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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Friday, 21 Mar 1952

Vol. 130 No. 2

Committee on Finance. - Vote on Account—Motion by the Minister for Finance (Resumed).

This debate on the Vote on Account has lasted rather a long time but I think that that is due in pretty substantial measure to the fact that the debate has been given an unreal and exaggerated complexion by the Minister for Finance in his opening speech. When he was speaking on this Vote we had from him one of his typical bogey-man utterances, a habit which, even with the passing years, the Minister shows no disposition to shed. One would think listening to the Minister introducing this Vote that he was in the position of the British Chancellor, groaning under burdens and driven to despair by the plight of his empire reeling towards bankruptcy, because the Minister seemed to take on his shoulders the woes of the world. He sought to give the House the impression that this country was racing towards bankruptcy at a rate unparalleled in any country in the world to-day.

Somebody in the course of this debate likened the Minister for Finance to the British Chancellor. That is a most unreal appraisal of the British Chancellor and indeed of the Minister for Finance, too, because, in so far as the British Chancellor has produced a Budget and has surveyed the economic position of Great Britain, he at least was able to import into that survey realism and imagination regarding Britain's financial problems, whereas here there was no such realistic and imaginative approach. The Minister for Finance just gave us a long groan, just a wail of the character we have been listening to from that same Minister for the past eight months. The Minister, of course, put on one of his countless hysteria acts when introducing this motion for no other purpose than to frighten the old darlings of both sexes in his constituency to whom the Minister wistfully coos at election times. Nobody in this country believes that there is any justification for these plaintive wails by the Minister for Finance. Again, everybody knows that this is not a normal Minister for Finance. He is an actor, a natural born actor, seeking to simulate knowledge of the duties of a Minister for Finance. We have seen these actor-like performances by the Minister before. Let me pay this tribute to him: Deputy Cogan described him as a senile delinquent— that may be Deputy Cogan's view of him and he may have good grounds for believing that—but I think that, whether it is the role of tragedian or of the ordinary slap-stick artiste——

These reflections on the Minister for Finance are unparliamentary and the Deputy should get back to the Vote on Account.

I am talking of the Vote on Account.

Mr. Brennan

You are dealing with the Minister.

I have been speaking for only ten minutes.

Mr. Brennan

You have been dealing with the Minister since you started.

He is the nigger in the woodpile in this whole matter.

Mr. Brennan

It is not the Vote.

We are not getting a real statement of the nation's financial position at all, just an hysterical performance by the Minister for Finance. We had another example of the Minister's performances recently in one of the biggest hotels in the City of Dublin. The Minister went into that hotel with a number of well-to-do people and there, at a well-furnished dinner table, delivered himself of the utterance that the country was now in such a state that it was on the verge of desperation—that from a Minister for Finance who on an occasion such as this should be a model of prudence, a model of rectitude, in surveying the conditions of the country. Statements like the Minister's are responsible for filling the emigrant ships and putting another 12,000 names on the unemployment registers of this country as compared with this time 12 months ago-I do not believe that there is any justification for these hysterical speeches by the Minister. I think that they are just froth and fraud. There are no circumstances which justify these intemperate and reckless speeches of the Minister for Finance who is making them, in my view, so as to pretend to justify raising new financial blisters on the backs of the people at the forthcoming Budget. If we get in the forthcoming Budget, as I suspect we will, a reduction in the food subsidies making the people pay more for their daily food, we will be told in extenuation: "Did you not hear the Minister for Finance telling the country of its desperate plight and the necessity for drastic measures including a reduction in the food subsidies which have been enjoyed by the people for some years past."

In any case, who is this man who comes to lecture us on sterling assets, the balance of payments, the majesty of sterling and our indissoluble link with it? I quoted on one occasion before and propose to quote again a speech made by the present Minister for Finance on sterling. Deputy MacEntee was not a Minister then but here were his views on sterling at that time—and when you hear these views you have to ask yourself is this person really competent to evaluate the financial position of the country to-day—

"Even before Fianna Fáil went into the Dáil its members had directed public attention to the dangers to which our people were exposed by reason, not only of our attachment to sterling, but of the short-sighted policy of the Anglo-Irish bankers in investing their depositors' funds in British securities. The Free State Government under President Cosgrave has been on the side of Britain; the Anglo-Irish bankers have been on the side of Britain; the Currency Commission has been on the side of Britain."

If that means anything, surely it means a full-blooded denunciation of our attachment to sterling, of the investment of our funds in British securities and the very person who told the nation this was the basis of its ruin is the very person who says exactly the opposite to-day. Are we expected to believe what he says to-day in the face of these quite contrary statements made by the Minister in other years?

What is the date of that statement?

He was not a senile delinquent then.

Would the Deputy give the reference, please?

This speech was reported in the Fianna Fáil bible, the Irish Press, on the 29th September, 1931, one year before Deputy MacEntee became the Minister for Finance, in 1932.

That is when they were going to give us the Utopia.

He was not alone then in believing these things. He had as a colleague a person who subsequently became Minister for Industry and Commerce. Deputy Lemass in those times was fond of attributing our woes to the same evil influence of Britain's financial policy. He delivered himself in the following terms:—

"It was a very long time since the Irish people had experienced circumstances so bad as those now existing and this was due to our financial subjection to England. When the Free State Government decided to tie up this currency with British currency and to permit Irish banks to maintain their English entanglements, it destroyed with one blow the greatest benefit secured by the Treaty. When the Irish people struggled for independence it was not merely to enjoy the spectacle of green pillar boxes and uniforms and payment of taxes to an Irish-speaking Minister for Finance, but also that the forces which had produced depopulation and poverty in the past could be checked and harnessed for the public good. Poverty persisted and depopulation continued because in financial matters the same conditions prevail now as before the Treaty."

These statements were made in the salad days of these boys. They were then offering themselves to the Irish people as new economic Messiahs, as people who saw the light and who were determined to follow it and who felt that the only danger to the nation was the possibility of being drowned in the deluge of milk and honey which they would release in those days.

I have seen that bubble burst many years ago but the strange part of the whole thing is that the political and economic quacks who offered us such advice then give us exactly opposite advice to-day and they wonder why people doubt their ability to survey our case and to lead the nation away from the difficulties which confront it.

I do not believe a word they say. They have said so many things and contradicted them and reversed their views so often that their evaluation of our national position to-day is no guide to me and it is no guide to the nation.

They move in different circles now.

It is not in circles that they move; it is in squares they move.

Major de Valera

I wonder could the Deputy get down to simple arithmetic?

That is not your forte either, Deputy.

We have now got the benefit of the mathematic wizard who, no doubt, will keep us right in these matters.

Major de Valera

We would like to hear you on the figures.

The Deputy was on this recently in Rathmines.

The Minister's speech on this Vote on Account was just a deliberate attempt to write down the achievements of his predecessor and of the Government which preceded him. His speech was made for purely Party purposes. It was designed to give the impression that the last Government had left the country in a bad way financially when, in fact, everybody knows that during the three and a half years of inter-Party Government it brought more peace and stability and a better standard of living to the people than had been experienced at any time in human memory.

What is the record of the inter-Party Government which the Minister tries to belittle? One would imagine from listening to the irresponsible and intemperate speeches of the Minister that the last Government were a Government of invaders and that they had made war on the Irish people. Let us get the facts. As I said, we gave the country peace, stability and a better standard of living than the country ever had before. One of the first acts of the inter-Party Government was to repeal the Fianna Fáil penal taxes which imposed a considerable hardship on the ordinary plain people. That was done at a cost to the last Government of £6,000,000 per annum. We geared up the housing programme to such an extent that, although we found the programme and the housing machine generally creaking and groaning, we nevertheless were able to adapt it in such a manner that during our three and a half years of office we built 24,000 houses and the machine was geared up to such a pitch that, provided this Government does not interfere with it, we can see the solution of the housing problem over very large areas of the country within the next two or three years.

We put 37,000 additional people into employment during those three and a half years and while we were in office unemployment reached an all time low record. Since we left office the unemployment figures have gone up by leaps and bounds. There are 12,000 more people registered as unemployed to-day compared with 12 months ago, notwithstanding the fact that we have taken 3,000 into the Army and notwithstanding the fact that emigration has increased by 65 per cent. in the five months of 1951 as compared with the corresponding five months of 1950.

We spent an additional £2,500,000 on old age pensions, on blind pensions and on increased widows' and orphans' pensions. In 1947 our health expenditure was £615,000. In 1951 £4,500,000 was provided for health services.

Our national income in 1947 was £318,000,000. In 1950 it had jumped to £363,000,000. Our exports in 1947 were £39,000,000. In 1950 they had jumped to £73,000,000.

Not only did we do these positive things, all indicating a movement towards expansion and a movement towards prosperity, but, in addition, we killed the wage-freezing mentality of the previous Government. As late as the 15th and 16th October, 1947, we had these utterances in the House. From the Taoiseach, we had this:—

"The Government regards this temporary limitation of wage increases as vitally necessary in present circumstances and if the trade unions cannot undertake such an agreement as I have outlined, then, the Government will produce proposals for legislation to the same effect."

Another threat of a wage-freeze policy, this time imposed by specific legislation. We had this utterance from the Minister for Industry and Commerce on 16th October, 1947:—

"I want, however, to make it clear that the Government regards it as an essential safeguard, in the interests of the general community at the present time, that some check upon the upward movement of wages should operate."

Having kept wages down from 1941 to 1946, they were proceeding in 1947 to threaten the workers with a new wage-freezing order by legislation. We killed that in 1948, with the result that in a very large measure, since then and mainly from 1948 to 1951, the workers were able to get, through their trade unions, compensation for the substantial rise in the cost of living which took place between 1941 and 1946. They were denied the opportunity of getting that adequate compensation by the wage-freezing policy of the previous Fianna Fáil Government. On top of all these things, we gave the country something which was more priceless in itself—internal peace. We got rid of the political prisoner; we got rid of the firing squads; and we got the gun out of Irish politics for the first time for many a long day.

Do we have to apologise for a programme and achievements of that kind? To whom have we to apologise? I certainly owe an apology to nobody and will give an apology to nobody for the excellent work of the inter-Party Government in three and a half trying years. The work of that Government stands there available for everybody to see, and anybody who sees it with eyes unblinded by political prejudice can have no hesitation in recognising that these three and a half years were probably the most fruitful three and a half years since 1922.

We had a speech from the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs who told us that we had imported, and were importing, more than we exported. That is true, and we are doing it probably at a greater rate since this Government came in than before, because at present we are importing substantially more than we are exporting. We knew we were doing that, but we felt it was inevitable in the circumstances of the time. We gave the people money to enable them to buy commodities. We gave them the money which enabled them to get the things they wanted. Is it a crime that the ordinary people should buy the things they wanted, or are the Irish people to be condemned for ever, under Fianna Fáil hairshirt economics, to a low and impoverished standard of living? Are they to be Lazarus for all time? Are they to be expected to live on a standard of life below that enjoyed by other civilised countries in Europe and throughout the world? Are we now to be told that the new brand of nationalism is not to buy, but to go without? In my view, those are the economics of a demented recluse, and no better.

I read in an American paper recently of some wretchedly-clad man who was taken into a hospital because he had collapsed in the street. There he was stripped of the filthy rags in which he was clad and they looked at his soreridden body to decide on what treatment he needed. They looked through his articles of clothing and among the wretched garments they found £3,000 in various currencies. He had certainly not dissipated his assets. His sterling assets were intact, but the poor wretch was full of sores, clothed in rags and living a most miserable existence. Is that life? Is that the pattern of life we want here—to tell our people to keep their money in their pockets, to live the lives of demented recluses, to save their sterling assets at all times and pass through life in these miserable tattered rags, enjoying none of the sweet things which are the rights of civilised communities everywhere?

Is it suggested that our workers have been buying too much, eating too much, consuming too much? If they are not doing it—and nobody has had the guts yet to say it is they who are doing it—who is buying the too much and who is consuming the too much? It certainly is not the ordinary worker because the high prices of commodities permit him to buy the barest essentials. Is it the small farmer on the western or southern seaboard who is consuming too much? Is it he who is causing the disequilibrium in the balance of payments? Go into his kitchen; look into his wardrobe and see whether it is he, or a hierarchy of new rich in the City of Dublin who are doing the spending.

We are now being treated to lectures by the Minister for Finance and other Government apologists because our people are spending too much, but nobody will have the courage to tell us who is spending the too much. Will any of the Fianna Fáil Deputies go back to their constituents and tell them that they are spending too much, that they are eating too much and buying too much, and that they must cut down their expenditure? Is that the best policy that can be offered to the masses of our people to-day? Our people bought goods simply because they wanted these goods, and, if our people had been paid in goods during the war for the commodities which they sent to Britain during that war, these goods would have been bought in the war time period, but they could not be bought then. Britain would not give us the goods then and they had to be bought after the war, when they were available. I see nothing wrong in our people to-day using the stored-up credits created by that export during the war to buy, after the war, the commodities they were unable to buy because of the pattern of economic life in Britain during the war.

Our exports to Britain during the war were substantially greater than her exports to this country. What happened? Britain gave us in return only a proportion of the goods which we sent to her. For the rest she chalked up credits to our account in the Bank of England in London.

These credits were increased artificially during the war because, instead of giving us goods in return, Britain, not having the goods to export in the volume we needed them, gave us only a tithe of the goods we needed and chalked up credits for the value of the remainder. We have been using those credits since the war to buy the goods which we could not get during the war.

I want to know what is economically wrong with utilising the credits which we were compelled to take during the war to buy after the war the things we could not get while the war was being waged. Nobody on the Government Benches has attempted to answer that question. Even the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs said the other day that what we had been spending, at all events, was only the extra credits created during war time. But we still have got—and this has to be remembered—the value of our pre-war foreign investments. These are still there. Whatever solidity the nation had while being buttressed by these foreign credits up to 1938 and 1939, that stability and solidity is still there, because at least the equivalent to these foreign reserves is still being held in London—held in London in a situation in which they are being constantly depreciated as a result of the over-all policy of the British Government.

Bear in mind the quotations from the present Minister for Industry and Commerce and the present Minister for Finance in 1931, that the curse of this country was in leaving our money in Britain; was in putting our depositors' money into Britain; and one would expect that these two Ministers to-day would be chanting alleluias at the sight of our foreign investments dwindling because of the ruinous policy of investing them in Britain which was the root, according to them, of all our evil.

We have had comparisons by the Minister for Finance with the position of this country and that of Britain. I know of no more absurd comparison than that. Britain has come through the most devastating war in all her history. In order to wage that war— which she did with a tenacity that has drawn admiration from all over the world—she liquidated every penny she had in foreign investments and as a result of starting the war, waging the war and holding on through the war, and fighting even the peace—which was much more difficult, perhaps, even than the war — she has now reached the position in which she has no foreign investments whatever and she does not export sufficient goods to pay for the commodities, particularly foodstuffs, which she must necessarily import. All her foreign investments have gone up in flames or down in battleships. That is the position of Britain to-day.

That is not the position of this country. He is a simpleton who attempts to make a real comparison between the financial position of Britain to-day and the position of this country. Britain to-day is simply drenched with debts—debts to her own citizens, debts in the foreign markets, debts which she can never repay, in the view of some of her more eminent statesmen. Is that our position? Does anyone suggest that that is our position? We know ours is a unique position, a position in which we should take pride and which calls for congratulation, that we have the lowest national debt in Europe and we probably have the lowest national debt of any white race in the world. In so far as our external assets are concerned, outside the United States we have invested per capita more money than any other country in the world to-day; so that the nation which, according to the Minister for Finance, is heading towards bankruptcy and has now reached the “verge of desperation”, is the nation, his own nation, which has the lowest national debt in the world and apart from the United States the greatest per capita investment in foreign reserves.

Bearing these two facts in mind, is it not clearly taking leave of one's senses to attempt to suggest that our position to-day is that of a bankrupt country or that we are in the same parallel as Britain from the point of view of our economic and our fiscal difficulties? The strange part of the whole business, however, is that while we have the lowest national debt in the world and while outside the United States we are the greatest creditor nation in the world, we also enjoy the unique distinction—perhaps because of the two circumstances I have mentioned—of being the only white nation in the world which is losing its white population to-day. Someone may well ask the question whether the explanation of the losses of our white population is not connected with the excessive prudence which we have displayed under the other two heads.

We have had talk in this debate about a crisis. We have always had a crisis. There has never been a day in the history of the Irish race that there has not been a crisis. Has there not been a banking crisis? Amongst a large mass of the people there has been a recurrent crisis of unemployment, a crisis of emigration, of low wages, a crisis of living in slums, of enduring want and poverty in the land which, if properly organised, is capable of giving to our people a decent standard of living. Some of these problems to-day are not as acute as they were. Some of them have been put at arms' length but there are some which could easily return speedily unless we recognise our obligations to plan in an intelligent way to counteract the possibility of their return.

In this debate we had an admission from the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs as to what the Governments needed to do, that we should keep our heads and that there should be a calm survey of the whole situation. I congratulate him on his conversion to that point of view since he spoke hysterically on the report of the Central Bank here a few months ago. He now realises that hysteria pays no dividends, that these wailing speeches which he has been delivering in his constituency had only one effect, to make those who had money cautious about spending it, to make those who intended to undertake development cagey about embarking on such plans. At the same time, while these hysterical speeches were being made, the employment exchanges were bulging with human cargo and emigrants were leaving the country at a greater rate than ever before. The Minister for Posts and Telegraphs realises that these speeches do not pay dividends, that the "verge of desperation" speeches in the Gresham Hotel by the Minister for Finance are not the remedies which the nation needs, that instead the nation needs to "keep its head" and that there should be "a calm survey of the problem before us".

We have had problems and probably always will have problems. The government of this country has been in our hands for the past 30 years and intelligent people may well wonder whether we have utilised the powers given to us in such a manner as to plan our national development on proper lines. I do not deny for a moment that a good deal of good work has been done by all Governments over the past 30 years; but, having said that, one has only to stand and take stock of the nation's position to-day in order to realise that a vast amount of work yet remains to be done if we are ever to put this country in the forefront of the most progressive nations in Europe. This disequilibrium in the balance of payments may well come as a blessing in disguise if it enables us to approach our problems realistically, free from hysteria, free from showman tactics and concerned only with the problem of how best we can utilise our national resources to give purpose and direction to the national endeavour to give our people a decent standard of living.

If we look at the economic position in the nation to-day, we can see that the national wealth is hardly yet tapped. We have too few industries after 30 years of self-government and even the industries which we have are concentrated in a relatively small number of centres. There are vast areas of the country that have no industries whatever and in that respect we are probably unique among the countries of Europe. The standard of production here is far too low, dangerously low. Our marriage rate is one of the lowest in Europe. No matter what may be done in one, two or three years in respect to agriculture, the basic fact remains—and it is a challenge to our agricultural competence—that agriculture, as regards the volume of production, has not made the progress that it should. To-day the volume of production is approximately the same as it was 50 years ago. While other countries have been able to step up to a remarkable degree their volume of agricultural production, the basic fact remains, as far as we are concerned, that the volume of our agricultural production has remained almost static over a period of 50 years. We still need better social services; we still need better medical services. The cultural life of the nation is as stagnant as ever it has been. Migration to-day is taking an appalling toll of the manhood and womanhood of this country. Migration is a haemorrhage within the nation itself. We are pouring out for export to other countries the best of our manhood and womanhood because we cannot provide them with decent employment in their own land.

So far as the Labour Party is concerned it believes, not in a policy of restriction, not in a policy of curtailment, not in the policy of austerity which is apparently championed by the Minister for Finance. No good can come to a people by telling them to consume less or to buy less. That policy will only create unemployment and distress. You cannot bring prosperity to the nation by counselling our people to consume as little as possible and to hoard as much as possible. That is the advice which has continuously been tendered to the nation of late by some of those ill-equipped to advise.

If we are to deal with the problems confronting us, if we are to find a solution for these problems which will maintain and, if possible, raise our existing standards of living, we can do so by a concentration on the two avenues of development which are open to us. One is the agricultural avenue, the other the industrial avenue. In both these spheres there is scope for an enormous expansion, expansion which would give us wealth, which would give us the goods which we at present import, which would give employment not only to adult men and women but as well to growing boys and girls who see nothing before them but a choice of emigration to the great American Continent or emigration to Britain, to take advantage of the artificially created conditions which provide regular employment in that country at present. I believe that if we can concentrate the resources of the nation, the powers which this Parliament has, the powers which the Government have and the reservoir of goodwill which exists in this country to-day, on industrial and agricultural expansion, we can in the course of time build up both an agricultural and industrial economy here, which would curb many of the tendencies which are manifest at present and which would give the country reasonable insulation against the risks which, circumstanced as the nation is to-day, are ever-recurring risks, and must continue to be ever-recurring risks, in the relatively undeveloped state of our industries and the stagnant position of agriculture.

Deputy Dillon will be "leppin' " mad when he reads this speech.

I wonder. I do not know why he should be "leppin' " mad because I think even Deputy Dillon has a fund of goodwill for anything that will make the country prosperous. If he has not, he probably could be wooed in that direction. I do not see how anybody in the country can imagine that you can make the country prosperous by making the people poorer.

I did not say that.

That is the effect of it. So long as we allow agriculture to remain stagnant——

I thought Deputy Dillon altered all that. Deputy Dillon told everybody he altered that.

He made a good start.

He made more grass.

Even the production of grass is not an injury to the Irish people. If you had to feed your cattle on clinkers, you would not get much out of them. You cannot feed cattle on stone chips. I do not know whether the Deputy knows anything about it, but he will find if he tries to feed cattle——

Deputy Dillon gave us nothing but grass.

Deputy Norton.

I want to focus attention on the need for developing, almost to the temporary neglect of other problems, our industrial and agricultural possibilities because it is through them, and only through them, that you can create wealth and employment. Many of the other services which we maintain have to be provided as the embroidery of civilised life but, in the long run, they have to be paid for out of what we produce. They can only be maintained out of what we produce. The more we produce, the more we can provide ourselves with services which are the attributes of a civilised community. In the industrial field, whilst we have made a certain measure of progress— substantial in respect of some industries, hesitant and halting in respect of others, and no progress at all in other spheres—there is still an enormous amount of potential industrial development before our eyes to-day.

We have been making a basic mistake in respect of our industrial policy. It was perhaps understandable in the circumstances of the past 15 or 20 years; it was perhaps easy to understand the desire to have industries established at all cost; it was easy to understand the mind of a person who wanted to see industries started here and, therefore, was anxious to aid them by the imposition of tariffs, by quotas and by quantitative restrictions, but unfortunately we failed adequately to supervise the implementation of that policy.

We imposed tariffs to help new industries. Many of these were substantial tariffs, many of them almost prevented the foreigner getting into the Irish market unless the Irish consumer paid a very substantially higher price for the imported commodity. But unfortunately many of those who were helped by tariffs were content to produce 30, 40, 50, or 60 per cent of the requirements of the home market and apparently could never be stimulated to supply the entire needs of the home market which is essential unless our people are going to pay the tariffs out of their own pocket. If you want to impose tariffs for the purpose of raising revenue then it is all right to have an industry here only producing 20 per cent of the goods required on the home market because the people will pay taxes on the other 80 per cent; but if the purpose of the imposition of a tariff is to enable industry to supply the entire requirements of the home market then, quite clearly, there should be close State supervision over that industry in order to ensure that it avails of the opportunities made possible by the State and the community to produce the entire quantity of goods required by that market.

We have not done that. We have failed hopelessly to do that. Some industries, where you had enlightened management, where you had proper technique and efficiency, machinery, organisation and methods, went out whole-hog to produce for the Irish market. But these were the exceptions. They were commendable and worthwhile exceptions to the general rule. Since we just have not a hard core of people who were exceptions from the standpoint of all-out industrial production, we must ensure that everybody who gets a tariff will get that tariff for the purpose of (1) starting industry, (2) of building up efficiency as speedily as possible, and (3) of providing the best possible goods that can be produced. Provide these at a reasonable price and ensure, at the same time, decent wages for those engaged in the industry, with the State standing back to act as protector of the community so that those who are aided by the State and the community by the imposition of tariffs will not utilise their position to engage in unreasonable profit-taking at the expense of the entire community.

In the past, we have been content, too often, to impose a tariff and then wait to see what would happen. Unfortunately, in many cases that resulted in a number of manufacturers supplying only a portion of the market. We ought to have been on their heels insisting that they cannot get a substantial tariff in perpetuity unless they are willing to supply the entire requirements of the home market. Now, in that way we can render ourselves immune from the necessity of importing any goods made by that particular industry if it supplies the entire requirements of the home market. We can create more wealth for the nation and more employment for our people, and make, at the same time, a substantial contribution towards adjusting the balance of payments to a more equitable level.

One has only got to look at the import figures in order to realise the enormous quantities of imports which are still coming into this country. That situation has continued unchecked over the past 30 years during which we have had the power in our own hands to create new industries to supply these commodities. Many of the defects, from the standpoint of not having these commodities produced at home, have been due to a pathetic reliance on what is called private enterprise to produce these commodities. We can see clearly now, having given the experiment a trial for 30 years, that private enterprise will not go into the manufacture of these commodities unless it is assured of dividends from the start. That is not possible except in rare instances. The State will have to find other and more efficacious methods of establishing industries to manufacture the goods which are imported unless, of course, we are perfectly satisfied to sit down here for another 30 years and see what the volume of these goods will be 30 years hence.

If we are serious about our industrial development, we should get rid of this cant of private enterprise. Private enterprise is not concerned with producing goods for the nation. Private enterprise is concerned with getting a return on its invested moneys. That is all it is concerned with. What the goods are, does not matter to private enterprise. You go to a bank manager to-morrow and ask for money to establish a greyhound race track or a casino which will pay 100 per cent. dividend in the first year, or you go to a bank manager with the alternative that you want money to establish a boot factory to make cheap boots for poor children which will probably pay 5 per cent. in the fourth year. The bank manager will not waste much time talking to you about the novelty of making cheap boots for poor children. You will get none of his money to do that, but he will talk speedily about advancing money to you for a casino which will pay a dividend of 100 per cent. in the first year. Private enterprise is not concerned with satisfying the national requirements. It is concerned with getting a return on its money, and that has been the whole evolution of financial capitalism over the last 100 years.

The people who invest their money in Guinness's are the employers of those who work in Guinness's factory to-day, but if it suits them they will decide to become the employers of the natives on a rubber plantation in Malaya, and in that case they will switch their money from Guinness's to Malaya. If it suits them to put their money into a tin mine they will put it into the tin mine and leave the rubber plantation in Malaya. There is no element of personal responsibility for employment or for the control of industry to-day. That period is gone, but we do not seem to recognise it. The modern company, or modern industry, is a group of people who have got money to invest, and all they are concerned with is to try to get the best possible return on it. They are content to invest it in Australia, Malaya, Singapore or Japan or in any fantastic bonds which are issued so long as someone will guarantee the payment of interest on it. They have not a sufficient sense of responsibility to start an industry at home yielding less in dividends but providing more by way of employment and wealth for the Irish people.

The biggest free trader in the world is the man who has money to invest because the whole world is his parish. He is concerned only with where he gets the best return. If we are to rely on that kind of person in the foolish belief that he will undergo some sort of transformation and abandon his old and natural habits, forgetting all about profits and dividends, and sink his money in an industry here at home which will not pay dividends for a few years, we will get nowhere. It is because we have been relying on that kind of person in the past that we have got nowhere and made no progress. Unless the State is prepared to come in and use its powers up to the limit to assist in the establishment of industries at home to manufacture the goods we are now importing in such quantity, we will be talking of industrial development here for the next generation.

Do you want industry nationalised? Is that the point the Deputy is making?

Truth to tell, I would like the Deputy to tell me what are the vices in nationalising the Shannon scheme?

I am not suggesting vices. I am merely asking a question.

I am a firm believer in the State establishing industries where there is evidence that private investors will not do so.

The Deputy is showing a pathetic reliance on private enterprise.

No. What Bill was the House discussing just before this— fisheries?

I am in favour of the State operating as a State undertaking every industry which has a monopoly at the moment. There is no case whatsoever for allowing any industry here to be a monopoly, if that monopoly remains in private hands and, worse still, if it remains in unscrupulous private hands.

Read the report of Cement, Limited, in the papers to-day.

Cement is a commodity that obviously ought to be nationalised. Cement should be made available to our people without their having to pay the ransom they are paying in the form of dividends to-day. Why should not flour milling be nationalised? Why should the milling of flour to produce bread for our people be a source of substantial remuneration to those who lend money to the flour milling industry? I would nationalise flour milling to-morrow if I had my way.

Mr. Brennan

Nationalisation does not bring down prices.

You go and ask some of the boys who know something about flour milling what they got out of it in the last ten years.

Major de Valera

Is it not one of the Deputy's points that there is a group——

Deputies will have an opportunity of speaking later. Deputy Norton is in possession now.

In a few minutes we shall be told that it was sheer love of the shamrock that brought Messrs. Rank into Ireland. We shall be told Mr. Rank came in here to lose his money. Did he? The Government should approach the problem of industrial development from the point of view of not tying itself to one particular philosophy as against another. Any and every agency ought to be utilised to give us more industries. If private enterprise will do it, well and good. If private enterprise will not do it, then the State ought to do it; it should be done by semi-State bodies and the State should use its powers in any and every direction to encourage by every means the establishment of new industries to provide goods and employment for our people and help to redress the balance of payments.

I shall leave the industrial field now and proceed to agriculture. I said earlier that our agricultural production has been stagnant over the last 50 years. That is an incontrovertible fact. There can be no question about it at all. Anybody who looks at the figures 50 years ago will see what the situation is to-day from the standpoint of production. It does not matter who brought that situation about. It does not matter how it was brought about. It is no consolation to blame this Minister, or that Minister, or to say that one Minister was a good Minister and better than so-and-so, while another was useless. That is no solution. I think that shows a most dangerous kind of infantilism.

The plain fact is that we have to-day an undeveloped agricultural economy. Our agriculture has been stagnant over the past 50 years. It is the same to-day as it was 50 years ago and it will probably be the same next year as compared with 50 years ago. I say that not knowing what Government will control the destinies of our nation next year. That is a challenge to our competence. That is a challenge to the way in which we use the powers this sovereign Parliament has. It is not our function to bother as to what happened under whose régime, as to who saved calves and who was in office when calves were dying rapidly, or who was in office when a particular disease hit such and such a place and who eradicated it somewhere else.

All that is merely begging the basic question that our agricultural position is to-day undeveloped. We must bestir ourselves. Obviously we must bestir ourselves to-day because all the indications are, judging by the surveys made of European countries by O.E.E.C., that there will be a good market for every scrap of agricultural produce for a long time to come and the tendency may well be that that situation will become aggravated from the point of view of a scarcity rather than from the point of view of any contraction in that potential market.

Our lives are cast here irrespective of what Party we belong to and we have to make the best we can of the country. If we make a mess of it we must all pay the penalty. Foreigners will not pay it because it is no concern of theirs how we live our lives here. There should be an intelligent approach by all Parties towards the formulation of a basic agricultural policy which, once fashioned, will be given some chance of running over a period of years so that a farmer will know not where he stands with next year's crop but what the agricultural policy will be down through the years.

The Minister for Posts and Telegraphs made a statement in respect of possible changes in our agricultural and industrial economy. He expressed the view—I think it is rather a bleak view but one obviously based on some assessment made by him and deserving at least of study and argument— that it would probably take a period of from 50 to 70 years to change our agricultural economy. I do not think it is necessary that we should wait for that length of time. If he was thinking of Utopia, well and good. I am quite satisfied that, given reasonable co-operation on an agricultural policy, we can effect a substantial transformation in a reasonable period of time. I am in favour of doing that. I am in favour of its being done irrespective of what Government does it. It is immaterial what Government does it: the results will be a better standard of living for our people and that is the only thing that matters in the long run.

Major de Valera

Getting down to something concrete, what would the Deputy propose? What is the Deputy proposing? Frankly, I do not understand the Deputy.

That is not very surprising.

I shall not make the obvious observation. The greatest difficulty is, of course, that agriculture is literally starved for capital. If one takes the trouble to look at the moneys invested in land in other countries of comparable size it will be found that this country is away down at the bottom of the list.

Our land is starved for money. I do not say that every farmer has no money. It is not unusual, however, to find this paradox, that a farmer will have money, possibly invested in British securities, in Players, in Singers, in Coats, in Imperial Tobacco, or in Malaya or somewhere else, but at the same time he will be short of money to invest in his land because he does not agree that investment in land is the same as investment in these industrial undertakings. He is willing to put his money into a foreign investment and run all the risks associated with that rather than invest it in his own land outside his own door or in stock and machinery that he can look at for the 24 hours of the day.

Major de Valera

How will you secure that? I want to get down to a practical proposition.

By putting up the rates of interest, as you have done.

That is the difficulty here.

Major de Valera

It is.

Everybody knows that to be a fact. Even Deputy de Valera assents. The farmer has to be taught that his land is the best investment available to him and that the safest place for his money is not in deteriorating British securities or investment in territory torn by war, but investment in his own land, which will yield for him the best possible return. That means that the farmer must put more money into the land. He can do it in many cases by his own volition, by a mere transfer of his investments and a recognition that his land is the best investment.

There are other cases, however, where the farmer has no money to invest in his land. That farmer has to be assisted. The method of assisting him to-day is through the banks. Everybody knows how difficult it is for a farmer to get money from the banks. If he does not like the banks, he has to go to the Agricultural Credit Corporation and there he pays 5 per cent. for any money lent to him. Having had experience of the Agricultural Credit Corporation, I have come to the conclusion that you have as good a chance of getting a loan from a man in the street whom you do not know as from the Agricultural Credit Corporation. The first thing they ask you is: "Do you owe any money for rates; do you owe any money for rent; how do you stand with the Board of Works; how are you fixed with the Land Commission about the last gale; have you any unpaid grocery bills?" If a person had not problems like that he would not go to the Agricultural Credit Corporation. What we need is some body which will lend money to an honest, hardworking farmer who may in fact have no tangible assets to lodge as security for a loan.

Major de Valera

Where is the money to come from ultimately?

Is the Deputy suggesting that we can only get loans provided somebody pays 5 per cent. on them?

Major de Valera

I am serious. Where is the money to come from ultimately? You cannot just go on printing bank notes. We would like to hear the Deputy on the financing of such things.

I am afraid that Deputy de Valera has shown a rather shallow approach to this whole problem of agriculture. I do not propose to waste any more time on him.

Major de Valera

We want to find out whether there is anything in it.

I see no reason why the State cannot raise in half a dozen forms——

Major de Valera

For instance?

——a sufficient sum of money to make available to some organisation which would lend it to credit-worthy farmers. If the State does not do that on lines much more liberal than the Agricultural Credit Corporation, then the country is simply facing this position, that so long as this Government are in office and Deputy de Valera has any responsibility for their guidance, the ordinary small farmer will never get a loan of £1 from anyone. If the small farmer has not got money, he can only procure it by borrowing. Clearly, he can only borrow from the State, and the State should and could raise the money and lend that money to the farmer. It can go further and lend that money to the farmer at a nominal rate of interest. The State can do anything it wishes. It can borrow money at a certain rate of interest and lend it to the farmer at a lower rate of interest and repay the difference out of State funds.

There is nothing, however, to prevent the State creating money for the purpose of lending it to the farmer and, when the farmer repays the money, the State creation of the money is cancelled. Does Deputy de Valera exclude that as one of the possibilities? Lest he should think that it is too radical, I would remind him that something very much more radical than that was done by our next-door neighbour, Britain, whom the Minister for Finance says is the proper custodian of our sterling. During the war, the British created all the money they wanted. Not only was there no gold backing for the money, but no silver backing for it and, in the final analysis, there was no metallic backing at all. A pyramid of credit was created by the British Government without any metallic backing at all and used, not for fertilising or doing anything with the land, but for building battleships, some of which were sunk on their first trip. Other countries have done the same thing. If they can do that, why cannot we create money for the purpose of lending it to an honest, trustworthy Irish farmer who will repay the money to the State and thus cancel the original creation?

Major de Valera

Does not that mean inflation?

Did you make any move in that direction during the three years you were in office?

The difficulty is that during that period we had not the benefit of the Deputy's advice.

I believe there is no insuperable difficulty in the State providing money to assist the small, honest and trustworthy farmer with the necessary capital with which to improve his land. If that money were utilised by the small farmer, as it can be utilised by him and, in the great majority of cases, would be utilised by him, to stock his land, to fertilise his land and to mechanise his methods of farming, not only would you have a revolution in the agricultural industry in a small time, but you would have a very much wealthier agricultural industry than you have to-day.

Is there anything more idiotic in this country than the spectacle of the Land Commission acquiring a large holding of land, parcelling it out in lots of 25 acres and putting people on it who have not got a bean? They are put on a 25-acre holding with a shovel and spade and they are told: "There you are. It is free. Get on with your shovel and spade on the 25 acres." That has been happening all over the country. Then they are told: "You cannot continue your job of agricultural worker. You are now a farmer. Do not forget your shovel and spade and work that land." The man does his best but there are no wages coming in and the wife has to buy groceries and the children have to be fed. This goes on for about six months. How does anyone expect that poor unfortunate to expend his energies on the exploitation of that land when he has no capital whatever and nothing to sustain him? He has no money to buy seeds to sow on the land. How is it expected that he can sustain himself and his family unless he can get capital to buy seeds and reap a crop off the land? That is the case with many holdings allocated by the Department of Lands. Then they wonder why he was not using the land to the best advantage and according to the best methods of husbandry. The poor devil does not know on Monday morning where he is going to get the following Friday's meals. The Land Commission carry on a farce of that kind.

If that person were given capital and some stock in the beginning, he could easily be taken out of the category of worker, and put him on a farm. He could then be given some stock, implements, seeds and a little capital and he could be warned to be careful and prudent with it. But he gets none of those things at all. He is simply brought into the holding and told to make the best of it. As a result of that the Land Commission have been compelled to take back many of these holdings. Even the houses that were built were not occupied because those who had the option of them preferred to remain in their old homes near their employment as workers rather than occupy these Land Commission holdings which brought them no dividends.

What I have suggested is that the farmer should get money to stock, fertilise and mechanise his farm. The sooner we have an agricultural industry based mainly on mechanised farming the sooner we will produce more and give a better standard of living to workers and farmers engaged in the industry. That is not enough. Having gone that far you do not reach the end of the road. The problem then is what is to be the future of farming; on what crops are we going to rely? Clearly we ought to produce here all the commodities which, if not grown here, must be imported. That includes wheat, barley, and so on, which would have to be imported if we did not grow them here in sufficient quantity. On that point the obvious thing to do is to enable firm prices to be fixed for a period so that the farmer will know, not what he will get for next year's crop or the year after but so that he will know over a period of years what the pattern of agricultural expansion is to be and so that he will not have to change rapidly from one crop to another. Instead he should be enabled to proceed steadily in accordance with a well-known pattern of agricultural production and with an assurance that it is not going to be subject to constant economic or political changes.

I do not think it is impossible to evolve a policy of that kind and I believe that these young farmers' clubs started in many parts of the country should make themselves vocal in propagating a policy along those lines. It is a policy calculated to bring not only prosperity to agriculture but to bring into agriculture a new feeling of imagination, an imaginative approach to all the problems, because they have lingered so long and have kept agriculture in the stagnant position in which it has been for 50 years.

To-day in our agricultural areas a situation has been developing which must give cause for concern to anybody interested in the well-being of the country. If one looks at the last census of population one sees a very decided move away from the countryside to the towns. There is an increase reported in practically all the towns in the country. At the same time, there is a reduction of the population in the rural areas. What is happening is that the towns and cities are being flooded with people from the rural areas. The rural areas are being stripped of the manhood and the womanhood every day and they can never hope to survive. That is not to be wondered at.

We hear people appealing to the agricultural worker to stay and work on the land. Who wants to stay on the land of Ireland for 68/- a week? An agricultural worker has 68/- a week to keep his wife and maybe four, five, or six children. He is a simple man who imagines that the agricultural worker's intelligence is so low that he will stay on the land for 68/- a week because he will not stay there. When our doctors and our engineers can go to England and to the Colonies to get employment, is it any wonder that the agricultural worker does likewise in order to obtain regular employment at better rates of pay than he can get at home?

The plain fact of the matter is that the agricultural worker will not stay on the land and nobody can blame him when he cannot expect to receive more than 68/- a week in the year 1952. Why should he remain? You must remember he has only one life, not a dozen lives. Is he going to spend it on the land with a wife and six children at 68/- a week? Of course he will not. He will continue to leave the land unless we have the intelligence to approach the problem of agricultural wages from the standpoint of recognising that the agricultural worker is a land technician and that his rates of wages should be raised so as to give him reasonable security on the land and regular employment. Without those conditions he will not remain on the land to-day.

It is pure nonsense to imagine that any appeal to the agricultural worker to-day to produce the nation's foodstuffs will have any adequate response unless it is accompanied by a recognition of the moral obligations which are owed to men with wives and children to maintain and who are seeking to maintain them on that low standard of living.

If we are to develop our agricultural and industrial possibilities, possibilities which have not yet been adequately measured along those lines, we would do much to bring about a complete transformation of our agricultural and industrial economy. It may well be that these two developments alone would not, for a considerable time, provide the necessary employment for our people. Therefore, I believe that the utilisation of our home savings and our foreign investments can be justified in order to finance large-scale schemes of capital development.

I realise that this Government does not like the Capital Budget. This is largely due to the fact that it was not the author of the idea itself. It has approached this problem with a jaundiced mind because it was not itself responsible for the introduction of that type of Budget. It is the Capital Budget which has enabled us to spread our capital expenditure over a period of years instead of putting the burden, or an unfair portion of the burden, on those living in this generation for works which, in fact, may not materialise in an economic form for a long time to come. It is legitimate that we should meet our current expenditure in the same current year just as a man may pay his grocery bill in a current week. However, there is no reason why a man should pay for a piano out of one week's wages when it is legitimate for him to pay for this article in instalments. It is as legitimate for him to buy by instalments as it is for the Government to build schools, hospitals and sanatoria by spreading the payments over a number of years. That is what the Capital Budget does. By its utilisation, we have within our power opportunities, not merely of expanding our industrial and agricultural potentialities, but, at the same time, of filling in gaps in our economic structure by stimulating such works as the provision of schools, hospitals, sanatoria, and by promoting drainage, electrification, afforestation and turf development. It is because all this is possible under a Capital Budget scheme and not as convenient under any other scheme that I am strongly in favour of its continuance— one Budget for domestic expenditure and the other for purpose of capital development. This Party's approach to the problem of our future development can be set out briefly.

We will support any bold policy for national expansion which will give us more industrial goods and which will expand our agriculture in every direction. We are not prepared to stand over any policy of restriction or any policy which seeks solution for the nation's difficulties by advising people to buy less, consume less. If we are honest in our approach to whatever problems concern us to-day, we ought to seek a solution along the lines of national development and not along the lines of national restriction. As I said earlier, we can find enormous scope for the application of remedies to our agricultural and industrial situation. If we do not set about the application of those remedies now with the world in the position in which it is to-day and in our present circumstances, our successors will be sitting here in 30 years hence, as we are sitting here to-day, discussing the very same problems simply because we did not face up to the responsibility which these problems cast upon us.

Deputy Norton's speech could fairly be described as comprehensive. He had a vague generality to express about every one of our national problems, except the one we are supposed to be discussing. We are discussing the Vote on Account, the outstanding feature of which is the amount which is required. The cost of Government services has mounted every year and is this year once again establishing an all-time record. That is the matter the House is supposed to be discussing, and it is a matter which requires a cool, calm, realistic examination by the members of this House. I do not know why we got this barrage of clichés and long words from Deputy Norton. Maybe it is to conceal the fact that he has nothing to say about the problem. That is the key problem which arises for debate here but very few Deputies have referred to it throughout the discussion.

Is not that the fault of the Minister for Finance who deliberately made the other issue an issue in this Vote instead of by way of separate motion?

No, it is not. I was not in the House when the Minister made his speech but I read it. I think it is true to say that, while he related this Budget problem to the general economic position of the country, he dealt in detail with it. I do not think that, during the debate, any Deputy has urged that the cost of Government should be reduced. In fact, very many have urged that it should be increased by advocating additions or expansions to particular services. However, during the course of the debate, an attempt has been made by the Deputies opposite to suggest that this very heavy increase in the cost of government could be met without additional taxes. Such statements are evidence of the atmosphere of unreality which has surrounded the national finance during the past two years. It would be understandable if these statements were made by new Deputies without knowledge or experience of public administration, but they were made by some Deputies who have sat in the Cabinet and who are familiar with the process of Budget making. It is incredible that these people believe such statements. The only rational explanation of the fact that these statements were made is that those who made them think there is some Party advantage to be gained by misleading the public mind in that regard, by adding to the difficulties of the Government and by making it harder for the Minister for Finance to secure acceptance in the House and in the country of the proposals he will have to submit in a fortnight's time for meeting this bill for Government services. Maybe there is some Party advantage to be gained, but I feel that the cynical elevation of Party advantage above the national interest is to be deplored.

This is all too funny.

I am glad I have caused Deputy Davin some amusement.

You are quite unconscious of your own humour.

The Tánaiste should be allowed to make his speech without interruption.

Now that the humorous side, which I cannot see, has relieved the tension which Deputies may have felt following Deputy Norton's eloquence, let me go on to say that in my view, national advantage requires that the public should know and understand that any expansion of Government services must be met by increased taxation. They must be made to realise that they cannot have improved social welfare services, extended health services or other expansions of State activity without paying for them. If there is some suggestion that I said anything else when I was a member of the Opposition, I would like somebody to refer me to the occasion. On the contrary, in and out of office, I have endeavoured to assist in securing public realisation of that elementary fact about the business of government. The cost of government has risen faster than the national income. That is the fact that is entitled to give us concern. One could contemplate a steady and continuing expansion in Government activities involving heavier charges upon the Exchequer if, at the same time, national productivity was so expanding that the national income would rise in an equal degree. Here, however, we are unable to record that and, therefore, the burden of Government services is going to press heavier upon the people than ever before.

Why is the cost of government rising? First of all, it is rising because, in the case of existing services, there have been substantial increases in salaries and wages paid to civil servants and because, due to them and other administrative costs, services, which cost less in the past, are costing more now even without any expansion of them. Secondly, the cost of government is rising because there is continuing expansion in the scope of the services provided either to meet a public demand for such expansion or an assumed need for it.

I want the House and the public to understand that the Government is very much concerned about the size of the bill that has to be presented to the taxpayers this year. We think the House ought to be concerned also. We think it is not good enough, in a discussion of this kind, to discuss in a vague, general way the weakness of the national economy or the desires of sections of our people. We have got to consider and make known what we think should be done in order to minimise the burden which the cost of government is going to mean on the country in this year and announce the plans that we believe to be practicable in order to lighten that burden in the future.

It is all very well for Deputies to accept this increase in the cost of government without comment. It is all very well for Deputies to urge additions to the cost and to ignore the economic consequences of the consequential taxation, but the Government cannot do it. Any increase in taxation must have economic consequences of some sort and it is a matter for decision whether the adverse economic consequences of the taxation will be offset by the advantages which will accrue from the expenditure.

We have had arguments in the past and I am sure we will have arguments again, when the Budget proposals are under consideration, as to what percentage of the national income can be taken for public purposes without adverse economic reactions. With the national income static or, at any rate, rising less rapidly than the cost of government, we are being forced to take a decision that it is better that individual members of the public should give up, through increased taxes, to the Government a higher proportion of their incomes for the Government to spend on the provision of these services rather than that they should be left to spend it themselves as they would chose.

The Government has decided, at any rate, that the burden has reached the danger point and that unless the national income can be expanded——

This bill is a dishonest bill. Why did not the Minister include the cost of social security?

Perhaps, the Deputy might leave that over until the full bill is known. The House is aware of the estimated cost of the supply services for the present year. The Government's full programme will be announced on Budget day.

Will it include the increased cost of social security?

The increased cost involved in any legislation which we may undertake. We have decided that the cost of government has risen to the point where it cannot be allowed to go further unless and until an expansion of the national income can be achieved. It is, therefore, necessary for us to examine carefully the whole list of services and to see what reductions can be effected in them.

I am not talking now about casual economies which are the object of routine searches by the Department of Finance. I am thinking of the need to make decisions to the effect that services we enjoy or would like to have must be postponed or reduced because just now we cannot afford to maintain them on the scale that we would wish. Secondly, we have also to decide that there can be little further increase in the cost of government until, as I have said, increased productivity has made it possible for the national economy to carry the increased cost without undue strain.

That is our approach to this bill and I want to relate it to the attempts which have been made here, for Party purposes, to suggest that we can keep on increasing the cost of government, adding new services, increasing expenditure under existing services and that no new taxation will be necessary. If anybody in this House or outside believes that to be true, it is necessary that they should be disillusioned as quickly as possible.

I know that when Deputy McGilligan produced his Budgets of last year and the previous year, when he instituted the term capital Budget, which Deputy Norton has quoted, for the purpose of misleading the public as to what he was doing, we had arguments as to what items of expenditure listed in the supply services could properly be described as capital investment. That question may arise again in the Budget debates. It does not arise here because, for the purposes of demonstrating the nature of the burden that the community will be called upon to bear this year, I am prepared to concede Deputy McGilligan's definition.

I am prepared to say that if we take from the supply services Estimates every single item of expenditure that he chose last year or the previous year to describe as capital investment, and deduct the amount from the total of the supply services, the position is still, as I have said, that a fairly substantial increase in taxation will be required.

I want to make it clear that I am doing that for the purpose of argument and not because I accept Deputy McGilligan's description of capital investment as honest. Taking, however, the full cost of the supply services, deducting from them every charge which, in the last year or the previous year, Deputy McGilligan, the previous Minister for Finance, chose to describe as capital investment and adding to that the swollen cost of Central Fund services, swollen because of the heavy borrowing undertaken by our predecessors, and deducting from them the probable yield of existing taxes, then a gap of from £15,000,000 to £16,000,000 is revealed. I do not know what the Revenue Commissioners will estimate to be the yield from existing taxes in the coming year. I am proceeding on the basis that these taxes will yield next year as much as they yielded in the present year. It is on that assumption that I have estimated that the deficit on that side of the Budget will be not less than £15,000,000 or £16,000,000. If the Government and the Minister for Finance choose to adopt a more orthodox definition of "capital investment" than that used by Deputy McGilligan, then obviously the deficit will be very much more. It is clear, therefore, that the Government and the Minister for Finance have a colossal task to face in closing that gap—and that is the gap, even on the basis of Coalition finance.

Various Deputies have spoken in this debate as if this Government was opposed to capital investment—as if these supply services, for which the Coalition Government borrowed and improperly so described are going to be dropped. There is no foundation for any of those suggestions. Undoubtedly, we contested the accuracy of Deputy McGilligan's description of some of those charges as an investment and we would still contest the accuracy of that description. The Estimate I have given of a deficit of around £14,000,000 or £15,000,000 is, I repeat, based on the assumption that Deputy McGilligan's definition is going to be maintained in the coming financial year and the Budget prepared accordingly. I have said that closing a gap of that size represents a colossal task, and one of extreme difficulty. Whatever method may be adopted— whether by reducing expenditure or by raising tax rates, or by a combination of both of these methods—it will not be easy to close it. What I want to emphasise, however, is that the easy solution of trying to bridge that gap by increasing borrowing is not available. The idea which Deputy Norton tried to convey—and which, apparently, other Deputies hold—that any financial problem in the present year can be met by borrowing is completely fallacious.

Over and above the supply services to which the Vote on Account relates, certain bona fide investment projects are contemplated. I use the term bona fide in relation to investment projects which will directly and immediately expand the national income or give a cash return to the Exchequer. The size of that bona fide investment programme is such that it will be a matter of considerable difficulty to raise the money to finance it. If we complicate that task by adding to this investment programme expenditures which can be described as an investment only by stretching that term beyond its obvious meaning, then we shall make the task much harder and jeopardise the bona fide investment projects upon which the Government wishes to embark.

In the course of his speech on this Vote on Account, the Minister for Finance indicated that the total gap between the amount which the Government expects to spend in the present year and the amount which it can see in sight to meet that expenditure is about £50,000,000. If I am correct in assuming that the deficit upon the current side of the Budget will be in the neighbourhood of £15,000,000 or £16,000,000, then the amount to be borrowed for the purpose of the investment projects will be somewhere between £30,000,000 and £35,000,000.

Is that £15,000,000 or £16,000,000 based on the assumption that for next year the receipts will be the same as they are for this year?

That figure cannot be correct, then.

You have a total expenditure in the Estimates of £94,000,000. Deducting the £9,000,000 which the Minister concedes for the purpose of his argument, that leaves £85,000,000. The Central Fund Bill will not be £15,000,000 or £16,000,000 after allowing for national conversion.

The exact figures will be given by the Minister for Finance in his Budget statement.

I do not mind, so long as the Minister is aware that we do not accept the figures he is giving us.

I am not asking anybody to accept them. I am telling the House the problem as the Government sees it. If there is—in relation to the expenses which, clearly, must be met by taxation—a deficit in the revenue account of about £15,000,000 or £16,000,000 and if, over and above, we have to raise some £30,000,000 or £35,000,000 for capital expenditure, then we are up against a real difficulty. Take the capital side of the account. The Coalition Government succeeded in borrowing from the Irish people an average of £15,000,000 per year during the three years it was in office. In each year in which they were in office they had an issue of Exchequer bonds. In addition, they had the normal borrowing through the Post Office Savings Bank, by the sale of saving certificates and by other methods. They raised, by borrowing within this country, an average of £15,000,000 per year.

I do not know if there is any likelihood that the volume of savings available for investment in Government stock this year will be higher than in previous years. We do know that last year the tendency was in the opposite direction. The financial experts have advised us that there was a net dissaving last year. If, therefore, this capital programme which we have in mind is to be financed at all it must be by bringing in money from outside —preferably by inducing our people who have investments abroad to realise these investments and to utilise the proceeds for the purchase of Irish Government loan stock. Whether people will do that is one of the matters upon which the Government will have to reach conclusions. Clearly, it is possible to induce them to do so or to get people outside the country to invest in Irish Government loans on some terms, but in my view the terms are far less important than the confidence which these potential investors have in the future of this State and in the genuine intentions of the Government to straighten out the country's finances. Unless we can get that confidence and inspire those who at present hold investments in other countries with confidence in the future of this State and in the intention of the Government of this State to keep its finances straight then we shall not succeed in inducing them on any terms to effect that realisation of their investments and to make that subscription to our internal loans.

Restrain the Minister for Finance from making after-dinner speeches in the Gresham Hotel.

I think that that interjection shows that Deputy Davin completely misunderstands the situation.

I do not.

In my view, the Irish people will respond to a clear statement of the position, no matter how brutal it is, provided they believe that it is honest.

When it is the truth.

I believe that the lack of confidence which has been developing—despite Deputy Norton's descriptions of conditions in Britain and his contrast of those conditions with conditions here—is encouraging a very large number of our people to hold on to their British investments rather than realise them to utilise them here. That is due to the fact that the people of this country have not, up to this, felt that they were getting an honest presentation of the national position.

It is due to the Minister's speeches last July.

Do not the Minister for Finance and Sir Basil Brooke agree we are poverty stricken? Basil Brooke has quoted the Minister for Finance.

Deputy Norton has spoken, and he should allow the Tánaiste to make his speech without interruption.

I do not want to use any adjectives in describing our present position. I want to be as factual as I can. I want to emphasise that Deputies have spoken here as if it were a matter for us to decide, through legislation or by resolution of this House, to what extent Irish people owning investments in Britain should realise them for the purpose of making money available to fill a national loan. That is not so. It could only be so if we decided here to confiscate the property of those people, to conscript their resources so that they would be available for our use. In case any such impression has been created outside the House by the speeches which have been made here, I want to make it quite clear that the Government has no intention of doing anything of the sort.

They are mending their hand very quickly.

We will not do that, because we think we would lose more than we would gain.

You could not get away with it.

Deputy Norton dealt with our banking system and that of Britain, and quoted various statements made by me and my colleague, the Minister for Finance, some 30 years ago in that connection.

Well, 20. I have said before that I am not very happy about our existing legislation in regard to currency and the business of banking. I recognise, however, that any proposal to change that legislation would be fraught with great dangers. Because of the very close association between our banking system and the British system, because of the many firms operating here who have got associations with firms in Great Britain, because of a multitude of reasons, it is obviously quite possible for people to withdraw funds from the Irish banks and transfer them to British banks in a very short time. If we brought here proposals for legislation which might create in the minds of those people a feeling that their resources were going to be affected, either reduced in value or conscripted for political purposes here, that transfer of funds would take place. Legislation could not be passed in the Dáil quickly. There would be bound to be a protracted period during which the matter would be under debate here——

Not necessarily.

——during which foolish statements could be made here, and we could easily find ourselves in the position in which we would have a very serious economic problem and rapidly rising unemployment.

You had 17 of 20 years in between in which to do it.

My point, therefore, is that you cannot hope to effect these changes without risk to the national economy except in circumstances under which the public are prepared to accept the need for the changes.

And so they would.

I have said that, in my opinion, that did not exist at any time for the past 20 years except during one brief period. It could not have been done during the economic war because, in the general circumstances prevailing at that time, any attempt to secure the passage through the Oireachtas of legislation of that kind would have been an added and very serious difficulty to the country. It was physically impossible during the war years. It is not possible now. The only time in which public opinion would have welcomed that legislation, during which its appearance here would not have been a cause of any great public anxiety, was the few weeks of 1949 when the British devalued the £—and the Government then in office chose not to follow it up.

I hope the same fears will not be in the Minister's mind when he wants to do it, as the people would be behind him.

It can be done by agreement, and the Minister knows it.

Deputy Davin does not understand what I am talking about. I have said it would be a matter of considerable difficulty to raise by borrowing the full amount of money required to finance the capital projects that we contemplate. I have pointed to the fact that the Coalition Government succeeded in borrowing from the Irish people an average of £15,000,000 per year and that our requirements in the present year are substantially larger. Nevertheless, it is true that the Coalition Government spent on capital account a much larger amount than they raised by borrowing from the Irish public. It was possible for them to do that by reason of the American loan made available under the Marshall Plan, which put into the Bank of Ireland, available to be drawn upon for these capital and other purposes, the equivalent of £40,000,000 sterling. That was a very considerable advantage to the Coalition, and when Deputy Norton here described the measures taken by the Coalition Government to pay out money for various purposes without getting that money from the people through taxation, he might, in all honesty, have mentioned it.

Deputy Dillon, however, thinks that the Coalition is to be praised because they decided to avail of the Marshall Plan to borrow that amount of money and he even went so far as to say that at one period when that plan was in operation the Government was worried because people were not spending enough dollars and that they circularised a number of firms in the country urging them to spend more dollars, dollars that from now on we will have to repay. I think it is no harm to mention here, so that we can get a more realistic appraisal of our situation, that when the Coalition Government met in May, 1948, to consider this question, they decided that it was not in the national interest to borrow under the Marshall Plan at all and they took a decision that they would not borrow. Relate that fact to Deputy Dillon's speech here the other day.

That statement is not true.

That statement is true and if it is challenged I will produce the records here to prove it.

Produce the Cabinet records as soon as you like.

It is true also that in June, 1948, a delegation from the Coalition Government went to London to discuss with the British Chancellor of the Exchequer and other British Ministers the general situation then prevailing both in financial and trade matters. That meeting led to the 1948 trade agreement and it led also to an undertaking which was published here, an undertaking by the Coalition Government to utilise Marshall Aid to the limit in order to create a situation in which there would be no net draw upon the dollar reserves of the sterling area while that aid was available. That agreement was made by the delegates who went to London and on their return the previous decision of the Coalition Government not to avail of loans under the Marshall Plan was formally reversed.

That is nonsense, sheer nonsense.

The Deputy must not have been very conscious of what was going on. However, the money was borrowed. Whether we would be now better off if it had not been borrowed or not is a matter I do not want to argue. The Minister for Finance asked any Deputy opposite to point to some concrete benefit secured by this country as a result of the expenditure of that loan which would not have been secured if that borrowing had not been made. I want somebody to do that. There is not a single project that was initiated as a direct result of the availability of Marshall dollars. At any rate, every project that was mentioned in that connection—land reclamation, drainage, local authority works, housing, hospitals—every single one of those projects is proceeding this year as vigorously as ever and there are no Marshall dollars.

Because you spent 26,000,000 of them in nine months.

Will Deputies face up to the realities of the situation? The realities indicate that this year we have to raise by borrowing, inside or outside this country, the requirements of the capital programme, the money necessary to keep these activities going, and if we cannot do that they cannot be kept going.

Why not tell the truth about Marshall Aid?

That is the truth.

In three years we spent 14,000,000; in eight months you spent 26,000,000.

Is not that just trick-of-the loop politics?

Does not the Deputy realise that we did not spend a penny this year that we did not find ourselves committed to when we came into office?

Why did not you raise a national loan?

Do you think the Minister for Finance was sitting down looking for someone to give out money to? Do not you realise that not a penny would have been spent if there was not a commitment involving the expenditure?

Why had not you the courage to issue a national loan?

The Deputy might be an expert in that.

You voted against the Works Act and cut down expenditure by 50 per cent. and sacked hundreds of men in my constituency.

Now the Deputy is being consciously dishonest.

Ask the Deputy behind you.

When we are talking about the amount provided for expenditure under the Local Authorities (Works) Act mentioned in the Book of Estimates we are talking about expenditure next year. If there has been curtailment of expenditure this year up to 31st March next it is because inadequate provision was made in the Estimates of 1951 by the Coalition Government. Is not that so?

You cut the expenditure next year by 50 per cent. and you know it.

Had not the Coalition Government cut the provision for the Local Authorities (Works) Act by £500,000 last year? Is not that true?

You were told about that yesterday evening. You were not here.

That is true and if there has been a reduction in employment under that Act in this year it is because of that cutting of the Estimate last year. This year we have decided that the total amount to be provided for local authority work or road works will be the same but, for various reasons which can be discussed in detail, we have decided that it is preferable that there should be a higher expenditure on the road side even if it means a lower expenditure on the other side.

It does not apply to the County Laois anyway.

I have been dealing up to the present with the Budget problems, the problems that the Minister for Finance is now contending with and a solution for which he will outline to the House on 2nd April. These Budget problems have to be fitted in to the over-all national picture. We have got an adverse trade balance. We have a substantial deficit in our international payments. If we were just alone in the world, if we were the only country in the world in that situation, we could say to ourselves that, although it is serious, it is not a matter of urgency; it is urgent only in the sense that we see the wasting of the assets upon which we will have to rely if we are going to get the expansion of national productivity that everybody recognises to be necessary. But we are not alone in the world and there is no good considering this problem and ignoring the position in Great Britain or in other countries in Europe and in fact in many other countries in the world. That gap in our balance of payments, that very considerable gap, has become not merely a matter of concern but a matter of urgency in relation to the crisis of sterling—and Deputies opposite need have no illusions about the reality of the sterling crisis. They have seen the gold and dollar reserves of the sterling area dropping down towards the point at which in 1949 sterling was devalued. It could be argued that they are at that point now because the purchasing power of the present reserves is obviously lower than the reserves of 1949.

They have read the statements by the British Chancellor of the Exchequer of the measures which he is taking in order to stop the drain upon these reserves, of his anxiety about the next three or four months' period because these measures and the concerted measures taken by other sterling area countries cannot become effective until the second half of the year.

Is it not clear that, if these reserves run out or fall so low that their allocation to sterling area countries has to be rationed, we are in an immediate difficulty because we are not spending any part of them in the purchase of goods in America or on the Continent of Europe except goods that are vital to the maintenance of our present industrial and agricultural activity? If, not because of any wish of ours, but because of the failure or ineffectiveness of the measures which have been taken elsewhere to protect these reserves, we can no longer secure the same volume of supplies in these other areas against the only payment that we can make for them, payment in sterling, then we are into a position of acute difficulty which will jeopardise not merely the volume of our production, but the livelihood of many of our citizens.

Why use dollars with Canada to buy waste paper?

Why waste paper?

Look up the recent shipping returns.

The only waste paper imported from Canada was used to print the Irish Independent. It is obvious, anyhow, that we cannot afford to be indifferent to the fate of sterling, nor can we afford to be unco-operative or appear to be uncooperative.

Deputies opposite have been talking about the present situation in which we are and in which other countries also find themselves, without reference to the changes that are taking place right now and the changes that have taken place during the past month or six weeks. There have been critical changes in the whole world situation in the past few weeks. Almost every country in the world which, like ourselves, was concerned at the beginning of this year or towards the end of last year, at the danger of the inflationary forces, which were then active, getting out of hand, are now no longer worried, any more than we are, about the danger of runaway inflation. They are beginning to get much more worried about the possibility of deflation, of the downward spiral beginning to move.

That is more like it.

Your policy of deflation.

Will Deputy Davin stop talking nonsense? Do Deputies know what is happening in the world?

It is happening here.

Of course it is happening here. Is not that the point I want to make?

In spite of all the Minister's prophecies.

I have never claimed to be a prophet. I want to tell you what is happening. Last year, Western European countries were meeting in Paris to sign a trade liberation code under which they agreed not to impose restrictions upon the growing volume of trade, restrictions which would prevent the movement of goods between one country and another. Within the past two months, Britain, France and other countries have already repudiated their obligations under that code and have imposed restrictions on imports in contravention of its terms, restrictions on imports which are hitting us in our exports. Deputies will have seen the action Australia took to cut down imports, not merely from dollar areas but from Britain, and they will have seen similar action by New Zealand—not quite the same, but similar in its effects on the world situation. We are obviously entering a period in which trade restrictions are going to multiply.

If every country wants to reduce its imports and increase its exports, how does that work out in relation to the world trade balance?

It is not going to work out. Is it not obviously the situation that with this growing tendency toward trade restrictionism, with every country trying to stave off the possibility of deflation and unemployment by these devices, the possibility of securing the expansion in output, the expansion in exports which our economy requires, is going to be much more difficult?

That is why the prosperity of the country has to come first.

Certainly, and that gets back to this point: That is why we cannot afford now to be dissipating these financial reserves of ours in the purchase of goods we can do without, goods that we should be making for ourselves. We have to keep them for the capital investment which alone can enable us to get out of this difficult situation. That is why I resent and object to the tone of speeches delivered here—Deputy Dillon's was a case in point—justifying and urging the continuation of the policy of importing wheat, importing maize and importing everything that we can get from any part of the world instead of concentrating on the job of producing them for ourselves, even if it costs more to produce these goods here than it would cost to buy them elsewhere.

Did you not get a guarantee against further devaluation?

Deputy Davin has already spoken.

The Deputy will have seen the statements of the British Chancellor of the Exchequer. He has announced the measures he has taken in order to protect sterling. He has announced his confidence that these measures will be effective, and there is this to be said, that all the indications up to the present are that these measures will be effective.

There will be no further devaluation.

There is another development in England which is also going to have its repercussions on us. The British Government has directed the British banks to increase the rate of interest on deposits to 2 per cent. Clearly, in our situation that may lead to a transfer of funds from the Irish banking system, seeking the higher deposit rate, and it is obvious that the Irish banks will be forced to take some protective measures. From every angle, it seems clear that we are entering a period of dearer money. That also is going to have an effect upon our development programmes. It need not have a seriously deterring effect but it will undoubtedly have to be taken into account when planning our future activities.

Is the Minister aware that the banks have taken action?

It is possible that they have.

Can the Minister say what that action is?

The banks do not consult them—they do what they like.

May I ask if the Minister is aware that the banks have taken action and is he prepared to discuss the effect of that on the situation here?

It is easily seen that it is time the Minister took the action he indicated some time ago—to make this Government the solemn authority in the country over the banks and the banking system.

The Deputy talks a great deal of nonsense in that regard. It does not matter who controls the Irish banks in a matter of that kind, unless we are going to establish a Soviet system, under which we control the life and resources of every individual.

I am talking about the Irish Parliament being the boss and not about Sovietism.

That is what the Deputy means—Parliament having the right to order everyone around and confiscate property. I am against it, and will fight very hard against it.

Deputy Hickey will get an opportunity of making his contribution later.

Reference has been made to the increase in unemployment. This, as I have said before, is the danger signal for us. It indicates, first, that our price level has got to the stage at which the volume of trade, the volume of sales, is going to fall off, and unless we can get our price level down again, higher unemployment is going to continue. Any development amongst any section of our people to compensate themselves for the effect of higher taxes or the repercussions of the international situation by getting a greater share of the national income—whether it is the farmer demanding a higher price, the worker striking for higher wages or the manufacturer or trader seeking to get higher profits—is bound again to create a situation in which trade will decline and unemployment will increase, in which the total volume of trade will contract, and with it the volume of employment.

This situation is not peculiar to ourselves and it is nonsense to talk about the decline in the clothing trade and the boot and shoe industry as being due to speeches made here. Speeches made here did not have any repercussions in Belfast, in England, in America or in any of the countries of Europe, where precisely similar conditions have developed. The most remarkable thing, the most significant thing is that, in America, despite the armament expenditure to which Deputy MacEoin referred, there has been no falling off in supplies to meet ordinary civilian demands. It is quite obvious that the American economy is such that the curtailment of armament expenditure would mean a corresponding fall in American productivity and employment and could easily set off an international slump such as developed from conditions in America in 1929.

We have in this year to take account not merely of our present circumstances but of the dangers that threaten us in the future. These dangers are quite considerable. I will concede—and Deputies can make any point they like out of it—that right now they look to be very different in character from what they looked 12 months, or even six months, ago, but they are not less serious in their significance.

Is it not a repetition of 1929 and 1931 that is taking place?

That is too wide a question. I urge this—and it is the only thing I have to say further to this matter—that the circumstances in which we find ourselves now, the significance of the trends which are now appearing, the dangers which may emerge from international conditions during the course of this year, are all such as to require us, in conscience, to stop playing Party politics about them and to get down to the preparation of productive plans.

Will the Deputies over there stop wailing?

I take it Deputy Collins agrees with that, and no doubt he will demonstrate it when he talks now.

Will you stop wailing over there? In dealing with the Vote on Account to-day, I propose to divide my speech into four sections. First, I propose to deal with the false atmosphere of crisis from which the Minister for Industry and Commerce has run away to-day. His intervention now is typical of his brass neck and is deliberately designed to offset the difficulty he has to face next week in the Social Welfare Bill. He gets up here to talk about Marshall Aid with this amazing situation factually in existence: there is common case that it was worth £40,000,000, and the position is that the inter-Party Government, over a period of three years, dissipated £14,000,000 of it, and the Minister, with his wailing Minister for Finance and his miaowing Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, has in nine months succeeded in spending £26,000,000 of those moneys.

We handed over to the present Government a country which had confidence in the Government, a country in which there was increased productivity, a country in which there was internal peace. Here again, the rotten, ugly head of Fianna Fáil politics comes to light at once. They could never exist or develop without a crisis, and if one was not there they tried to create it. I want to know from the Minister and from the Minister for Finance what threat they received at Whitehall on this occasion. We have heard them in the past talking about rumours of "immediate and terrible war". What brought back a dumb Minister for Industry and Commerce and a silent Minister for Finance from Whitehall? Was it because the Chancellor of the British Exchequer had told them to go home and to be good boys? We find the Minister now quoting the analogy of Australia and New Zealand and everywhere else within the Empire.

They used to dub us the Empire Party but it looks as if the Minister and the Minister for Finance are far more worthy of such description than ever we were. They come back with nothing to say. If they had achieved the least scintilla of success they would be back with trumpets blowing, but they have come back licked. Instead of coming back with their old slogan about whipping John Bull they have come back afraid to tell the Irish people what transpired, the Taoiseach afraid to tell the House, and the issue evaded. With the wailing wall set up by the Minister for Finance, and the miaowing and scratching of the new deputy assistant banshee Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, they are trying to tell the country that there is something wrong. Within the fortnight they were playing the tune that but for the Fianna Fáil Party having come into office matters would have been serious. They are deliberately, maliciously and for political purposes hiding from the country the extraordinary buoyancy of the revenue and the extraordinary and practical advance in prosperity and in national endeavour now evidenced as a result of inter-Party Government over a period of years. They are deliberately trying to hoodwink and delude the people and force them into crisis hysteria, while they cut expenditure in rural areas, create unemployment heedlessly, and run the country into a hair-shirt policy which is completely unreal and absolutely unnecessary, as we are in the extraordinary financial position of being one of the finest creditor nations in the world, one of the most credit-worthy nations in the world.

We find Fianna Fáil hoist on their own petard. They cannot develop the country because of their stupid political catch-cries about a country in pawn. They regret deeply now some of the slogans they put on the hoardings, some of the advertisements they so blatantly displayed. A majority of the people of the country never had confidence in them; they never could get it; they could never successfully float a loan, and they know it. The Minister did not explain here why he finds himself in difficulties with regard to borrowing. He did not explain to the people of the country the simple economic facts that the inter-Party Government, through the establishment of peace at home, an increase in employment at home, a general increase in the earning capacity of individuals at home and a general over-all increase in the standard of living, had created an atmosphere of confidence, in which they could go to the people legitimately and ask them to give of their savings in loans to the Government for the future development of their own country. We did that, and the reason why Marshall Aid was used in such a small degree over the three years was that it was used purely to fill the gap where we did not want to force the banks or allow foreign investors into the loan—£14,000,000 in three and a half years when we succeeded in borrowing, with the goodwill of the Irish people, in spite of the sabotage and obstruction of Fianna Fáil, sums never borrowed from the Irish people before. For what purpose? For the development of Ireland.

It suddenly becomes a sin for Irish people in an Irish Parliament to advocate the immediate investment of as much Irish money as possible at home in Ireland. The Minister talks about increases in bank rates. When Deputy Mulcahy questioned him this morning on the action of the banks he ran away from the question; he sat down practically in the middle of his speech and then disappeared from the House. The lesson is too plainly written to all: instead of standing on our own two feet and dealing with our problems which are completely different from England's we are going to follow them willy-nilly and copy their economic pattern. We are going to ask our people, who belong to a credit-worthy nation, who have an expanding national income and a tremendous amount of under-investment at home, to follow an austerity régime which is imposed on a nation which is not credit-worthy, which has no foreign savings and which cannot produce or sell enough to meet current commitments. There is no justification for it and it is time that this Fianna Fáil nonsense was laid naked and bare.

The Minister comes in here to sing a completely different tune from the Minister for Finance because he has discovered, as was discovered in the Central Bank Report, that the tempo is not as he thought it was and that the people will not believe so easily that you can switch from a position of advancing and expanding prosperity and increasing employment to the reverse overnight. The answer is simple: there is no leadership in Fianna Fáil and there never was. Now when they should be putting their hands to the helm to steady and control the ship of State they are talking in divers voices, they can never get on the same note, they are creating confusion and a lack of public confidence in the country and they are doing it deliberately for their political ends. Then we have the Minister with the crass-brass neck to talk of using things for Party advantage. From the day he accidentally got himself into office to the present day there have been moans and groans about the finances of the country. They were left in a healthy state and I cannot see what objection the economist or practical man can have to the use of Irish money for the development of Irish projects at home. The Minister now for the purpose of argument concedes that Deputy McGilligan was right in his capital Budget. He did not question one item of it. What is wrong? Instead of investing our money as we are doing at a half of 1 per cent. in dud and rapidly becoming more dud English securities why should we not repatriate it and pour it into the land of Ireland, the homes of Ireland and the development of permanently better conditions for the Irish people at home?

There is no crisis. Even the poor, timid little Minister for Posts and Telegraphs came in here the other night and said: "There is no crisis." We know that there is not a crisis. The only crisis that exists is in the complete ineptitude of the Government, their lack of ability, lack of leadership and lack of cohesion. There is nothing there to rally a nation to effort. There is nothing there to inspire again public confidence. It is a trick Government, doing a trick-of-the-loop act. So much for the false air of crisis.

Let us deal realistically with the financial position. Will some Deputy from the Fianna Fáil Benches get up and tell me what is wrong with using the savings of the Irish people, voluntarily given, to develop Irish land, to promote drainage, housing, local works and developments of that nature? What is wrong with getting that money in a voluntary way by borrowing from the Irish people, rather than touring with the axe of taxation to extort it from them? Equate expenditure to the period of time over which its gain is spread or to the period over which its earning capacity will mature. Equate the cost of your house with the life of that house or the cost of improving your land with what the potential value of its increased fertility may be. Equate the cost of the benefit which you will derive in future years, and in that way assess in a realistic manner what the contribution for any one year to that development should be, and you have sound practicable economics.

There seems to be something wrong, according to Fianna Fáil, in raising money to provide services that last for a generation or two generations, the full fruition of which may not be felt for many years to come, but I assert that there is nothing wrong in raising money for purposes of that kind, in funding it and repaying it over the period during which the expenditure is likely to be effective. That is sound economics, and I want anybody to get up and show where it is wrong. What the Minister is threatening to do is to wield the axe of taxation just to create unnecessary hardship for the people of this country, to offset the frustration, and the personal chagrin in many cases, caused by a period out of office. It is spite, in the main, against the Irish people who found them out. It is spite by a Government which got no mandate from the people; a minority Government are back in power to impose their will on the Irish people again.

What is the answer to our problem to-day? It is a simple and straightforward one. We want a bit of leadership; we want a little courage. We do not want inane laughter from the new Deputy for Donegal.

He is enjoying it.

We want to face up to the primary necessities of development in the country. We have two arms which we must develop, if we are to carry out effectively the job of governing the country. There is an insistent demand, a rightfully insistent demand, to increase agricultural production. Let me warn the Government fairly and squarely that they can neither bully nor coerce the farming community into giving them that. Here, again, the farming community want constructive and solid leadership. In one voice the Minister for Agriculture is appealing for expanded production; in another voice the Tánaiste is threatening that they may have to reintroduce compulsion. There is the spirit and the will to work always in the Irish farmer. He is entitled to get a just return for this work and to be put in a position to make a living commensurate with his importance to the State and to pay his help a wage commensurate with that due to men working in the primary industry of the country. There is only one way we can do that, and that is by making cheap money available to the farming community for development.

When one thinks of the amount of money this country has invested to ensure liquidity, when one thinks of the lack of return it is getting for it, it is pathetic to look, on the other hand, at the under-investment in Irish land. The real source of the nation's wealth is ultimately and fundamentally agriculture. There is no land in Ireland that is not capable of improvement. There is a terrific lot of it crying out for improvement. Surely, if we are facing in any realistic way the problem of doing the job of governing this country well, we must start by considering how we should tackle the question of agricultural expansion. Many diverse views have been expressed on all sides of the House over a period of years in connection with agriculture. It has too often been the plaything of politics. I deliberately make the suggestion that we require a completely new approach to the development of our agricultural resources. We are faced with the problem of many holdings being too small, of many holdings being ill-equipped and of the farmers themselves being impoverished. We are faced with the immense problem of the amazing waste of land in ditches and headlands all over the country. We are faced with the problem of making the best possible use of the land we have, what we can raise on it or feed from what we can raise on it, as the fundamental basis of our national economy. We shall not get a solution for that problem by trying to bully or coerce the farmer or by making money dearer for him. If this is a country that is extremely credit-worthy, a country with considerable foreign assets and if the world situation is as the Tánaiste has endeavoured to paint it, surely we should be looking to the early realisation of these assets and their reinvestment in this country to ensure that they will be worth something some day.

Agricultural production involves, in the main, the following considerations: (1) that the farmer gets a just return for his labour and that his prices are commensurate with a reasonable profit for him, and (2) that he is enabled to pay labour a decent wage that will be attractive to labour and will encourage labour to stay in rural Ireland. If we want to get that type of agricultural expansion we can only get it by a Government which has the courage to invest more and more money in the land through the good, decent, hard-working type of farmer who has always been the backbone of our economy. You are not going to get it by telling the farmer to buy less or to spend less. It is true that many farmers were able to make a bit of money under the last Government. More power to them, but the farmer is inevitably conservative, and the type of scare speeches which were made by people who should have a better sense of responsibility is not going to encourage the farmer to expand with the bit of money he has in reserve. To preach caution will never serve the purpose of getting expansion.

Some day we shall have to face, and the sooner the better, the problem of conceiving and designing an agricultural programme which, over a period of years, will bring us maximum productivity. We are not going to get that by the Department being constantly subject to the whims of politicians every time there is a change of Government. I have advocated before, and I make the suggestion seriously with regard to the development of agriculture, that it should be in the hands of a type of bureau that would be able to plan in a concerted long-term way, and that would not be subject to complete reversal because of some political change.

If the Government are in earnest about increased production, let them not think that the ominous threats of gaps artificially created for scare purposes, with the inferential threat of high and increased taxation, are going to do anything to encourage maximum effort in the farmer and his worker. The immensity of the problem will have to be faced with honesty if we want to get anywhere.

We are not only lacking in the availablity of money to the farmer for development purposes, but there is a tremendous shortage in the range of fertilisers which he needs. The fertilisers which are available to him are prohibitive in price. There is a tremendous shortage also of the equipment which might be best suited to his type of development. There is, too, an obvious dearth throughout the country of the leadership that is necessary, in parishes or areas, to encourage farmers to advance from some of their conservative ways of Irish farming. Increased agricultural production requires something more than appeals over the wireless. It needs considered planning and an agricultural policy that is flexible enough to enable the farmer to avail to a certain extent of certain types of sudden changes that may occur, while at the same time allowing the farmer to use his land according to the methods of good husbandry, and so as not to depreciate its capital value.

I represent a constituency which, in the main, is composed of small farmer holdings. It has been asserted in this House before, and I am proud to make the assertion again, that there is no finer type of farmer, from the work point of view in Ireland, than there is in West Cork. But he is labouring under difficulties due to a shortage of capital, which prevent him from getting the necessary type of machinery that must be available to him if we want expansion to occur in any appreciable form. If we are to get a gradual increase in agricultural production, may I ask any of the economists on the other side of the House, what would be wrong with a Government raising the sum of money it felt necessary, funding it, and arranging for its repayment over a period of years, for the purpose of making cheap money available to the farmer for development?

I think that would be sound, practical economics. I think that the ultimate return on it by way of increased production, with an improvement in the quality of the land, would far exceed its investment in any other conceivable type of security. I feel, however, that my suggestion is going to fall on deaf ears because we have not the courage to plan over a period. We are haphazard in our methods from year to year and from Government to Government. There will be no real increase in agricultural production and no real development until we are able to make readily available to the farmer the type of money that he wants for the development of his holding. He has always had the energy and the capacity to produce and even under the most trying circumstances he has served the country well.

I say that the time has now come for us, realising what our wealth and potential wealth is, to pour all the money we can lay our hands on into the development and the improvement of what is our own real wealth—the land. I think that is the only practical approach to the question of agricultural expansion. I am certain that unless we approach the problem in that way we will never avoid these perpetual agitations in one section of the industry or another. We will have to have a planned and balanced economy.

In the course of the debate to-day some Deputy made a rather peculiar reference to grass. Grass is an integral part of our agricultural economy. Such grass as we have should be improved where there is room for improvement. That is a type of investment the nation would be very wise to pursue. Good grass will produce better results in stock, and that stock will in turn inevitably command better prices. That is exactly the type of investment I want to see made on behalf of the Irish farmer. That is the type of investment to which any Government would be infinitely better off in putting its hand rather than in talking about internal disinvestment or the repatriation of external assets.

One must remember that in the agricultural field we are both under-capitalised and underdeveloped. The solution to our problem is to tackle it now and not to keep running away from it. If there has been no real increase in the general overall agricultural production level for the last 50 years then agriculture presents itself to us now as a problem to be tackled forthwith. We will get nowhere by making money dearer and less readily available to the agricultural community. If this Government does not face up forthwith to the need and the desirability of increased investment in a capital programme, then the quicker they leave office the better it will be for the country.

The position is that they have not stopped land rehabilitation, works under the Local Authorities (Works) Act, the ground limestone scheme and various other schemes initiated by their predecessors, but they have deliberately "gone slow" on them. It is to be a gradual process to bring about the elimination of anything that might be beneficial to the Irish farmer because it bears the taint of Deputy James Dillon and the inter-Party Government.

That is stupid politics. That is miserable politics. That is something which is doing no good from the national point of view. In my constituency, farmers at the present time cannot get deliveries of ground limestone. The Minister pleads difficulty of transport. Mark you, the flow was far freer under the last régime and there has been an appreciable improvement in the transport situation in the interval because of the delivery of the type of lorries necessary for haulage.

This Government is playing miserable politics, not unworthy perhaps of the people who are playing them but certainly unworthy of a Government seeking to encourage production in agriculture. The farmer is no fool. He knows perfectly well what is going on. He knows full well the difficulties that have been placed in his path in order to prevent him availing of schemes conceived by the Government's predecessors in office. Unless the Government stops that codology they will never get anywhere with an appeal for increased production.

The Minister for Industry and Commerce may juggle with figures any way he likes. He may tell us that the Government will spend more on the roads to compensate for the reduction under the Local Authorities (Works) Act. The fact remains that there has been a tremendous increase in unemployment in the rural areas where schemes that were of practical benefit to these areas have been discontinued. Land rehabilitation, drainage and all the other schemes would be of permanent benefit and give employment in the immediate environs of their own homes to those people so badly in need of employment. If Fianna Fáil wants the gradual denudation of rural Ireland of its population and a return to the emigrant ship they are going a good way about achieving that object.

Their philosophy is an unreal one. They are trying to convince the Irish people that their destiny is in some way allied to that of England and that they are in some way in the same economic plight as the people across the water. Nothing could be further from the truth. There was never an occasion in the history of this country when a Minister for Finance and a Minister for Industry and Commerce could have gone with greater independence and more courage than did the Minister for Finance and the Tánaiste a few weeks ago to the British Chancellor of the Exchequer. We were in the happy position that we had not drawn anything for a number of years from the dollar reserve. We were in the position that we had voluntarily given up the right to use moneys in the dollar reserve pool in the sterling area. Instead of coming back, having told the British Chancellor what they intended to do and indicated how they intended to do it, they come back hushed in silence, a silence which in relation to Fianna Fáil denotes only one thing—they got nothing. Had they brought back anything that could be twisted into some form of success, the trumpets would still be sounding. That is the great nationalist Party which derided my Party, Cumann na nGaedheal, as the Empire Party. That is the great nationalist Party that comes back from London quietly and meekly, hat still in hand, having accepted the dictates of the British Chancellor of the Exchequer in conformity with the wishes of the various Imperial Parliaments.

Old Moore's Almanac is only trotting after you.

The truth is always bitter.

Bitter, indeed, is the pill that the Deputy has to swallow. Never yet has Fianna Fáil done anything in this country except on dissension or on crisis. If there was not a crisis, it created one. Fianna Fáil is deliberately setting itself out to-day to undo the grand work that was done three years ago when domestic difficulties and domestic differences were healed. Fianna Fáil are trying to reopen the old sores over which a healthy skin had grown in that three years of internal domestic peace. Fianna Fáil is trying to unsettle the country as they have always tried to unsettle it since the first day our Government was founded playing, as they have always done, miserable Party politics. So much for agriculture. Let me finish with the warning that you will not bully or coerce the Irish farmer. Give him the capital, give him the tools and he will do the job. That is the proper approach to agriculture.

Let us view for a moment the latest track of misery in the wake of the hair-shirt speeches of the Minister for Finance and the queer ullagóning by the stray sheep, the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs — the ever-mounting increase in the number of unemployed, the ever-mounting increase of the human export of young Irish boys and girls. You can be proud of yourselves if you want, but it is a doleful record. Why? Because you played politics foolishly and you have now been hoist with your own petard. The Irish people, exercising a judgment they have never lacked, are thoroughly suspicious of you. They know that you are there by false pretences and you cannot in any way avoid the consequences of the fact that you were born in shame and that some day, as a political Party, you will die in that shame.

While we were in office we put 37,000 extra people into employment in industry. We expended money that ensured employment for people. After a short eight months of the dead hand of the Fianna Fáil Government, the whole trend is reversed, and Deputy Davern is meeting in his constituency the looks of gloom and misery that he has been a party to creating. He will not get away from it.

Things are very hard over there.

You are getting touchy. You would like to be back in Fine Gael now. What is the explanation of the miserable failure of the new junta? Lack of cohesion, lack of leadership, lack of ability are written all over them. When the Tánaiste spoke here to-day there was not a handful of his satellites to listen to his words of wisdom. If I had thought fit, I could have directed the Ceann Comhairle's attention to the fact that there was not a quorum in the House to hear him. That is a great tribute to the leadership which does not exist. They are feeling that lack of leadership.

We will learn from you.

If you take note, you may learn something. If you take notice of Deputy Davern, you will learn only to pow-wow.

I suggest that the Deputy come back to the Vote on Account.

The position is that you will get no stability back into industry, no desire for investment in industry, no development of industry while you have unreal leadership in the Government of this country. They are a Government with diverse voices. When they were in opposition, they talked about the diverse tongues in a Government constituted from every other section of the Irish people except Fianna Fáil, but now their back benchers and front benchers alike are all at sixes and sevens because they are feeling the pinch in their constituencies.

Although the Minister for Finance, Deputy MacEntee, thought he was making a great speech at a dinner in the Gresham Hotel when he talked about things being near a state of desperation, the ordinary Deputy in his constituency is getting the back-lash of the unreality of the Minister's statement. You "codded" the Irish people for a time, but you cannot "cod" them all the time. It is quite evident that Fianna Fáil, who at one time boasted of being the poor man's Government, are now preparing for a slashing attack on the food subsidies of the poorer sections of the community. A good friend of the Fianna Fáil Party at one time said that he was going to whip John Bull. Now the Minister for Finance is definitely preparing the ground for imitating the British Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Butler.

There was never any need for creating this scare. In the discussion on the Central Bank Report, we twisted you in the opposite direction. Then the Tánaiste comes in to-day, knowing the drift of political thought and the feeling of the country, to try to remove from the forum of discussion the financial situation that the Minister for Finance put in the forefront. The Tánaiste started by lecturing us on our duty and the necessity for curbing expenditure. But he was not able to contribute one suggestion as to how the rising cost of Government services could be curbed. I suppose there are few Deputies who will face up to it, but has not the time come for Deputies to ask themselves the question that I asked on a previous Vote on Account —where and when will we stop the growth of the Irish Civil Service? Is it not time for us to ask ourselves where we propose to draw the line of demarcation? At the rate of progress over the last 30 years, we will soon be a few inhabitants surrounded by a band of civil servants. We talk about the expansion of agriculture when agriculture must ultimately carry the burden of all these State services. We are grudging the farmer freely available cheap money for development. This Vote on Account caught the Minister for Finance on the wrong foot.

He has brought his Budget forward, but he was not as adroit as his friend in Whitehall. He did not bring it forward enough to avoid this discussion, in which we, as a responsible Opposition, are able to lay before the country the complete lack of sincerity of the Government's approach, and the complete facade of bluff with which they have tried to intimidate the Irish people. Intimidation was always Fianna Fáil's weapon. However, we have the opportunity of laying naked before the Irish people, before the introduction of the Budget, this attempted intimidation. We have had time to warn the people, in a realistic way, that Fianna Fáil are deceiving them with such phrases as: "A terrible situation has arisen, but when the 2nd April has gone by everything will be all right. Is it not a great thing that we had Deputy Johnny MacEntee as Minister for Finance to save the country from tragedy?" There is no tragedy.

Deputy Cunningham let the cat out of the bag yesterday.

Fianna Fáil got the country back from us geared up to a state of development which they would never have conceived, geared up in such a way that there was internal unity, an improving output in agriculture, an increase in industrial production and a general upsurge of confidence in the institutions and in the finances of the State. With wanton deliberation, and with absolutely profligate politics, Fianna Fáil have tried to dissipate that spirit in the country. That is their constant rôle in Irish public life. It is about time the people of this country fully realised that there is nothing of more paramount importance to a Fianna Fáil Deputy than the Fianna Fáil Party and that the nation and the consequences to the nation of any irresponsibility do not matter a jot to him. That is the sordid, tragic story of the Government approach to this Vote on Account. The sooner they get out and give the country a chance to have the Government it deserves, the better for us all.

I am one of those new Deputies to whom the previous speaker referred. I have never been present in this House before for a debate on the Vote on Account. I did not intend to contribute to this debate but, having listened here for a few days to the trend of the discussion, I felt I should make some reference to things which did not appear to me to make sense. First of all, it seems to me that this debate has been somewhat similar to, if not entirely the same as, the debate which took place on the Supplies and Services Bill last autumn. In fact, the speeches made by Deputies on the Opposition Benches were practically a copy of the speeches on that occasion—all leaning towards the same thing. My own opinion was that, on a debate on the Vote on Account, one should make reference to what the future might hold in relation to the Estimates in that account. However, most of what I heard from the Opposition was made up of references to unemployment, which, at this stage, could only be attributed to the money which was voted last year. Frequent references were made to unemployment due to the curtailment of the moneys available in the Local Authorities (Works) Act. It seems to me that the money, or lack of money, provided under the Local Authorities (Works) Act in this Vote can hardly be held responsible for unemployment last December. That is only one of the many matters I fail to understand or, as Deputy Collins said, to learn from some of the Deputies opposite whom I have heard speaking. However, there was one point on which everybody seems to be agreed. At least, the principal speakers of the Opposition all agree that we have serious financial problems to solve and, furthermore, they agree that the way to solve them is by increased production. If, then, we have serious problems, is it a crime to make them known to the nation?

Surely it is not a crime for the Minister for Finance to let the Irish people know of the difficulties which confront their country? If references are made to these problems and if remedial measures are brought about as a result, I fail to see the crime in that. I looked over the Dáil Reports to see what happened in this House on the introduction of the Budget last year. I was not a member of this House then, and it was information to me to read the speech made by the then Minister for Finance. I would like to quote one or two paragraphs from this speech by Deputy McGilligan who is acclaimed by the Opposition as the supreme authority on finance on their benches, the man by whom they were guided and on whom they looked as the Messiah of finance in this country. In Volume 125, No. 13, of the 2nd May, 1951, at columns 1883 and 1884, Deputy McGilligan said:

"The present position on external account is by no means satisfactory, and if it continues to develop unfavourably the application of corrective measures will be called for..."

Nothing was done about it.

I will continue the quotation:

"Making all allowance for the exceptional conditions now obtaining it is to be feared that we are not producing and earning enough to pay our way..."

That was the opinion of the Minister for Finance last year, but the present Minister for Finance has been castigated for making practically the same reference a year later when the position has become worse and when the adverse balance has become more acute and more serious. That is what all this hullabaloo has been about here for the past few days.

You did not heed that statement.

That is the statement made by Deputy McGilligan when he was Minister for Finance in the inter-Party Government. That is amusing. There is general agreement that an increase in agricultural production is the main way of improving our position. I think that is agreed on all sides of the House but I doubt if some of the speeches made here from the Opposition will tend towards increasing agricultural production.

The land project has been extolled as a great method of making the land more productive and, mind you, there was a good deal of money spent unwisely by the Coalition Government and the land project was by no means the worst. Money put into the land in any shape is useful in so far as it improves its productivity but it might be no harm, without going into detail, which this debate does not permit, to make some reference to the land project as the country saw it during the years of Coalition. When people who had heretofore been accustomed to have their land improved under the farm improvements scheme without any delay or red tape connected with them applied for drainage on their land and were told it would be undertaken in the course of two, three or four years, they failed to see where the economy or the benefit was in the land project. It was misrepresented to them at the outset that drainage would take place immediately.

I could bring you along the roads of Donegal and point out plots on which as high as £800 has been expended in an effort to reclaim bogland, where money was practically wasted and where what were probably intended to be demonstration plots to encourage participation in the scheme had had the very opposite effect. It has discouraged people from attempting to have anything to do with reclaiming land of the type on which this money was wasted. That money would be more wisely expended on schemes such as we have under the farm improvements scheme.

I have not the figures available but I think that Fianna Fáil in their time spent more money on the farm improvements scheme than the Opposition spent in any year on the land project. It was spent without red tape or any difficulty whatever. When the local inspector of the Department came around and asked the farmer what he intended to do the inspector was in a position to tell him that he could go ahead the next day and carry out his proposals.

Mr. Coburn

He probably knew the local secretary of Fianna Fáil.

If there was any political influence used it was never known until the Coalition came into being. It was then we saw it coming into play. Under the farm improvements scheme there was no distinction whatever made. When the agricultural inspector called the farmer outlined the work it was intended to do and the job was undertaken the next day irrespective of Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael, Labour or Blueshirt.

Or red shirt.

Or red. Now the position is under the land project, if the farmer writes a letter to the Department, it goes back to the local office and it is filed there. He is put on a waiting list and two or three years hence he will have some results in connection with the drain that is already stagnant and flooding his land. If the land project is to be carried on the Minister should very seriously consider improving the system under which it is operated and see that the money will be spent expeditiously and not wasted. The land will give a return for any improvements effected.

Mr. Coburn

Are you not aware that this is a ten-year plan?

When I come to study it, I think it must be a 50-year plan. There was considerable discussion about the question of imports and in what connection our external assets should be used. Deputy Dillon spoke strongly in favour of maintaining our imports and decried our cutting down any of them. He was supported by some of the Deputies in the same contention. In Donegal last June, we noticed the serious falling off in the hosiery industry. People were being paid off in the knitting factories in the Gaeltacht. I put down a question in the House asking the Minister what quantity of finished knitwear was imported to this country during the 12 months ended 30th June, 1951. The answer taken from the statistics available was that almost £3,000,000 worth of finished knitwear alone was imported to this country during those 12 months.

Does any Deputy on the other side of the House believe that that was wise, in view of the fact that we have a knitting industry and factories in this country which are capable of supplying the entire needs of the people? I did not hear a single Deputy trying to defend that, except Deputy Dillon, who said that we should continue importing, which, in his entire speech, was transparently the old Cumann na nGaedheal policy of "Produce cattle for Britain and import all our needs. Give a high standard of living to the minimum population". That is the policy which is transparent in all the speeches during this debate of the more deep dyed-in-the-wool Opposition leaders. We know perfectly well how unwise it would be if sufficient grass were grown and we were left entirely dependent on our exports of cattle to import all the essential and luxury goods we require. But I think that policy is gone forever in this House and that no Deputies on this side or the other side will every try to defend that policy again.

Fianna Fáil were the first people to upset that situation and to put us on the road to increased tillage, increased cultivation of our land and to developing a strong industrial arm which is essential to the success of any industrial policy. The success which Fianna Fáil achieved in their time in that direction is sufficiently demonstrated by the fact that when the Coalition came into being they did not attempt to go back to the old Cumann na nGaedheal policy except in so far as the influence of a few Ministers, notably Deputy Dillon, tried to sway them in that direction.

When I made reference to-day by way of interjection to the growing of grass I was well aware that when we grow grass we should grow better grass and more of it, but we should not turn our minds towards a country mainly of grass, which is what was in the minds of our opponents.

Deputies

Nonsense!

I hope you are serious.

Mr. Coburn

We are black in the face growing more wheat, oats and barley.

Deputy Brennan is in possession.

I hope we are all agreed that we must grow more barley, oats and wheat.

We gave higher prices for them.

If we have succeeded in converting the other side of the House to that policy then I believe we will have taken one definite step forward towards the solution of any problems which concern us in the Vote on Account. It is difficult to see how we are to get increased production and how we are to solve the problems which everyone agrees confront us if we are to hide the problems from the people outside this House.

If it is a crime to mention them and for Ministers to go round telling the people that all is not well, I do not see how that is going to lead to any amelioration of the situation. It is the duty of any Government that is honest with itself and with the people they represent, to put the situation before the country as it exists and then devise whatever means possible to solve those difficulties and provide the necessary solution.

There were repeated references made —I do not think this applies to the debate—to the Government "finding itself in office" as it was put by some people.

Collusion.

I am afraid the cat was let out of the bag completely last night when a Deputy, speaking on the opposite side of the House in reference to the Opposition, said that it was their intention, by fair means or foul, to get to this side of the House.

There must be two cats in the bag as Deputy Cunningham let out another one.

He said there would be no extra taxes.

I would be very glad to believe Deputy Cunningham but a far more serious reference was made by Deputy Cafferky last night when he said it was the intention of the people opposite, by fair means or foul, to come to this side of the House. When one studies the reports of the speeches on the Supplies and Services Bill, we have no difficulty in believing what Deputy Cafferky said. The reference to what happened nine months ago when the inter-Party Government found themselves on the other side of the House and the suggestion that the Government had not got a mandate from the country must amuse everyone. If the Coalition Government was such a perfect set-up why did they go to the country at all?

The Deputy is getting away from the Vote on Account.

Mr. Coburn

The Deputy should go back to the crossroads.

Repeated references were made to the formation of the Government nine months ago, and I claim that I am entitled to make some reply to those nasty references. I do not want to go into detail except to make known what happened nine months ago.

Why should the Deputy bother about that?

I want to let the country know although the people in the country are quite well aware of it already.

They know it quite well.

I think that Fianna Fáil had undoubtedly a mandate from the country to put the Coalition out of existence.

By 100,000.

That does not arise on the Vote on Account.

The Chair is still not allowing me to develop the point. Those Deputies who broke away from the Coalition, went to the country and came back here with the strong support of the people provided sufficient proof that their actions were justified in the eyes of the people of the country. That is indisputably a sufficient mandate.

One-third of the votes.

That is indisputable. However, I will not deal with that matter in detail. In conclusion, I should like to say that the general impression the man in the street must glean from the debate is that we are all agreed that serious problems confront us, serious problems which require solution. It is also agreed that the one way to solve those problems is by increased production in every sphere both in agriculture and in industry. Since it is agreed that we have a serious problem to face, that increased production is the one solution and that we should make every effort to get that increased production, the Opposition, instead of wasting the time of the House, should make a concrete contribution to the debate.

One of the many unfortunate aspects of the financial controversy which has now gone over the greater part of the year is that both the Government and the Opposition have, in many instances, overstated their particular case in an effort to score political advantage. Shortly after the Government was formed we had Government spokesmen stating that the inter-Party Government, during its terms of office, had recklessly dissipated the country's finances and we had an assertion from the other side by Deputy Costello who stated that the country was handed over in a sound, buoyant and healthy condition. The result has been a great deal of confusion here in the House and amongst the people generally because neither case has been finally proved. It has become very difficult for us to grasp all the facts of the situation.

I think that the Government case, from the time the Government was formed up to the publication of the Central Bank Report, was, in the main, such a pessimistic one that the Opposition had little difficulty in convincing the public that there was little difference between some of the Government's views and the recommendations of the Central Bank Report. It was of considerable relief to all in the House and it helped enormously to restore public confidence when the Tánaiste came into the House and spoke on the Supplies and Services Bill repudiating on behalf of the Government the recommendations made in the Central Bank Report.

On this particular occasion, I think that the Government and the Opposition found themselves practically on similar ground in regard to their views on the financial position. However, that unanimity or near unanimity was not to continue very long because, somewhere in the Government Benches, a different view on the financial position was to arise again.

I was here yesterday and I heard the speech of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs in relation to this Vote on Account. I think that some of his statements should have been given much more discussion in the House. I refer to the Irish Press of Thursday, 20th March, 1952, and to the opening part of the speech of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, who stated as follows:—

"So long as retail prices of certain commodities remain very high there might be what is described as regional unemployment and a reduction in retail purchases. As regards unemployment they could not escape from the predicament in which Great Britain found herself, and which had compelled her to reduce her imports by £600,000,000 in order to maintain the value of sterling."

I think that is an extraordinary statement to hear from a member of this House in 1952.

So it is.

I may be unfair to the Minister, but I am bound to say that the impressions I got from the views behind a statement like that go back to 18th century economic ideas. There are 25 or 30 Deputies in this House who represent Dublin constituencies, and does the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs seriously think that we can allow unemployment to arise merely because of the conditions in Great Britain? Even Sir Basil Brooke was prepared to get some money in order to relieve unemployment in the Six Counties. What is all this talk about our political freedom? I think that is an extraordinary statement, and that it is on a par with Marie Antoinette's comments during the French Revolution.

There are certain other points in the speech of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs on the desirability of a long-term plan for agriculture, and with which, I am sure, every one of us in this House will agree. In my view, the most important thing is that we should all accept that there are certain problems and difficulties as far as our sterling position is concerned. I fear that if we attempt to deal with that situation too quickly—if, instead of using corrective measures over a number of years, we attempt to deal with it in one year—we will cause a great deal of hardship in this country and bring about deflation and depression, from which it will take many years to recover. Whether we like it or not, the prosperity of this country and the welfare of its people is, to a very large extent, tied up with the capital development programme. I am as anxious as the Tánaiste or anyone else to see capital investment of a productive nature, and I am anxious to see private enterprise developed as much as possible in this country. However, the fact that such a huge volume of national development is required in this country to maintain a decent standard of living is an indication that that cannot be done by private enterprise. I believe it is a clear indication to any responsible Government that a high standard of capital investment must come before any rapid remedies to improve the financial position in relation to sterling.

It is interesting to study some of the side effects of financial policies in the past which were opposed to the idea of capital development. Take, for instance, the 1930s. Between 1930 and 1940 there was a sum of £10,000,000 in the Hospitals Trust Fund. That money was made available for the building of hospitals in this country. The Ministers for Finance and the financial advisers in those days left that money there, which was invested, during that period of ten years. I suppose it was probably invested in British securities.

All over the world, even in Ceylon and India and Rhodesia and Newfoundland.

The interest on that money was used to pay the deficit on the running of the hospitals of this country. At that time that policy may have appeared to be sound economics: we had that extra £10,000,000 to assist our external position in various ways. What occurred subsequently? That money was not spent in the 1930s. The second World War broke out in 1939. Eventually, that money was spent in the late 1940's and even up to the present day.

They lost £178,000 of it on their investments in six years.

What has been the result of the policy which was pursued in the 1930s by the then Ministers for Finance and their financial advisers? The result is that that money has provided only one-third as many hospital beds in the 1940s and up to the present day as it could have provided in the 1930s. Look at the extra expenditure that was involved. Does the small benefit which accrued in the 1930s to our sterling position justify the delay in the expenditure of that money on the purpose for which it was intended? We must face the fact that hospitals and houses and the other items which make for the national development of this country may be postponed but they can never be avoided. The longer they are postponed the more money they will cost. The views expressed by the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs indicate that he regards capital development in terms of what we can afford after we have improved our sterling position. I feel that the majority of the people of this House strongly disagree with those views and that the majority of the Irish people disagree with them also.

Another question of tremendous importance and in which, as a Dublin Deputy, I am particularly interested —and which, I suggest, is relevant on this discussion on capital investment— is the housing problem. The housing department of the Dublin Corporation carry an extremely big capital development programme. Only a little over 3/- of the current rate is spent on housing and the almost whole programme is financed out of moneys advanced by the banks. When that housing drive was at its peak over 4,000 men were employed by the Dublin Corporation on the building of those houses. Last December that figure was down to 2,800 men. I am very glad to say that it has improved a little though not nearly as much as it should.

We are told that we shall be 1,000 houses down on our 1953 programme. Here is the importance of capital development. Here is something which we cannot avoid. Some of our people are still living in Dublin tenements and the requirement for a Dublin Corporation house is that a family of six is living in one room. Do not tell me that that situation is justifiable especially with rising unemployment in the city. Do not tell me that that situation is desirable with the slum clearance such as has to be faced in Dublin City—and the quicker it is faced the cheaper it will be and the healthier our people will be. Do not tell me that, in these circumstances, it is justifiable that money should not be spent to increase our housing. For every house built in Dublin City anything from one and a half to two men are employed per annum. One thousand houses built mean the employment of 2,000 men. On current prices, the figures involved in the building of these 1,000 houses are in the region of £1,750,000. I have drawn attention, by way of parliamentary questions, to this state of affairs. I hope that provision will be made to attend to this problem. I am in complete agreement with the Tánaiste, Deputy Lemass, when he points out that we must be very clear in our minds as to what is genuine capital development and as to what national expenditure should be met out of taxation.

I notice that a number of Deputies on the Fine Gael Benches seem to imply that, committed, as they are like the rest of us, to improved social services and health services and the capital development programme, it is possible for the country to carry out that programme without increased taxation. It is obvious that that is untrue. In all circumstances, we must avoid the use of money raised by way of national loan or by repatriation to meet the cost of budgetary deficits. I do not like the idea of increased taxation any more than anybody else but I think that where we are bringing forward schemes for improved social services and health services it is our duty to make it clear to the public that these schemes will cost a great deal of money and how much of the cost of these schemes will have to be met out of taxation.

I am a new Deputy in this House, and I am not familiar with many of these problems. Perhaps it seems unbecoming that I should attempt to lecture on these matters. Although I may not have the experience which many Deputies have of long membership of this House perhaps I am closer to the opinion of the younger generation in this country than many members of this House. The young people are vitally interested in our economic problems, in housing, employment and national development.

There is some justification for the remarks of the Opposition that there may be at times conflict in Fianna Fáil about the economic position, but as an Independent Deputy I would like to give them one word of advice. If they are to pursue the economic views put forward by the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, they are taking the shortest road to the political wilderness. We can improve our financial position, but we must be clear as to what is genuine taxation and what is capital investment. A continuation and, indeed, a considerable increase in the capital investment programme over what the last Government carried out will have to be faced in the national interest. The Tánaiste has said it may be difficult to raise that money and in some of his speeches he said it might be necessary to resort to taxation to find some of it. I hope that is not the case. Our financial position should be improved, not in one, hard austerity Budget, but by gradual attempts to improve our position over a number of years. An austerity Budget would have repercussions which it would take many years to correct.

Listening to the debate over the last three days, I felt it was like trying to solve a crossword puzzle. One would wonder where the truth lay. We had many divergent speeches, which left one bewildered. We have been hearing the same story for 15 years or more, year in and year out. Everyone has been talking about agriculture, but very few of those who spoke about it ever grew a head of cabbage or put down a potato. They are all saying that agriculture is the salvation of Ireland, but not one of the hardy annuals of the soil, we who grow the crops, got a chance to speak until now. We had to take a back seat and sit quiet while the big guns thundered forth.

We have problems galore, but no crisis. We have ever-rising costs, and maybe we have not seen the end of them yet. We have a poor return for our endeavours. We back benchers see a picture which maybe is not the one the front benchers see, that this country's problems are, most of them, unreal. There is too much fake and make-believe. The salvation of our country lies in the soil, in the hills and valleys, the small and middle-class men and country workers; but nothing is done about them. The big guns have thundered, but from having been a good while in this House I am satisfied that there is a city mentality in all our front benchers. They give lip service to agriculture, but in Labour, Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and others, it is all a city mentality. The big leaders talk about agriculture with a city mind, as they were not born, bred and reared in agriculture. Unfortunately for us, we country gombeens as we are called, we may not have the education or abilities to put forward the solutions, but in the back of our minds we know what is wrong, and we would like to be able to put the solution across to the front benches. We do not want to be listening for 12 or 20 years to the same talk, and then be told that this is "a grand little country," that it is "a rich and rare land," and again be told after 30 years that it is down and out, that it is bankrupt, that unemployment cannot be stopped and there is under-production. Surely after 30 years of native government there must be some solution.

I do not believe we are down and out. We are a comfortable, happy little country, able to solve all our problems —and they are not big ones—if we tackle them in the right way. We have had a big try-out over 30 years. Agriculture is the key to all our troubles and the industrial development over the 30 years has done an immense amount of harm to agriculture. While we are boosting and fostering industries, we have been strangling agriculture. A tariff wall has been put around industry, that industry might be built up. We have a fine happy community of Irish industrialists who have been allowed to pay from £5 to £10 a week to employees, while we farmers who had the key to the problem cannot pay 50/- or £3 to labouring men to produce food for man and beast and for export. Industry has been put where it should not be. Agriculture should be the focal point and if men look for a job they should be looking to the land instead of to the factories. We have had a big trek to the cities and towns—aye, and across the water—away from the land to places where big wages and ease of life could be found. We must correct that and put agriculture in the foremost position as the most important item in our outlook. Agriculture must get better wages than industry, whether tariffed or non-tariffed industry. We have had and will have emigration. I have always held that the rushed industrial development that we had here was a curse. Fianna Fáil have been boasting about the thousands of factories they built behind a big tariff wall and about all the comforts and facilities provided and the wages paid. They could not say the same thing about agriculture, because Fianna Fáil never knew the first thing about agriculture and never cared about it. The first thing they did in 1932 was to stab the farmers in the back with a rotten, damned economic war which left the country with a big sore which has not healed yet. The solution to our problem lies in giving agriculture the same facilities and privileges as are given to industry, in seeing that the labouring agriculturist gets a decent wage and that the farmer gets a decent price for his produce, whether it be beet, wheat, oats, barley, grass or cattle. If he gets that price he will be able to carry the load; and agriculture can carry double the load it has at present if it is harnessed to the task and if the farmers can see that the Government of the day will give them justice. That is all the farmer wants—justice—and he wants no privileges.

Emigration is a bleeding sore and, until we are able to make some inroads on it, to hold these people so as to build up our little country, we certainly will not make much progress. Financial freedom is needed as much as national freedom. If we do not get financial control, we will be told that we are subject to outside forces.

It is the duty of the Government to face the problems openly and in a manly fashion. There are many causes of our troubles. The biggest cause is the split between the two big Parties. Until that split is healed, and we can shake hands across the House and form a new national front, there can be no progress. We should forget the past and determine to free our land, to make it worthy of the Irish people. There is no reason why we should not do that.

There has been a false political make-up for over 25 years. Many of the Fianna Fáil Party are good men, but they are trying to build around one man and trying to put a halo on him, to make him a national hero and to make out that everyone else is a renegade and a traitor. If you try to build up around one man, you will smash the country. None of us can live for ever, and, when we pass away, someone else must take our place. I would ask Fianna Fáil to cut out their bitterness and hatred and realise that the destiny of the country is in all our hands. We should strive for freedom for the entire country. One of our main problems is Partition. Partition has done endless harm, because it has built up cliques of all kinds.

It does not arise on this Vote.

I take it that it does because Partition is the cause of most of our troubles and I think it should be referred to. Fianna Fáil ought to examine their conscience. They should realise that every type of hook or crook, chancer or bester lines himself up behind the Fianna Fáil Party. I am not blaming the Fianna Fáil Party for that but there must be something rotten and something wrong when all these types will fall in behind them. I would like to see Fianna Fáil shaking off that type of person. The country is full of get-rich-quicks, hooks and crooks, who are slipping it across honest men. The simple country farmer and the worker are neglected.

Money matters may be serious but they are not all-important. The spirit of the people is far more important than finance. As far as national spirit is concerned, we have reached the lowest ebb that has been reached for 40 years. If we could resurrect the spirit of the people we would overcome our difficulties. We should try to harness our young boys and girls to the task of national regeneration. We are not trying to show them the glories of 30 to 35 years ago. We are not teaching them that they have a duty to their country. All they know is how to get a passport and how to get out of this country as quickly as possible. That is an unfortunate state of affairs. I hate to think of it. Here we are crying about financial difficulties while we are allowing the key to the problem, our young boys and girls, to emigrate.

The inter-Party Government brought about a reunion of four or five groups and formed a Government. They made every effort to get the fifth group, Fianna Fáil, to come in with them and to take their rightful place in the formation of a national Government. Fianna Fáil did not see fit to do that. That is their business. If they had come in, there would have been a reunion of all the national forces and we could have talked business. Now we are as far away from each other as we were for the last 30 years. I hope that some day something will happen that will bring us together because this country is not getting the build-up that she is entitled to. This would be a strong little country if it got a chance.

The inter-Party Government had a peaceful programme. They allayed all the old political differences and got down to work. They tried to provide employment so as to stem emigration. They had schemes for land reclamation, drainage, afforestation. They made an effort to end the old bitternesses. They opened the jail gates and did not ask any prisoner to sign a bond. His word was his bond. Not one of those men broke his word and, thanks be to God, the jail gates are open still and there is no occasion to imprison anyone. If it were only for that, the inter-Party Government would have been justified.

We broke up the old cliques and intrigues. We had to do it in spite of bitter opposition from Fianna Fáil. I am sorry to say that it was bitter opposition. We stemmed emigration. Never was emigration at a lower ebb in the 30 years of native government. Never before had we almost full employment. There were two or three increases in wages and provision was made for workers' holidays.

We had stockpiling in the event of war. Now we are told that stockpiling was the cause of all our troubles. If there is trouble as a result of stockpiling and if there are men overloaded with stocks, it is the duty of the Minister for Finance to give them a chance. If their finances are tied up in stocks, the Minister should come to their relief.

Agriculture was the neglected child of Fianna Fáil. It was given its place in our programme. We had a plan and we got going. We had a parish plan but Fianna Fáil made sure that that parish plan would die. The Minister for Agriculture was not able to put it into full effect. If that parish plan were put into full effect we could double production. Agriculture is as neglected as it can be. We have committees of agriculture or committees which are called committees of agriculture. They are worse than useless.

We have good officers but they are not harnessed to their task and not able to do their work, because there is no link with the people. If we could combine three or four parishes and link these officers with them to see that credit and machinery would be available for farmers there would be no need to argue about beet or wheat because the people would grow them. We should also do what is very badly needed, that is, step up all the uneconomic units we have. We have tens of thousands of farms of five, six and seven acres which are no good to anybody. These farmers are trying to get work on the roads and in pits, and their living is nothing but a miserable existence. I suggest that we should step up these units to a level of 25 or 30 acres and have a system of internal migration. We have migration from the west of Ireland for the relief of congestion, but I want to see internal migration all over the Midlands, where there is just as much congestion. We would then have balanced farmers who would make for a balanced economy and so solve our problems. We have many problems but there is a solution for them all. There is no crisis and no need to talk of a crisis. We have the land; we have the people; and we have the finance; and we can face our task which will not be a very big one. We have faced bigger problems and solved them and I am satisfied that if we put agriculture in as favourable a position as that in which we have put industry over the past 20 years we will have solved almost all our problems.

I am not against industrial development, but I want to see it on a balanced basis. I do not want to see industrial development at the expense of agriculture. Fianna Fáil may have to their credit many industrial enterprises, but I want them to realise that, in the early stages of their industrial drive, they let every type of man into industry, men from far and near, Jew and gentile, who plunged in while the going was good. They got the money of the Irish people, and mainly of the Irish agriculturist, and before two or three years had elapsed, you could see the remnants of the huts they had erected and called Irish industries. They had skipped, and tens of thousands of pounds had gone down the drain in that so-called industrial advance. If we are going to have industry, we must plan it and we must see to it that it is industry which suits the people and that the people in control are not in it merely for what they can get out of it. Too much money was wasted in that development and too many got rich overnight.

What is the position of agriculture? We have the worker in agriculture getting £3 or £4 a week, while the man in town gets £7 or £8 per week, and then we are told we must make agriculture prosperous. What have we left in the country side but a few old bachelor labourers, some between 60 and 70 years of age, and these are what the Irish farmer has to call on in his efforts to increase production. Until we solve that problem, we may give up talking about tillage, because the farmers will sow grass to their hall-doors—and they are damned right to do it—if this Parliament does not give them the wherewithal to have a balanced economy. They will sow beet and wheat and every other cereal, if it pays them, and they will fill their haggards with pigs and poultry and flood the market with eggs, if we give them a chance, but we are not giving it to them.

We Irish farmers have got a raw deal, and it is up to the farmer Deputies here, no matter on which side they sit, to speak up. We see, week in and week out, advertisements in the local papers for the sale of 20, 30 and 40 acres, and when the 300 or 400 acre man sells, a big Englishman, Jew or Indian steps in to buy. He starts a so-called stud farm, and everybody bows and scrapes. He has it going for three years and then we find on that farm one old brood mare and 60, 80 and 100 white-headed bullocks, and the stud farm of yesterday is the ranch of to-day. I see in my own county of royal Meath how men slipped it across the Fianna Fáil Government, men who came in as magnates, industrialists and stud farmers, who to-day are graziers and nothing more. I want to see them torn up by the roots because we were 50 years trying to get rid of that type of thing. The Irish grazier——

What has this got to do with the Vote on Account?

It has a lot to do with it because it is there that our finances are being squandered. I want to see that land given to contented middle-class farmers who will give a return to the nation and who will not invest their money abroad but will invest it in their Irish homesteads.

The first problem the House should get down to is this issue of whether we have a crisis or have not a crisis. Evidently we cannot get agreement on the Opposition Benches with regard to this issue because, whereas Deputy Costello and, I think, Deputy Mulcahy called it a problem, other Fine Gael speakers realised that there is something serious to be met. Deputy Dillon says that all is well and that things were never better and, particularly, were never better for Irish agriculture.

What does Deputy Moran say?

It would be a good thing if the Opposition leaders at least could make up their minds on this issue.

If Ministers could say whether it is deflation or inflation we would get along more quickly.

Deputy Moran must be allowed to make his own speech.

Deputy Moran is making our speeches. He is declining to say anything on his own behalf.

That is not a point of order.

Is Deputy Moran not entitled to make his speech without interruptions from Deputy Mulcahy?

We want him to make his speech.

If I could get intelligent interruptions from Deputy Mulcahy, even on a question of a point of order, I should not mind.

May I draw your attention to the fact that there is not a House present?

Perhaps Deputy Moran would move to report progress.

I move to report progress.

Is it in order to move to report progress, if there is not a House?

Progress reported.
The Dáil adjourned at 5 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, March 25th, 1952.
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