first-class industrialists to make a success of it. Anything else is only mere sham. We are only dabbling with the matter, and we will not get anywhere. Speeches were made to-night which were a sort of facing both ways. We are to protect inshore fishermen on the one hand, and then, when they are unable to land sufficient fish, we are to get the trawlers ready and send them out. Can we do any business in that way? What is the use of making speeches of that kind? How could you expect any business man to make a success of his business if it were run on these lines?

Who are to be the members of this board? What business training and experience will they have to build up what is capable of being made a huge industry? Where will they come from? From past experience of public life in this country, I can conceive nobody being on this board except men who are political nominees. In the past there has been no exception to that. We will get a collection of political nominees, and we are asked to believe that they will make a success of this industry which, as I said already, could be made an industry second only to agriculture. Has the Parliamentary Secretary conceived what making a success of that means? Has he any experience of an extensive business which would give him a grasp of the problem involved? Is it merely that he is just a Parliamentary Secretary in charge of a Bill, who wants to put it through, and wants to make it appear that he is going to save this industry and provide for all the fishermen around our shores? He is not going to do it; he cannot do it. The machinery is all wrong, and cannot and will not succeed.

We are voting taxpayers' money for what should be a huge industry able to get its own capital from private sources and stand on its own legs as a private industry. In my opinion, it is completely wrong to make this a State organisation. It is a matter for private enterprise. The Government tell us that they stand for private enterprise. Here is a potentially large industry which could be second only to agriculture and the State is taking control of it. Why should they adopt the principle of private enterprise for the depressed areas and of State control under this Bill, which applies to the very same areas? How do they reconcile that? Are they trying to have it both ways—private enterprise one day when it suits, and State control the next day when it suits? If the principle of private enterprise was justified in connection with the depressed areas, it should be adopted in connection with this Bill.

What is this body sitting in Dublin going to do? Having some experience in a limited way of running a business, it seems to me to be a joke. We are told that there is a market for fish in Ireland. We have lost it owing to the way the fishing industry has been dealt with. The Irish public have lost all taste for fish. That can be restored, but it will take men with a business training to do it; men who know how to carry on a propaganda campaign to get the public to buy fish. It cannot be done by merely passing a Bill. We have not had put before us any idea of the machinery to be set up to deal with the problem, not to mention the details of that machinery. If a success is to be made of this, it will not be done by trying to make people believe that everything in the garden is lovely. These speeches were made without any appreciation of the magnitude of the problem. The House should not be under the delusion that the machinery to be set up under this Bill will ever make a success of this industry. I will stake my reputation on that.

I profoundly regret that the principle of private enterprise applied to the depressed areas was not adopted in this Bill. There are able business men in this country quite capable of taking charge and providing machinery to deal with this problem. There is plenty of capital lying dormant in this country. Even if it could not be got in this country, it could be got in other countries at a nominal interest. Could not money be mobilised for that purpose and men got who are capable of running a huge industry such as this might be made into? If that is not done, it will die. We must first lay a proper foundation for it. That is the first essential in building up any industry, because you cannot build a sound edifice on a foundation of sand. I have no hope for the success of this Bill after the tragic experience we have had in connection with all the other Fishery Bills passed in this House which practically killed the fishing industry in this country. The fishing industry in one of the best fishing ports in my constituency is now practically dead. Is not that a terrible commentary after 30 years of self-government? The Congested Districts Board, which was treated with contempt and swept out of existence, kept that place alive by having boats built there and thus giving employment.

I move the adjournment of the debate.

Debate adjourned.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 12th March.
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