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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 13 Mar 1952

Vol. 129 No. 13

Committee on Finance. - Motion by Minister for Finance (Resumed).

When I moved the Adjournment last night I was indicating that Deputy Costello, though he made a very able and eloquent speech and one which we would all commend for its industry and eloquence, was in the position of a very able counsel handling the rottenest brief that ever was handed to a member of the Bar. The reason for that is the fact that he was trying to put across to the House a case which was decried and disowned by his own Minister for Finance when he was in office. I indicated last night that Deputy McGilligan, 12 months ago, had given the same summary of the economic and financial position of the nation to-day as the Minister for Finance did last night. I indicated also that Deputy McGilligan emphasised the fact that our balance of payments is so unsatisfactory—or was so unsatisfactory when he introduced his Budget statement last year—that, unless it improved, corrective measures would be called for.

There we have a very clear indication that Deputy McGilligan as Minister for Finance realised fully the serious economic and financial position of the nation. But unfortunately, for political reasons, he was not prepared in his Budget statement or in the Budget which he introduced at that time to take measures to improve the position. Neither were his fellow Ministers prepared to emphasise the very serious points which he had raised. In fact, the entire jazz-band of the inter-Party Government was concentrated in all its sounding fury on drowning the small tin whistle of the Minister for Finance in the inter-Party Government. I suppose that at that time the Government were actuated by a feeling that the best political card to play was to keep on emphasising their claim that the nation was never so prosperous in living memory and that nothing but prosperity faced our people. They knew perfectly well, just as Deputy McGilligan knew, that the external balance of payments was going against this nation. They knew perfectly well that, as Deputy McGilligan emphasised, the country even at that time was living far beyond its means. They were not prepared, however, to take any measures to improve the position.

Now, when a programme of effort is being outlined for the nation with a view to improving the position, they raise a howl of protest. I would strongly urge the Minister for Finance and the Government not to be deterred or intimidated by the wails of the lost souls at the other side of the table. They are not concerned about the future development of the nation; they are simply howling for the jobs they have lost.

Let us ask ourselves seriously whether there is anything wrong with the programme of development which has been outlined by the Government in the speeches of the Minister for Finance, the Tánaiste and the other members of the Government. What is that programme but a programme of intensive development of our resources? Deputy Costello for some reason or other thinks that he can formulate a policy by brooding over certain set phrases, such as "increased capital investment", the necessity for "a double Budget" and all those other catch words which mean nothing. For a long time yesterday he talked about a double Budget as something which would save the whole financial and economic position of the nation. We all know that the double Budget means very little. Speaking as a layman, I think it is an undesirable way in which to present the Book of Estimates. Capital and current items of expenditure can always be clearly identified, and I think it should be the function of the Government, when budgeting at the beginning of the financial year, to decide how much or how little to borrow and their decision should be based upon the financial and economic needs of the nation. They should not be put into a sort of strait-jacket and compelled to borrow a certain specified sum and to raise other sums from taxation.

Facing the future as it is our duty to face it when we are voting a considerable amount of money to carry the nation over the next three or four months, it is well to consider what are the most urgent needs of the moment, and I think that every serious-minded Deputy will acknowledge that the most urgent need of the moment is increased agricultural and industrial output. So far as agricultural output is concerned, I pointed out last night that it has been steadily declining over the past three or four years. Some Deputies of the Fine Gael Party find it difficult to believe that, because they have been so mesmerised by the audacious assertions of their Minister for Agriculture that they were led to believe that there had been an enormous expansion in agricultural output, but the figures are clear and cannot be disputed.

If we take 100 as the basic figure for agricultural output in 1939, we find that it rose by 12 per cent. in 1945. The index figure for the value of net agricultural output in 1945 was 112, including turf, but, if we leave out turf, we find that the basic figure for agricultural output in 1945 was 110.5, and, in 1950, after all the progress made by the inter-Party Government and by Deputy Dillon as Minister for Agriculture, the figure had gone down to 97.8. That was the sum total of the achievement of the inter-Party Government in regard to agricultural production. They forced the net output of agriculture down to a level of 3 per cent. below the 1938 level, in spite of all the talk about scientific development, increased use of fertilisers and all the other boasts made here about agricultural expansion.

Deputy Dillon was forced last week to go to the Statistics Office and try to get the figures of agricultural output revised, so as to prove that he had not been as great a failure in his position as Minister as these objective figures indicated. He put up to the Statistics Office the proposition that account should be taken not only of the volume of agricultural output as sold off the farm but of live stock on the farm, of changes in the number of live stock on the farm at the end of the year as compared with the beginning of the year. Having found the figure representing those changes, he had it added to the figure for gross agricultural output. It is an extraordinary thing that the inter-Party Government should claim credit not for what was produced by the agricultural industry in this country, but for what was produced in the United States, in Australia, and in Asia. Gross agricultural output, as the wording implies, is gross agricultural output, with imported feeding stuffs, fertilisers and all other imported raw materials used in agricultural production added in. In other words, Deputy Dillon, in an attempt to bolster up his failure in regard to agricultural policy, sought to take credit for the £6,000,000 worth of maize which was imported in 1950.

I have always tried to be absolutely fair and objective in dealing with matters of this kind and when Deputy Dillon came into the House and suggested that account should be taken of the changes in the number of live stock when computing agricultural output, I considered that some case could be made for that proposal and I, therefore, thought it desirable to seek from the Statistics Office the relevant figures for the net volume of agricultural output, with the changes in the number of live stock taken into account in calculating it. I have here the figures I received. Taking 1938 as 100, the official index figure for net agricultural output, adjusted for changes in live stock and excluding turf-therefore, giving Deputy Dillon all the advantages—in 1940, was 102; in 1941, 98; 1942, 107; 1943, 109; 1944, 107; 1945, 111.4, and 1950, 100; which was back to the 1938 level. On Deputy Dillon's own basis, on the index figure calculated according to his own suggestion, we find the net result of Deputy Dillon's and the inter-Party Government's agricultural policy. I stress this because I feel that there is an urgent need for reform and very far-reaching reform in general agricultural policy and that cannot be done unless we take note of the mistakes of the past three or four years. We must ask ourselves where we went wrong and I think that it can be very readily acknowledged that our first step in the wrong direction was when the Minister for Agriculture in the last Government set out to drive the farmers away from tillage.

That would be more relevant on the main Estimate.

I agree, but we are dealing with general policy——

In a general way, not in detail with a particular Department.

——and in doing that I must give some indication of what I think would constitute a sound national economic policy. Otherwise we are voting a large sum of money to the Government without giving the Government any indication of how we think this money should be used in the nation's interest.

Broad general policy, yes, but the Deputy is going into details of agricultural policy.

May I submit to you very respectfully that I in my speech, with your kind forbearance, enlarged at some length on the balance of payments problem, and pointed out that one of the ways in which we might be able to solve it was by expanding agricultural production? That, I think, would put some large part of what the Deputy is saying in order.

On a point of order. I take it that every Opposition Deputy who is to speak on this matter will be entitled to enlarge upon it to the same extent as Deputy Cogan.

I am not anxious to allow the Deputy to enlarge upon agricultural policy. I will allow him to proceed to a certain extent on the general policy of the Government. I cannot allow him to enlarge in that way because some other Deputy may want to go into detail regarding the Department of Industry and Commerce or the Department of Local Government, and the whole lot would be raised for discussion. The Deputy may glance over the matter, but I do not want him to go over details of the whole policy such as the change over from cattle production to tillage.

I have no intention of doing so, but it is my duty to indicate that this nation can make no progress whatever unless the balance be redressed, first of all in favour of agriculture, and, secondly, within the agricultural industry in favour of more production from the land. Is it not true that although we are proposing to spend £94,000,000 the position at the present time in this agricultural country is that any young man who wants to make a good living will naturally turn his steps from the land because he would earn more elsewhere? Any man who has money to invest in the development of our nation and who wants at the same time to make a substantial profit will turn from agriculture to commerce and industry. Is it not also true that any man who decides to engage in agriculture, to put his money in the land, will find that he will get a bigger, a better and an easier return by growing Deputy Dillon's favourite crop, grass, than by cultivating the land?

That is an appalling situation which has driven tens of thousands of people away from the land. It has created a problem of unemployment in our cities and of under-employment on the land and it has denuded the rural areas. Should it not be the first task of our Government to set themselves deliberately to tilt the scale in favour of more intensive agriculture? I believe that the scale is being tilted and deliberately tilted against intensive production on the land. While we have been following a policy which was believed to be a policy of imported cheap feeding-stuffs leading to increased export of eggs, bacon and other products to Great Britain, we have had instead a position where those feeding-stuffs were not available and after our farmers had been discouraged from producing feeding-stuffs for their live stock and poultry the imported food for them was not available and there was a retraction in the total volume of agricultural output. The policy of the inter-Party Government during their three years of office——

And the Deputy supported it.

Let us be clear.

Deputy Davin knows that I supported the inter-Party Government's agricultural policy for the first year while it was getting a trial but I voted against the Agriculture Estimate in the second year the inter-Party Government were in office and again in the third year. In the clearest possible way I indicated by my vote that they had failed and, having turned away from a sound agricultural policy, were pursuing a line which had driven agricultural workers off the land, would reduce the volume of agricultural output and would mean eventually the economic decay and ruin of our little nation.

It was all personal spite. Does everyone not know that?

I have said from time to time that the Deputy reminded me of a new-born infant in his intellectual capacity.

I do not pay much attention to what the Deputy says anyway.

It is altogether wrong to suggest that any Deputy in this House would be actuated by personal spite. I have never shown or indicated any ill-will towards any Deputy during the 13 years I have spent in this House but I have been prepared to fight against any policy which I considered wrong. Deputy Davin, on the other hand, who claims to represent the agricultural workers, was prepared, in order to keep a certain Party in power and to keep another Party out, to support a grass policy which drove tens of thousands of agricultural workers out of agriculture and out of employment.

Now, Deputy Davin, that is one for you.

I am waiting to hear Deputy Burke.

As a result of the policy of Deputy Davin—I will not mention Deputy Dillon at all—whose Government advocated one more cow, one more sow, one more acre under the plough, the number of cows went down by 1 per cent. in the last year of the inter-Party Government's office.

The Deputy is keeping exclusively to the details of agricultural policy. I endeavoured to warn him off that ten minutes ago and he is still at it.

I feel it necessary that Deputy Davin should have the percentage figures of the reduction in output, and if you will allow me I will give them.

I would not deny them to Deputy Davin for anything.

If this nation is to make progress we must endeavour to break the bottlenecks which hold up expansion and I think it is an appalling thing that the Government that talked of one more cow has presented a position in which the number of in-calf heifers was down by 33,000 or 29 per cent. of the total. The picture of a reduction of 500,000 in the acreage of tillage presents an indication of agricultural decay which must be arrested if our nation is to make progress. Deputy Davin is very anxious that I should get away from dealing too much with his support of a grass policy. I was not dealing with agriculture at all. I was dealing with a grass policy. It was a grass policy instead of an agricultural policy which Deputy Davin supported.

That is typical of the Carlow County Council.

During the late years of the administration of the inter-Party Government there was a great deal of talking or boasting about the ability of that Government to avoid increasing taxation. Any Government, I would say, can avoid increasing taxation for an indefinite period if they are prepared to sink deeper and deeper in debt. In three years I think £76,000,000 was added to the national debt. If a Government can go on borrowing without any ill results either to the national economy or to the people generally it is right to go on borrowing. Unfortunately there are evil results, a fact which Deputy McGilligan pointed out to us last year in his Budget statement.

On that occasion he mentioned the evil results of extensive borrowing to meet current expenditure, and he referred to the serious situation which had arisen, according to him, last year, but which had been arriving for some time previous, in which there was too much money attracting too many imports; in other words the policy of extensive borrowing for ordinary revenue purposes or for purposes of current expenditure had resulted in inflation. An increase in the volume of unnecessary imports was the inevitable result of a policy of spending freely without raising the money in the ordinary way. It is very clear that that policy was unsound, as Deputy McGilligan admitted before he went out of office, and it is just beating the air for Deputy Costello or any other member of the Opposition to claim that it is undesirable to seek to correct that position.

In the course of his speech last night, Deputy Costello indicated that agricultural output should be increased and that the agricultural industry would make progress if there was more capital investment in that industry. Like many of his supporters, he likes to dwell very extensively upon this question of an increase in capital investment, but during the whole period that the inter-Party Government was in power I found very little willingness on the part of the inter-Party Government to invest any money in agriculture with the exception of the comparatively small amount which was invested in land reclamation. The whole country was completely bam-boozled with the cry about £40,000,000 for land reclamation. Of course, there was never any intention of spending that £40,000,000. At the rate at which expenditure was incurred on land reclamation, that £40,000,000 would not be spent in 50 years.

What about the Works Act you are now repealing?

Deputy Cogan on the Vote on Account.

Frequently during the period that Government was in power at every available opportunity I stressed the necessity and the desirability of putting more money into agriculture, of giving the young people, particularly in agriculture, some help to start out and become the owners of live stock in order to improve their position. I have always thought it wrong that young farmers should live for half their lives without owning anything and merely being dependents upon their parents. I thought a forward move should be made and I did hope that it would be made. It was not made and every appeal I put forward—and I had to make many an appeal to the inter-Party Government for increased facilities for agricultural development—was turned down and treated with absolute contempt.

Yet to-day, when the inter-Party Government is out of power, Deputy Costello comes into this House and says he is all for increased investment in agriculture, for providing increased funds to help farmers. Why did he not do it when he was in office? Why did he allow farmers to be driven out of the production of cattle? That is a question I would like some members of what was at the outset the inter-Party Government, but which developed in the later stages into a cocktail Party, to tell us why they were unwilling to make available to agriculture the necessary facilities during their years of office.

Why did you increase the loan charges by ½ per cent.? Was it on your recommendation?

Deputy Davin will have an opportunity of asking all those questions at a later stage.

I believe an effort is being made now to add to the credit facilities available to agriculture, but I would suggest that it must go a good deal further if any real and extensive development is to be made.

Would the Deputy indicate the efforts being made now?

There are efforts.

Tell us what they are.

Deputy Cogan is entitled to make a statement.

The Deputy should talk about barley.

Is Deputy Morrissey so ill-informed in regard to agricultural conditions and agricultural production generally that he is not aware that certain credit facilities are being made available for the purchase of seed wheat, for the purchase of machinery and for the purchase of cattle?

At 5 per cent.

These are steps in the right direction, but I will repeat what I said at the outset. We must go a great deal further so as to help the policy not only in regard to agriculture but in regard to industry and to every branch of our national development. The policy must be one of incentive; incentive to the businessman to improve his business, incentive to the manufacturer who wants to extend his factory and incentive to the farmer who wants to enlarge the output of his farm. The incentives at the present time for the best form of development are not sufficient, and they have got to be improved. It pays better to grow grass than to till. If one is carrying on grass farming it pays better to keep the right stock than to keep cows. These are matters which have got to be corrected, one by one, until we reach the stage when we can go forward vigorously and with determination. In this connection, I want to inform Deputy Morrissey that his Party have been engaged in a campaign to prevent increased agricultural production. An alleged member of the Bar has been campaigning down in my constituency trying to discourage farmers against growing beet. Unfortunately for himself, the individual in question knows very little about agriculture because he went down to a mountainous district where no beet had ever been grown and where there was no likelihood of beet ever being grown——

I can name a few others who have been giving that advice, and they do not belong to the Fine Gael Party. The Deputy, who is an experienced grower of beet, would know all about that.

I have grown beet since 1925, and I will continue to grow it despite the advice of the Fine Gael Party. I feel there is a national obligation on us farmers to grow beet whether or not we are satisfied with the price. We are obliged to provide the foodstuffs necessary for our people, and we must also endeavour to grow the greatest possible acreage of wheat. I feel it is well to make it clear at the outset that a very narrow circle of the Fine Gael Party has been campaigning against the growing of wheat and beet in this country. As far as I am concerned, I am prepared to campaign in every possible way for an increased acreage of both crops. I am prepared to undertake, and I have, in fact, undertaken to increase the acreage of both wheat and beet on my own farm. If Deputy Morrissey wants to suggest that people outside the Fine Gael Party are campaigning against the growing of beet, he is completely wrong.

At a time when there is a general national call being made to the farming community asking them to increase production in every possible way, the Minister for Finance has heard a charge levelled by one of his own supporters in the House that the Fine Gael Party——

Deputy Cogan rose.

The Deputy gave way.

I thought Deputy Mulcahy was raising a point of order.

I am raising a point of order. Is it in order, within the range of the Vote on Account, for a Deputy to get up in this House, and, at a time when there is a national appeal being made for increased production in which all Parties are taking part, to make a charge that the Fine Gael Party is opposing increased production and urging on the farmers to drop production on certain lines?

That is not a point of order. Deputy Cogan on the Vote on Account. I would like to warn the Deputy that I have allowed him more latitude than I am inclined to continue. He has travelled the whole ambit of the agricultural policy which would be more relevant to the Estimate on Agriculture. I warn him that I will be more strict in future.

On a point of order. Am I to take it then that we will not be allowed to traverse the ground of charge that the Deputy has brought against this Party?

I only said that what Deputy Mulcahy raised is not a point of order or a point with which the Chair can deal.

In any case it does not matter what the Deputy says.

I will give you a few names if you want them.

I will give a few too.

Deputy Mulcahy will have an opportunity of speaking, and I trust he will rise to the occasion and will appeal for an increased acreage of wheat and beet.

We will be discussing a very important matter, and we will not want to hunt every dirty hare which Deputy Cogan wishes to raise around the place.

If Deputy Mulcahy wants to describe a young barrister named Esmonde as a dirty hare, I do not entirely agree with that.

I will ask the Deputy to withdraw that remark.

We have no means of knowing to whom he has referred. Barristers have been called many things in their time.

He has named him.

I do not think there is anything to withdraw because, as I said already, I do not know to whom he is referring. Deputy Cogan on the Vote on Account.

I have almost concluded. I would just like to refer to one point raised by the Minister for Finance and by Deputy Costello, and that is in connection with the free lime subsidy in regard to which there is money being provided in this Estimate. Suggestions were made that this money ought not to be provided. I would like to point out that I am in complete agreement with the provision of this increased subsidy. It seems to me to be a very desirable step, and I would also like to say that I advocated that step for three years in spite of the fiercest opposition from the former Minister for Agriculture who prevented such subsidy being given.

I just want to tell the Deputy that he has exhausted my patience.

He has got Deputy Dillon on the brain.

I will put it the other way, he has more brains than Deputy Dillon.

If it is not in order to discuss the lime subsidy to-day, I will reserve what I have to say until the introduction of the Supplementary Estimate. In that case, I will discuss it in relation to the general question of money being voted by the United States Government and not accepted by our Government. If, as suggested, an agreement was entered into between the American Government and the Irish Government in November, 1950, that this money would be paid over to the Irish Government, I am sure the American Government will honour that.

Hear, hear, if it was.

I have the greatest sympathy for Deputy Cogan. I think it was about this time three years ago that he described the Minister he now seems to be taking to his bosom as being "an old senile delinquent."

He was not so tautological as all that.

I never used that expression.

He conveyed the impression that his idea of the Minister for Finance was that of a kind of a cunning old rogue who had reached the doddering stage and that the House was to be on its guard against him, even though he was senile. That, however, has nothing to do with the Vote on Account. Deputy Cogan seems to be very concerned about the agricultural community. Having regard to the fact that agriculture is the principal industry in the country, that we all profess to be deeply interested in its welfare and in that of those who are engaged in it, I think that, on an occasion such as this, instead of trying to score politically we should get down to a broad approach to the whole problem of putting agriculture in a sound and safe position. We should take it from the position we see it in and improve it.

A call has gone from the Government several times that production must be increased. That, presumably, includes industrial production as well as agricultural production but industrial production has not by any means the same volume as agricultural production. The emphasis, I take it, should be on agriculture then. I do not agree with Deputy Cogan that the way to increase agricultural production is by taking the foundation stones from under it and encouraging the people who would be most helpful in agriculture, the young able-bodied men, to leave the country or seek some other occupation, either within or outside the country.

It might do no harm if we gave a glance over the position to-day and the position last year. Whatever fault the inter-Party Government may have had, I think that drainage, both arterial and local authorities' drainage, coupled with land reclamation, was one of the greatest drives to increase agricultural production and to put farmers in a sound position that was ever undertaken by any Government in this country. I think that holding down arterial drainage and reducing by roughly 50 per cent. local authorities' drainage, which was one of the most beneficial Acts for the rural landowner, were two deadly blows to increased agricultural production.

I think the Government, in allowing the cost of fertilisers to be increased from £5 to £7 per ton, deprived many small farmers from taking advantage of fertilisers. I think that is also very, very wrong. That is the most puzzling feature of the present Government who always parade themselves as being an out and out Irish Party, a Republican Party, but the Republican Party has been dropped.

Separatists.

I would ask Deputy Cogan not to leave the House.

I have been called out.

I should like the Deputy to come back to hear one point which is in relation to credit for Irish farmers. One thing I cannot understand is why the Fianna Fáil Government left a vast sum of sterling assets in England, assets which were built up during the war years and which were the result of the sale of Irish agricultural produce. That sum of sterling assets which was built up, principally as a result of the sale of agricultural produce from this country to Britain, was left in England at a ½ per cent. and was denied to the Irish farmers for the development of their land.

We brought back quite a considerable sum of that and proceeded to put the land of Ireland in as good order as we possibly could in the time we had at our disposal. We now find that, if the Irish farmer wants a loan, the Government which is prepared to give the cash realised from the sale of Irish agricultural produce to the British at ½ per cent, now increases the rate for loans to farmers under a new scheme by the Agricultural Credit Corporation from 4½ to 5 per cent. In other words, money realised from the sale of agricultural produce of the land of this country was left to England for whatever the British Government wished to do with it at a ½ per cent. but when our farmers want money from an Irish Government they must pay 5 per cent.

Having regard to the little canter which the Minister for Finance took across the water lately and the fact that he has been sending warm messages of sympathy to Mr. Butler in the middle of his Budget, I ask myself why was this country freed at all?

You did not do much to free it.

Whatever I did to free or unfree it, I certainly did not make an attempt to join the British Army at a time when this country was trying to do its best.

Nor any other army.

Let us keep to the Vote on Account.

The Minister for Finance was a soldier of Ireland when soldiers of Ireland were few anyway.

I would not like to be unjust to the Minister for Finance in whatever he tried to do at that time and I think it would be cheap not to give him whatever credit that is coming to him. Agriculture at the present time is suffering from under-capitalisation, emigration or movement away from the land. The very best of our population are being forced to flee from the land. We seem to have been sorely afflicted with a number of cranks offering free cures for every possible ill the farmer has and the result is anything but encouraging.

I want to deal with one other point. The Minister for Finance in his speech in presenting the Vote on Account mentioned forestry, a particular Department that was under my control during the inter-Party Government. I want to accuse him of misleading the House when he says that £231,000 of a reduction in this year's Estimate was due to stockpiling by me on behalf of forestry. A certain amount of stockpiling did take place. I want to ask a question in that connection. At a time when the Korean situation seemed to threaten a world conflict, was it wrong for me to lay in a supply of fencing materials to carry the Forestry Department over a number of years? I might ask another question. Was it wrong for the Minister for Agriculture to bring in the famous fertilisers which the Minister for Local Government and the Minister for Industry and Commerce tried to make out did not exist until they were compelled to produce the figures?

Where is this?

I offer no apology for the stockpiling I did.

What you want to do is to make an apology to this House for using up the stocks which you found there.

I was wrong in piling up the stocks. Now it seems that my chief crime was having used the stocks that were there. Under the Fianna Fáil Government, forestry was put on the long finger, and very much on the long finger. Not alone were there no stocks of fencing materials when I took over, but there was not even a policy nor a desire to use the waste ground of our country for the planting of trees which would provide us with timber resources and give employment to some of our people. I asked the Minister for Lands a question about the supply of barbed wire, rails, and so forth which he has on hands now. If the world crisis has passed, the Minister for Finance can now direct the Minister for Lands to dispose of that material. He can make between £15 and £20 profit per ton on the barbed wire which I left him, and he can make from £1 13s. to £1 16s. on the rails I left there for fencing. Let the Minister sell out now and cash in on his stocks of these goods if the crisis has passed. If the Minister for Lands and the Minister for Finance can assure themselves that the shortage of supplies of these materials, which are so essential to the forestry industry, has now eased off, then he can do what he likes with the supplies which he has on hands. If the Minister tries to reduce the planting programme by disposing of young plants—as he tried in 1941-42 to burn some 12,000,000 plants that were in the nurseries rather than plant them out—while I am not in a position to stop him from doing so, at least the people of Ireland will be told of the vandalism that is going on.

I want the members of the Labour Party and the members of the Fianna Fáil Party to note that the reduction of £71,000 in the Vote for Forestry comes under sub-head C (2), paragraphs 2 and 3: Labour. The reference is page 250 of the Book of Estimates, Vote 48, paragraphs 2 and 3 of sub-head C (2). There is a total reduction in labour there of £71,000—yet the Minister blandly informed Deputy MacBride last night, when he was speaking on the same subject, that there was to be no reduction in labour or in the planting programme this year. However, we shall have more to say on that matter when the Vote comes up for discussion by this House.

What has happened in the Land Commission Vote is tantamount to a reduction. Do not forget that though in sub-head I there has been an increase of approximately £20,000 or £25,000—a small sum—it is only now that the effects of my revocation of the close-down Order imposed on the Land Commission by the Fianna Fáil Government in 1941 are being felt and that the accumulated stocks of land, which is the raw material of the Land Commission, are coming to hand and must be developed. Of late, instead of disposing of that land to the particular type of person for whom it was acquired, the Land commission, apparently, have got instructions not to divide the land but to hold it as a money-making asset for the Government.

You insisted on that in spite of all the questions which we asked you here about it.

Deputy Killilea will have a chance of talking to the electorate—I hope even sooner than he expects—on that matter. I know the answer which he will get.

I know the answer we got from you when you were Minister for Lands.

Deputy Killilea must not interrupt.

Even despite a Minister's Order, in my opinion the Land Commission are acting illegally in not disposing of the land as soon as may be after it has been acquired because they are obliged by every Land Act which has been passed to dispose of land which was acquired for the purpose of relieving congestion as soon as may be after acquisition.

They want to repeal your 1950 Act.

They dare not repeal it. They have not the courage to bring in a Repeal Bill to this House but the next best thing they can do is to leave the 1950 Act in abeyance.

That is what they are doing in my area.

There is a call for increased production. There is only one way to increase production and that is to give the farmers every incentive to produce food for this country. I have in mind, in particular, that section of the population whom we describe as "farmers' sons". There is no doubt that there has been an increased flight from the land by farmers' sons since the change of Government last June. If the policy of the present Government drives the very best of our young manhood from the land into different occupations within the country or to emigrate I think the Minister for Finance and every Minister of the Government must have their tongue in their cheeks when they ask the farmers to produce more food. If we deprive the farming community and the land of Ireland of the very best help, namely, the farmers' sons, it is absolute hypocrisy to ask for increased production. There is only one way to bring about increased production and that is to give an incentive to the people engaged on the land to do so. One way would be to give them the best possible remuneration that can be afforded within the economic framework of the country for their work and their labour. I hear Deputies from both sides of the House talking like children who do not know the first thing about what happened. After all, what happened to the land, from which we must ask production, during the economic war years? It suffered a blow from which it has not yet recovered. As soon as the ill-effects of the economic war cleared up the world war broke out and the farmers were forced to draw on the reserves of fertility of their land during the war years in order to feed the population of this country. Undoubtedly, it was good to have that fertility to draw on. I attach no blame whatever to the then Government or to anybody else for the fact that during the war years the fertility of our land was alarmingly diminished because the land of this country would be of no use to us if it was not fit, in an emergency, to produce the food for our people which we could not then obtain from abroad. Nevertheless, there should certainly have been a stocktaking of the position when the war ended.

If such a stocktaking were made it would reveal that the fertility of the best land of the country had been depleted during the war years and that it is essential to make every effort to restore that fertility without delay if we want to put ourselves in a sound position again. The restoration of the fertility of the land of this country after the economic war and the world war is as important a matter as an army or a defence force or anything else. Although Deputy Cogan supported Deputy Dillon as Minister for Agriculture for three years, when it suits him he turns him down and decries his efforts to restore the fertility of our lands. It is absolutely essential to undertake the work of restoring the fertility of our lands because the value of the land of this country depends not just on the fact that it is land but on its capacity to produce crops and food. By allowing the price of fertilisers to rocket sky-high, the Government are not going the correct way about restoring the fertility of our lands. By allowing the young men who have hitherto worked on the land to go off the land is no way to increase production. By increasing the charge for land, by cutting down credit and by footling with this very important industry in this country is no way to encourage increased production. One would think from the way in which the Government is acting that it was out deliberately to stop production because the first thing they did—their seats were scarcely warm after the change of Government—was to try to raise scares. These scares had an immediate effect. A lot of young men thought they were real and decided that it was better to leave the sinking ship while the going was good. I, for one, failed to convince them that the whole thing existed only in the imagination of the Minister for Finance. The result was that they fled the country in fear and terror. If the Minister doubts my word I can give him the names of at least 17 young men from my constituency who left the country, two of whom at least had come back from work in England during the period of office of the inter-Party Government.

Having listened to the Deputy, I realise that they had a very good reason for leaving the country.

If the Minister for Finance wants to live up to the responsible position he holds, he might treat serious matters seriously and cease acting the damp squib. When the Minister for Finance gets up and makes such speeches, people down the country do not know that he is gibing sneering, and smiling, and that there is no sincerity in the whole thing. The unfortunate aspect of the matter is that such statements, coming from a man who occupies the important position that he fills, can do untold damage. If we want to increase production, we must stop such foolish announcements, try to put the land into some shape, facilitate farmers who need capital for stock and machinery, and deal with what is in one sense our greatest blessing and in some cases our greatest curse, namely, the heavy rainfall which causes flooding.

The Minister for Finance should know that between 3,000,000 and 4,000,000 acres of very good land are producing next to nothing because they are either waterlogged and subject to periodic flooding or to permanent flooding. The slashing of expenditure under the Local Authorities (Works) Act at one fell blow by 50 per cent. has certainly done more to stop increased production than any other factor. I do not expect that the Minister can fully appreciate the disastrous effect of flooding. As a matter of fact, nobody can, except a person who has been reared on the land, and who has suffered some heartburning from flooded lands. If there is any farmer in the Minister's Party—and it is significant that there is not a single farmer worthy of the name in the Party—he knows of these problems, and the Minister might be well advised to have a talk with him and find out the magnitude of the trouble, and the importance of draining off the water from the land.

If we are sincere in talking about increased production, one of our first steps should be to tap these 3,000,000 or 4,000,000 acres of land which the land reclamation scheme, the Local Authorities (Works) Act and the Arterial Drainage Acts were specially designed to bring into first-class production. I have not the slightest hesitation in saying that included in that area of land—probably half of it —you have some of the richest alluvial land in Europe. If the Minister wants a source of increased production, which I realise is absolutely necessary if our balance of payments is to be kept in a state of equilibrium—I do not ask for a favourable balance—one of the ways to secure that is to go back on these Estimates, restore the cuts that have been made in connection with the Local Authorities (Works) Act and the arterial drainage schemes and give every assistance and help in the reclamation of land. The bringing into production of 2,000,000 acres of land is something which could be a lasting monument to the Administration of our time, no matter what Government took part in it or pushed it ahead. The fact that this land is scattered in small areas all over the country should not be a retarding factor; it will add up in the course of time.

If we are serious in calling for increased production that is one of the ways to secure it. The other way is to give farmers, who are in need of them, loans at a low rate of interest. If we can allow the British to have £160,000,000 accumulated as the result of sales of our surplus products over there during the war, at ½ per cent., surely you should be equally generous with our own farmers? Why should we give Marshall Aid, or should I call it MacEntee aid, to England? It seems a strange thing, an incomprehensible thing, that the very Party that blames us for repatriating some of that money can afford to leave the balance over there at ½ per cent. but the very moment money is required by fresh blood amongst our farmers for the development of this country, not alone is the borrower charged a rate of 4½ per cent. interest but the rate is actually increased by ½ per cent. I think the Minister for Finance should think over these things. I give expression to them, not in any sense of bitterness but in a genuine attempt to point out to him what is necessary to obtain the increased production which is so very essential at the present time.

I shall not go into the cost of living because the question has become so serious that it has passed beyond the talking stage. The Government, however, cannot disclaim responsibility for the fact that the price of practically every item for sale in shops in the country, and that has to be purchased by the average housewife, has increased beyond all bounds. In most cases prices have doubled and I could quote some instances where they have been more than doubled. All these things are helping to drive people from this country. We are only a young nation, trying to get on our feet and I think there should be fewer attempts to score political points and more of a proper approach to the problem of developing the country. My principal object in rising to speak was to point out where things are going wrong and to say that if the Government are sincere on the question of increased production, the smirks and sneers on the faces of Ministers when talking about these subjects would scarcely lead one to believe that they are sincere. If they are sincere in their approach they will give every possible assistance to our farmers, hold out every inducement to our young men to remain on the land and tackle our drainage problem so as to restore fertility to the 3,000,000 or 4,000,000 acres of land, which are either permanently or periodically flooded. I know that there are at least 2,000,000 acres of alluvial land equal to any in Europe which could be brought into production, included in that area. We are calling for increased production but at the same time we are reducing to impotence the very schemes, the aim of which was to bring about that increased production.

I want to see the balance of payments at least equalised. This must be done if we are to keep our heads above water and make reasonable progress. If we are to do that, I am suggesting to the Minister, for what they are worth, some of the principal ways of tackling the problem. It cannot be done by saying at the beginning of a speech that the country has gone into bankruptcy, that it is heading downhill, that everything the inter-Party Government did was wrong and that everything Fianna Fáil did was right, and then conclude by asking the people for increased production. Do not scare away the people by these alarmist pronouncements. You will not get any results from that. Some of the people in the country are absolutely puzzled as to what the Government mean while others are highly amused at the hypocrisy that is going on.

May I congratulate the last speaker on being very well able to put it over and as a very fine character for representing facts as he finds them to-day? The Deputy and the members of the Opposition can rest assured that the Government and we on this side of the House are doing our very best to increase production and to put the country back again on the map as a self-supporting nation. The policy of the previous Government during its period in office, supported by all the Parties opposite, was, as far as possible, to import foodstuffs which could have been produced in the country. In view of that, I would ask the Deputies opposite to examine their consciences and see where that policy brought the country. All those opposite are jointly responsible for having the country in the position in which it is to-day. We may talk and try to do a lot of political scoring, but we have to be practical, and see how other peoples have succeeded in making their countries self-supporting. They have done so by developing their agriculture and their industries and by trying to get export markets for their products. It is very hard to understand people here, such as my friends, Deputy Davin and Deputy Dunne, who as members of the Labour Party, always hold up their hands as being great believers in creating work for our people.

I am wondering why you were not appointed to a Cabinet post.

He carries the bag an odd time.

Those gentlemen hold themselves up as being archangels to the workers, but they would sooner import foodstuffs, which we could produce here, and so give employment to foreign labour. Now let us examine the policy adopted by the inter-Party Government supported by all those opposite.

Including Deputy Cowan.

Including Deputy Davin, the man who has a cure for all ills.

I will not apologise for supporting the inter-Party Government.

They come along to-day and talk about production. Please God, we will now have the opportunity of trying to put the country back where we left it.

Hear, hear!

We will try to establish confidence in the people and make them feel that the country is worth doing something for, not by importing everything possible as the people opposite did. The question of national policy was dealt with at great length by Deputy Cogan, and I must say he dealt with it very ably.

Hear, hear!

He dealt with Deputy Dillon's policy as far as agriculture is concerned.

With Deputy Dillon, not his policy.

During his long speech Deputy Cogan made a lot of comparisons which were true. The policy of Deputy Dillon, while Minister for Agriculture, was to import maize and other things. He started off on a grassland policy. I must say that this grassland policy was supported by the general secretary of the Rural Workers' Federation.

From Kilsallaghan.

Now, bear in mind that this is the gentleman who is anxious to create employment for the workers of this country, and he is supporting a policy of that kind. I imagine that if I were general secretary of an organisation as I am——

God help the organisation.

——I would try to get employment for our people as far as it was possible to do so. If I were general secretary of the Rural Workers' Federation I would be anxious to create more employment for them, and I would not support anybody who was responsible for a grassland policy and for the shifting of thousands of those people off the land day after day.

How do you explain Kilsallaghan?

Deputy Blowick, a few moments ago, said that people were leaving the country. I know it is true, but that is a result of the shortsighted policy of the inter-Party Government. Deputy Dunne cannot deny that during three years he supported that policy which turned thousands of our people out of gainful employment.

And 15,000 bog workers.

In the first year that we left office, the farmers said to themselves that they would try to grow a little that year, the next year it was less and the third year the area was lower still. Deputy Dunne, the Fine Gael Party and the other Parties opposite supported that policy. We are trying now, as a voice in the wilder-ness, to get the people to realise the harm that was done by the people opposite. Deputy Dunne is finding it very hard to take that this morning, because I am telling the truth.

I would not have missed it for the world.

They talk about production and what should be done here, but during all those years they were as dumb as mice. I do not think that is a saying.

Mute as mice.

May I ask if this filibustering business has anything to do with the Vote on Account or the policy enshrined in it?

Tell us what you did for Kilsallaghan? You left the House when questions were put about it.

Deputy Burke should be allowed to make his statement. Deputy Dunne can make his statement later.

It is not a statement.

I am dealing with the general decay in the agricultural industry and its reaction on the country as a whole. In doing so, I have for the sake of the argument to cite a number of examples, and to point out how those people, by their policy, succeeded in bringing that decay on the country.

Are you aware that you have driven the Minister for Finance out of the House? He could not stick it any longer.

Deputy Davin is upset this morning.

I am sorry if anything I am saying is responsible for disturbing the honourable Deputy because I would be sorry to interfere with him.

Thanks very much.

I am telling the truth, that the policy the Deputy supported, the grassland policy, put a lot of people in his own constituency out of employment.

I will tell you about that if you want to know it.

That was the policy and the shocking thing is that it destroyed the whole economy of the nation. Every branch of our agriculture out-put decreased over the past three years. Deputy Blowick tried to make the case that his Government improved the agricultural industry when, in fact, we know that it was they that killed it. I see the ex-Minister for Agriculture coming into the House. During the three years of the inter-Party Government I pointed out to him on various occasions where there was a prospect of providing employment for our people, but he was more interested, supported by Deputy Dunne, in giving employment to the Dutch workers rather than to our own people. That was the attitude he adopted towards one of our national industries, tomato growing, that we, in Fianna Fáil, had created and were hoping would develop. Deputy Dunne, Deputy Dillon, as Minister for Agriculture, and other members of the inter-Party Government were so concerned in case any person in Holland might be idle that they preferred to provide employment for the Dutch workers rather than for their own people. Every industry that we established in order to make the country self-supporting was described as a Fianna Fáil racket. That is the kind of viciousness with which we were treated.

Go on. Finish the tomato story. What happened then?

The Deputy tried to kill it but it lived in spite of him and it is still there.

What happened it?

Deputy Burke on the Vote on Account.

That is what we are waiting to hear. We have not heard much yet.

Deputy Dillon tried to kill the tomato industry. He did everything he could to misrepresent the position. I shall have another opportunity of answering Deputy Dillon in detail and pointing out to him where in relation to wheat, beet and everything else that he hated because they were industries established by Fianna Fáil he did his utmost to destroy them. These industries were essential in order to make the country self-supporting and if Fianna Fáil had not adopted the policy they did our people would have been on a lower ration of bread and other commodities during the emergency years.

We are trying now to encourage our people to appreciate that God has been good to them. They have the land on which to produce the food and they should produce it in their own interests and in the interests of the nation. I do not want anything to disturb the goodwill that exists.

I would appeal to the Minister to give more credit facilities to our farmers if the resources of the nation can afford it.

Why did you put the interest rate up by ½ per cent.?

You put it up in your time.

Deputy Burke must be allowed to continue without interruption.

We have good farmers all over the country but they are handicapped because of lack of credit facilities wherewith to buy machinery. There are certain facilities in existence but some additional aid would be welcome in order to encourage production.

A good deal has been said about the Local Authorities (Works) Act. When the present Opposition were in Government they did not tell us that they reduced the road grants by a couple of million pounds.

You have not done much to put them back again.

And they promised to put them back.

But they have not done it.

Mr. Butler would not let them.

Because of the false Budget brought in just before the inter-Party Government went out of office, we have been left in the position——

We left you with £26,000,000 in the kitty which you have wasted.

A number of other grants were cut down during those three years. I want the House to realise that we are strictly honest with the people. We will try to implement the policy best suited to the needs of the country. We will not indulge in play-acting, the introduction of resolutions and motions and going round the country on a whispering campaign. I hope the inter-Party Opposition now will examine their consciences and see the destruction and harm they have succeeded in doing to the nation during their three years in office. When they have done that I hope they will try to co-operate with the Government in implementing a policy suitable for our people in an effort to make our country as self-supporting from an agricultural and industrial point of view as it is humanly possible to make it.

In view of the uncertainty surrounding the Government's financial policy and in view of the misleading nature of the Minister's statement yesterday in general, and the Book of Estimates in particular, I think it is no harm to remind the House of the clear-cut financial policy adumbrated by the inter-Party Government in relation to the means by which the inter-Party Government proposed to finance the capital investment programme of last year.

Deputy McGilligan, in his Budget statement last May, at column 1905 of Volume 125 of the Official Report, said:—

"Of this sum"—that is to say of the sum of £22.3 million—"£21.7 million was obtained by borrowing, the balance being found by the reissue of loan repayments, by drawing down the Exchequer balance and by using the surplus on current account. The greater part of this £21.7 million was obtained through the issue of 3½ per cent. Exchequer Bonds last September and by drawing on new deposits in the Post Office Savings Bank, the balance of £7,500,000 being obtained from the American Loan Counterpart Fund."

That was the method by which Deputy McGilligan told the House the capital investment programme of the year before had been financed. In the coming year he had proposed to finance the capital investment programme as follows:—

"To meet this year's requirements it is estimated that a net sum of £28.7 million will have to be found. It will be necessary to seek again public subscriptions to a national loan. It is earnestly hoped that these subscriptions and savings through the Post Office Savings Bank and Savings Certificates will provide all, or at any rate, most, of our requirements. It may be necessary to have resource to the American Loan Counterpart Fund, but it is desirable that this should be moderate..."

Deputy Lemass followed Deputy McGilligan in the debate on the Budget and it was quite clear from Deputy Lemass's statement that he and his Party were against a policy of borrowing for capital development. He referred at column 1913 of the same volume to the "enormous expansion in the State debt" during the period of the inter-Party Government and said:—

"For how long do you think it is possible for this State to keep adding to its debt in that way when, as the Minister admitted, the investment is not expanding and is unlikely to expand the national production in a corresponding degree?"

In the next column he said:—

"Must there not be at some stage a dropping of the political cowardice which has characterised his policy from the beginning and some realistic facing of the country's problems?"

It was reasonable to assume, when the Fianna Fáil Government took office, shortly after this debate on the Budget took place that, as far as the Fianna Fáil Party had a policy, it was directed against borrowing for capital purposes.

Shortly after the change of Government a debate took place in this House on 18th July, 1951, and the policy of the Government came under review by the Minister for Finance. In the course of his remarks—Volume 126, No. 12, column 1873—the Minister referred to the problems which were clamouring for discussion and these were, first, the character and adequacy of the current year's Budget; secondly, the problem presented by an unwieldy programme of capital expenditure. Then he went on to refer to the balance of payments problem and the dissipation of our external assets. Second in priority the Minister put the unwieldy programme of capital expenditure and we on this side of the House assumed—and we were entitled to assume—that our programme of capital development would be pruned if not cut away altogether. Speeches were made during that debate and subsequently outside the House defending our capital Budget programme and pointing out the necessity for maintaining that programme.

The House is well aware of the events which occurred after that debate. It is well aware of the speeches that were made during the Summer Recess. It is not necessary to recall the crisis and panic speeches that were made leading up to the issue of the Central Bank Report and the policy of deflation adumbrated in that report.

During that stage of the Government's career the people were entitled to assume two things—first, that the capital investment programme was under review and was likely to be cut down and, secondly, that if it was not cut away altogether such of it as was left would be financed by taxation.

Then we came to the debate on the Supplies and Services Bill last autumn and it was with a sense of relief that we heard at any rate one Minister, and the most influential Minister, the Minister for Industry and Commerce, categorically denying that he was against cutting down on capital development and we hoped at any rate that he had brought his colleagues the full way with him in that policy.

I asked the Minister for Finance then a question in the Dáil as to what items of capital expenditure itemised in the Book of Estimates prepared by his predecessors he was going to cut down on and the answer was that the full items set out in the Book of Estimates were going to be expended this year.

It was at this stage then that we had reached a situation that the Government was prepared to carry out our policy of capital investment. There was one vital matter still remaining uncertain and that was the manner in which that capital Budget was to be financed. It will be recalled that Deputy Lemass, the present Tánaiste, had come out against borrowing for capital investment in his speech on the Budget. It will be recalled that the Fianna Fáil Party had expended large sums in placing advertisements on the public hoardings throughout this city in which they came out against the borrowing programme and told the people that the inter-Party Government was putting this country in pawn.

We asked the Government were they going to float a national loan as Deputy McGilligan had announced in his Budget statement. The reply I got when I put down that question in November was that the matter was under review. In December, the Government announced its intention to go to the public for a national loan. It has not gone to the public since that and it is well known why it has not gone to the country. Because of its failure to float a loan in August or September of last year, as its predecessors would have done if they had remained in office, because the market had slumped, it was highly uncertain as to whether the Government would be able to fill a loan if they went to the country after September. Because of the failure of the Government—a tragic and almost criminal failure—to go to the country last July, August or September for a national loan, the only way in which the Government could finance the capital investment programme was by drawing on the American Loan Counterpart Fund and dissipating it completely in one year. The Minister yesterday interjected in the course of the debate that he had spent the American Loan on commitments of his predecessors. There are two comments I would like to make on that. Firstly, the commitments of his predecessors were not to be met out of the American Loan Counterpart Fund: they were to be met by a national loan and by drawings on new savings in the Post Office Savings Bank; and the balance was to be met, as it had been met the year before, by drawings on the American Loan Counterpart Fund. The figures have been given in the Dáil already and it is worth repeating them:—£18.1 millions of the Counterpart Fund was used up between 19th January, 1949 and 13th June, 1951; £18.5 millions was used between 13th June, 1951 and 30th October, 1951; and the balance has since gone. The year before, in the whole year, the inter-Party Government had only drawn to the extent of £7.5 millions on the Counterpart Fund and that was because it had borrowed from the public, it had floated the greatest national loan that this country has had; and it was because of its intelligent policy of increasing savings. By that policy the Government was able to draw only for a minor proportion of its total investment programme on the Counterpart Fund.

Because of the criminal negligence of the Government last year, in failing to take the opportunity when the opportunity presented itself in July, August and September to raise a national loan, the only way they could finance the capital investment programme was by drawing on the Counterpart Fund and dissipating it completely, so that this year now the public will have to face all the rigours of taxation in order to help to meet the capital investment programme. That is the first comment I have to make on the Minister's statement yesterday that the Counterpart Fund was used to meet the commitments of his predecessor.

The second matter to which I wish to refer in that connection is this. The Government came into power within a matter of weeks after the presentation of the Budget. The Government then could have taken any decision it liked in regard to any matter of the capital investment programme or any item in the Book of Estimates. It could have pruned them or cut them as it liked and it was under no obligation to continue the investment programme as set out by its predecessors. We, I think, were correct in believing at the beginning of its period in office that the Government were uncertain as to what they were going to do with the capital investment programme. Deputy MacEntee referred to it as "an unwieldy programme of capital investment". It was within their power within a couple of weeks after coming into office to cut down any one of the commitments of the inter-Party Government. I am glad to see that in the course of time they recognised that every one of those commitments was valid and good and productive of wealth and of employment in the State, and in a period of time they realised that none of those commitments should be cut down. It was in their power, however, to cut them down if they did not believe in them. It was also in their power to finance them, as they should have been financed, by floating a national loan. Instead of that, they dissipated the American Loan Counterpart Fund completely last year.

The Minister in his speech last July also made a statement which is a valid statement of economic policy, but it is not necessarily a statement which we would agree would be applicable in the circumstances in which this country finds itself at the present day. In Volume 126, No.12, column 1876, the Minister said as follows:—

"No one with even a rudimentary acquaintance with economics should be complacent about Budget deficits in present circumstances. I think that all will concede that, in an inflationary situation such as exists in the world to-day, the least the State should do is to refrain from making things worse."

The Minister then was coming out against what he termed "Budget deficits". To use the phrase without prejudice, just for the moment, as the Minister used it, that is to say, to arrive at a Budget deficit by deducting revenue from the total amount of expenditure, both capital and current —by using that definition we found that the Budget deficit this year he estimates will be in the nature of £50,000,000.

I want to say, firstly, that I do not believe there will be a Budget deficit of £50,000,000. I believe that the Minister is deliberately inflating the figures so that he will be able to come to the country when he introduces his Budget and say: "It is not as bad now as we expected." When he comes to his Budget statement in April, I would be prepared to prophesy that there will not be a Budget deficit of £50,000,000. But supposing the Minister is correct, he is this year deliberately creating a budgetary deficit. He describes such a deficit as inflationary and says that—

"anybody with a rudimentary acquaintance with economics would know that the least the Government should do is not to help the inflation by creating a budgetary deficit".

With that knowledge at his disposal and with that doctrine in his mind, he is deliberately, therefore, creating a budgetary deficit this year to the staggering sum of £50,000,000. Either the Minister's economic doctrine is wrong or the Minister is deliberately setting out on a policy which is of a directly inflationary type.

There is another matter to which the Minister did not refer. It must be recognised that a plan or a scheme of large-scale domestic development of capital assets by a Government is a direct way of increasing the deficits in the balance of payments. The last Government with its eyes wide open proceeded to expand its programme for capital development, knowing that thereby the deficit in the balance of payments was going to be broadened. Yet the Minister here seems to be worried to the point of distraction at the deficit in the balance of payments, and he is going to increase that deficit by his own deliberate policy.

I wish to refer shortly to this question of a deficit in the balance of payments. If the Minister is sincere in wishing to get us into equilibrium at the present time and if he believes that large-scale capital development is inflationary and is going to increase the deficit in the balance of payments, he has no right to introduce a bill here for a deficit of £50,000,000. We have the extraordinary spectacle of the Minister appearing to fear a deficit in the balance of payments to the point at which he says we are on the verge of desperation and at the same time he is bringing in a bill here for the country to meet which is going to increase that deficit greatly. The Minister has it in his power to reduce the deficit in the balance of payments, to reduce the inflationary pressure— if he believes it is necessary to reduce those things—by reducing the capital investment programme; and he has not done so.

I am glad that he has not reduced the capital investment programme. It was one of the matters in which the previous Government took the greatest pride, and legitimately, I believe, took the greatest pride, this programme of national development. The inter-Party Government set out deliberately to increase the capital assets of this State and it did so with its eyes wide open. It recognised that the savings of the community, current savings, were inadequate to meet the capital development which the country required, and, in order to meet that development, it was necessary to draw on our past savings in the form of disinvestment from abroad. Anybody with an acquaintance with the figures will realise that our current savings are inadequate to finance the scheme of capital development which we had proposed or to finance the scheme of capital development proposed by the present Government.

The only means by which it can be financed is by drawing on past savings, by disinvestment of external assets. We were prepared to follow that programme and we followed that programme with our eyes wide open to the consequences. The Government incurred a deficit in the balance of payments in order to enable schemes of capital development to be carried on, and, if there were no deficits in the balance of payments in the past three years, capital development in this country would have been greatly reduced, and the housing programme, the hospitalisation programme, telephone and electricity development and land rehabilitation would have been largely cut. The previous Government thought these things were more important to the nation than the preservation of foreign assets which were depreciating yearly and which were liable to disappear almost completely in the course of time, if they were left where they were.

The Minister came out with an extraordinary statement yesterday in relation to the deficit in the balance of payments. As I heard him, and as he is reported in the Irish Press this morning, he announced that, in all, between 1947 and 1951, there was a fall in our external assets of £155,000,000. He has arrived at that figure by adding up the deficits in the balance of payments for each of these years and has assumed, in doing so, that the deficit in the balance of payments last year would be £66,000,000. In parenthesis, may I remark that again, while I fully appreciate the dangers of prophecy in these matters, I venture to prophesy that the deficit in the balance of payments last year will not be £66,000,000?

The Minister arrived at this figure of £155,000,000 by adding up the deficits in the balance of payments and went on to deduce from that that there was a fall in our external assets of £155,000,000. The Minister's advisers should show him the figures. There was no drop in our external assets of the same amount as the deficits in the balance of payments. There was capital inflow during the period 1947-50, amounting in all to £51,000,000 in these four years. There was an incurring of dollar indebtedness during that period amounting to £36.9 million, and during the years 1947 to 1950, while there was a gap in the balance of payments amounting to £90,000,000, external assets increased during that period. The reason was that the deficits were financed not by drawings on external assets, but, first, by the creation of dollar indebtedness and, secondly, because a large portion of it was financed by new capital coming into this country. The Minister should appreciate these figures and should not be trying to delude the people that our capital assets have declined by £155,000,000 in the past five years.

I am prepared to say that our assets will have been reduced last year. I think that, for the first time since the war, there will be a net reduction in our external assets last year. The reason is that there was a greater deficit in the balance of payments. There was less to draw on in the American Loan Account and, probably as a result of the Government's own policy, a lot of foreign capital has been frightened off coming into this country and we will not have the assistance of foreign capital to help us to meet the deficit in the balance of payments. In respect of last year, for the first time we are going to see a reduction in our external assets.

The Minister yesterday and, in fact, in every one of his speeches which I have been able to study, refrained from referring in any degree to the necessity for savings. We on this side have time and time again stressed the necessity of introducing a large-scale savings drive. That savings drive is vitally necessary in order to see that the draw on our external investments is not greater than it should be. Our capital investment programme in any one year can be financed out of current savings or past savings, and, as I have indicated, we have always realised that current savings are not sufficient to meet the investment we need, but the draw on external savings, that is to say, disinvestment abroad, can be reduced, if increased savings at home are brought about. We had a policy— it has been adumbrated numerous times—of endeavouring to bring about a nation-wide savings campaign in order to enable the people to realise that, if they save, schemes of national development can be undertaken with more equanimity than if savings are allowed to be reduced. If the Government is serious in wishing to bring about a reduction in the deficit, let them introduce this national savings scheme, but there was not one word yesterday in the Minister's statement, or in any of his statements that I have been able to find, in reference to the benefits which can accrue from a savings drive vis-à-vis the deficit in the balance of payments.

So far as we have been able to find out, the only policy the Government are proposing to adopt with regard to the deficit in the balance of payments is, first, the niggardly, petty one of reducing the foreign travel allowance to £25 and, secondly, the policy, if one could call it a policy, of import replacement which can only have the effect of increasing inflation at home and reducing our exports.

I do not believe that the Government is going to have the large budgetary deficit which the Minister announced yesterday. I think it was deliberately inflated in order to show to the people when he does come to introduce his increased taxation that in fact that taxation is not as bad as was to be expected in view of the appalling circumstances. First of all I want to join issue with the Minister on his reference to this deficit of £50,000,000. It is wrong finance to lump capital services, below the line issues, Supply Services and Central Fund Services together and to deduct from that the estimated revenue. The proper method to talk about a budgetary deficit is to take the Supply Services proper, that is to say, the current Supply Services, and the Central Fund Services and add them up. That is the Budget which it is the duty of any Government to balance. That is one of the reasons why we object to this Book of Estimates, which is a deliberate attempt to mislead the people by showing to them that the total cost of the Supply Services is £94.9 million without differentiating between capital and current services. Our policy was to balance the current Budget—and every Budget introduced by Deputy McGilligan was a balanced Budget—and for what was not current the proper policy was to borrow for it.

If that is the criterion—and I suggest that it is the proper criterion on which to judge the manner of facing the budgetary picture—if the Minister does not tax for capital items included in the Estimates for the Public Services which amount to £9.3 million, he will have roughly £85,000,000 to be met out of current revenue. In addition to that he will have the Central Fund Services which he said yesterday would amount to £13,000,000. The Minister's task, therefore, is to balance this sum of £85,000,000 plus £13,000,000.

If those figures are correct and if he does not bring about any reduction he has a duty to see that he has a balanced Budget in respect of those two items, but we will set out our hand and record our votes against any proposal to tax for items which we believe to be of a capital nature. They amount to £9.3 million for the Supply Services and the below the line issues which the Minister has said will come to £26,000,000—but it will be very interesting to find how he arrived at that figure.

The Minister will have a very great problem to find the money necessary for the capital Budget this year and I would suggest that the proper way to go about it is his predecessor's way: first of all to get the confidence of the people, to get the country into the frame of mind which the inter-Party Government had created, namely that we were developing the country in the interests of the country and if the Government can bring back the confidence which reigned during the three years of the inter-Party Government the Minister should not have great difficulty in raising a national loan. I said in this House as long ago as July that if the Minister raised a national loan he would have the support of all Parties and I think I can say it again. It is in the interests of the country to raise a successful national loan and if the Minister and his colleagues try to restore confidence in Irish economy there is no reason why they should not get a loan from the country this year. I regard as criminal neglect the failure to go to the country last year for a national loan. As a result of that neglect the Minister has no moneys from the American Loan Counterpart Fund to supplement what remains from the capital Budget.

In addition to financing its capital investment programme by means of public borrowing the last Government partly financed it by increases in savings in the Post Office and by issues of Post Office certificates. Let the Minister undertake what we have advocated, a nation-wide savings campaign, and a part of his budgetary problem will be solved.

The suggestion was made in the Seanad that foreign lenders should be enticed to our national loans and I think the Government should see that a large loan is floated which would, if the contributions of the people of this country were inadequate, be filled by lenders from abroad.

The Government also has the legal tender note fund of the Central Bank from which to obtain money for the coming year. At present, so far as I am aware, the Central Bank holds no Irish securities in its legal tender note fund and there is no reason why say 20 per cent. of its backings of legal tender note should not be held in Irish Government securities. At present the notes are backed exclusively by British Government securities. The Central Bank has power, by virtue of the Currency (Amendment) Act, 1930, which was subsequently included in the Central Bank Act, to hold some of its backing of the Irish legal tender notes in Irish Government securities but up to the present it has never exercised that power. There is a source from which the Government can obtain support for its capital investment programme for the coming year.

Lastly we come to the taxation for it. The last Government was enabled to carry out its capital investment programme without resorting to the tax-payer. We believed that it was proper financial policy, ordinary business economy, to create assets of a durable nature by borrowing and that it was wrong to tax people for one year for assets which would last a period of 50 to 100 years. That policy of borrowing was severely criticised, but in present circumstances I would ask the Government to alter its feeling about our borrowing programme and to endeavour by the means I have suggested to raise the money for the capital investment programme this year from borrowing, not from taxation.

The Minister has followed to a remarkably close degree the steps of his colleague across the water, the British Chancellor of the Exchequer. He has followed him in the reduction of the travelling allowances; he seems to have followed him in his general economic policy although it has been pointed out, time and time again, that policies required in England are of a fundamentally different character to policies required in this country. Do not let the Minister follow him in his cut in the food subsidies. I am sure that the food subsidies are a very tempting bait for the Minister for Finance at the present time. If the Minister followed or would follow a proper financial policy, there would be no need for a cut in the food subsidies this year. I am sure, however, that the people will have to meet a large bill for taxation. They will be faced with a cut in food and fuel subsidies. I feel we are entitled to claim that a large degree of the increase in taxation which will be forthcoming is due to the ineptitude of the Government's financial policy last year and to the uncertainty which has existed in the economics of the Government since it has come into power. It is not those who pay surtax or the companies making large profits who will have to pay increased taxation. The ordinary people will have to pay by way of indirect taxes. The hardships which the people will have to endure will be largely unnecessary and will be as a result of the inefficiency and the ineptitude of this Government's administration during the past nine months.

If the Opposition cannot help the Minister for Finance and the Government to overcome the problems which face the country, they ought not to go out of their way to be mischievous. It would be rather amusing, in other circumstances, to listen to some of those two-gun roaring republicans who, a few years ago, were referring to the dreadful fate which would be ours if we left the British Commonwealth of nations. Deputy Dillon said a few years ago that we would be overrun within five years if we had the temerity to set up an independent republic in this country. This is the gentleman who has the temerity to taunt the Minister for Finance in this House. What were Deputy Dillon and the remainder of his colleagues doing in 1948 making trade agreements with Great Britain? They were telling us of the high prices our farmers would get. According to Deputy Costello, the farmers would get a good remunerative price for all their products. How were these exports to be paid for? They were to be paid for in sterling assets. The land rehabilitation project and the whole policy behind the administration of the Marshall Aid moneys in this country was based on the development of food exports to Great Britain—our best customer whom we were to drown in eggs.

And with whom we had a consistently adverse trade balance.

Our whole economy was being forced into the position that the task of our farmers was to produce food, presumably cheap food for Britain. That food was to be paid for in sterling and, to the extent that we were not able to import in recoupment from Britain, the remainder was invested and forms our sterling assets and sterling balances. The former Minister for Finance taunted the Fianna Fáil Government on several occasions with the depreciation in the value of money. When he got into office himself he had other explanations and other theories. When he was sitting on the Opposition Benches his cry was that Fianna Fáil, as a result of their policy, were depreciating the value of money. According to him we were not taking steps to correct inflation, to restrict inflationary tendencies and so on.

What happened afterwards? In 1949 when the British decided to devalue the £ Deputy McGilligan and his colleagues described as financial cranks those who were not going to be tied by any conservative or mid-Victorian ideas of economy. They were away in front of the whole world in their ideas on financial matters. They had an excellent opportunity of showing us what could be done. I feel it was a very good thing for the country that they were in office at the time. These were the gentlemen who went around the country and talked about breaking the link with sterling and all the rest. How did they behave when the crisis was forced upon them? There was a debate in Seanad Éireann on the 26th October, 1949 and this was a deliberate debate. A motion was put down dealing with monetary policy. What did the former Minister for Finance say with reference to this question. I am quoting from Volume 37, column 130:—

"Consideration might also be given to the question whether we could have established a completely new currency. Senators will bear in mind that there are many other considerations besides that of legislation— financial, social and other ties which have driven us—let us say, forced, induced or invited us to follow the road which the British followed. These reasons are based mainly on the fact that we have such intimate trade relations with Britain that if we do not follow their devaluation, we would have been threatened with a disadvantageous situation in competing with our competitors in our principal market."

The Minister went on further to say:—

"I am not at all sure that the whole balance of consideration would not have driven us to accept devaluation and accept it as fully as the British did."

These are the people who have the temerity to taunt the Minister for Finance. He has the primary responsibility for the maintenance of the value of our currency, for the preservation of the value of the people's savings and for the credit position of this country in the eyes of other countries, its ability to pay its way, make ends meet, and live within its income. We should have the temerity to go across to London at the invitation of the British Chancellor to hear from that gentleman the position with which he was faced! We are being told here by Deputy Costello and others that our problems are not the same as Britain's. Has anybody pretended that they are the same? Our circumstances are different. What is there is the fact, as Deputy McGilligan, as Minister, stated: "That we have such intimate trade relations with Britain." The question arises whether we are to take cognisance of that situation; whether, when the sterling area with which we are associated and the British economy upon which our trade is mainly based, are faced with a situation of crisis, whether the responsible Minister and the Government as a whole are not going to take cognisance of that situation. Are they just going to close their eyes? Are they going to wait until some other crisis comes upon them? The devaluation crisis, we were told at the time it arrived, came quite unexpectedly. The then Government said they got very little notice of it.

At column 138 of the same debate, referring to a point raised by Senator O'Brien, the then Minister for Finance said he could not add to what the Senator said would have happened had we decided not to devalue in mid-September when Britain did. I quote: "He adverted to the matter of the banks and he asked me a question about what we should have done"— that is to say, if there had been infiltration into this part of the country by people seeking to take advantage of the exchange rate from Northern Ireland and Great Britain. The Minister said: "I am at a loss to give him an answer."

We were told at that time that, on balance, the Government decided, as far as I recollect the public statement of the Minister for Finance, to follow the British line because it seemed to be the only alternative that could be followed. The alternative of not following it did not recommend itself to them in the general national interest. Whether we like it or not, as the Minister for Finance pointed out yesterday, on the present pattern of our trade and having regard to our intimate trade relations with Britain our interests as part of the sterling area are influenced and can be seriously affected by happenings within that area.

I think it is not an exaggeration to suggest that if a number of countries come together feeling that they have a community of interests as, for example, in the sterling area, and to take measures in common for their mutual advantage and benefit, it ought to be to the advantage of the individual countries concerned in so far as it is possible for them to do it, to co-operate. Any co-operation that we are making or any steps we have taken in that regard are based entirely on our own interests. It is our own interests that prompt us to take cognisance of what is happening with regard to the sterling area and what is going on in the other countries in that area. These happenings affect the sterling pool and the British Chancellor of the Exchequer is the main custodian of that pool.

A communique was issued following the conversations stating that there had been an exchange of views. The Taoiseach gave the country all the information that it was possible to give regarding that matter. There was an exchange of views. There was no agreement. It is quite usual for Governments who have political or trade affiliations or connections to exchange views, to give information, to give even an indication of the steps which they may consider it necessary to take, feeling that the other party may be taken at a disadvantage if they are not accorded the information at the time, that it may cause them loss, for example, or may cause disturbance.

We know that it has been the practice for the British Government, when the interests of other parties, as for example, those of this country, were affected, to give such information as they considered reasonable and proper to give. Therefore, it is not true to say if the implication is there, that we can determine our policy entirely separate and in an isolated way from what is happening elsewhere.

The defence that has been made over a period of years by successive Governments and Ministers in regard to the cost of living that is pressing upon the people, is that there are certain things that we cannot control: we cannot control the prices of commodities in the world market. Washington may determine what the price will be but we have very little to do with it and to the extent that we have to buy essential materials we have to go out into that world market and purchase them. In purchasing them we have to depend to a large extent on the reserves, the sterling balances, that we hold to finance those purchases. There is a machinery there, an organisation, a cushion, a reserve—call it what you will—that enables us readily, and has enabled us in the past to conduct those multifarious transactions with countries within or without the sterling area. But in the straightening out and in the closing of our accounts with the non-sterling area, the sterling balances that are there and the sterling pool to which all the members of the sterling area are parties, plays an important part, of course.

Can we control the price of money? Will the Minister answer that?

What Deputy Davin forgets is that money has been falling in value—the French franc, which in our time was worth about 10d. or 1/- is worth about ¼d.; the Italian lira is worse; the value of the English £ is nothing like what it was pre-1914. People are deluded into the belief that because there is more money in circulation they get more for it.

You are dodging the issue.

We know they are getting less.

You are dodging the issue. Can we control the price of money?

I am not dodging the issue. I will answer that question— although I am not going to admit that the Deputy has a right to hold me up—in the words of the former Minister for Finance. In the same debate which I quoted a few moments ago, at column 142, he said:—

"That leads to another consideration. Comment was made here—I think I have answered it—that the Irish £ in the counting-houses in New York was valued higher than the £ sterling."

He gave a reason for that which was not the generally accepted reason.

"When people say that our economy is more soundly based and, therefore, will offer a more secure investment than money in England, we have to consider the reality of the situation here."

I hope Deputy Davin will bear with me while I am reading this extract. It is chapter and verse in this bible of capital investment that we hear so much about and which is not often used as a text. I propose to put it forward as a text now.

"From one angle, he said, it is very good to enthuse about capital development here at home and at times hearts (like Deputy Davin's!) might beat a little bit faster when they hear of these sums of money increasing from £700,000 up to £7,500,000 over a period of the financial year. But sending that money into circulation through the hands of the community, into which money must get when expended, has, of course, a very definite inflationary effect."

On the brain.

"Unless it were to lead to an immediate production of goods—and very little of this money as expended in this way is to lead to an immediate production of goods—there is bound to be inflation. So at once, while I am pursuing this desirable course of making a tremendous increase in capital development, do not forget the other side, that I may be weakening the value of the Irish £ and, with the high rate at which Government expenditure, our capital account and current account, and with our situation in respect of balance of payments, I am not too sure."

He was not too sure immediately after the devaluation in 1949 and we are told that the present crisis is more serious, more widespread.

Does the Minister remember that in 1949 it was said there would be no devaluation?

"We are not too strong, possibly, to present ourselves to the outside world and claim that our £ is better than the £ English. People here are accustomed to look across the Channel and see all the defects in the situation in England and complain of all the money that they are circulating, causing inflation and weakening the purchasing value internally of their own currency; but we are following very much the same programme at home.

"Senator O'Brien has said that he agrees that one may take the risk and, even though in the short run what you do may have an inflationary effect, it may be necessary to take the risk in order to get certain desirable objectives achieved."

Hear, hear!

"We have weighed that risk and have taken the risk but it is not a very happy side of our situation and it may be"

—this is the answer to Deputy Davin—

The Minister's answer.

"that the investing public has surveyed the position and come to its own conclusions, and maybe that was why subscriptions did not roll in for the last loan in such volume as they might have."

Is the Minister following the same policy?

The private investor is going to decide, in the long run, until this country becomes a totalitarian State, whether he is going to invest or not. He is going to decide whether it is worth his while to invest his money or whether the rate is sufficient.

Would the Minister give us the reference?

Column 142, Seanad Debates, 26th October, 1949. The last Government followed Britain in regard to devaluation. We might have taunted these new-found republicans with having followed meekly the English line but I presume their defence would have been, as I have mentioned, that the alternative before them, which they followed, was the one which involved the least loss and perhaps more gain to the community and the Irish people.

The Minister's Central Bank Act of 1945 is the answer.

The Deputies could have repealed the Central Bank Act. They were entirely free to take such action as they considered necessary. Nobody can contend that there was anybody driving them to take that action.

Would the Minister support them?

Any more than France, Belgium, Norway and Spain were driven.

Any more than France at the present, as Deputy Dillon says, has to take certain action, any more than Argentina has to take certain action or any more than any other country has to take action. Why should it be suggested that the action which the Government may take is done because of some dictation? There is not the slightest truth in that. Anything that we do we do it because we believe it to be in the best national interests. We will face whatever popularity or unpopularity, odium or otherwise, which may come to us on that score. We have done it before and we are prepared to do it again.

The Minister put up the price of loans to farmers.

The point about these crises, devaluation, the Korean War, rearmament, fresh crises with sterling, is that they come unexpectedly and they come pretty rapidly. If the Government had not tried to awaken the country in the past seven or eight months to some awareness of the situation what would the position have been? Is it contended that we are not in a better position in this country than Australia——

——with the enormous surplus that Australia had as a result of the peak prices for wool? Within a few months the whole position changed in Australia. From being a country that was booming they found themselves entirely on the wrong side, to the tune of hundreds of millions of pounds. We know that before the war countries which did not take heed in time and watch where they were going, or show caution and discretion when difficulties seemed to be looming ahead found that their sterling balances as in the case of New Zealand on a celebrated occasion were entirely dissipated. They had to go with their hats in their hands to the English banks—how would Deputy Davin like that?—or to the banks of some other country to ask them to provide facilities or credits by hook or by crook, to enable them to buy essential materials without which the whole economy of the country might be paralysed.

Perhaps Deputy Davin would apply himself to finding where these finances are going to come from when the sterling balances are exhausted as they could be exhausted if we continue to use them up at the rate at which we have been doing. What is going to happen then? Are we just dealing with this important matter from a hand-to-mouth point of view or are we looking ahead to know what the position will be in two or three years' time? We have no proof, as the Minister for Finance indicated yesterday, that the position is going to improve outside this country. For all we know, it may disimprove. There may be some other crises, whether they be war crises or depression crises. When the present armament work comes to an end we do not know what we will be faced with. We ought, at any rate, to consider carefully what our position is.

Hear, hear!

And take steps accordingly.

Hear, hear!

And not be taken at a disadvantage. One of the things we ought to do is to allocate our credit and our resources of credit in the best way possible. I have no fault to find, generally speaking, with the maxims that were laid down in the past but, in my belief, they were not carried into effect with regard to capital investment.

What is the Deputy looking for in that book?

I am looking for the reference of the former Minister for Finance which is here in this speech to the desideratum that capital investment, in so far as it is based on the repatriation of the sterling assets, ought to aim at providing the interest necessary to pay off the external debt. It ought, in other words, to be invested productively. I think that it would be a fair statement of the position that these moneys, when repatriated, ought to be invested in such a way that the income derived from them would cover the capital charges and, in addition, add to the general wealth and productivity of the country. We are not in a position to know to what extent the moneys that have been repatriated have been utilised to build up our productivity but we know, as the Minister for Finance pointed out, that some £90,000,000 was repatriated in two years.

The point is that it is possible that one cannot ascertain with accuracy or even give an accurate estimate of what proportion of that £90,000,000 found its way into productive industry or productive agricultural effort. The Deputies' speeches and lectures on capital investment would be more instructive and more convincing if they could show us, as a result of these heavy expenditures, in what direction they are able to point to an increase in production. Why is it that at present, for example, with regard to our basic necessities such as wheat, butter and sugar, we are depending, apparently to a greater extent than formerly, on the foreigner in spite of the difficulties of providing finances to pay for these imports?

Because you are selling fondant and sweet fat to Britain.

Why are we spending such large sums in dollars to provide feeding-stuffs? Why are we not able to produce them from our own soil? Why, after so many years, can our agricultural economy be described as "static."

By whom?

By economists and by independent persons.

They are as daft as coots to make such a statement to-day.

Has the Deputy read Dr. Geary's article in Studies of last December? I wonder if he has. I think “stagnant” is the word that has often been used.

The man that used it to-day is as daft as a coot.

The point is that the British, in spite of all they have gone through—in spite of the years of war and the years of austerity and the years of queueing for food, and so forth—have, as far as I understand, been paying up to the present for their imports through exports to the extent of about two-thirds whereas we are paying only to the extent of about two-fifths, or about 40 per cent. It is a situation which we ought to look into.

It is nearly time. We are anxious to know what you are going to do about it.

One of the things we can do about it is to get greater output from the individual. One would imagine that the criterion here was the amount of money spent. I say, by all means let us have capital investment. Let us spend millions more on capital investment if we are able to raise the money, but let us try and spend it in a way that will be of real advantage and benefit to the country and let us see, when we are spending it, that we will get value for it exactly the same as if it was the money out of our own pockets that we were spending.

A Daniel come to judgment. The rapidity of these conversions is terrifying.

There is no conversion. The Deputy does not remember that we were condemned by the Commission of Inquiry into Banking, Currency and Credit for piling up dead-weight debt in the pre-war years when we financed housing and other activities. We were accused, by some of these people who have changed their minds again now on the question of capital investment, of piling up dead-weight debt and of using up the capital reserves of the country at too great a rate. That was the position. The Party in opposition had quite a different story then. They were quite prepared, even in 1947, to support the views of the Central Bank when the Central Bank found fault with us for not paying more attention to the matters of the balance of payments, the realisation of our external assets, and so forth.

You are supporting devaluation with a vengeance.

Deputy Davin ought to read Sir Stafford Cripps' excellent Budget statements for many years past. If he is not satisfied with them he can go to Philip Snowden.

Is Mr. R.A. Butler not enough for us without piling more British Chancellors of Exchequer on the House?

Deputy Costello tells us that we are suffering only from cost inflation. How does it arise? It arises because our output has not increased. Our costs have increased at a far greater rate than our output. We have been hearing for the past 20 years from the economists in Sweden and elsewhere that there is no point in increasing wages unless productivity is increased at the same time. Let us try to improve our methods of production and try to reduce our costs. Let us try to ensure that there will be greater output and greater effort for the money that is spent. If I may so suggest to Deputy Davin, the Labour Party and those who support them can make as big a contribution, and probably a bigger one, to the solution of the country's difficulties as any other section of the community except the agricultural community by putting their shoulders to the wheel and by determining that the proper way to solve the country's difficulties and to get greater output is to get more work done and more food produced. In that way, we shall help ourselves and those with whom we are dealing.

I move to report progress.

Progress reported; the Committee to sit again.
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