Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 4 Mar 1953

Vol. 136 No. 14

Committee on Finance. - Vote 2—Houses of Oireachtas.

Minister for Finance (Mr. MacEntee)

I move:—

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £11,500 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1953, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Houses of the Oireachtas, including a Grant-in-Aid.

This Supplementary Estimate is necessary to meet the increased travelling expenses of members of both Houses of the Oireachtas. The total sum required is £11,500, made up of £10,000 travelling expenses for Teachtaí and £1,500 for Seanadoirí. The figures are, of course, approximate and must provide some small margin in order to ensure that the expenses claimed will be fully met. I might explain that the expenses will be duly allowed in respect of the mileage travelled.

The increased travelling allowances which came into force on the 1st April last superseded a scale which had been fixed so far back as August, 1944, that is eight years ago. I think everybody will agree that the scales which were then determined fall far below the actual cost which Deputies have to meet to-day in the course of travelling on their public duties.

Mr. Sweetman

I endorse the last sentence. The fact is that though the amounts paid reimburse portion of the cost of travelling expenses they do not, in fact, meet the total cost. Speaking for myself, I know that that is so.

Mr. Lehane

Does the Minister not think that by increasing the allowance for travelling by road he will thereby divert traffic from the national transport system?

Mr. MacEntee

Under the lawDeputies are entitled to have their travelling expenses recouped—that is, their expenses travelling to and from the Dáil and on public business with Government Departments. Having regard to the heavy burden imposed upon Deputies we have to allow them to travel at their convenience. They cannot do that if they have to travel according to the fixed schedules of the public transport. It is essential that a good deal of latitude should be given to Deputies in regard to the times at which they make their journeys.

In order that there may be no misunderstanding of the situation outside I should say that, while not all Deputies travel by road because a great number of them do not have to travel at all and therefore do not get any allowances, the Deputies who do travel cover almost 750,000 miles per year. I am perfectly certain that no Deputy makes an unnecessary journey to Dublin on public business.

Mr. Corry

I would like to take this opportunity of bringing to the attention of the Minister and the House what I consider to be a grave injustice and a discrimination as between Deputies. I allude principally to the position of Dublin City Deputies who have no travelling to do in so far as their constituents are concerned. The same applies to practically all city Deputies.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy realises, of course, that we can only discuss what money is provided for here. If Dublin Deputies do not travel, then obviously no money is provided for them.

Mr. Corry

This money is provided to meet increased travelling expenses, and I think I am entitled to call the Minister's attention to an injustice that exists in that respect.

An Ceann Comhairle

The position of Deputies who do not travel and for whom money is not provided under this does not arise. That is obvious.

Mr. Corry

I hold that as far as Deputies representing rural constituencies are concerned enough money is not being provided.

An Ceann Comhairle

If the Deputy argues from that point of view I will not interfere. The Deputy was arguing about the Dublin Deputies. He said no money is provided for them. That is quite true. No money is provided for them and therefore their position cannot be discussed under this.

Mr. Corry

I am pointing out the difference that exists as between Deputies representing city constituencies and Deputies representing rural constituencies. If a Deputy representing a rural constituency works for his constituents, as I am glad to say most of them do, he finds himself in the position that he has to travel 40 and 50 miles every week-end. In fact he is pretty lucky if he gets away at that. In the city, a Deputy can travel his constituency in a 2d. bus. No allowance is made to rural Deputies for the type of travel to which I have referred. On the other hand, a premium is placed on Deputies to reside away from their constituency altogether. A Deputy living in Dublin can pick the nearest point in his constituency to the town he wants to visit and can land himself there from the city. He has no hotel bill to meet. He is in a very different position from the Deputy who represents a rural constituency and who resides in that constituency. I think that matter should be considered very carefully by the Minister. I think the system of Deputies' allowances and travelling expenses should be recast.

Mr. Desmond

I think no Deputy should remain silent on this matter. I agree with what the Minister and Deputy Corry have said, and I appeal to the Deputies representing the rural constituencies on both sides of the House to make their voices heard.

There is one point on which I would like the Minister to enlighten the House. This money is being provided because of an increase that has taken place since last April. It is well to remember that while there is an increase given on the one hand it is being taken away on the other, because the alteration in relation to the horsepower of motor-cars means that though a Deputy may get an increase in one way that increase is taken away fromhim in another way. Can the Minister give us any information on that matter?

Deputy Corry is correct in his approach. I am anxious that members should be honest and say what they really believe about this. A wrong impression exists outside. That is very true of the provincial newspapers and something should be done to dissipate that false impression. We all know that even with the present allowance it is not an economic proposition to run a car to Dublin. Some people may ask why run cars then? The answer to that so far as I am concerned it is an easy one. Deputies representing rural constituencies must have cars if they are to do their work for their constituents honestly and to the best of their ability. We have no alternative other than to drive to and from Dublin.

If the matter were approached from a common-sense point of view both inside and outside the House I think people would understand the position and be satisfied. The position is made difficult because of one Deputy complaining about some other Deputy and because one Party is anxious to press for a bigger allowance but is afraid that another Party may make political capital out of that. That is where all the trouble lies at present.

I do agree with this Estimate and I am saying it openly. I believe that if the people outside were told the facts there would be no dissatisfaction in their minds. If they were informed of the financial liabilities placed on country Deputies in this city for three days and nights in the week and if they were told of the cost of coming here and working for the constituency, the people would be quite satisfied, hard as it may seem to them.

I am also glad the Minister mentioned one point, because, for the last few weeks, many people in different walks of life and in different parts of the country, have drawn attention to what they considered as true, that there was an increase in what they call Dáil Deputies' salaries. The Minister is right in drawing attention to the fact that this money being provided is not an increase forDeputies under such a heading. We are dealing with travelling expenses. Finally, if the members in the House are willing to let the people understand the position, irrespective of Party or anything else, and if the provincial newspapers are informed of the facts as regards the financial liabilities placed on country Deputies coming here to serve the constituencies they represent, there would not be half the number of complaints there are at the present time owing to the public being ill-informed.

Mr. McGrath

I think it is only right to clear the air as far as talk outside regarding increasing travelling expenses to Deputies is concerned. As one of the numerous Deputies who travel up from the South by rail, it is well that the public should understand that we are given a railway voucher to obtain our ticket and nothing else. Any increase that is allowed in our expenses is due to an increased railway fare, which we do not see anyway, because we simply exchange the voucher at the ticket office for a ticket to Dublin. We get no further allowance, for subsistence or anything else, and I think it is no harm to clear the air in regard to the talk that is current outside.

Captain Cowan

What I feel in regard to matters such as this and points that have been raised here in regard to the expenses incurred by particular Deputies is that it is really a subject that ought to be dealt with in an all-Party way by means of a special committee. We had the same matter here recently in connection with the committee set up to deal with judicial salaries. We discovered that although, under the Constitution, the Judiciary are independent and it is desirable that matters relating to them should be dealt with by a special committee, particular Deputies wanted to make it a political issue. I feel that matters of parliamentary allowances and expenses and matters of judicial allowances and expenses are matters that ought to be dealt with in an all-Party way and not by public debate in the House.

All Deputies are paid an allowance.It is termed an allowance and it is considered an allowance because it is not subject and it is not considered subject to income-tax. It is an allowance of £624.

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not arise on this Estimate.

Captain Cowan

I am only mentioning it incidentally, and as far as Deputies in Dublin City are concerned that is what they get. They get no travelling allowances and I am anxious to clear the air up in regard to that. If the air is to be cleared I want to say that there are no expenses whatsoever provided for them except an allowance of £624 per annum.

There has been, as has been stated, quite a considerable amount of discussion in the newspapers and among the public to the effect that in an indirect kind of way expenses for Dáil Deputies are being increased. It is undesirable that that impression should be abroad. Under the Civil Service rules which apply there is very little likelihood of persons being paid expenses that they do not actually incur. The expenses that are being paid are certainly necessary expenses and are justified by the amount of travelling that is done. I have often wondered in regard to Deputies who travel by car to Dublin to meetings of the Dáil, whether it would not be much better if the particular car allowance was given to them for the year and to allow them to expend it any way they liked themselves. However, that is a matter that could best be considered by some type of all-Party committee of the House.

My reason for speaking at all was to clear the air as far as Dublin Deputies are concerned. We are not affected one bit by the Supplementary Estimate which the Minister has brought in and I think it is desirable that that should be made clear to our constituents.

Mr. Rooney

As previous speakers have stated, there appears to be a good deal of misunderstanding in the public mind regarding the increase in travelling allowances. Many people believe that every mile a Deputytravels in his car is paid for, whether the allowance be big or small. I heard somebody say regarding some Deputies living near the city that they were getting something like £6 a week towards the cost of running a car. In my particular case the increased allowance comes to about 5/- a week towards the running of a car. That increase is an adjustment compared, I think, with a figure which was determined in 1947.

Mr. MacEntee

1944.

Mr. Rooney

1944, but in 1944 I think petrol was about 2/6 a gallon. It is 1/3 a gallon dearer now. My car mileage to and from the City of Dublin is very small and consequently the allowance to me in respect of car expenses in the year or in the month is very small. As has been mentioned by one or two of the rural Deputies already, work in the county results in my putting up a very big mileage in the car. My mileage for 12 months last year was 28,000. In addition to that, I do six hours per day in the office. Any person putting these facts together can see that, in a larger constituency than mine, Deputies must put up a very big mileage, a mileage much larger than in my case.

It is not an unusual experience for a Deputy to have to get into his car four or five times a week and travel 30 miles to and from a meeting of some committee or another—a Red Cross committee, a parochial committee, a cottage tenants' committee, a development association, a Tóstal committee or any of these organisations which normally require the presence of Deputies. These different organisations feel that Deputies should co-operate with them as public representatives by coming to their meetings. Sometimes Deputies have more than one meeting to attend at night. Sometimes they have to attend meetings which might be ten or 12 miles apart. These are matters that are not taken into consideration when the expenses are being fixed towards the cost of running cars. As I say, the only matter taken into consideration is travelling to and fromthe Dáil or to and from a Department once in the week.

I am glad that an opportunity has been given here to have the matter debated because it enables Deputies from different parts of the country to make known in public the many problems confronting them and the expense involved. It is quite obvious from what I have said that, apart from the allowance made for travelling to and from the Dáil, Deputies must put their hands into their own pockets to pay for repairs to cars and for the petrol and oil consumption involved in travelling all over their constituencies. In my particular case the average mileage is over 80 miles, nearly 90 miles, per day. Sometimes it is well over 100; at other times it is only 50 or 60, but with cars travelling at 30 miles an hour, it does not require many hours' travelling in the day to bring the mileage well over 100. You must stop frequently at the petrol pump and keep the tank filled in order to do this travelling. The public expect the service which is being given by most Deputies in rural areas.

Of course, the position in regard to city Deputies is different so far as the car allowance is concerned, but it is very probable that city Deputies incur expenses that have not been made known in this debate. It is only right, when we are debating allowances, that they should make known the expenses they are obliged to bear which can measure up to the expenses allowed to country Deputies in respect of travelling just to and from the Dáil. I agree with Deputy Corry that some consideration should be given to Deputies in rural areas. It would be quite easy for these Deputies to give a list of the meetings which they are required to attend and the Minister for Finance could determine whether attendance at these meetings was proper and whether they were discharging a public duty by going to these meetings. Deputies are expected to attend all those meetings.

Captain Cowan

Is that not a very serious suggestion?

Mr. Rooney

That would be one way of deciding the matter.

Captain Cowan

It is a very serious suggestion to put Deputies under the control of the Minister for Finance.

General MacEoin

If the meeting were a Fine Gael meeting, he might not allow a Deputy to attend it.

Mr. MacEntee

We might be glad to send Deputy Rooney.

Mr. Rooney

I am not suggesting that we should be paid travelling allowances for going to meetings of a political character. What I am suggesting is that if we are required to attend meetings as public representatives—and there are many public meetings throughout the country which affect all sections of the community— the Minister might be in a position to determine that we are discharging our duties as public representatives by attending these meetings.

Captain Cowan

We would sacrifice our freedom to the Minister for Finance.

Mr. Rooney

I do not think I shall continue any further because Deputy Cowan, apparently, is not interested in the many problems that confront country Deputies.

Captain Cowan

I want to retain the freedom of parliamentary representatives.

Mr. Rooney

I hope anything I have said is not going to interfere with the freedom of parliamentary representatives. I am advocating that the public should be made fully aware of the expenses involved at the present time in public life. The Dáil allowance has not been adjusted since 1944 while all other wages, incomes and salaries have been adjusted and have been increased possibly by as much as 50 per cent.

An Ceann Comhairle

That looks like advocating new legislation.

Captain Cowan

If something is not done about it, none of us will go up for election the next time.

Mr. Rooney

The way some of us act, we need not go up for election the next time.

Captain Cowan

I think you are right.

Mr. Corry

I would be sorry to miss you.

Vote put and agreed to.