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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Friday, 13 Mar 1953

Vol. 137 No. 3

Committee on Finance. - Motion by the Minister for Finance (Resumed).

Last night, I was dealing with the financial position which this Government found when it had to prepare its Budget of last year and I read replies to two questions asked by me on 23rd April, 1952, which showed that the previous Government had borrowed, during the period of their existence,over £95,000,000 and had left a burden to be borne by this State in interest and sinking fund charges of £5,856,066 per annum for the next 30 years.

I suggest to Deputy Corish that you could build a lot of schools with a sum of £95,000,000; you could build a lot of new dispensaries, about which we had all the noise from Deputy Corish last night; and you could supply any number of water and sewerage schemes with it. But you could have done more than that. The money which was guaranteed by the Minister for Industry and Commerce for the erection of the sheet mill for Irish Steel Holdings, of which the estimated cost in 1947 was £140,000, could have been provided out of that sum. That project hung fire for three and a half years until Deputy Lemass came back as Minister and ordered the work to be proceeded with. What could have been done by the expenditure of £147,000 of that borrowed money is now costing £385,000. It would have meant an extra 100 men in constant employment and an extra relief in regard to our imports of sheet steel.

I want to add to that burden of £5,856,000 a year which this country has to pay for the luxury of having had a mixum-gatherum Government for three and a half years, the unpaid bills, as follows: C.I.E., £1,800,000; interest on C.I.E., stock unpaid, £433,000; arrears of fuel subsidies, £2,700,000; and the gift given by the then Minister for Health, Deputy Costello, and by Deputy Norton and Deputy Keyes in their respective Ministries, to certain sections of local authority officials the day after the Dáil dissolved, amounting to £855,000 for the taxpayers and £2,000,000 a year for the ratepayers; and the Civil Service, £3,600,000. This makes a total of £9,388,000, which added to the sum of £5,856,000, gives a total of over £15,000,000 which has to be provided by the Minister for Finance in this year's Budget, in addition to the provision for ordinary housekeeping expenses for the year.

That was a pretty hefty burden. A Government which apparently was governed by its weakest link and which left that burden for its successors in office has as much right to complainhere now as the farmer who spent all his substance has to complain when his sons take over the reins and start to get back what he has squandered. These spendthrift people now growl and complain about the manner in which we have to come together and endeavour to pay their debts. If I could see any improvement in conditions; if I could see 100 or 200 men put into constant employment; if I could see constant employment in industry; if I could see any new industry built up or anything done which would reduce our unemployment figures as a result of the squandering of this money, I could understand where the money went. Apparently there were no lasting results from the expenditure of that money. I do not know where the money went. It puzzles me to know on what they spent it but the fact remains that it was spent and that the people are now to be taxed to pay the principal and interest on it. In addition to having to provide for their ordinary household expenditure, the Government have to find £9,388,000 to pay unpaid bills.

What was that?

That was the money that you left unpaid to C.I.E. and the £3,600,000 which the arbitration board decided should be paid to civil servants which you forgot to provide for them. Those are the little things that matter. There was a present amounting to a bribe by different Ministers on the day after the Dáil dissolved when a letter was sent out to local authorities to pay certain sums retrospective for six months.

The Deputy is repeating himself.

It is merely for the information of Deputy Hickey.

The Deputy has already told me that three times in the House.

Apparently the Deputy does not yet understand the matter but I hope he understands it now. I am very anxious to get Deputy Hickey on my side in this matter.

If the Deputy talked sense he would.

I am talking sense enough for the Deputy. Deputy Hickey knows very well what would happen to him if he left his bills unpaid for six months. Deputy Corish commented on housing and said there was a hold up by local authorities. As far as I know the speed with which a local authority carries out its housing programme depends entirely on the members of that housing authority and on nobody else. I say quite frankly to Deputy Corish that I would not permit any hold up by any Department of any housing scheme that would be put through by the South Cork Board. If there was any such hold up I would endeavour to deal with the matter on the floor of the House. If Deputy Corish finds there is a hold up in the Department of any proposals in regard to housing in the County Wexford his duty is to come to the Dáil and speak. I have not found any such hold up. If I did, I promise the Deputy that my tongue would not be in my cheek.

Deputy Corry would probably get a better answer from the Minister for Local Government than I did.

The Deputy would be bound to get a straight answer. As Parliamentary Secretary the Deputy was long enough attached to the Department of Local Government to know how to get an answer. He had advantages which I had not.

I am sure the Deputy read the reports of the Cork Corporation in the Cork Examinerlast Wednesday and saw the statement made by Deputy McGrath.

Cork City is endeavouring to get the country fools to build houses for them there.

That is well said.

I am well aware of that.

Well said.

The Deputy should not interrupt. He can make his own speech later.

I think we have donefairly well, considering the extra burden of £15,000,000 which was put on our backs. I do not know where the 80,000 unemployed are.

The 90,000 unemployed.

The 90,000, the 100,000 or 200,000. I do not know where they are. I do know, however, that in my constituency the situation has improved as regards unemployment. It is not so long ago since myself and Deputy O'Gorman were present at the opening of a factory in Youghal. If Deputy O'Gorman is anywhere in the House I am sure he will bear me out in that. That factory would not have been erected were it not for the present Government. I am sure that industry gives a pretty considerable amount of increased employment. The slackness in employment which obtained recently in the town of Midleton, due to the importation of 1,500,000 yards of foreign shoddy by the previous Government, has disappeared. Not alone are the people working full-time, but they are working overtime in the mills there. I find the same position in Cobh. I admit that there is a slack period in Rushbrooke Dockyard. I would suggest to the Minister that it is about time he changed the management of it. If there was a little less of the work in Dublin Dockyard——

That is administration and does not arise.

——and a little more of the work done in Rushbrooke, it would be better. I am dealing with the unemployment problem in my constituency.

A moment ago the Deputy said there was no unemployment.

The Deputy is dealing with a particular incident.

I am giving the reasons why there is certain unemployment.

The Deputy will not deal with unemployment.

He was looking for it a few minutes ago.

I will deal with that particular matter on another occasion but those are the facts. Last year, we had a political campaign against the growing of beet. There was a boast by a member in this House that he grew 20 acres every year but grew only one acre last year. That was a public boast. The only reason that could be given for his conduct was that his neighbour, who happened to live a little further away from the factory than he was, was in as good a position as he was in regard to the price of beet due to free rail freight.

As a direct result of that campaign there was a definite reduction in the acreage of beet. In 1951-52, there were 58,000 acres, but in 1952-53 there were only 52,200 acres. I hope those concerned are fairly well pleased with themselves now. And here I would like to pay a tribute to one of the princes of industry in this country. I allude to General Costello. The year before last, when Deputy Dillon was bringing into this country 74,000 of foreign sugar at £12 per ton more than Irish factories were producing sugar for, the representatives of the beet growers went to the general manager of the Irish Sugar Company and got from him, over and above the cost of production of beet, a present of 7/6 per ton. Last year, during the period when this campaign was being carried on—and the campaign was being carried on very largely against the action of the general manager of the Sugar Company—the general manager said that he would place the Clonakilty farmer in the same position as the man who was near the factory in Carlow or Mallow because he would give him free freight for his beet. That was in addition to the cost of production. The free freight cost the Sugar Company an average of 7/2 per ton. We got that, and the reply of certain sections, for political purposes, was a campaign against the growing of beet. The result of that campaign was a reduction in the Carlow factory of 3,000 acres of beet. This year that 7/2 has gone into the costings and we are getting nothing but the cost of production. I am proud to announce to this House now that all the sinners havecome back to the fold and that the one-acre man last year has gone back to his 20 acres this year.

Will the Deputy be good enough to tell us who that one man was?

That is a pity because we might see how he is helping production.

The acreage of beet which fell from 58,000 in 1951-52 to 52,200 in 1952-53, has now gone up again and the estimated figure given by the Sugar Company this morning is 65,000 acres which shows that the farmers are prepared to produce. When you have direct co-operation between the management and the farmer and no interference by any Government you will have increased production because the beet industry has been built up as no other crop produced by the agricultural community has been built up. It was built up by representatives of the Sugar Company and the representatives of the farmers coming together, finding out the cost of production of beet, and the general manager saying to the farmers: "There is your cost of production, plus a fair profit." That is the basis on which this industry has been built up and it has survived every vicious attack made on it since the day it started, when we had a campaign by individuals belonging to the same organisation who went around collecting the contract forms which were sent out and advising the farmers not to sign contracts, down to the campaign of last year. That has been the surprising result. This nation owes a debt of gratitude to General Costello which cannot be expressed in money.

Then there is another industry in my constituency, Irish Steel Holdings. Let us see what the history of that industry is. I had to come up on one occasion to the present Minister for Finance to beg of him to give us £150,000 or £200,000 to revive that industry and he gave it to us. After two years that industry went "wallop" again and I had to come up and beg the Minister for Industry and Commerce to give us a further sum to keepthat industry going. He gave us £160,000 for that industry which had gone "wallop" twice. The Minister said: "I will give you £160,000. I am sending down a Cobhman to take charge and if you do not make a success of it you can go somewhere else." That Cobhman came down and, where an Englishman and a German failed, the Cobhman made a success of it. I allude to the present general manager of Irish Steel Holdings. I suggest to the Minister that the sooner the shackles of the Civil Service are taken off that industry and the manager is given a free hand to extend that industry, the sooner we will have 800 or 900 men employed there instead of the 400 at present.

Will you guarantee us against strikes?

There is no trouble about strikes or anything else.

There was one.

There was not. There is no trouble of that description at all. I suggest to Deputy Dockrell that the malicious and misguided holding up of the proposals in regard to the extension of that factory was nothing short of criminal. If anybody doubts what I am saying, he can go to the Library and see the replies to 18 questions that I asked during the three and a half years of the inter-Party Government. Those people who talk about unemployment have the dickens of a neck to talk about it when they were responsible. The mere fact of their coming into office after the Minister for Industry and Commerce, Deputy Lemass, guaranteed that money held up the money for three and a half years and created unemployment. In the finish they turned it over to a bunch of gentlemen, of whom I hope that both the Minister for Industry and Commerce and the Minister for Finance will be able to give some account in this House. I refer to the activities of the gentlemen who are known as the Industrial Development Authority and whose only activity as far as I can see is the holding up of industry here. I hope we have some account of it whenthe Minister asks us to find the money with which he can pay them off. I think that is something he could exclude and nobody would feel the loss of it.

I do not wish to repeat here what other Deputies have said. We had the unemployment figures given by Deputy Briscoe here last night. I have no intention of repeating them. They stand there. They cannot be contradicted any more than those little points that I have made about the financial position have to remain uncontradicted here because they are true. I have no intention of going into that side of the picture. I am interested as a farmer in milk. I would like to say that I have listened to Deputy Dillon here repeatedly on milk. I have heard Deputy Dillon's statements on milk. Deputy Dillon seems to have a kind of idea that the people here must produce butter at a less price or produce it so that it can be exported and purchased abroad at a figure that will leave our farmers a profit. For that purpose Deputy Dillon started his campaign very early.

I gave every credit to the helpers who came to help us to get a decent price for milk a month ago. I wonder what they think of this statement made on November 1st, 1948, by Deputy Dillon: "I have not the slightest intention of asking the Government to increase the price of milk." In March, 1950, he said: "If I could get the creamery industry to-day to see their true interest as I see it I could secure for our dairy farmers an assurance that for the next five years, from the 1st April next, All Fools' Day, the price of milk in this country delivered to the creamery will never fall below 1/- a gallon."

Now the price that time was 1/2 in the summer and 1/4 in the winter but Deputy Dillon's view of the position was that the old farmer in 1950 should produce milk for a bob a gallon and he would give him a five year guarantee that he would get the bob. Later on of course he had to yield to the supreme pressure that was brought to bear on him and he gave another penny. When this Government came into office and gave an increase of a penny, in case anybody might thinkthat those people over there are in favour of giving anything, they started off immediately and Deputy Dillon alluded to the increase of one penny as the sorry madness of the Government in daring to give the farmer another penny a gallon for his milk.

If we can produce sufficient butter here to feed our people, I suggest there are other outlets for our milk and outlets that are fairly large. The export of chocolate crumb from this country, which is manufactured from milk, for the last 12 months amounted to over £5,000,000. That was an increase of £1,000,000 over last year's figures, 1951. That is a pretty hefty outlet for milk and one that could be extended. Between cheese and dried milk there was a further outlet, and I understand that there is a splendid market to-day across the water for cream and that it will give the farmer somewhere around 3/- a gallon for his milk. If there is that market I can see no justification for asking the farmer to sell to the Irish people for 1/4 a gallon or 1/5 milk for which he can get a couple of bob a gallon somewhere else.

Would that not be much more relevant on the Estimate for the Department of Agriculture?

I am talking about more production.

The Deputy cannot get away with every argument on the plea of more production.

I do not wish to, but I wish to make this suggestion if I may —that the sooner the Department of Agriculture takes its dead hand off the farmers as regards milk production the better.

The Deputy might leave the rest now for the Estimate on the Department of Agriculture.

The point I am putting is that the production of our milch cows through the activities of the Department of Agriculture has fallen by at least 300 gallons per cow in the last 20 years, and if the people on the Opposition Benches have any doubtabout that I can give them as the reason for that the statement made by the first Minister for Agriculture here, the late Deputy Patrick Hogan.

Now the Deputy ought to leave all that for the Department of Agriculture Estimate. It is the general financial policy of the Government that is under discussion.

And I am alluding to the policy of the Government in this——

The Deputy is not.

——and I am giving as proof of the foolishness of that policy as regards milk production here the statement made by the late Deputy Patrick Hogan after he left office when he told the House that if the Livestock Breeding Act was implemented as he had implemented it during the six years he was in office you might get fine-looking cattle but it would be practically impossible to get a decent milch cow.

I have given the Deputy a good deal of latitude.

The next point is the position and the burden as regards the Civil Service. I have here rather alarming figures that were given to me here in this House on the 17th April, 1952. They show that there was an increase from 1939 to 1947 of some 4,300 civil servants. Anybody can understand that during a rationing and a coupon period a large number of officials would have to be brought in but one would expect that after 1947 there would be a gradual reduction. That, however, was not the case. During the three and a half years the inter-Party Government were in office they increased that number and at present there are 9,800 more civil servants than there were in 1939.

I am not asking that anybody should be dismissed. I am putting what I consider a reasonable suggestion to the Minister for Finance and that is, that he should stop recruiting for the Civil Service. I do not think it is any benefit to the people of this country and particularly to the young people who are looking for these Civil Service positionsto-day, to see young boys and girls brought up to Dublin on starvation wages and endeavouring to eke out a living in the city under these conditions. Therefore, I suggest to the Minister that he should stop recruiting.

Another suggestion I have to make to the Minister is in regard to the upper age groups. According to the figures given yesterday there are 77 civil servants with over £2,000 a year. I understand that a large number of those 77 are around the 77 mark as regards age as well. It is time that they were removed.

I am getting on to that myself.

I am not suggesting that the Minister should be removed. I am not too bad. I expect to enjoy 50 years more. There is a large number of civil servants who are past the age limit. Instead of moving them and, as has unfortunately become the custom in this country, handing them over extra jobs as secretaries of one organisation or directors of another, I suggest that they should be quietly moved out. By moving out at the top and taking in no more at the bottom, it will not be too long till the Minister can get down to a reasonable figure and thus spare the taxpayers the burden they are at present carrying.

The extra 9,800 civil servants over the number in 1939 are costing this country at least £3,800,000 a year. That is more than the entire revenue from the tax put upon beer and whiskey. If the Minister wants ways of curtailing expenditure I am prepared to give them to him. I stand over anything I say, and I give one guarantee to the Minister that when the election comes in two years' time, whoever comes back, I will. There is no doubt that if I do back to the former position for at least ten to 15 years. However, there is a not come myself I will send my ghost.

If we had a complete change of policy on the part of the Department of Agriculture in the morning we could not undo the harm that has been done as regards the milk yield of our cows in this country. You would not getway of short-circuiting that. If the purchase of Tulyar was a good purchase as far as horsebreeding here is concerned, I suggest to the Minister that the purchase of a few hundred Dutch bulls and a couple of thousand Dutch cows would change the situation as far as our milk yields are concerned in regard to the ten or 15 years' delay that this country will have to endure, and the dairy farmers will have to pay for the mistakes and the wrong policy of the Department of Agriculture.

I warned the Deputy before that he cannot go into that.

I do not intend to make any further reference to it.

The Deputy has gone very far despite the suggestions of the Chair.

I do not wish to delay the House. I have given the figures and the facts as I have seen them. Industry in my constituency is improving steadily. If a courageous policy is taken by this Government in regard to the steel industry, there is room there for extensive expenditure that will bring dividends in the shape of employment and in the shape of the curtailment of imports. Last year we imported, between sheeting and cans, nearly £3,000,000 worth of material. I would remind the Minister for Finance that there is lying in Haulbowline portion of a tin sheet mill, the property of the State. That tin sheet mill could be built up and a few hundred men given employment. I would give some credit to Deputies opposite if some of that £95,000,000 they squandered had been spent in that manner. I know money is scarce, but this is a good way of keeping in our own country young men who would have decent employment and of curtailing imports.

Another portion of my constituency which has suffered very severely because of unemployment from 1922, you might say, up to the present, is now in a fair way of getting industries that will give employment. I am alluding to the town of Fermoy. One industry is already in progress there.

I admit it is the smallest of the three, but there are two more on the road. I am hoping that within the next three or four months the unemployment problem in Fermoy will be settled once and for all. I have no reason, so far as my constituency is concerned, to be in any way pessimistic about the situation. I take a certain amount of pride in preventing every young man or girl whom I can prevent leaving this country to seek employment abroad. I think it is the duty of the Government by every means in their power to assist these industries in getting under way and giving employment. After all, they are an insurance policy in so far as this State is concerned.

I do not wish to delay the House further. I have given the facts here so far as I can see them. I think that the Minister has a tough job, a hard job. I should like to say just one parting word to my friends opposite before I leave. That is, that we would have as much right, in fact far more right, whilst they formed the Government, to attack Deputy Everett or his Party or other Deputies, particularly unfortunate farmers' representatives —God save us—who voted against an increase in the price of milk, for joining Fine Gael and forming a Government as they have to attack any Deputy who is at present a supporter of the Government in this House. I have great admiration for Deputy Dr. Noel Browne. I think the work of Deputy Dr. Noel Browne while he was Minister for Health in that Government——

That does not arise on the Vote on Account.

We have had a vicious and bitter attack on each of these men by Deputy Dillon. Deputy Dillon went so far as to say that what they had done was worse than what Castlereagh did.

The relative merits or demerits of Deputies do not arise on this Vote on Account.

I shall not go further on that except to make the statement that those men went for election as the opponents of the inter-PartyGovernment. Deputy Cowan, Deputy Dr. Browne, Deputy Dr. ffrench O'Carroll and Deputy McQuillan went for election as definite opponents of the inter-Party Government, and everything the inter-Party Government could do to put them out was done but they came in here as pledged opponents of the inter-Party Government and, therefore, I think they are doing their duty to the people who elected them in supporting the present Government.

The Minister, in his opening statement, referred to the present serious situation and employed the usual jargon that one associates with Finance Ministers. In fact, he used a number of phrases that have become common on the lips of many Ministers. We have become used in recent times to phrases such as "serious situation", "dangerous position", "crisis being reached", "country having reached the limits of its taxable capacity" and "public expenditure must be curbed".

The Minister went on to say that "it was inevitable that serious measures would have to be taken to bring State expenditure into line with the capacity and willingness of the public to bear the cost." When these statements are made, it is proper that we should examine how the actions correspond with the sentiments. The Book of Estimates presented this year has on the face of it a sum of £100,500,000 odd. That according to the Minister is over £5,000,000 more than the Government looked for last year. The Minister in the course of his speech referred to the fact that the substantial sum of over £9,000,000 in Supplementary Estimates had to be voted during the current financial year. That was £9,000,000 over and above the proposed expenditure enshrined in the Book of Estimates last year. In addition to that the Minister announced that the present Book of Estimates provided for an increase of over £5,000,000 on the figure provided for in last year's Estimates.

The phrases to which I have referred, and which have been used in almost every speech made in recent months by different Ministers of the present Government, have become meaningless,when we consider the actions that have followed these various speeches. Some weeks ago here the Taoiseach said that the country was staggering under the weight of taxation. The Minister for Justice last week spoke somewhere in Roscommon and said that the country had reached the limit and finally the Minister for Finance came in here on Wednesday night and said that State expenditure must be brought into line with the capacity and the willingness of the public to bear the cost. I do not know what that phrase means. The public are never willing to bear increased costs if they can avoid it. If a citizen is presented at some time in the future with a document demanding income-tax or otherwise, I wonder will it be a good defence for him to say: "I am unwilling to bear it" and to quote the statement of the Minister in introducing the Vote on Account this year.

The most significant portion of the Minister's speech was that in which he showed an anxiety for the House to share responsibility for this enormous burden. I say that this Government, and this Government alone, are responsible for these Estimates and no attempt to evade that responsibility can be permitted. If the limit in taxation has been reached, if the Government believed that the proposed rate of public expenditure was beyond the capacity as well as beyond the willingness of the public to meet it, then it was their duty to take effective steps to remedy that situation. The fact that the Dáil, or a majority of the members of the Dáil will subsequently approve of the proposals in the present Vote on Account, does not absolve the Government from responsibility for introducing this large Bill and from the responsibility of placing many of the burdens enshrined in it on the backs of the people of the country. The sentiments that have been expressed by many Ministers are, of course, admirable: they sound attractive. In many cases they secure headlines in the newspapers. It is probably balm to the conscience of Ministers to express concern at the effect of the heavy burden of taxation and at the effect of the heavy liabilities which have beenimposed on all sections of the community. We have to ask ourselves what action, what effective action, what remedial measures the Government have taken to limit the burdens being placed on all sections of the community. If we examine the record of this Government, if we look at the impositions that have been made, if we consider the increase in the cost of living that the people have been obliged to bear, if we consider the added burdens that each section of the community has had to carry as a result of the impositions in the Budget last year and as a result of the numerous increases in a variety of ways that have since occured, then we can test the sincerity of the speeches that have been made by members of the Government and compare the results with the professed sentiments and the aims which the Ministers have indicated they are anxious to attain.

The Minister told us, when introducing the Budget last year, that its purpose was to restore order to the public finances and to the economy generally. What has been the result of that restoration of order, from the bookkeeping point of view if the Minister wants to accept that description? Some food subsidies were totally abolished and others were greatly reduced with the result that there has been a substantial increase in the cost of living. In some cases adjustments were made in social welfare benefits to meet these increases. Does anybody suggest that the improvements that were made compensated for the rise that occurred in the cost of living? Can anybody contend that an increase of 1/6 per week to the old age pensioner is adequate compensation for a rise of 10d. in the price of butter, for a rise of over 100 per cent. in the price of tea, for a rise of almost 50 per cent. in the price of bread and for other increases which have taken place since these benefits were granted as, for instance, an additional increase of 4d. per lb. in the price of butter? I do not believe that statistics will prove or that any Deputy, any economist, any person who evaluates the increases that have been granted can conscientiously say that these increases that were grantedcompensate for the rise in the cost of essential foodstuffs. Apart altogether from that aspect of the problem, the decision to reduce substantially the food subsidies was taken at a time when, according to the Minister for Industry and Commerce, import price trends showed a downward tendency, when it was reasonable to assume that the increases that had occurred in the prices of a large number of our imports had reached their peak and that if a reduction was not in sight at least stability was likely. When we compare the remarks of the Minister for Industry and Commerce on the possibility of stability being reached and see what has occurred in the meantime we can decide whether the decision to withdraw or reduce the food subsidies was, in these particular circumstances, beneficial to the community and whether it has resulted in an improvement in the standard of living of our people.

The cost-of-living index shows that between August, 1951—that was the first index published after the change of Government—and last November, there was a rise of 12 or 13 per cent. in the cost of living. The February figures are not yet available, but I think it is reasonable to assume that they will show a further increase. I think they will show that the rise that has occurred has continued and that the wage adjustments that have taken place no sooner compensate for the rise that has occurred when a further rise follows.

As I stated here last week, the decision last year to reduce the food subsidies unleashed a whole trend of events that have still further complicated and aggravated our economy. Wage adjustments have been followed by price adjustments and price adjustments have again been followed by wage adjustments in other spheres. It is important to refer to this matter, as it affects certain sections of the community.

Last week, the Minister for Industry and Commerce said that most trades have already carried through their adjustments, and that it is reasonable to assume that, by the spring or summer of this year, the general process of adjustment will have been completed.The reference is column 2481 of the Official Report, Volume 3, No. 16. With the Minister for Industry and Commerce, improved conditions are always around the corner. I notice that in a recent speech it is over a hump—but whether it is over a hump or round the corner, it is always in the future. That is the position with regard to a number of trades.

What is the position in regard to public servants? The Civil Service arbitration award was published on 18th February last. It provided for an increase in respect of various categories of civil servants—an increase varying in respect of the more lowly paid civil servants and diminishing as the scale of salary increased. When the Minister announced that he was prepared to accept the motion to appoint a committee on public expenditure, he went on to say—and I am paraphrasing his words—that lest the acceptance of the motion might in any way imply a criticism of the manner in which public servants carry out their duty, such was not intended. He expressed the view that the Civil Service is functioning efficiently. Is it not reasonable to expect that those persons in the community who function efficiently should be compensated for the rise that has occurred in the cost of living? Why is there one approach so far as public servants are concerned and a different approach so far as the community as a whole are concerned?

The civil servants, the Gardaí, the Army and all public officials have been refused the increased rates of wages or emoluments granted to other classes in the community who, according to the Minister for Industry and Commerce, have already carried through their wage adjustments. "It is reasonable to assume," he said, "that by the spring or summer of this year the general process of adjustment will have been completed." But, in respect of civil servants, the Gardaí, the Army, postmen, messengers and particularly in the case of lowly-paid State servants, there has been no adjustment to meet the substantial increase in the cost of living in the current year, while the prospects in regard to the coming Budget are not hopeful.

I think it is significant that, inrespect of a great number of these categories of public servants, Deputy Corry—he can hardly be described as a friend of the civil servants or as an advocate of their interests—a few moments ago referred to the fact that they were on a starvation wage. I took a note of his words.

This decision not to implement the award of the Civil Service Arbitration Tribunal is a serious reflection on the Government. Deputies who are familiar with the terminology enforced when a person places a bet with a bookmaker and succeeds in winning, knows that if the bookmaker refuses to pay his action is described as "welshing". The Racing Board have authority to withdraw the licences of bookmakers who welsh on the bets they are liable to meet. I hope the public will have the opportunity of withdrawing the Government's licence if they continue to welsh in regard to their commitments to the public servants of the country.

The effects of last year's Budget on the cost of living for all sections of the community must have far-reaching repercussions on our export trade. The possibility of an expansion in our export trade, even in the case of agriculture, was minimised by the Minister for Finance in his Budget statement last year. It is significant that this year there has been a spectacular rise in our exports. The level of our exports last year, at £100,000,000, was a continuation of the trend initiated in 1948 by the inter-Party Government. But will that trend continue? Can we say that the present level of prices, for certain aspects of our agricultural economy, will justify the same level of production, and provide a remunerative return for that section of the community on which the nation as a whole depends for substantial exports?

The prevailing prices for poultry, eggs, butter and bacon make it fairly certain that the prospects of an exportable surplus are not hopeful. We will not know, until we get the figures, the prices to be paid to our poultry and egg producers. It is worthy ofcomment that the Minister for Agriculture said within the last few days that he did not know what the prices would be, and that when he did he would announce them. If the Government expect a level of production sufficient to maintain our present export level then it is reasonable to say that the farming community should be put in the position of knowing what prices will be paid to them. It is common knowledge, in fact, it was stated recently by, I think, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Government, that, in the main, our substantial agricultural exports depended on cattle. That, of course, is merely a continuation of the pattern familiar to anyone interested in the national economy over a number of years. It is true that subsidiary exports of agricultural produce have from time to time, and for particular periods, manifested themselves, but in the immediate future, unless we have substantial increases in the exports of poultry, eggs, butter and bacon, the prospects of endurable agricultural exports in those spheres are not hopeful.

The present situation in which we are obliged to bear additional taxation has reached an alarming stage. It is appropriate, I think, that I should compare for a moment the statements which two Ministers of this Government have made within a week. The Minister for Industry and Commerce, speaking in the House last week—the reference is Volume 106, column 2483— said:—

"All economic progress requires a steady inflationary trend."

He said earlier, at column 2481:—

"From many points of view the social consequences of a downward movement in prices are more severe than the consequences of an upward trend."

The Minister for Finance spoke yesterday at a luncheon given by the Dublin Society of Chartered Accountants in the Red Bank Restaurant. I am quoting from last night's Evening Herald.In the course of his speech he said:—

"The only way to solve the difficulties, not only of industry and ofbusiness, big and small, but of the worker and the housekeeper alike, is to curb inflation and to reduce taxation."

Later, he said, when referring to different matters affecting the economy of the country:—

"In my view the difficulties that beset our people derive from these two sources, inflation and heavy taxation: the former being to a large extent the offspring of the latter."

The Minister for Industry and Commerce says that "all economic progress requires a steady inflationary trend". Now, which of these two statements represents the viewpoint of the Government?

There is no conflict between the two.

Which represents Government policy?

There is no conflict between the two.

Blah! Blah! If you want to go and talk to General Dennis you can do it, but I am going to make my speech without being interrupted. The position is that either view represents Government policy, that either view represents the economic policy of this Government, but if the two views are in conflict then one must supersede the other——

They are not in conflict.

——and a very serious position must arise. I want to find out which view represents the economic policy of the Government. There is a serious conflict of opinion, a serious conflict in theory and a serious conflict in practice between the results which the Minister for Industry and Commerce said are the consequences of "a downward movement in prices," and his statement that "all economic progress requires a steady inflationary trend." On the other hand, the Minister for Finance says that the only way to solve the difficulty is to curb inflation and reduce taxation.

The Book of Estimates before us imposes an additional sum of over £5,000,000 on the people. It is notpossible to segregate the items for capital services, but, on the assumption that £9,000,000, approximately, was the sum devoted to capital expenditure last year on services that are normally so described, and that the description therein included is followed in the Book of Estimates before us, then as far as it is possible to make a comparison, it is fair to say that the sum in this year's Estimate appears to be something approximately over £9,000,000 with the addition of a sum of £4,000,000 in respect of the provision in the Estimate for the Department of Health for the Hospitals Commission.

The Minister in reply to a query said, and I think the published reports say, that the annual deficits of the voluntary hospitals vary between £500,000 and £700,000 a year. So that it is reasonable to assume that the sum of £4,000,000 may be described as capital and that, therefore, in this Book of Estimates, there is a sum of £9,000,000 in respect of normal capital items and an additional sum of £4,000,000 in respect of subventions to the Hospitals' Trust Fund for the building programme.

One of the difficulties, as far as this matter is concerned, is to ascertain precisely on what basis this Estimate was compiled, because the Vote for the Department of Agriculture shows that in respect of one item, sub-head P —Allowances for Dairy Produce—a sum of £162,000 was intended to pay for the loss on the sale of imported butter and to make provision for the cold storage of butter for winter consumption. The Minister adverted to that in his introductory statement and the Minister for Agriculture, when pressed on the matter the other day, said that circumstances had changed.

It has been indicated, in the course of a public statement, as well as in the course of remarks made here by the Minister for Industry and Commerce, that a sum of £200,000 profit would be realised on the sale of New Zealand butter. If, therefore, it was proposed to make a provision in the Book of Estimates, in Vote 27, for a sum of £162,000 for the loss on the sale of imported butter and to provide a sufficient sum for cold storage, will somemember of the Government explain the difference between the two sums and what will become of the £38,000 involved or how is the butter price wangle operated?

As far as the public can understand the position, they are paying for it. They are paying in the substantial increase that has been imposed on them by the recent variation in prices, which includes provision for the importation of New Zealand butter which, according to a speech made by the Minister for Industry and Commerce in the university recently, could be sold to the consumers at a retail price of 3/9 a lb. He did not follow up the consequences of allowing that situation to develop, if the same practice were followed in other spheres.

I wish to refer to a reduction in two items in the Vote for the Department of Industry and Commerce. The Vote shows that under sub-head L (1) it is proposed to reduce payments to Mianraí Teoranta by £55,000. I have no doubt that most of that money voted here in respect of Mianraí Teoranta is for mineral development in the Avoca area. Probably, appropriate remedial measures will be taken taken here to increase this sum if the writ for the Wicklow by-election is moved.

Similarly, there is a reduction in respect of Bord na Móna for local schemes, where the Vote has been cut from £364,000 to £125,000. The Minister referred to that and said that it was because it was difficult to find a market for turf produced by these hand-won schemes. I can well imagine the clamour that would be made here if the previous Government had contemplated any similar operation. It would be represented that we were sabotaging the turf scheme. But, when the present Government cut in half the sum of money under sub-head M (2) for Grants-in-Aid in respect of local production schemes, it is, the Minister says, because it was difficult to find a market for the turf so produced.

I would like to hear further particulars of the circumstances in which that decision was taken and thereasons which prompt the Government to effect a reduction of 50 per cent. In the money which it is proposed to spend in respect of these items.

The present situation that has occurred as a result of the decisions in last year's Budget has already been clearly put before the House. We have a situation in which there are 88,000 or 89,000 persons unemployed. Some people have been at pains to show that there are more people in employment. Anyone who examines unemployment insurance statistics or national health insurance returns will know that every year since 1922 there has been an increase in the members employed but that does not prevent a variation in the numbers unemployed.

The figures in respect of contributions, either for employment insurance or national health benefit, without exception, will show each year an increase in the numbers of persons employed. If reductions have occurred in certain spheres or in certain types of employment, the reductions have been offset by increases elsewhere. Allowing for that increase, taking the statistics which were circulated recently, the figures show that there are at the present time approximately 20,000 more persons unemployed than there were this time two years ago. The figures for different periods of the year may not give a valid comparison. It is common knowledge that in June, 1951, the total number unemployed in this country was 35,000—an all-time low level. To compare that with the figures for March or February either of that year or this year would not be a valid comparison. The figures for this time this year and this time two years ago show a substantial increase. Even as against this time last year, the figures which were circulated this morning, the most recent figures, show that there is a substantial increase at present in the numbers unemployed.

It is common knowledge that emigration is continuing. It is not possible, apparently, at the moment, to get accurate statistics for the numbers emigrating. Since the British Government relaxed the requirement of having travel visas or identity cards for persons travelling to and from thatcountry, no accurate figures are available and the Government shows no anxiety to ascertain or to provide machinery for ascertaining the present trend of emigration. On the assumption that emigration is continuing at more or less the same rate and allowing for the fact that there are more men in the Defence Forces at present —both of which factors influence the number of persons available to sign at the employment exchanges—the high level of unemployment is obvious. The present figures, which show in recent weeks the highest level for any period since this time ten years ago, when the war was at its height, surely give this country and the House reason for serious misgiving about the effects of the Government's economic policy.

We have had a trade slump in some respects, maybe not a complete slump but what is euphemistically described as a recession. In building there has been less activity. The figures quoted by Deputy Corish this morning, where the Central Statistics Office published an analysis of the various categories of persons on the unemployment register, show that in respect of building and construction between the end of last year, December, and the first two months of this year, January and February, over 5,000 more persons were signing in respect of building and construction work, that is, persons who had been employed on building and construction work. At a time when there is still a big demand for houses, a big demand for additional hospitals and for a variety of construction works of different types, it is significant that there has been that increase in the numbers unemployed, even allowing for the fact that this period may be normally regarded as the slack period of the year. It is well known to everyone that the late winter, and so far this spring, has been unusually favourable from the weather point of view for building activities, and it would be reasonable to assume that that favourable situation would be availed of to get on with work. Instead of that, we find that in that category alone the statistics show a substantial increase in the numbers unemployed.

I saw recent references to the effect on building of professional fees. I read a report this week where the Minister for Local Government referred again to this problem. Surely it is possible to get an accurate presentation of the facts in respect of building costs? If professional fees are in any way limiting the expansion of building activities, it ought to be possible to show that; but to isolate one particular item in the cost of building, professional fees, and to ignore the rise in the cost of materials, the rise in the cost of wages and the rise of over 2 per cent, in interest rates on small dwellings acquisition loans, to leave these three items—interest charges, wages and prices and materials —entirely on one side and to imply that professional fees alone are responsible for high building charges and for the lack of the drive in the building programme is to ignore reality.

I would like to get a fair assessment of the relative effects of the different items of costs in regard to building, so that we can ascertain what are the limiting factors, what are the restrictive influences, what are the causes of the lack of progress, that has resulted in the drop in the numbers of persons employed on local authority housing schemes. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach gave particulars recently, in reply to a parliamentary question, which showed that there had been a drop of over 3,000 persons employed, both skilled and unskilled, on local authority housing schemes. Anyone familiar with the effects of the increase in the interest rates on small dwellings acquisition loans realises the problem that has been presented and the difficulties that confront a great number of persons, thrifty persons, persons anxious to help themselves, who have been forced to put in abeyance their decision to proceed with proposals to build houses for themselves or to avail of the facilities of persons who are building houses for persons anxious to assist in the housing drive.

The present position resulting from the decisions in last year's Budget has seriously worsened the economic condition of very many sections of the community.I do not wish to exaggerate and suggest that all sections of the community are worse off, but by and large the effects of the Budget, the effects of the economic policy of the present Government and the effects of the financial policy are reflected in the rising numbers of unemployed, in the serious business recession, in the slump in trade over a wide variety and category of industries and of businesses and in the fact that at the present time the indications are that in regard to a number of agricultural commodities present costs of production will prevent the prospect of any notable contribution to our export trade.

It is quite true that we are achieving an equilibrium, or tending towards the achievement of an equilibrium, in our balance of payments. That no doubt will satisfy the desires and the aims of the report of the Central Bank. That report, when it set out that position, also indicated that one of the aims of a reduction in the food subsidies would be to reduce consumption. I suppose it is only right and proper that the economists and the directors of the Central Bank should themselves report on the economic situation as they see it, but it is our responsibility to look after the welfare and the interests of the people. We are concerned with any decision of that sort, which was implemented, as it was implemented, no matter how the Minister may attempt to gloss over it, because the most insistent proviso or the most insistent statement in the report of the Central Bank was a reduction in consumption by reducing the food subsidies and a decision to achieve a balance in our payments position.

We always anticipated that the substantial increase in imports that occurred at the end of 1950 and that was followed in the first half of 1951 was a temporary phenomenon, that that could not continue, that it was due to factors outside our control, that the Korean War and the stockpiling indulged in by many countries inevitably meant definite efforts being made here to import goods; and that the position would in time rectify itself.If the situation showed any serious tendency to get out of hand remedial measures could be applied. What has now been achieved is that, in a very short time, almost in the space of less than 12 months, the balance of payments position shows an indication that a balance will be achieved, but, as Deputy Costello said yesterday, at what price? It has been achieved at the price of larger numbers of unemployed, of higher costs of living for all sections, of higher costs of production for industry and agriculture, of a business slump, of trade recession, of serious economic and financial considerations for large sections of the community, of misery caused and economic suffering wrought, of severe burdens imposed and increased liabilities for many sections.

All these have been imposed as a direct consequence of a misreading of the economic situation and a misinterpretation of the indications which were obvious to anyone who had an appreciation of what was required and of the steps appropriate to remedy, if necessary, any temporary problem, but which would have due regard to the needs of the people and the requirements of all sections as well as the need for maintaining so far as possible stability in price levels and a situation in which it would be possible to maintain and continue the increase in our exports and in agricultural and industrial production. I believe that the present Government has, by its own actions, caused considerable economic dislocation and suffering.

We have never contended that all these problems were of the Government's creation, or that all these difficulties could be avoided by Government action alone. Some of these problems are economic problems common to Europe and the world as a whole, but many of the difficulties, many of the serious developments that have occurred, have been the direct result of Government action. This Government has no confidence in itself and the country has no confidence in it. The indications given in the by-election last November were the most emphatic indications possible and the fact that the Government now proposesto postpone the local elections is an indication that they are not anxious to get an expression of opinion from the electorate. As other Deputies said, the sooner they go, the better, and the sooner there is a change of Government, the better will be the prospects not only for the economics of this country but from the point of view of social improvement as well.

I believe that this Vote on Account and the Book of Estimates are in no way indicative of the economic policy of the Government except that it is allowing things to drift. We know that there was a conflict of opinion between different Ministers. These conflicts were solved, temporarily, anyway, by the return of the Taoiseach and it is hoped to retain him as long as possible as a lifebelt for the Government as a whole. We believe that the Government should accept the indication given in the by-election last November that the country wants an opportunity of expressing its views on the economic and social policies adopted and wants an opportunity of making a change, so that the proper remedies may be applied in the interests of all sections.

We could scarcely have a better instance of the nonsense and humbug running through the speeches we heard from the Opposition Benches yesterday and to-day than the remarks of Deputy Cosgrave. His speech generally is in line with those we heard yesterday—platitudes, vague generalisations, references to last year's Budget, with no approach whatever to the problems facing the country and no idea of a constructive nature in regard to them. One wonders if there is any advantage whatever in Parliamentary Government, if, on an important occasion of this kind, the Opposition cannot bring more ideas, some better approach to the problems of the country. One would imagine that belabouring the Government and talking about last year's Budget, which at least is history by one year, is going to get us somewhere.

Let us look at last year's Budget for a moment. The Government was faced with the problem, unless it made thedecisions which were embodied in the Budget, of having to find £15,000,000 for food subsidies, over £3,000,000 to carry out the award of the Civil Service Arbitration Board and some further millions for C.I.E. and other purposes. The complaint has been that the Government introduced a savage Budget. It increased taxation on beer, spirits and tobacco. That apparently was unnecessary; but, if the Government had had to carry on the food subsidies, taxation would have had to be increased by at least £4,000,000 more. The point was that the Government had to increase taxation by at least £4,000,000 more than it did or cut down expenditure. Food subsidies were the largest item in the Budget of a temporary character, the end of which everybody must have contemplated. It was only a question of what time they should end. It was not that the Government arbitrarily increased taxation—they had to increase taxation to provide for the commitments amounting to many millions that were left behind and for which no provision was made by our predecessors. They went to the country without even discussing the Budget of 1951.

We came into office and we had to take up that situation. One cannot suddenly reverse engines and change the whole budgetary mechanism. We had to accept the position that here was a Budget which had been introduced and commitments which had been entered into. Was the Government to renounce these commitments?

They had either to renounce the commitments or, having accepted them, they had to find the means to provide for them and not finding it possible, knowing that extra taxation to the additional amount necessary to provide for all these commitments was not feasible or practicable, the Government had, as well as increasing taxation, to cut down expenditure. One would imagine from the ranting that is going on here that food subsidies were completely abolished. In fact, well over £10,000,000 was left in the Estimate for food subsidies. They were only cut down by over £4,000,000, but the Government lost more by the provision of the compensatory benefitsto the sections of the community most in need, to the extent even of 1/6 per week per person. These benefits cost the Exchequer more than it gained by the reduction in the food subsidies, but I suggest that the Opposition might show that they had their feet on solid earth by their approach to this problem. From that angle it is a problem which must occupy the time of the Government over a considerable period of the year, but when these problems come before this House we are treated to a string of platitudes, misrepresentations and history of what took place last year.

If the food subsidies had to be provided at a cost of £15,000,000, then the other commitments that our predecessors entered into could not have been met except by still further increases in taxation. Everybody admits that there is a point beyond which you cannot go and the figures this year clearly indicate that there is a law of diminishing returns. You can increase the rates of taxation but the income will not continue to expand beyond a certain point. You are faced with a diminishing return. It was because there was no other way to meet these commitments but by increasing taxation that the Government had to do it.

When I went on to the point about the Budget, I was going to give the example of absolute nonsense that is being talked, the contradictory statements that people like Deputy Cosgrave can utter in one particular address to this House. He started off by suggesting that the improvement in the trade position had its origin in some way in something the inter-Party Government did. It had nothing whatever to do with it. It is due to a variety of factors, including the fact that the terms of trade have moved in our favour, that, generally speaking, we are a food-producing country, and conditions of trade favour the food producers at the present time.

Moreover, due to the development of the dressed-meat industry, there has been a tremendous expansion in one particular branch of our agricultural exports. Last year, of the £32,400,000 drop in the value of imports, £1,000,000can be attributed to a decrease in prices and £31,400,000 to a decrease in volume. In the case of exports, plus re-exports, of the increase of £20,000,000, £2,500,000 can be attributed to an increase in prices and £17,500,000 to an increase in volume. The percentage decrease in 1951 in the value of imports was 15.8 per cent, and the percentage increase in the value of exports was 24.5 per cent.

Furthermore, in spite of a decline of £2,000,000 in value, producer capital goods ready for use formed a larger percentage of total imports in 1952 than in 1951, increasing from 9.3 per cent. to 9.9 per cent. Consumer goods decreased from 27.1 per cent. to 23.1 per cent. of total imports and in absolute value by £15,700,000. There was a reduction of £15,700,000 in the imports of consumer goods.

If Deputies Cosgrave, Dillon or anybody else want to claim some credit in some way that nobody understands for the improvement in our trade position, then they cannot come along and subscribe to Deputy Costello's dictum that by narrowing the gap in our adverse trade balance we have done some harm to the country. That is implicit in what Deputy Costello said. Somebody suffered. Something went wrong because during the past year, under this Government's administration, there was this tremendous improvement in our external trade position.

The Opposition cannot have it both ways. They are either glad the gap is closing and that we are in a position to pay for our requirements to a greater extent than we have been, trying to balance our accounts and achieving substantial success in doing so, or like Deputy Costello they live in an extraordinary pseudo-economic world—a world of fantasy—where they can believe some harm has been done to the country and the people of the country by that position. "It is mere book-keeping to balance your Budget." I quoted before in this House the opinions of foreign experts about our general economic position and our financial situation. I asked those people who are criticising the Government whether they did not agree with the opinions of those foreign experts whomust have looked upon our problems in an objective manner quite free from political bias.

I have here a report on the industrial potentials of Ireland. It is an appraisement. It is a very important document that has not got the consideration it ought to have got in this House when the problems of our economic future, the building up of our productive capacity, the increasing of our productive effort, the employment of better methods, the reduction of our costs, are discussed as they should be on an occasion such as this.

The Minister for Finance quoted a short time ago in the public Press the statements of Deputy Costello about capital investment when he was addressing the bankers' dinner in 1949. They seem to show that he had deviated very considerably indeed from the rather classical approach that he showed on that occasion. We have not heard anything recently from him about capital investment. According to page 83, paragraph (g), of this report of the American experts:—

"It is of the utmost importance to Ireland's economic progress that more investment funds be channelled into productive investment in industry and agriculture alike. Ireland's capital investment commitments are too low absolutely, and far too small a percentage of the investment that is made goes into the modern equipment upon which increased productive efficiency depends. In 1949 investment in construction accounted for 52 per cent. of total net investment, and four-fifths of this was for construction of the social welfare type—schools, hospitals, etc. No one would question the essential desirability of social welfare programmes, but they are of little worth unless the economy is sufficiently productive to support them adequately. Either domestic or foreign capital must be attracted to machinery and equipment investment upon a far greater scale than at present. The best way to accomplish this is to see that the necessary incentives are offered, and the best incentives are opportunities for genuinely profitableoperation. If Ireland had a clear policy for providing such opportunities, she should be able to make herself, as has Switzerland, a haven for capital that is seeking freedom from the multiple restrictions prevalent in many neighbouring countries."

Will you send that to the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs?

They go on to say in the next paragraph—perhaps Deputy MacEoin and his colleagues will chew over this paragraph:—

"An important consideration in creating a climate favourable to capital investment is the status of the Government financial position. Ireland's Budget has been out of balance for some time in its overall accounts, and lately on current accounts as well. The direct remedies lie in a policy of curtailing non-productive expenditures and stepping up taxation in a pattern that does not undermine incentives. It would appear that there is room for increasing the tax payments on the agricultural side of the economy. Government capital expenditures should be directed towards self-liquidating projects, with a curtailment of ‘make-work' expenditures as well as social welfare measures. Controls should be exercised to discourage consumption imports in favour of capital goods imports of a type that cannot be produced competitively in Ireland."

The House knows that millions of dollars' worth of food and feeding stuffs are imported from the United States of America. The Government have got very little assistance from the Opposition in their endeavours to remedy that position and to try to make ourselves as self-sufficient as possible in this fertile agricultural country so far as feeding stuffs for man and beast are concerned. The Opposition are more concerned with trying to ride away on the misrepresentation that the Government have compulsory tillage or something of that kind in mind rather than asking the farmersof this country to face up to their responsibilities and produce from their own soil, what God has enabled them to do, sufficient for our requirements without being dependent upon the foreigner, who will certainly fix the highest price that he thinks he can extract from us.

According to our agricultural experts, we can produce sufficient cereals and root crops to make the country self-sufficient or nearly so, not alone for human, but animal consumption. If we were to increase our barley production on a substantial scale it would undoubtedly mean increased productivity in the pig industry and greatly increased production so far as poultry are concerned. If we were to increase our cereals and root crops substantially, as can be done, it would mean that we could provide better winter feeding for our dairying cattle, and that would mean increased milk supplies, rendering it unnecessary to have recourse to increasing the prices of butter and milk, as has been done.

In that connection, the Government are aware and have been deeply affected by the fact that butter output has declined substantially in this country, but consumption on the other hand has increased. As I pointed out recently, except for New Zealand, we have the highest average consumption of butter per head in the world. Milk, of course, is being diverted to industrial uses, but it certainly gives room for fruitful thought as to whether we are proceeding on the right lines or whether, in fact, there is sufficient advertence to modern dairy practice, the dairying practice that in other countries has given such great results, that we can actually import from New Zealand to this country butter at a lower price than it can be produced at home, when, I am informed, that, in New Zealand, not alone are higher wages paid for work on the land, but there are higher yields all round from the cow population and higher butter fat content also.

The £200,000 that is coming into the Exchequer from the increase in the price of butter, for the present month, I think it is, will go into theDairy Price Stabilisation Fund, and will help to meet the very heavy cost of cold storage of butter. We are really only getting butter during the summer months from our own producers and during the winter period we have had to depend to a greater extent on imports. As the Tánaiste pointed out, there is no profit to the Exchequer whatever from the increased price of butter. Any national profit will help to set off the cost of charges in respect of storage.

When you look at the headlines in some of the newspapers—"Consumer Prices Increased by Cabinet Action and Policy", "Pre-War £ Now Worth Less Than 9/-"—it would seem to the uninitiated that some sin which the Minister for Finance had been guilty of was responsible for reducing the value of the £ to 9/-. What has reduced the value of the £ to 9/-? The policies which have been followed in the neighbouring countries for years past, the state of inflation that has been allowed to continue when prices and wages have driven one another into an inflationary spiral situation. Now there is a painful process of adjustment going on in all these countries and it is pretended that in this country we can remain completely aloof, that we are in an ivory tower, and that what happens our neighbours or on the Continent or in America will not affect it.

We know that the price of wheat, the price of maize and the price of fertilisers on the foreign market will affect us. We know similarly that the price at which the Danes, the New Zealanders, the Australians, the Canadians, the Dutch and whoever else may be competing with us in the foreign market are able to sell their produce will determine the price we will get. If we do not consider that price good enough we are reduced to the position that we will be unable to export because we cannot sell in the foreign market unless our price is related to the price that obtains there, namely the international price obtaining at the time. Therefore, we will have to give up exporting altogether and depend on the home market. Have those who criticise the Government no conception of the fact that WesternEurope has been in this inflationary situation since the war period, that nearly every European Government has had to take steps to deal with it and put its finances in order by cutting down unnecessary consumption, cutting down unnecessary imports and taking the most stringent measures to increase home production and exports?

The Manchester Guardian,which represents the British industrial interests to a very great extent, particularly the textile industry and the great industrial area of Lancashire, had a leading article on the 3rd March last from which I propose to quote:—

"Competition: This year the stamina of British industry will be tested for the first time since the war. The textile slump, from which we have recently recovered, was part of a world-wide trend. This country was not hit more heavily than others. The struggle that is now beginning, not only in the consumer goods trades but in the whole field of engineering, is of a different kind. The pressure of post-war demand for goods of almost any type has slackened. Much of the reconstruction work is done and the inflation of credit has been greatly reduced. Almost everywhere production has caught up with the level of effective demand; that is, what the people and the country can afford to pay. This new balance of demand and supply has created a new situation. Competition has appeared again. After years of virtually guaranteed sales for anything that could be produced, British manufacturers and merchants are beginning to find that they must compete both with other firms and with other countries if they want to keep the factories going and the men at work."

In spite of the fact that Great Britain is devoting a large proportion of her industrial resources and capacity to rearmament projects, the position, according to the Manchester Guardian,is that they are faced there with a very grim situation this year because for the first time competition in the international market has appeared since the war. That is the opinion of an organwhich is in close touch with the English industrial worker.

England is an industrial nation with a long tradition, with great skills and with great resources. There they are viewing the present year with the greatest anxiety, because they see coming into the field countries like Japan and Germany, the elimination of which during the war had given them a comparatively free field for their exports for years past. They see now that that situation is changing and that the only way to deal with it is to become more efficient, to reduce their costs and to get away from the idea that, by arbitrarily increasing wages or other costs, they are doing other than what the Trade Union Council said—"Cutting themselves out of the world market."

I have quoted already a document in the hope that our friends in the Irish Labour Party might be tempted to read the remarks of their English colleagues, the T.U.C., in the statement issued by them in August, 1952, to the effect that:—

"In the absence of a rise in productivity, which cannot be expected to come quickly, substantial wage increases are bound to raise costs and rises in the cost of exports could in themselves press Britain out of world markets, and such an increase, therefore, might have the most serious consequences for our standard of living."

The statement goes on to say:—

"Costs are largely within our own control and to some extent within the control of the trade union movement."

As the Tánaiste pointed out recently, the increases in wages here compare very favourably with the increases in Britain. The cost of living here has not increased to the same extent as in Great Britain during the past year or so, while the increases in wages have outrun those in Great Britain. If one is to judge them from the point of view of the number of hours spent or the output given, seeing that our productivity is not the same as the British by any means and that ournational income is only half what the British national income is, it stands to reason that increases in wages not related to output, not aiming at higher productivity or not resulting from higher productivity must, therefore, have a very clogging effect upon our economic progress.

Purely political suggestions have been made that housing has been slowed up. That statement has already been contradicted here. There are precisely the same facilities. Indeed, there are greater facilities. I wonder if the subsidy per house being built at present in the City of Dublin has been reduced? I incline to the view that if the figures were procured we would probably find that the subsidy has increased. In any case building has been going on with steadily increasing momentum since 1946 and a considerable amount has been achieved in both the rural and urban areas and the greater part of the work has been done in providing homes for the working classes. In the City of Dublin a great deal still remains to be done but something approaching two-thirds, or 60 per cent. of the estimated arrears in 1947 has been achieved. Even in Dublin, therefore, despite the huge increase in population and the increasing demand for housing the situation has been kept well in hand.

House building at a comparatively high rate cannot continue indefinitely. There must be fluctuations. It is well known that the housing programme for which this Government is responsible represents only about one half of the total amount of employment and constructional work given generally. What we are doing is only equivalent to what private enterprise is doing in its own sphere.

I do not know how the Opposition has the audacity to refer to emigration remembering that it was their Government that set up a commission to inquire into emigration years ago, and that was their only solution. We have not yet received the report of that commission. The migratory labour with which the rural areas in the West of Ireland have been acquainted for generations has continued. Unfortunately inrecent years, as well as the large number of young men emigrating, we have had a very large number of young women, a very serious matter for the country. It is not easy to provide employment for these young women in their own areas and even when the employment is provided they may sometimes go. They have actually left employment provided for them by the Government, and for which good wages are paid, to go across to England. They first come to Dublin and that is merely a half-way house to get out of the country. I do not know that they are any better off.

I refuse to believe it is an economic question. I have never believed it, but if you want to stop emigration you have to provide the amenities for young people, to try to vitalise rural life, build up a community life that will enable young people to have the kind of social life and the amenities they would like to have and that they feel they can have when they come into the large cities.

It is a difficult problem but the Government cannot be accused of not doing everything possible to provide amenities. I should say the criticism might be that we are providing too much, that we are being too generous. Let us consider rural electrification, one item for which we are providing £904,810 in subsidy this year. Last year we provided £504,000, an increase of just under £400,000 in one year in order to provide this amenity in rural areas. The Government has made special grants for the improvement of tourist roads in these areas and it is perhaps no wonder people like Deputy Blowick would gibe at us and tell us we are doing it for political reasons. Those are the people who, on the one hand, have the audacity to get up here and talk about emigration, in spite of their Emigration Commission, and abuse the Government because presumably, it is not doing anything to stop emigration. I should like to know what more could be done by the Government than has been done in the tremendous development that has gone on under Bord na Móna in the setting up of both large and small power stations in the West of Ireland which, in due course, we hope, whether we see it or not, willlead to industrial development in those areas and provide that community life of which I have spoken.

I challenge Deputy Norton and anybody else who attempts to suggest that there has been any cutting down on capital expenditure or on capital schemes to have the honesty and decency to admit that there have been increases under almost every heading. Deputy Cosgrave goes through the Estimates to try to dig up some reductions here and there. Is it not the duty of the Minister and his Department to effect reductions in co-operation with all the other Departments, wherever it is possible, so long as those reductions will not adversely affect employment, production or the real welfare of the people?

Expenditure on hospital construction increased by nearly 20 per cent. in 1952 as compared with 1951. This year £4,500,000 is being provided. Deputy Dillon and others, in their post-1952 Budget speeches, delivered in March, 1953, in Dáil Éireann, have again harked back to this £10,000,000 surplus which never existed except as a figment of their imagination. I hope the anticipation of the Minister that he will close the year with a deficit will not be proved correct. He will be very lucky if he has a surplus, but to talk of a surplus of millions is simply eyewash.

Perhaps Deputy Cosgrave takes comfort in the hope that if the Taoiseach has arrived with a lifebelt, this extraordinary division in the Fianna Fáil Government may become serious. I am afraid it is not likely to become as serious as the cleavage in the last Government. I cannot see any contradiction in the statement of the Minister for Finance that inflation should be curbed. As he also says, the only way to reduce taxation is to reduce expenditure. We must reduce expenditure by giving up services that we expected to have, not demanding that they should be brought into operation, or by cutting down on the existing services. In the same way, if we cannot do anything better with regard to inflation, we can at least prevent it getting worse than it is.

Nobody ventured to envisage what the position might have been in regard to inflation and our general economic position if the Government, through the Minister for Finance, had not taken the steps he found it necessary to take in last year's Budget. From his point of view, the Tánaiste is quite right in saying—and the history of the period since the first world war shows —that a sudden fall in prices can have catastrophic effects and bring about a depression, perhaps a world depression. I do not know if there is much likelihood of that at present with the American Government maintaining firmly the ceilings of primary products which are the basis of the international structure of prices.

There is nothing inconsistent in making the statement, on the one hand, that inflation must be curbed and, on the other hand, that stability must be maintained as far as possible even with a degree of inflation, if the alternative is to create serious unemployment and a serious crisis or depression. My personal view is that with the extraordinary productive capacity of the world, with the way that mechanisation has gone on, the amazing improvement in methods and in reseach, our knowledge of soil science, of plant diseases, and so on, undoubtedly there would be a reduction in prices of foodstuffs if the population of the world remained normal. However, we are told it has increased by 50 per cent. since the year 1900 and that all those people are securing year by year a higher standard of living, consuming more and encroaching more on the world's food resources. As I stated in the beginning, food prices are going up in the world market and there is no evidence that they are going to come down.

I think that what the agriculturist, or the businessman for that matter but perhaps to a lesser extent, is really interested in, is to secure stable prices over a period and in my opinion the Tánaiste has done a good service to the country in calling attention to the necessity for stabilising prices at the existing level. If they go down somewhat lower, well and good; probably the housewife will benefit but if they were to go down catastrophically itwould mean of course a reduction in employment. It might mean a serious reduction in employment and have very adverse results for our Irish industry.

There has been a great deal of repetition of the expression "better off". Whether the people of the country are better off under one Administration as compared with another, may be due in some measure to the efforts of that Administration, but one Administration cannot suddenly depart drastically from, or reverse, the decisions and policy of its predecessor. It has to carry on the position as it finds it and make whatever adjustments it thinks right and necessary, if that is possible. It is not always possible to achieve that. But to say that we are living in a world where everybody could be better off, because of speeches made in Dáil Éireann about capital investments or about the methods of bookkeeping in national affairs or that because this Party or that Party has published a particular policy in its programme in regard to capital investment or capital expenditure, would seem to indicate that those who make these statements do not believe that our people are alive to the realities of the situation or are as capable of intelligently considering our problems as I believe every one of them to be. The people know that services have to be paid for if they are provided. They know that you have to pay your way and that, if you escape payment now, you will have to pay either in the near or the distant future and the longer it goes the more expensive it is likely to be. They know that services have to be paid for, and paid for out of taxation.

One of the disadvantages from which this country has been suffering is the nonsensical talk that has been going on that by some manipulation of credit or currency a situation can be brought about in which you need not work, you need not produce and you need not give value to the community for what you are getting, that you could live in comfort if the Government would only find the wherewithal. That is nonsense. Services can only be maintained out ofthe production of the people. As I said when I last spoke in this House, we have ended the epoch of free giving. We have now to face the situation that what we give has to be paid for. We have to face the problem of how these services are to be provided, how the production and the wealth-giving capacity of our soil and our industries will be geared up so that we shall be able to maintain the services and to give those who are employed in industry and agriculture better wages and better remuneration.

There has been an assumption with regard to Civil Service arbitration, apparently, that when the award was made, it should be automatically put into operation. Of course it is not automatic. If it were automatic in the sense that the Minister for Finance could get £1,000,000 or £2,000,000 or whatever sum is involved from some reserve at his disposal, and if he had not to come to this House to ask that taxation be levied to raise the amount, there might be something in that argument, but it is not automatic and never was intended to be automatic. The Government under pressure accepted the principle of arbitration. We put into operation last year an award, for which, as I stated in the beginning of my remarks, our predecessors had not made provision. We put that into operation; we felt that we should keep faith with the Civil Service and keep arbitration in being. We appointed a chairman; we sent our representatives there, they sent their representatives and the case was argued. It has been made quite clear at all times that as well as the alternatives of accepting in full the award of the tribunal or rejecting its findings, there was a third course open, which is the course the Government has taken. In the present year, as we announced, since the award would have been retrospective, we are not in a position owing to the budgetary situation to implement it as it would involve the imposition of additional taxation, by way of a Supplementary Budget presumably, to raise the money. We are not doing that. As regards the coming financial year, the whole matter will be carefully consideredwhen the budgetary situation is being examined by the Government. Seeing the attitude of the different Parties in opposition, if I were in the position of the Minister for Finance, I would have the most serious reluctance to come to this House to suggest that extra taxation should be imposed in order to provide for the award of the Civil Service Arbitration Board.

I am not opposed to the award in saying that and I am not prejudging the issue. Like every other Minister, I hope that when we come to consider this matter collectively, we shall consider it fairly and justly with due regard to fair play for all concerned, but I want to say that the attitude of the Opposition, who, for the past two days—for the past year, for that matter—have been grousing because the Minister for Finance and the Government had to introduce additional taxation to provide for the commitments that they left over, is certainly a very poor tribute to the intelligence of the Civil Service. I hope civil servants will not be deceived by these walrus tears from the other side of the House behind which there is very little sincerity. The Government is fully cognisant of the position of the lower-paid workers, but it is extremely difficult for the Minister and the Government to provide for all the charges, all the demands and all the services. Unless the House can make up its mind when we have these speeches, unless the people who want—presumably—the Civil Service arbitration award implemented are prepared to go a step forward and say that they are prepared to support the necessary taxation measures to carry that or any scheme in which they are interested into operation, we can only characterise their contribution to the debate as mere hypocrisy.

Deputy Costello referred to some schemes in regard to bog production. Of course, they are only infinitesimal in comparison with the huge schemes for electrification that have been planned. Due to the dry summer, there have been large accumulations of turf, and it has not been possible to dispose of them. We can onlyappeal to local authorities and to the citizens generally to buy turf and thereby help to keep employment going in those areas. There is this large surplus of turf which it has not been possible to dispose of. The most effective way in which that situation can be remedied and in which future employment can be assured to those who have been getting it in the past is to try to get greater turf consumption—to urge the public collectively, wherever there are authorities or institutions concerned, and individually as businessmen and as farmers, to lay in a stock of turf. They will get much better value than by buying the foreign fuel, they will be putting money into circulation in their own areas and they will be helping to give much needed employment.

Since the inception of this State a number of measures have been brought before this House by the different Governments, all having the one aim, i.e., the improvement of general conditions so as to give our people a better standard of living. I am not sure that all of these measures succeeded in that aim. I am of the opinion that a number of the measures had an adverse effect on the people— indeed as many of them as had a favourable effect. The result of all these measures has been to increase the cost of running this country from, I believe, a figure below £20,000,000 to a figure of over £100,000,000. That represents an increase of 500 per cent. Every Deputy realises just as well as the Minister for Lands that money does not fall down from heaven and that any schemes for the benefit of any section of the people must be paid for by the community as a whole.

I believe that while there is general dissatisfaction in this country at the manner in which the present Government are honouring the assurances they gave to the people during the general election campaign, the people have nobody to blame for the position in which they find themselves but the members of the Government and their spokesmen. Deputy Derrig, the Minister for Lands, made excuses for that position to-day. He told us that what is happening in foreign countries is thecause of the high cost of living and of our problems of unemployment and emigration. He said that events in European countries have had a definite reaction on the workings of this country since the conclusion of the war in 1945. I feel sure that Deputy Derrig made no such statement to the people in May, 1951. I have no hesitation in charging the members of the Government with being politically dishonest and with endeavouring to mislead the people not only in the past year and a half but since they first assumed office in 1932.

Deputy Derrig tells us that we must be satisfied with events as they are— that the Government are doing the best they possibly can. He attributes the blame to what is happening in European countries. He made no such statement to the people during the election campaign. I realise that it is very difficult for any Government to meet the problems that confront them at the present time. I may say that I should be only too glad to comment favourably on the work of any Government to try to solve some of those problems—provided they were honest about it. I agree that events in those countries have a reaction on us, but I would point out that they also had a reaction on us during the years 1948-51.

We heard a number of Deputies comment on the cost of living. Everybody knows that the cost of living has increased enormously in the past couple of years. I believe that the Government should give the people some more solid reasons for the increase in the cost of living than they have given in view of the fact that they contested the last general election on the cost of living issue. This Government's main slogan at the last general election was for a reduction in the cost of living. Across every poster that they issued to the Irish people was "cost of living." They definitely implied that if they got an opportunity of being elected to Government the cost of living would be reduced. I know very well how difficult it is to reduce the cost of living and at the same time to maintain prices to producers. There is no gettingaway from the fact that this Government have not faced up to their responsibilities. I realise that they are labouring under a grave and great disadvantage by virtue of the fact that they got into power under false pretences. Nevertheless, I believe they could do more than they have done to improve the conditions of our people.

In the course of this debate a number of Deputies made high-flown speeches, in which they brought in a number of technical issues. Undoubtedly, many of the speakers concerned have admirable qualifications, but they have lost touch with the ordinary plain people of this country. They have no knowledge of how difficult it is for some of those people to eke out an existence for themselves and their families. Some of the speakers to whom I have referred are living in and around Dublin in a world of their own. Despite all their talk about industries, they forget that agriculture is the main industry of this country.

I agree with an earlier speaker in this debate who said that if the Government had less to do with the agricultural industry then conditions in that industry would be much better. I do not believe that any Government should be under an obligation to pamper all sections of the community. I believe we have too much legislation in this country—legislation which is not generally beneficial to the interests of the people as a whole, but which is designed to attract votes for the Parties enacting it to help to keep them in office.

I believe that is one reason why we are in the position in which we find ourselves to-day. I believe that a number of political figures have from time to time made misleading statements to the people, giving them to understand that they could get this, that and the other thing almost for nothing, without making the people aware that any benefits they get must be paid for by someone.

I am not going to go further into the question of the cost of living. Everyone knows what the position is so far as that is concerned and of thedifficulty which many of our people are faced with in trying to meet the increase.

We have then the problem of unemployment. In view of the statements made by the Minister for Finance, that the population of the world has increased by 50 per cent. since 1900, it is regrettable that, in this country where over the same period the population has been reduced by 50 per cent., we are not able to provide some type of productive employment for all our people. The Minister also mentioned that not only had the world population increased by 50 per cent., but that the standard of living of the people in general had vastly increased. I think there is something wrong here when, with our reduction in population, we find ourselves unable to provide employment for all our people.

In my opinion, unemployment and emigration are inter-related. I think most of our present-day troubles can be traced back to the economic war. Many of the people in my part of the country were reduced to an impoverished state at that time. When there was no export market for their farm produce, the only alternative left to them was to send their families to England, Scotland or Wales or wherever else they could get employment. I believe that the present emigration problem had its roots in the economic war, and that no effort was made during the last 18 months to try and solve it. On the other hand, I believe that many efforts have been made to aggravate the problem and make it still more difficult of solution.

In that connection, I want to refer to the reductions which have been made in the sums to be voted for the development of our land so that we might get more production from it. There is also a reduction in the sum to be spent on the land rehabilitation project, as well as a partial cutting out of the Local Authorities (Works) Act. That policy is going to contribute very much to an increase in unemployment and in emigration.

We have no industries, with the exception of agriculture, in West Cork. Everything there depends on it. Ibelieve there is a definite obligation on whatever Government is in power to ensure that agriculture will get its rightful share of any money which will help to develop its resources, give more employment and increase production. I think it is outrageous that in this year, as other speakers have mentioned, we should be importing butter from across the world. That is the position to-day. When that is the position to-day, it may be that we will soon be importing poultry and eggs as well.

This Government and the last Government, or some Government have, I am afraid, made a lot of mistakes as far as these items are concerned. I want to bring home to the Government in as forcible a way as I can the need for expending more money on agriculture, which is our main industry. We hear a lot about industrial development. We know that there has been a good deal of it in Dublin and in Cork cities and in some of the big towns. The position would appear to be that everything is being centred in the big industrial areas, and that many of our politicians seem to think only of those areas and forget altogether about the people who have to try and make a livelihood on the huge tracts of land that we have throughout the country.

They are catering for the voters in the big centres of population.

North Mayo did not say that.

Deputy Murphy, without interruption.

The Minister for Lands spoke of the necessity of increasing production and mentioned the pig industry. What incentive did the last Government or this Government give in that direction? If my information is correct, and I have no doubt that it is, and if both the last Government and this Government had kept their hands completely out of the pig industry, the producers to-day would be receiving about 50/- more for each pig they fatten. If pig producers wereallowed to export them freely they could get that much more for each pig. If free exports of bacon were allowed to obtain, what would be the immediate consequences? It is reasonable to assume that, first of all, our pig population would be doubled, while the number of workers employed in the milling industry in producing feeding stuffs for the pigs would also be doubled. These results would, in turn, produce a definite source of income for the country from that industry.

What is the position at the present time? We have a number of bacon curers here who appear to have great influence with every Government that comes into power. As a result of that, they have been able to prevent every move made by different public bodies and public representatives to get a free export market for pigs. We all know what happened when, for a short period, the ban on exports was lifted. We know how prices jumped up and how the gentlemen controlling the bacon industry in this country had to sit up and take notice. But, unfortunately, the ban was again imposed, and so they got their way.

I am reluctant at all times to criticise any class of people or any industrial concern. There is a feeling in County Cork and probably in many other counties that the bacon curers are not giving a fair deal to the pig producers. That has a very adverse effect on the industry. The curers know they have a complete monopoly of the industry. They must get the pigs. They have adopted a grading system from which the consumer derives very little benefit but the consequences of which the producer knows to his cost. I do not understand why that should be allowed to continue. There is such a difference between the price the producer receives and the price the consumer pays that, even if the export market did exist, if the producer got 50/- a pig more, the price to the consumer need hardly be raised. I am not one of those who believe that you can give a good price for a pig and give a cheap rasher to the consumer, but the statement I have made can be borne out.

In comparison with other items mentioned in the debate, the production of pigs, fowl, turkeys and so on may seem a very small matter, but it represents the main livelihood of many of our people. It is just as wise to expend money in developing that industry as to expend it in other directions.

It is a peculiar thing that, in an area where there are mineral resources, particularly slate and copper, which could be used for local houses being built in the area, money has to be exported for the purchase of roofing materials. Within West Cork there are slate deposits. If the production of the minerals in the area received from the Government the attention it deserves, employment would be created which would obviate the necessity for emigration.

We heard from the Parliamentary Secretary and from members of the Government a great deal about the benefits which would be conferred on the west and south coast by the Undeveloped Areas Bill. I had hoped that that Bill would confer benefits on the people living in these areas because some of them are the most hard hit section of the community. Speaking for West Cork—I believe the same could be said for all the other areas—I may say that we have not got one single penny of benefit out of that measure. The Parliamentary Secretary visited the area. He explored the possibility of setting up this industry here and that industry there. Nothing was done and the likelihood is that nothing will be done.

No local initiative.

Is not there an obligation on the State when there is no local initiative due to the fact that the local people have no capital? How can you expect a group of small farmers or small business people to raise capital? It is only the sheltered gentlemen who can contribute £22,000,000 for a Government loan inside nine or ten days who could raise capital and who could live then on the interest of that capital at the fine rate of interest which they aregetting—5 per cent. The Government, thinking, perhaps, there was an election pending at the time, implied that something would be done in those areas. Nothing whatever has been done. It is unfair that all the industries should be in Dublin, Cork and a few of the big towns. If rural life is not to decay, industries should be established in rural areas.

Unemployment assistance and such money would help in the initial stages to subsidise industries. Probably the day would come when they would be economic. The system of dole, while necessary, is very degrading and very demoralising. It is degrading and demoralising for a young man, say, of 19 or 20 years of age, in a rural district, for whom there is no employment available, to have to go to the labour exchange and seek unemployment assistance and then attend weekly at the Garda station to sign for this money. Instead of that money being given to these people it should be put into some fund out of which employment would be provided, if not full employment, at least, two or three days' employment weekly.

I want on this Vote to express my disapproval of that system. It may be necessary. We have always agitated for assistance for people who, for reasons beyond their control, cannot work or cannot provide for themselves, but the present system is not a good one. I agree that these people should get something to live on, but could not some scheme be devised by which they would get work improving roads or draining land? The majority of these people, particularly young people who can work pretty well, would be only too glad to get work in place of assistance.

It may be all right for Ministers to talk about high finance, but the 697 persons who are at present registering at the labour exchange in Castletownbere have a very serious complaint against this Government. I know it is difficult to develop an uneconomic area like that, but there is an obligation on the Government to take cognisance of those 700 people and to promote some industry or some scheme that would be of benefit to them. No, Sir, instead of promoting any scheme that would be totheir benefit, the new schemes that were there have been reduced, as the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance, Deputy Beegan, and the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach know well.

It is all very fine to claim that we have no problems, but if you met these people and many others, particularly in the poorer areas of this country, and had a discussion with them, you would be told that they have no alternative but to emigrate. We hear a lot about emigration, and we hear that it is very much out of place for many of our young people to leave. I have advised a number of young people who came to me—seeing that there was no possible work that I, as a public representative, could help them to get, and that there was no likelihood of industrial development of any kind in the area—that the best way for them to manage would be to go into the world and seek a livelihood; and they went to England or elsewhere, as they had to go. That is due to the policy being pursued by this and every other Government.

I do not want to delay this discussion any more, but I would like to refer to another section of the people, as this Vote gives a fair amount of latitude, namely, the people in many of our towns. Due to the decline taking place in rural Ireland at present and the decay there—many eminent people have made the assertion that rural Ireland is decaying—it is only natural that people in the towns and villages would feel the result of the decay also. There are many small business people in towns who find it more than difficult to make ends meet at the present time. Take the publicans, some of whom have suffered very much as a result of tax impositions. It may be said they are no loss, that it is an advantage that they should suffer, that it is better that people should spend their money on some commodity other than drink. I agree with that to a certain extent, but so far as the publican is concerned the present position in every town in my constituency is that, due to the outrageous price of that particular commodity, a number of publicans who have only a small sale, in view of thefact that they have to keep the commodity so long in their hands that it eventually deteriorates, are completely wiped out of business. You have to take cognisance of these facts. It is all very well for people to say that such people should go out of business, but if they are going out of business there is some obligation on the Government to give them some return or to provide them with some other means of livelihood.

The Minister for Lands mentioned that further taxation would serve no useful purpose and I am very glad he has got that into his mind. He mentioned that if we were to increase taxation any further, instead of bringing in added revenue it would be likely to have the opposite effect. I am very glad this Government now has that fact in mind, because definitely every section of the community has felt the brunt of their policy over the past year and a half or 21 months they have been in power.

You can take the unemployed man in the street as the first case. He knows what the present policy has done towards increasing prices and causing unemployment. Take the publican on the side of the street, or the small businessman in a town or village, or take the small farmer out in the country. Each section knows how difficult it is to live as a result of the policy of the present Government. It may be claimed here that some sections should get preferential treatment, that certain people can submit index figures showing the cost of living has increased by a certain amount. I agree that those people may have a justifiable claim; but is it to be put before this Government or any Government, that because the cost of living has increased by such a percentage those people are to be covered and to get an increase accordingly? How will the unorganised people down the country, who see the figures increase from day to day, put up a case and say the cost of living has increased by such a percentage and that they want an increase in their income to ensure they will not suffer as a result of the increase in the cost of living?

It is only right and just, when thecost of living has increased and when there is a difficult situation at the present time, that everyone should equally bear the burden and it would be unfair to give to one section of the community security against that increase and leave other sections who are not so well organised to fend for themselves. I believe that every section of the community should be treated equally and fairly and I disagree with any agitation made in this House or in any other place to ensure that sheltered sections of our community should get what they seek while other people should be left without anything.

This is an outrageous figure of £100,000,000 that it costs to run the country. There are many people who have no great knowledge of public affairs but who maintain that it could be cut down without much difficulty. We had a member of the Government Party saying the administration costs were exceptionally high. There are other people down the country who believe, for instance, that there is no need to have five or six members of the Garda Síochána in one small village, that the position which obtains to-day is entirely different from that which obtained in the 1920's and 1930's when we had political strife, when we had a higher crime record than we have at present. Conditions in rural Ireland have completely changed in that regard. To take just that one instance, why do we need five or six men in the Garda in one village and five or six more in another village six or seven miles away? If this Book of Estimates were closely scrutinised, several items of expenditure could be eliminated. In themselves, such items may not mean much, but taken collectively they would take a great deal from this big sum and that money could be left to the taxpayers or could be put to more productive use.

I think I can see the day come when some Government operating in this country will have to take cognisance of these facts. The people will no longer be able to bear the taxation imposed on them, and a number of those items will be cut completely away from the Estimates Book. I feel sure that some of them could be cut down,as in the case of the Gardaí I mention. Take also the lack of co-ordination between public officials and public offices. You have an officer here from the Department of Agriculture going to County Cork, and an officer from the committee of agriculture there going around County Cork, doing practically the same work; yet there is no communication, good or bad, between them, and there is complete overlapping. I am inclined to agree to some extent with the Deputy who made the assertion that the number of public officials could definitely be reduced, without any adverse effect on the people.

In conclusion, I want to bring to the notice of the Minister, since I represent a rural area like West Cork, that I believe his first aim should be todevelop and improve the industry which is the source of livelihood for the bulk of our people, that is, the agricultural industry; and, secondly, that every effort should be made to see that the small farmer and rural worker will get justice and fair play and will be allowed a fair means of livelihood. I believe that when those people are catered for, and when they have a reasonable income, we can devise some system by which all other people willing and available for work can get it.

I move to report progress.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
The Dáil adjourned at 2 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Wednesday, 18th March, 1953.
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