Vote 39—Office of the Minister for Education (Resumed).

Debate resumed on motion:

Go ndeonfar suim nach mó ná £216,390 chun slánuithe na suime is ga chun íoctha an mhuirir a thiocfas chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31ú lá de Mhárta, 1953, chun Tuarastal agus Costas Oifig an Aire Oideachais agus chun Costas a bhaineas leis an gComhairle Oideachais.—(An tAire Oideachais.)

Major de Valera

When the debate on this Estimate was adjourned the last day we were dealing with a point raised by Deputy Collins and the simple comment I should like to make is this: what substitute can you reasonably substitute for an examination system when you have regard to the practical purposes for which examinations are needed in contradistinction to what I might call the general educative aims of the teaching which the child is getting? As I said, I do not want to make a wholehearted or, shall I say, a completely biased defence of the examination system. There are difficulties and objections. It is not by any means an ideal method of testing when you regard education from the point of view of the general personal equipment of the child or the young person who is being taught. On the other hand, when you look at it from the practical aspect, that is, from the point of view of ensuring that the person at the end of a course has a certain minimum amount of knowledge in definite form, when it is a question of selecting either for appointment or for some advantage, it is very hard to see what you can substitute for an examination system. As I said on the last day, any alternative seemed to involve such a personal factor on the part of the selectors that it is very hard to think of anything that can, in the long run, be as fair and as objective as the system of examinations.

It is very hard to see in what way you can eliminate, under any other system, the various factors that may operate as undue preference to the extent to which they are eliminated in the examination system. I think, however, that particularly in the higher spheres of education, the system of interview and oral examination, in conjunction with the system of written examination, does much to obviate the objections which are inherent in the system of written examination alone. That development has gone on in modern times and a certain balance has been secured.

Whether it is an examination for a degree or for a Civil Service appointment or for any other practical purpose, we find nowadays that the invariable practice is to have something in the nature of an oral examination or an interview where the examiners or selectors have an opportunity of assessing these intangible things that sometimes escape notice or cannot be put down on the examination paper. However, the point I want to make is that when we talk about the examination system and changing it we are, largely, talking futilely. We have to face a practical problem, and so far as I know nobody has suggested anything like a reasonable or workable alternative, especially when questions of fairness, equal chance for all candidates as far as possible, the elimination of personal influences, and so forth, are taken into account.

There is one thing which I should like to say to the Minister on this Estimate and which, I think, some of us have said to his predecessors in two Governments. After the child has received a basic education in the sense of adequately fitting him morally and intellectually for life there are the practical needs of modern life in regard to education to be taken into consideration. In stressing the practical aspect of it I want to make it quite clear that we are all agreed that the child's basic religious and philosophic training is of first importance, not so much in a question of detail as in the matter of general sound outlook, and that is more than ever true to-day. The child must, first of all, be brought up to realise that religious, philosophic —if you like to use that word for want of a better one—and social ideas are basic and important, particularly important as a basis for life, and his whole outlook on life and the outlook of the community on life is ultimately to be reduced to this. Admitting the importance and the primary nature of that requirement, we then have the second desideratum, namely, that it is a good thing to give the child as broad an education as possible built on the foundation of proper ideas which I have tried to put first.

On top of that, we must then consider the practical requirements of life and these requirements are considerable— so considerable that the question of the time available for educating the child and young person and the amount that has to be got into that time pose a question of balance and must make our educators ask the following questions: What are the priorities? How much time is to be allotted and what is the objective? We must face the fact that having regard to the requirements of the average child and average young person in the community—I am using the word "average" for the whole community and not in regard to children from any selected classes or with any selected objective in front of them —it will not be possible to cater for almost any particular subject to the extent that the theorist or one discussing the matter academically might think was desirable or even necessary. There is a practical point of view here which will have to be solved largely on the basis of cutting our garment to fit the cloth available—the cloth available in this particular case being the time factor and the requirement also of what the child is being educated for. All that is very general but it is a necessary preliminary, perhaps as much to safeguard one from misrepresentation in the matter as anything else.

Once the child has got a sound basic grip of the essential ideas he needs for guiding him through life, he wants a certain amount of definite equipment. What is it? He needs, first, to be in a position to express himself accurately and to think accurately about ordinary things. That is achieved, in the first place, by having that background of definite solid ideas, religious, philosophical and social, laid down and imparted to him so that he has a background to which he can relate practical problems. After that, he requires a facility for thinking clearly about the practical problems he is going to meet in life and to be able to express himself in regard to them. For most of us these practical problems take a very humble form, if you like.

There is the question of being able to write a clear and concise letter or to answer a letter clearly and concisely. There is the question of being able, say, to describe something that we have occasion to describe accurately, first of all, to grasp what we want to describe and, secondly, to describe it. There is the question, for many people, of being able to make a report. What that boils down to is accurate thinking when it comes to detail and an ability to express what we are thinking accurately. I am not going into the subject of how far language is tied up with the processes of thinking, but this much is clear, anyway—that for the child it is essential that he has a grasp of his everyday language and that he can think simply and accurately in that language.

That gets me to the teaching of English which is, if you like to put it so, unfortunately now the most used language by most of our people and the language that is used very much in our everyday affairs. I find there was a lot to be said for the old system which concentrated in a humdrum and almost drudge-like way on such things as the elements of grammar, elementary composition—reading, writing and spelling, as it used to be called. That system had this advantage, anyway, that it got the child down to detail. Instead of leaving him wander over a wide field, he was tied down to a narrower area but he was compelled to master that area in detail. I think that is an important thing for us because I feel that, to some extent, one of our characteristics is a tendency to generalities and to a neglect of detail. That tendency, I am afraid, was exaggerated and amplified by the change in our educational system that took place in 1925, when the pendulum undoubtedly swung too far.

I know there has been a corrective since and that that corrective is all to the good, but at one stage it had gone so far where, in the secondary schools particularly, the adolescent was introduced to a wide sphere of literature and all the rest of it to the detriment of his mastery of the more basic techniques and to the detriment of his ability to express himself. It offered him an escape from detail in a wide wandering over a large field. That has been largely corrected since, perhaps.

I still feel that there is a need in our educational system to concentrate on these basic humdrum details. As I pleaded in this sense before to the Minister's predecessor, I would like to make that point for consideration again. It boils down to this, that one of the first requisites from the practical side and from the point of view of equipping a child for life is to give him ability to be able to do reading, writing and spelling.

Mr. S. Collins

Reading, writing and arithmetic.

Major de Valera

I will come to the arithmetic later.

Mr. S. Collins

These were the three R's.

Major de Valera

I am dealing with the language aspect first, simple but accurate composition, accurate spelling and legible handwriting even though in this age of typewriters and all the rest of it it may be that handwriting is not of such commercial importance as it was. Still, it is an important training for the child and, above all, definite composition, that is, to tie him down to expressing himself accurately about something definite. And now as to the teaching of mathematics, I am afraid that to some extent here again there was a tendency to wander too far afield. What does the average citizen in any walk of life, after he leaves school and college, really feel he needs? What does any person here need for work?

Mr. S. Collins

Hard necks.

Major de Valera

We need to understand the ordinary simple operations of arithmetic. Some acquaintance with the most elementary algebra is of help. Some idea of elementary, straightforward Euclidean geometry is useful, but after that I do not think many of us, in the ordinary course of our lives, need anything further except we happen to be specialists and require further equipment. In regard to such equipment as we do require we need facility, mastery and accuracy.

These were the merits of the old intermediate system. In the old intermediate system, starting in the primary school, the child learned his tables. The child who left the national school knew his tables and would always make two and two equal to four. In doing a simple sum, whether he became a shopkeeper, served behind the counter or anything else he could be relied upon to have an intelligent grasp of the simple arithmetic involved. It aimed at securing a mastery of the fundamental, arithmetical techniques. In so far as algebra was concerned, the practical aspects of the subject were definitely taught and the forms of the tests and exercises were such as to give a facility and accuracy in the handling of these elementary operations and laid the groundwork for the child.

In geometry, he was confined to a definite system—a system that has stood the test of many centuries and after the experimentation that has been going on, my own view is that it is hard to beat him. That is our old friend Euclid. I know he was not popular with the schoolboy. I hated him like poison myself, but his system had this definite merit, first of all, it was a logical system of geometry that taught you the fundamental facts about geometry which you might need for measuring a field, a tennis court or any of the ordinary everyday applications which are not very many. In addition, it gave you a very useful practical training in logic. It was a very practical and unostentatious method of teaching logical thinking. It had this further merit, though this is probably the reason most children abhorred it, it compelled a concentration and attention to detail which, I think, was very good for character.

But be that as it may, the products of education at that time came out with a less general acquaintance with the general mathematical field than we find coming from our schools now but with a much greater mastery of the subjects which they had been taught. I see an advantage in limiting the approach in our primary and secondary schools to a limited amount of detail, and aiming at facility and accuracy in technique as against the approach of broad education in the line of mathematics at the expense of mastery of detail. I think most people who have had occasion to deal with the student in the later stages, both in university and elsewhere, will agree that where higher mathematics are concerned the advantage is to have the child equipped in the ordinary arithmetical and mathematical knowledge needed to carry him through the ordinary average life. In the past the children had that knowledge. They were accurate and they were facile. The system had for them the great educational value that they had been trained to concentrate on certain things, to master certain things and to prosecute certain work to its ultimate conclusion. I think such detailed training as that is very good character-training for a child, and that training is particularly necessary for an imaginative people such as we are. That training and equipment was generally ample for the child in after life in whatever profession, business or career he chose to follow. The knowledge was real. It was applicable. If the child wished to enter a sphere where further mathematical education was necessary, that approach was infinitely preferable to the general introductory approach that became so popular for a time after 1925.

Consider the case of a child who ultimately becomes an accountant. Is it not much better for him that he should have such a command of figures, the ordinary arithmetical and elementary algebraic operations, that he can, so to speak, almost perform the calculations blindfold? Is it not much better that he should be swift, sure and reliable in that technique? A child who has that foundation will have no difficulty in mastering systems of accountancy or in the practical application of the knowledge he has acquired. His agility and facility will enable him to become really competent. On the other hand, the child who leaves school without that basic technique will fumble through life, make mistakes, never feel sure of himself, and be much slower because he has to stop and check.

For a person who intends to go into business where a detailed knowledge of arithmetical methods is required the approach I have advocated is, I think, the desirable one. The same principles hold good in relation to the child who intends to become a specialised mathematician later on or a specialised scientist in which occupation a considerable mathematical technique is required. Those of us who went through the 1925 system subsequently found ourselves labouring under a certain difficulty. We had been introduced in the secondary school to a very wide field. We had been introduced to the theoretical basis of both the differential and the integral calculus. We had gone considerably further in co-ordinate geometry than had our predecessors. That general knowledge was acquired at the expense of time that could have been more properly devoted to accurate manipulation and exercises in basic techniques. We always found ourselves at a disadvantage in time, in speed, in accuracy as against people who had received the earlier basic training I am advocating now. Our wider knowledge was not compensated for by the fact that we had got a premature preview of the wider theoretical field we later came to explore more fully.

I have heard university professors express the opinion that they would prefer to have in their classes students who had heard nothing about the calculus but who knew the arithmetical, algebraic and fundamental geometrical formulae inside out. I have heard them say they would prefer students who came to them knowing a little science and knowing that little well rather than students who came with a general preview of the whole field.

Having regard to the average requirements, I think it is too early to start specialising in the secondary school. Even from the point of view of the child who subsequently becomes a specialist it is desirable to concentrate on the basic techniques, to restrict the curriculum with that object in view and to insist on accurate knowledge and facility. The child who is equipped with that training will find no difficulty in acquiring the wider aspects afterwards. There are many theoretical educationists who will not agree with me. I wonder what the parents and the teachers think.

I think we should endeavour to ensure that the programmes in both the secondary and the primary schools are adjusted to fit the child for his future life. The language that he uses as his ordinary medium of communication should be taught to him in such a way that he will have an accurate knowledge of it, together with an insistence on good writing, good spelling and facility in expression. He should be taught elementary mathematics so that he will have a complete mastery of them. The same object should be pursued in relation to whatever other subjects he is taught.

It is largely a question of balance. I have compared the old system and the new. I believe there has been a tendency towards correcting the balance over the last ten years. It is a national failing on our part to try to evade detail. I think it is a failing of all imaginative people. Some corrective is necessary in relation to education. Most of my remarks apply to the training of the child in the secondary school. It must be remembered that the primary school is really the basis of that training. In the primary school, too, it is essential that there should be more emphasis laid on the importance of detail, concentration and the prosecuting of something to a definite conclusion.

People who talk about education often fall into the error of being too specialised in their thinking about it. For that very reason they suffer from the defects to which all specialists are prone. Do we ever sufficiently consider the point of view and the problems of the average teacher and the average parent? What does the parent want from education for his child? I think the parent wants, first of all, that fundamental background to which I have referred. He wants the child equipped to face life. From that point of view that basic equipment is in reality the ordinary elementary subjects learned in the way that I have mentioned.

What about the teacher? I have often wondered have we considered enough the teacher's practical problems in some of our general directions and in the ideas that have been thrown at our teachers from time to time. Now, I am thinking rather of the individual teacher, the teacher with practical problems in his school rather than teachers as a body expressing themselves collectively.

Mr. Hickey

Are not their ideas based on tradition rather than on changing circumstances?

Major de Valera

Whose ideas?

Mr. Hickey

The teachers' ideas.

Major de Valera

That is one of the interesting points. There is nobody who would have such a grasp of what the exact moment requires as the actual man who has a class before him, who has a particular set of children before him to teach, and who is engaged in imparting knowledge to them in a particular set of circumstances. There is nobody likely to have such a grasp of what the problem is, and what are the methods of attacking it as that particular man. It is in that sense that I suggest that, perhaps, we have not been as close to the teachers in our thinking as we might have been. However, I content myself merely with making that suggestion to the Minister as another point of balance.

I think I will conclude with what I have to say on this generally. As I said the last day—Deputy Collins is here now—I had no intention of wandering into that line at all, but some of his remarks were responsible for the reply. Now, there is another aspect of education. I have mentioned it already in one connection and I mention it again.

Mr. S. Collins

In what sense does the Deputy hold me guilty of that?

Major de Valera

I suggest to the Deputy that he should read his own speech. The point is this—the importance of vocational training and of vocational education. I have mentioned it already from the point of view of our teachers, but from the point of view of training technicians in this country—I am using it in the very broadest sense—of training people in the modern sense to be fitted to carry out whatever trade or calling they are following in the most efficient manner. From that point of view, modern industry and modern agriculture make certain demands. It is to be noted that already in other countries certain difficulties have arisen. It would take too long now to digress on that completely, but some of those difficulties have largely arisen, I grant you, from the armament drive and research

In the case of a man of that sort, basically there are two problems involved. There is, first of all, the problem of producing the research man of the director type. He needs a pretty broad education. One of the things that were found to be at fault in certain places, in America anyway, was that in an effort to get specialists quickly there was over specialisation at too early a date. Consequently, the education of those people was found to be deficient. That, I suppose, is a problem for our universities, but, so far as the Minister's Department is concerned, there is the problem of supplying to our industries, in so far as they want him, that type of man, and then, on top of that, there is the question of technicians; that is the man who is trained in a particular line, more narrowly but in greater detail to operate plant and carry out certain processes and so forth. The training of such personnel is indispensable in modern organisation, and if we are to go ahead with industrial expansion here some provision will be necessary.

It is to be noted that elsewhere there seems to be a shortage in some particular lines of people trained in that way. It is a matter that we might be thinking about in this country. The obvious way to deal with any deficiency that there may be in that particular category is through our vocational education establishments. I would merely like to point out that there is an important future for that side of education here—that is if we are to succeed in developing this country in many ways in which it should be developed.

Mr. Desmond

The few remarks which I propose to offer on this Estimate will naturally be more or less based on what my own experience has been, as well as on the views of pupils coming out of our primary schools. I believe it is essential for us to try to get back in our own minds to the time when the students or pupils leaving the national schools in rural Ireland were able to travel further afield without, perhaps, ever having a thought in their minds of entering the doors of either a secondary school or a college. We must realise that if there were boys and girls in rural Ireland educated solely by a national schoolteacher able to travel from this country and able to hold their own in those days against the very hardest competition, either in this country or in other countries, then there must be something lacking in the present system which was so manifest and so noticeable in the past. We all know, of course, that through force of circumstances many of our young men and women educated in our national schools had to go to America, for instance. We realise that when they did go they were able to avail of whatever opportunities came their way. They were able to do that because the foundation of their education had been well laid in the national schools of this country. The standard of education which they received at that time was such that they were able to avail of any opportunities which presented themselves to them in America or elsewhere, and thereby proved themselves to be a credit both to their own people and their own country.

If we are to base any discussion on education in the national schools in rural Ireland, I believe that, first of all, we must lay particular stress on the condition of the schools where the pupils do their studies. Some of us were educated in national schools that were anything but a credit to the country. It is certainly trying on boys and girls to work in schools, so many of which are so dilapidated and so ill-kept. That, in itself, is certainly no incentive to the average boy or girl to settle down to the many problems placed before him or her by the teacher. I agree that improvements have been noticeable for some years past in the way of providing new national schools. A certain number of the schools have been renovated. It is appalling, I believe, that we should have to admit that such a large percentage of our national school buildings are in a disgraceful condition. I wonder is that due to the fact that there is not a full sense of understanding and co-operation—if there is not, I would not say that it is intentional —between the central authorities, the Department responsible, the local authorities and the local managers. If there is not that full sense of understanding and co-operation, I believe that, even at this stage, we should attempt immediately to try to get it, in view of the fact that it is so essential.

I will be quite candid in speaking on this. I have in mind one school building in the County Cork. I have had occasion to ask questions in the Dáil about it over the past few years. I want to say here openly that, while there has been a very long delay and no attempt, so far, to go on with the building, I honestly believe myself that most of the responsibility for that delay rests locally with the people responsible, and not with the Department. Even if we are so insistent at times on blaming a Department of State, we must be prepared to blame other people no matter who they are if the blame should justly be placed upon those people. I believe that that insistence is essential at the very start because the lives of these children, both from a mental and a physical viewpoint, are vitally concerned, and they must be educated in decent surroundings and in decent buildings.

Apart from the question of badly kept and dilapidated school buildings, we have the terrible problem of the very bad system of sanitary arrangements throughout rural Ireland. It is not impossible, no matter what anyone may say, to provide adequate sanitary arrangements in those buildings. If, for instance, certain sections of the community obtain, as they are justly entitled to obtain, grants for the provision of water supplies, etc., we should also be prepared to provide a proper water supply and decent sanitary arrangements in every national school building. We know, of course, at the outset that money is the problem in many of these cases. Unless we base a scheme for the eradication of such conditions in these schools on a fairly long-term policy it would cost an enormous amount of money. Yet if we adopted a scheme which would make certain improved facilities available it could be said that some progress had been made. We realise that the sanitary authorities and the architectural experts have their viewpoint. When it is suggested that certain sanitary arrangements should be provided for the schools the architect who is called in on the job, whether he is an outside man or employed as an architect in the Board of Works, will start off with plans that will cost a huge amount of money, but surely when we understand that because so much money is involved there is a danger that nothing may be done, we should be prepared to say that to bring about a certain degree of improvement in those conditions would at least be an attempt to remedy the present unsatisfactory state of some of these school buildings and make them a little more comfortable for those affected. We must admit that although it is desirable to have the most up-to-date sanitary arrangements in old school buildings, some of these buildings are in such a very poor state that it might not be so advantageous to spend a large amount in renovating them. However, we should at least endeavour to ease the position to some extent.

In this connection I will say again that in any attempted drive in that direction we would be entitled to expect both the local authorities and the manager responsible for the school to throw their weight into this important subject with us. I am not always in favour of large amounts of money being expected from local parishes towards contributions for various projects. When you know from experience the way of life and the standard of income of people living in a parish, you realise how hard it is for them to pay money for these projects, but I sincerely believe that the average family in rural Ireland would be prepared to throw in their 6d. or 1/- a week for a certain period towards funds to be raised locally by the responsible manager if the local authorities were also empowered, and not just empowered but compelled, to see that sanitary conditions would be at least adequate. But they cannot do that unless the Minister for Education and his Department give a lead to those people. They must tell those people that while so much must be expected from them, the lead will be given by the Department but that only on consideration of the local contributions being offered and secured by the Department would the work be carried on.

Another matter I wish to mention is one to which I have referred on previous occasions on this Estimate. It is one on which I have very strong views and that is the question of school books. I cannot understand why a boy or a girl has to get so many school books at the start of the school term. The parents may have to pay anything from 10/- to £1 or 30/- or even more. That child goes through the whole term studying from the school books provided and the teacher will spend his or her time explaining the problems to that student. Yet the following year, when there may be another member of the family stepping into the class from which the older boy or girl is leaving, that self-same text-book must be scrapped. Why is that? I believe there is some undercurrent or ring operating in this country whereby school books must be changed year after year. Some of us even in this House, who have our education solely from national schools, can recall that books that we used were also used by members senior to us in our own families. If, in our time, it was possible for such a system to operate, why is it that fathers and mothers of young families are being fleeced continually year after year, that books, having been in use for 12 months, must be scrapped because, while they are apparently suitable for one certain year and for one certain pupil, the next member of the family, perhaps 12 months afterwards, is told: "The book that your sister had is not sufficient. Go and get your father and mother to fork out more money." I would be anxious that the Minister would do his utmost at least to have this matter investigated.

As I said previously, it is not a new system that is operating since the present Minister took office. The same system was in operation while the last Minister was in office and also before his time again. Because it is going on so long and because I myself, as one member, and any other member that mentioned it, never received satisfactory replies from the Minister that we must keep on urging a remedy to the problem. Many of us must have in our minds the firm conviction that it is because it suits certain people, certain booksellers, that this system is continuing in operation.

Deputy de Valera touched on one point on this subject which I intended to mention and which I believe it is vitally important to discuss. I believe it is essential that there should be an agricultural bias or slant attached to teaching in rural Ireland, at any rate. Many of the subjects that are being taught are advantageous in themselves. Year after year continuous complaints are being offered about the emigration of boys, girls, men and women from rural Ireland. In my view, we are encouraging them to leave the rural areas because they are not being given any information which would help them towards a higher and better standard of living in their native districts. If we are to get boys and girls interested in settling in rural Ireland, when they reach manhood, economic conditions must be such as to satisfy them that they will be able to make a livelihood there. In boyhood and girlhood they must be taught to realise the true value of country life. People living in towns and cities, and I have in mind some residents of Cork City, come out to the country and say to us: "How do you ever live in the country?" They offer continuous complaints about country life and they are sincere in their complaints and mean no harm by them. They do not realise that they could be made to understand the advantages attached to country life. It is only by giving people a full understanding of that peace and happiness which rural life can offer, if economic conditions are favourable, that they will realise the advantages that can be attached to such a life. I believe that we should go back to the system of pointing out to the boys and girls that all around them in the countryside is something which they can never get in the cities and towns, no matter what they may be told about the lights, the beautiful conditions, and all the advantages attached to these places. I feel certain that every member of this House, irrespective of his Party, is anxious to see the economic conditions in rural Ireland improved. However, even if economic standards of life there were better, they would serve no useful purpose unless the inhabitants of rural areas were given a true philosophy based on a full understanding of what country life has to offer them, if they would only remain in their native places.

Mention was made of the national school teacher. Deputy de Valera, when speaking about the national school teacher, said that he had in mind the individual himself or herself rather than the collective body. This is what I have in mind also. I am aware that one of the biggest drawbacks in our educational system at the present time is the worry of teachers about the examination system. In national schools, where there may be large numbers of pupils, one may find a few boys and girls who may be much higher in their standard than the others because they may be more brilliant than the average pupil. That in itself, of course, is an incentive for the teacher to do his utmost so that those boys and girls may get places, as it were, in life. In my view, our educational system is wrong in so far as everything else in the classroom is subordinated to the forthcoming examination. Year after year the teacher must try to base his views on specific questions set down in examination papers for some years past. Because the teacher is anxious to have his pupils succeed in an examination, he must keep them within a narrow channel. He must dispense with any teaching which does not cover questions on which the examination may be based. I am not going to discuss those who prepare the question papers; that is another subject. Perhaps they have set views because they are anxious that the children taking the examination, by being narrowed into this channel of education, will strike a certain line later on in life. However, if the children had to do less examinations and were, instead, given a broader outlook in general education, we would be far better off in this country. I will mention one point just as an instance. I came across a little girl the other evening—a little relation of my own, just nine years old. She was doing some arithmetic, and she asked me to help her out. I found that this little girl had an excellent knowledge of her tables. Her difficulty was that her tables were in Irish while the arithmetic she had to do was in English, and though she knew her tables perfectly she was not able to translate them into English. If that child and other children are confined to a channel in which they will have to study papers dealing with certain examinations, it is no use for us to say that they can be given the broader and the truer sense of education which we all desire.

I would suggest, though it may not be possible, that a system should be operated by which the results of the examinations, even of inspectors, would be based on the over-all intelligence of pupils in each class in each school. I would go further so far as the teacher in rural Ireland is concerned. I would go so far as to offer, by way of encouragement, to that teacher and to the children, be they boys or girls, substantial prizes for a group of parishes offering the best school having the best classes on all subjects. That means that one or two children, who may be more intelligent than the others, would not be picked out for special mention but that the report would be based on the children as a whole. That may not be possible, but surely something along those lines should be done rather than continue our present system. What is happening in schools in rural Ireland at the present time is that one or two children who are inclined to be brilliant are picked out for special attention. All effort is concentrated on them so as to get them through the examinations. Unfortunately, the other children throw in the sponge, as it were. They anxiously await the day when they can leave school.

As I mentioned at the outset of my remarks, when these children have finished school they are completely at a loss to know what they are going to do with their lives. I know, of course, that this is correct but I have no intention of moving away from the subject under discussion because it is confined to primary teachers and education. However, I believe, as Deputy de Valera believes, that we should have a discussion, as we will have, as to whether there could be a slight preparation in the national schools for the possibility of technical education at a later stage. This would improve the outlook educationally of our children. and I believe that that in itself would act as an encouragement to the fathers and mothers of these children. It would show them that there would be an opening in life for their families very different from the opening at the present time.

Fathers and mothers are anxious, if they can manage it at all, to send a son or daughter into a commercial school in Cork City, but the market is often so overcrowded, the competition so keen, and, to be frank, the wages in some offices of such a standard, that it would not pay a boy or girl from the countryside to take up such employment. When these children grow up and find that there is no possibility of getting into such branches of employment in their own country, they must set off for the cities or across the water.

If we are prepared, as we must be, to try to give them that broader sense of educational understanding of life, we must be ready to offer even radical changes, and, in offering these changes, we must take the national school teacher into our confidence. We, all of us, at one time thought that our biggest enemy was the national school teacher—when we were kids and had to hold out our hands so often—but later we came to realise that they are human beings like Deputy MacCarthy or Deputy Palmer and that their anxiety is to do their utmost for the boys and girls under them to help them to face a future life. We must be willing to take these teachers into our confidence and to listen to their suggestions and even to their complaints. They are on the spot, as Deputy de Valera said and they realise the advantages and disadvantages of the system. It is essential for us to concentrate on building a higher standard of education and, with co-operation from the teachers, I believe that we will have less complaints from fathers and mothers— genuine complaints—in the future. Co-operation must come from the local people as well as from the Department. It must come from the local authority and the manager. With that co-operation provided a lead is given by the Department we will, I hope, at least be setting out on the road to a better standard in our primary schools, which mean so much to the boys and girls of the country.

Seán Mac Carthaigh

Ba mhaith liom a rá i dtosach go bhfuil áthas ar gach duine agus go bhfuil gach duine sásta leis an méid oibre atá déanta ag an Aire fhaid is atá sé i gceannas Roinne an Oideachais sa tír seo. Do chaith sé a shaol féin i sráidbhaile i nDeisceart na hÉireann agus tá fhios aige go maith an saghas scoileanna a bhí ann le linn a shaoil féin agus atá ann fé láthair, agus ina theannta sin téann sé timpeall i gcónaí go dtí na bun-scoileanna agus na meán-scoileanna agus chíonn sé na scoláirí ag obair. Chíonn sé na droch-thithe atá ann agus scoil mar ainm orthu agus na scoileanna nua atá á dtógaint ag an Roinn agus ag na sagairt paróiste fé láthair.

Ins an Samhradh, téann sé timpeall arís go dtí na coláistí agus chíonn sé iontu na scoláirí a fuair scoláireachtaí as na bun-scoileanna agus na scoileanna eile, agus dá bhrí sin níl aon bhrainse den oideachas nach bhfuil eolas maith ag an Aire air. Tá sé ag déanamh a dhíchill chun gach rud a chur i dtreo agus a chur chun cinn chomh mear agus is féidir leis agus sin rud maith, nach bhfuil aon mhoill ann nuair is féidir leis an Aire feabhas a chur ar an obair agus é a chur chun cinn.

Is maith an rud é go bhfuil na múinteoirí sásta leis agus go bhfuilid sásta go gcuireann sé suim ina gcuid oibre agus go bhfuil ar aigne aige an caighdeán oideachais atá sa tír seo bheith chomh ard agus atá sé in aon tír eile ar fud an domhain. Dá bhrí sin, níl puinn le rá agam ach amháin é seo: pé athrú is ceart dúinn a chur ann fé láthair, go scrúdaíonn an tAire é go maith agus le cúnamh Dé agus le cabhair ó gach duine, beidh toradh maith ar a chuid oibre.

I should like to preface my remarks by saying that, since the present Minister took charge of the direction of education in this country, he has given encouragement and confidence to those who are engaged in that high and holy work. That, in the first instance, is a great encouragement to those who are engaged in what is indeed a hard and difficult work. Growing up as he did, knowing the villages, the rural areas and the schools that were there in his early years—which we all remember—he has as a fundamental background for his examination of the problems of education in his own experience, the faults and merits of the various aspects of the educational system. He has seen the bad schools and he is doing his best to remedy them as speedily as possible, to give them the amenities that should be theirs, to see that the school building should be an outstanding building in each parish, that it should be a centre of education and culture for which both the parents and the students would have a high regard, of which they would be proud as the place where the pupils are fitted out with a certain competence in life.

As far as primary education is concerned, we have had the experience of teachers who have been abroad. Some of us from time to time who have travelled and have taken an interest in similar schools in other lands are convinced that our standards here are as good as they are in any comparable country in the world, even in countries far bigger than ours and with greater financial resources. Perhaps sometimes those who have recourse to cities may be a bit brighter than those who have been educated in some country schools. They may make a better show at examinations and may have the advantage of experience in some respects, but it is certain that the rural children are as fundamentally sound and as well able to face life in the educational sphere as those in most other countries.

A council of education has been sitting for some time and has been considering the programme for the national schools. I do not think there is very much wrong with the programmes. Perhaps, as Deputy Desmond has said, most people will agree that in the rural schools there should be some education in rural science which applies to the life in the country around them, in local history, the national monuments in the area and so on. That is a thing that Padraig Pearse when he wrote "The Murder Machine" had in mind, when he spoke of freedom for the teacher and freedom for the scholars. If the teacher wishes on a very warm day to take the children for a little walk to a nearby castle or abbey, to make the history of the locality more vivid, and if an inspector comes along and finds the teacher should have been doing arithmetic or something else, then, if he is doing useful work and can stand over what he is doing, it should be all right. That is a case where too much rigidity should not be insisted upon. It is not education to be all the time with your nose to the grindstone, that you must be doing arithmetic from 10.30 till 11 a.m. and if you are stuck in the middle of a problem or if the children are specially interested and you carry on until 11.15 and the inspector walks in when you should have been at geography or something else, that there is an adverse paragraph written in the report about it. There should be more freedom for the teacher.

The primary certificate entails an examination now in the primary schools and it is looked upon as the aim of primary education to get pupils to obtain this particular certificate. I was speaking to some parents recently, very intelligent people, and they said that their children were better educated before the primary certificate was introduced and that they are quite convinced of that. They said that when it came along first they were quite satisfied that, as somebody said, it would set a standard and would show the pupil had qualified in a certain course. Perhaps the primary certificate should not be entirely condemned or at least an examination at the end of the primary course. What I say about it is that it is quite unreasonable to expect that every child in the school on reaching that standard should be compelled to undergo an examination in every subject, even a subject for which he has no taste and in which he is not competent.

In the secondary schools there are more or less selected pupils. At any rate, there is a selection in other schools and from different walks of life, where they are going forward through education to get a position that education will help them to secure. In the national schools, however, you have everybody who is striving to get a fundamental grasp of the basis of education which will enable them to go about their ordinary working business. Some pupils are not good at arithmetic and as everyone knows we very often find that those who are good at arithmetic are not so good at literature and those who are good at literature are not good at mathematics, though you might find an exception. It certainly discourages a pupil who may be good at some subjects to be put in for an examination in all the branches. Why not let him do, for the primary certificate, apart from the fundamentals just the particular subjects for which he is fitted? In the secondary schools and other schools you have a pass paper and an honours paper. If the primary certificate is to continue, why not have a pass paper and an honours paper in the same way, so that those who are not as good as the others may have an opportunity of taking a pass paper in one subject and an honours paper in another according to their ability? That will give them encouragement that they are not working as cogs in a machine but that their capabilities and capacity are being taken into account and that they are being catered for in their own particular sphere.

Deputy Desmond has spoken about the books and their cost and the reason for the change in books. We all know that in our own days the books passed down as a kind of heirloom through all the members of the family and the same books did for any school. The reason was perfectly obvious. The system of education then was designed to do one thing: it was designed to teach us English and to get away from Irish. They kept a standard set of books and when a boy went to school he learned off by heart: "Jack has got a cart and can draw sand and clay in it," or something like that, but ask him to pick out the particular words and he would not be able to do it. They learned these lessons by rote and their parents before them had the same lessons and so had even the senior members of the family and all were able to recite them. That is how they got the English into the schools in our father's time and even in our own early days, even to the exclusion of the Irish language.

I often advocate that we should have a standard set of books in Irish for a number of years until the pupils get a grip of the language. In the Gaeltacht they could depart from that but in other areas they should stick to those standard books at least for a few years. It was most discouraging in years gone by, and even up to the present to some extent, when a pupil learning Irish came across words spelled in a particular way on one page and on the next page, where the lesson was by a different writer, the same words were spelled differently.

Deputy O'Donnell said that there are three Irish dialects and that the Minister did not speak in any of them —that he spoke more or less what was known as official Irish, whatever that may be. Some of us have travelled all over Ireland. We have been in Irish colleges and have met people from all parts of the country. The differences between the dialects in Irish are no more acute than they are between the dialects of the spoken language anywhere in any country—England, France, even America, where there may be a different type of slang in the North and in the South—but the fundamentals of the spoken language are similar. The Irish language is rich in dialect and vocabulary. Anybody who criticises the use of a dialect or the blending of dialects is doing no service to the language, because the language is intrinsically the same in the north, south, east or west. Whatever little peculiarities we may have we have them in our nature as well as in our dialects. Anybody can appreciate that fact.

With regard to books, the standardisation of spelling is a great advance. The spelling has been standardised up to the third or fourth class but has not yet, I think, been standardised in the higher standards. It is not so important there because the reading is more varied.

I have referred already to the changing of books. That is due to the grouping of classes In our young days classes were not grouped except for singing and one or two other subjects. There was no grouping, say, of the first and second class, the third and fourth, and fifth and sixth, for reading. If the same book were kept on for a second year one group of children would be repeating for a second year the book they had learned in the previous year, which would not be to their advantage and which would be monotonous. There is this further difficulty, that some pupils are kept for a second year in a class. They would be studying the same book again. Education must be made varied and attractive for those who are not very smart, just as for those who are bright.

Deputy Desmond mentioned arithmetic. Inspectors and teachers will tell you that a completely satisfactory arithmetic for the primary school has never yet been published. Arithmetics used contain such problems as: "Find the cost of 27 horses at £84 17s. 6½d. each." Who ever bought a horse and paid prices like that? These problems have no relation to life. I would suggest that an arithmetic should be compiled having a certain number of mental exercises at the beginning in Irish and in English, followed by a certain number of written exercises, and then followed by a number of problems in the particular process in Irish and in English. At this stage all the arithmetics should be bilingual, with Irish and English on every successive page. The time has come for it. I would not have long obscure questions of three or four lines. The questions should be simply put so that the children will understand the Irish word for "multiply", "divide", "add", "subtract", "buy", "sell", and these other everyday terms. It should not be complicated. The exercises should be set in a simple way that the children understand from their knowledge of the language.

A very good feature of education is the granting of scholarships to summer colleges. The Gaelic Athletic Association must get its meed of credit in that respect. Colleagues of mine, Séamus Long and Seán Óg Ó Murchadha and others, were interested in that matter and promoted scholarships which were confined to children who played in the school shield teams or in minor competitions, and so on. They are continuing to fill some of the summer Irish colleges in that way. Games and education are combined and the children get a knowledge of the country and associate with pupils from various parts of the country. It is admirable work. I was very glad to see that after his appointment as Minister one of the first things the Minister did was to pay an official visit to some of these colleges where pupils of that kind were fruitfully spending their holidays.

The next matter with which I would like to deal is vocational education. Wonderful strides are being made in vocational education. Everybody is delighted with the progress that is being made. Apart from the work of the schools, which is excellent, there is a link-up now between the vocational schools and industries. That link is becoming more extended year by year. There is a link between the schools and the Motor Traders' Association. On the domestic side, the gas companies give prizes for cooking. The millers also give prizes. This co-operation between the vocational schools and industry is one of the most encouraging developments in education in recent years. There had been a tendency to stress unduly the purely academic side of education, to prepare pupils for the leaving certificate examination. Having passed that examination, the pupils tried to get into the Civil Service or into local government positions, the Electricity Supply Board and other Government or semi-Government organisations. They would continue at school up to the age of 17 or 18 years and, if they failed to obtain appointments in such concerns, they were not qualified for commercial offices because they had not shorthand and typewriting, or book-keeping. They were unfit for legal offices or positions of that kind and at that stage they had to learn shorthand, typewriting or book-keeping or just emigrate, because they were untrained to work with their hands. We were training too many pupils on these lines for the opportunities subsequently offering. One can imagine the disappointment to their parents afterwards.

I remember the case of one boy who obtained honours at his leaving certificate examination and at 24 years of age he never had got a day's work. He subsequently got along all right but one can imagine the early disappointment which his parents must have experienced after having had such high hopes of him in his schooldays. We hear a good deal about juvenile delinquency and of young lads roaming about the roads at a critical period in their lives. I do not know what suggestion we could make to deal with that problem but, at any rate, the development of vocational training is bound to give us a better balance at that age. The teachers in schools, such as for instance the North Monastery school in Cork, will be able to advise certain of their pupils: "You would be better off in the technical school; I do not think you would make the grade in the leaving certificate". That is a system of advice and training that we ought to encourage.

So far as higher education is concerned, I think the standard is really very good but the question arises as to whether or not in the promotion of the Irish language we should have oral examinations for secondary schools. It would be rather difficult to examine all the pupils orally in Irish. At the same time, it used to be done at one time in the colleges. There was an oral examination in those subjects and a reversion to that system might be worth considering. We hear some people saying the Irish language is not making good progress. I can never agree with such people. I think it is making wonderful progress. No doubt the number of people in the Gaeltacht is declining, but if the people who leave the Gaeltacht go to some other part of the country, they are not a loss to the nation and they know quite well that their children will be encouraged to speak the language in the schools. If they go abroad, of course, they are a very serious loss to the country.

In that regard, I think the extension of the amenities of life, such as the Electricity Supply Board services, available in the more populous districts, to Gaeltacht areas would do much to induce people to remain there. I have advocated before that instead of erecting large vocational schools, which may be all right for big towns we might adopt a scheme in rural parishes whereby one additional room would be added to the national school in each parish. This room could be utilised for instruction in woodwork, rural science and domestic science and music on alternate nights. It is far easier to arrange to have teachers travel around to these schools than to have the pupils travelling long distances. It would not, of course, be advisable to have the instruction given at night in rooms that had been occupied by children during the day. In the first place, it would not be so hygienic as if extra rooms were available for this instruction. If such rooms are available, they can be thoroughly ventilated during the day and I believe you would get better results. Irish classes could also be held in these schools at night. There would be a kind of continuation school, so to speak, in each district so that the language learned in the primary schools would not be lost. At intervals there would be an Irish dance or song—a blend of cultural and social life as the evening went by. The Minister was in Cork recenly at a Cór-Fhéile in which all the pupils of the city schools participated. It was conducted on a non-competitive basis and no prizes were awarded. The entertainment lasted for a week and consisted of songs in our own language as well as an occasional song in other tongues. Four thousand children from the national schools participated in that Cór-Fhéile which was a magnificent success. The city hall was filled night after night for the whole week. The Minister was present at the opening entertainment which was held on the Sunday evening in the Savoy cinema. It was a most exhilarating experience for all who had the good fortune to be present at these entertainments and the teachers and pupils of the schools which participated are deserving of the highest approbation.

There is one other matter to which I should like to refer although I do not think that, strictly speaking, it comes under the Minister's Estimate. Even though we have a certain number of agricultural schools in the country such as Darraragh, Glasnevin and Athenry, and a dairy science school in Cork which caters just for the dairying industry—creameries, milk and butter production, etc.—we have no faculty of agriculture in this agricultural country. There is no faculty of agriculture in any of our universities where a person could take out a comprehensive degree in agriculture. We have, of course, faculties covering medicine and various other professions although many of the graduates with such degrees subsequently go abroad. I think that agriculture should be put on a pedestal at least as high as that of the other faculties in our universities. At least in Cork and Galway, there should be a special faculty of agriculture so that those who are trained in the various agricultural colleges throughout the country would have an opportunity by means of scholarships or otherwise, of high qualifications and knowledge of our basic industry.

I must congratulate the Minister on his efforts in getting the electrical engineering faculty established in Cork University College. We hear a lot of talk about centralisation nowadays but heretofore it was necessary for students from Cork to come for their third and fourth year courses to an already overcrowded city here in Dublin. Apart from that, only a certain number, not more than perhaps five or six, would be accepted in Dublin in that particular branch. The building to be erected in the near future will be of permanent local value and will remain there to the Minister's credit in years to come. Work like that is of genuine permanent national benefit.

With co-operation and goodwill, this country, which had such a name in the past for learning and culture and the love of education which its people had down through the ages, will again in the general standards which are set before the people in the educational sphere keep those higher ideals of faith and nationality which a nation should cherish, with love for its history and for its patriots. I think the present system of education, the present system of managership of schools, where proper co-operation is shown, will tend to bring out in the people of our nation the high ideals which are the rich heritage of the nation, so that the minds, bodies and souls of the people will be adapted to the tradition that years of struggle have brought down to them for their edification. The present Minister is working on right lines, and with these remarks I close by saying: Beannacht Dé ar an obair.

Mr. Cogan

I think it will be agreed that the present Minister for Education is fortunate inasmuch as he commands the goodwill of most people in this country.

Notice taken that 20 Deputies were not present; House counted and 20 Deputies being present,

Mr. Cogan

The high opinions which most people have of the present Minister were also shared to a considerable extent by his predecessor. I for one had a very considerable admiration for the Minister's predecessor, and I believe that, like the present Minister, he set himself a very high ideal in regard to education. I feel that perhaps he did not succeed in achieving everything he set out to do, but I must say that it was not for the want of effort. I sincerely hope that the present Minister will be long enough in office to achieve the high ideals he has set himself and that when he retires he will have solved or gone a certain distance towards solving all the difficulties which face him and which face the educational system in this country.

It is not true to say that everything is bad in the educational sphere. I do not entirely agree with the very optimistic attitude of the last speaker, Deputy MacCarthy. I know that he is quite sincere in the views he has expressed, but I think he was looking entirely at the bright side of the picture. There is, however, another side of the picture. There is on one side the students who have succeeded, the minority who have gone to the top, who, in every sphere, have made a success of their lives. There is on the other side the large number who have failed to achieve very much in life, the large number who cannot find a livelihood in this country, the large number who cannot find a satisfactory means of livelihood here, and the large number who face life ill-equipped. We ought to make up our minds that in our educational system we shall strive to improve matters. Even if it is as good as Deputy MacCarthy said, there is always room for improvement and it is on these lines that we have to think.

I should like to see the young primary teachers coming together, just as the young farmers are coming together, trying to find ways and means of improving the educational system, of improving the standard of education in their schools. They are the people who can do it, not the people at the head of the Department or even the Minister. With zeal and enthusiasm on the part of our teachers, particularly the younger teachers, much good can be achieved.

In his opening statement the Minister remarked, and it is no harm to make a passing comment on it, that through organisation and improved methods he has been able to reduce the staff of his Department by four. I was wondering by what process these four were eliminated. I assume at least that they were not taken out and shot. It is satisfactory, however, to find that in one Department an effort is being made to carry out the work which is being done with a lesser staff through improved organisational methods. That is something which deserves being commented upon, because it is something which we hope every Minister will try to achieve within his Department. A lot has been said during the past month or two about the burdens which have been placed on the taxpayer. The only way to relieve these burdens to any extent is by reducing expenditure and that can only be done by ever-increasing efficiency. Even though the results in this Department may appear to be small it is satisfactory to see that a step has been taken in that direction.

The Minister in his introductory statement commented on the fact that the Council of Education at the moment are grappling with the problems of primary education. Their operations are being conducted under two headings—(1) the function of primary education and (2) the curriculum to be pursued in the primary schools up to the age of 12 years. It is evident from this that the Council of Education are not completely satisfied with the progress being made in regard to primary education and that they have some hope that improvements can be achieved. I think there are sound reasons for suggesting that a change of programme in the primary schools should be introduced in or about the age of 12 years. The education of children under the age of 12 years should be confined, in the main, to the three R's—to getting a clear and firm grasp of the fundamental educational subjects, reading, writing and arithmetic. These ought to be instilled into the minds of the younger children. It is not essential that children should at an early age acquire a large volume of knowledge but they should master completely what they are taught so that they can go forward towards advanced education or through life itself with a feeling of confidence and self-assurance. That is the first essential in education.

It might be desirable to introduce something in the form of technical education or agricultural education, if you like, into the primary schools for children who have reached 12 years of age. At the age of 12 children are beginning to take a keen interest in life. They are beginning to be naturally inquisitive in regard to life. It is at that age that I think they should be introduced to even an elementary outline of vocational education. It is particularly necessary that stress should be laid upon agricultural education or rural science. Even in the towns and cities, a certain amount of such knowledge should be imparted to children. It may be said that if you introduce a subject such as rural science into the primary schools you are cutting in on the time allotted to the ordinary educational subjects. The amount of time required need not be very great. Even one or two hours per week would be sufficient if the teacher is enthusiastic in imparting this knowledge.

The Minister, in concluding his opening statement, said: "I have nothing startling to record." It is time a Minister for Education had something startling to record. In to-day's papers we read that the Coadjutor Bishop of Cork, the Most Reverend Dr. Lucey, has something very startling to record particularly as far as rural Ireland is concerned. He is reported in to-day's Irish Independent as saying: “Rural Ireland is stricken and dying. The will to marry and live on the land is almost gone.” I think those words are a serious reflection on our primary education, on our educational system generally and, as a matter of fact, on our entire economic system.

Mr. Hickey

His statement is based on fact.

Mr. Cogan

It is absolutely true. It is unnecessary to say so because the Most Reverend Dr. Lucey is one of those men who have studied the social problems affecting our people, and particularly the problems of rural Ireland, most intensively over a long period. There can be no question whatever about the truth of the statement. Rural Ireland will continue to decline unless something startling is done to change the attitude of our people towards life and towards rural life generally.

Mr. S. Collins

Towards Dublin.

Mr. Cogan

That is why I say it is satisfactory to see that the Council of Education are grappling with this problem. If we can, even in our primary schools, instil into the minds of children over 12 years of age a bias towards rural life, towards agriculture, towards growing plants, towards animals and all the things that make up life on the land, we will achieve something of merit.

It has been said that the old hedge schools were, in some ways, more successful, in spite of all the handicaps they had to contend with, than are our primary schools to-day. I do not entirely agree with that statement but certainly it is true that the hedge schools achieved remarkable results. It may be that those hedge schools were closer to the life of the people, closer to the land, to the animals and to the plants. I am not, of course, referring to the ash plant which might, possibly, have had some influence on the educational system. Education as we know it is not tending to make our young people desirous of living in rural Ireland and I think it is well that an effort should be made to change that situation.

The Minister, in his statement, referred to the fact that an experiment has been tried out during the past year in conjunction with Macra na Feirme, the Young Farmers' Clubs, with a view to instilling into the minds of young children a greater interest in rural life. He stated that a project is on foot to assist and encourage young boys, and I assume young girls also, to own and rear some animal on their homesteads with a view to making them more interested in rural life. I think that, as time goes on, that idea will achieve results. It is only in its experimental stage now but there is no reason why a boy of 12 or 13 should not be encouraged to own some property, particularly agricultural property or live stock such as a bonham, a lamb or a calf. In that way he would learn at a very early age something of the joys and sorrows and risks of farming. The boy who is given a lamb or a young pig may find that it does not thrive. He may find that it will sicken, that it will die but in that way he is introduced to the problems of agricultural life. In the majority of cases he will find that it will thrive and flourish. In that way the boy will be encouraged to take a keen interest in agricultural life. Where it is not possible for a boy or girl to have live stock of that kind encouragement should be given to him or her to own a little plot of land—just a few square yards—on which to grow plants, vegetables or flowers, thereby giving to our young people at an early age an interest in the land. The Young Farmers' Clubs or the clubs of any other progressive association in the parish can help immeasurably towards the achievement of that idea by encouraging the parents and elder brothers to take an interest in the scheme and make it a success. The Minister alone cannot do it. No scheme of that kind should be put into operation without the co-operation and consent of the parents.

There is one other matter in relation to education generally about which it is necessary to make some comment. I think I have remarked already that a percentage of children fail to make the grade. They do not come out of the primary or secondary schools as good as they ought to. Very often the teachers will say—and, perhaps, truly —that it is because of the training they have received in their homes. No matter how important education is, no matter how important secondary education is, the most important education of all is that which very young children receive in their homes. If the foundations are falsely laid in the home, it will be very, very difficult even for the best teachers in the world and with the best of goodwill to achieve success.

Because of that the problem arises of how to ensure that children will be better taught in their homes. Fundamentally, it would appear that the only way is to start with the children by educating them well so that when they in turn come to be parents they will give good example to their children. I think there is another aspect of this question which has got to be considered and that is the whole problem of adult education.

I notice the Minister made some comment in regard to evening schools. I agree with that comment to a certain extent but I am enthusiastically in favour of evening schools. In so far as those of our children who have not had the opportunity of getting a secondary education are concerned they should have the opportunity, in every district throughout the length and breadth of the land, of attending evening schools, so that, as Deputy MacCarthy pointed out, they can continue learning some of the subjects which they were taught in the primary schools. Those evening schools should be run on an entirely different system from that of the national schools. They would be purely voluntary in the first place and there would be no compulsory attendance. The young people would attend voluntarily and the subjects that they would learn would be voluntary subjects.

For example, an effort should be made to have a course of subjects for two nights each week in the rural areas. Those boys or girls who would not be interested in the subjects on one particular night could attend on the other night. Some might have a deeper interest in Irish, history or subjects of that kind and they would attend on the particular night those classes were being held. Others might be more interested in rural science or woodwork. They would attend on the particular night allocated to those particular subjects. In that way education would be continued on, perhaps, for five or six years after the young people had left the primary schools.

It would become a sort of pastime just as in the days, when the Gaelic League was in the zenith of its power, it was a pastime for so many young people who attended the Gaelic classes. Young people between the ages of 15 and 20 are always anxious to learn. If given the right incentive, instruction and opportunity they will attend, perhaps, not all the classes that are provided but they will attend the particular classes in which they have a particular interest. That is what is needed.

The whole purpose of education, as I see it, should be to give our young people the knowledge that they want and encourage them to want the knowledge that is good for them. In other words, instead of compulsion, instead of dragooning, the whole idea should be to lead the young in the right direction. Here again two questions would arise—in the first place the question of accommodation. It would not be desirable or proper that young people over the school-leaving age should have to attend the night school in the ordinary national schools. That would be bad for the school and in any case I think it would not be desirable because it would be necessary to have a certain amount of paraphernalia for the carrying out of technical or other education.

Therefore, it would be necessary to have additional accommodation. Halls are being provided by voluntary effort in nearly every parish now and there is no reason why these halls should not be used for this particular educational purpose. In the parish in which I live a hall of very fine dimensions was erected recently entirely by voluntary effort of the people. That hall has been and is being used at the moment for evening classes and woodwork. There is no reason why that system should not be extended and made a permanent and continuous feature of our education so that no boy or girl will be forced to go through life, as so many are to-day, entirely dependent upon the knowledge and training that they received in the primary school. That training and knowledge should be supplemented and if a real effort of the kind I have suggested were made that could be done. I am not suggesting that there should be any large State expenditure on this effort in our present financial position. In most cases voluntary effort could provide a local hall suitable for evening classes. I know that there would not be a sufficiency of teachers or instructors to ensure the holding of evening classes in every parish in the country. That would be beyond the capacity of the existing teachers. I think voluntary effort is desirable. The Minister is taking the right course in asking for the co-operation of Macra na Feirme. There are other associations which would also be glad to help. With that voluntary effort, it should be possible to ensure these evening classes on at least two nights each week in every district in the country.

Another suggestion I make is that local educational committees should be established to look after these evening classes. The leading personalities in the district could assist. I am sure the agricultural instructors would give all the help they could. In addition to that Radio Éireann should be harnessed for the purpose of giving lectures and instruction in particular subjects at a certain hour each evening. There is no reason why competent teachers should not be able to provide such lectures over the radio. I do not think we are utilising modern equipment to the extent to which we could utilise it. I think the radio holds out enormous possibilities in relation to instruction in evening schools and it is along such lines we will achieve a forward step in regard to education generally.

Practically all the ordinary subjects could be taught in these evening classes—Irish, English, rural science, history, with particular emphasis on local history, singing, music, civics, engineering and so on. All this would be in addition to the work done in the vocational and technical schools during the day. It is desirable, as the Minister suggested, that employers should release their apprentices for the purpose of permitting them to attend vocational schools during the day. In these day classes they should receive instruction in a wide variety of subjects. The success of Danish economy to-day is largely due to the enthusiasm aroused 60 or 100 years ago in relation to adult education. That education was mainly of a cultural nature. It imbued its recipients with a love of their country, with a desire to improve themselves, their standard of living and their standard of efficiency.

I think there is need here for instilling into the minds of youth a proper sense of citizenship. Good citizenship is most important in the building up of a nation. It is sad to think that there are very few local authorities that can lay out a park or plant trees without the very real fear that their work will be destroyed by young boys in the neighbourhood. I think that is a serious reflection on our educational system. It is the duty of everybody to ensure that respect for property, for authority, for the aged and for the weak is instilled into the minds of our young people. Only in that way will we succeed in making life more pleasant.

Education at the present time is sadly in need of a proper spirit of enthusiasm. I think the Minister will agree that the nation's most important asset is the young people who are just now leaving school. They are the people who have enthusiasm. They are the people who can lift our nation up. When the Minister is introducing his next Estimate I hope he will be able to record a startling improvement in education generally. I hope the Council of Education will make recommendations that are both progressive and practicable.

The Minister was asked a question yesterday about the summer holiday periods. It is a very big question, not perhaps as big as some people would try to make it, but it is, I suppose, important. It is a good thing that the Minister is anxious to consult with the people who are concerned in regard to this matter, and with Deputies of all Parties in regard to the problem.

I understand that there is a demand in some quarters that the summer holidays in the primary schools should coincide entirely and absolutely with the summer holidays in the secondary schools. I would like to say, first of all, that it is a dangerous thing to try to equate two things which are not equal. The conditions under which pupils labour in the primary schools are not exactly similar to the conditions in the secondary schools. If there is a very long holiday period in the secondary schools, it does not follow automatically that there should be an equally long period in the primary schools. We must remember that, in the secondary schools owing to our examining system which has been commented on by other Deputies, the strain and the stress on the pupils at a difficult and perhaps delicate period in their lives is very severe. It is, I think, essential that boys and girls who are doing an intensive course in the secondary schools, and have to compete in very severe competitive examinations, should have a fairly long break so as to enable them to recoup their strength. It is also possible that boys and girls of that age may be able, because of the fact that they have reached a higher age limit, to improve themselves in other ways during the holiday period. Some may assist on their parents' farms during the holiday period or in whatever business the parents are engaged in. Others of them may pursue a summer course, and others, who can afford it, may travel to other countries and thereby gain increased knowledge for themselves.

But when you are dealing with small boys and girls in the primary schools you are dealing with an entirely different proposition. It would be hard, I think, to make the case that they would benefit by a three months' holiday period. It would also be hard to make the case that their parents would really desire to have them running about at large for such a long period. I imagine that it would also be hard to prove that the small boys and girls attending primary schools could, at their age, assist to any great extent in the work on the farm, or in whatever avocation the parents may be engaged in. In addition, there is another question which arises, and that is the effect which a long holiday period would have on the teachers. Even though their remuneration has been improved somewhat in recent years, I doubt if it is sufficient to enable them to save enough money to engage in a holiday lasting three months. I am afraid they would be completely bankrupt by the time it was over. Taking it all round, I think there is not very much of a case for as long a holiday period in the primary schools as there is in the secondary schools. I know that when I was a small boy I looked forward to the six weeks' holiday as something in the nature of half a lifetime. I thought that a holiday of that duration was quite sufficient, and I think that the children of the present day would feel just the same.

There is a tendency, I think, to look upon matters of this kind as they affect the well-to-do sections of the community. I know there are sections of the community who, when their children leave the secondary school, can afford to take a fairly long holiday. I think they are the people who would like to have the children in the primary schools taking their holidays at the same time, but I think that the overwhelming majority of the people are not of the opinion that there should be this long holiday period and, indeed, are not in a position to take advantage of it. Neither do they think that the holiday period in the primary schools and the secondary schools should coincide. I would suggest that the holidays in the primary schools should be taken from the 1st July to the middle of August. Farmers may not agree with that, although I think one would find acceptance for the view now that children attending primary schools to-day cannot assist to the extent that children used to do formerly on the farms, particularly at harvest time. The reason is that farming has become more mechanised than it was when we were children. In the old days, small boys were recruited to tie the corn in the harvest time and did give valuable assistance in those days. At that time, the holiday period in the rural schools, at any rate, was from early in August to the middle of September. The object of that was to cover the harvest period. I would prefer to see the children released from school during the hot days of July.

I have very little to say on the subject of secondary education. I had not the advantage, to use Deputy Everett's phrase on a famous occasion, of a college education. I was sent to harrow at a very early age, and I was promoted to the plough afterwards. I think that, more or less, completed my education. I do think, from the experience I have gathered in regard to the secondary schools, that the people who are engaged in conducting secondary education at the present time, are rendering a great voluntary service to the nation. The secondary schools are, in the main, conducted by religious orders, the members of which have devoted their lives entirely to providing higher and better education for the youth of the country. Their services to the nation, and to education generally, cannot be measured in terms of money. It is generally accepted that the competition at the examinations, both for the intermediate and leaving certificates, is becoming altogether too severe. There is the feeling that there is too much cramming, too much intensive cramming, in preparation for those examinations, and that as a result the opportunity for imparting real education is, to a certain extent, being curtailed. What is the alternative? One alternative would seem to be to trust approved secondary schools to impart the necessary education without having any necessity for a uniform examination standard. I do not know whether or not that is practical. There does not seem to be any reason why, if secondary schools were put on their honour, they would not send forward to the university only those boys and girls who are qualified to go there. In my view, the system of competition as between one school and another—the system of publishing the numbers of boys and girls who have qualified at various examinations is not a good system. I feel that if we are to have real education it ought to be modified in some way. That is all I have to say on this particular subject.

Mr. McQuillan

I did not want to let this opportunity go by without saying a few words on this thorny problem of the revival of the Irish language. I know that when I speak on this particular matter I am bound to make myself open to criticism from some very cranky elements in the country who have taken upon themselves the view that they and they alone are the sole apostles of the revival of the Irish language. Over the past 30 years there has been an annual debate on education in this House. In those various debates many speakers have contributed eloquently to this vexed problem of the revival of Irish. It is my belief that a great deal of humbug and hypocrisy was spoken in the course of those debates. A great deal of humbug and hypocrisy is apparent outside this House with regard to the revival of Irish. I do not want to be taken as being opposed to the revival of Irish and I do not want my words here to be misrepresented. However, I think we should face realities in regard to this matter.

Deputy MacCarthy has suggested in this debate that a great revival has taken place in Irish throughout the last 30 years. I maintain that there has been a greater knowledge of Irish in the last 30 years than prior to that period. There are more people capable of speaking Irish to-day than was the case prior to 1932, but, to my mind, that is not the key to the problem. The success in the revival of the Irish language can be determined to-day by the number who speak it. There are more people in a position to speak our native language at the present time than was the case 30 years ago. Yet, I maintain that no greater numbers speak the language even though they may have a knowledge of it. That is what must be righted; in other words, the spirit necessary for the revival of Irish is missing. The machinery is available in the shape of schools and excellent teachers. Yet, in spite of all that, once the pupils leave school they make little or no attempt to use Irish as an everyday language. I feel that is the problem which needs serious examination.

We all look upon the Gaeltacht areas as the cradle from which the Irish language came, and we maintain that it is from the Gaeltacht areas that Irish must be spread throughout the rest of the country. Deputy MacCarthy for one, has admitted in this House that the numbers in the Gaeltacht areas are dwindling—that the Gaelic population is decreasing. I believe that, as far as the Government and the State are concerned, this should be the danger signal. Surely if the all Irish-speaking people within the Gaeltacht areas are flying from those areas, there must be some contributory causes. In my view, the revival of the Irish language must be co-ordinated with an economic revival in the Gaeltacht areas. I had a quarrel in this House with the Taoiseach on the question of the industrialisation of the Gaeltacht areas.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Surely, that does not arise on this Vote; the Minister for Education is not responsible for the industrialisation of the Gaeltacht.

Mr. McQuillan

I propose to make my remarks relevant to education in Gaeltacht areas. The very fact that the people in the Gaeltacht areas are able to speak Irish does not mean that they are able to eat or live there. In order that they may get work of a permanent or secure nature, the people, who are in possession of the Irish language, must leave the Gaeltacht areas and go elsewhere. I see no reason why the Minister for Education, considering his responsibility for the Gaeltacht areas, should not take an active interest in seeing that industrial development takes place in those areas, so that, thereby, the language can be served.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy can discuss the industrialisation of the Gaeltacht on another Vote. It should not be raised here on this Vote.

Mr. McQuillan

I am not discussing it. I am trying to point out the fact that the more people who leave the Gaeltacht areas, the less chance there is of reviving the Irish language. At the present time the trend for the people in the Gaeltacht areas is to Britain and America, not to other parts of Ireland, as suggested by Deputy MacCarthy. I see nothing whatever wrong in making full employment available in those areas thereby ensuring that the Irish-speaking population will have an economic means of existence and will not be forced to learn English in order to emigrate to Britain.

If any proof is needed of the statements I have made as to the numbers leaving the Gaeltacht areas and about the anglicisation that has taken place there, I will only suggest to the Minister that he send to the Department of Lands and to the Department of Industry and Commerce for a list, if such lists are available as they should be, of those people who have come into the Gaeltacht areas from Britain throughout the last 15 years. Let one go down to Galway, to Connemara, up the Corrib or to any of these places, and one will find that a good number of houses in these areas are owned by Colonel So-and-so or by Major-General So-and-so, from the Indian Army, the Australian Army or the British Army. The people are leaving the Gaeltacht areas and they are being replaced there by gentlemen retiring from foreign service.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Is the Minister for Education responsible for that?

Mr. McQuillan

I am trying to point out the trend with regard to the revival of the Irish language and that the Minister for Education is responsible for the Gaeltacht areas in so far as the language is concerned.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister for Education has responsibility for the Department of Education and the educational system. He is not responsible for the tenants of mansions in the Gaeltacht.

Mr. McQuillan

I have not suggested that he has. I have told him that if he wants proof of the fact that the Gaelic-speaking population has dwindled, all he has to do is to go to the Department of Lands or the Taoiseach's Department and he will get figures to prove what I am telling him here. If you are serious about making Irish the spoken language in this country, then you must give bread and butter to the people. Go out to Connemara to-morrow morning and meet any of the young girls for whom there is no employment available; find out what their wish is and it is to be become proficient in the English language. They move into Galway City; they get domestic employment in the hotels, in boarding houses and with private people, and inside of three to six months they are proficient as good English speakers. As soon as they have a good working knowledge of the English language they get a train in Galway and they end up in Birmingham, Liverpool, Manchester or some place else. In other words, the incentive in the Gaeltacht areas, in Connemara and elsewhere, is to learn English in order to achieve a livelihood.

That is all I propose to say with regard to the revival of Irish. I want to make it clear that I am anxious to see it done properly. I am anxious to point out to the Minister the dangers that are apparent there and that must be tackled. One of the real methods of conserving or protecting the Gaelic language and keeping it alive, especially in those areas, is to get the right type of employment there.

To get back to the general question of education, some speakers here have suggested that there was a better educational system in this country 100 years ago. I do not think that is correct. I believe that our educational facilities have improved immensely in the last century and that the general standard of education has improved also. We have only, to my mind, to see the record of any of the secondary schools, any of the schools run by the religious orders, and see the list of successes published yearly as a result of their efforts to educate the youth of the country. We have only to look at the list of the successes as regards degrees given out each year in our universities at Galway, Cork and Dublin, to know that there is available to-day a huge number of trained people, doctors, engineers, dentists, professional men of all kinds, and women, too. But I wonder how many of those professional people in the last 25 to 30 years succeeded in establishing themselves in security here in Ireland.

I would like one of those secondary schools in existence for a long number of years to examine its records of all the pupils that passed through its hands in the last 30 years and find out just how many of those pupils are now living here in Ireland and have secured employment. I think it would shake some of the people in this House to realise that most of those people have achieved success outside this country. In other words, England, America and every other country have been delighted to take Irish doctors, Irish policemen, at the time when they are trained.

Mr. Hickey

And Irish nurses.

Mr. McQuillan

I should, of course, have mentioned with regard to women that Irish nurses are looked upon as the best in the world and they are gladly seized in every country because they are trained before they go there and it does not cost the particular country any money in order to make those people expert in their particular profession. That is the position with regard to our university end of it. At the other end of the scale, we have that section of our people who do not go past the national school. At the present time the national school leaving age is 14. After that, those boys and girls who are not in a position. through one reason or another, to obtain secondary or vocational education, find themselves on the labour market. Their services are also snapped up in Britain and there in Britain they become the hewers of wood and drawers of water for the English people who would not descend to such menial tasks as have to be performed by the badly educated Irishman who has to leave this country for a living.

I believe that it is much better, if we do have to allow people out of this country, if we are not in a position to provide for them at home, that we send them out educated, able to work with their hands or with their brains, not send them out as they are going at the present time, barely able to read and write. There are facts to bear out what I have to say in this debate in regard to that section of our people who emigrate to England every year, those boys and girls who have not had the opportunity of getting a secondary education, and who go to England and work there in domestic employment and as labourers. If all those who emigrated from Ireland in the last 100 years had held their Catholic Faith and if their descendants held the Faith as well, there would be in Britain to-day over 10,000,000 Catholics. It is beyond contradiction that one of the reasons that the Faith has failed with our Irish population in Britain and their descendants is the fact that these boys and girls when they go to Britain first have not a sound or proper education. A very prominent sociologist once said that education was the rudder of the State. I think that statement is perfectly true.

I would like to know if the steering at the present time is being done in the right direction. Is our educational system tending towards the ultimate good of the State? I believe it is true to say that if anybody in this House goes down to a national school and asks a pupil: "What would you like to be?" he will find that the majority of the boys would like to be bus drivers, doctors, engineers, priests. Very few, you will find, will say that they would like to be farmers. Go and ask a girl in the national school what she would like to be. The majority nowadays would like to be nurses or air hostesses or film stars. Very few would suggest that they would be satisfied with a domestic occupation, or to become housewives, and that is the ultimate future for the majority of those girls. Yet it is looked upon as strange to-day if a boy says he would like to be a farmer. In other words, there is a wrong bias towards rural Ireland and that wrong bias can be traced to a great extent to the fact that all the streams of thought towards education emanate from Dublin, emanate from people with minds divorced from rural Ireland. It is an utter and entire impossibility for a man who is living here cooped up in Dublin with the same mentality to decide what is really good or what is the right system of rural education.

In that connection, I am very glad to welcome into the arena bodies like Muintir na Tíre because if there is any hope in the world for the future of the youth in rural areas, if there is any hope that a proper type of education will at least be made available, it will be through bodies like Muintir na Tíre and not through the Department of Education.

I must say that in the past few years there has been a great change among parents in rural Ireland, so far as their ideas on education are concerned. There is a wonderful demand to-day in all parts of the West of Ireland that I know for more vocational training. There is a demand from every parish in my constituency at present for some form of vocational education and I am speaking as a member of a vocational body. I appeal to the Minister, while that enthusiasm is there and while that urge to give boys and girls a good sound practical type of education is there, to take every possible means to see that that demand is met. That demand cannot be met until sufficient teachers are available. We could employ another ten to 15 vocational teachers in Roscommon, but we cannot get them, although the demand is there for them. There are a number of schools—national schools which are not being used, as the number of school children has decreased—which could be utilised for vocational classes, but we have not got the teachers.

The position so far as I can ascertain is that no sooner have a number of these people taken out their degrees than they are snapped up by industrial and business concerns. In other words, the pay attaching to vocational teaching is not sufficient to attract candidates into the profession. They prefer to take up employment with firms and industrial concerns and I appeal to the Minister to make conditions still more attractive in order to bring the very best possible type of teacher into the vocational system. In addition, there should be at least five times the number of people in training as vocational teachers. The numbers are too limited altogether to meet the demand all over Ireland. I am sure the Minister is very sympathetic towards that problem and that I am not speaking to a man who will let it in one ear and out the other.

One of the matters at present under consideration by the Council of Education is the question of the school-leaving age. I do not propose to dwell on it at any length because other speakers have made their contributions and my words would only be a repetition of what they have said, but I should like to urge that the school-leaving age should be raised as soon as possible. I do not suggest that it be raised to 16 years, but I feel that it is a matter which should be tied in with vocational training. It would be ridiculous to raise the school-leaving age in primary schools merely in respect of the subjects they are doing at present. I should prefer to see school children doing with one year less in the primary schools and being diverted into various vocational lines until they reach the age of 15 or 16. There is nothing as useful to-day for any man as a sound and practical training in carpentry or mechanies of any kind. A man who is skilled in any of these lines after a period of training in the technical school is never stuck afterwards for employment, and if he has to leave the country—unfortunately, quite a number of our people have to leave it at present—let us at least see to it that, when he goes, he will be able to compete with the best that Britain herself can produce for the different types of employment.

I should like to emphasise the necessity for changing the present bias in education. Up to recently, at any rate, the aim of parents was to get a son or daughter into the Civil Service or some other job in Dublin. The bigger the town they could send them to for a job, the better they liked it, and the height of their ambition is to wear a black hat and striped trousers and carry an umbrella in Dublin. The brainiest boy in the home was sent either to the university or to Maynooth. I have no objection to brainy people going to either place—they are needed —but I think that the best mind in the family, the ablest member of the family, should be given a chance on the land. The idea up to the present has been that the "dope" of the family should be left at home.

That is one of the reasons I welcome the Muintir na Tíre group into the arena because they have brought a new look into rural Ireland, so far as the farming community are concerned. The Minister should co-operate to as great an extent as possible with groups like Muintir na Tíre and get their views, so that the mainstay of our country, agriculture and the farming community, will have at their disposal trained men and women educated with a bias towards the land. If we can achieve that, if we can bring about a feeling in our youth to-day that the land and the activities associated with it— forestry, market gardening and so forth —are of a higher nature than the activities for which they are being trained, the Department of Education would be doing a good work for the economic security of this country in years to come. No Deputy can deny that our economic security is bound up with the land and with agriculture. If we give to agricultural life and pursuits the very best cream of our nation, they will be the best safeguard towards the security of the country as a whole.

Mr. J. Brennan

I will be very brief, as most of the points one would like to make have been made by others and repeated several times. I would like to impress on the Minister the desirability of giving every possible assistance to meet the present increasing demand for vocational education. The primary schools lay the foundation and mould the character of the pupil. For most pupils—those who are not desirous of continuing self-study thereafter—there is no opportunity for secondary education. Thousands of our people to-day have not a hope of availing themselves of secondary education in any form, for the simple reason that they cannot afford it. If they are not within easy reach of a vocational school where they can continue their education, they must be content with what they have been able to glean from attendance at a national school.

There is no part of the country where vocational schools are needed or where that case could be applied better than in the Gaeltacht. The present Minister has given the green light in the erection of such schools there, but he should remember too that that is imposing a heavy burden on local authorities, which most of them can ill afford to bear. I would like him to consider making better financial provision for the congested areas and particularly the Gaeltacht areas, for the type of school that is as good as you would find in the cities. Any attempt at the improvised school is likely to have a bad effect, to have the opposite effect to that intended, in so far as it may not create the confidence that would be created by a well-established, properly staffed, large type vocational school. The Minister should consider making financial provision more on a population basis than on the basis of areas or counties. The congested areas would be bound to benefit under a scheme of that type.

Some time ago a commission sat to inquire into the system of youth education and I think one of the recommendations they made then was that we should have vocational guidance officers appointed to ascertain particular classes and segregate the types that would be suited to a particular vocation. That would be well worth following up, if and when we had a suitable number of vocational schools. We have scarcely reached the position yet where we can say that vocational education is at the disposal of every family in the country.

We should realise how unfair it is that even in 1952 there are thousands of families, particularly in the Gaeltacht, who will not in their day have a hope of getting any secondary education whatever, just because their parents cannot afford to send them to secondary schools. The vocational school is the poor man's university and the only hope he has of giving his children a secondary education. One may say that the vocational school really makes provision for the trades, but there is no reason why the curriculum should not be more comprehensive and extended so that general education would receive better attention.

The Minister might say that there is a shortage of teachers, but that could be easily remedied over a short period of years. Furthermore, we naturally expect a bias towards rural science in such technical schools and there should be more provision for plots attached to them in rural areas. If we concentrated on that and proceeded along those lines, we could feel that, just as there are facilities for primary education for every single child in the country, there are also facilities for secondary education for every single child. The Minister could not go far wrong in considering seriously the making of better financial provision, particularly for the Gaeltacht and the congested counties, for the establishment of vocational facilities.

In regard to the vexed question of ex-teachers' pensions, I think the case made in their claim for better provision is an unanswerable one. I refer to those who retired prior to January, 1950. It is sufficient to point out that they can hardly be expected to exist, as some of them have to, on £3 or £4 a week, no more than those who retired after that year and who benefited under a better arrangement. The excuse offered is that it is a question of finance, that the amount involved is too great, but that means merely accepting the fact that one section of the ex-teachers are denied what their colleagues were more fortunate in getting. There is no answer to the case they have made on the grounds that they are able to exist on the miserable pittance they are getting at the moment. It is degrading to see how some ex-teachers have to live at present. It holds out no great incentive to those who may be contemplating putting the family into the teaching profession, to take a look around and see how some of the past teachers are compelled to end their days. That reason in itself should be sufficient incentive to the Minister to find the money in some way, to give these people some increase to meet the cost of living and enable them to live with a little more comfort in their retirement.

The condition of the primary schools generally has been referred to by most of the speakers. An all-out effort, a general blitz, should be launched regarding the uninhabitable schools in the country. Building is a much discussed topic at the moment. Efforts are made to clear slums and to improve farm dwellings and housing in the towns. There is no type of building more necessary or more urgent than the building of national schools of a better class throughout the country. As has been repeatedly pointed out, the national school is the only school that some pupils have a chance of attending. A very poor impression will be left in the minds of those who have to attend badly equipped derelict schools that are not suitable in any way for their purpose.

It is a pity that a few hundred pounds extra would not be spent when a school is being built to provide a decent playground or playing pitch. When children are let out of school for recreation, in some cases they go into a yard which is comparable to what one would expect to see at a farm house, and they are hemmed in there for half an hour, in some cases on a dirty half-rood of land. That cannot have a good effect on the character of any child, particularly in the case of a child who has not a chance of attending any better institution.

The previous speaker referred to the advancement of the Irish language. Some of the things he said were perfectly true. There is one point at which I could not agree with him, namely, his reference to the humbug and hypocrisy of people who are working for the restoration of the language. It is very easy to make statements of that kind but, personally, I believe that if we were to regard the problem in its true light we should have the greatest admiration for anyone who in any way makes an effort to further the cause of the Irish language. It is an onerous task and a difficult one. We should be proud that we still have amongst us thousands who are prepared to sacrifice their time and energy in that great work and who in some cases devote their entire life to it. I wonder do we, who sometimes are inclined to criticise them, pull our weight in that direction. I am afraid we do not. The least we could do is to encourage them, to extend to them our admiration and thanks for the great effort they are making in difficult circumstances.

It is not an easy job to restore a language in any country and there is certainly no easy way in this country any more than in any other place where it has been attempted. The fact remains that more people have a knowledge of the Irish language to-day than before. In spite of what has been said, we are rapidly advancing towards the time when we can accept the Irish language as the language which can be used in our everyday life, in our business circles, in our professions, and elsewhere.

I do not wish to continue this long-drawn out debate by repeating what has been said already. On the general question of education, in so far as education is the principal weapon with which to fight ignorance, poverty and squalor in this or any other country, the Department of Education should have a broad outlook and should be prepared to investigate and experiment in every possible direction with a view to advancing the education of the people. It does not matter what their ultimate destiny may be, if they are educated, the people will be better equipped for life, whether at home or abroad. Education is a weapon in their hands which they will always find their greatest friend.

Mr. Hickey

It seems to me that our educationists are more preoccupied with means, with methods, than with ends. Education, considered from the social point of view, must have a definite objective. It must set before our people high ideals of value and develop the ideal of service, as the truest and the noblest form of self-expression, and the achievement of these ideals is not merely giving education, which will help our young people to get on in life, but the education which will help them to understand what life is, and to train them to take part in the social and economic reforms and civic life generally.

Having some knowledge of boys and girls leaving school and going into industry, meeting them year after year in certain assemblies, I have to express my surprise and my displeasure at the value we are getting for the amount of money we spend on education. The previous speaker very properly referred to education as a means of fighting poverty and ignorance, and I would add, ugliness in life.

A great defect in our system of education is that the talented boy or girl is too often debarred from education because of the economic and social position of his or her parents. I feel that democracy cannot be established in any country until there is equal opportunity for education. I have in mind a number of talented boys and girls whose parents were pleaded with by teachers who knew their talents to try to keep them to school but, owing to the economic circumstances of the home, these boys and girls had to take up jobs at 14 or 14½ years of age and their talents were lost to the country.

There are some people who are shallow enough to say that the boy from the slum or the boy from the uneconomic holding in the Gaeltacht area can become the President of this country. We must admit that some boys do master and surmount many difficulties but what chance has the talented boy or girl in the remote parts of this country of reaching any high position by reason of his educational attainments?

We will all agree that many of the teachers in our schools and colleges have a national outlook in life. The great mass of them who go through the training colleges are fashioned in the ideas of our existing economy. Therefore, the minds of the children they are teaching are moulded in accordance with the present social system. The result is that we have not got education for social change.

I should like to say—and I venture to suggest that the Minister will agree with me—that the first and the most obvious dividing line between men everywhere to-day is between those who see and believe passionately in the need for social changes, and those who, having vested interests, intellectual or material, want to maintain things as they are. Education then must stand on one side or other of that dividing line. It must aim either to educate children to maintain things as they are or to educate children to make the needed changes in society. I think no man with eyes can go through our country to-day seeing nothing of its problems and its needs. The man and particularly the educationist who pretends that he is above the struggle, is ranging himself with those who want to maintain the status quo—a status of poverty, ignorance, ugliness and social injustice. I repeat that we need to educate for social change. I think I may also safely say that posterity will think our attitude very cruel in that we are permitting thousands of young boys and girls to leave school at the most plastic moment of their lives, improperly prepared to meet the impact of life. It is at this stage that you require the adult education to which previous speakers have referred; it is here we need the social education to which I am referring.

I would impress on the Minister that we have to rid our minds of the idea that the present system of education in the country is all right, because it is not. The Minister has a good rural background and, in considering the question of education in rural areas, I think he will agree with me that the present system of education makes practically no allowance for the needs of rural areas. I remember when I was going to school in the country I had two books dealing with agriculture. I am informed that for years there is no such thing as books on agriculture in the national schools. During my time at school we had to devote so many hours every week to lessons on agricultural subjects. I think the statement in to-day's paper from His Lordship the Coadjutor Bishop of Cork, is based on fact because undoubtedly the rural population is diminishing—not for a moment am I suggesting that we can always maintain the rural population, because the person talks lightly who says that we can keep boys and girls in the countryside if there are no opportunities of employment for them. We are bound to have a number of them leaving the country in present circumstances. I want to say that in my opinion we are not making country life sufficiently attractive to keep these young people in the country. If there is one thing more than another necessary for that purpose, it is the erection of rural halls in different areas.

Another matter to which I should like to refer is this question of scholarships. I think we should have more scholarships in order to assist the poor man's child to get somewhere in life. Considerable difficulty sometimes arises in the administration of existing scholarships. I know that sometimes a number of children are selected because of their talents to enter certain classes to study for scholarships. After being in these classes for some years, they discover that because their parents' income is something over £8 per week they are not qualified to sit for these scholarships and the result is that these children have to leave the scholarship classes. I think that is not giving a fair chance to the talented boy or girl. Even though the father of such children may have up to £8 5s. or £8 10s. per week, there are other members of the family who have to be supported and who have no chance of going for scholarships. Of course they have no chance of ever reaching a university. There again we have a means test operating against talented children and preventing them from getting the education to which they are entitled.

The last speaker and some other speakers spoke very highly of the education afforded by vocational schools. I want to reiterate that testimony. A number of boys and girls who may not reach leaving certificate standard are left without training and the only schools that can cater for them are the vocational schools. I would appeal to the Minister that the teachers in these vocational schools should be placed on the same status as national teachers. I see no reason whatever for any differential there. Having some experience as a member of the Vocational Schools Committee in Cork, and knowing the work which the vocational teachers are doing in the different schools in Cork, I have often asked myself the question on what grounds should there be a lesser status for vocational teachers than for national teachers. I hope the Minister will give some consideration to that question with a view to improving the status of vocational teachers.

The Minister spoke on the question of school holidays and Deputy Cogan to-day attempted to put his own interpretation on the demand for extended holidays. I believe that it is wrong to keep children in school during the summer months of June, July and August when they should be out enjoying the sunshine and fresh air but I believe that they should have fewer holidays at Easter and Christmas. I can assure the Minister that there is a very strong desire amongst parents that the children should have had a longer period of holidays during the summer months. If the Minister takes the trouble to interview a representative section of parents, he will find that they will agree with that view.

I do not want to prevent the Minister from getting in to conclude the debate before 7 o'clock, but I should like to say in conclusion that much remains to be done by the Department of Education to improve the civic spirit of the boys and girls leaving school.

I do not want to be in any way personal but I feel that young boys and girls of 14 and 14½ years of age leaving school have very little sense of civic pride or civic virtue. I often wonder if we are to put all the blame on their parents and I am afraid we cannot. I think civics should be taught more in our schools than they are. The Minister has listened to many comments about the system of education and I hope we may look forward to the day when we will have young boys and girls taught a better sense of citizenship. After all, we are looking forward to their making a better Ireland in the future, and I hope they will, but they must be taught how to make that better Ireland, and I think the teachers and the system of education which we have are not doing that.

Seán Ó Maoláin

Dá mbeadh an file úd a chuir an cheist—"Cad a dhéanfaimid feasta gan adhmad?" i láthair sa Dáil nuair a bhí an Teachta Ó Domhnaill agus an Teachta Palmer ag caint i dtosach na díospóireachta seo, is go mórmhór nuair a tharraing an Teachta Ó Bláthmhaic ceist na foraoiseachta isteach sa díospóireacht, thuigfeadh sé nár ghá dhó bheith imníoch. Thuigfeadh sé dá fhaid a fhásann an féar agus dá fhaid a ritheann an t-uisce beidh blocanna adhmaid le fáil fós ag Cáit Ní Dhuibhir.

Nuair do thosnaíomar ar an gceist seo a phlé bé an chéad fhear a labhair ná an Teachta Ó Domhnaill. Dúirt sé nár thuig sé ach strac-fhocal uaim nuair a bhíos ag caint; go raibh an Ghaeilg loitithe agam agus ag an Roinn Oideachais. Chuir sé in iúl dúinn go raibh an Ghaeilg aige féin agus ag an Teachta Palmer ón gcliabhán ach nár thuig ceachtar acu pé rud a bhí ar siúl agam.

Do mhol sé an módh díreach dúinn ach do thréig sé féin an módh díreach. I mBéarla agus i mBéarla amháin do labhair sé.

Is dócha gur cruaidh ar Ghaeilgeoir dá leithéid gan Gaeilg a labhairt. Acht mar mhaithe liomsa, mise atá sa doircheacht leasmuigh, dc nocht sé a smaointe dhúinn i mBéarla agus lean an Gaeilgeoir eile ó Chiarraighe ar an mbóthar chéanna.

Más maith leis an mbeirt Teachtaí seo an Ghaeilg a chur ar aghaidh tá buadh faoi leith acu chuige—an Ghaeilg ar a dtoil acu agus líofacht teanga. Ba cheart dóibh úsáid a bhaint aisti. Bheadh bunús éigin faoina gcaint dá mba rud gur i nGaeilg a labhradar.

Muna bhfuil Teachtaí sásta an Ghaeilg a labhairt bheadh sé níos fearr acu agus níos oiriúnaí dhóibh gan aon tagairt a dhéanamh dí.

Nílim chun freagra a thabhairt ar gach duine faoi leith dár labhair ar an Meastachán ach déanfad iarracht ar gach ceist tábhachtach a tógadh sa díospóireacht a shuathadh, a scrúdú agus d'fhreagairt, ach le h-eagla ná tuigfeadh na Gaeil mé déanfad triail a bhaint as an mBéarla.

One of the things that have been causing much anxiety to me and about which there is a public opinion now is the question of the provision of proper and adequate school buildings. We really have a number of very poor school buildings, about 600 of them. Of course when a poor honest man like me puts his finger on a particular problem any amount of fly-boys come along in the newspapers and elsewhere and they make a racket of it without understanding at all what the problem is. Some of them in the newspapers grew quite lyrical about it and some of them rather hysterical. There is no need for either lyricism or hysteria. Sometimes I begin to believe that there is something more or less anticlerical about it, that it is utilised as a weapon wherewith to point out that the local parish priest is not doing his duty and when it is not the local parish priest who is not doing his duty it surely must be the Department of Education and, particularly, the inefficient Minister who is for the time being in charge of the Department.

This is by no means a problem confined to this country. The New Statesman, dealing with English schools on 9th February, 1952, said:—

"It seems broadly true that we have had almost no replacement of old schools. Many hundreds of schools that were blacklisted 20 years ago are still in active use. We are keeping our future citizens in surroundings which were out of date a generation ago. Even the blacklisted schools have not been replaced and there are thousands of others which fall below any decent minimum of amenities or convenience. A thorough and almost universal replacement of our present buildings is required. For every satisfactory building you will find a dozen that are not, and half a dozen that are horrible. Eleven thousand new classrooms are needed and the Minister's calculation was that 3,000 new schools were needed for 1953."

That is England. In the New York Times of April 8th, 1952, it was pointed out by an educationist over there who examined the situation that ten billion dollars were needed to build 600,000 classrooms during the next six years. These are the conditions that obtain in England and America, much more rich, much more powerful countries than ours—countries which have had their freedom for hundreds of years and which are not subject to the difficulty to which this country was subject. I am not suggesting that the fact that that condition obtains in countries like America and Great Britain is any excuse for our not tackling the problem, but I do want people to realise that, in the main, the great majority of our school buildings are reasonably good and some of them are very good.

Possibly 20 per cent. of our school buildings are not satisfactory. For normal replacement of schools, the life of which should be about 100 years, we should build 50 schools yearly. I think that for the next five or six years we should try at least to double that amount so as to destroy the existing evil condition. In order to do that we shall have to look for more money. I hope that when we make an appeal for that money we shall not be told that we are pressing too hard on the unfortunate taxpayer. I think an investment of public money in education is the best investment and will pay the greatest dividends to the people of this country.

It is unfortunately true that there are delays in relation to the building of schools such as Deputy Desmond mentioned. The sites have to be sought. The local people have to provide the site. I had a letter this morning from a man who wants to build a school in a village where there is no priest, no doctor, no civic guard, and which is ten miles from a railway station. The price of half an acre of land is £600. The people of this country have such a tremendous desire for education that when it is intended to build a school the site costs as much as it would cost on Wall Street. The parish priest has to find the money for the site. He has to get a certain local contribution. Very often he is accused of not doing his duty simply because he cannot induce his parishioners to contribute the little amount they should contribute. It has come to be a fact that the State contribution is greater as the years go by than it was. At one time it was a minor affair. Later it came to be about two-thirds; now the local contribution is down somewhere around 17 per cent., with very special consideration for backward and poor areas. Whilst that must happen, I am afraid it is unavoidable. Nevertheless, I think we should insist on a certain local responsibility. If people have any respect or desire for education they should show their respect and desire for it by providing the small amount which is due from them.

I should like to pay a tribute to all architects. I think that the school buildings that have been erected lately are as good and as satisfactory and as suitable as the buildings erected in any other country. I think the work of our architects compares very favourably with the work of school architects in any other country. One thing on which I will insist is that, having gone to all the trouble to secure sites, to make beautiful plans and to build the schools, no contractor who contracts to build a school for us will be allowed to get away with anything. I have been in some schools which were built within the past ten years, and I am really ashamed of the work that has been done. Some of the work is very bad. I think that people generally should have ideas about that in their own locality and should not be chary of opening their mouths in criticism of bad work.

Another problem in relation to school buildings is the problem of maintenance. Deputy Mulcahy mentioned a school which was built in 1914 but which looks as if it were built in 1014, because not merely has there been no maintenance or attempt to keep it in good condition since it was built but it has been a target for the stones of every schoolboy passing along the road. It is time we induced some element of civilisation even in the backward areas so that schools will not be attacked in that fashion. I have the idea that local people should maintain the schools. I do not think that people everywhere should try to utilise the State as a crutch for every purpose. Deputy Desmond said that a local committee might be utilised to provide such maintenance. I see no reason why public-minded citizens should not take sufficient interest in schools to band themselves into a local committee and see that the schools are properly kept. A beautiful building which is well kept has a very definite beneficial effect on the minds of children. In a great measure, the schools which were built in the past looked like places of detention. Schools ought to be happy places where good work can be done. I think we are now making progress in that respect.

Another matter often raised by Deputies and by teachers is the question of heating and cleaning. There is a certain State grant for that purpose: maybe it should be bigger but it would cost a good deal of money to meet the suggestions that have been made. Here, again, I do not see any difficulty in the local community giving a much greater contribution than they have given heretofore.

We must not expect too much of children in the primary schools, but sometimes we are so modern in our outlook that we seem to believe that the child is rather a brittle affair. Children are tough. You can knock them about a bit. I see no reason in the world why, particularly in the smaller schools where it can be done, children should not take it in their turn to sweep the schools. With all his faults, I think Mr. Squeers had one idea anyhow—that of teaching the children to keep the school tidy. I swept schools. A lot of rubbish is talked about the dust getting into children's lungs and giving them tuberculosis. I swept schools, and I did a good deal more than that round schools. I do not think it did me any particular harm. I think it is a good thing that a kid should be asked to do it. When teachers think they are imposing upon the children or when parents believe that their children are being imposed upon once a month for a saving to the State and to the general public of possibly £100, I do not see there is any reason why they should not be asked to do this.

Mr. Hickey

I am afraid you will not get many parents to agree with you.

Mr. Moylan

Would you?

Mr. Hickey

Indeed, I would not.

Mr. Moylan

I thought you wanted education for a social change.

Mr. Hickey

There are people for that job, too.

Mr. Moylan

I would be glad to do it anyhow. The question of the conciliation for teachers was raised. That conciliation and arbitration scheme was an experiment undertaken for one year and was subject to review after a year. I understand that the Civil Service arbitration and conciliation scheme is being considered and when any definite arrangement is made in regard to it that one of the outcomes will be another review of the teachers' conciliation and arbitration scheme.

There was under the conciliation and arbitration scheme an adjustment of salaries quite recently, and I was surprised when certain teacher Deputies raised the question again of inadequate salaries immediately after a settlement by conciliation had been reached. I suppose they were the living examples of Deputy Hickey's view of education for a social change. Are we to be constantly in a state of revolution? There must be some particular period of peace and, when a settlement has been made, it ought to last for some little time anyhow without being raised again as an urgent matter.

Mr. Hickey

That is not Deputy Hickey's view of social change.

Mr. Moylan

Well, it is my interpretation of the Deputy's view.

Mr. Hickey

I cannot help you in that.

Mr. S. Collins

I think he would let the children sweep the schools.

Mr. Moylan

The salaries of the teachers were fixed by way of an agreement with the executive of the teachers' body and I would like to pay tribute to the responsible approach of the members of the I.N.T.O. executive to that particular matter. I know that they have their own difficulties, that possibly some of their members are overasserting their personality of independence and rather prone to look upon any settlement as a settlement that is not satisfactory, but the executive of the I.N.T.O. certainly met this matter in a vigorous fashion and at the same time in a reasonable fashion.

I think that they really understood that they had reached the limit of the State resources and could not ask any more than they did ask. I do think that everybody concerned here in the Dáil should realise that we cannot change from day to day the settlement reached. I would, of course, naturally find myself in disagreement with many of the ideas of teachers. At the same time, I would like to say that, in my opinion, the character of our teachers is a high one. In general, I think that they are a very admirable body of citizens. I think that our educational system is in good hands.

I realise, of course, that there is a tremendous effort to be made by a good teacher. He has a very heavy burden of competitive effort. One of the things that I am very much interested in is the creation of interest in the pupils in any particular subject. I do not mind what it is. I think that if we could arouse the initiative of the child to follow any particular line of his own that that interest should be created and that that would be a start towards a general interest in the question of education. I do think that the school curriculum in the primary schools should be kept as simple as possible.

I am not a believer in overloading any programme. There is much talk about overloading of programmes. I do not know if that is correct. Many of the subjects taught are so closely allied as to be one subject. Whatever Deputy Hickey or any other Deputy says, as long as I am Minister for Education agriculture will not be tolerated in the primary schools. I have no idea at all of the use of agriculture in the primary schools.

Mr. Hickey

In the primary school?

Mr. Moylan

No idea. It was possibly all right 50 years ago and much of the criticism that is aimed at schools to-day is based on a forgetfulness of conditions that existed in the schools of 50 years ago. At that particular time many boys and girls remained in the primary schools until they were 16 or 17. Therefore it was possible to give them an added teaching in various subjects. To-day children leave school at 14 years of age and many of the best do really go from the primary school much earlier to the secondary schools.

The question of Irish has been raised in various ways. When some Deputies were speaking here on the subject of Irish I did not know whether it was the Estimate for the Department of Education that was being discussed or those for the Departments of Industry and Commerce, Lands or Agriculture. I am not responsible for the Gaeltacht. It is my responsibility, as far as possible, to secure the spread of the understanding and the speaking of Irish.

One Deputy here mentioned the fact that children in the Gaeltacht were anxious to learn English. I would be no party to denying them that. If they want to learn English they must be permitted to learn it. It is part of the equipment they need to earn their livelihood in this country at the present moment but that is not any reason why we should not in every fashion try to strengthen the use and the development of Irish not merely in the Gaeltacht but everywhere. It is unfair to the people of the Gaeltacht to suggest that they must live in a sort of confined space out of touch with the rest of the world just for the convenience of the rest of the country which may or may not want to learn Irish. I think we can preserve Irish far better in the Gaeltacht by removing the anxiety of the parents in that area in regard to the idea they have that we wish to deny their children the opportunity of learning English. I would like to place in their hands what Canon O'Leary called "Dhá eirim aigne"— two languages. Instead of one language adversely affecting the other, both would, I believe, help each other.

With all due respect to Deputy O'Donnell, the native speaker from Donegal, I do not believe that dialect is a drawback in any language. It is generally held by experts that dialects strengthen the language. Anyone who has read the works of Robert Louis Stevenson will recollect his pointing out in "Familiar Studies of Men and Books" the tremendous number of dialects that existed, not only those that were known, but also many that were unknown, all over Scotland and England, without having any effect on the language generally. I do not take much notice of differences in dialect. I remember speaking in the town of Moville during the election of 1918, and somebody asked afterwards who the chap was that spoke like a policeman. All the policemen up there were from the south, and the local inhabitants naturally found it more difficult to understand me when I spoke in English than when I spoke in Irish.

Deputy Desmond referred to textbooks that passed down from generation to generation. I believe these books were preserved because of their unsuitability for school children. I remember The Impeachment of Warren Hastings and The Vision of Mirza—large indigestible lumps of language which no child of ten, 12 or 14 could ever hope to understand. It is no wonder such books were preserved. They were never looked at. Men sometimes tell me now how valuable the information was that was in those books, how interested they were in them, and how much they remember of them.

Mr. Hickey

That is not what the complaint is about.

Mr. Moylan

Let me make my own complaint. The reason they remember them is because they probably read them when they were adults. No child could possibly absorb the stuff that was in the fifth and sixth book years ago. Complaint is made that the textbooks cannot now be handed down from one child to another. That cannot be done nowadays, because the books are used, and they fall asunder through use. Deputy Desmond must come from a very careful family if the books were preserved there in the way he says they were. In my family they always fell to pieces.

Mr. Desmond

The books I mean are Irish books like Slí an Eólais and Séadhna, and the fourth-class arithmetic. I am not speaking of the kind of books the Minister has mentioned. I never read them. I quite admit that.

Mr. Moylan

You cannot expect these textbooks to last for ever.

Mr. Desmond

They could last for two years.

Mr. Moylan

Knowing children as I do, I find it difficult to believe they would preserve anything. Textbooks can be very narrow. They can be very uninteresting. I would like to see a library in every school. I would like to give every child the run of a school library. I would like him to pick out some book he wants to read. If a child becomes interested in any book he will probably read a number of others subsequently. If I could send a child out of the primary school able to read and with a liking for reading I would have accomplished my purpose.

A good deal of play was made about the primary certificate. There is only one examination in the primary school. There are two in the secondary school. How can one find out what progress is being made if there is not some kind of test? I know there is a system of inspection. It is not possible to inspect individually every child and the only way in which progress can be measured is by having some standard of examination. Perhaps the present method is not the best one but I do not know of any other way of doing it.

Deputy J. Brennan referred to the questions of pensions and gratuities in connection with teachers who have retired. Many Deputies adverted to that matter. This problem was handed on to me and it is less easy of settlement now than it might have been when it was created by my predecessor. I am having the matter examined. I know how difficult the financial position is and I will not hold out any undue hope. The result of the examination that is taking place will be communicated in due course.

Mr. Sweetman

The position will be difficult so long as Deputy MacEntee is Minister for Finance.

Mr. Moylan

Ministers for Finance seem to be tough people. Your Minister was tough, too. The question of the marriage ban was raised. There is no marriage ban. Anybody who likes can get married. I suppose there is a certain difficulty in the imposition of what is described as a marriage ban. There are also certain advantages and on balance I think the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. This may be a matter that will be examined in the future and may be resolved but at the moment I have no intention of lifting the so-called ban.

Deputy Blowick referred to the closing of small schools. I think it is undesirable to close schools in any area if it is at all possible to keep them open, but attendances may drop to such a figure as to render it impossible to run the schools effectively. I am very much in favour of preserving all schools.

Reference was made to the problem of backward children. That is a very difficult problem. It will be a particularly difficult problem in the rural areas. It may be possible to deal with it in the city and already one of our teachers in the city has evolved an idea in connection with the handling of the problem here in Dublin. I want to take this opportunity of expressing my appreciation of the work done by two teachers who have been dealing with that very difficult problem. I propose to hold discussions with the people working on the matter shortly in an effort to discover if we can evolve some solution.

Another problem, a social problem too, is the question of reformatories. I really think, in spite of the very effective and unselfish work done in our reformatories, that we have not really reached much further than making them places of detention. I am convinced that, for the removal of social evil, and for the prevention of a great economic evil even, it would be wise on our part to spend a good deal more money in developing our reformatory system. I do not think it is as good as it should be, even though I do appreciate fully the fine and unselfish work that is being done by the teachers and those in control. In fact, all the social changes in the world, no matter what social welfare schemes we might introduce, none of them is going to replace the work that is being done in our orphanages for blind children, for mentally deficient children and for the deaf. I think that members of the Dáil, and public men generally, do not really understand the amount of work that is being done in those schools, the successful work, and the amazing unselfish effort there is.

Mr. Hickey

Hear, hear!

Mr. Moylan

I have been in a number of orphanages. I found the children well fed, well clad and very happy. I visited the blind school, and, strangely enough. I found that the blind children could read more clearly and far better than the children outside. No praise could be too great for the patience of those in charge of that school.

I have seen, in a school for the mentally deficient, the work that is being done, work that no money could buy. I really would like those who believe— I am not attacking any Party—in the outstanding value of social welfare to see what is being done at present by unselfish people. If they could see what is being done, they would realise that State interference can only go a certain distance, and that it must, at some particular time, be reinforced by character, sympathy and charity.

Mr. Hickey

Hear, hear!

Mr. Moylan

I would like to say about the National Gallery that, under the new director, it seems to have come alive. The display of pictures in the National Gallery and the general layout have been much improved. I have heard strangers, who came along to see me, say that in their opinion the National Gallery is equal to any gallery that they have been through in Europe. I am glad to say that word of praise. We have instituted a series of lectures in art in the National Art Gallery which will take place during the year and which, I hope, will be a valuable educative influence here. Very good work is being done in the National Library. It is always satisfactory. Sometimes we are short of money to buy more books. I hope that if we have to come to the Dáil that the Dáil will be generous with us in this matter.

One difficulty, in the case of the National Museum, is lack of space. I have been considering the question of an extension of the museum by way of the creation of a folk museum. These have been very valuable educative factors in other countries, and we are considering the question of the provision of a folk museum.

Deputy Blowick asked me what were cosmic physics. Mind you, that was a $64 question. Nevertheless, cosmic means universe and physics the study of matter and energy. I have been supplied with a much more informed answer to Deputy Blowick's question, and, if he was really seeking information, I would be very glad to send it to him, but I do not think he was seeking information. I would suggest to Deputy Blowick that there was in America, at one time, a gentleman like the man who originated the School of Cosmic Physics. His name was John Quincey Adams, President of the United States. When he was President, he put forward to Congress the idea of the building of a planetarium, and in his campaign for the Presidency, on the second occasion, this was used against him by the followers of Andrew Jackson, a man like Deputy Blowick. He talked about the man with his head in the stars and his feet off the ground. John Quincey Adams was defeated for the Presidency, but when he was an old man, just before he died, the American people took him out of Cincinnati to speak at the opening ceremony of the first planetarium built in America. It took America almost 45 years to appreciate the prescience of John Quincey Adams, but I sincerely hope that it will not take Deputy Blowick 45 years to appreciate the fact that Eamon de Valera is a great man.

Vocational schools have been mentioned, and some difficulties about schools on the borders of counties and of children from other counties going to them. I think we should live and let live. I see no reason why, when our universities will have pupils and students from other countries, there should be any reason for denying to County Cork men the opportunity of ever attending a school in the County Limerick or vice versa. There can always, of course, be a mutual arrangement. I deplore any parochial outlook on that matter.

Now, as regards agricultural and vocational education. The city vocational schools, and the vocational schools in the big towns do not need any encouragement. They are created now and they will gradually snowball into a much bigger organisation; everything is developing that way. They do not need any further push because they are just developing naturally.

However, I would like that in the rural vocational schools we should have a very definite bias towards agriculture. Everything taught in the rural vocational schools generally has a rural bias but I am particularly interested in that particular section which deals with matters on the land. I do think that very good work is being done along those lines and I intend to develop that to a much greater extent.

I would like to pay a tribute to Macra na Feirme for their co-operation in the development of the vocational schools. They have been of very great assistance. Deputy McQuillan mentioned Muintir na Tíre; maybe they are good but I have had no contact with them. I have had contact with Macra na Feirme and I found that they have been most helpful to us and most anxious to give us co-operation in the development of agriculture in the schools. There are a number of other matters with which I do not think I need deal.

Mr. Hickey

Would you agree to the vocational teachers having the same status as national teachers?

Mr. Moylan

That is sub judice at the moment. I cannot talk about it. I would like to say that in 1953, if I happen to be here or if there is a man with the same view as I have here, much more money will be needed for education. Apart from money what we do want for education is the creation of a public opinion in the country very much in favour of the development of education.

Mr. Palmer

Might I ask the Minister a question? Deputies have referred to the question of giving holidays in the primary schools in the months of July and August. In the Minister's reply he did not refer to it or make any statement in that connection. I wonder has he anything to say. I do not want to press the matter but I would like to know if there is anything definite.

Mr. Moylan

I will make a statement about holidays next week.

Mr. Palmer

Very good.

Mr. Moylan

People have been ringing me up and writing to me about the teachers' holidays. I want it quite understood that they are not the teachers' holidays; they are the children's holidays and I want them recognised as that. I also want it recognised by everybody in the country that, irrespective of what time they give the holidays, when we give those holidays they will be in July.

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht - Wednesday, 28 May 1952