Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Friday, 5 Dec 1952

Vol. 135 No. 6

Private Deputies' Business. - Housing Grants Motion.

Debate resumed on the following motion:—

"That Dáil Éireann is of opinion that steps should be taken immediately to have State grants to local authorities increased by at least fifty per cent. for housing; and that, as grave dissatisfaction is experienced in the fixing of reasonable rents for houses for working-class people, arrangements should be made for the extension of the period for loan repayment by local authorities for housing schemes completed by 1st January, 1951, so as to enable local authorities to let the houses at a rent which the tenants will be able to pay."—(Deputy Oliver J. Flanagan.)

Mr. Hickey

I am afraid we have not made much progress since the last discussion took place. I am not at all satisfied that the motion put down by Deputy Flanagan is going to be a solution to the housing problem, any more than the statement made by the Minister on the 29th May last, as reported at column 315 of the Official Reports:—

"It can only be met as far as I can see in the manner in which we have been attempting to meet it in the years gone by, and that is by a joint effort on the part of the people of the State, the ratepayers in the area in which the houses are being built and the tenants who come to occupy them. Even after that cooperation has been secured—and the results are available in many cases, as I say—it does not follow that everybody will be entirely satisfied, but it is the best that we can hope to do."

I think that both the Minister's statement and Deputy Flanagan's motion are very far from solving our housing problem. I suggest that we must deal with the matter by a more determined effort and new ways.

To get down to what I am going to put before the Minister and the House, the point is this. We all know that the cost of houses varies from area to area and from time to time. I will take a representative figure of £1,600, which it is costing the Cork Corporation and others to-day to build houses. That cost is made up somewhat on the following lines: £750 for the wages of the workers; £750 for all kinds of material going into the house; and I am allowing £100 for land, legal expenses and contractors' profits; making a total of £1,600. A house of this type, kept in good repair, is habitable for at least 70 years. If the repayment of the cost were spread over the whole period, the amount required annually would be £22 10s. 8d. or 8/8 per week in rent. In addition to paying the first cost, there must be met each year the cost of repairs, administration, rent collection, insurance, etc. I claim that £15 per year would be sufficient to meet that. It means less than 1 per cent. of the building cost of the house. This would apply to 300 or 400 houses per scheme as well as to one. I am just giving an illustration. Therefore, an annual payment of £37 10s. or 14/5 per week rent for 70 years would repay the capital, keep the house in good repair and pay all the administrative charges, without imposing any charge on the ratepayers or requiring any State subsidy.

Of course, under the present methods, we are not allowed to forget the money lenders. They demand payment for what they call their services. They require not merely the payment of the loan but interest on the loan as well.

I want to be as brief as I can. Let me give a specific case, to indicate to the members of the House and the Minister what I have in mind. The Cork Corporation built 210 houses in 1941 and the cost of each house was £571. They borrowed £120,000 at 5 per cent. repayable in 35 years in 70 half-yearly instalments of £3,667 8s. 11d., and making a total of £256,721.

Mr. MacCarthy

That was some years ago.

Mr. Hickey

I will come to that in a moment.

Mr. MacCarthy

I do not want to contradict the Deputy at all, but when he mentions that price for a house I think the people should know that that was the price in years gone by.

Mr. Hickey

I am coming to that. I am just giving an illustration. The figures I have mentioned cover £120,000 for capital repayment and £136,721 for interest. That was equal to £1,222 per house, which is £651 more than it cost to build the house. Anyone who studies those figures will observe that those who lend the money collect from the tenants, the ratepayers and the taxpayers more than is paid in wages to the men who built the house, the merchants who supplied the materials, the lawyers and other professional men and the owners of the land, all added together.

To-day, as I said at the start, those houses would cost up to £1,600 and now we are being asked to pay at least 5 per cent. interest on the money. I am suggesting here to Deputy Flanagan, who is anxious to see the rents reduced, that he is not dealing with the matter at all in the manner in which it deserves to be dealt with. I am suggesting that the £1,600 house at so much for interest on it, at 5 per cent. to-day, is 30/8 per week rent on the house itself. That is one of the reasons why our people cannot afford to live in the houses we are now building for them. If you take 4½ per cent. on £1,600 it would be 27/4 per week rent for the interest alone paid on it. I am giving the alternative where a house can be built for £1,600 spread over a period of 70 years and the maximum rent they would pay would be 14/5, allowing £15 a year to meet the cost of repairs, administration, etc., and the taxpayers or ratepayers would not be asked to pay a penny of that.

Mr. MacCarthy

The Deputy is not taking in the Government grants or the charges that have not to be met.

Mr. Hickey

I am suggesting to Deputy MacCarthy that I am freeing the corporation as representatives of the ratepayers, and the Government as representatives of the taxpayers, from paying anything—if we were able to issue money as I am suggesting

Mr. MacCarthy

On general lines I agree with what the Deputy is saying, but he should take all the things into consideration.

Mr. Hickey

I feel that Deputy MacCarthy has not followed the point at all. I am suggesting that not alone would the ratepayers be saved from contributing anything to the tenant but the taxpayers would not be asked to pay anything either, if we were able to build that house in the manner in which I suggest, spreading the payment over 70 years, which is not excessive in view of the life of the house.

Mr. MacCarthy

I agree with you.

Mr. Hickey

If the Deputy agrees with me, he will agree that we have to try new methods in a determined way if we want to solve the housing problem.

Mr. MacCarthy

And reduce the rents.

Mr. Hickey

I am giving a way to reduce the rents. Deputy MacCarthy is a member of the Cork Corporation, and knows that 35/- and £2 a week is the rent for houses being built by the corporation.

Mr. MacCarthy

That is quite true.

Mr. Hickey

I am suggesting that for a £1,600 house, by extending the payment over 70 years, all he would be required to pay per week, even allowing £15 a year for upkeep, repairs and administration, would be 14/5. That is a very different sum from £2, 39/- and 35/- a week.

I know that some people believe that the payment of interest on borrowed money cannot be avoided, but I think it is quite relevant to put this question: how were the last two destructive and criminal wars financed? There was not enough money in the savings of the people and not enough money raised by taxation to keep one of those wars going for a month, or even less. The money which the nations spent in these wars was secured by their instructing their central banks to issue the necessary note money to carry on these destructive wars. There is no limit to the amount of money available for war, but when it comes to building houses, we find that we are completely tied up by the financial institutions. Surely we should be able to finance the building of houses in the same way as these two criminal wars were financed, houses our people can afford to live in and pay rents for. I suggest that the reason we are not doing so is the fact that the financial interests in this country are so powerful and are making such huge profits out of lending money to the Government and to local authorities.

This is a matter we shall have to talk about in a very serious way. I have seen a report by a medical officer of health across the water in which he says that poor people were transferred from tenements to new houses and, because of the increased rents which the people had to pay, the death rate amongst the children, and particularly those under one year old, greatly increased. The rents we are charging our people in the new houses deprive them of the means of securing the necessary food for their children and themselves, and I submit that the proposal I have put forward as an alternative to Deputy Flanagan's motion is worthy of consideration.

It is rather strange that municipal bodies throughout the country are paying over £2,500,000 interest on borrowed money to do socially desirable things for our people. I might say to Deputy MacCarthy that, even in the case of a £1,600 house, at a rate of 4 per cent., the rental amounts to £64 per year or 24s. 7d. per week, without making any provision for administration or repairs expenses. If we have to pay 4½ per cent., the rental increases to 27s. 8d. per week, without provision for anything else, and now that the bank rate is increased, that sum of money, at 5 per cent., means £80 a year or a weekly rent of 30s. 9d., without any provision for administration or repairs.

A question was asked here recently as to how many houses were required in Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Waterford, Galway, together with the urban and rural areas, and the reply was that a total of 45,934 houses was required up to last June. In Cork, we want at least 3,027, and we got a report from our medical officer last May which must surely arouse the interest not alone the people of Cork, but of the Minister and the Government. That report shows that the number of unfit houses which could not be made fit at a reasonable cost is 1,874; the number of unfit houses which could be made fit at reasonable cost, 1,902; the number of families in unfit houses is 2,351; the number of families overcrowded in unfit houses which could be made fit at a reasonable cost, 979; and the number of families overcrowded in good houses, 796. Let the House note that—the number of families overcrowded in good houses was 796. The total number of families requiring to be rehoused is 4,126, and the number of adults requiring to be rehoused is 14,343, and the number of children 6,097, a total of 20,440.

I suggest to Deputy Flanagan that talk about increasing the grants and extending the period is no solution of the problem. I submit that, until we attack our housing problem on the lines I suggest, we will never deal successfully with it. It is about time this Government put men, women and children before the vain glory of institutions which they are trying to uphold.

Mr. MacCarthy

Deputy Hickey will remember his own experience and his difficulties as Lord Mayor and member of the Cork Corporation.

Mr. Hickey

Because the money people prevented us from building houses.

Mr. Burke rose.

Mr. Davin

Deputy Burke will settle this, as he settled many other things.

Mr. Burke

I have been successful in quite a number of cases.

Mr. Davin

Good luck to you, if you settle this, too.

Mr. Burke

This motion is a motion of vital interest to every public man and every person of goodwill. There is one point about the motion which I dislike. This matter of housing is entirely a national matter. The local authorities have their responsibilities in the matter of housing the people in their own areas, but the point is that, no matter where the money comes from, whether it comes from taxes or rates, somebody has to pay. The great majority of the people are taxpayers, and possibly a minority ratepayers, but they will pay anyway.

I look on this problem of high rents from a very serious point of view, because it is a problem which is crippling our people. I have here an example under the system brought in by the Government which Deputy Flanagan supported. Here is just an example. A road worker in County Dublin got an increase of 10/- per week, and following that he got a notice to the effect that his rent had been increased by the Dublin County Council to £1 7s.

Mr. Davin

By the county manager.

Mr. Burke

By the county manager. The guardian angel of the road workers in the county is a member of that county council, and was a party to that transaction.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

I doubt very much his being a party to that decision.

Mr. Davin

It is a reserved function.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy should be allowed to make his speech without interruption.

Mr. Burke

That Deputy said to me a week ago that I was not a member of the county council.

Mr. Davin

I did not.

Mr. Burke

Not you but another. This is a vicious system which has crept into the lives of our people. I am fighting against that particular system and will continue to do so until my death. During the time Deputy Keyes—a decent man— was Minister for Local Government I had to put down a question to expose this vicious system because, during the administration of Deputy Keyes, a man got an increase of 5/- a week and the Dublin County Council took 3/6 of that 5/- in rent. That man was a road worker. When a road worker or any other worker gets a few shillings of an increase it is decreased by the differential rents system.

Mr. Davin

By how much?

Mr. Burke

I say to all local authorities all over the country that they should face up to their responsibilities in this matter. We ought all to be as fair as we possibly can to all sections of our people.

Mr. Davin

On a point of order. The Ceann Comhairle himself ruled— I suppose rightly—that differential rents could not be discussed within the limits of the terms of the motion.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I was about to point out that the question of differential rents is not included in this motion and should not be discussed. It could be referred to in passing but not discussed at the length the Deputy is discussing it.

Mr. Burke

Other speakers had to refer to it. It is easy enough for any member of the Opposition to blame the Government for every single thing that occurs. People who are themselves members of local authorities—and there are a number of Deputies on both sides of the House who are members of local authorities—have a very serious problem to face up to.

Mr. Hickey

The question is how best to meet the situation.

Mr. Burke

I am suggesting a complete exchange of views between the various county councils. I must say that certain county councils are more successful in having low rents for their tenants than other councils. I am not going to go into details as to how they are able to do this but so long as our people draw small salaries and pay high rents the children will be neglected and the homes will be neglected.

There is another section of our community which is very hard hit although the Government and the local authorities have done their best to assist them. I refer to the white-collar worker. With the high rents, a number of the white-collar workers can hardly carry on at all. I cannot see how the problem can be solved by a motion of the kind put down by Deputy Flanagan. This is too serious a problem to be tackled by a motion of that kind. The best way to deal with the problem would be to appoint a fact-finding commission composed of members from county councils all over the country as well as officers of the Department of Local Government. Deputy Hickey quite rightly referred to the cost of money. I hope some day to see him on the Central Bank so that things will be managed properly.

Minister for Local Government (Mr. Smith)

I hope so.

Mr. Hickey

The matter is a little deeper than that.

Mr. Burke

The cost of money and high interest charges have to be taken into consideration, and unless we can devise some method to solve this probelm I do not know what will happen. Day after day I have had to appeal either to the Dublin Corporation or the Dublin County Council on behalf of people paying rents. I have tried to put up charitable excuses on their behalf. I have visited the homes of a number of these people and I say that the position is serious. I have endeavoured to find a solution to the problem. I know that the Minister, the Government and the Fianna Fáil Party as a whole have been trying to solve this matter and it would be a great thing for Fianna Fáil, as a Party, to find a way out of the difficulty. It would be a great asset to the country.

This problem is completely above Party politics and it will take the wholehearted co-operation of every intelligent Deputy on all sides of the House and of every county council to try and solve the question because solved it will have to be.

Mr. MacCarthy

The trouble is the recent impact on the economy of the home.

Mr. Davin

I fully agree with Deputy Burke that this is a national matter and should not be discussed on the basis of Party politics for the purpose of scoring political points. I agree only with the portion of the motion which asks the Minister to use his good offices to see that reasonable rents are charged for the houses to working-class tenants because it is nearly all people of the working class who occupy houses built by local authorities. I would ask the Minister to see that the rents of these houses are brought within the incomes of the tenants present or prospective.

All those who know Deputy Burke well know that he is a big-hearted Deputy, but he cannot always get into his head what he has in his heart. I know he means well and tries to settle every problem whether local or national. He has succeeded to some extent in settling very difficult and contentious disputes. I say that sincerely.

Does not everybody, including Deputy Burke, know that under the existing financing of our Housing Acts the rents charged to tenants is directly related in almost all cases to the cost of erecting the houses?

Mr. Burke

I agree.

Mr. Davin

The principle is that the rent is made up by the tenant and the taxpayer, and, where the local authority decides—not all local authorities have so decided—by the ratepayer, in areas where the local authority agrees to make a contribution from the rates so as to bring down the rent to the tenants. The one point I want to bring to the Minister as forcibly as I can is that the rents of houses built by the local authorities should be brought back to the percentage basis that existed in pre-emergency days, before 1939.

The information supplied by Deputies to his own Department and the information that I have from my own constituency, having surveyed the situation, shows that the average rent paid by the tenant of a local authority house prior to 1939 was on the basis of one-eighth or one-ninth of the income of the head of the family occupying that local authority house.

Mr. MacCarthy

In some cases one-sixth.

Mr. Davin

I am suggesting one-eighth or one-ninth is the average. I know cases and places—Deputy Flanagan mentioned one of them when he referred to the scheme in Portlaoighise—where the rents charged for houses recently built and occupied by working-class people is one-third of the weekly income of the occupying tenant. Surely that is not a sensible state of affairs. Surely it is a state of affairs that must be rectified.

Mr. Smith

There must be some other members of the family also earning a living in that house.

Mr. Davin

Only in some cases. The Minister knows more than I know, and he must know that, on the average, anyway, the one-eighth has been brought down to one-fourth. I hope the Minister will not challenge the accuracy of that statement.

Mr. Smith

It is entirely inaccurate.

Mr. Davin

I assert that the situation, as I know it, must be rectified. How is it that the very same class of house built in Portlaoighise for £1,700 or £1,800 was built in another town in the same county by direct labour at a lower cost, with the result that the rents charged, as the Minister knows, are much lower for the houses built by direct labour than the rents charged for houses built under contract. I make that statement to substantiate what I am saying.

The facts are in the Minister's Department. These matters have been the subject of representation to the Minister and his Department by the tenants concerned and by the members of the local authority. I was rather surprised to hear Deputy Flanagan say that the wording of this motion was adopted by the Laois County Council as a body. Perhaps he will explain further when he is replying because I would impress on Deputy Flanagan that under any scheme of monetary reform this will ultimately mean that more money will have to be paid to meet interest charges out of the pockets of the taxpayers and the ratepayers who subsidise these houses and, I suppose, indirectly out of the pockets of the tenants themselves as well.

An extension of the loan redemption period is not the solution to our problem. I do not profess to have any expert knowledge on this matter. It is a national matter and the whole financial structure of our existing housing legislation must be recast and should be recast even to meet the terms of the motion moved by Deputy Flanagan. I am not in favour of any scheme for the solution of this problem which will put more money into the pockets of the people in College Green. I do not know whether Deputy Flanagan has related the last part of the motion to the views I have often heard him express on the necessity for monetary reform. I do not think he has. I do not want to raise any contentious matters but the rents charged by local authorities in several towns in my constituency have been the cause of prolonged agitation on the grounds that they were excessive and make it impossible for the head of the house, especially where there is not other family income, to provide for his wife and children out of what remains after he has paid his high rent to the local authority. The Minister has a good many files in his Department to confirm what I am saying. I know that the solution will not be found immediately he stands up to speak.

Mr. Smith

I may not stand up at all.

Mr. Davin

The Minister has experience of local authorities and he knows more about this problem than I do. Will he admit or will he deny that the rents charged, whether excessive or reasonable, are definitely and directly related to the cost of building?

Our whole concern should be as far as we can to bring down the cost of building houses and in that connection I appeal especially to members of local authorities and to Deputy Flanagan in my own constituency. If they do that they will be making some contribution to the demand for more reasonable rents. In connection with houses built in Wexford, Carlow, Kilkenny, Rath-downey and other places thousands of pounds have been saved to the ratepayers because the houses were built under the direct labour system. The Minister must have all that information on his files.

Mr. Smith

The officials often turn up too many files for my taste.

Mr. Davin

I ask the Minister to turn up the files dealing with the 88 houses built in Wexford. Deputy Crotty has told us—and we all know what his view is—that in Kilkenny they saved £250 per house by building houses under the direct labour scheme. I am relating this to the necessity for bringing down the cost of building because that is the way in which to bring down the cost of rents. I am not advocating the adoption of the direct labour system for the purpose of wiping out contractors. I say that the system should be experimented with in those areas where groups of contractors combine and through their organisation make each other aware at any rate of the cost of the tenders they are submitting.

There is a building ring in existence. If the Minister does not know it he should ask his colleague, the Minister for Industry and Commerce, and he will give him some information on the operations of these rings. Building contractors are entitled to get a reasonable profit out of their operations. I will not defend a system which gives £400 per house profit to a building contractor because that profit is made at the expense of the ratepayers, the taxpayers, and the tenants.

The Minister will dodge this issue. I have an idea from the remarks he has dropped that he is opposed to the direct labour system. I am appealing to him to experiment with that system in those areas where there is evidence of a building ring operating at the expense of the taxpayers, the tenants and the ratepayers. There is a commission with very wide powers investigating this matter in Great Britain at the present time. Those Deputies who read some of the English papers may have read about it. I read all kinds of papers when I have the time.

Mr. L. Walsh

Even the Irish Press.

Mr. Davin

I read the Irish Press and the Sunday Press and every other press in the early hours of the morning before I get up with all the pillows I can find at the back of my head.

Mr. O. Flanagan

You would need them to read the Irish Press.

Mr. Davin

I think it is good for people to read, and the person who does not read every side of the story is simply not educating himself to do his job here.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I am afraid we cannot discuss that on Deputy Flanagan's motion.

Mr. Smith

We are getting on bravely.

Mr. Davin

Yes. But my friend, the Mayor of Drogheda, Deputy L.J. Walsh, seems to be surprised when I admit that I read the Irish Press and the Sunday Press. I would recommend everybody else to do likewise.

Mr. Smith

Apparently they do not need to be encouraged to do so, having regard to the circulation.

Mr. Davin

I can assure the House that I am not an agent for these newspapers, lest anybody might think I am.

Mr. Cunningham

You are a good advertisement.

Mr. Davin

Deputy O. Flanagan has rendered a public service by raising this issue in the House. While I may agree to differ with him on certain parts of the motion, there is a definite case—a case which Deputy Flanagan has very forcibly put to the Minister— for reviewing the whole financial side of our housing legislation for the purpose of endeavouring to bring down the cost of building houses and of bringing rents down to a reasonable figure.

Mr. MacCarthy

Very many aspects of our housing problem have been touched upon in this debate. The biggest and the most serious of our national needs is the building of houses for people in our community who cannot afford to do so for themselves. The principle of tenant-purchase should be encouraged in every way so that people will ultimately become the owners of their own houses. While they are purchasing their houses it will be their responsibility to care for them and to look after them in their own interests just as it would be their responsibility if they were renting the houses from the municipality or from somebody else.

I agree with Deputy Hickey that even though the rents being charged for houses to-day are related to the cost of the house—after deduction of Government grant and so forth—they are very high and are having a weekly impact on the economy of the home. That is the problem which we have to tackle. That is why I agree with Deputy Hickey in his remarks about an extension of the period for purchasing the house even though it would involve the payment of more interest, and so forth. An extension of the period would enable the family to cater more adequately for their own needs. The aim, then, should be to reduce rents in so far as we can and to reduce them in an emphatic way.

Deputy Davin has raised the question of direct labour. As Deputy Hickey knows, we tried both systems in Cork. On one side of the city we have direct labour in a big way and on the other side of the city we have the contract system at work in an equally big way. Direct labour has some advantage though it is not a big one. In order to encourage the workers to do better, we pay them a bonus on the return they give in the building of houses.

Mr. Davin

That was also done in Wexford and in Carlow.

Mr. MacCarthy

The competitive system of building would, perhaps, help to reduce the cost of houses because the continuance of the direct labour system depends largely on the success of the scheme. If direct labour went out we should have to rely completely on the contract system. As everybody knows, these contracts are not always competitive. Sometimes contractors will say: "We will let such a man get that contract and we will get another one later. We will share around." That has been done in some cases. Those who examine tenders have no doubt in their minds about these matters even if it may be difficult to prove it. Figures, and so forth, often speak for themselves.

One way of trying to get the best production possible is to make competition keen. We must try to keep costs low, if the competitive market for supplies can control them. Cement and timber are now becoming more reasonable in price. Irish cement was reasonable in price all the time, but unfortunately the people in the south of Ireland have had to depend on imported cement. The extension of the cement factories will help us in our housing programme.

Another suggestion I would make to the Minister is that there should be a greater density of houses per acre than is the case at present. Some people who are working all day are not able to cope with the large gardens which are attached to their houses. The bigger the garden the higher the cost of the house because the cost of the land will be added to the cost of the house. In consequence, that matter deserves attention. I can understand that, in the heart of the city, it is unwise to have too much crowding, but it is a different matter when the housing schemes are spreading out into the suburbs and into the clear air of the countryside. I think, therefore, that there is some scope for erecting more houses per acre on the land that is purchased.

As soon as people are moved out to the suburbs from the towns and overcrowded centres, it should be absolutely insisted upon that suitable houses will be built on the ground that has been cleared. Sometimes such ground is left undeveloped for years just because there is space for, perhaps, only two, three or four houses. Roads, lighting, sewerage facilities, water and so forth are at hand and yet that ground is not developed just because perhaps only three or four houses can be built on it in conformity with the cubic capacity requirements of the Department. The point is that, no matter what type of house you build there, you will always, in a big community, find suitable tenants who are only too anxious to occupy them. You can have small houses for small families and recast the tenants of bigger houses in the interests of the community.

Generally speaking, I am inclined to agree with Deputy Burke that the whole housing programme requires to be examined. I was at the municipal conference which was held in Arklow last year. The Minister was there too. I would not describe Arklow as a country town, but rather as a seaside town of importance. They had very nearly coped with their housing problem there. Many such towns have very nearly solved their immediate housing problems: all they want in the future are replacements, repairs, and so forth.

As I said earlier, anything that can be done should be done to keep down the impact of high weekly rents. A reduction in the rents would enable the tenants to provide for their families in a better way and would make for a more satisfied community. I would also say that we ought to encourage tenant purchase schemes for houses generally. It is altogether wrong, to my mind, that municipalities should become permanent landlords of huge housing estates. The tenant should get an opportunity of purchasing his house at a reasonable annuity. The solution of our housing problem deserves, and I am sure will get, every encouragement from all sides of the House.

Mr. Hickey

To avoid any misunderstanding, Deputy MacCarthy stated that he agreed with me that the period of loans should be extended. I made no such suggestion and I wish to have that corrected.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

I believe this motion has served a very useful purpose in that it has given this House an opportunity to discuss this very important question. Like other Deputies, I am glad to see that the discussion has been raised above the level of party politics. I believe that, at the present time, it is accepted by all Parties in the country that a decent house is the first essential for any family and that, where families cannot provide such houses out of their own resources, there is a definite obligation on whatever Government is in power to provide houses for them or to make the best endeavour possible towards that end.

We all know that the one big obstacle is the financial one. It is all very well to say that we want this, that and the other, but we know that in order to implement any scheme we must get money. It is the main obstacle so far as the building of houses is concerned. The first item to be considered in that connection is the huge interest that local authorities have to pay on money they borrow. I know very well, being a member of a local authority for a number of years, that it is very difficult for many local authorities to meet their obligations, and I agree with that portion of Deputy Flanagan's motion which suggests that increased State aid should be made available. There is no question that more money should be made available from the central authority to provide houses for people who need them.

There is another big matter which has been agitating my mind for quite a time. I believe it is essential for this State to set up some commission on building costs. I have always had a very strong leaning towards private enterprise, but I believe that that system has been abused, and very grossly so, for a number of years. I do not want to comment adversely on any section of the community unless I feel that I am justified in doing so, but I am definitely of the opinion that building contractors have cashed in on the housing drive of recent years and are making excessive profits from it. It may be said that it is all very fine for a Deputy to stand up in this House and attack a section of the community who have no opportunity of answering him. I have never believed in these general references without giving some statements or some illustrations to support my contentions. I do not want to reduce this debate to a parochial issue but it is only natural for me to take examples from that portion of the country which I know very well.

I shall take these examples from West Cork. It is no pleasure for me to comment adversely on any section of the community that I represent in West Cork but I am definitely of the opinion that in West Cork alone—and I know very well it is happening all over the country—we have been exploited by building contractors. To give one illustration, at the June meeting of the Western Committee of the Cork County Council, a discussion arose as to accepting tenders for the building of two houses in the town of Bantry. According to the engineer and according to specifications, the development of the particular site in question would cost some £20, which for two sites was negligible. We received a tender for the erection of these two houses somewhere in or around £1,720 per house—an exorbitant and outrageous figure. I proposed the rejection of that tender. Fortunately my proposal was accepted and the tender was rejected. These houses were advertised again and tenders were received at the next meeting. The very same contractor who had tendered at the earlier meeting for these two houses at £1,720 each reduced his tender by £100 per house. That tender was accepted at the subsequent meeting of the committee held in the town of Castletownbere last July. I asked the question at that meeting had materials or wages been reduced in the meantime. They had not but what had happened was that at the second meeting we had four other contractors tendering as well.

I am not satisfied—and the question is one that should be closely examined by the Department of Local Government—that county councils or the Department of Local Government are getting the advice they should get from their engineering advisers down the country. At several meetings of the local authority of which I am a member we have been advised by the people whose duty it is to advise us on these technical matters, that these tenders were quite reasonable. I want to say that the engineering authority in that area strongly advised us last June to accept the tenders for these two houses. If we had accepted that advice it would mean that public funds would have to bear £200 more for building these two little houses in the town of Bantry. We have in that particular area houses costing £1,600 and £1,700. I am well aware that there has been a good deal of delay in the Department of Local Government in getting some of these tenders approved.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy seems to be going outside the terms of the motion.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

I am dealing with the question of building costs.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

If the Deputy would permit me, the Deputy seems to be travelling wide of the motion. I would ask him to keep to the terms of the motion as far as possible.

Mr. Davin

Are rents not related to the costs of building?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Murphy.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

With all respect, I accept your ruling, but I regarded building costs and how they could be reduced as one of the main items for discussion on this motion.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy has been relating his speech to the question of contractors, which is not mentioned in the motion at all.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

I am relating it to the question of costs, because it is our duty here, I believe—and that was the prime idea I think of the mover of the motion—to try to get building costs reduced, and to try to get increased State aid for the building of houses. I believe these questions are inter-related, and I am making the suggestion that we should set up a commission to go into the question of building costs. I am offering the opinion that building costs in my area are excessive, and I am satisfied that in other areas throughout the country from Cork to Donegal they are excessive. I believe that, if the matter was properly examined by the Department, that local authority houses could be built at £250 less. If the Minister were to increase his grant to local authorities by £250 a house he would probably say, and rightly so, that he was doing a very big thing. I want to ask him, why not start below and try to cut down the cost of building by that amount?

I entirely agree with the reference that was made by Deputy Davin to direct labour. This problem of house-building would, I believe, be solved if we had keener competition. We have a number of schemes in West Cork. Two were built under that system. The Minister can ascertain from the files of his Department that, under our direct labour scheme which was an experimental one, we saved at least £200 per house. It is particularly regrettable to find that a system giving such excellent results is not retained. I believe that is due to the undue influence which is brought to bear by certain people on certain members of local authorities and also—I do not know whether I should say this—on certain of their officials. The sooner we eradicate that type from these bodies and offices, the better.

This motion seeks to give extra money to the local authorities to provide houses for people who cannot do so for themselves from their own resources. That is a very big question. I believe local authorities should confine themselves entirely to the provision of houses for such people. We find that housing surveys are being made all over the country. In one area, the county medical officer of health, or other responsible authority, may recommend that six houses are required, in another area eight houses and in some other area twelve houses. The houses are duly built. It is subsequently found that the rents charged are too high for the people for whom they were intended. Their slender incomes do not enable them to pay the rent. In fact, we found that there was no competition for the tenancy of those houses from the people for whom they were originally intended. That has happened in some cases in West Cork. Even if some of those people did accept the tenancy of the houses, they would probably have to leave them within three months because they would not be able to pay the rent. The result is that people get the tenancy of these houses for whom the State is under no obligation to provide houses. We have many such houses in our towns and villages, built out of public funds and heavily subsidised. I suggest that those people have incomes which would warrant them paying at least the economic rent for the houses. I say that in such cases the occupants should be obliged to pay the economic rent.

I am anxious to ascertain from the Minister if he can devise any system to help unfortunate householders in a number of towns in my constituency, such as Dunmanway, Bantry and Skibbereen. These are people who are suffering from some physical incapacity or mental infirmity. They have to depend almost entirely on unemployment assistance or some sort of assistance from the local authority to enable them to maintain themselves and their families. They are living in wretched houses. They cannot avail of the houses provided by the local authority, because they have not the means to pay the rent for them. These Irish men and women, who are in that unfortunate position through no fault of their own, but through circumstances beyond their control, should get special consideration in the tenancy of local authority houses. They should get them at, say, a nominal rent of 1/- a week.

I know many such families in my constituency. I am sure there are many such in the constituencies of other Deputies, too. Their total income is under 30/- a week. They are not in the position to pay the inclusive rent that is charged in West Cork of 10s. 6d. a week for a cottage. That would represent more than one-third of their income. I believe it has been laid down as a maxim by many people in this House that the rent should not be more than one-tenth of the average income of a tenant. The people I refer to are labouring under great difficulties and disadvantages. Therefore, I suggest that they should get special consideration, and be enabled to avail of the tenancy of these houses at a nominal rent of 1/-or 2/- a week.

I have told the Minister, and I know it is correct, that there are some people who are exploiting us in the building of these houses. The advice that is given to us by our advisers is not all that it should be. I do not mean to reflect on all of them, but that applies to some of them. There should be some commission set up to inquire into the cost of house-building. The question of rents has been a bone of contention not only in this House but with local authorities.

I believe that if the Minister were to accept my suggestion he would find that useful results would flow from it. It would probably mean a saving of money in the building of houses. Consequently, it would not be necessary for him to increase the State aid by the limits set out in this motion. Generally speaking, the acceptance of my suggestion would, I believe, be of great benefit to the community as a whole.

Captain Giles

I believe that this motion is a very useful one.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Would the Deputy permit me for a moment? This debate will end at 1.37 p.m. I would like to know from Deputy Flanagan how long he will require to conclude.

Mr. O. Flanagan

Five minutes.

Captain Giles

This is a useful motion and has come forward at the proper time. We have reached a critical period so far as house building is concerned because money has got very costly. The position is that it is now almost beyond the capacity of the ordinary man to build a house for himself. People had great hopes in that direction up to last year, but these hopes have since vanished. Their hopes have now receded, as owing to the cost of money they would not be able to face the building of houses for themselves.

If this motion does no more than to focus attention on the great need for keeping the housing drive going it will have served a useful purpose. Over a long number of years a splendid job has been done in regard to housing the people in the cities and towns and in the rural districts. New houses have taken the place of the mud cabins and the thatched houses. There is, however, much work to be done still and there must not be any slackening or slowing up. It will be necessary to continue the housing drive for the next ten years so as to house the people at a reasonable rent which they will be able to pay. We can be proud of the work which has already been done in this matter under various Governments.

We must see, however, that the rents are reasonable. With the cost of money as it is at present it is impossible for any council to give a cottage to a tenant at a reasonable rent. Therefore it is only right that the grant should be made bigger to meet the rising cost of money and that the period of repayment should be extended. I believe the period should be extended to 50 years. After all, any house which is substantially built should last from 70 to 100 years. Cottages which were built in my county 70 or 80 years ago hardly ever needed any repairs. They are much better than many of the cottages we are building at present. If the repayment period were extended to 50 years, it would ease the burden very much on the local councils and the people who would occupy the houses. The matter should, therefore, be reviewed. A 50-year period for a well-built house is a reasonable period.

Mr. Smith

That is actually the period at the moment and the rate of interest at the moment is 2½ per cent.

Captain Giles

We have had some talk about the contract system and the direct labour system. I believe the contract system is a good one, but it requires to be closely watched. I believe that contractors in different counties play into each others' hands. One contractor will go in for the building of a group of cottages and the others will allow him to get the contract. Then another contractor comes along for the next group of cottages and he is allowed to go ahead. That is making building very costly and there should be a closer review of it. My county does not favour the direct labour system very much. It was tried on a small scale but was found to be very costly. It requires a great deal of supervision in order to get a good return from it. As I say, the contract system is a good one if it is well watched.

I do not believe we should give the building of too many houses to any one contractor. In my county one or two men can get a contract for building 100 houses each. There seems to be no limit to the time in which they are required to build them and sometimes the work is going on for years. A contractor who gets the building of 100 houses has not half of them finished within a year. I believe that ten or 20 houses is sufficient to give to any one contractor. That is as much as he will be able to cope with. If you give the building of 100 or 200 houses to any one contractor they will not be completed for many years.

I believe also that we should pay more attention to the building up of our small towns and villages, many of which are eyesores at present. We have directed all our attention for the past 30 years to the building of houses for the poorer classes. I believe the time has come when other classes who are almost in as great need should get some attention, such as middle-class people in the country areas. At present a large number of Civic Guards, teachers, nurses and other public officials in the different areas are retiring on pensions who are not able to build houses for themselves owing to the cost of money. In our villages and towns we should have schemes for the building of houses of a better class than the ordinary cottages which could be let at a reasonably good rent.

The local authorities should be encouraged to build up our villages and towns by providing this class of houses. If ten or 12 houses are built in any village for letting at a good rent there will always be people anxious to secure one of them. Our villages and towns are community centres in the country areas where the schools and the churches and the other amenities are located.

If new houses were built in these centres it would enhance the prestige of the country because visitors passing through them would see happy communities living in nice houses with lighting, sanitary and other facilities.

I am against the building of scores and scores of houses miles out in the country. You will find a house costing £1,200 or £1,500 occupied by, say, some old person of 75 years of age, four or five miles away from the nearest village and from a church and shops. The time has come when we must get away from building in the wild country areas. All our villages are three or four miles apart, and if we build in and around them, it will promote community life. A lot of drudgery and misery is caused in country areas when cottages are built three or four miles away from shops, schools and churches. I find that when we have some cottages to let in such areas it is very hard to get tenants to go into them, because they are too far away from the nearest village or town.

I ask that some attention should be given to the building of houses for middle-class people. So far as my county is concerned, when the present schemes are completed, we will have sufficient cottages built for the class of people requiring them. There is a great need for houses for middle-class people who are unable to build houses themselves, and that can be done by asking the local authorities to go in more for the building up of our towns and villages. No matter what Government has been in power, the housing drive has gone on very well. It is a costly business, however, and the money factor is the main thing in connection with it. It places a big burden on the shoulders of the ratepayers and the taxpayers. But it was something that had to be done, because for hundreds of years our people were not alone kept out of the good land, but shoved into the byeways. For a number of years they have been gradually getting back and taking their rightful place in the life of the country.

The conditions under which the poorer people in the country live are a legacy from the conquerors who put the people out of their homes and obliged them to dwell in little mud cabins half a mile away from the public road where they cannot even build a boreen and where they have to bring their little provisions in a sack on their back. These are the people who were driven down there by Cromwell and his satellites in years gone by. The housing of those people in the highlands so that they can participate adequately in community life is a great national need. I am glad that work in this connection is going on and I hope that in a short number of years we will have the housing of our people almost completed. One of the things freedom has brought us is the opportunity of bringing contentment and happiness to the homes of rural Ireland.

I would ask the Minister to review the position to see that the cost of houses is reduced as much as possible. We must endeavour to charge only a reasonable rent and one that is in proportion to the income of the person who is going to occupy that house. The wages of the workers in country areas are extremely low and I suppose will remain so because, after all, the agricultural labourer is the hewer of wood and drawer of water; he is the hardest worked and the worst paid member of the community. These are the people who are generally housed in the country areas so we must ensure that they are not obliged to pay a high rent. We must see that these people are able to clothe, feed and bring some comfort to themselves before we put a heavy tax on them. They are a good type of people and they will pay reasonable rents promptly. It is our duty to see that they are in a position to pay the rent.

I would ask the Minister to make every effort to see that more houses are built and that we get full value in the building of those houses. Most of these contractors play into each other's hands and I do believe they are getting a handsome reward out of the building of houses for the people. It is my opinion that many of the houses being built by contractors will not stand the test of time as will the houses built 75 years ago or so. In my county we have two, three or four flying squads going around to repair the cottages. I am sorry to say that it is the cottages built in the last ten or 20 years that have to be put in repair. The old cottages built over 75 years ago very seldom need repair and do not involve the ratepayers in expense. Therefore, we must come to the conclusion that the newer houses are badly built and that bad contractors built them. In that way a good deal of public money was wasted. I am not blaming Governments, but it is most unfair that these men should reap the benefit at other people's expense. We must keep a close eye on what is going on and see that those whom we find out are severely punished.

It is very desirable that our engineers should scrutinise very closely the building of every house and that continued inspection should be carried out. I do not believe that there is half the amount of inspection which there should be; consequently certain people are getting away with trickery which should be prevented. If these matters get proper attention the people will be prepared to spend the money. In housing our people we are doing something of great national value.

There were many people who were prepared, in my county at least, to strike out to build houses for themselves. The increased charges for loans last year have been a serious setback to them. There are scores of lovers all over the country who were planning and dreaming of building houses of their own, of marrying and settling down. They cannot do that at the present moment. Something should be done to enable such people to obtain the necessary facilities to build their own houses. It is all right for the county council and such bodies to build houses, but I would far rather see encouragement given to the man who is prepared to fend for himself in this regard. We have cut them out of the picture. They are unable to fend for themselves at the present time.

I hope the Minister will make every effort to make money available at a reasonable charge and, perhaps, have the repayments spread over a fairly long period. It would be an excellent gesture towards fostering individual initiative and enterprise. It is wonderful to see people providing for themselves in this way; it is a desirable development so long as it is subject to proper supervision by the officials of the State.

I believe this motion has served a useful purpose even if it has done nothing more than allow us to have this talk in the House, because it is needed. The building of houses is one of our main concerns, and I must pay a tribute to all native Governments for the extent of the development which has taken place in regard to housing. They have got that programme going full steam ahead. I hope that within the next ten years or so the programme will have so developed that all our people will be properly housed and in a happy position. Then we can say the State is making progress.

Mr. Cogan

In view of the short time available, would it be possible to continue the debate for a little longer, with the agreement of the House? It would be hardly worth while making time available on another day.

Mr. Davin

Until two o'clock? How long does the Minister want?

Mr. Smith

I am not sure that I want any time at all.

An Ceann Comhairle

If the House agrees.

Mr. Cogan

I am rather inclined to agree with Deputy Hickey that this motion does not serve any useful purpose or at least that it will not succeed in providing a solution for the housing problem that faces us. We all realise that it is essential to provide houses for our people and every local authority in the State is, I think, doing its best. I have not very much sympathy with those members of local authorities who have stated that they are being robbed by their contractors. They have one easy remedy at their disposal and that is, to build their own houses by direct labour. In the county which I represent that system has operated since long before the recent war and an enormous number of very fine houses have been built at a cheap rate by the local authority by direct labour. I am not in favour, of course, of cutting out the contractor. Let the two systems compete actively and on equal terms with each other and in that way you will get the most efficient system of house building. Let those county councils who claim that they are being robbed by contractors speak sharply, if you like, to their county engineers and tell them to get going, to employ their men in building houses. In that way that particular problem may be solved.

That is not so much what we are concerned with now. This motion seeks to secure from the central authority additional grants to supplement those at present being given to the local authorities for housing. I quite agree that under the present expensive system it is extremely difficult for the local authorities to face the problem of increased house building.

It is very difficult and very hard to place upon the local ratepayers the additional burdens required to meet this important need. However, it is equally hard to see how we can place additional burdens upon the general taxpayer. For six or nine months we have been listening to complaints about the manner in which the general taxpayer is being burdened. Whether he is a cigarette smoker, a beer drinker, an income-tax payer or anything else, complaints have been made about the burdens that have been placed upon him. This motion seeks to put an additional burden on the shoulders of the taxpayer. It would have been better, perhaps, if the proposer of the motion had indicated what particular tax he desired to see imposed upon the general taxpayer with a view to providing the necessary money for these essential grants.

Mr. O. Flanagan

Dance halls.

Mr. Cogan

I do not think that would suffice if you are going to consider providing anything worth while to supplement the needs of all the local authorities in this country or that it would have any effect on the cost of houses to intending occupiers. If you were to impose a sufficiently high tax on dancing to finance those grants, it would make dancing absolutely prohibitive.

I do not think we will get very far by passing this motion. I have a good deal of sympathy with the views expressed by Deputy Hickey. For a long time I have felt that the cost of money, particularly for essential works which do not provide recoupment to any extent, is too high. There is a type of work—such as housing, afforestation, land reclamation, rural electrification and such projects—which involves a terrifically high capital cost but which produces only a modest revenue.

The only revenue you can obtain from the building of houses directly is the rent which the tenant is able to pay. As we know, with the present cost of money, the rent which the tenant can pay forms only a very small portion of the interest charged on the capital cost of that house, making no allowance whatever for the payment of the principal. As Deputy Hickey pointed out, if we had not that heavy interest charge the tenant would be able over a long period to repay the entire principal without any assistance either from the ratepayer or the general taxpayer.

I have great sympathy with the view expressed by Deputy Hickey, and I have often wondered if there is any solution to this problem. I remember there was once a Monetary Reform Association, and I had the honour of being invited to a conference it held in Deputy Flanagan's constituency. I do not know what became of it. I think it just melted away like the snows of summer.

Mr. Hickey

You know Seamus Lennon?

Mr. L.J. Walsh

It has been put into cold storage.

Mr. Cogan

The difficulties that face us appear to be insurmountable, but if we have patient men like Deputy Hickey, who keep plodding along persistently advocating what they believe in, it is likely to be done in the end.

Mr. Hickey

It would be a long job.

Mr. Cogan

Being a realist, I realise the difficulties you are up against. The whole financial and banking system is a world system, and it is not confined to this country.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is not relevant to this motion.

Mr. Cogan

We are trying to see how we can reduce the cost of housing.

An Ceann Comhairle

It specifically states "State grants" and does not flow over into side wells.

Mr. Cogan

I am dealing with the motion in the same way as with a Bill on Second Reading. I think I am entitled to submit alternatives to the suggestions contained in this particular motion and the suggestion I want to make is Deputy Hickey's proposition, which he explained at considerable length here. If the Minister thinks there is anything in it, any way we could cut through the entanglements of the existing financial system, it would be well to examine it. If he thinks it needs examination, I would suggest he should not proceed along the lines we have proceeded on in the past.

We set up two banking commissions, composed mainly, not of the people who were the victims of the financial system but of people who operated the system. If we are setting up a banking commission again—I think we should; I am going to propose that we should do so—I think it should be a Select Committee of this House to inquire into the whole system of banking, currency and credit——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will have to leave that point.

Mr. Cogan

I am just concluding the sentence—and we should invite before that commission the representatives of the bankers and put them through a cross-examination, as I know Deputy McGilligan, the Minister, Deputy Hickey and others, would be capable of doing. Now, that is my suggestion, and I suppose I have got it in, in spite of the Chair. Other people have spoken along the same lines, but I do not intend to proceed further along that line.

I have taken a considerable number of notes of points made by other speakers, but, on examining them, they appear to be mostly irrelevant to this particular discussion, so that all I can say is that I do not think this motion will solve the problem that we are facing. As far as extending the period of repayment is concerned, the motion will not achieve very much, unless we can get Deputy Hickey's proposition into operation by which interest rates would be brought to a nominal figure. Where you have high interest rates, however, the mere extension of the period of time for repayment does not bring very much relief. As the Minister has pointed out, it is true that, at the present time, money is available to local authorities at a much lower rate than that at which it is provided under the existing banking system, at the existing interest rates. I do not know whether it will be possible for the Minister to continue to provide money at that rate or not, but I think that an effort should be made to do so. The local authorities are making a great effort in both urban and rural areas. Whatever we may do about reforming the whole banking system, I think that, at least until the existing housing schemes have been completed, we should see that they get the money at at least the present rates of interest, as long as that can be done.

I listened with a feeling of amusement to Deputy Giles objecting to our putting people out in the rural areas. Evidently the flight from the land is now complete, and as far as County Meath is concerned Deputy Giles is going to fight against any attempt to have any distribution of the population away from the urban areas.

Captain Giles

The Deputy wants to keep them in the bogs still. I want to put them into community centres.

Mr. Cogan

County Meath is not all bog.

Captain Giles

There are plenty of bogs in it.

Mr. Cogan

Some of their representatives are inclined to get into bogs occasionally. In housing our people, we should realise that this is an agricultural country and our aim should be to house our agricultural workers as near to their employment as possible. Let us not have green mossy desert all over County Meath. Let us have cultivated fields and nice homes dotted through them for our agricultural workers, where they will be near their work, where they can cultivate their plots of land with the assistance of their employers, and where they can live in comfort and security——

Captain Giles

You are very innocent.

Mr. Cogan

——instead of trying, as Deputy Giles suggested, to crowd them into towns and cities. I ask the Minister—I know that I am not appealing to an unsympathetic heart when I say this—to try to find some means by which we can circumvent the banking system, or, if you like, the financial system of the world, and get money cheaper for this essential work of housing. The farmer gets 1 per cent. on the money he puts in the bank, and if we could only get some of that money for housing, it would be a help. Set up a Select Committee of the House and bring the bankers before it, and question them why they cannot make money available, by way of loan, at a little more than the rate they pay the farmer as interest on his deposit, if he has a deposit in the bank.

Mr. Smith

I suppose I should say what I have to say on this motion before the time runs out. I am against it, and I know a great many reasons I could advance for that attitude. I was just thinking here that this is the second motion in succession with which I have had to deal which asked the State to take greater responsibility in a financial sense. A previous motion dealt with roads and suggested that the State should meet the full cost of the maintenance of roads of a certain type. This motion suggests that the State should improve on what it is doing already, and has been doing for a great many years, to the extent of increasing its contribution by 50 per cent.

I will not say all the things one could say to meet that type of argument and plea and to deal with that frame of mind because it is not worth while. All I will say is that it is accepted everywhere that we, as a people, have been doing our best in this matter of housing. That is recognised by people who come to visit us and to examine the whole position with regard to housing, people who have made a study of it in many parts of the world. At a recent conference held in Lisbon, our representatives who attended it satisfied themselves that we were well in front of those countries who had the same sort of problem as we had—the problem of rising costs, dear materials, high wages, low output and the difficulty of fixing rents acceptable to incoming tenants and rents which it is possible for them to pay. They had all these problems to deal with just as we have, and the best minds of economists and financiers have been applied all the world over to finding the solution which can be so easily found by Deputy Hickey and others that one is sometimes prone to think that it is a pity that the determination of these high policy matters for the world was not left in the hands of people of the type of Deputy Hickey.

Mr. Hickey

You have not got much to be proud of if that is what you have to tell us.

Mr. Smith

I was somewhat satisfied, though I suppose that is not the right way to put it, to see that we were as advanced in this matter as other peoples, and more advanced than most, and that the problems which we found it difficult to find a solution for were the problems that presented the same awkwardness to the peoples of other lands whose responsibility it was to examine them.

Mr. Hickey

Do you find consolation in that?

Mr. Smith

It would not be fair to say that it was a consolation. What I want to convey is that we were not behind in any way in our efforts, and that if a solution of that problem could be found elsewhere, we would probably have found it, too.

Mr. Davin

You were not far behind Mr. Butler.

Mr. Smith

I have listened to this discussion and I realise, as Deputies realise, that the taxpayer over a long period of years has made a very vital contribution to the housing problem and to the encouragement of local bodies to tackle the problem in their respective areas. I know only too well that, in spite of that contribution, many of these local bodies have their difficulties subsequently. The fixation of rents in view of these enormous costs is no easy matter, but it is entirely wrong to say, as has been suggested by some Deputies, that incoming tenants in the type of income group mentioned here would have been charged the rents that were spoken of.

It seems to me that the Deputies who made that case must have been completely unaware of the fact that there were perhaps some other members of the family living with the tenant, even if the tenant himself was not in receipt of any wage or was in receipt of a small wage.

That is where I find the difficulty arising through the country, that the tenants of these houses, and their sons and daughters who may be earning, do not want to have these earnings regarded at all as a factor in the determination of rents. Of course, naturally, that is a modern tendency. They think they can come in and occupy a house built for them and their parents and that their remuneration should not be taken into account in fixing the rent. But the local body which has to impose increases in rates and so on has to have regard to these factors, and, taking it all in all, although we have not at any time said to a local body that they must adopt this or that particular system of renting, I must say that the system which most local authorities have decided to adopt seems to work out fairly enough. There is a good deal of criticism of it of one type or another. Having regard to the cost of building, it would be very difficult to see how they can continue that programme unless some such system is continued.

Mr. Hickey

Is the Minister satisfied that a house costing £1,600 should be liable for 27/8 per week for interest alone?

Mr. Smith

Deputy Cogan suggested that we should bring the bankers before a committee. I would love to be on that committee. I have been before bankers in respect of my own personal business. I found them capable of asking all kinds of awkward questions. If I were a member of the committee, I am sure I would think of quite a lot of awkward questions to ask them. I think also that any questions I could ask them would not be half so embarrassing to them as the questions they would ask me.

Mr. Hickey

That is not an answer to my question.

Mr. Smith

No matter for what purpose you borrow money, is it not a fact that in the repayment of it over a long period the same story would have to be told in the end? Deputy Hickey and others like him have talked for a long time about the simple solutions to this problem. If we took the course the Deputy suggests would solve the housing problem, why should not the same solution be found for every other problem so far as money is concerned? Why should I pay 6 per cent. on my overdraft to give employment in the working of my land and the production of wheat, beet, etc.? Why should the house builder have the special concession of low rates of interest any more than those who are engaged on work of equal importance from the national point of view?

Mr. Hickey

Does the Minister want me to answer that? It is because financial interests are so powerful that no one is prepared to interfere with them.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

The Deputy is trying to ascertain the size of the Minister's overdraft.

Mr. Smith

One could continue talking about these matters for weeks. We had a discussion on the Housing Bill which is now the Housing Act of 1952 when this whole field of housing was covered as completely as Deputies thought fit. There was nothing new to be said in the course of the discussion of this motion. Nobody could expect that anything new would be possible having regard to the amount of time that was given the House to discuss housing over the last 25 years.

Since there is agreement on the matter of housing on all sides of the House, I do not think it helps very much for public men and those of us who are members of local authorities to keep a sort of campaign going which would tend to encourage those who want to find a very easy way out of a fairly difficult position when nobody else can say how that easy way can be found. If an easy way out could be found which could be followed it would be a good thing.

The cost of building and building materials has gone up enormously since 1932, 1933, 1934, 1935 and 1936. The cost of labour has gone up and the output of the labourer has gone down fairly substantially. No matter how one may look at it, these are very serious problems. It is a bad course for us, as public men, to encourage people to think there is an easy way out. It only impedes the good work that is being performed by local bodies.

Mr. Hickey

That statement is poor consolation to the 45,000 families who want houses.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

Could the Minister say how the output of the labourer has gone down?

Mr. O. Flanagan

It is the Government's duty to provide the people with houses—houses for which they can pay. Deputy Hickey, in the course of his address, hit the nail on the head when he said that if it were not for the high rates of interest charged for money in respect of houses, the rents would be considerably lower to-day. Everybody knows that quite well. I knew it when I was tabling this motion. Financial interests are so influential and powerful here that they cannot be touched. No attempt was made by the present or previous Governments to tackle the problem. This housing problem will certainly be a burning one. You will have unemployment and emigration—the twins associated with the shortage of money. We are bound to have those things until our present banking system is tackled properly.

My idea in tabling this motion was for the purpose of having a discussion to see what immediate relief could be given. I hoped that there would have been some way of bringing about substantial relief to the people who have already moved into new houses and who cannot pay for them. It is a sad and disastrous thing at the present time. We have had at the expense of the taxpayer new houses erected which are now becoming rookeries for the crows. Local authorities cannot get tenants. The tenants cannot pay the rents.

Mr. Hickey

The £ is mightier than the people and the Minister is afraid to tackle the problem.

Mr. O. Flanagan

That is right. The problem is not being tackled nor has it been tackled. The problem of houses is not being tackled in the right spirit. Deputy Burke told us to-day of a man who received an increase of 10/- and the moment he received that the local authority increased the rent of his house. That is no encouragement to the working class people who are in poor circumstances and anxious to get new houses. The story Deputy Burke told the House was no encouragement to people to get into new homes.

The Minister holds out no hope of encouragement to local authorities to carry on the housing drive. County councils have done their part. The only difficulty we see is that the people cannot pay the rents because they are altogether too high. Some steps should be taken to solve this problem for all time as Deputy Hickey says. The Government should take some steps to see that some measure of relief is given to the people so that they can have at least a decent roof over their heads.

I am sorry to see that the Government has not taken some action in this respect long ago. I can only express disappointment at the Government's housing programme. They should see that houses are provided for the working class people at a reasonable rent.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

The Dáil adjourned at 2 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 9th December, 1952.