Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 2 Apr 1952

Vol. 130 No. 8

Resolution No. 4—Customs and Excise. - Hydrocarbon Oil.

Mr. MacEntee

I move:—

(1) That the duty of customs imposed by Section 21 of the Finance Act, 1935 (No. 28 of 1935), shall, in respect of hydrocarbon oil, chargeable with that duty, be charged, levied and paid, as on and from the 3rd day of April, 1952, at the rate of 1/8 the gallon in lieu of the rate now chargeable by virtue of sub-section (1) of Section 8 of the Finance Act, 1951 (No. 15 of 1951).

(2) That the rebate allowable under sub-section (2) of Section 21 of the Finance Act, 1935, shall, in respect of hydrocarbon oil on which such rebate is allowable, be allowed, as on and from the 3rd day of April, 1952, at the rate of 1/8 the gallon in lieu of the rate now allowable by virtue of sub-section (2) of Section 8 of the Finance Act, 1951.

(3) That the duty of excise imposed by Section 21 of the Finance Act, 1935, shall, in respect of hydrocarbon oil chargeable with that duty, which is sent out, on or for sale or otherwise, from the premises of the manufacturer thereof on or after the 3rd day of April, 1952, or is used by such manufacturer on or after that date for any purpose other than the manufacture or production of hydrocarbon oil, be charged, levied and paid at the rate of 1/6 the gallon in lieu of the rate now chargeable by virtue of sub-section (3) of Section 8 of the Finance Act, 1951.

(4) That the rebate allowable under sub-section (4) of Section 21 of the Finance Act, 1935, shall, in respect of hydrocarbon oil on which such rebate is allowable and on which the excise this Resolution was paid at the rate of 1/6 the gallon be allowed at the rate of 1/6 the gallon in lieu of the rate now allowable by virtue of sub-section (4) of Section 8 of the Finance Act, 1951.

(5) It is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1927 (No. 7 of 1927).

I think we can get back now to the topic we were discussing on motion No. 3. The scope of this duty includes oil such as crude mineral oil, crude oil, diesel oil, gas oil, kerosene, turpentine and so on. In view of the provisions for a rebate in paragraph 2, which applies in fact only to oil intended for propelling motor vehicles, that is to say, to diesel oil, tractors are not regarded as motor vehicles according to the law, and, therefore, this duty does not apply either to tractor vaporising oil or to oil for use in tractors.

Mr. Dillon

I am obliged to the Minister, but just before he came in some Deputy said there are two voices in this House, whichever one one wishes to believe. I wish to refer to a matter raised before, namely, Córas Iompair Éireann. The Minister for Finance has just told us that if Córas Iompair Éireann has any levy made upon it as a result of the increase in taxation in diesel oil, he foresees that it can make no material difference, as the deficiency on their account is already so large that he feels he will have to pay it at the end of whatever this costs in subsidy from the Exchequer. My recollection is that the Minister for Industry and Commerce, on the eve of the Christmas Adjournment, said he had sent for the board of Córas Iompair Éireann and said to them: "Now is the time when we have to face the fact that, whatever sacrifices are called for, Córas Iompair Éireann must balance its budget. It must not become a permanent liability on the country."

Which story is true? Is this tax on diesel oil going to be paid out of the Treasury by way of subsidy or is it going to fall on the rates chargeable by Córas Iompair Éireann under the general directions which the Minister for Industry and Commerce told us he had given to Córas Iompair Éireann on behalf of the Government? If the Minister for Industry and Commerce speaks for the Government, does this mean that fares must go up on the buses as a result of this tax? If the Minister for Finance speaks for the Government, so far as the fare-paying passengers of Córas Iompair Éireann are concerned, this Resolution can be ignored, for he has undertaken to meet whatever charge comes in course of payment on the basis of this tax out of the Exchequer. Surely it is not being unreasonable or pernickety when the Tánaiste says one thing and the Minister for Finance says diametrically the opposite, to ask which of them is speaking the Government's mind, so that we may determine whether this Resolution is innocuous or burdensome on that section of the community which is least able to bear it?

Mr. Lemass

The Deputy is mixing up two years. It was last year that Córas Iompair Éireann were told that they would have to increase their charges or reduce their expenditure so as to balance their accounts. They were told that by Deputy McGilligan. Last year no provision was made for any subsidies. This year £1,300,000 is being provided. They were told to try to work within that limit of subsidy on the basis of estimates of revenue and expenditure made at the beginning of the year. If their costs rise in the course of the year, it will not be possible to do so.

Mr. Dillon

But the Minister for Finance proposes to say to the fare-paying passengers that this tax will not be passed on.

Mr. Lemass

That is not a simple question. Córas Iompair Éireann are going to have a hard job to keep their losses within the £1,300,000 subsidy. In order to do that they will have to effect any modification in charges which is practicable and achieve any economies that are possible. They would have to do that irrespective of any increase in taxation.

Mr. Dillon

Observe what the Miniister for Finance said. The Tánaiste now says: "My judgment is that doing their level best it will put them to the pin of their collar to keep inside the ceiling fixed for them before this tax was ever adumbrated." Therefore, doing their best they will have to pass this tax on to the fare-paying passengers. The Minister for Finance has however just told this House that they may safely pass this Resolution in the assurance that the passenger coming from Crumlin or Kimmage will not have to pay any part of it for he says "at the end of the year I will pay the deficit."

Mr. Lemass

The Minister for Finance is quite correct.

Mr. Dillon

Did I not understand the Tánaiste to say that doing their best it will put them to the pin of their collar to pay their way, even before this tax is imposed.

Mr. Lemass

Doing their best may involve some adjustment of fares.

Mr. Dillon

The Tánaiste says: "My judgment is that the ceiling of subsidy which I propose for Córas Iompair Éireann for the coming year will barely enable them to avoid increasing their charges."

Mr. Lemass

I never said that.

Mr. Dillon

"They cannot avoid increasing charges under my ceiling unless they exercise every efficiency."

Mr. Lemass

I have not said that. On the contrary, I will expect them to charge what the traffic will bear and to effect whatever economies are possible. Doing both these things, they will still find it difficult enough to work within the subsidy.

Mr. Dillon

Look at the position before this Resolution came before the House. Doing their level best to keep within the subsidy, and doing their best to achieve whatever economies are possible, and perhaps increasing the fares by a trifle it may still not be possible to keep within the limit of the subsidy. If this charge under Resolution No. 4 is passed by the House, the House must pass it in the knowledge that further steps will have to be taken to meet any additional deficits as they have done everything by way of securing efficiency, as they have already done everything to cut down costs, and the only further course open to them, if there is a deficit, is a further increase in fares.

Mr. Lemass

It may not be a further increase in the charges which the traffic will bear. It may mean a further increase in the subsidy.

Mr. Dillon

In the three minutes before the Tánaiste came into the House, Deputy Cowan was twittering in the background, and Deputy Dr. ffrench-O'Carroll, who represents the area, was also present, when the question was put: will the charge arising from the Resolution fall ultimately on the fare-paying passengers of Córas Iompair Éireann coming from Crumlin and Kimmage?

Mr. Lemass

No, it will not.

Mr. Dillon

Where is the money going to be got if the Tánaiste has told Córas Iompair Éireann that they must keep within the ceiling he has fixed, and if the present position, without any addition to the cost of diesel oil, means that they will find it very difficult to live within that ceiling? Where is the money going to come from?

Mr. MacEntee

How many times must Deputy Dillon make the same speech?

Mr. Dillon

That is a simple question. If my judgment is correct, and I have been listening to parliamentary procedure for 30 years, the Minister for Finance and the Tánaiste are saying diametrically the opposite.

Mr. Lemass

They are saying exactly the same thing, but the Deputy does not understand us. I shall say it in one word if the Deputy wants it.

Mr. Dillon

If the Minister can say it in one syllable or even polysyllabically in the way that any rational human being can understand him, I shall give way.

Mr. Morrissey

Before the Minister replies may I put this question? Am I right in assuming that when this £1,300,000 was required for Córas Iompair Éireann for the current year, the additional charge which is going to be imposed by the Resolution was not taken into consideration?

Mr. Lemass

Of course not.

Mr. Morrissey

It is in addition to the £1,300,000. It is a new charge; therefore we have got to assume that it must be met in either of two ways, either by increasing the fares or rates or by getting a further increase in the subsidy from the Government. On that may I put this further point? If this additional charge is going to be met by the Government out of revenue to subsidise Córas Iompair Éireann, does that mean that the Government is going to put Córas Iompair Éireann in a preferential position vis-á-vis the ordinary citizen who will be affected by this Resolution?

Mr. Lemass

They are in a preferential position with their subsidies.

Mr. Morrissey

The Minister knows quite well what I mean. We have got one point perfectly clear, that when the figure of £1,300,000 was arrived at there was not under consideration— there could not have been—this additional charge under Resolution No. 4. Therefore, that is an additional charge, and it will have to be met in either of two ways. I want to submit to the Minister for Industry and Commerce and to the Minister for Finance that, if this additional charge imposed on Córas Iompair Éireann by Resolution No. 4. is going to be met out of Government funds that, in effect—I am not going into the merits of it—is putting Córas Iompair Éireann in a preferential position vis-á-vis the ordinary citizens of the country who have to use the type of oil covered by this Resolution.

Mr. MacEntee

What type of oil is that?

Mr. Lemass

They are in a preferential position with their subsidies.

Mr. Davin

When the Minister for Industry and Commerce was replying to a discussion here in mid-December on a Supplementary Estimate for Córas Iompair Éireann—a subsidy for Córas Iompair Éireann — he admitted that he met members of the board of Córas Iompair Éireann and told them that the policy of his Government was that they should pay their way.

Mr. Lemass

That was the policy of the last Government, too.

Mr. Davin

The last Government, through the Minister's predecessor, gave a definite undertaking in this House that there would be no staff dismissed from Córas Iompair Éireann when the nationalised scheme came into operation. The Minister, at any rate, knows this, but he denied it the other day, that an economy commission has been set up and is scouring every hole and corner and every department in Córas Iompair Éireann——

Mr. MacEntee

On a point of order, are we discussing a subsidy to Córas Iompair Éireann or the management of Córas Iompair Éireann?

Mr. Davin

I am putting this to the Minister for Industry and Commerce. If this resolution is going to increase the expenditure of Córas Iompair Éireann, does not that automatically mean that it must be collected from the people who use the passenger and road freight services of that company?

Mr. Byrne

I want to remind the Minister for Industry and Commerce that, shortly before he came into the House, Deputy MacBride put a simple question to the Minister for Finance three times. The question was would this Resolution before the House, if carried, mean an increase in bus fares?

Mr. Lemass

Obviously not. What is the good of talking in that strain about a company which is losing money at the rate of £1,500,000 a year which the taxpayer has to provide?

Mr. Byrne

Will the Minister for Industry and Commerce give us a guarantee that if Córas Iompair Éireann make an application to increase their fares on the Dublin public he will be in a position to refuse it?

Mr. Lemass

The Deputy is wrong. Under the Act ——

Mr. Dillon

Sit down! Deputy Byrne is in possession.

Mr. Lemass

He is wrong and I want to put him right.

Mr. Byrne

The Dublin Corporation is building houses three, four and five miles outside the city. They are sending a big part of the population of Dublin—working class people—out to those added areas. The fares are 3d. now and in some cases 4d. The children have to come back in thousands to schools in the city. That means, on the average, 10/-, 11/- or 12/- a week in bus fares for those people who have accepted the new high rents in the added areas. All that I am asking is this simple question. If this Resolution dealing with oil which has been proposed by the Minister for Finance comes into effect, will the Minister for Industry and Commerce personally see that Córas Iompair Éireann will not increase their bus fares in order to meet the charge under this Resolution?

Mr. Lemass

Under the Transport Act, for which the Deputy voted, Córas Iompair Éireann can charge anything they like. They do not even have to tell me they are doing it, much less get my consent. Is that clear? They do not have to get my consent. That is what the Act says. The Deputy voted for the Act and I voted against it. As far as increasing fares is concerned, if they could increase fares without losing revenue now they should do it, because they have, obviously. got to keep down their own losses. If they cannot do that, there is going to be unemployment amongst their staff.

Mr. Sweetman

The Tánaiste has stated that the loss on Córas Iompair Éireann, before the imposition of this additional tax on diesel oil, was going to be, in the financial year, £1,300,000.

Mr. Lemass

I said they were being told to try and keep within that limit.

Mr. Sweetman

The loss is going to be £1,300,000. If we pass this resolution, which is going to add on 4d. a gallon to all diesel oil used by Córas Iompair Éireann, then that additional 4d. will have to be found somewhere. Either it will be found, to take the Tánaiste's words, by increasing fares, or it will have to be found by an increase in the subsidy. It will have to be met in either one or two of these ways. I cannot see any other way in which it can be found.

The Minister for Finance has circulated a sheet, on which he has shown all the variations of the coming year in respect of the Book of Estimates that has already been circulated. Under Vote No. 51, in the Book of Estimates, there is included for Córas Iompair Éireann only a sum of £1,300,000. Therefore, that means that if this charge is going to be paid for out of the subsidy that was a dishonest sheet for the Minister to circulate.

Mr. Lemass

The policy of the present Government is like the policy of the previous Government, to get Córas Iompair Éireann back on to a paying basis if we can. We do not think it will be able to do that this year. We are asking them to keep the loss to £1,300,000. That is a substantial sum of money. If they cannot succeed in doing that on the charges they are now making that will mean an increased subsidy.

Mr. Dillon

Does not that create this situation? Córas Iompair Éireann knows its ceiling. It has been warned that is all it is going to get, and that it is its duty to keep within it. If it wants a further subsidy it must, naturally, come to the Government and render an account and give reasons as to why it asks the Government to give it further sums of money. It is unthinkable that, on a request from the board of Córas Iompair Éireann, and without an explanation, the Government would give them another £250,000. Deputy Byrne has pointed out that he is asking the two Ministers to give him an undertaking that, wherever the money comes from, they will not allow Córas Iompair Éireann to levy it on the passengers of the company. The Minister for Industry and Commerce says: "I have got nothing to do with that; they can change their fares every other day."

Mr. Lemass

They are obliged to work to a balance.

Mr. Dillon

Surely, if they scooped up £1,300,000, and if this charge for diesel oil falls to be met, they have two courses open to them. They can either leave the fares where they are and come to the Government at the end of the year and say: "We have got your £1,300,000 and we want another £200,000 which is less than your diesel oil tax." At that stage, have not the Minister for Finance and the Tánaiste the right to say to Córas Iompair Éireann: "We have no power under the statute to control your operations, but if you come to us and ask us to sponsor in Dáil Éireann a Supplementary Estimate for £200,000, over and above what you have already got, we have the right to ask what steps you have taken to bring your losses beneath our ceiling"?

If it were open to Córas Iompair Éireann to bring the loss above the ceiling by not raising fares, would not the two Ministers have the right to say to Córas Iompair Éireann: "Before we seek a Supplementary Estimate you must raise your fares"? All that Deputy Byrne asked was, if that contingency arises, have we the undertaking of the two Ministers that they will say to Córas Iompair Éireann: "We do not require you to resort to that expedient"?

Mr. Lemass

Of course not.

Mr. Dillon

The Tánaiste now says: "Of course not. If Córas Iompair Éireann come to us with that plea we will tell them to raise the fares, if raising the fares will increase their revenue." But, believe it not, before the Tánaiste came into the House the Minister for Finance pledged his word——

Mr. MacEntee

On a point of order. Deputy Dillon has continuously misrepresented me since the debate on this Resolution started. I gave no pledge. I merely pointed out how ridiculous Deputy MacBride's and Deputy Dillon's arguments were.

Mr. Dillon

Let the Minister for Finance have the fullest liberty to try to mend his hand. But here is the position. A question was put from this side of the House to the Minister: "Need we be apprehensive or in doubt as to where the charge will fall for this tax? Can it fall on the fare-paying passengers?"

Mr. MacEntee

I must protest against Deputy Dillon's deliberate misrepresentation. What I was asked by Deputy MacBride was: had I any consultation with Córas Iompair Éireann before I imposed the tax?

Mr. Dillon

I am concerned with the question I asked and with the answer I have got. The question I asked was: where is the money going to be found by Córas Iompair Éireann to meet the extra cost of the diesel oil they use in their buses imposed upon them by Resolution No. 4? Deputy Byrne intervened to get an assurance that it would not fall on the fare-paying passengers around Dublin. I referred to Deputy Dr. ffrench-O'Carroll, Deputy Dr. Browne and Deputy Cowan, and I said I understood that they were satisfied in their minds that the fare-paying passengers will not have to discharge it. It may be that I did the Minister an injustice. I understood him to rise and say: "I think it is a question of academic interest, inasmuch as if there be a deficiency at the end of the year I have got to meet it." That is what he said.

Mr. MacEntee

I protest against Deputy Dillon's putting into my mouth——

Mr. Dillon

Now we have pinned his hand to the table.

Mr. MacEntee

That is an old cliché of Deputy Dillon's. I have not intervened in the debate on this Resolution except to correct Deputy Dillon's misrepresentations. Deputy Dillon thinks that we are still on Resolution No. 3. We are now on Resolution No. 4.

Mr. Dillon

I am discussing Resolution No. 4, which relates to diesel oil, and I am going to follow this diesel oil question up until I get the truth. I am going to argue it for an hour until I get the truth. I do not believe there is an honest Deputy who did not draw from the Minister's airy interjection the clear implication that he said the Treasury was responsible for any deficit. I was about to make the point: is this a Resolution that is, in effect, a tax on the Treasury? Is there a Deputy who did not get the impression from the Minister that the argument about the burden of this tax was academic because he will have to foot the bill at the end of the year? If he wants to withdraw that, surely he is bound to say to Deputy Byrne: "Resolution No. 4 means that bus fares must go up to the highest penny that the traffic will bear in Cork and Dublin, and the only thing that will keep them down is the law of diminishing returns. Only when they have satisfied my colleague, the Tánaiste, that if they raise them the yield will decline, will that be the limit above which the fares will not rise." If the Minister says that honestly, at least we will know where we are.

Until I persuaded the Tánaiste to refrain from adjourning to his office, as he was about to do, I bet you 1/- we would not have got one-fifth as much out of the Minister for Finance as we may have got in the way of information. The Tánaiste has a fine brazen face and a skin as tough as a rhinoceros. The other little man is a Tetrazinni and gets excited and upset.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy should get back to the Resolution.

Mr. Dillon

These graceful tributes to the Tánaiste and the Minister are not misplaced after so much laborious work this afternoon. But at the moment we want the truth whatever it is. When you give it to us we will exercise our right as Deputies to vote on the merits of the question as they are truly stated and ascertained.

Mr. Lemass

Last year my predecessor, on the direction of Deputy McGilligan, then Minister for Finance, instructed Córas Iompair Éireann to increase their rates and charges or to cut down expenditure so that they would lose nothing on the year. They were instructed to increase their rates and charges to the limit which the traffic would bear and, on the expectation that they should so increase them as to wipe out the whole of the loss, no provision was made in the Estimates or in the Budget of last year for a subsidy to Córas Iompair Éireann. When I came into office I found that they had not increased their rates and charges as directed. The general election was coming and there would be political disadvantages to the Coalition Government if that direction were carried out. Therefore it was postponed until after the election. At that time Córas Iompair Éireann were losing money heavily and I said to them that it was the policy of the new Government, as it was the policy of the old one, that Córas Iompair Éireann should so conduct their affairs as to avoid the necessity for a subsidy and they went away and increased the rates and charges last September or October to what they said was the maximum that the traffic would bear. There they are now.

It is quite obvious that, unless there has been some change in the circumstances, they cannot increase them further without losing money and, therefore, if there is to be an adjustment in their position it has got to be by reorganisation and the introduction of methods of working that will reduce expenditure. It may be possible for them to adjust some of their charges to get in more money. If they can, clearly they can avoid some of the economies which will be otherwise necessary for them. So far as we are concerned, we recognise that they are going to lose money this year. We are not trying to fake the Budget by assuming that they will not. We are making a provision of £1,300,000 against that loss. It is doubtful if they will be able to keep within that limit. I can see that. Clearly, therefore, any additional imposition of the kind involved here makes no difference. If they can increase their charges to keep within that figure, they will do it. If they cannot increase their charges to keep within that figure, then they cannot do it and any additional cost they incur by reason of this charge will ultimately fall upon the subsidy.

Mr. Morrissey

In view of the fact, as the Tánaiste stated, that there is a statutory obligation on Córas Iompair Éireann to make every effort to pay their way, is it not quite obvious that Córas Iompair Éireann will as a result of this additional imposition have to increase their charges?

Mr. Lemass

Does not the Deputy see that they are at least £1,300,000 away from paying their way? Therefore, an additional imposition of this kind does not make any difference to their position.

Mr. Morrissey

The Minister would be the first, and properly so, to challenge the board and say that they were not doing their duty, if they just took the easy way and said to the Government that they should meet the additional imposition by way of subsidy. The Minister will be the first to challenge that sort of approach. The board is under an obligation to try to obtain from the public using their services this additional amount as well as every other amount.

Mr. Lemass

£1,300,000 is less than for last year. They lost £1,800,000 last year.

Mr. Morrissey

The Minister's efforts to try to extricate his colleague are skilful, as usual. The fact of the matter is that his colleague was trying to mislead the House. There is no doubt whatever in anybody's mind that under express direction—which I do not doubt that they have the power to give—from the Government the board of Córas Iompair Éireann must endeavour to recover this additional amount from the people who use their services.

Mr. MacEntee

That is absurd.

Mr. Lemass

They are losing £1,300,000.

Mr. Corry

I want to know what provision was made on last year's Budget for Córas Iompair Éireann losses.

Mr. Lemass

None.

Mr. Corry

None? Did any of those gentlemen over there who were in the Cabinet at that time believe that Córas Iompair Éireann were going to pay their way last year?

Mr. Rooney

Yes.

Mr. Corry

You did, and you were only wrong to the extent of £1,800,000. Despite the increases that were put on passengers and freight in the meantime, you were only £1,750,000 out.

Mr. Dillon

What has this got to do with the Resolution?

Mr. Corry

Deputy Dillon comes in here with his brazen face. After knowing last year that he was being dishonest with the people of this country with regard to that item alone, to the extent of close on £2,000,000, he comes in here with his brazen face, demanding to know how this, that and the other thing are concerned with this Resolution. I can make a certain allowance for foolishness, but I cannot make any allowance for the acrobatic performance I have witnessed here from Deputy Dillon for the last three-quarters of an hour. I suggest he should join Duffy's Circus or some concern like that. He certainly would take a prize there.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is getting away from the discussion of the Resolution.

Mr. Corry

In addition to clearing up £1,300,000 for estimated Córas Iompair Éireann losses this year, we also had to ask the public to find £1,800,000 which the Deputy forgot to ask last year. That is the position. However, that does not bother Deputy Davin or the financial geniuses who had control of the country for the past three years. One would think it would be far better to find out where we are going to get that money than to follow Deputy Dillon's line and say: "We do not know where we are going to expend it." Now, you do not know how you are going to find it.

Mr. Dillon

Have we now reached the position that the Tánaiste and the Minister for Finance certify to the House——

Mr. MacEntee

I do nothing of the sort, but somebody ought to be certified.

Mr. Dillon

We are accustomed in this House to seeing the Minister for Finance getting into trouble in the Front Benches and to seeing the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste coming in to cover his mistake, and then sending out for Fianna Fáil's hatchet men— Deputies Corry and McGrath—to come in to throw insults at me. I am accustomed to that. They are probably not bad chaps if one knew them on their native heath. I think it is a gross affront for the two Ministers to use them as hatchet men to try to shout me down. It will not work. I am seeking information, and I am going to get an answer. Have we now reached the stage when the Minister for Finance certifies to the House that Financial Resolution No. 4 is nugatory, that it is in fact a tax on the Exchequer. The user of diesel oil in this country is, for the purpose of this Resolution, to be regarded only in so far as it is used in mobile vehicles not in stationary engines. There are two types of mobile engines using diesel oil at the present time in Ireland—a restricted number of agricultural tractors and heavy buses.

Mr. Lemass

Nonsense.

Mr. Dillon

The number of diesel lorries is relatively small.

Mr. Lemass

The number is quite substantial.

Mr. Dillon

I am very well aware that diesel lorries are highly recommended, but only the largest firms in a position to make very substantial capital investments can equip themselves with these. It may be that those fortunate enough to have capital are making a good bargain and reducing their overheads. I have been in business for quite a long while myself, and I know that there are very few firms who can afford such capital investment.

Mr. Lemass

If you tax petrol and not diesel oil there will be a lot more. That is one reason for the Resolution.

Mr. Dillon

I cannot imagine that the Government is greatly concerned about the revenue it derives from the taxation of diesel oil used in agricultural tractors. This Resolution means no more than this: We want to prevent lorry owners who are at present using petrol from switching over from petrol to diesel oil. Can we look forward to getting any revenue from this at all? If any charge comes in course of payment, we expect the Exchequer to meet it. In fact, the Resolution is a tax on the Exchequer and is against, as far as lorries are concerned, the conversion from petrol to diesel oil. The bulk of the revenue derived from this Resolution will go to the Exchequer, as a safeguard against the conversion of an undue number of lorries from petrol to diesel oil. If we learned at the beginning and got the undertaking we have now got——

Mr. MacEntee

I want to make it quite clear that Deputy Dillon has received no undertaking from me, that I have not given any certificate to the House on any subject to which he has been addressing himself. It is necessary for me to say that, so that it will be on record. I am not going to have Deputy Dillon misrepresenting what I said here in this House.

Mr. Dillon

Two Ministers now tell us that, on their own decision or their own intelligent prescience, taking into consideration their intimate knowledge of the capacity of Córas Iompair Éireann to derive increased revenue from raising charges, and other relevant matters, it is their judgment that the imposition of these taxes will not involve the raising of bus fares on the fare-paying passengers of the City of Dublin.

Mr. Morrissey

They have not said that.

Mr. Dillon

I think the Tánaiste says that.

Mr. Morrissey

Neither of them says it. Bus fares are going to go up.

Mr. Dillon

Surely we are entitled to question these Ministers as being the two persons who have expert knowledge at their disposal? Is not Deputy McGrath bound to ask them what effect this Resolution will have on his constituents in Cork just as Deputy Byrne asked what effect the Resolution would have on his constituents in Dublin? Surely Deputy McGrath must feel it a duty to ask that question. Does he not agree with me that the two Ministers who have expert advice at their disposal know the answer and should feel bound to tell us what the probable impact of the tax will be?

Mr. McGrath

I would like to ask how much your waste of time here this evening will cost the State?

Mr. Dillon

I do not think it was a waste of time. I feel it is a mistake to say it was a waste of time. Every constituent and every resident in Cork whom the Deputy represents in this House is about to be taxed or not to be taxed under this Resolution. I do not think Deputy McGrath knows whether his constituents are going to have to bear these taxes or not. Deputy Alfred Byrne, who represents as large a number of people in the City of Dublin, does not know, and rightly asks and wants to know before Dáil Éireann takes a decision. I tried to get from the Minister a positive answer to the questions: In your best judgment will it probably mean that fares will go up or do you believe, with all the knowledge at your disposal, that fares will not go up? I invite the Ministers to tell us, in their best judgment, will this, in all the circumstances, involve an increase in bus fares, or will it not? Can either of the Ministers give me a monosyllabic answer, yes or no. Will these taxes probably raise bus fares on fare-paying passengers in the Cities of Dublin and Cork?

Mr. Lemass

It will not affect the position one way or the other. Córas Iompair Éireann are losing so much that they will have to get money wherever they get it.

Mr. Larkin

I do not know why Deputy Dillon is badgering the two Ministers, because the Government is providing £1,300,000 to meet possible losses, and it is quite clear from what the Tánaiste said that, if Córas Iompair Éireann can secure increased revenue by higher increases in fares to meet this charge, they will and should and will be required to do it. Is not that quite clear? We will get no undertaking from them, because they regard it as the duty of Córas Iompair Éireann. There is another aspect of the matter on which we might have a similar statement and will not get it, and it is equally important. The Tánaiste has referred to the question of economy and better organisation. The additional costs which will have to be met by Córas Iompair Éireann as a result of this tax can equally be saved by redundancy among the staff. I am not asking for any undertaking. We already know what has been going on.

Mr. Lemass

What does the Deputy mean by redundancy of staff?

Mr. Larkin

You answer that. The last statement we had on that was the reply by the Tánaiste to a question in regard to possible redundancy in Córas Iompair Éireann. He stated that the board had sought a report from its engineers as to whether redundancy existed.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Surely this is not relevant.

Mr. Larkin

We were discussing the losses of Córas Iompair Éireann. You permitted the possible recoupment of the losses by increased fares. The question of recoupment of losses can equally be recovered by redundancy and dismissal of staff. As I was saying, when the Tánaiste was questioned, he stated that the board had asked for this report. They had got a report and, in the opinion of the engineers, there was no redundancy. They sent back for a further report. I do not know whether they have got that report, but I have a very strong suspicion.

Mr. Davin

They have.

Mr. Larkin

I do not expect any assurance from the Tánaiste because he will say it is the board's policy and the board's responsibility. In so far as this possibly increased burden on Córas Iompair Éireann is concerned it may be met by increased fares; it may be met by reorganisation and it may be met by economies that will affect the employment of many hundreds of men. That is what we have to face up to, not merely fares as it affects the constituents of Deputy Byrne, Deputy McGrath and myself but as it affects the problem of mounting unemployment.

Mr. Lemass

Deputy Larkin has confused the position very cleverly. Córas Iompair Éireann last year, under Coalition instructions, were expected to lose nothing. In fact, they lost £1,800,000.

Mr. Larkin

That is clear, and nobody has been sacked yet.

Mr. Lemass

This year they have been asked to work on the basis of losing not more than £1,300,000. It is obviously not going to be easy. If they can adjust fares so as to bring in more revenue or introduce new working methods like diesel rail cars to save costs, then there will be opportunities to improve the situation.

Mr. Dillon

To save costs?

Mr. Lemass

They will be working to that situation, but clearly it is not going to be easy for them to do. These taxes will not affect the position one way or the other with regard to fares, because the maximum increase in revenue they get by adjusting fares and the maximum economies they can get by the elimination of redundancy, if there is redundancy, or the introduction of new methods of working, will still be barely sufficient to bring the losses down to £1,300,000.

May I point out to the Deputy, merely as a matter of illustration and not of complaint, that increased wages this year have already increased Córas Iompair Éireann operating costs by far more than these taxes will.

Mr. Morrissey

Are we to take it therefore that the increases as now proposed will not make any difference. The Minister has twice said that this imposition as far as Córas Iompair Éireann is concerned will not make any difference. Perhaps the Minister would explain.

Mr. Lemass

The essence of the problem is that the maximum revenue Córas Iompair Éireann can get by charging the highest fares that the traffic will bear is not sufficient to meet the cost of providing the transport services. That is the whole essence of the problem.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We seem to be discussing Córas Iompair Éireann policy.

Mr. Davin

Because it is involved.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

In relation to this Resolution yes, but on general policy it is quite out of order.

Mr. Morrissey

We are not on general policy.

Mr. Davin

The Minister admitted last week in this House that he had received proposals from Córas Iompair Éireann in the latter end of last year concerning the necessity for the reorganisation of the company's services. I asked the Minister to what extent the company had indicated redundancy if such redundancy did exist.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

How is that related to Resolution No. 4?

Mr. Davin

Deputy Larkin has pointed out and the Minister knows quite well that additional expenditure of £100,000 is going to be recovered by the company in their economies on staff. The Minister knows—both as Deputy for the city constituency that he represents and as Minister for Industry and Commerce—that there is an economy commission which is touring all the offices trying to crack skulls——

Mr. Lemass

That was set up before I came to office.

Mr. Davin

It was not.

Mr. Lemass

It should have been and it was. The board of Córas Iompair Éireann told me that from the day they were set up they had been seeking economies.

Mr. Davin

I accuse you as Minister for Industry and Commerce as the person responsible for urging them to set up this economy commission.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is totally out of order. He is not speaking to the Resolution and he must come back to it.

Mr. Davin

The Minister is pretending to be innocent but I know that he is responsible for what is going on in Córas Iompair Éireann to-day, including the establishment of the economy commission.

Mr. McGrath

It is plain——

Mr. Davin

I warn Deputy McGrath if he does not take care and use his influence that economy commission will be in Cork.

Mr. MacEntee

It is quite clear that Deputy Davin has been discussing the responsibility of the Minister for Industry and Commerce. That is not in order.

Mr. Davin

I will finish up by saying that I do not think this discussion would have gone on so long were it not for the discourtesy of the Minister for Finance in refusing to answer the questions put by Deputy MacBride and myself: did he consult the Minister for Industry and Commerce or the Department of Industry and Commerce regarding the effect on Córas Iompair Éireann of this Resolution?

Mr. MacBride

I asked a simple question from the Minister for Finance as to the effects of this tax on bus fares. A great many things have been said by the Minister for Finance and a great many things by the Minister for Industry and Commerce and a great many things have been said by members on both sides of the House in regard to the matter, but I still do not know what the answer is as to the effect of this tax.

Mr. Lemass

None.

Mr. MacBride

Will the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Industry and Commerce now give the House an assurance that, as a result of this tax, bus fares will not be increased?

Mr. Lemass

This tax will have no effect whatever.

Mr. MacBride

Are we now getting an assurance from the Minister that this tax will not result in increased bus fares?

Mr. Lemass

It is not an assurance. The Deputy must understand that the previous Government, my predecessor and Deputy McGilligan instructed Córas Iompair Éireann to raise fares to the highest level that the traffic would bear.

Mr. MacBride

I have asked would the Minister now give us an assurance that this tax will not result in increased bus fares.

Mr. Lemass

This tax will have nothing to do with it.

Mr. MacBride

Is that an assurance that it will not result in increased bus fares? The Minister for Finance has said one thing and the Tánaiste another thing.

Mr. Lemass

Córas Iompair Éireann were instructed by my predecessor and the former Minister for Finance to charge the highest fares that the traffic would allow.

Mr. MacBride

Will word go out now from the Minister to Córas Iompair Éireann asking them not to pass this tax on to fare-paying passengers?

Mr. Lemass

You were a member of the Government which, through my predecessor, instructed Córas Iompair Éireann to charge the highest fares that the traffic would bear.

Mr. MacBride

Will an instruction go out to Córas Iompair Éireann not to pass this tax on to the passengers? Will the Minister give that instruction?

Mr. MacEntee

You ought to cut your cross-examining teeth somewhere else. Your parliamentary tactics are not so good.

Mr. MacBride

You are trying to mislead the House in this matter as well as the country and misrepresenting the position. Why can you not answer the question?

Mr. McGrath

The people will give you your answer.

Mr. MacBride

Yes, and they will give you and some of your other colleagues who promised they would increase subsidies their answer too.

Dr. ffrench-O'Carroll

Did Deputy MacBride undertake to reduce taxation and bring in a Social Welfare Bill?

Mr. MacBride

I have Deputy Dr. ffrench-O'Carroll's election address, in which he promised he would demand increased food subsidies, but to-day he has voted for their reduction.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy MacBride should be allowed to make his speech.

Mr. McGrath

I think aviation spirit would have been more interesting to Deputy MacBride.

Captain Cowan

He is not using that now.

Mr. MacBride

Possibly Deputy Killilea would have been more useful so far as this House is concerned if he had stayed in Strasbourg.

Mr. Killilea

I saw some of the dives you stayed at there.

Mr. MacBride

The Minister for Finance is introducing to-day a Budget which imposes heavy duties on the working-class population. We are now asking him not to impose further burdens on them through this tax. Before voting for this tax, we are entitled to know whether the Minister is prepared to give an assurance that the tax will not result in increases in the bus fares of the working-class population of Dublin.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Will the Minister conclude?

Mr. Norton

This motion is being discussed in Committee, and we had one of these instances before where the Minister was called on in Committee to reply. Are you going to gag the House?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

There must be some finality.

Mr. Norton

Is there going to be a gagging of the House? There will be no closure.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

If no Deputy offers the Chair must call on the Minister.

General MacEoin

I am trying to get up for the last ten minutes.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy MacEoin.

General MacEoin

Two questions were put to the two Ministers and at the start of the debate they gave two separate and contradictory answers.

Mr. MacEntee

On a point of order, is it in order for the Deputy to allege that I intervened in this debate on Resolution No. 4 and gave any answer?

General MacEoin

Yes.

Mr. Morrissey

That is not a point of order.

Mr. MacEntee

It is a point of order, because I did not intervene in the debate on Resolution No. 4. I have not done so and, therefore, I submit it is not in order for Deputy MacEoin to try to mislead the Chair by alleging that a statement was made in regard to Resolution No. 4, which was not, in fact, made by me.

General MacEoin

May I submit that the Chair is not entitled to decide on a question of fact. I am making an assertion of a fact that took place here within my hearing and in my sight, and it is not a point of order on the part of the Minister but a disorderly interruption and action will have to be taken if he persists in such interruptions.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister is surely entitled to make a point of explanation.

General MacEoin

I do not propose to give way further and I have no intention of doing so. I will ask, if he intervenes again in that disorderly fashion, that he will be dealt with. I am trying to keep some order in the House if I can. I am entitled to address the Chair without interruption.

Mr. McGrath

On a point of order, is it in order for Deputy Collins to refer to the Minister for Finance as a "Rathmines rowdy"?

Mr. S. Collins

Yes, I did refer to him as a Rathmines rowdy and you as the disappointed Lord Mayor of Cork, and it is perfectly in order.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

If Deputy Collins made that remark it is not parliamentary and he must withdraw it.

Mr. S. Collins

I made the observation that he was a Rathmines rowdy and is that disorderly?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is disorderly and unparliamentary and the Deputy will withdraw it.

Mr. S. Collins

If you say it is, then I will withdraw it.

Mr. MacEntee

I hope that Deputy Collins will remember, when he comes to my office and tries to see me, I shall refuse to see him. I have a perfect right to do so if he chooses to insult me in public.

Mr. S. Collins

Is that a threat, because if it is I will never go near your office again.

Mr. MacEntee

I shall never again receive you in my office.

Mr. Donnellan

Is not that what you are paid for?

Mr. MacEntee

I am not paid to receive people who insult me.

Mr. Donnellan

It is your duty to meet Deputies of this House. That is what you are bloody well paid for, and you will do it.

Mr. Davin

He will not be there very long anyway, please God.

Mr. MacEntee

The Deputy will withdraw that remark without any qualification whatsoever or I will not see him.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy General MacEoin on Resolution No. 4.

Mr. MacBride

I think the Minister should be the last person to complain of being insulted.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy General MacEoin is in possession.

Mr. S. Collins

On a point of order. The Minister has suggested that, as a result of something I said, he as a Minister will refuse to receive me as a Deputy in his office. Is that in order? He has asked me to withdraw something which on your instructions I have already withdrawn.

Mr. Dillon

The Minister has lost his temper and he had better mend his hand.

Mr. MacEntee

Henceforward I am not seeing Deputy Collins under any circumstances.

Mr. S. Collins

Is it in order for a Minister to threaten to refuse to see an elected representative of the people?

Mr. MacEntee

No, no.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair has no function in a matter of that kind. Deputy General MacEoin on the Resolution.

General MacEoin

Two simple questions were propounded, and it was quite clear that two different answers were given by two different Ministers. Is it not clear that when the fuel used by Córas Iompair Éireann in their buses is taxed that will entail an increased impost on the company? Is it not equally clear that they must in some way recoup themselves for any resultant loss they suffer? In order to do that they must either increase fares or receive an increased subsidy from the State. If the subsidy from the State is increased, does that mean an additional subsidy to Córas Iompair Éireann as against the ordinary private haulier, who will also have to pay this tax? The ordinary lorry-owner using diesel oil will have to pay this extra fourpence. He will receive no subsidy, and he will be trading in competition with Córas Iompair Éireann, but Córas Iompair Éireann will be recouped their losses.

Captain Cowan

I am sure that argument appeals to Deputy Larkin.

General MacEoin

We merely want to know what exactly the position is. If Deputy McGrath and Deputy Cowan do not want to know and are not interested, that is their own business.

Mr. McGrath

We have been doing it for years. Did you not do it yourself?

General MacEoin

I rather thought you did everything blindly and that you always went wherever you were led without having any knowledge of where you were going. The Minister should be specific in the information he gives us on this point. When the Minister for Industry and Commerce interjected he said that Córas Iompair Éireann could make it up by reorganisation and economies. Remember, if that is done it could bring about the disemployment of a large number of people at present engaged in Córas Iompair Éireann and that would be a very serious matter. I cannot see any Deputy agreeing to a tax like that, a tax which will have such a serious effect. If there is such a risk we should get from the Minister now some assurance that this increased impost will not have the effect of increasing fares or interfere with the employment of people in Córas Iompair Éireann.

Mr. Norton

I want some clarification of this Resolution because it may have much more serious consequences in its ramifications than was at first thought possible. According to the debate this Resolution when operated will cost Córas Iompair Éireann £100,000 per annum.

Mr. MacEntee

Nobody said that.

Mr. Norton

It will cost them £x per annum. If the Minister wants to quarrel, he will get plenty of opportunities before 10.30 to-night. Córas Iompair Éireann will pay £x under this Resolution when it is passed. They can recoup themselves that sum in three ways. They can get an increased subsidy from the State to make up the additional loss. They can get it in increased fares from those who travel by Córas Iompair Éireann. They can get it by reduction in staff and save on staff the additional sum they will have to pay for heavy oil under this Resolution. There does not seem to me to be any other way in which they can recoup themselves the loss they will sustain.

What is likely to be the course of development in the Minister's view? Will the State give Córas Iompair Éireann more money? Will it direct and aid Córas Iompair Éireann in increasing fares and get the fare-paying passengers to pay more? Will it call on Córas Iompair Éireann so to cut down staff that Córas Iompair Éireann will save on staff the additional cost of oil under this Resolution?

The Minister probably knows that there is a rumour throughout the city that Córas Iompair Éireann proposes to dismiss 2,500 workers. If that happens, it will be very serious for the workers and it will cause a very substantial increase in the number of unemployed. Will Córas Iompair Éireann be accelerated in its policy of dismissing workers? The Minister should tell us where this Resolution will lead us. If Córas Iompair Éireann gets away with its present intention of dismissing 2,500 workers, they will not all be from Dublin; they will be from all over the country, and every Deputy here will be responsible for his silence on that matter in this debate.

Mr. MacEntee

On a point of order. Deputy Norton appears to be discussing the general policy of Córas Iompair Éireann, and I submit that that is not in order in this debate.

Mr. Norton

This debate would have been over two hours ago had the Minister been helpful in explaining what, in his view, will be the consequences of this Resolution. I have explained the three sources from which Córas Iompair Éireann can recoup themselves the additional cost of this oil. From what source are they expected to get it? Will they be allowed to increase fares which will again be tantamount to putting their hands into the pockets of the workers as a result of this Budget? Will they be allowed to economise at the expense of workers who have given a lifetime of service to Córas Iompair Éireann? Will the State give them a bigger subsidy? The Minister can quite easily answer two of these questions and then we will know where we are. If he says there will be no more subsidy, then it is clear they will have to get it through increased fares or by dismissing workers. If the Minister says that they will not be allowed to increase fares—and we know they can be prevented from doing that —then we know clearly what the situation is: they will be aided and abetted in dismissing a couple of thousand workers. Where is the Resolution leading us? We are entitled to know that.

Captain Cowan

I should just like to deal with one aspect of what Deputy Norton has just said. He has given voice to a rumour which was circulating in the city some time ago and which has been denied.

Mr. Norton

It has not.

Captain Cowan

It has been officially denied by the general manager of Córas Iompair Éireann.

Mr. Davin

On a point of order, is the Deputy speaking for the Minister on this matter?

Captain Cowan

I am speaking for myself and Deputy Davin knows very well I am speaking for myself. I am quite competent to speak for myself.

Mr. Dillon

Where was the official denial published?

Captain Cowan

I read it in the paper.

Mr. Dillon

Which paper?

Captain Cowan

In all the papers. It was said there was no truth in it. I want to say, as deliberately as I can, that there is no truth whatsover in the rumour. There is no truth in the statement that 2,500 men were to be dismissed by Córas Iompair Éireann.

Mr. Davin

They sacked the night staff——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

This has no bearing on the Resolution whatsoever.

Captain Cowan

If Deputy Davin wants to bludgeon me into silence he is going to fail.

Mr. Davin

It is true.

Captain Cowan

I think we can run our business in this Parliament without any form of the dictatorship he is trying to impose here. I only want to say that the board of Córas Iompair Éireann is a board established by the inter-Party Government. On that are two Labour representatives appointed on the advice of Deputy Davin. They are the people who are in charge of the employment policy inside Córas Iompair Éireann. It is a reflection by these Deputies on the people they appointed that they are raising this scare about 2,500 men to be unemployed. We ought to discuss these matters with some attempt at honesty.

Deputies

Hear, hear!

Captain Cowan

There is no attempt at honesty. We had exactly the same Resolution last year word for word with the exception of the portion dealing with amounts.

Mr. Morrissey

Do you remember what was said?

Captain Cowan

I do not care what was said. Where was the concern of Deputy Norton then with regard to it?

Mr. Norton

There were no dismissals then from Córas Iompair Éireann.

Captain Cowan

I am saying as clearly as possible what the position is. There will be no dismissals.

Mr. Davin

They were dismissed last week in Bray, Dún Laoghaire and Dublin.

Captain Cowan

There is a suggestion here that 2,500 men are to be dismissed. The object of raising that matter is to create confusion and uncertainty in the minds of people employed in Córas Iompair Éireann. I think that is unfair. I think it is a type of cruelty to say that.

Mr. Davin

You do not know what is going on.

Captain Cowan

There could be no policy of disemploying 2,500 men in this country. No one would stand for that.

Mr. Cafferky

Ten thousand men were put out of work during the last 12 months.

Captain Cowan

I am talking about alleged deliberate Government policy to bring about the disemployment of 2,500 men.

Mr. O'Leary

You are defending the Minister.

Captain Cowan

I am defending nobody, I am trying to defend the truth. What I have been trying to do is to get the House to deal with matters in a serious way.

Mr. Dillon

God forgive you.

Captain Cowan

When one wants to deal with Irish politics in this House, it is a matter of play-acting.

Deputies

Hear, hear!

Mr. Dillon

Edmund Kean was only trotting after you.

Captain Cowan

We have a perfect example in the Deputy from Ballaghaderreen, who not only is a play-actor but is the pure antiquated specimen of clown play-acting——

An Ceann Comhairle

Would the Deputy now come to deal with Resolution No. 4?

Mr. Sweetman

Was that in order from the Red Nuncio from Crumlin?

An Ceann Comhairle

That remark is not in order.

Mr. Sweetman

It was used by Deputy MacEntee in reference to the Deputy.

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not make it in order. It is disorderly to use it now either.

Mr. Dillon

It is in the Official Report without any rebuke.

Captain Cowan

I do not mind what anybody says about me.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have to try to keep order in the House.

Captain Cowan

I think you are perfectly right to try to bring some order and decorum into the proceedings. I am only saying that as far as I can see there is not sufficient order or decorum.

An Ceann Comhairle

Would the Deputy come to Resolution No. 4?

Captain Cowan

Resolution No. 4 is in exactly the same words as a similar Resolution last year with the exception——

Mr. S. Collins

On a point of order, is the last observation of Deputy Cowan not an insinuation against the Chair? He said that sufficient order was not being kept in the House.

Captain Cowan

I did not say that. I said I was trying to bring about order.

Mr. S. Collins

His last observation was that there was not enough order in this House.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Cowan on Resolution No. 4.

Captain Cowan

Yes.

A Deputy

And on decorum.

Captain Cowan

Decorum is perfectly right. It is a great thing to have a sense of humour. I can enjoy these scenes. I notice that when the Budget statement was being read, there was a certain hilarity on this side. I can imagine that was from the harassed taxpayers——

Mr. W. Murphy

And a little on the other side, too.

Captain Cowan

I only want to say that this Resolution is almost word for word, the same Resolution that appeared before the Dáil last year. The difference is that those who are complaining about it now were then defending it.

Mr. O'Leary

Including yourself.

Captain Cowan

Yes.

Mr. Sweetman

The difference is that we were taking only 1/4 but you are taking 1/8.

Captain Cowan

I am perfectly consistent. I was defending it last year and I am defending it this year.

Mr. Morrissey

You will do the same on the next Resolution, too.

Captain Cowan

I should like to see other Deputies with the same consistency as I have. However, we shall still have to go through with this until 10.30. Deputy Norton has said that he is going to keep it going until 10.30.

Mr. MacEntee

May I point out that these tax Resolutions must be disposed of before 10.30? They must be put to the House before 10.30.

Captain Cowan

I understand that there is an agreement that they must be put before 10.30.

Mr. Davin

Will the Minister answer the question?

Captain Cowan

I understood from Deputy Norton that, no matter what his answer, the Resolutions must be passed to-night.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has not said anything about the motion since I came in.

Captain Cowan

You must admit, Sir, that it has been difficult to make what you might call any type of logical connected statement, but I think I have interjected a few observations which are sufficient in the circumstances.

Mr. Morrissey

May I say that I agree with the Minister that these Resolutions must be got through before the House rises. Perhaps we need not go to 10.30 p.m. if the Minister had approached the discussion of them in a different manner. I must confess that, since I became a member of the House, I have never seen a Budget discussion like this. Deputy Cowan assured us that he was speaking "the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth". I know nothing of what is said to be going on regarding dismissals in Córas Iompair Éireann. Deputy Cowan, with all the assurance which he puts forth, but speaking from a complete lack of knowledge, said that he wanted to state that it had been officially denied by the general manager that any such dismissals were under consideration. That statement of Deputy Cowan's is not true.

Captain Cowan

I read it.

Mr. Morrissey

You did not. What the Deputy read was a heading in the Sunday Press alleging that a certain officer in Córas Iompair Éireann had made a certain statement. I would say to Deputy Cowan that this is a very serious matter, and that he ought to be a bit more careful when challenging other members of the House and insisting that he, and he alone, is telling the truth.

Captain Cowan

The general manager made the statement.

Mr. Morrissey

The general manager did not make any statement.

Captain Cowan

I read it.

Mr. Morrissey

I challenge Deputy Cowan.

Captain Cowan

I said that I read it. A statement, even in the Press, must be accepted unless it can be proved that I am wrong.

Mr. Morrissey

Not at all. I am not going to accept that. I am going to challenge the Deputy for his authority as to where he read it. Such a statement was never made.

Mr. Allen

What has all this to do with Resolution No. 4?

Mr. Morrissey

Why did you not ask that when Deputy Cowan was speaking?

Mr. Allen

I have asked it six times already.

Mr. Morrissey

I think that this matter could have been easily and simply finished before now. I agree that we have spent far too much time on it, but I think the Minister is as much responsible for that as anybody else.

Mr. MacEntee

No, I am not. I did not make the same speech five times on this as Deputy Dillon did. All I did was to protest against deliberate distortion.

Mr. Morrissey

I want to say that the Minister's own provocative line was responsible for a good many of the speeches and for a good deal of the repetition. It seems to me that there is a very simple way of disposing of it once and for all. Resolution No. 4, if passed by the House, is going to impose a very heavy additional charge on the users of diesel oil in this country. We all know that Córas Iompair Éireann are the heaviest users of it, and that it is going to impose a heavy charge on them.

Deputies are entitled to get from the Minister an explicit statement as to whether Córas Iompair Éireann, in order to meet this additional charge, will have to put on additional fares or increase existing fares. That is a fair question which, I think, any member of the House is entitled to ask. With all respect, I submit that it is a question which the Minister in charge of a Budget Resolution would be expected to answer.

If the Minister were to say, as I think he would be perfectly entitled to say: "I do not know whether they want to increase fares or not; that is not my function," I would be prepared to accept that. If, on the other hand, he were to say: "They will not have any need to increase fares because we will make good the additional sum by way of subsidy," that would be understandable; but it is not fair for the Minister to say: "Pass the Resolution; I do not care what is going to happen to Córas Iompair Éireann; I do not care what may flow from this or upon whom this load is going to fall, whether the taxpayers or the people who use the buses." We are entitled to know that. I do not mind expressing my view and, perhaps outside the Minister and his colleagues, I know as much about this as anybody else. I have no hesitation in coming to the conclusion that Córas Iompair Éireann will endeavour to recoup this additional charge which is being imposed on them through an increase in fares. They are statutorily bound to do that, and they can only refrain from putting this additional charge on the passengers if they are satisfied that, so to do that, would lose money for them rather than make money.

Captain Cowan

The dismissal of 2,500 men?

Breanndán Mac Fheórais

Deputy Morrissey has summed up the position for those who sit on this side of the House. The opinion is that this Resolution means that there will be an increase in fares. Deputies on the Government side of the House do not know what the consequences will be, but they are prepared to accept them.

Mr. Dillon

I have no apology to make to the House for looking for information and for insisting on getting it. So long as I am a member of the House, I will continue to do that. Deputy Cowan erects himself as the inoffensive apostle of innocence.

Captain Cowan

The truth is all I want.

Mr. Dillon

If there was a proposal to erect a third pedestal on the top of the stairs on which he could stand——

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Dillon should confine himself to the Resolution before the House.

Mr. Dillon

Deputy Cowan has severely rebuked me for pressing home inquiries to the Minister in respect to the impact of Resolution No. 4. I thought that Deputy Cowan, if he felt himself justified in thus rebuking me, would have himself said that it must be clear where the Government intends this burden to fall. Is it on the subsidy supplied by the Treasury, is it on the fare-paying passengers or is it on the employees of Córas Iompair Éireann who are to be dismissed in order to recoup the company this burden? I do not think Deputy Cowan himself now knows.

Captain Cowan

There is a fourth dimension.

Mr. Dillon

What is it?

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Cowan will please refrain from interrupting.

Mr. Dillon

I am bound to say this: the Deputy rose to rebuke us for pressing this query on the Minister. I suggest to the House that a legitimate deduction from his assumed indignation with his colleagues in the House is that the truth is manifest to anyone who wishes to see it. If it is, I think Deputy Cowan should be able to name it to us. If he did, then I would ask the Minister for Finance to confirm or correct him.

Deputy Cowan intervened at some length to abuse everybody in the House for dishonesty, for dissembling and for trickery, and, generally, for scandalising his pure and holy mind. All that I am asking him to do is to tell me in crude or curt language who is going to pay the tax in pounds under Resolution No. 4, in so far as it falls on the diesel oil used by Córas Iompair Éireann. That is all I want to know. If he tells us that, and if the Minister for Finance says: "I confirm that", then this debate is over. But I cannot find that from Deputy Cowan, because I do not believe he knows. I think the truth is that Deputy Cowan is afraid to ask the Minister for Finance for fear he would get his tail twisted after this House adjourns.

Captain Cowan

Deputy Dillon has a lot of experience of twisting my tail.

Mr. Dillon

I do not think I ever dreamed of that, but I would undertake almost anything to straighten it. I am not omnipotent. There are three sources. I am not asking the Minister to say he knows which source. I am simply asking him to say to the House: "Having taken the best advice I can, I think here is where the charge is likely to fall." If he had done that two and a half hours ago, this debate would have been over. Every responsible Deputy has asked him to give his advised opinion and nothing more, and that he has consistently refused to do. I think we are entitled to get it before we divide on this Resolution.

Deputy Cowan rose.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister to conclude.

Mr. Dillon

On a point of order. Has not any Deputy the right to speak?

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Cowan did not offer himself as far as I could see. I see now that Deputy Donnellan did.

Mr. Donnellan

We heard from Deputy Cowan how consistent he was and how inconsistent other Deputies are. Last year, when a Resolution somewhat similar to this was brought forward, except that the increase was only 2d., while this year it is 4d., bringing the total in two years to 6d., the present Minister for Finance, then Deputy MacEntee, as reported in Volume 125 of the 2nd May of the Official Reports, said:—

"It is a tax which will not only increase bus fares, as Deputy Lemass has said, but that will also tend to send up the cost of the transport of all goods produced by farmers and by manufacturers, and of everything the workers of this country consume."

That was when the increase of 2d. was made. Now an extra 4d. is proposed and I suppose that has not any bearing on what the Minister for Finance said. I want Deputy Cowan, who talks about how consistent——

Captain Cowan

How consistent I am.

Mr. Donnellan

I remember Deputy Cowan at one time asking the then Ceann Comhairle would he be in order in calling the present Minister for Finance a sewer rat.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is entirely out of order.

Captain Cowan

I was ruled out of order.

Mr. Donnellan

I suppose the "sewer rat" was delighted that it was ruled out of order.

Mr. O. Flanagan

That is about all that is wrong with it.

Mr. Donnellan

If it was wrong last year to increase it by 2d., surely it is twice as wrong this year to increase it by 4d. Deputies talk about the bus fares and what this would cost the workers. I fully realise that. But what will it cost the producers? What will it cost the farmers in regard to the transport of beet and other agricultural produce and the transport of fertilisers?

Captain Cowan

What was the tax put on for—for fun? When you put on a tax you mean to collect money from somebody.

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask Deputy Cowan to refrain from interrupting.

Mr. Donnellan

If it was wrong to put on 2d. last year, according to the present Minister, how is it right to add on 4d. to the 2d. so as to make it 6d.?

Mr. McEntee

It is very flattering to see that the whole massed ranks of the Opposition cannot produce any better argument against this tax than the one I produced last year. It did not prevail with them then; it did not convince them that the tax was not justified and I do not see how it should be any more efficacious in making them change their views this year.

Let me see how all this debate started. It started, not on Resolution No. 4, not on any observations I made with regard to Resolution No. 4 but on a Resolution which has already been disposed of by the House—Resolution No. 3. Winding up the debate on that resolution, I made a surmise but did not give any undertaking, notwithstanding all the oratorical contortions into which Deputy Dillon twisted my words. I said, in effect: "I suppose, having regard to the situation, if Córas Iompair Éireann cannot meet whatever burden this tax imposes on them, the Exchequer will have to meet it." That was not an undertaking, that was not a certificate, that was not a pledge, that was not a promise; it was a surmise, as I have said, uttered in the course of a debate, not on this Resolution but on the last Resolution. Following that, Deputy Dillon got up and repeated himself. He made four speeches, which had been carefully prepared. I said he made four speeches. He did not; he made one speech, but he delivered it four times, using exactly the same phraseology on every occasion. Therefore, this outburst of spontaneous indignation was obviously carefully rehearsed.

Mr. D.J. O'Sullivan

On a point of order. That is a distinct rebuke to the Chair—that the Chair permitted Deputy Dillon to repeat himself.

Mr. MacEntee

There are times, and everybody knows it, when Deputy Dillon is perfectly uncontrollable by any reasonable means.

Mr. D.J. O'Sullivan

Is the Minister's contention, therefore, that the Ceann Comhairle is unable to carry out his duties?

Mr. MacEntee

The only way to control him is to be patient and then he will subside.

Mr. Dillon

Now we see why we are two and a half hours on this.

Mr. MacEntee

I had to protest when Deputy MacBride was here at an attempt being made to turn this deliberative assembly into a sort of police court in which Ministers are asked to answer "yes" or "no" to an apparently simple question. The Ministers on this side of the House are not fools and they are not going to give these categorical answers to very complicated propositions. Deputy Cowan did a useful service in reminding the House that the Government are not responsible for the management of Córas Iompair Éireann, that we neither appointed the board nor passed the Act under which it functions. That Act was passed by our predecessors. It made the board independent of this House and quite independent of the Government in the management of the undertaking. When I am asked what the board will do with regard to this Resolution, it would appear to be a simple question which I can answer, readily, particularly when it is put in the categorical but misleading way in which it was put by Deputy MacBride and I think by Deputy Dillon and Deputy Morrissey and Deputy MacEoin. They asked: Will the board in consequence of this Resolution increase the fares? I am not going, by answering "Yes" or "No" to that, virtually to take over the functions or responsibilities of the Board of Córas Iompair Éireann. I am not such a fool when I am challenged in that way in this House to fall into a trap of that sort. I have no responsibility for the Board of Córas Iompair Éireann, nor for the fact that the board is bound under the Act to endeavour to make its accounts balance. I have a difficult job enough to ensure that the accounts of the nation will balance, without trying to balance the accounts of Córas Iompair Éireann.

But, when I heard the way in which that propostion was developed on the other side, when I heard Deputy Norton, Deputy Dillon, Deputy MacEoin and Deputy Morrissey all go down the long line and say: "They must either increase the fares or else they must increase the loss and get a further increase of subsidy from the Government or they must sack staff", when I heard these three possible approaches to this problem set before this House as the only solution of it, then it became clear to me why it was that the public affairs of this State had been reduced to the condition in which they were when the last Government went out and we had to take over.

It never once entered the minds of those gentlemen who were administering our public affairs—for three years, one of whom had, in fact, been in charge of the Department of Industry and Commerce; another had been Tánaiste in the Government—that Córas Iompair Éireann could improve the efficiency of its running stock and its equipment and, by doing that, obviate the need, if need there were, to increase fares by reason of the increase in duty on hydrocarbon oil.

Mr. Sweetman

Do not make a liar of your colleague, Deputy Lemass.

Mr. MacEntee

Deputy Sweetman is very much concerned with the dignity and the decorum of this House. That is not a very decorous remark.

Mr. Sweetman

It is true.

Mr. MacEntee

I am not trying to make a liar of anyone.

Mr. Sweetman

You are contradicting him again.

Mr. MacEntee

I am not contradicting the Tánaiste. The Tánaiste pointed out that it was the responsibility of the board of Córas Iompair Éireann to put that undertaking on a self-supporting basis so that it could be carried on without having to rely on Government subsidies. I am saying that in regard to the members of the Government which established that undertaking and appointed the present board that apparently it has never entered their minds that it would be possible to improve the efficiency of that concern and thereby to find whatever money would have to be found to meet increases in taxation on hydrocarbon oil.

It never entered their minds that not only could the undertaking secure an effective economy in that way but that, so far from having to dismiss staff as being redundant, they could possibly employ more men, ensuring that the internal combustion engines which will run on this diesel oil would run more efficiently and more economically. That is a fundamental problem, as everybody knows, in trying to maintain public service transport vehicles. If they are not properly maintained they become highly inefficient and a little money spent on ensuring that they were properly maintained, by first of all raising the standard of supervision and the standard of workmanship, would probably save Córas Iompair Éireann very much more than they would have to pay by reason of those taxes.

Mr. Norton

We seem to be discussing the affairs of Córas Iompair Éireann. It has been ruled out of order.

Mr. MacEntee

I have been asked to say whether——

Mr. Norton

We ought to have some ruling on it. We were not allowed to refer to it.

An Ceann Comhairle

Since I came into the Chair there have been repeated references to Córas Iompair Éireann from all quarters of the House, so I am not giving the Minister any greater latitude than other Deputies got.

Mr. Norton

There was a ruling against it.

Mr. MacEntee

It never entered the minds of Deputy Norton, Deputy Dillon, Deputy MacEoin or Deputy Morrissey that there might be a fourth way in which the problem which this Resolution will undoubtedly create for Córas Iompair Éireann might be solved. Therefore, since I know there is a fourth way in which it can be solved and should be attacked, I am not going to stand up here and say whether or not Córas Iompair Éireann will have to increase bus fares by reason of Resolution No. 4. That is a matter for Córas Iompair Éireann. One of the effects of the Resolution will be to make the undertaking concerned to see whether economies can be made by improving the efficiency, as I have said, of its running stock and equipment. If they do that then the undertaking will be on the high road to recovery, and there will be no need for alarm about redundancy of staff or increase of fares. It will be able to maintain its staff and give an economic service to the public. That is all I have to say as to the effect of Resolution No. 4 upon the administration, the profits or profitability of Córas Iompair Éireann.

Question put.

The Committee divided: Tá, 72; Níl, 64.

Tá

• Aiken, Frank.
• Allen, Denis.
• Bartley, Gerald.
• Beegan, Patrick.
• Blaney, Neil T.
• Boland, Gerald.
• Boland, Patrick.
• Brady, Philip A.
• Brady, Seán.
• Breathnach, Cormac.
• Breen, Dan.
• Brennan, Joseph.
• Brennan, Thomas.
• Breslin, Cormac.
• Briscoe, Robert.
• Browne, Noel C.
• Buckley, Seán.
• Burke, Patrick.
• Butler, Bernard.
• Carter, Frank.
• Childers, Erskine.
• Cogan, Patrick.
• Colley, Harry
• Collins, James J.
• Corry, Martin J.
• Cowan, Peadar.
• Crowley, Honor Mary.
• Crowley, Tadhg.
• Cunningham, Liam.
• Davern, Michael J.
• Derrig, Thomas.
• de Valera, Eamon.
• de Valera, Vivion.
• Duignan, Peadar.
• Fahy, Frank.
• Fanning, John.
• ffrench-O'Carroll, Michael.
• Flanagan, Seán.
• Flynn, John.
• Flynn, Stephen.
• Gallagher, Colm.
• Gilbride, Eugene.
• Harris, Thomas.
• Hillery, Patrick J.
• Hilliard, Michael.
• Humphreys, Francis.
• Kennedy, Michael J.
• Killilea, Mark.
• Lemass, Seán.
• Little, Patrick J.
• Lynch, Jack (Cork Borough).
• McCann, John.
• MacCarthy, Seán.
• McEllistrim, Thomas.
• MacEntee, Seán.
• McGrath, Patrick.
• Maguire, Patrick J.
• Maher, Peadar.
• Moran, Michael.
• Moylan, Seán.
• Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
• O'Reilly, Matthew.
• Ormonde, John.
• O'Sullivan, Ted.
• Rice, Bridget M.
• Ryan, James.
• Ryan, Mary B.
• Sheridan, Michael.
• Smith, Patrick.
• Traynor, Oscar.
• Walsh, Laurence J.
• Walsh, Thomas.

Níl

• Beirne, John.
• Belton, John.
• Blowick, Joseph.
• Browne, Patrick.
• Byrne, Alfred.
• Cafferky, Dominick.
• Cawley, Patrick.
• Coburn, James.
• Collins, Seán.
• Corish, Brendan.
• Cosgrave, Liam.
• Costello, Declan.
• Costello, John A.
• Crotty, Patrick J.
• Crowe, Patrick.
• Davin, William.
• Desmond, Daniel.
• Dillon, James M.
• Dockrell, Henry P.
• Dockrell, Maurice E.
• Donnellan, Michael.
• Doyle, Peadar S.
• Dunne, Seán.
• Esmonde, Anthony C.
• Everett, James.
• Fagan, Charles.
• Finan, John.
• Finucane, Patrick.
• Flanagan, Oliver J.
• Giles, Patrick.
• Hession, James M.
• Hickey, James.
• Hughes, Joseph.
• Keyes, Michael.
• Kyne, Thomas A.
• Larkin, James.
• Leary, Johnny.
• Lynch, John (North Kerry).
• McAuliffe, Patrick.
• MacBride, Seán.
• MacEoin, Seán.
• McGilligan, Patrick.
• McMenamin, Daniel.
• Mannion, John.
• Morrissey, Daniel.
• Mulcahy, Richard.
• Murphy, Michael P.
• Murphy, William.
• Norton, William.
• O'Donnell, Patrick.
• O'Gorman, Patrick J.
• O'Hara, Thomas.
• O'Higgins, Thomas F. (Jun.).
• O'Reilly, Patrick.
• O'Sullivan, Denis.
• Palmer, Patrick W.
• Reidy, James.
• Reynolds, Mary.
• Roddy, Joseph.
• Rogers, Patrick J.
• Rooney, Eamon.
• Spring, Dan.
• Sweetman, Gerard.
• Tully, John.

Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Ó Briain and Killilea; Níl: Deputies Doyle and Corish.

Resolution declared carried.