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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Friday, 20 Mar 1953

Vol. 137 No. 6

Committee on Finance. - Central Fund Bill, 1953—All Stages.

Leave granted to introduce a Bill entitled an Act to apply certain sums out of the Central Fund to the service of the years ending on the thirty-first day of March, one thousand nine hundred and fifty-three and one thousand nine hundred ond fifty-four (Minister for External Affairs).
Agreed that the further stages be taken to-day.
Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

We are asked in this Bill to provide portion of the finance in connection with the expenditure for the coming year. It enables us to consider the general policy of the Government in relation to this request. The policy of the Government, as we have seen it operating since June, 1951, is such that we should express our concern at the manner in which the economic position is deteriorating especially in relation to the hardships being imposed upon the community in general. These hardships are not restricted to one section of the community. Every section of the community is suffering in consequence ofthis very harsh policy. We have a very serious recession in trade. We have confusion in agriculture and we have unemployment and emigration higher than it has been since 1939.

I tried to find in the speech of the Taoiseach a ray of hope in relation to the position as it exists to-day, but it appeared to be just an incoherent repetition of discarded arguments brimful with contradictions and hypocrisy. He spoke about the height the taxation level had reached. I remember when taxation was £75,000,000 he was pounding the desk here and saying it had gone beyond all limits. In spite of that, we now have the prospect that the nation will be required to put up £120,000,000 this year.

The Taoiseach, in the course of his speech, said that the policy being pursued by the present Government is the only wise one for the Irish nation. That may be his view, but surely we must ask: has it been wise for him, for instance, to refuse payment of the award to the Civil Service as the result of the recent arbitration? Was it wise to seek a decision on this issue and then to ignore it? Was it wise to increase the cost of living by 23 per cent. or to reduce the purchasing power of the Irish £ by 20 per cent. since 1951? The purchasing power of the Irish £ in 1951 was 10/10 in relation to the 1939 value. Now, in 1953, it is 8/10, a drop of 2/- in two years. The £ is growing stronger in Great Britain and it is growing weaker here. It must be in consequence of the policy being pursued by the present Government.

Was it wise to float a national loan at 5 per cent. interest and to impose a burden of repayment on the community which that high interest charge will involve? Has it been wise to implement the policy which has resulted in the increase in the number of unemployed to 90,000 compared with 38,000 in 1951 when the change of Government took place? It may be argued that there were 119,000 people unemployed in 1939 and that the position is not as bad as that; but conditions are different now. People need work andwages. The allowances available to them through the employment exchanges are not sufficient to meet their requirements when we consider the purchasing power of the £ at the present time.

The Taoiseach also said that no other policy can be followed. Surely that is an admission that they have no solution for the conditions which they impose upon the people themselves and cannot now relieve. Is this the last word from the Fianna Fáil Party and from the Leader of the Fianna Fáil Party? If it is the last word, and if it is a fact that no other policy can be followed, they should make way for a Government that can pursue a policy that will provide greater advantages to our people and relieve the position. Let us implement a policy such as we had during the inter-Party régime when our people enjoyed a better standard of living, when wages had increased on an average by 20 per cent., while the cost of living had only gone up 3 per cent., leaving a 17 per cent. advantage in the pockets of our people which enabled them to enjoy a better standard of living.

Is it not time to ask the Government to give the other political Parties a chance now to form a Government and have a general election on the issue so that the people will have a proper opportunity of making a clear decision? Although less than one-third of the people voted for the Fianna Fáil Party in the last general election, they are now clinging to office aided by the votes of a few Independents. They are operating a policy of restriction and curtailment instead of the progressive expansion that we knew when the inter-Party Government were in office.

Many sections of the people suffer hardships and even difficulties to-day because we have a Government supported by less than one-third of the voters. That is an undesirable position, particularly in a country where we consider the democratic system to be of advantage. The direct results of the policy pursued by the present Government are increased unemployment, a reduction of 20 per cent. in the purchasing power of the £, a steep increase in the cost of living and a recession in trade since 1951.

The majority of the voters supported Fine Gael and the other political Parties opposed to Fianna Fáil in the General Election of 1951 but we have now the position that the majority of the people are represented on the Opposition side while the minority are represented by a minority Government.

Why are you over there?

Ask some Independents why you are over there.

I do not need to ask them.

There is confusion in agriculture. At present the farmers do not know what to expect for their barley and oats. There is a guaranteed price for wheat and beet but as a result of the policy pursued by the present Government the farmers do not know what to expect for oats and barley.

Mr. Brennan

You guaranteed the price of oats?

We guaranteed the price of oats. I think the Deputy knows what happened in Donegal.

Mr. Brennan

You left it on our hands.

We took it from you and sold it at a profit afterwards.

Why should we have all this talk about oats when our Government is forced to borrow £41,000,000?

Perhaps Deputy Rooney might be allowed to continue with his speech.

The inter-Party Government were continually criticised because of their capital development programme. The inter-Party Government borrowed £39,000,000 to further that programme. We remember the pawnbrokers' signs that were displayed all over Dublin City and the country while the people were told that the country was being put in pawn because we were borrowing money in order to proceed with the capital developmentprogramme but when the change of Government took place the capital development programme initiated by the inter-Party Government was embraced by the Fianna Fáil Party. They did not go for a national loan in 1951 as they should have, but they went for a loan in 1952 and secured £20,000,000. I understand that that £20,000,000 has been spent already and that in fact a great portion of the £20,000,000 was gone before it was raised at all. In other words, the taxpayers are obliged to pay 5 per cent. interest on some millions of debt which was not made known to the public when the £20,000,000 was being sought.

It is obvious that further money will be required during the coming year if the capital development programme is to be pursued. We did not hear from the Minister for Finance whether he proposed to float a further national loan this year or what interest he proposed to pay. We used part of the Marshall Aid funds at 2½ per cent. for capital development purposes but the Irish people are forced to pay 5 per cent. on money raised internally in connection with capital development. They do not appear to have received any return for the £26,000,000 which remained in the kitty when the change of Government took place in June, 1951.

To pay your bills.

There were no bills to be paid when the change took place. The Taoiseach took national drainage as an example of the projects upon which he did not consider money had been well spent by the inter-Party Government. Apparently he is opposed to the investment of money in national drainage, as proper capital development. We proved during our three and a half years of office that the drainage of Ireland is a good investment and should be regarded as capital development. We should ask the people for a decision on that issue alone and we should be given the opportunity to get that decision from the nation. The people are holding their breath waiting for an opportunity to cast their votes in the next general election and theycertainly will let the Fianna Fáil Party know what they think of them, sooner possibly than they expect.

The Taoiseach pretends that he can allow the adverse trade balance at the present time to be equated with that of 1951. That is absolute nonsense. Even if all the restrictions regarding imports were removed and if facilities were made available for the importation of goods not normally manufactured in this country, our people would not buy them because they have their requirements already. They got their requirements mainly in 1951. The Taoiseach, on a few occasions, mentioned a figure of £61,000,000 in relation to our adverse trade balance. He spoke of the year 1951 as if the inter-Party Government were in office in that year. They were in office up to the 13th June of that year but the Fianna Fáil Party were in control for the remaining six months, and during the remaining six months the adverse trade balance amounted to £49,000,000. Consequently, if the Taoiseach wishes to place the blame on the inter-Party Government in connection with the adverse trade balance of 1951, he can only point to £12,000,000 for which they were responsible, because the remaining £49,000,000 arose during the latter part of 1951.

He pointed out also that in 1947 the Fianna Fáil Government were criticised because the adverse trade balance amounted to £30,000,000. Let us examine the figures to see what the meaning of that is. In 1947, the value of our exports was £38,000,000 and the adverse trade balance was £30,000,000. In 1951, the year about which the Taoiseach and his Party are making all the noise, in consequence of the policy of the inter-Party Government, particularly their agricultural policy, the value of our export trade had gone up to £100,000,000 as against an adverse trade balance of £61,000,000. It was, therefore, foolish for the Taoiseach to take 1947 and to grouse because we criticised an adverse trade balance of £30,000,000 in that year as against exports to the value of £38,000,000. We reached the remarkable figure of £100,000,000 as the value of our exportswithin three and a half years and the figure is going up still in consequence of the policy pursued by the inter-Party Government through Deputy Dillon.

We also had industrial expansion during those years. The number of people who were able to get new jobs while our Party was in office was 38,000 —38,000 people in 38 months. That was the position when the change of Government came. The people have been losing employment at the rate of 1,000 a month—instead of an extra 1,000 a month going into employment as they were when the inter-Party Government were in office.

The national debt was trebled between 1932 and 1939—and there is not a word about it—when the Fianna Fáil Party were in office. A new Government can alter the position. We are waiting for the opportunity to reverse the policy being pursued by the present Government because it is not one suitable for this country. It is a policy suitable for a nation which is rearming—a nation such as Great Britain. Apparently the policy being pursued here follows on the lines of the British policy.

In terms of money, the increase in the cost of living amounts to approximately £20,000,000. That means that our people are paying £20,000,000 more to-day for the ordinary needs of the household—for food, clothing and shelter. That increase is taken from their weekly wage packet and incomes from other sources. The housewives are distracted by the measure of uncertainty that exists at the present time. Every week when they go to the shops there is a change for the worse so far as the wage packet is concerned.

The Minister for Industry and Commerce, Deputy Lemass, described the talk about the cost of living as "blah". Many housewives would resent that description of the torture which they now endure towards the end of the week when they try to balance their budget. He described the talk about the cost of living as "blah" on an occasion when Deputy A. Byrne was stressing the anxiety that existed among the people about the matter.

It is time once again to remind theFianna Fáil Party of point 15 of their programme. In point 15 of their programme they said that they proposed to maintain subsidies, to control the prices of essential foodstuffs and to operate an efficient system of price regulation for all necessary and scarce commodities.

They said they proposed to maintain subsidies. I presume that that meant that it was intended to keep the subsidies at the level at which they were when Fianna Fáil were seeking the support of a few Independent Deputies in order to enable them to establish the present Government. But they were less than a year in office when they changed their policy.

They said they would control the prices of essential commodities. They have been busy decontrolling the prices of many essential foodstuffs going into the homes of our people.

They said that they would operate an efficient system of price regulation. It is clearly apparent that no system of price regulation is operating now, in spite of the measure of taxation that is being applied in other directions.

Let us examine a few of the changes which have taken place. Bread has gone up by 2½d. a loaf and flour has gone up by 2½ a stone. Butter— which was one of the issues in the last general election when it had gone up by 2d. a lb.—has now gone up from 2/10 to 4/2 a lb.

Mr. Brennan

Will you take it down?

The Minister for Industry and Commerce coolly came into this House and said that New Zealand butter can be made available at 3/9 a lb. Although it can be made available at 3/9 a lb., the consumers are obliged to pay 4/2 for it. Let me mention also that the milk producers are disgusted with the manner in which their case was handled by the Minister for Agriculture. He simply welshed on them. He handed over to the Minister for Industry and Commerce and the Taoiseach a matter that normally he should handle himself. Consequently, a very unsatisfactory settlement has been reached.

We are importing more butter now than ever before. When the present Minister for Agriculture came into office in June, 1951, he told the people that in March and April, 1952, the Irish people would not be eating one ounce of foreign butter. He said that all the butter that would be consumed by our people would be produced at home. Instead, we have a position now in which we are importing far greater quantities of butter—and the number of our cows has fallen by 80,000. Surely the Minister for Agriculture is failing in his duty when he is not operating a policy which will ensure that the butter requirements of this country will be maintained. We had a surplus of butter in 1950.

Other items which have increased in price are as follows. Sugar has gone up by 2½d. a lb. Tea has gone up from 2/8 to something around 5/- a lb. Cigarettes have gone up 7d. per packet of 20. In passing, I would mention that the last Budget included a present of £1,000,000 for the poor tobacco manufacturers. It was certainly a grand piece of compensation for those unfortunate people. Stout and porter have gone up 3d. a pint. Petrol has gone up 4d. a gallon since last year. Income-tax has gone up 1/- in the £. The price of fresh meat has been decontrolled and the price of bacon has been decontrolled. These are the results of the policy which has been implemented by the Fianna Fáil Party since they came into office in June 1951. They got into office under false pretences and they have been operating a false policy since.

There is a complete slump in consequence of the higher interest charges. We encouraged private enterprise. We encouraged the building contractors to erect houses as rapidly as possible and to make them available for sale. We now see new houses for sale all over the country. Having erected them, the building contractors cannot sell them. Worse still, they are unable to build any more houses until they have sold the houses which lie unsold on their hands at the moment. This change has come in consequence of the increased interest charges and the other burdens placed upon the community.

Rates have continued to rise—and rates are a direct tax upon the ratepayers. They have no option but to pay them. People have discretion in connection with other taxation. Possibly, they can refrain from purchasing one commodity or another but rates are a direct tax which they must pay. In consequences of the policy of the present Government, rates have jumped one year after another.

I should like to know why the Secret Service Vote has again been increased. It was £8,000 when the inter-Party Government came into office.

I think that matters of detail could more appropriately be raised on the Estimates.

Very well. I heard Deputy Bartley talk about electricity last evening. The difficulty which the Cumann na nGaedheal Government experienced when they were trying to introduce the Shannon scheme is well known—and we are all aware of the advantages which that scheme brought the country down through the years. When the inter-Party Government came into office we found very little change in relation to electrification. We found that the Fianna Fáil Government had embarked on an experiment that was published up and down the country—the experiment of rural electrification. That experiment took place just outside Dublin City—near Finglas. That is the one and only area where rural electrification was tried by the Fianna Fáil Government, although they had plenty of opportunity during the 16 years they were in office.

The inter-Party Government came into office and found electricity rationed, and so it was necessary for them to begin, as quickly as possible, to establish electric power stations. We did put in an oil-burning and a coal-burning station in order to increase the electricity ration for our people. These are the two items which are being criticised now. But, apart from that, we embarked on a vigorous programme of rural electrification. There was no hesitation aboutit and no question of an experiment. We realised that this amenity was needed by our people, and that it could be financed by the State to the advantage of the community.

I heard Deputy Bartley yesterday criticise the fact that the establishment of a chassis factory was abandoned. If he thinks that it would be of great advantage to the country, why does his Party not establish it now? Why is no attempt being made to establish it? We spent £250,000 on a recehorse last week. Will that purchase be of better advantage to the country than a chassis factory? Would the chassis factory be a greater gamble than the purchase of the racehorse which the Minister for Agriculture described last week as a gamble? I think we have heard enough about the chassis factory. If Fianna Fáil wish to establish it, let them do so and have no more talk about it. It was not considered desirable by the inter-Party Government at the time in view of the many more urgent problems which had to be handled then.

The speech of the Minister for Industry and Commerce was a defensive speech and so was the speech of the Taoiseach the other day. It was just a succession of excuses. It is not excuses, however, which the people want but results. If I may quote Deputy Dillon, "the best test of any policy is its results." We have seen the results of Fianna Fáil policy since June 1951. They are staring the community in the face. The people are opposed to that policy, but the Government, apparently, are going to proceed with it. We have the Taoiseach saying that it is the only wise policy. Apparently, he considers that he is the only man in the country who can judge what is best for the Irish people. If he thinks so, then he should give them an opportunity of expressing their views as soon as possible. We are anxious for a general election. So are the people, and in the interests of democracy a general election should not be long delayed.

We have a Government at the present time which exists because there are five Deputies, calling themselves Independents, determined at all costs to ensure that the Fianna FáilGovernment, which is a minority Government representing a minority of the voters, will continue in office just because of personal spleen against one person or another on these Opposition Benches. It is unfortunate that this personal spleen can be operated in this House in a manner to impose on our people the hardships that we know of at the present time.

Mr. Brennan

I will begin by repeating a phrase used by the previous speaker. He said that the best test of any policy was its results. That was an echo of a statement made by Deputy Dillon. The result of the Coalition Government, during its short term in office, was to dissolve the Dáil overnight before it could have a chance of discussing a Budget which was not even balanced and of running the country to the verge of bankruptcy. Rather than face an adverse vote and defeat in this House on that Budget, they went to the country overnight.

To come back to the question of employment and stability in the nation, I wonder does anyone believe that the cure for unemployment is one which will provide people with temporary employment on relief works for a fortnight in the winter, clearing ditches along the roads or making drains? If that is what the Coalition Government propose as a cure for unemployment, then it is time they told the country that that is their policy.

The last speaker gave us a good deal of insight into his wishful thinking. He criticised every aspect of Fianna Fáil policy but made certain not to attempt, even once, to give any indication of what the policy of the Coalition Parties would be if they got back into power to-morrow. Neither did any other member of his Party do so during the debate here over the last week. No indication was given by them as to what the policy of that conglomeration of Parties would be. Their desire seems to be to create in the minds of the people the impression that, by some magical effort on their part, they can do things which others cannot do. They try to make the people believe that they can maintain high expenditure on social services and at the same time reduce taxation.

The most farcical statement of all was when the last speaker tried to condemn the increase in the price of butter, at the same time blaming the Government for not handling the milk producers' problem properly. It was a case of running with the hare and hunting with the hounds—of trying to get kudos from the milk producers and at the same time playing up to the housewife regarding the cost of living. Will somebody on the Opposition Benches tell us what they would do if they were the Government to-morrow? Would they take down the price of butter and just give the producers the old price which they had been receiving for their milk? I think it is about time that we had a statement from the Opposition on that.

In fact the same argument can be applied to many of the other things which the last speaker dealt with. We had a rather amusing statement from him when he tried to blame Fianna Fáil for the increase in imports during the period when the Coalition were in office, and in the same breath he proceeded to take credit for the increase in our exports which has helped to correct the adverse trade balance. In other words, Fianna Fáil were to blame for the high imports during the time of the Coalition Government when that Government was bringing in consumer goods here, but then, according to the last speaker, the increase in exports which has resulted since has been due to some peculiar activity of the Coalition during its years in office. That is the type of thing which the Coalition Parties are playing up to the electorate in their anxiety and endeavour to confuse the minds of the people, all of course for the sole purpose, as they think, of getting back into office should the opportunity ever arise.

His references to electrification were equally amusing. He said that when they came into office they found the position was similar to what it was when they left office in 1932 except that there had been a small experiment outside Dublin in rural electrification. Surely the other members of his Party will reprimand him seriously for putting before the people a statementof that kind. By the falseness of his statement will the sincerity of any spokesman of the Opposition be judged. Did he not realise that the electrification scheme at Ballyshannon, in which upwards of £8,000,000 was expended and which was carried on during the emergency, was entirely sponsored by Fianna Fáil and that every bit of that work was carried out by Irish engineers who were recently switched on to the general network of electrification?

Did he not feel ashamed when he said that the only thing he could point to during those years that the Coalition did for electrification was the erection of two stations, one a coal-burning station and the other an oil-burning station, in a country teeming with natural power and resources still unharnessed?

We have done more for electrification since we returned to office than the Coalition or Cumann na nGaedheal, Fine Gael, the Farmers' Party, the U.I.P., or whatever it was called, did during all those years from the foundation of the State up to the last days of the Coalition.

You only opened them. They were ready for you.

Mr. Brennan

We initiated rural electrification and extended it to a huge area during those years. The one thing for which the Coalition Government will be blamed, not merely now, but in history, is their responsibility for the greatest mistake this nation has ever made, that is, the misuse of so much borrowed and public money during their short term of office.

The creation of employment in this country is not a simple matter. It is quite easy to create relief employment, but we will not bring the people back from England and America to make drains in the winter for a fortnight for the purpose of showing figures of employment that are entirely misleading. Employment should be of a permanent nature in which people can look forward to a future in which they can settle down, get married and build up homes. That is the type of employment needed here.

You did not get this last register, did you?

Mr. Brennan

That is the type of employment that would be given by a policy of national self-sufficiency which was never supported by the people on the opposite benches. That is the type of policy Fianna Fáil have pursued and are pursuing, and which will ultimately lead to the solution of the unemployment problem. There is no other solution. The amount of money expended during the years of office of the Coalition Government on unproductive work, on projects which were not lasting or permanent, was a disgrace and could be attributed only to one thing.

What projects were these?

Housing?

What were the projects that were not lasting?

Mr. Brennan

I could name quite a few of them.

Off you pop.

Mr. Brennan

It could be attributed to only one thing, that was, the day to day policy of the Coalition in order to create a false sense of prosperity because they did not know when the election was around the corner. The election was likely to take place any day, and it took place when it was least expected by the people. I have known Ministers of that Coalition Government to come to Donegal and speak at election meetings and point out that we had not taken full advantage of the Local Authorities (Works) Act. As a member of the local authority in Donegal, I was well aware that we had gone around bog roads, roads that were hardly capable of carrying a cart, looking for drains which we could submit in order to capture our share of that money. We cut ditches. We made drains, in many cases along disused country roads or old dilapidated pathways, in order to capture our full share of this money which was being expended to create a false sense of prosperity.

That was a nice use to make of public money.

Mr. Brennan

We would have some permanent results for that money if we had been allowed to use it on the surface of the roads which so badly needed it, but it had to be used for some particular purpose. We had to go around in search of drains in order to put the money into them and to tell the people that we were creating employment.

The Taoiseach is also opposed to drainage.

Mr. Brennan

There is drainage and drainage as such, but making drains along derelict roads is not a productive form of employment nor is it one likely to solve the unemployment question except for a fortnight's relief work. It serves one purpose only—it serves the purpose of enabling the Party in power at the time to point to the number employed and to say that the country is prosperous and that they are doing a great job.

That is not a situation that anybody should hanker after. Any employment that is created should be of a productive type that will produce here goods that we are importing and give permanent employment to the people so that a man would know when he took up a job that he could marry, establish a home and settle down. Nobody wants a fortnight's work on a bog road or a drain. It may be useful in helping him over difficult periods. The minor employment scheme was initiated by Fianna Fáil for that purpose but such work should not be regarded as a permanent solution to the unemployment problem. If all the money that has been spent over the years in that way had been utilised in setting up factories to produce goods that we import, we would now be much further on the road towards a solution of unemployment and the creation of permanent employment.

It is only right that I should again refer to the Independent Deputies who support this Government.

We are anxious to hear about them.

Barnacles!

They are a pretty ragged lot.

Mr. Brennan

Deputy Rooney, in his entire speech—Deputy Dillon was not here at the time—dealt with the Independent Deputies who support Fianna Fáil but he failed to tell the House the simple fact that each and every one of those Deputies went to the country as an opponent of the Coalition Government, that every vote recorded for them in the election was a vote against the Coalition Government, that they would be entirely misrepresenting the mandate they got from the people if they supported a Coalition Government. When they returned to this House they were the voices of the people who were bitterest against the Coalition Government. In denying that fact, and in denying the fact that we have here Independents who should be Independents and who are Independents and who are supporting this Government, the Opposition are only trying to draw a red herring across the track, to mislead the people.

We discarded them.

Mr. Brennan

You were very glad to have them and sat up all night to try to buy them.

Surely that question does not arise on the Central Fund Bill?

It is not even a question: it is an untruth.

Mr. Brennan

A previous speaker referred to it repeatedly at length.

The previous speaker referred to it in passing, not at great length. If he had, the Chair would have pointed out that it did not arise.

Mr. Brennan

We have nailed it once again, if he has any sense of under standing.

Or nailed them?

Mr. Brennan

The previous speaker referred to a surplus of butter. He said there was a surplus in 1950 andhe gloated over it and then said we imported butter in 1951. He seemed to try to create the impression that it was due to Fianna Fáil coming back to power in 1951 that the butter was imported. He made no effort to explain why if there was a surplus in one year we suddenly reached the stage next year where we had to import.

We had too much. We exported.

Mr. Brennan

Exported before it was actually made? That is a miraculous sort of thing.

The figures are there.

Mr. Brennan

It was exported before the milk came out of the cows? In actual fact it did not exist and the result of mishandling the dairy situation was that people were rapidly getting out of dairying and the milk supply was going down monthly and daily. That is interesting, in view of the cry being raised at the moment in connection with the increased price of butter. If we are to keep our farmers producing butter, we have to pay them for it and those with experience of cows know what it costs to keep them and what butter costs to the producer.

It is time some member of the Opposition who may be held up as a responsible spokesman would clearly indicate where those Parties comprising the Opposition would effect economies if they succeeded in getting back to power. I read carefully the statement made by the ex-Taoiseach at the Fine Gael Ard-Fheis and I would ask anyone to read it over and over again and having done so, if they can find one single thread or clue as to the future policy of the Coalition they are reading into it something that no one has yet been able to read into that statement.

We will continue our previous policy.

Mr. Brennan

It was a masterpiece in saying nothing in many words. I would ask some member of the Opposition to indicate clearly where they propose to effect economies. Do theypropose to reduce the expenditure on social services or to carry them on? Do they propose to reduce the cost of living by getting back to the old price which was paid for butter and which was paid for milk prior to the recent increase? Is that their method of economising? Do they propose to do as they were doing during the years of the Coalition Government, to import consumable goods, textiles and other materials which could perhaps be produced at a cheaper price than we were producing our own at home, going back to those methods for the purpose of window dressing? These are the statements the public would like to hear from the Opposition.

It is very easy to criticise the expenditure one day as excessive and another day to point out that we are not spending enough. The last speaker actually accused us of drying up expenditure and creating stagnation in expenditure. It would be very interesting and instructive to the community as a whole if some spokesman of the Opposition would clearly indicate now which means, if any, it is proposed to adopt to effect the economies we have heard so much about. Do they propose to reduce children's allowances, widows' and orphans' pensions and the various increases in social services effected over the year? That would be a very easy way to effect economies and reduce taxation.

Cutting the subsidies would be another.

Mr. Brennan

I would remind the ex-Minister for Finance that there is more money for subsidies in this year than there was in 1947, but the Party opposite condemned them as a system of taking money out of one pocket and putting it into another.

Was that not what it was expressed to be?

Mr. Brennan

That was your case then; but when the subsidies were reduced or removed, they were the grandest thing in the world.

You were either wrong then or you are wrong now.

Mr. Brennan

I would challenge the Opposition to tell us what they propose to do, what their future policy is in regard to these things.

Come to Wicklow and we will tell you.

Wicklow will give you your answer.

Mr. Brennan

You went to Wicklow before and you regretted it. I am only a new member in this House for a short time——

You are a topper.

Mr. Brennan

——but I have taken a keen interest in the debates here over a number of years, and as long as I remember, the Opposition have been challenging Fianna Fáil to an election; but, one by one, they went to the country and came back stronger than ever, and the Opposition had to give up their places with their lips hanging in dismay.

I must thank you, Sir, for calling me, having spent five hours in the Chamber yesterday to try to get in for a few short minutes. My remarks will be brief. In view of the statements made yesterday during the debate, it is apparent that the country is on the verge of a very serious economic upheaval. This stares every one of us in the face and should be of grave concern to us all. The utterances of the Taoiseach and other Government Ministers state that the country has reached saturation point in taxation. With those sentiments I am in complete agreement. Not only is the country reeling under the severity of the load of taxation, but it is wobbling, and, unless a halt is called, the outlook for the people who provide the country's finances is very grim indeed.

Further taxation must stop. The people are not able to bear it and the signs are visible that the people are being squeezed out of existence. Day after day we read of ratepayers coming together in associations throughout the country, and particularly in the South, to defend their interests, and surely the organising of these associationsshould be sufficient indication to the Government and the Dáil that the end of the tether has been reached where they are concerned.

We must ask ourselves what is the cure for this. In my opinion, it is for us here to say that a halt must be called in the matter of further taxation and any schemes which would inflict further impositions on the already harassed taxpayers must be brought to an end. An ordinary observer listening to debates that take place here would imagine that we were one of the wealthiest countries in the world. We speak not only in terms of millions, but in terms of hundreds of millions, and it seems appalling that the drain on the taxpayers for the provision of the services we are supposed to require should be of the order of £100,000,000. We are a small country compared with countries in Europe and other continents. We have a small population of 2,750,000 and it is appalling that the running of such a small country should involve the taxpayers in a drain of approximately £100,000,000 per annum.

The strain is being felt all over the country and more particularly so during the past six or 12 months. Those of us who live down the country, no matter what business or avocation we are in, or what our mode of life may be, realise that there is a blight—that is the most descriptive word for it— over the country for the past six or 12 months. Any decent man, whether in opposition or otherwise, must realise that. Those of us who come in here to do our best for the people who sent us here, irrespective of their political creeds, cannot blind their eyes to these facts. We have come in here not to make a living out of politics. We do not want to do so, and, if we were to go out of politics to-morrow morning we would, I hope, be able to live, but the fact stares every one of us in the face that for the past six or 12 months something has gone wrong.

I can assure the House that everyone is seriously worried, and no wonder. The State is asking far too much from the ordinary people who have to work hard to make their living. People whom I meet in my wanderings aroundmy constituency ask me: "Have you gone mad up there in Dublin? Do you think we are a country with the financial backing of a large country like the United States? Day after day, you pass millions as if they did not matter." These are simple but true words from the ordinary people who sent us here and so long as I am here, be it long or short, I propose to do my best for them and will not make any promises here in the House or on the hustings that I feel I am incapable of fulfilling.

The people feel that they are being throttled by the octopus-like grip of the State, which is asking far too much from them. The terrific load of taxation on the already overburdened shoulders of the people is killing incentive. It is no wonder the people are becoming lethargic. There is no pleasure in working at all because you realise that every day's work you do is for the State and not for yourself. People have said that to me on several occasions: "Why should we want to work when every morning there is some new imposition placed on us?" I want to warn the House that the end of the road has nearly been reached. There is a song which was immortalised by Peter Dawson—"Keep right on to the end of the road." We are nearly at the end of it. So far as further taxation is concerned, the end of the road has been reached.

There is one particular matter causing serious concern to the people— the huge increase in the rates. People just cannot meet them. It was very unpleasant for us in my County of Cork to read of a 3/- increase in the county rate and how people are to meet that increased rate, I do not know. As I said earlier, ratepayers' associations are being formed because the ratepayers must come together if they are to safeguard their interests. This is the month in which the local bodies' estimates are made out for the year and we see, in every county of the Twenty-Six, the rates being increased considerably. That is going to throw a burden on many people which they are incapable of bearing.

I read in one of the Dublin papers an article in deep black type and headed "Unable to pay their rates" which should be sufficient warning to the House. It says:

"In the last months, it has become perfectly plain that the people who are not paying their rates are not defaulting in the strict sense of the word but are not paying because they cannot pay."

That is a very true statement. A number of professional men—doctors, barristers, solicitors and engineers— were brought before a court in Dublin lately in connection with payment of rates and we can imagine the humiliation that must be caused to people of that type in having their private affairs exposed to the world. It means the signing of their death warrants so far as credit in the city and in the country is concerned.

The very same thing is happening in towns in the South of Ireland. At the local district courts every day summonses are heard against people who for the first time in their lives have experienced the horrible position of finding themselves in a court unable to pay their rates. I do not blame those people because the rates have gone sky-high. They are not able to pay them. What is the cause of all this? I believe that it all started as a result of the slashing of the food subsidies in the last Budget. That matter was referred to here over the last three or four days and I do not wish to dwell too long on it. Everyone is finding it extremely difficult to live. Deputy Rooney mentioned several items the prices of which have increased over the last 12 months. The price of butter, eggs, tea, sugar, petrol has increased. Taxes have increased. In the name of God where is it all going to end? How can the people stand up to it? I do not know. In a country with a population of 2,750,000 taxation represents £33 10s. per head. It strikes me that the people who are working are endeavouring to keep everybody else and they have just got despondent.

There has been a vast increase in the rates throughout the country. Side by side with that, the valuations of mostpremises throughout the country have increased. There is no incentive to do anything. If one tries to beautify one's premises the officers of the valuation department clap on another £10, £15 or £20 to the valuation and with a rate of 30/- or 40/- in the £ that means an increase of £16 to £20 on the rates. I know people in my own town who beautified their premises and put on a new frontage—they did not enlarge their premises—but the valuation department stepped in and up went the people's rates.

In the town of Youghal a man put a new roof on his house to keep the rain off himself, his wife and family. Down came the valuation officer and up went the rates. There is not another country in the world that would put up with that sort of thing. It kills incentive. These are very serious matters for the people living in the towns of rural Ireland. It would not have been too bad in days gone by when the rates were 10/- or 12/-in the £, but now, when they are anything from 30/- to 40/- in the £, the matter is much more serious. The person who wants to make his property look well and keep it in a decent state of repair is victimised. To me that is shocking.

The night before last I listened to Deputy Seán Flanagan, who, I thought, made a very good speech. I jotted down one of his remarks, one which, I think, is not strictly in accordance with the truth. He referred to the dramatic results achieved during the last 12 months in reducing the adverse trade balance. No wonder the ex-Minister for Finance exclaimed: "Good heavens!". We talk a lot about the adverse trade balance, but the ordinary man in the country is not conversant with finance either of the high or low variety. It does not worry him a lot. He leaves it to the financiers to do the best they can. The vast army of unemployed find it harder than ever to get a day's work.

We cannot shut our eyes to the fact that the number of unemployed shown on the list forwarded to every Deputy in this House by the Central Statistics Office has soared to astronomical heights. That is the only way I candescribe it. It is just too bad that, in a little country like this, we have practically 90,000 people unemployed. Several speakers said that the outlook for them was very ominous. The mercury in the unemployment barometer is rising day after day. That, in my opinion, is due to the recession in trade that has taken place over the last year. Things are not as good as they were 12 months or two years ago. Every businessman throughout the country will tell you that trade is by no means what it was 12 months or two years ago. Businessmen have not the turnover to pay their employees. Without turnover, profits shrink, and a man has to see where he can safeguard his own interests. No man wants to dismiss an employee that he thinks a lot of, but having regard to the situation, he has no other alternative.

One trade above all others has been taxed out of existence. I refer to the licensed trade in this country. The licensed trade received what was tantamount to a knockout wallop by the severe taxes imposed in the last Budget. If I would not be out of order, I would respectfully suggest to the Minister who is deputising at the moment for the Minister for Finance that he should ease considerably the burdens placed on the licensed trade. The licensed trade is being crippled. The Budget for the coming year is now being prepared and I would suggest that the licensed trade should have their burden eased. One of this morning's Dublin papers contains the following:—

"Barmen want Budget relief for drink. The Irish National Union of the Vintners', Grocers' and Allied Trades Assistants has sent a circular to all the Fianna Fáil T.D.s——"

I emphasise the words "Fianna Fáil". We did not get that circular because we on this side of the House were opposed to the severe taxes imposed on the licensed trade last year. The licensed trade know that. The quotation goes on to say:—

"——urging them to make the strongest possible representations to secure relief in the coming Budget in the duties on beer and spirits. The circular says that the duties imposedlast May have had a ‘crippling effect' on the trade and that the union now has over 100 members unemployed and on short time——"

This only refers to Dublin alone. The quotation goes on:—

"——and that at least another 100 are threatened with dismissal if there is no improvement this year. The union considers that unless something is done to relieve the trade there will be widespread unemployment by the end of 1953 and that many traders will have become bankrupt."

That is a serious statement from a reputable body of men whose livelihood has been jeopardised and severely threatened by the severity of the taxes imposed.

That has had its repercussions in other ways also. My constituency of East Cork is one of the best barley growing constituencies in Ireland. Barley growing is one of the main sources of income to the farmers of East Cork. This year, the contracts for barley have in most cases been cut by 50 per cent. by Messrs. Guinness and Co., Beamish and Crawford, Murphy and the Cork Distilleries Co. That shows the effect on the farmers who were earning a decent living out of the growing of barley. It is due in my opinion to the slackness in the liquor trade. I am stressing this because I know how very badly hit many people are who are making their living out of the licensed trade. The same thing applies to the barley growers in East Cork. I know very many of them, and where a man grew 100 acres of barley last year his contract this year is for 50 or 60. That is a serious matter for these farmers, particularly as there is a tradition in the agricultural community down there to depend on barley for a considerable portion of their income.

I listened with attention to the speech of Deputy Dr. Browne, who desires that the importation of coal into this country should be prohibited. I should not like to see that done, because those of us in the South of Ireland who do not live in a turf area have very unhappy recollections ofwhat we had to endure during the emergency so far as turf is concerned.

That was the Fianna Fáil turf. You did not get the really good turf which we can produce.

At that time we were paying for what I can only describe as weeping earth.

The Deputy is travelling a long way from the motion before the House.

With all respect to you, Sir, another Deputy mentioned this matter. I can assure you that we have very unhappy memories of that. We do not want turf unless we get some of the decent turf which Deputy O'Donnell assures us we will get when we get back into power. I must disagree completely with my friend Deputy Giles, who made a rather remarkable statement here yesterday, that he would blow up sky-high all Irish industries. I think he blew up a lot of things sky-high. He wanted to blow up Dublin Castle sky-high as well as Irish industries. Some of us take a very great interest in Irish industries. When I say Irish industries, I do not mean some of the industries which were started in the alleyways and back streets of Dublin during the last ten or 12 years by certain people of doubtful origin so far as their country is concerned. I have the greatest admiration for the industrialists of Ireland who during the last 25 or 30 years poured their money into and devoted their ability to the establishment of Irish industries. I do not know where many of our towns would be were it not for the industries which were started.

In my own town we have two of the finest industries in Ireland started by Irishmen who were desirous of seeing that no Irish boy or girl would have to emigrate if it were in their power to prevent it. We in Youghal are in the fortunate position of having up to 400 people employed in our two factories. I stated before and I want to repeat it now that I will always be grateful to those who gave us those two magnificent factories. As a representative of that area and one who was elected by many of their votes, I should like onbehalf of the workers there to thank the people who gave us these industries. The starting of these industries in my constituency was due to men who had the foresight and the courage to put their money into them. The local council and the townspeople provided the facilities for starting these factories by supplying an adequate water supply, sewerage and housing accommodation.

My colleague in the East Cork constituency, Deputy Corry, speaking on this day week, stated: "It is not so long ago since myself and Deputy O'Gorman were present at the opening of a factory in Youghal. If Deputy O'Gorman is anywhere in the House (I was listening to him at the time) I am sure he will bear me out in that." That was all right so far, but then he went on to say: "That factory would not have been erected were it not for the present Government." I want to refute that statement of Deputy Corry's. The present Government had as much say in the starting of that factory as any youngster playing football out in Crumlin or Drimnagh or anywhere else. There is no use in Deputy Corry trying to cash-in on what other people have done. The present Government had not hand, act or part in the starting of that factory. Both these factories were started by people who knew that they would get the services which they required from the people of Youghal, and I do not want anybody to try and cash-in on what other people have done.

I remember, away back in 1932, listening to a certain Deputy addressing a meeting in the square in Youghal. It is there that political meetings are held. I listened very attentively to him. I had no idea in those far-off days that I would ever be honoured by the people of East Cork by being elected to speak for them in Dáil Éireann. I remember Deputy Corry on that occasion, in 1932, appealing for votes for the Fianna Fáil Party at the time and throwing out this crumb, or this loaf, if I may put it that way, to the people of East Cork that, if Fianna Fáil were elected to power, they would, within a period of six to 12 months, start three factories in Youghal.

Fifteen years passed. Deputy Corry's promise was never honoured and it was not until one of the finest industrialists this country has ever produced came down and sought me out—I do not mind stating that—that an effort was made to do something for that old historic town to which I have the honour to belong. That is all I shall say on that matter now. The people can draw their own conclusions. It is not my intention to cloak myself in the egotistical garb of Deputy Corry when he tries to imply that he had something to do with the establishment of every factory in East Cork.

This country is in a very, very serious position. A halt must be made to public expenditure. It is our bounden duty here—indeed, it is incumbent upon every one of us—to speak our minds and to tell the Government that the country cannot be bled any more. The country is to-day bled white by taxation. That must stop. We are promised a new Health Bill in the course of a few weeks. A Health Bill, mark you! The people are groaning under the existing burden of taxation. I trust that there will be no new imposition on them necessitating in turn a fresh Health Bill because of the strain, the anxiety and the burden such taxation must impose.

It is quite obvious to every one of us that we are living beyond our means so far as taxation is concerned. We, as a State, are spending far more than we can afford. It is all very fine to make promises at the hustings to people whose ears are open waiting to know what one will do for them. Some of us promise them nothing except that we will do our utmost to serve them to the best of our ability. Some of us are the same before, during and after elections. I have never promised my constituents in East Cork anything that I do not feel capable of fulfilling. We have got to realise now that the end of the road has been reached where taxation is concerned. I make one last earnest appeal to the Government to stop, for if it does not stop it will break everyone in the country.

The other evening I was in the House listening to theTaoiseach. He said that the present Government was in no way responsible for the financial stringency that exists to-day. Indeed, he even went further. He said he did not know that there was financial stringency. I am inclined to believe the Taoiseach when he says that he did not know. I will not go into the reasons why he does not know. There are unfortunate circumstances which one would not wish to labour, but one of the reasons why he does not know is because the members of his own Front Bench are not telling him. If he wants to know I would refer him to the Report of the Council of the Dublin Chamber of Commerce for the year 1952. I would refer him, in particular, to the speech made by Mr. Foster, the Governor of the Bank of Ireland. As reported in the Irish Independenton 24th January, 1953, Mr. Foster said:

"To suggest that the banks should take up loans or issues of stock because of doubt that the public will do so really means asking the banks to do with the depositors' money what the depositors are not prepared to do with it themselves. Apart from this, borrowing from the banks in these circumstances adds to the supply of money and is therefore inflationary, and as domestic costs and prices have already been raised through inflation to levels which are causing general anxiety, restraint in such lending becomes a duty."

That speech of Mr. Foster's was obviously inspired by the Report of the Central Bank and by the speech of the Minister for Finance when introducing his Budget here last year. If the Taoiseach wants further proof I would refer him to a Senator of his own Party, Senator Summerfield, who, speaking in the Seanad on 27th Februrary, 1953, said:

"The present trade stagnation was largely artificial, and we could get out of the doldrums if public men blew the wind of optimism into affairs."

Senator Summerfield admits there is trade stagnation. Again, in the Irish Presson 13th March of this year, Mr.Morrissey, President of the Auctioneers' Association, is reported as saying:

"The property market has been more directly and definitely hit by credit restriction and the increase in the rates of interest than most other businesses, and the value of property other than agricultural land had been seriously affected."

These should cause the Taoiseach to revise his statement that there has been no financial stringency here. I am sure my colleague, Deputy McGilligan, will go into more detail.

I have the greatest respect for Deputy Briscoe and I was amazed to hear him stating here that we have practically full employment and purporting to quote figures to prove that we have more employment, less unemployed and less emigration now than we had three years ago. Why do Deputies on the Government Benches insist on hiding their heads in the sand like so many ostriches? Let them go down the country. Let Deputy Briscoe visit Deputy Duignan's constituency in Connemara. Let him go up to West Donegal. We never had so many unemployed. We never had so much emigration. In the townland of Shes-kinroe there are 30 houses. Nine of those have been closed in the last 18 months. Yet, in face of that fact we are told that emigration has decreased. We are told there is more employment than there was three years ago. Go out into the City of Dublin and consult the unemployed there. They will tell Deputies what the position is.

Deputy Brennan asked what economies we would effect if we were in power. We would never stand for an Army of 12,000. It is ridiculous to have such an expenditure on a standing Army of 12,000. A small Army of the commando type advocated by Deputy Dillon would be much more useful to the country financially and otherwise. We would never spend £900,000 on the erection of a bus depot. Neither would we spend money, as Deputy Briscoe wants us to spend it, in repairing Dublin Castle. If I had my way I would not leave a stone standing upon a stone in that bastille of Irish history.I do not wish to say anything about the expenditure on An Tóstal. All I would say in passing is that I hope it will be a 100 per cent. success. Certainly we would never have spent £250,000 on Tulyar.

I would not say the Fianna Fáil Party were either.

The less we say about that the better. We were not obliged to go under the Whip. We would not have spent £260,000 on obsolete German trawlers to compete against the inshore fishermen of the country. We would not have gone across with £500,000 to America to enter into a commercial agreement with a transatlantic air company for the purpose of subsidising the bringing of American tourists here for An Tóstal and during the summer vacation.

These are matters in which we would have saved money and it is my opinion, whether I am right or wrong and whether I have the support of my colleagues or not, that far too much money is being spent on the Legislature of the country. I think 146 Deputies are far too many and a greater luxury than the country can afford. I do not see why this country cannot properly be legislated for by, say, 80 Deputies. I go further in regard to the Seanad; some person described it the other day as the county home of ex-T.D.s and ex-aspiring T.D.s.

The Deputy should not refer to the Seanad in that fashion.

County homes are now becoming places of luxury. I do not think I am degrading the personnel or their nomenclature by referring to them as such.

There will be more ex-T.D.s to choose from after the next election.

These are matters and places in relation to which economy could be effected. When I respectfully suggest to the Minister forFinance, a man who is dealing in almost hundreds of millions of pounds, ways in which these economies can be made, I know he will look at me and say that they are only minor matters, remarking: ad maiorem natus sum.

I did not intend to take part in this debate until I heard some of the remarks of Deputy O'Donnell and the so-called economies he would make in present circumstances. He told us he would not have a standing Army of 12,000 men. I am afraid he is very much behind the times because at one time we believed we could do with a much smaller Army, but the experience of the emergency proved that not one man less than the 12,500 could enable the Army to be mobilised efficiently in an emergency to defend the country. There is no use in talking in the manner in which Deputy O'Donnell has done. Either we must have an Army that will be efficient or no Army at all and I am afraid many of these so-called economies in regard to the Army are based on the idea that this country is not worth defending.

I did not say any such thing.

I said I am afraid that a lot of it is. I have heard it from others besides him. In spite of the sacrifices that have been made in the past we have that mentality still. Instead of saying it bluntly they propose reductions on the ground of economy. Let us have a proper Army or no Army. I have no doubt as to where I am going to stand.

We also had reference to the bus depot at Store Street. I suppose Deputy O'Donnell would be quite content to see the people queueing for ever under the elements along the quays, getting pneumonia as a number of them have. They are paying for their services and represent the only paying part of C.I.E., while the railways that have been subsidised have all these amenities for 100 years. This type of economy was suggested when the Coalition Government came into office. The result of it was that in three years no progress was made. Three years were lost by the country and no alternative whatever was put before the people.

There was laughter and criticism by the then Government in regard to the proposal to recapitalise C.I.E. by the introduction of modern diesel engines, and so forth. We know that the order was cancelled and when we had to get them a year later they were costing £10,000 more each than they would have if they had been got at the start. Now we have the board of C.I.E., nominated by the Coalition Government, telling us the only possible way to make C.I.E. pay is to provide diesel engines. In the meantime, as a result of the supposed economies of that time, the State has had to pay £11,000,000 in subsidies and now faces the cost, which should have been faced years ago, of providing this modern machinery. They have learned nothing in the years that have gone from the mess they made of the finances in the years they were in control and the deplorable state in which they left the country. There is no use in closing our eyes to it; the figures prove it. No twisting of them will get away from the fact that we got nothing worth talking about for all the expenditure during that period.

The debate on the Central Fund Bill is, I assume, a repetition of what has taken place on the Vote on Account. As the Chair is aware, I did not get an opportunity of speaking yesterday or late last night. Listening to the number of Deputies who have contributed from both sides of the House, both on the Vote on Account and the Central Fund Bill, I think the kernel of the whole debate is the number of unemployed at the present moment and the number emigrating. In the speeches delivered by the principal Parties on both sides of the House, each in turn has blamed the other for the position in which we find ourselves to-day. However, we must face the fact that both Parties had a fair and reasonable term of office. The Cumann na nGaedheal Party had 11 years in office up to 1932 and Fianna Fáil had 16 years in which they enjoyed the confident and absolute goodwill of the people.

During their terms of office verylittle was done with a view to easing emigration or bringing about an easement in unemployment. Undoubtedly, since the establishment of the State, a number of industries have sprung up, and we have been told from time to time that a number of people have secured employment in these industries. Notwithstanding that, we still find that emigration is as great to-day as ever it was over the past 50 years, and we can see no hope whatsoever of solving the problem.

I listened very carefully to the principal speakers on the Government side of the House, and I should be only too pleased if I could say that, in the course of their contributions, they offered any reasonable solution of our present problems, but they did not. I think we must face our responsibilities in this connection. The twin problems of unemployment and emigration in my estimation are the business of this House, in fact, the business of the Oireachtas as a whole. These problems are of such a magnitude that the House should face up to its responsibilities by trying to find a solution instead of having Parties blaming one another for what happened over the past 30 years. Looking at the problem as a young man, I think we shall have emigration and unemployment so long as the country remains divided. In the course of the debate very little has been said in relation to the fact that the Border is still there. While it is there we are going to have these economic difficulties. My conviction is that, until some effort is made to remove the Border and to secure a united country, we shall be faced with a crisis such as that which confronts us at present.

Having said that, I should like to place on record that, in the West of Ireland, we claim that we have been neglected by successive Governments. The only consideration we have got has taken the form of relief schemes and public assistance. So far as industrial development is concerned, Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Waterford and the principal cities and towns have got the major benefits. They have got a big slice of whatever was going.

It is rather peculiar that since Ientered this House away back in 1943 I have been listening to and reading speeches by Deputies who were here for years before I ever sought the honour of being sent in here. They always harped on the West of Ireland and talked about our culture, our language and our traditions. These attributes of the West still exist to a greater or lesser extent but nothing is being done to preserve them. From the West the great percentage of the youth emigrate year after year, and no real effort is being made in the form of industrial development to help to keep these young men and women at home notwithstanding all we hear about culture and the language in that part of the country. I have suggested a few things that might be done with that in view but little effort has been forthcoming. I cannot accept the suggestion that either Fine Gael or Fianna Fáil have a solution for these problems. I do not believe they have but it is a national problem of a magnitude which demands the attention, and in fact the absolute unity, of the whole of the Oireachtas in dealing with it.

The Minister in introducing the Vote on Account spoke of the fact that we have between 80,000 and 90,000 unemployed at present. The Opposition tried to convince us that unemployment was almost solved during their time. To me, that is so much eye-wash. It was not solved. So far as statistics and figures went, it was perhaps solved. I shall accept that emigration is on the downward trend and that a smaller number is unemployed when these facts are noticeable to the naked eye. It should not be necessary to go into statistics or to look up parliamentary records to find out how many are unemployed or emigrating. These facts should be noticeable to the naked eye and until they are I am not prepared to accept figures because these figures are largely a matter of form. We have had them constantly before this House for the last 30 years but beyond the production of the figures little more has been done.

So far as the development of industry is concerned, I happened to be down in Bangor-Erris on St. Patrick's Day.I spoke in this House when the grass meal project that is under way there now was being debated and I got severely chastised for my comments on that occasion. To see how far I was wrong or if my comments could not be justified, I made it my business to travel down there on St. Patrick's Day with a few other men who are farmers. We walked about seven or eight miles in the district and we even crossed the electric fences to examine the plots that are now cultivated. As I said on the last occasion when my comments were misrepresented, while I hope this scheme will be a success I have my doubts. I cannot see a great future in the development that is under way in that particular area. I travelled from there to Doohoma and along to Bally-castle, through some very congested districts.

In my opinion it would be much better if the money spent on draining acres of bog there were devoted to a scheme to migrate the congested tenants from the villages of Doohoma and Geesala up to the Midlands. Deputy Norton speaking last night mentioned how sparsely populated rural Ireland is. If Deputy Norton travelled over the West of Ireland, as western Deputies do, he would find that in some areas the houses are as close together as cells in a beehive. That is a fact of which my colleague, Deputy Calleary, who represents the constituency in which the areas I have mentioned are situated, is well aware.

The same remarks apply to many districts in South Mayo. If rural Ireland is sparsely populated as Deputy Norton suggests, that condition of affairs must exist principally in Munster and Leinster and if agricultural production is low in these areas it is due to the fact that the size of holdings there is in excess of the area which the landholders can reasonably manage. We find that even business people from limited companies with a view to running their businesses more efficiently. The same applies to farmers with large estates. The owners are unable to give the attention to their estates because they are too large. As they consider that the cost of labour is excessive, they take the easiest wayout by utilising these lands for the rearing of cattle, sheep, and so forth. They turn to something which does not entail much labour and which does not entail a lot of expense by way of farm wages. Of course, it means a reduction in employment.

If we are to have an increase in agricultural production, the land of Ireland must be given to the right people. If you do that you will then have the production and the cultivation of the land that you desire. The situation in my constituency and in various other parts of County Mayo is very bad from the point of view of congestion. I suppose that similar conditions exist in Donegal, Kerry, Clare, Sligo, Galway and Roscommon. The people in these counties have a similarity in regard to means of livelihood and to the size of their holdings. If the young men were given 40 or 50 acres of good arable land in the Midlands they would be glad to cultivate the land-instead of leaving it to men who have very little interest in the welfare of this State and many of whom owe their loyalties and allegiance to another country.

I was talking to some men in the village of Doohoma, North Mayo, about congestion. They were all very small farmers. I asked them if they would be prepared to migrate if they got the chance and they said that they would but that unfortunately there was little hope of their getting the chance. Because their early potato crop was ruined by black scab they said that they had no alternative but to emigrate. They predicted that if I came back to their district a month later I would find that all the men and boys had left it and that nobody remained but the old people and the very young people. That is the position that exists in my county and it is a very sorry state of affairs.

We are tired listening to Deputies on the Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael Benches trying to score debating points as to who did this, that, or the other for various sections of our people. It would make one sick to have to listen to all that and to realise, at the same time, that each Party in turn had achance of doing something to remedy the position. We have barristers, lawyers and big business people in this House. No doubt these men are very well educated in their respective spheres and no doubt also they have read a lot about agriculture. Nevertheless, if one of these men who, I may say, often take it upon themselves to locture the farmers about agriculture and about how to run a farm, were given the responsibility of cultivating a farm he would not know how to go about it. He would not know how to stand behind a plough or a tractor and he would know nothing about the land or the rotation of crops.

Deputy Dr. ffrench-O'Carroll spoke about giving the farmers a plan and a lead. I submit that too much planning and too much leading of the farmers is responsible to a great extent for the backward condition of the agricultural industry at the moment. A great help to increased agricultural production would be the provision of fertilisers. Do these barristers and lawyers and big business folk who were elected to this House by some means or other—I often wonder how—realise, when they lecture the farming community on how to run their farms, that the small farmers are unable to pay for the fertilisers which they require for their land? The price of fertilisers is much too high for the average small farmer taking into consideration the quantities which he would require to purchase.

In addition, he is short of stable manure because he cannot afford to rear the cattle to produce it. The Government should consider subsidising the price of fertilisers. I believe that nothing would tend to bring about a more rapid increase in production than the availability of cheap fertilisers. In fact, it would pay the State in the years to come to make fertilisers available now to farmers free of cost. It would enhance the whole economic make-up of this State within a very short number of years.

I listened to what Deputy McQuillan had to say about Bord na Móna and about the fact that the Government intend to make a change. At column 163 of the Official Report of Wednesday, March 11th, 1953, the Minister for Finance said:—

"At first sight, a person looking at the Estimates might think that the provision in the Industry and Commerce Estimates for semi-automatic turf production is less than last year by as much as £239,110. The gross provision for this item, however, has to be considered in relation to the credit item of receipts from sales, and on this basis the reduction is £95,360. I regret that I have to say that turf production by semi-automatic processes has not justified itself, as costs are very high and it is difficult to dispose of the finished product. A less uneconomic method of maintaining and utilising the product of labour on the smaller bogs is to be tried by erecting small turf-driven generating stations at suitable points."

We remember what happened a few years ago when the production of hand-won turf was stopped. We remember the great outcry. The people were misled as regards the actions of the then Government. If the present Government and all the Parties in this House would only face their responsibilities and recognise that these changes are brought about in the best interests of the country it would be better for all concerned.

The Minister has stated that the present Government realise that the cost of the semi-automatic production of turf is in excess of the economic price at which it can be sold and they have now decided to make a change. We should be very pleased, indeed, if the Government could maintain the production of turf in the West. After all, it provides a certain amount of employment and it helps to keep a number of families together at home. Notwithstanding the subsidy, that turf costs more, in the end, than coal. I am told by the resident medical superintendent in a mental hospital in my county that he loses a considerable sum per month by using turf to heat the hospital compared with the use of coal from Arigna. He told me that coal from the Arigna coalmines would be much more suitable for the purpose and would also be much more economic.

I am speaking from recollection, but I think he said that he is losing either£12 per month or per week by the use of turf. On the occasion of the introduction of the rates estimate in the Mayo County Council he gave us to understand that he was losing a considerable sum per year by using turf. I am very well aware that both he and the county council officials would be only too anxious to use turf but, in view of the cost, it is not economic. The fact of the matter is that the cost of producing turf is heavy and, in addition, it cannot be sold at a price which is economic, bearing in mind the cost of coal. Further, it does not give the same results as coal from the point of view of heat.

The Minister says that the Government have decided to erect small turf-driven generating stations at suitable points. He further states that he is not sure that the experiment will be a success. That is where the money is going. That is why the Budget this year will amount to £100,000,000. We agree that, to a certain extent, employment is being provided on this work, but surely the Government should be able to arrive at a rational decision instead of chopping and changing— trying this method to-day and finding it a failure and then trying another method to-morrow and so forth.

I wonder if the grass meal scheme in Bangor-Erris—which is a costly scheme—will prove to be a success. If it does not, then it will be a costly failure. I hope we shall not have to witness the spectacle of some Minister for Finance coming to this House a few years hence and informing us that his Government have decided to scrap the scheme. We are spending this money, and a great deal of other money, with one object in view—to try to provide employment at home for our young people. Seemingly, the employment will be unstable because these developments which we are undertaking are merely in the experimental stage. The semi-automatic production of turf is an example in point. That scheme is now being scrapped. If we could get the exact particulars of the sum of money voted year in and year out for the running of these semi-automatic turf production machines, I am sure we woulddiscover that it runs into thousands— and yet it has all been in vain.

The scheme is about to be changed. It is for these reasons that I wish to emphasise that there is one way out of the difficulties in the West, and that is by migrating the tenants there to Leinster or Munster. That must be done whether the Deputies of Kildare, Meath or Westmeath like it or not. The people in the congested districts of Connemara must go back to Leinster and Munster, from which they were driven, if the Government intend to provide them with a means of livelihood.

I cannot see that any permanent industry is being developed in the West of Ireland to provide employment of a substantial character, particularly for menfolk. It is more necessary to do so for men than it is for women.

The Minister spoke about the Local Authorities (Works) Act and the land rehabilitation scheme. He told us that the reduction in the Vote for the former would be offset by an increased grant of £400,000 for road construction. I have no objection to road construction. In fact, I have advocated the need of repairing our roads on many an occasion in this House and have suggested that it was one way of providing employment for our men. We must agree, however, that the proposal to spend £400,000 on the reconstruction of roads in the Gaeltacht areas is mainly for the purpose of encouraging tourists to come to those areas. I agree that tourists can be of help to the country, and are a means of providing employment in our hotels, and that when the Americans come they bring the dollars with them.

There is an aspect of this question, however, which I would like to refer to. We are all very anxious to preserve the Irish language in the Gaeltacht area. Money is voted for that purpose by the House. The fact, however, that these foreigners, Englishmen and Americans, are going into the Gaeltacht areas tends, in my opinion, to kill the language. Indeed, I have met people there who have apologised forthe fact that they are not good English speakers and hence not able to entertain foreign tourists by conversing with them, in the way they would like, in the public house or the hotel. Therefore, as I say, while we vote money for the preservation of the language, we are also voting money with a view to killing it by encouraging foreigners to go into these select areas where the language is still alive and its culture intact.

I think it would be much better if this £400,000 was spent on drainage. Small and uneconomic as the holdings in the West of Ireland are, they could be made more productive if drainage work was carried out on them. If the portions of land which are waterlogged were properly drained they could be brought into production. The Local Authorities (Works) Act cannot be separated from the land rehabilitation scheme. The Minister is trying to eliminate the former by giving £400,000 for the reconstruction of roads in the Gaeltacht areas to serve the foreigners, but he knows that he cannot justify his conduct in that connection. The Government are for ever talking about increased production. That cannot be achieved when we have a lot of our land waterlogged due to the fact that the main tributaries are blocked.

Deputy Beegan, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance, who comes from a western constituency, is well aware of the existence of the conditions I speak of, and knows the clamour there is at the present time for more drainage. I daresay drainage is one of his biggest nightmares in his present position. I am quite well aware that, if he were free to express his views on this question, he would agree with what I say, and that, if it were a Fine Gael Minister for Finance we had on the other side of the House, Deputy Beegan would be expressing views similar to mine.

The Minister also said that the increased sum to be made available for the land rehabilitation scheme will offset the reduction under the Local Authorities (Works) Act, and that those who might lose their employment on work under the latter would be provided with work at road construc-tion and on the land rehabilitation scheme. Deputy Beegan knows well that in many areas land rehabilitation work is being held up because there is a need first of all for the opening of the main tributaries and of certain important rivers. Land which is waterlogged must be cleared of water first before improvements can be carried out on it under the land rehabilitation scheme. The officers in charge in the various districts have made that plain to many people who have applied to have such improvements carried out on their land. I am quite sure that my colleagues from the West, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister, Deputy Calleary, Deputy Moran and Deputy Seán Flanagan will agree that it would be more appropriate for the Minister to spend his £400,000 on the drainage of land in the West of Ireland than on the reconstruction of roads in the Gaeltacht areas for the use of foreigners.

Deputy O'Donnell, I think, talked about the Army and the amount of money spent on it. I appreciate that we must have an Army if we are to preserve the independence of this part of the country. An Army costs money. As far as one can observe here in the City of Dublin, there seems to be a good deal of waste. One very often sees ten or 11 Army lorries travelling around with very few in them.

The Deputy is now dealing with administration.

I do not intend to go into details, but, generally speaking, one has the feeling, in connection with the Army, that there are many economies which could be effected without in any way reducing the number of men serving in it. I would not associate myself with any Deputy or group of Deputies who would attempt to reduce the strength of the Army. At the same time, I think that economies could be effected, especially when you see Army cars and lorries being driven through the city and country with perhaps only one or two persons in them. However, we will have an opportunity of going more into detail on that when the Estimate for the Department of Defence comes before the House.

I feel that this House should face up to its responsibility and agree to the setting up of the committee to carry out an investigation on the question of what can be done to find a solution for unemployment and emigration. I appreciate that, while this small island is divided, we will not get to the bottom of these two evils. We are at a stage in our political and economic history when some effort, some approach, should be made with a view to bringing about the unity of the country. In Europe and in almost every continent where these divisions exist and in certain countries parts of which are under foreign control efforts are being made to get them back under their proper administration and native government but no effort, good, bad or indifferent, is being made to reunite this country. We have a sound case to put up.

I have no doubt that if an approach were made by the responsible members of this House to the British Government a solution to the problem of Partition could be brought about. If such a solution were found, our economic situation would change in a short period of time; we could face up to our responsibility in a much better way. The level of taxation would drop considerably. There would be better means and wider scope for securing essential revenue. The heavy burden of two Governments, two armies, two groups of civil servants, two police forces, would be eliminated to a great extent.

No matter what may be said on both sides of the House in relation to unemployment, there will be from 30,000 to 50,000 unemployment for a number of years to come, the number fluctuating according to the season.

A certain amount of understanding could be obtained in this House on financial questions. The Deputies who are supposed to have studied this matter, Deputy Hickey, Deputy McGilligan, Deputy de Valera, Junior, and others, seem to indicate that a change is essential. Instead of arguing across the floor of the House, instead of debating this matter day in and day out, as has been the case since I came here, the Dáil should agree to the establishment of a committee that wouldexamine the best means to adopt in matters of finance.

There is a good deal to be said for the suggestion that has been made at one time or another by Deputy McGilligan and other Deputies on both sides of the House as to the method of financing capital development and providing money at a reasonable and cheap rate of interest. A rate of interest of 6¾ per cent. is in excess of what the ordinary man can afford. We are told that the farmer is in need of capital to develop his land, that capital is essential for increased production. That capital must be made available at a nominal rate of interest, at, as Deputy McQuillan said, the bare cost of administration. If the rate of interest is in excess of that, it would not pay to avail of the accommodation for the development of industry or the development of land, for the purchase of machinery or stock or for whatever else it may be required.

There is no use in our pointing out to Fianna Fáil that there are 90,000 unemployed and Fianna Fáil telling us that there were 60,000 unemployed when we left office. That sort of thing cuts no ice with the people. It will cut ice with the people if all Parties in the House come together to see what can be done to reduce the number of unemployed. None of us want kudos or laurels. If we can reduce unemployment, that should be sufficient. Our object should be to reduce it, nor for the purpose of statistics but so that the reduction will be noticeable.

Deputy McQuillan and others referred to afforestation. In the West of Ireland afforestation would go a long way to provide employment. No matter what Deputy McQuillan or any other Deputy may say, certain credit must be given to Deputy Blowick. He put his heart and soul into the development of afforestation. The Forestry Section is merely a section of the Department of Lands, and it is the Cinderella of that Department. There is only one Minister and there is no Parliamentary Secretary, and the Forestry Section must rely on whatever attention the Minister can give it.That is why it is, so to speak, in the background. Apart from politics, we must give credit to Deputy Blowick. During his short three years of office, having gone into the Department as a raw recruit, with little parliamentary experience, he made a good job of things. He gave afforestation a little spur forward, and to-day we find that there is more money provided for the labour content of the Forestry Division than was provided in the whole Estimate a few years back. The provision has been considerably increased.

Forestry is one important way in which suitable and permanent employment for young men could be provided in the West of Ireland. In Mayo alone there are thousands of acres that could be used for afforestation, if there were a Department dealing solely with the problem.

I admit that the establishment of a Department of Forestry would involve extra civil servants, an extra Minister, extra money, extra taxation, but it would be well worth while to establish a separate Department to deal with forestry as an important industry, as a means of absorbing labour, which, in 20 to 40 years, would create subsidiary industries.

The Dáil must face up to these matters. Deputies get no kick out of coming in here and talking about unemployment. I would be much happier and better pleased if a big proportion of the young men in the West of Ireland were in employment. I would be much happier and better pleased if I could say that things have changed, no matter what Government is in office. We are all Irishmen, sent here by the rank and file of the people, and there should be more understanding of that fact.

Deputy Seán Flanagan, my colleague from South Mayo, referred to the dope known as unemployment assistance. I do not intend to misrepresent Deputy Flanagan. He is a young Deputy. I have nothing against him. We have to face up to the position that, as there is no alternative to the dole, the dole must remain. I would not wish the Minister for Finance to intervene one way or another. In the case of a big percentage of these young men the doleis the last thing they wish to descend to but there is no alternative. I would implore the Minister and the Government to survey every possible avenue of providing employment.

About 90 per cent. of these young men, married or single, would not dream of signing on for unemployment assistance if they could secure work at reasonable wages. In the West of Ireland, in the fields of drainage, land rehabilitation, forestry, road construction, housing and the migration of tenants from congested districts, we could go a long way to ease the situation. In connection with the migration of tenants from congested districts, we have the areas round Doohoma, Geesala and Swinford, one of the most congested in the whole of Ireland. The Swinford Union is one of the poorest unions in Ireland. The people there could be migrated to the Midlands. I do not mind what Deputies from the midland counties say. If they do not like it, they will have to put up with it. That was our land, from there we came, we were hunted out of it and we are entitled to get a share of it back. All that would help to ease the situation there.

I know that we are carrying out drainage at the present time and that the arterial drainage scheme is under way, but it is moving very slowly. The cleaning of the Corrib-Claredalgan has not started yet; the Moy is not progressing rapidly. I also suggest that these things be speeded up with a view to providing employment. There is the Local Authorities (Works) Act, land rehabilitation and afforestation. These schemes would provide employment and if we do not use them it is only natural that C.I.E. would go bankrupt, because there are no passengers to be carried and there is no merchandise to be brought on rail. All the people are going from the West of Ireland and soon there will be no one left there. There is not a village in Mayo to-day where you will not find nine or ten houses with their doors closed, their windows barred and grass growing on the window sills. That is getting worse day by day and it is not because of any change of Government.

When are we going to arrest that,and how? Not by criticising one another across the floor of the House, not by accusing one or other Parties of being guilty of this, that or the other. We are going to arrest it in one way only, the provision of suitable, decent and secure employment under decent wages and conditions. I submit that that can be found in the West of Ireland. The West of Ireland is undeveloped; it has been neglected for centuries, and the regrettable fact is that it has been neglected by successive native Governments who have, time after time, given sops to keep them quiet. Time after time they have made certain suggestions, but that is as far as they have gone, with a view to bringing about any amelioration in the conditions.

I must put it to the House that at the present there is very little respect forthcoming from the people in the West of Ireland for an Irish Government. They must face facts, and they have come to the conclusion that we have no interest in their affairs and that there is no hope, that the only way is for them to get out. Unless we rise to the occasion and forget the Party differences and face facts, get the work speeded up and provide the essential capital to enable these works to get under way, the outcome will be that you will have a falling population. Small as the holdings are, they will become untenanted—and they are becoming untenanted even now—and the people will go to Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Great Britain and America. That is the ultimate end of a big percentage of the people leaving the West of Ireland. The young men and women are going and whole families are leaving also, because they see no future.

I admit quite frankly that the standard of living for the people in the West has changed. There are family allowances and widows' and orphans' pensions, and the old poverty which existed when I was a boy does not exist to-day. But the population has fallen and the villages where there were 30 or 40 houses have now only 20. There are doors closed up and that is a bad sign. The schools are closing. When I was a boy there were twice as many schools. One-half has been pulleddown—fine national schools. There is only half the number of pupils and, in some places, even less. These things indicate something radically wrong and the Government is not facing up to the facts or does not realise the situation.

I have not gone into any highbrow language but have dealt with this in a way which ordinary men and women can understand. I have tried to put the facts clearly before the Government, and if they are not prepared to listen now to those facts the day will come when they will be prepared to listen, when it will be too late to listen to them.

It is very refreshing to hear Deputy Cafferky attacking impartially both sides of the House. It is noticeable that there is a growing feeling amongst independent people, not only in the House but outside it, that we have to get away from the age-old bitter conflict between Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael that has gone on since 1922, and that it is about time it came to an end.

Deputy Cafferky tried to advocate some new approach to our social and economic problems and for that he ought to be complimented. I feel that the note he struck and the note struck by Deputy McQuillan and other members of the House is being re-echoed widely throughout the country. The people of Ireland do not want Fine Gael as an alternative to Fianna Fáil, whatever dissatisfaction there may be in regard to certain matters. There is a strong feeling in the nation that Fine Gael has nothing whatever to offer by way of solution to our problems. I think Deputy Cafferky was right in suggesting that in the intensification of agriculture throughout the length and breadth of Ireland lies our greatest hope. By the intensification of tillage and the intensification of live-stock raising, we get the last ounce of productivity from every inch of our land, and in that way we can hope to keep the land in continuing fertility and to maintain an increasing population at a higher standard of living.

I am glad that Deputy Cafferky referredto these matters and I do not think I would be unkind to him if I say, on his reference to the failures with regard to land division and other governmental matters, that he, as a member of a small Party or a supporter of a small Party, had a direct representative in the inter-Party Government, and I hope he tried to prod the representative into doing something worthwhile. Apparently his prodding did not have any great effect. I was in a somewhat similar position. As an Independent Deputy, I too had a representative in the inter-Party Government and I tried to prod him into doing something for agriculture, but his reaction was to dissolve the Dáil and go to the country, in the hope that he would eliminate Deputy O'Reilly and myself and other Independent Deputies.

Like the cuckoo who destroys his foster brothers and sisters, Deputy Dillon set out, when he got into power, to destroy his fellow Independents. He did succeed in destroying some of them, amongst them, unfortunately, being one of the best representatives in this House, Deputy O'Reilly, but he did not succeed completely and the net result was that he destroyed himself and the Government of which he was a member.

I am altogether in favour of increased capitalisation not only of agriculture but of every other productive enterprise in the State. We have heard a lot over the past four years about the capital investment programme, as if it were something that one political Party had discovered, something which was never known before and which was discontinued when they went out of office. I asked a question recently as to how much money was spent on capital development and I was informed that, in 1948-49, the Government spent, or invested, which is the more correct word, £13.6 million; in 1949-50, £25.7 million; in 1950-51, £26.5 million, and in 1951-52, £41.2 million, showing that in the last year there was a very steep increase in the amount of capital investment in national enterprise. This, of course, included land improvement, afforestation, electrical developmentand all these other enterprises which are of value to the nation.

It is interesting to note also that, since 1942—I think that was the year the land reclamation scheme was first introduced—there has been a steady increase in the volume of money expended on such work. Starting modestly in 1942 with an expenditure of £188,000, expenditure went up in 1945-46 to £318,000, and, in 1949-50, a sum of £228,000 was invested in the land rehabilitation project, which was a new name for land improvement or farm improvement. In 1950-51 that amount was increased to £500,000; last year it went up to £1,500,000, and I believe that the expenditure for the present year, which is not complete, will be considerably higher. There, again, we have a progressive increase in expenditure on work of national development.

That is the kind of thing that is welcome and desirable, and I do not think it serves any useful purpose for one Party to blame the other with regard to matters of this kind. It would be far better if both Parties would co-operate in trying to ensure that not only is that money expended in capital investment of a productive nature increased from year to year, but that it is spent to the very best advantage.

I listened with some contempt and disgust, as one who understands the matter and has a practical knowledge of it, to the unholy uproar made in regard to the sale of some of the land reclamation machinery to contractors. I have seen contractors working and I have seen Department officials working on land reclamation, and I would say that a contractor will get at least twice as much value out of the machinery as the Department.

The Deputy is now going into administration.

It is foolish to be building up these futile arguments designed to discredit the Government which happens to be in power, designed to try to get them out, if possible, and to put back into power a Party which has no intention of doing as much in regard to national development work.The hope is that an alternative Party will get back on the crest of a wave of abuse, misrepresentation and distortion of facts, and, having got back, will proceed again to misrepresent the position and do nothing more about it. For many years I was angered by the frequent attempts of my representative in the inter-Party Government to compare agricultural progress under his régime with progress in the year 1947. I knew that that line of argument was so unspeakably dishonest that it simply made my blood boil to hear a responsible Minister in charge of an important Department trying to get away with fraudulent and lying propaganda of that kind. I frequently drew his attention to the fact that, while he quoted the volume of agricultural output for 1947, he flatly refused to refer to the volume of agricultural output for 1945.

This does not seem to be related to the Second Reading of the Central Fund Bill.

I think it is necessary to show that we ought now to turn our backs upon that fraudulent approach to national problems. We ought to get a little more honesty and sincerity in regard to these matters. Every Deputy who has spoken to-day has stressed the fact that agricultural output has not increased, that, because it is no higher than it was pre-1938 and very much lower than that of comparable agricultural countries, we cannot have the standard of living for our people that we all desire.

I believe that the Government must consider taking steps in regard to agriculture similar to those which have been taken in Great Britain. There, organised farmers are consulted on every question in regard to agricultural development and progress—price fixation and everything else. A similar body should be set up here—a council representative of all agricultural associations which would be recognised by the Government as representative of agriculture and consulted by the Government on all questions relating to the improvement of agriculture. One of the schemes for which I claim some credit was the scheme for lime and fertiliser creditsand I hope the Government will push forward with that scheme and have it availed of to a wider extent than at present because it does make for the improvement of the land and a greater output from the soil.

I do not think there is anything to be gained by the campaign of denunciation that we have heard from certain members of the Opposition in regard to governmental policy. I have examined the governmental policy carefully as an Independent Deputy and whenever I found I could approve of it, I supported it, and whenever I disapproved, I voted against it. Sometimes when I found myself in the Opposition lobby of the House I found the lobby was very sparsely populated. The fact that the main Opposition Parties—I do not include the Clann na Talmhan Party or the Independent Deputies who sometimes vote with the Opposition—have talked for days and days in regard to the whole question of national expenditure and national policy and have never yet made any constructive suggestion is ample evidence that they are not serious about the welfare of the State. I think there is a vast amount of reform waiting to be achieved if there is goodwill and support for that policy and if it is not misrepresented and misconstrued.

If the Government sets out to ensure economies, I hope they will not be subjected to a violent attack and misrepresentation for so doing. If they set out to provide money for worthwhile purposes such as improving the remuneration of some of the lower paid civil servants, I hope they will not be attacked by the Opposition for asking money for that purpose and for asking that the money be provided out of taxation. Nobody, not even the members of the Opposition, will suggest that we can borrow money to pay our State officials. If it is found possible to improve the position of badly paid civil servants, I hope the Opposition will go all out to support the proposals for the provision of the money for that purpose.

I was surprised to see that they would not support the proposals tosecure greater efficiency in the Civil Service with a view to ensuring some economies in general administration. That, I think, is something which is long overdue, but last night all the leading members of the Opposition got up to attack a proposal designed to investigate expenditure.

Who attacked it?

I would like to tell Deputy McGilligan that Deputy Dillon, his distinguished colleague who has now been absorbed by the Fine Gael Party, did so.

The Deputy talked about all the lawyers attacking it. The Deputy said all the lawyers attacked it.

I said the leaders. The leaders of the Fine Gael Party attacked it.

All the leaders attacked it?

I said leaders.

All the leaders?

I said leaders. I do not think there ought to be any confusion because most of the leaders are lawyers. That is the cause of the downfall of Fine Gael over the years. If they had more honest men, more businessmen and more farmers among their numbers and less members of the legal profession I think they would do better.

We are discussing the Second Reading of the Bill.

I am afraid Deputy McGilligan dragged me away from the point I was going to make, Deputy McGilligan, and mainly the other lawyer members of Fine Gael frequently declared that everything in this State would be beautiful if it was not for certain discouraging and gloomy speeches made by certain members of the Government. If Deputy McGilligan examines his conscience he will discover that no such gloomy speeches were made by any member of the present Government. He never quoted these speeches in the House. The speeches never showed any indication of gloom or of lack of confidence in the future of this country.

The speeches of Deputy McGilligan before he went out of office when introducing his Vote on Account and his last Budget were speeches which offered no hope whatever to the country. They were speeches which told us that the deficit in our balance of payments was growing, that expenditure on consumer goods was increasing and that we were, in fact, eating too much, drinking too much and consuming too much.

I never said that.

The Deputy should go back and read his own speeches.

Will the Deputy quote? On a point of order. I think it is the rule that if something is imputed which is denied by a Deputy there must be a quotation. I deny I ever said that the people were eating too much.

The Deputy denies that he made that statement. Deputy Cogan should withdraw the remark.

I can assure Deputy McGilligan that I quoted his statement in this House.

I asked for the quotation.

I want to make the matter clear. Deputy McGilligan denied he made the statement. The Deputy must withdraw the remark.

I withdraw the remark. I have quoted Deputy McGilligan's statement——

The Deputy is repeating what Deputy McGilligan denied.

I have quoted the statement which he made that we were consuming too much in this country, that we were importing too many consumer goods. Now Deputy McGilligan says that he did not mean we were eating too much.

You said I said that. That is an untruth.

No, no. I quoted Deputy McGilligan's speech and it is on the records of this House.

Again I must protest. The Deputy is persisting in saying the things he imputed to me. I deny them.

There should be a definite, clear-cut withdrawal.

I am withdrawing the remark. Deputy McGilligan or Deputy Dillon never withdrew——

Deputy Cogan has withdrawn the statement, and he will have to pass from that.

Over and over again we heard the statement made. At a recent debate on agriculture in the National University I heard the statement made by Deputy Dillon that a certain Minister said the people of Ireland were eating too much. No Minister ever made that statement, as we all know. Yet that accusation has been made again and again against certain Ministers and has never been withdrawn. I was astonished, amused and amazed to see, after Deputy Dillon made that statement in the university, a prominent official of the Department of Agriculture got up and described Deputy Dillon as a gombeen man. A gombeen man is not a person who is held in very high repute. If that was the reaction of a State official——

The Deputy is drawing this discussion on the Second Reading of the Bill very far as to what may be discussed. I am asking him—I have done so on several occasions before—to deal with matters related to the Second Reading of the Central Fund Bill, 1953. I hope the Deputy will come to that now.

We are providing for expenditure in this Bill to carry us over the next three or four months. Having made that provision, I hope that we will get more co-operation from the Opposition Parties in that policy of national improvement and development designed to provide a better income and a better future for our people.

Deputy Caffery referred to afforestation. I was pleased to note that over the last year the area of land under afforestation has been doubled. I was also pleased to note, being a representative of a constituency in which a good deal of afforestation is carried on, that over the last year employment in afforestation increased by over 1,000. It is a hopeful sign that efforts are being made to build up the things which are essential and to cut out waste. Every Deputy who has spoken has deplored the necessity for the dole. I hope that in the coming months a real attempt will be made to ensure that employment will be further increased. I heard the Taoiseach's statement that employment in industry and employment generally in this country has been increased over the last year, notwithstanding the fact that the number of people on the dole has also increased. That, of course, is almost inevitable and has gone on over the years; there has been a steady growth of employment, and from time to time a very great increase in the number of unemployed.

The increase in the number of unemployed may be related to the number emigrating. It is true that unemployment was at a low ebb in 1950. but in that year emigration had jumped up to the unprecedented figure of 41,000, thereby showing that there is a relationship between the number of people who are exported out of this country and the number who are unemployed here. You can reduce the figure of unemployment drastically by increasing emigration, but that is no solution of the problem. We who desire the welfare of this nation must seek to cut down unemployment, and at the same time cut down emigration, and the only way to do that is by the progressive employment of Irish money in agriculture and in industry.

I was glad to see from the recent report on unemployment that there has been a certain improvement in some branches of industrial development, particularly in the textile and clothing industry and in distribution. That is the beginning, I think, of an improvement on the period of recession which occurred last year. That recessionin trade and commerce was almost inevitable, following as it did upon the increase in imports and the stockpiling by shopkeepers and individual citizens. If people set out one year to buy large quantities of goods in anticipation of a war situation, then we can expect, whether the war situation develops or not, that the purchase of goods will decline in the following year. That is inevitable and nobody need try to make political capital out of it. In the same way, if a farmer or a small businessman has some friend who hands him out a large sum of money each year to spend as he thinks fit, that farmer or businessman will be comparatively prosperous for a year or two when he is spending that money, but when the person ceases to hand over the money to him there will be comparative stringency.

During the period ending April, 1951, Uncle Sam was handing out large sums of money to this nation. He was handing out dollars at the rate of over 60,000,000 per year. Suddenly, in April 1951, Uncle Sam decided to cut off that allowance to his friends here and, within three weeks after the cutting off of that allowance, Deputy McGilligan decided to dissolve the Dáil and to go to the country. There was, I think, some relationship between the termination of Marshall Aid and the flight to the country by the inter-Party Government in the following months.

That is as true as some of your earlier statements.

I am glad you admit it is true. I suppose Deputy McGilligan has a rather guilty conscience. He may not be altogether to blame, because he had a rather miscellaneous number of Parties to escort.

I never described you as that when you were supporting us.

You should have described some of them in that way. I hope Deputy McGilligan will refrain from interruptions, because I have a few points to make which are of importance. National expenditure is running at an unprecedentedly high figure—nobody denies that—and an effort must be made to bring about some reduction in that expenditure. The only means I can see by which we can make any economies is by reducing to some extent the personnel employed by the State. That does not mean throwing anybody out of work, but I think there ought to be a restriction on recruitment for the Civil Service. We cannot go on expanding the Civil Service and at the same time expanding the staffs of our local authorities at the rate we have been doing.

Deputy Norton went down to O'Connell Street last week and posed as an overworked and underpaid civil servant. I do not think Deputy Norton is constitutionally the type of person who would ever be described as overworked, nor do I think that he has been underpaid, or if his salary were cut down to one penny per year that he would be underpaid.

Is it in order for a Deputy to describe another Deputy as not worth a penny a year from the point of view of work?

If that statement is not in order, I hasten to withdraw it.

Does the Deputy withdraw it?

Is the statement withdrawn?

The statement is withdrawn.

It should never have been made.

If you worked one-tenth as hard you would be all right.

The question of Deputy Norton as a worker does not arise on this Bill.

Deputy Corish suggested that I did not work as hard as Deputy Norton and I am entitled to reply to that. While denouncing with unmeasured violence what Deputy Norton claimed to be the inadequate rates at which civil servants are remunerated he refused or failed to offer any suggestions as to how additional moneycould be found in order to increase the incomes of these people. That is a measure of his dishonesty, if you like. That shows his lack of energetic application to the problem.

I believe we could improve the position of a number of State employees without adding to the ratepayers' burden at all if we were prepared to carry out a reorganisation of the existing staffs and make the necessary reductions. It is along those lines we ought to be thinking.

The young people who find employment in the State service year after year present a big problem. It is a problem to which the members of the Government and the Opposition should direct their attention. Young people are leaving the primary and secondary schools every year and coming out to seek employment. It is the duty of all Parties to co-operate together in an effort to ensure that employment will be forthcoming for these. One cannot work miracles in order to achieve that. It is only by steady and sustained effort on the part of all concerned that we can increase our agricultural, industrial and other productive enterprises so that the necessary employment will be forthcoming.

So long as there is a smear campaign against every national enterprise and so long as every national enterprise is ridiculed by those seeking office, so long will there be a lack of progress in national life. We are altogether too critical of any man who makes an effort to improve himself, his village, his town or his country. We are inclined to condemn and ridicule such a man and that ridicule comes more particularly from able, and perhaps brilliant, men who find themselves out of office and who are anxious to exploit every grievance in order to scramble back into office where they will do as little, or perhaps even less, than they did before.

If we had another approach the position would be much happier. If we had every effort to improve this nation commended and supported by all we would make some headway. I said last year that the immediate fields in which increased employment and production could be achieved are turf, tillage andtourism. These are the fields in which we can reap an immediate return. It is absolutely essential that everybody should make that effort. In the last three weeks I have seen the farmers in Wicklow making a tremendous effort in setting the land with crops for the coming year. Wherever that effort shows itself it should be commended and supported.

I had occasion here to condemn the efforts made to sabotage the growing of beet last year. I am glad to know that the acreage is increasing this year. The wheat acreage is also increasing. Tillage generally, as far as one can judge, is going up. I hope that any difficulty experienced in regard to the sale of turf will be overcome so that we can increase production in that direction. Any well-produced turf is as good as, indeed it is superior to, any imported fuel. Turf can be produced cheaper than any imported fuel.

Despite what Deputy McGilligan and his colleagues said about wheat and peat and beet, the production of these commodities is increasing. These commodities can be produced here economically and efficiently. There is an almost unlimited market within the country provided we protect and utilise that market to its fullest extent.

Let us get away now from the lawyer's approach to national problems. Let us get down to the business— man's, the farmer's and the worker's approach. Let us tell the Government that, in any efforts they make to provide increased employment, whether it is by the investment of money in industrial enterprises or in the improvement of the land, they will receive 100 per cent. support from every section here. If the Government gets that assurance they can go ahead, and, if they fail to do everything that can be done and should be done, they will have no one to blame but themselves.

It is time to get away from the sniping attitude, from the non-constructive attitude which has inspired the main Opposition Parties over the last two years. I was referring, whenDeputy McGilligan interrupted me, to the charge levelled against the present Government, a charge that most members of the Opposition know is without foundation. It is the charge that the Government is responsible for the present recession in trade and industry and the increase in the cost of money because of the rate of interest at which they borrowed last year. It is only right to point out that their predecessors found great difficulty in raising money at the rate of interest they offered.

It must be remembered, too, that they had the advantage of American aid, and they availed of that aid. I am not blaming them for doing so, but when they condemn the present Government because of the high rate of interest they are paying on the money they borrowed, they must bear in mind that they themselves committed the Irish people to an even higher rate of interest for the money they borrowed from the United States, and 13 years hence this country will be paying $9,000,000 per year to the United States in respect of that loan. Every year for the next 30 years they will be paying very substantial amounts, reaching, in due course, a maximum of $9,000,000 a year. That will have to be paid in dollars, and these dollars will have to be earned by the export of goods. That means that, for many years to come, our agriculture and our industry will be working to a great extent to produce goods for export to the United States to the tune of $9,000,000 per year.

Realising the high rate of interest the previous Government agreed to pay for the money they borrowed we should not be too harsh now in our condemnation of the rate of interest the present Government must pay. We must appreciate that the interest on money borrowed within the country, particularly when it is borrowed in small sums from small investors, goes into circulation amongst the people, is spent by them and thereby produces a certain amount of revenue for the Exchequer. On the other hand, the $9,000,000 we will have to send to the United States will produce no income whatsoever for us. It is a dead loss to the community.In view of that fact we should hear less condemnation now by the Opposition of the existing rate of interest that the Government has to pay.

I am not satisfied that everything has been done that ought to be done to bring down rates of interest generally. That is why I have suggested that a committee of inquiry should be set up to inquire into banking and credit with a view to seeking out some means by which we can secure money at a lower rate of interest for work of national development. I hope that if that committee is set up, Deputy McGilligan, Deputy Hickey, Deputy O. Flanagan and other advocates of monetary reform will be appointed on that committee and will be in a position to cross-examine the directors of the Central Bank, the members of the Banks' Standing Committee and other people who may seek to defend the present rate of interest. I hope as a result of that investigation some means will be found to bring down the cost of money and to make money more freely available for agricultural and industrial development.

I would like to know what the Opposition have to say to that proposition. Will they support that motion when it comes before the House? I would like also to know what the Government have to say about it. It was tabled by myself without consultation with any Party in this House and I am hoping it will receive fair consideration.

I want to start by complimenting Deputy Cogan on the speech he has just made. Miserable, cringing and whining though it has been, it was an improvement on last year when he was prostrate before the Government yielding adoration to them. To-day he has a certain amount of scrupulous doubt about their conduct. He is full of contempt for somebody in this House; he has more contempt, I suppose, in his person than any other member of this House. He has plenty to give away because there has been a great deal of contempt attracted to him by his conduct over the last couple of years.

Wait until the people get you down in Wicklow.

I hope we can get there.

Wait until the people get you in Baltinglass.

Let Deputy McGilligan continue his speech.

I want to deal with the Deputy before he goes. In a sense the atmosphere of the House is better when he leaves. While he is still here may I say that he is offering himself, so to speak, as a possible bait to which some political hook may fasten to drop him into some area with the possibility that they may get a few votes. For one type of fishing the best bait is a worm and unless he collapses his wrigglings Deputy Cogan will find himself placed in that category.

Let us get back to the Central Fund Bill.

I find it very hard to speak with any sense of realism, having heard the speeches in the House. There has been an improvement since last year. Deputy ffrench-O'Carroll criticised the Government in regard to the Budget because it was too hard although he supported it last year. It would not have been anything like as hard were it not for Deputy ffrench-O'Carroll's support. Deputy Browne thinks there have been very severe hardships caused to the people through the Budget. He also was a supporter of it. Deputy Sheldon comes in here with his malodorous little red herring about a committee so that he can paddle back to Donegal and say:—"Even though I voted for cutting the subsidies last year, if the Government accept my motion about economies we can expect some progress". As a result he may find himself sitting in some committee as one of 17 people and everything will be all right.

People in this House know very well there is an odour of decay about it at the moment. The shadows of political disintegration are moving definitely over this House. I heard a Deputy speaking here this morning and I had to inquire what his name was. I know very well that I am not going to see him here after the next election. Ilook at 25 people sitting in those benches who are the future orphans of the coming political storm.

Are you worried?

I am not worried. As was said by a colleague of mine, the people are not concerned in this House about the death of the Government, they are only anxious about the date of the funeral. I have heard Deputy Byrne speak in this House. He must be a source of annoyance and a nuisance to all the people on that side of the House. In the bye-election he fought which brought him to this House, we were told Fianna Fáil put up one of the best candidates they ever had in the city. He got less than a third of the votes.

There was only one other election in this country since the subsidy cut came into full operation and that was in relation to the representative for the National University in the Seanad. Again there was put a man who was billed as being a doctor, first of all, head of the Irish Medical Association and, therefore, likely to attract the medical votes of the National University voters. He was presented doubtfully, I think, as a member of the G.A.A. He used to play soccer in my time. He was presented as an adherent of the I.R.A. When I knew him he was an ex-British military officer. Notwithstanding all that he was paraded in this attractive guise before the people; but he stood on the touch-line having been removed from the contest when the last two people contested the final vote and Dr. John Cunningham succeeded as a Senator in the place of the late Senator Mrs. Concannon and the runner-up was an adherent of Deputy MacBride's Party. It is that thought that is casting a chill over this House. We all know the House is doomed to destruction and that when we walk to the polls at the next general election there will be a fine crop of ex-T.D.s with which to pack the next Seanad.

The Vote on Account last year which led up to the Budget are the reasons that are in the background for thispolitical calamity that is likely to befall the Fianna Fáil Party. This time last year we had the Vote on Account and then we were hurried—and "hurried" is the word—to a Budget. This Budget which inflicted great hardships on the people, was brought in on the basis that the people of this country were too well off. That was the phrase that Deputy Cogan seemed to query the use of, but that was not the phrase that was used. The term that was used by the Minister for Finance was that the increase in personal income has gone beyond the increase in the cost of living and, therefore, on that basis the Government had come to the conviction that the subsidies could be removed at least in part. That was the phrase—indeed it was the proper phrase—throughout the whole debate as saying the people were too well off, and it was accepted as the proper gloss to put on it.

This year, it is going to be hard for even the most brazen Minister for Finance to come in with proposals for further cuts on the basis that the people are too well off. During the year a White Paper was produced with regard to the proposals for the improved and extended health services. In the second paragraph of that we get a definition that used to be the definition of a person who was slightinly described in the old days as a pauper. We use a more moderate term nowadays, "people who are destitute", that is, people who are unable to provide by their own industry, or other lawful means, medical, surgical or dental treatment for themselves or for any other persons whom they are liable under the Act to maintain. We are told that the estimated number of people who are availing of that service is one-third of the population. One million out of our 3,000,000 people are at the point where they are destitute in the sense of that definition— that they are not able by their own industry or work to provide necessary medical services for themselves.

If 1,000,000 are using that service, how many are there in the destitute class? I do not presume that the whole of the people who are unable to provide medical services for themselvestook ill during the year, but supposing we have two-thirds who had the impact of sickness on them so that they had to get free medical service. That means that 1,500,000 of our population are on the level of the destitution mark by that definition. Is that what we have come to, after 1916 and the days leading up to 1921 and the alternations of Government—that about 1,500,000 of population are classified as people who cannot pay for necessary medical services for themselves? Those are the people in respect of whom members of this House voted, while they had in view giving them free medical services last year, to increase the price of their tea, their bread, their sugar, their drink and their tobacco.

Under the Bill which is coming forward to carry out the proposals contained in this White Paper, the people are divided into a lower income group and a middle income group. Who are the middle income group? People who rise as high as the £600 a year emolument and that £600 a year is a family emolument. Statistics given here recently show that £1 now, as compared with 1938 values, is worth only about 9/-.

A Deputy

8/-

8/-. The person whose family emolument is £600 has now an income equal to only £240 pre-war. Such persons, we are told, are in the midddle income group and not at all in the category of destitute people who have got to get free medical services because of their own industry or other lawful means they cannot provide these things for themselves.

Those who support this Government find it impossible to pay the award of an arbitration board which the members of the Government allowed to be set up and, by allowing it to be set up, certainly there was a guarantee to any thinking person, any honest person, that the award would be met. They find it impossible to provide the money. A question was asked here recently and drew the reply that 86 per cent. of 36,000 civil servants we have in the State did not rise above the salary of £5 10s. per week. That £5 10s., again using the standard of 9/- to the £ ascompared with pre-war values, is now worth only 50/-. Eighty-six per cent. of the 36,000 are in receipt of a wage, which measured in terms of 1938-39 values, is worth only £2 10s. per week. Yet the State cannot afford to meet the arbitrator's award, the arbitrator having been chosen by an agreement of the staff themselves and of the Government.

Our standard of life has, I suppose, to be regarded as increased by the introduction to this country of the great Tulyar. The standard of living will certainly not have to rise very much, even for the 1,500,000 people on the destitution line, to put them in a position which, if measured in terms of money, will be much higher than that of the 86 per cent. of the civil servants with their present pay of about £5 10/-per week which, measured in terms of 1938-39 values, is 50/- per week. Tulyar may be a great acquisition to this country if he serves only to show up the way in which humans are treated, as compared with what is permitted and thought to be normal for a valuable animal.

Last year, as I say, the Budget was framed on the basis that the Government were satisfied that incomes had generally advanced more than the cost of living and that therefore subsidies should be cut, and subsidies were cut. In this debate the cry has been repeated, in a parrot-like way, that those who complain of the Budget restrictions and hardships have avoided indicating how relief might be granted. We, in this House, indicated last year our view that taxation has been imposed which was unnecessary and we put the figure of overtaxation at £10,000,000. The events that have happened since have justified that claim of ours. May I put the matter as simply as I can to this House, because it is always difficult to get an understanding about these figures? When a Minister frames his Budget proposal, he is subject to possible fluctuation from any of three sources. His revenue may prove better than was estimated. That was generally the situation in my time. On the other hand, it may prove worse. We have been told by those who appeared against the Civil Serviceat the arbitration board that the Estimates have been very definitely exaggerated although properly made, that revenue was not coming up to the Estimate, and that it was going to be very much below it.

The second thing that might complicate the Estimates of the Minister for Finance in his Budget are Supplementary Estimates. Within the year just coming to a close Supplementary Estimates aggregating £9,250,000 were introduced. If revenue is not yielding as much as it was thought it would, and if £9,250,000 extra of Supplementary Estimates were brought in towards the end of the year, is it not clear that it has been found, unless it is going to be found by deficit, because of the padding in the original Estimates? If at this time of the year the country is to take it that a new £9,250,000 can be brought in in the last month of the financial year, without a corresponding demand made on the taxpayer, unless, as I say, the Government is going to run into a deficit, the £9,250,000 must be coming from somewhere. We said last year that between overestimation of expenditure and underestimation of the revenue there was £10,000,000 of hidden taxation that was unnecessary.

I believe that events have proved that to be the case. Remember, the revenue is not running so far below at all. In the last three weeks about £6,000,000 has come in. That represents an average of about £2,000,000 a week. At the moment the revenue is £91,250,000. We have two weeks and a bit to go from the time that estimate was brought in. Certainly, £5,000,000 should have come in during that period and that would mean a revenue of £96,250,000. What we looked for was £97,750,000. Despite all the moaning and wailing about the reduced revenue and about how the Estimates had been falsified, unless there will be a greater carry-over than last year—secretly made—the worst the revenue will be down will be by £1,750,000. That is the position, despite all the moaning and wailingand the refusal, so far, to act on the Civil Service arbitration award.

Were we not quite right in thinking, as we thought last year when the Budget was introduced, that the revenue would be much greater? Nobody foresaw the business depression. Nobody foresaw the amount of unemployment. Nobody foresaw the short-time employment. It was feared— but, in any event, the Estimates were on the basis that there would still be the same purchasing power in people's hands. It was not expected that there would be a cut from full wages to the dole or from full wages to half-wages. It was expected that the people would have the same moneys to spend as they had in the previous year. It was expected that trade would be good and that there would be the same buoyancy as there was during the years 1948, 1949, 1950 and 1951. If there had been a normal year, is it not quite clear that the revenue would have exceeded the Estimate? We felt that the same favourable conditions could again be expected. That forecast has been falsified by the turn of events. The Government did not realise the harm they were doing to the community—and particularly to the business community—by their clumsy handling of affairs in the Budget last year. In any event, the revenue was not going to be achieved. We were told that if £9,250,000 were substracted there was still £98,000,000 to be looked for.

We were told that the revenue would bring in £97,750,000—that is, without touching subsidies or social security payments at all. Where is the Minister finding the money for the £9,250,000? If the answer will be that part of that £9,250,000 has already been thought of in the Budget, then may I ask how much was not thought of? I submit that at least £4,500,000 to £5,000,000 was not thought of. Where is that £5,000,000 to come from? Is it not quite clear that the Estimates of expenditure were padded out fiercely last year and that we were right when we said, looking forward—and with things being normal—that, either through increased revenue or through economy on the expenditure side, the Government would get £10,000,000? But that meant £10,000,000 exaction from the publicthat should never have been made on them.

The Government have a fortnight to go. Are they going to run a deficit? If they think of doing that, then let them read all the things they said, and falsely said, about the deficits which they alleged I had in my last Budget. I do not think the Government will run a deficit. They have not looked for new revenue. It is down only a little bit. Where did they get the money for the supplementary services which are, to within a few hundred pounds, the same as the capital services which they said—I think falsely—they had subtracted from their arrangements last year? The people can ponder on that before the 31st March comes along but it shows up the fact that the calculations we made last year were properly made and that, instead of disproving what we said, events are proving up to the hilt our forecast for a full year ahead.

The difficulty with regard to last year's Budget was fairly clear. The Budget could have been stopped at that point. Suppose the Estimates had properly been scrutinised. If the likely economies or, possibly, the fraudulent items put in on the Estimates side had been pruned out and the economies allowed for, then that Book of Estimates—instead of standing at £94,000,000 odd—could have been presented as at £84,000,000. Then, with the subtraction of the capital services, the revenue—without any additions from beer, tobacco, spirits or anything else—was running at about £2,000,000 more than what was required. Of course, the difficulty that then faced the members of the Government was how the social security payments were to be presented. It would not do to have a Budget that was balanced at every point—and with a couple of million pounds over—and then to have to speak of social security payments and in the end, boldly and nakedly, to say to the people:—"We are finding these social security payments out of your bread, butter, sugar and tea"— because that is what has been done.

Those people who may pride themselves on the increase in social services must also remember the other side tothe story. The Government found the money for this—and £1,000,000 more— from the cuts in the subsidies. The Government's action in regard to cutting the subsidies had to be justified so as not to appear to be too inhuman—and that justification was along the lines that the people were too well off, that their incomes had risen more than the cost of living and that, therefore, the Government could take a bite here and there. There were cuts in the subsidies and millions were exacted from the public. I will leave out income-tax and petrol but there was £5,500,000 from tobacco, £2? million from beer and £1,000,000 from spirits. That, added to the £6,668,000 gross which the savings and subsidies were to bring in, gave, of course, plenty of money, not merely for the increases arising from the Social Insurance Bill, but also, possibly, for what had to be found under the health legislation before the new thought struck the Government of off-loading the greater part of the costs under the health scheme to the local authorities. There is the plan! Make the Estimates: blow them up: inflate them on the expenditure side and diminish your hope of revenue. You can prune the Estimates later, if your revenue happens to be greater than it should have been.

If there had not been the disaster of the past year, the Government this year would have been in the position of being able to give great remissions of taxation and of trying to sweeten the people again. Or else they could have had the plan which, I suggest, was the plan of last year—to hide what had happened once more, to stop money getting into circulation through the policy that the inter-Party Government had adopted and furthered, the policy of capital development, the policy of spending money on the schemes that we found suitable for the application of such moneys.

The only other thing that was mentioned in the Budget was the playing up of the position with regard to the balance of payments, a position that has been entirely falsified by the events of last year, and a forecast that was outrageously wide of the mark.We had the statement that taking everything into consideration and weighing, in particular, all the bad things that might be foreseen, that balance was going to be at least £50,000,000 down. Of course, it is nothing like that, and let no member of the Fianna Fáil Administration claim any credit for what has happened in that regard during the year. There has been an improvement along lines on which they said it could not take place. There was no possibility, the Tánaiste said, of any increase in exports. The only value in the improvement that has come about in the year in that connection has been the great increase in agricultural exports.

The decrease in imports was, I consider, a cowardly method of dealing with them. It is a method which appeals to some people because, if you keep imports low, then, in order to avoid an increase in prices, you must diminish the spending power the people have. That was the second excuse for cutting the incomes of people last year, that if they got too much money to spend they would spend it on goods that were coming in across the frontier, and so there would be great importations and at the end of the year the balance of trade would be very badly out. That was the policy adopted, and that was the philosophy that was behind the last Budget.

I am asked what is my suggestion for an improvement. I say cut the fake out of the Estimates. In the book which has been presented there is provision for over £100,000,000. There was one ejaculation in connection with that figure, that £4,000,000 of it should not be in the book at all, that it should have been brought in as an element—a below-the-line or above-the-line—of capital services. Of course, it is better to put it in to frighten the people so that they will not be disappointed if the Budget does not reveal a great gloom, but is only slightly tinged with gloom.

What was done in connection with the bankers' advocacy was to move interest rates up, because, of course, if there is capital development, and particularly if that capital developmentis to cover such things as a housing policy, rural electrification and other policies, and if the rate at which money is borrowed is raised it removes some of the incentives, by way of cheapness, to those who are anxious to go into housebuilding, rural electrification, by raising the rates on them and making money dear. It is one of the old classical ways to stop spending and force people instead, because they cannot get their money employed in the way in which they would like, to put it into the more lucrative savings, such as a 5 per cent. national loan would give them. All that adds to the misery of the people, as we forecast it would.

The turn of the year has shown that we have an unemployment figure of 90,000. Emigration has excited comment, not merely from those who have charge of schools, the clerical managers of schools and those in charge of souls, but from those interested in the development of the rural areas. It has even drawn comment from those on the other side. We recently had the statement of a Parliamentary Secretary that there were thousands of people swarming into one of the industrial cities in England, and that this attracted attention to the point that the clerical advisers there want a social bureau established to direct these people to keep them away from what they call systems, methods and atmospheres which are alien to them and to their culture. That must be counted as part of the cost, and I assume part of the foreseen cost, of this policy of deflation: cutting out things, overtaxation, the raising of interest rates and of everything designed to make business more difficult, with employment far from easy to obtain and maintain.

We have been asked, what is to be done about it? Prune your Estimates. There is still padding in these Estimates. Let us get a statement as to what happened last year and get that without any secret carrying-over in excess—without any padding even of these Estimates or the supplementaries of the present year. Let us be told clearly what is the position, and whatit is that is required should be taken off the taxpayer this year and how success can be achieved in taking it off without any new Budget and without any increase in the method of extorting. After that, supposing the Government changed its mind and changed its direction and went out on the system that we left behind us, in which there was buoyancy everywhere. The revenue was buoyant because business and trade were good.

I do not think that, in the three years I was in Government lately, I got a forecast from the Revenue Commissioners of a decreased yield from the existing taxes. Year after year I got an estimate of a good increase, and that good increase lasted until last year, notwithstanding the blunderers who have come into office. I doubt if the Revenue Commissioners will give an estimate of an increased yield this year from present taxes because direct taxation, of course, will feel what has happened in the way of business depression. Traders' profits are bound to be down. All business activity, in so far as it yielded a return, is bound to show a smaller return. The yield from direct taxes, corporation profits tax and, in particular, income-tax and surtax from traders, probably for the first time since 1947 will show a decline.

If there was the same buoyancy as there had been, the money that is required for the civil servants, £2,000,000 odd, and for allied people—Guards, teachers and the Army—would almost automatically be covered by the increased revenue yield from old-time taxes. I am quite sure that the estimated yield presented to me in any one of the three years would, on the average, on the then existing taxes, carry more than the £2,000,000 odd required to pay all this State personnel. Of course, that is not an easy remedy to suggest to people who have their faces set in the opposite direction and followed the bankers' policy, and feel that they can run this country successfully by still holding fast to what those people advised them on.

The Taoiseach, on the 12th February, when speaking here, made no attempt, as some of his followers have done, tosay that there was not an increase in unemployment. There was, he regretted to say, an increase in unemployment and he confessed that there was no permanent cure. Well, that is a change. One does not like to go back to his apprentice years, but in 1932 the Taoiseach's only expression on unemployment was that the only thing wrong about employment in this country was that there should be any unemployment. Himself and his present Tánaiste agreed that in a year of Fianna Fáil Government all unemployment would be obliterated. In 1947 the present Taoiseach had a different view about the emigration that he used to decry.

He told us earlier that emigration was a crime against the State and in a famous advertisement for an election at that time he said that no country had an easier remedy at hand with regard to unemployment and emigration than this country, that the remedies were staring one in the face and it was only perversity on the part of the Government that prevented the use of them and the stoppage of unemployment and emigration.

In 1947 he told us he doubted whether emigration could be stopped. They had done their best in Fianna Fáil and there it was. He appealed to people in Opposition could they not give him some plan to stop the emigration that was then being accepted by him as more or less normal. In that same year, 1947, he appealed to the members of the Opposition to give him a plan for agriculture. He said what they had tried and done and, notwithstanding it all, agriculture was languishing, people were leaving the land, 25,000 to 30,000 a year, most of them drifting across to England. His plea to us was "Tell us what can be done". That was the end of 16 years. It meant not merely the end of a failure but the end of a policy. They had got in on the basis that they had a policy for these things.

The Tánaiste, speaking in October, 1951, spoke about the lowering of our standard of living. He put this rotund phrase into circulation:—

"Whether that took the form of rising unemployment or increasingemigration, higher prices or higher taxation, it would represent the defeat of all our hopes for the future of the country."

Recollect that litany—increasing emigration, rising unemployment, higher prices or higher taxation. We got them all last year when they voted for them as something that represented the defeat of all our hopes for the future of the country.

A member of the clergy, speaking here in the early stages of this month, spoke about the declining Irish race. The headline in this extract that I have is: "The Irish Becoming a Vanishing Race." The phrase that he used, as quoted in this paper is:—

"The decline in the Irish birth rate, one of the principal causes of which was unemployment, was particularly alarming and as a result the Irish were becoming a vanishing race."

He said that the race had been declining for the last 100 years and if the trend continued they would in another century be reduced to a handful of crocks, neurotics, and so on. According to his forecast, there will be more even than the 1,500,000 who will not find it possible, by industry and other lawful means, to provide their own medical and other necessary services.

He spoke of the low marriage rate. He said that marriages were too few and taking place too late in life. He added:—

"There is no incentive to anybody to get married at the present time. There is too much insecurity and no encouragement. You cannot be sure of your job and you cannot be sure of your house."

Those are the conditions that were definitely brought about by the proposals of last year's Budget.

The newspapers of the 13th January carried two comments. One was by a member of the present Government, who said, having boasted of some of the things the Government had done, that he had to admit that they had not been completely successful; they had only been partially successful. Almostcheek by jowl with that was a column relating to queues for the dole in Limerick and a statement there made by a member of the Limerick Corporation that the busiest industry in Limerick was the labour exchange, which was working a double shift because of unprecedented unemployment in the city.

Yet the Government were only partially successful in their efforts. Of course, they were only partially successful. The Budget plan last year did not include that workers would get any increase. They fought that outside this House and brought their claims before the Labour Court and got their awards. That was not part of the Budget. The Budget was framed on the point that incomes exceeded the rise in the cost of living and, therefore, people could bear the subsidies.

If the Government had been completely successful, supposing there had been no increase in wages, then, of course, there would have been less purchasing power. That might have had a better effect with regard to the balance of payments; there might have been fewer imports, but there would be more unemployed, more depression in trade. People would have less money to spend. There would be less frequenting of the shops. The turnover of the shops would decline and the shop employees might walk the plank or might find that they were working two or three days a week instead of full shift.

The plan was only partially successful. I suppose the ordinary bull that wanders through a china shop and does great damage there and is being hauled off to the local common to speak on: "My Efforts with Regard to the China Industry" could say: "I was only partially successful. If I had been left long enough I could have wrecked the whole shop." It is in that way I accept the view of a member of the Government that the Government were only partially successful. They did not succeed in closing down on everybody—there are some people who are still under their thumb—but they were beaten as far as those who made applications to the Labour Courtare concerned, and got increases that brought them up again to the new costs of living, the ones that were brought about by the Budget proposals of last year.

People who are suffering, accordingly, of course, at the moment, are those who could not get an increase in their emoluments to bring them up to the new increase in the cost of living. Some day or another the painful process of readjustment in connection with these people will have to be gone through again.

I wonder do the Government, look-in back on their achievements of last year, not now consider that last year's Budget was a mistake? After all, the main thing they did was to give certain increased social security moneys. The phrase has been £3,000,000. So far, I have seen no trace of the expenditure of £3,000,000 this year. At best, the expenditure in this service was never put beyond £2,000,000 and there was £1,000,000 in hand. The way that money was to be found, then, was by saving over £6,600,000 on the food subsidies and giving back certain compensatory social welfare benefits to the extent of £2,750,000, leaving the Government the gainer by £918,000 on all this.

Again, incidentally the Supplementary Estimates that are supposed to show the provision for the social welfare increases and the compensatory social benefits are £1,000,000 short of what this table indicated as likely to be the sum last year. I wonder would they not think over this, that, by reducing the subsidies to the extent they did—£6,000,000—they left these people with a grievance? In this case, first of all they had a provision of money somewhere for what they called the compensations and they did not compensate adequately at all, so those people were left with a grievance.

Secondly, they off-loaded some of those charges that appear ordinarily in the Estimates and in the Budget, to industry; but that has not made the situation in the country any better. The workers who found the cost of living increased sought an increase in wages and got a 12/- average, which istheir view of the least they could ask for, considering the peculiar state of the country, in order to get some approach to the equivalent. That has been a great disturbance to industry, and so far as industry presses down on agriculture, agriculture is bearing the full weight of that.

There are middle-class people who got no compensatory benefits that people who go through the Labour Court or any other pressure system may chance to get in increased earnings. They are suffering and will continue to suffer as long as this lopsided situation persists.

Finally, there is the great body of the State servants—civil servants—and to their approach to the arbitration court and the results they could get therefrom are attached the members of the Army, the members of the Garda and the teachers. They are all interrelated. There again, as during the war years and up to 1947, they are going to be kept down just because— and I always thought it was an immoral reason—they are under the thumb of the Government and can be coerced where other people cannot. Do not forget that this is merely carrying out in the year 1953 an old vendetta against the Civil Service. The Civil Service emoluments were closed down on earlier than even the Standstill Order in its application to the wages of industrial and other workers. They never got by increases anything like what was taken from them. They got an increase in 1947, another in 1948 and the arbitration award later. All those were measured by their increased cost of living. They were previously on a bonus system, which automatically gave them not the full cost of living but some percentage of it.

In 1947, when the autumn Budget was introduced, it was introduced with a definite hint, an approach to a threat, to all wage earners, but in particular to the civil servants, as to what was likely to happen. The Government wanted to control wages, they had a Bill ready for the control of wages. I quoted sections of it in the House when I had the file in my possession, and these quotations are on record. The Taoiseach himself said in publicin the Dáil here that the then Government "regarded the temporary limitation of wage increases as vitally necessary in present circumstances."

The Bill was ready, only the by-elections of 1947 dislodged the Government from its position of power. Then, during our period, the present Minister for Justice, Deputy Boland, in a speech that was quoted often in this House but will bear repetition, showed the mentality they had. This is a quotation from the Irish Pressof the 17th January, 1949:—

"The increase in Civil Service salaries is to cost about £700,000. That is the increase in a full year. The Army, the Gardaí and the teachers are also entitled to increases, but the total cost is not yet disclosed. The local government officials will naturally expect increases also, as will workers all over the country."

Take that for a horrible picture—the teachers, the Guards, the Army, the Civil Service, the local government employees and workers generally were likely to look for increases—and then the cap was put on it:—

"This was the situation which Fianna Fáil were determined to prevent and would have prevented if three of the six lost Dublin seats had been held, because that would have given Mr. de Valera a majority on the 18th February last."

There is an open declaration of policy. Fianna Fáil wanted to prevent increases in wages to all these State personnel groups and also hoped the rot would spread to the right to give the increase, to meet the cost of living, to local government officials and employees and to workers generally. That was what Fianna Fáil would have prevented if they had only held the seats. That is what they tried to prevent last year when the Budget policy was nothing more than an attempt to enforce the mentality that is behind that series of phrases. As I say, some broke through, because the workers generally could not be coerced by Budget proposals. But they are the only ones who escaped. All the others against whom this vendetta was carriedon are still being kept without their subsidies—and subsidies were at one time accepted by the Government as their contribution to stability in prices. They have got to live their unsubsidised lives now and get no return for the increased cost of living, because they are under the thumb of the Government and are completely at their mercy.

Not merely that, they were dishonestly treated. One could have had some admiration—though one could have criticised the ruthlessness and the heartlessness of it—for a Government that said they were not going to have arbitration and would go back to the old position of civil servants, through their representatives, meeting the Minister for Finance, he representing the Government, and seeing what they could screw out of him. But the Government put in an outside body to balance the staffs' allegations of increased costs and the official allegations that they did not weigh heavily on the Civil Service. Civil Service arbitration was accepted and a chairman was appointed by agreement between the staff and the Minister for Finance.

I wonder if people remember what happened in the election of 1951. During the course of the election, it became known that the then Civil Service Arbitration Board had made an award. The matter was first raised by the present Tánaiste, followed up by the present Minister for Finance and spoken of then by a whole gaggle of followers. The statement was: "There is an arbitration award and the present government do not intend to honour it; we will". That cry and the changes on it were wrung throughout the constituencies and definitely the dishonest pretence was made that Fianna Fáil were behind arbitration and would honour fully any award that was made. During the election, Deputy Lemass spoke at New Street, Dublin, as reported on the 26th May, 1951, and had with him a Deputy of this House, Deputy McCann. His speech, as reported in the Press, was that:—

"The Coalition groups were now saying that if Fianna Fáil were returned to office the Civil Servicearbitration award would not be put into operation."

Then he had a good deep breath and gave this out:—

"I can assure you that any award made by the arbitration board will be honoured by any future Fianna Fáil Government."

So I suppose they fooled certain civil servants into the belief that their honesty could be depended on. We have now an arbitration court set up and an award has been made and the Government's attitude towards it has been revealed.

I want to say something with regard to arbitration, because I understand there is some question made regarding our position. I spoke for many years in this House against the injustice and what I still describe as the immorality of the previous Government, before 1947, with regard to State personnel. I thought there was no excuse—and I understand they were approached by certain moralists to give the excuse and could not give it—for different treatment being imposed on the Civil Service from that imposed upon outside workers. I spoke against that injustice and said that, so far as I was concerned, it would be rectified if I got any chance or position of authority where I might rectify it.

It has been my luck in political life here through the run of office to have been in association with certain things that I think are for the good of the State. There was the beet sugar scheme; there was the electricity supply scheme; and, in my last period, there was what I think was the great and beneficial change with regard to capital development. I count these things amongst the good seminal things with which I was associated. Then there was the system of arbitration for the civil servants. I think it was a beneficial thing, a thing the civil servants were entitled to demand on account of the scandalous treatment meted out to them in the war years. They have never recovered what was taken from them over these years. They have got on to a new status, but they have had to put behind them the losses imposed on them during the war years.

Arbitration for the Civil Service was long overdue and I feel very glad indeed that luck gave me the chance to be associated with a Government that was determined to work out good arbitration conditions and to give them to the Civil Service. I am very glad also that there was attached to them the interrelationship with outside bodies like the Guards and the Army, and the arbitration scheme for teachers was modulated according to the scheme for the Civil Service. It gave these people a position in which they could feel that they were not under the thumb of any Government, that they had a right to make their case, to get an arbitrator before whom their case could be presented in public and public opinion swayed for or against them, according to the strength or weakness of their case. It has been nothing more than a public cheat to fool civil servants, by the setting up of arbitration machinery, into the belief that whatever decision that arbitration authority gave would be fully met and decently and honestly honoured. That is the position they are in now.

The Government make the reply: "Where are we to get the money?" There are ways of getting the money. If they could get back the old buoyancy of business and revenue, it would give all the money required for these State personnel, and if the costs of State personnel are too high, why take, with regard to State personnel, a course that is not taken with anybody else? Are C.I.E. being told to disband their workers because the State has to find money for C.I.E.? How many businesses which made their appearance before the Labour Court have been allowed to put forward the argument that they cannot pay? Why are civil servants and other State personnel to be put in a different position? There is no principle in the method of their treatment. There is nothing but dishonesty, and the mere fact that there is power which is going to be used ruthlessly against these people.

I feel that it is a continuance of the old vendetta, that there is annoyance that, for three years, civil servants got the treatment to which they were entitled and that there is now a showingagain of the claws, with people, because they have power, determined to use that power against folk who cannot strike, who are not very popular, or whose case can certainly be made unpopular by talking to people about the terrific taxation there will have to be in order to balance the moneys required for them. They are put at the end of the line away below C.I.E.—C.I.E. improvements and C.I.E. capital expenditure —below everything else that has to be found in this State and paid for out of taxes, such as warlike stores for the Army. They are to be kept at the very end of the line, huddled there with the Guards, the Army and the teachers, and nobody has yet tried to defend the attitude taken with regard to them. There is merely the whine: "We have not got the money, and we are just not going to find it for them."

Here we are now, after 16 years, and these extra two years, of Fianna Fáil Government. We have emigration running at an unparalleled rate. I often wonder what can people outside think of our protestations about the Six Counties when they stop to consider that, over the years since the State was founded, we have poured out, through emigration, more than the entire population, men, women and children, of the three Ulster counties left to us. Do we want the six other counties of Ulster to have more counties from which to pour out, or do we think that, if we get the six counties of Ulster back, we will have such a contented, hardworking, industrious and prosperous community that we will be able no longer to export emigrants from our part of the territory or even from the Six Counties? Remember that, over the years, we have lost the equivalent of the men, women and children of the three counties of Ulster that still remain to us.

We have unemployment recognised as being at the worst height at which it ever was. The Taoiseach is disturbed about it, but he has forgotten his old promises, or his old view, that unemploymentwas easy to be cured here and simply says: "We have no cure, no permanent cure, for it." We have gone through in the last year what, I suppose, has been the worst business depression that business folk in this country have encountered. Some of them say that 1931 might have been worse, the time when continental depression swung over here, but in those years we were preserved by our preoccupation with farming, and countries preoccupied with farming matters lived through that depression better than anybody else.

We have business depression at a point which has not been exceeded in 20 years. Industrial production is languishing and the index of industrial production has shown a fall almost month by month since the return to office of Fianna Fáil. Agricultural production, although it did increase and exports went up in the last three or four years, has been almost definitely priced out of the export highly competitive market in which it must find its solutions. If one looks through the trade returns, it is amazing to see the extent to which this country depends upon agricultural production even yet. There was a time when one could name a couple of industries— Guinness, Jacobs and a few others. We lost Jacobs exports for the reason, as they themselves stated, that their ingredients had become more and more dutiable—the cases in which they packed their goods and so on—and they found themselves, by our policy of protection, forced to sell their export trade to their Liverpool firm. We have lost that, through the policy of giving ourselves here a high-cost industry.

There is really only one thing that has kept the farming community alive and in any way prosperous, and that is an industry which Fianna Fáil, in 1930, came in determined to destroy, the cattle trade. If they had been as successful in that as they have been in the attainment of some of their other objectives, this country would be flat, but despite the venom against the cattle trade it is still the mainstay of the country. It provides the most lucrative single part of our exports,the goods that we send out to buy the imports we need to maintain our standards of living. Our taxes are at a height that is unprecedented. Rates are apparently not so bad as they are going to be, but they are going up.

The new policy in respect of which Deputy Dr. Browne is so much in favour is to tax the farmer if it cannot be done by direct methods, and that could hardly be done in this House. It will be done indirectly. You cannot tax the farmers by direct taxation. A farmer may subscribe something indirectly if he has enough money to smoke and drink and you can get the farmers on the rates. The new policy is that we will get the farmers on the rates through the new Health Bill service. Every day carries news of an increase in the rates. Rate-payers in any community are satisfied if they see there is only 2/- gone off. Rates are at an unprecedented level and as bad as they are, apparently they are going to be worse. The idea is to tax the farmers. Senator Quirke suggested a method of doing that by taxing the cattle exports.

We have a community as far as destitution is concerned defined in a way in which the White Paper shows it, 1,000,000 people, one-third of the population, availing themselves of the Public Assistance Act of 1939, the test being whether by their own industry or lawful means they cannot provide the necessary medical services. We have 1,000,000 availing themselves of that, but there must be 1,500,000 who are entitled to avail themselves of it, that is, half the population brought to the level of destitution—the level that used to be bluntly called pauperism. That is the result of 16 years of Fianna Fáil Government.

Deputy McGilligan is so rarely seen in Dáil Éireann that I spent most of the time in the House listening to him. He started off by speaking against the Health Bill and finished up by speaking against the Health Bill. I do not know what the Labour Party will think of his observations in regard to the health services.

I did not speak against the Health Bill.

Deputy McGrath is entitled to be heard.

Is he entitled completely to misrepresent? I did not say anything against the Health Bill.

He is doing no more misrepresentation against you than you did against Deputy Dr. Browne.

I did not open my mouth when Deputy McGilligan was speaking and I thought he would have the manners to do the same. Apparently a university education is not everything.

At least it teaches me to be honest.

If Deputy McGilligan was honest in his opposition to the Health Bill, will he tell us why he did not come in and vote against it?

I am not against it.

Would the Deputy tell us why only 21 members could be got to vote against it?

It was not against the Bill they voted but in favour of an amendment introduced by Deputy Dr. O'Higgins.

The Health Bill passed its Second Reading unanimously in this House. Would the people on the opposite side of the House tell us the reason for that? Why did they not come in and oppose this Bill they have all the talk about? I could hardly expect a man like Deputy McGilligan to vote for it. He comes in four or five times in the year and makes a speech on the Budget or some other financial problem and then we see no more of him for several months. He then comes in and apparently does not know what is happening at all. Twenty-one people voted for Deputy O'Higgins's amendment and Deputy McGilligan was not amongst them.

Voted for Deputy O'Higgins's amendment.

I contend that the Opposition was not serious at all in voting against that.

They voted for it.

They gave a very poor return to the unfortunate people who subscribed to the Irish Medical Association subscriptions.

Did the Deputy do better out of the dance-hall proprietors?

He got a better return.

Is the Deputy entitled to suggest that the Irish Medical Association have given subscriptions to political Parties in the Opposition?

I am suggesting that members of the Irish Medical Association did.

Is the Deputy entitled to make such a suggestion on the discussion we have here?

I am as entitled to make a suggestion as the Deputy did about the dance-hall proprietors.

We produced the letters.

We produced correspondence on that.

I have it here if the Deputy wants it. Would the Deputy like one of the letters?

I do not mind.

The Deputy is entitled to make his speech.

Deputy McGilligan talked about the unemployment figures but he said it was not the responsibility of any Government to find employment. He talked about paupers in the country. No person is dying in Adrigoole now as they died in his time.

Would the Deputy produce the report in regard to Adrigoole from the Minister for LocalGovernment in respect of the time referred to?

The Deputy is in possession.

I am not giving way.

Is there a report in regard to Adrigoole in the Department of Local Government? The Cork County Council might have some observations to make on it.

I was not responsible for the Cork County Council at that time.

Who is responsible for starvation in Adrigoole?

The Government did not accept responsibility for employment.

Quote the Dáil debates on that.

The Deputy ought to get a lesson in manners and he ought to listen as patiently as I did. I did not speak in such an insulting manner as Deputy McGilligan did about Deputy Cogan. I never opened my mouth while he was speaking. Deputy McGilligan was the Deputy who came in here as Minister for Finance and proposed an increase in the university grants so as to enable himself and others to get an increase in their salaries.

That is contemptible.

On a point of order.

I am not giving way.

On a point of order. Is Deputy McGrath going to be allowed to make a remark like that in the House and charge a Deputy with having taken parliamentary action as a Minister for the purpose of increasing his own emoluments?

The Deputy should not have made that remark.

Is he going to withdraw the remark?

Is that not correct, Sir?

I cannot say whether it is correct.

The Chair knows blooming well it is not correct.

You are the worst chairman that was ever in the Chair.

Is the Deputy going to withdraw his remark?

You are a disgrace and responsible for all the trouble that has been in this House for the last 12 months.

I will ask the Deputy to withdraw.

I am going.

Deputy Sweetman withdrew.

Is it in order for Deputy Mulcahy to use the expression "blooming" to the Chair? If it is not in order will he be asked to withdraw it?

The Chair is certainly not blooming.

The Chair is not under discussion.

This expression was used by Deputy Mulcahy towards the Chair. I demand that the expression be withdrawn.

Can I have the original point of order dealt with? Is Deputy McGrath going to withdraw the charge that he made, that a Deputy of this House when a Minister made grants to University College, so that his emoluments there might be increased?

I told the Deputy that he should not have made that remark.

Is he to be asked to withdraw that remark?

As I was saying——

Is the Deputy going to be asked to withdraw that remark?

Is the Deputy withdrawing the remark?

If the Chair asks me, I do.

Is the statement made by Deputy Mulcahy to be withdrawn which included the word "blooming" when referring to the Chair?

What is the statement?

There was nothing unparliamentary in it.

The statement in which he referred to the Chair and used the word "blooming."

I did not hear the word.

The Deputy stated that the statement I made was untrue and "that the Chair blooming well knew it." If that is not a reflection on the Chair I do not know what is.

When the Chair was asked about the statement that Deputy McGrath made, the Chair said that he did not know, implying that he did not know whether Deputy McGilligan, as Minister for Finance, had given grants to University College so that people might get increased emoluments.

That question has been settled. I am asking the Deputy is he withdrawing the remark he directed towards the Chair?

When you made that statement, I made use of this remark: "The Chair blooming well knows it is not true." In the circumstances, I withdraw the remark, but the incident should never have arisen.

I might as well add that Deputy Sweetman when leaving the House said that you were responsible for all the trouble in the House for the last 12 months and cleared out before he could be asked to withdraw. That is another reflection on the Chair.

He was asked to withdraw.

Deputy Sweetman left the House at the instance of the Chair rather than withdraw it.

Deputy McGrath on the Second Reading of the Bill.

He said he was leaving and he left the House rather than withdraw it.

He withdrew it when he had the door open to leave.

He never withdrew the remark.

We are not discussing whether he withdrew it or not.

Apparently, two people over there are in agreement with Deputy Sweetman that you were the cause of all the trouble in the House in the last 12 months. These people talk about employment, and they ran out of office without making any provision whatever to pay the employees of C.I.E. They had the impudence to come in here and talk about unemployment and were it not for the fact that the Fianna Fáil Government brought in Estimates to pay subsidies to C.I.E., we would have the whole of the C.I.E. employees unemployed the same as the people who were to be employed in the chassis factory at Inchicore where we could have been manufacturing chassis. Those who say they are interested in the unemployment problem scrapped that because it was a Fianna Fáil project.

They are very anxious now about the civil servants, and yet they waited until a day or two before the last election to make the Civil Service arbitration award known and they had no provision made for that either. I am one of those who believe that civil servants, especially the lower paid ones, are entitled to fair treatment as well as everybody else. But I do not like to see hypocrites, like those on theopposite side of the House, coming along here wailing about the civil servants when the Post Office workers were at a standstill from 1948 until Fianna Fáil came into power in 1951.

They were not. They got two increases.

They were. I had a letter in the Cork Examinerthe night Deputy Norton was speaking in Patrick Street and he did not contradict it. They did not get a farthing increase from December, 1948, until 1951, the lower paid postmen or anybody else.

They got two increases.

If these people over there are so anxious to do all the things they say, there is a very easy way out of it. Let them say here and now that they will vote for the increases in the Budget, that they are prepared to vote for this increase, and it will relieve the situation very much for everybody. Everybody knows that the inter-Party Government were here for three and a half years living on the Marshall loan and that as soon as that was spent they ran out of office without being voted out. Those are the people who come in here and say that we did nothing. We did a lot of things which they told us it was impossible to do.

We brought in an Adoption Act and we increased the I.R.A. pensions. I was told by one of the Opposition when he was a Minister that they had no intention of increasing I.R.A. pensions. The I.R.A. pensioners were the only body of pensioners who did not get an increase for that three and a half years. To hear them now, you would think they were inclined to throw their arms round the I.R.A. pensioners and kiss them. Still, we were told lately that in a few years, if you speak about Deputies' records, the records will be all gone and it will be no harm. These are Deputy Dunne's and Deputy Flanagan's remarks.

Those who say that there is a way of doing the things that they want to get done should say that they will supportthem and vote for them. They should not be running with the hare and hunting with the hounds and trying to keep the I.R.A. on their hands now when it is too late. When a Bill is going through the House, they stay out of the House in case they would have to vote for or against the Bill. That is what happens. They talk about forming a Coalition Government again. Surely they do not expect the Labour Party to join a Government like that and be against the Health Bill.

The Deputy is travelling a far way from the Second Reading of the Central Fund Bill.

I want to refer to the way these people treated the workers of the country. They kept a carrot dangling in front of them for three years in the form of a Social Welfare Bill and did not take the Second Reading of it until they knew they were going before the country. They should not be acting the hypocrite now and say they are doing all these things.

I must say Deputy McGilligan amuses me. For many years I heard from him the same speech, year after year on the three or four major occasions on which financial policy is discussed. In his usual sweet, sugary, mild language he denounced to-day the venom of the Government towards the civil servants, the Gardaí, the Army and all those others who are paid from State funds. I am sorry that Deputy McGilligan sees fit to leave the House just now. I do not see why he should run away. He has done exactly the same thing on occasions in the past and I would have liked him to remain because there are certain quotations I want to give him, quotations which, I think, answer 100 per cent. the case he made for an hour and a half here to-day.

The Opposition Deputies take the line that they can throw as much dirt as they like for as long as they like at Fianna Fáil but they will not allow anyone on the Government Benches to answer them. They turn the House into a bear-garden if anybody attemptsto reply to their arguments or to refute the untruths they propound. If they cannot turn the House into a bear-garden, if they have all gone home and there are not enough for that purpose—there are only three out of the whole Opposition present in the House now when we are discussing this important matter—then, like Deputy McGilligan, they run away.

For years we listened to Deputy McGilligan denouncing standstill Orders in relation to wages, in relation to the pay of civil servants, the Gardaí, the Army and so on and claiming that the Fianna Fáil Government should have done much more than they did for all these people. Through the manoeuvring—let me put it that way—of Fine Gael and some of the other lawyers who formed the Coalition Government, the present Opposition succeeded in getting a majority here to put them in as Government for a short time. What had Deputy McGilligan to say then, the Deputy who had been complaining for years about the perfidy and the rapaciousness of Fianna Fáil in robbing the civil servants, the Army and the Gardaí?

In his first Budget speech, just a month or two after coming into office, on 4th May, 1948, he said:—

"The substantial wage and salary increases already secured by all classes of workers with such further additions as shorter hours, paid holidays, children's allowances and other increases in social services"—he did not say that all these were got from Fianna Fáil—"have gone as far as possible in present circumstances to meet the claims of social justice."

On a dozen and one occasions prior to that particular speech, Deputy McGilligan had regaled the House with the same kind of speech that he made here to-day: that we, the Fianna Fáil Government, had robbed the civil servants; that we had robbed the Civic Guards; that we had robbed the farmers; that we had robbed the businessmen. Indeed, he maintained that everybody in the country had been robbed by Fianna Fáil and if he got into Government again to-morrow hemight, in his first Budget speech, say in relation to the last two years of Fianna Fáil Government what he said in relation to their first 16 years, including during the war period:—

"The substantial wage and salary increases already secured by all classes of workers, with such further additions as shorter hours, paid holidays, children's allowances and other increases in social services have gone as far as possible in present circumtances to meet the claims of social justice."

Deputy McGilligan is, of course, one of those people who will not himself engage in violence. I do not blame him for that. But he does try to incite others to violence if he has behind him certain people—20 years ago he had Deputy General Mulcahy behind him—and he will incite these people to violence, but he himself will never take part in that violence. At the moment he wants to incite the civil servants, the Guards and the Army to violence because the Government is not giving them all the money he claims they should get.

That is a dirty, contemptible, irresponsible remark.

Thank goodness, the Deputy can only shower words and nasty names at me. If he had a firing squad under his control he might turn it on me and that would be much worse. Some of us have lived to talk and tell the Deputy a little of the truth on occasions.

That is another dirty, contemptible, irresponsible remark.

The Deputy and those who associate with him used the firing squad and the murder gang in this country for years.

Now we will have to get back to the discussion on the Second Reading of the Central Fund Bill.

A Deputy

Deputy S. Collins discussed the civil war last night.

Deputy McGilligan made the claim that 86 per cent. of the civil servants earn only £5 per week. He said that several times. He also made the calculation that that represented only £2 10s. in 1939. I have here a list of the civil servants whose maximum pay does not exceed £400 per annum or 153/4 per week. If any Deputy likes to put down a parliamentary question he can have the whole list but, looking down that list, one sees that the lowest paid group in the Civil Service proper, namely, the writing assistants, have a maximum of 114/11 per week. That, of course, is very much above the £5 per week to which Deputy McGilligan referred. The ordinary typists get 114/11 per week. The shorthand typists get 128/8 per week. In addition to that they have regular hours. They have a pension scheme. We would all like to see civil servants very much better paid but we cannot pay them out of money plucked from the air. We have to pay them out of the pockets of a lot of other people who are not as well paid as they are, who have got no pension rights and who may have to go on public funds when they come to retire.

Deputy McGilligan said that we had behaved dishonourably and dishonestly in refusing to implement the recent award. I do not want to enter into that matter now because the Minister for Finance dealt with it last night and it will come up for discussion on the introduction of the Budget. No one can claim that the action of the Government in not introducing a supplementary budget to implement the recent award was not fully in keeping with the arbitration agreement entered into with the civil servants. Will Deputy McGilligan tell me or anybody else that we broke a contract with the civil servants, or that they did not know what was in the contract? If we had broken a contract with them they would have taken us before the courts and got an award to implement the contract we had broken.

In the last resort this Dáil and the Government must take responsibilityfor saying what the civil servants have to be paid. It is much nicer to give than to refuse, but the Government must say what the civil servants will be paid unless we let the civil servants decide themselves or unless we put the 35,000 people who have been lucky enough to get into the Civil Service, into a position when they can dictate to all the taxpayers of the country what they are to pay.

Deputy McGilligan again, after a lapse of three years, started to weep about emigration. We had 16 years of office before 1948. During those 16 years we did everything we could to create conditions in which emigration would not be necessary. The only way to stop emigration, as any schoolboy knows, is to create opportunities for work and the drawing of wages for that work. That was the Fianna Fáil programme and before the war, in spite of the Fine Gael Party's opposition during the economic war, we succeeded in creating extra jobs at the rate of 10,000 to 12,000 per year. Last year, however, owing to the flooding of our country with finished consumer goods which the Coalition Government allowed to be imported, we had a very big decrease in employment in our industries, like textiles, and so on. However, we have got that almost corrected and the textile mills are fairly well on their feet again. Employment has reached its old level by now and we trust as time goes on it will increase and that the same will apply in other industries which have started or which we hope to start.

Deputy McGilligan and a few of his supporters have made a great to-do about the level of taxation last year, stating how unnecessary it was and how we defrauded the people out of £9,500,000. How does he think we should raise the money for social services, for social welfare benefits and the other payments that are covered by the Supplementary Estimates amounting to £9,500,000? Does he think we should borrow for it? It is wrong to say there was no indication given except recently that there would be Supplementary Estimates this year. In the Budget last year the Minister for Finance pointed out that therewould be £5,750,000 extra, £3,000,000 for new social services and Social Welfare Act pensions and £2,750,000 for compensatory social welfare benefits. It is true that there has been another £3,500,000 in addition for Supplementary Estimates beyond what the Minister for Finance gave warning about at the time of the Budget. That £3,500,000 is very far away from the £9,500,000 of which Deputy McGilligan said we robbed the people. I put it to Deputy McGilligan or to anybody else, if we are going to spend money on social welfare and items of that kind, should we borrow for them or should we meet them out of taxation? There are four members left in the Opposition Benches: Deputy Mulcahy, Deputy Collins, Deputy Dr. Esmonde and Deputy Hession. Would they suggest that we should borrow for social services rather than tax?

I suggest with respect that with regard to the hospital money you should take that out of capital expenditure, not out of income.

I am talking about social services.

That is a social service.

No, the building of hospitals is a capital service and we are borrowing for it. But for the paying out to a person of 21/- for an old age pension or 24/- for sick benefit or for payment in respect of children's allowances, does Deputy Esmonde say they should be borrowed for?

No. Certainly not.

But Deputy McGilligan indicated they should be.

He did not.

He complained we had robbed the people of £9,500,000 for Supplementary Estimtes by taxing for those rather than borrowing. I am glad Deputy Esmonde—though the other three members kept their heads down—looked up and said "No." Supposing we had carried on borrowing £9,500,000 for social services, or borrowing for increased social services,as Deputy McGilligan did, what would have happened? I remember making the calculation when he was in Government that every penny of the increase in social services during the Coalition régime was reflected in an increase in deadweight debt. We had this system of borrowing for social services during Deputy McGilligan's term of office as Minister for Finance and it has left us with a nice bill to pay for interest and sinking fund. Indeed, if we count all the Budgets for which he was responsible there must have been about £4,000,000 per year imposed by him on this country as increased deadweight debt.

The Minister for Finance last night made a calculation that to pay the increased award to the Civil Service and to give corresponding awards to the Guards, the Army and other public servants would cost £2,500,000 or thereabouts. Even if he put 2d. extra on cigarettes and 6d. extra on the standard rate of income-tax, he would not get the £2,500,000. This year, and every year for the next 40 years, we are paying twice as much as would give the award, paying it to the people and to the banks who subscribed to the national loans which appeared as deadweight debt in Deputy McGilligan's accounts. A sum of £2,500,000 would pay for these extras. I want to repeat that the deadweight debt for which Deputy McGilligan was responsible imposes on this country almost twice as much annually, and will for the next 40 years, as would have paid these extra amounts to civil servants and other public servants or, on the other hand, would have enabled us to reduce taxation by £4,000,000, if it were not thought desirable in the general interest to grant these other concessions.

Now we come to the question of consumption for a few minutes and of who said that people were consuming too much at some time. On the 4th May, 1948, Deputy McGilligan, when he was Minister for Finance, as reported in column 1053 of Voume 110, wound up a very long sentence, which Deputies can look up themselves if they wish, in this fashion:—

"... impossible to view with equanimity a continued reduction in external assets on last year's scale. These assets can be consumed now only at the expense of a reduced standard of living for the future."

He went on further down in the same column to say:—

"Both to offset inflation at home and to prevent serious dislocation of the balance of payments it is essential for us as a community to produce more, especially for export, to avoid spending our external capital on consumption goods and to find more of our capital needs from current rather than past savings."

Of course, I knew when Deputy McGilligan was denying what Deputy McGrath had said that Deputy McGrath was nearer the truth than Deputy McGilligan but it was not possible then to give the hint to Deputy McGrath as to how Deputy McGilligan, on the 4th May, 1948, was all set against using our external assets for the purchase of consumption goods.

That was on 4th May, 1948. The Coalition was three years in office after that and Deputy McGilligan changed his tune. Being browbeaten by this, that and the other Minister, he discovered a formula by which he could liquidate our external assets and ease the situation politically at home, particularly for the Government. This whole business of the expenditure of Marshall Aid money for consumption goods was the greatest fraud ever put over on this country. There was at the beginning of Marshall Aid a careful assessment of purchases proposed. The Department of Finance carried on for a time more or less the regulations that I laid down for them as Minister for Finance in relation to dollar purchases—that they should be of an essential character, something that would add to the productive capacity of this country. For some time that went on but it is on record later, from my predecessor in the Department of External Affairs, how they were urged to spend all the dollars quickly on anything.

Why was that done? Very few people understand the intricacies of financeor Government accounting but every dollar they spent on nylons appeared in the Loan Counterpart Fund from which Deputy McGilligan could borrow without having to ask anybody for it. So the word went out: "Spend dollars on anything so that more pounds will get into the Loan Counterpart Fund. I can draw on that for anything and nobody can stop me overspending" and he overspent in a big way. He talks about buoyancy. Of course if you put anything into a flood, it tends to become buoyant. Any old hulk or even a large stone, if put into a big rapid flood, will become buoyant and will be carried along. With the various devices by which Deputy McGilligan added to the flood of inflation, the economy or the accounts of this country certainly became buoyant. It is known that the yield from taxes in this country is about one-third of the national income in terms of money, so if you can drive the national income up in terms of money, the Exchequer receipts come in without any increase in the rates of taxation. You get in more millions.

Deliberately, Deputy McGilligan flooded this country with borrowed money, borrowed from at home and borrowed from abroad, in an inflationary period, in order that by an inflationary system of finance he could get in additional sums of money without increasing the rates of taxation. Actually the receipts, measured in millions of pounds, increased but the rate per article taxed did not go up. There was certainly buoyancy, the buoyancy of a flood but unfortunately we are paying now for the buoyancy he created.

I quoted here before one of Deputy McGilligan's speeches in which he said, during the time of inflation, that if this flood of finance, this money borrowed and expended, did not result in increased output some of his successors would have a headache. Well, his successor, the present Minister, certainly has been given a real headache by having to meet the evils of the financial situation created by Deputy McGilligan.

I do not think it right that anybody in this country should judge the permanentfinancial policy of the present Minister for Finance and of the Government by the steps taken in last year's Budget.

When a house is on fire, the first job is to get the fire out. Afterwards, you can do something to set the building to rights again. Deputy MacEntee was handed over a State exchequer which was on fire with inflation. The first thing he had to do was put out the fire by means of the drastic increases in taxation which were necessary. Next year and the following year, please goodness, we will be able to get back on to the road of steady progress that was followed by Fianna Fáil during its previous terms of office.

Deputy McGilligan is inciting the people to violence by claiming that the Government, instead of keeping a tight rein on expenditure, should continue with his inflationary processes. If we were so minded, if we were as politically dishonest as our predecessors, we could have carried on an inflationary policy. We could have increased the volume of money at a time when money was too plentiful. That is the easiest thing in the world to do. I want to warn the trade unionists and others in this country who may think that it is any solution to our difficulties, who may think it is any help to our wishes to have a higher standard of life for everybody, to have inflationary finances rather than a reasonable balanced Budget in an inflationary time that they are depending on a very broken reed. In fact, inflation is the worst form of taxation.

When we tax cigarettes an extra 2d. or 4d. we are taxing the smoker of cigarettes. When we tax beer an extra 2d. we are taxing the man who drinks the beer. When we are putting an additional 6d. on the income-tax we are putting an extra burden on the man who has an income sufficiently high to pay income-tax. But when, to avoid taxation, we inflate, we are taxing everybody's £, we are taxing everybody's shilling and we are taxing everybody's penny. It is the worst form of taxation and it is a form of taxation that is adopted by Ministers for Finance only when the situation is so completely disastrous that they haveno other way out or when they are dishonest.

Do people in this country want a Government that has some hope of a future, do they want a Party like the Fianna Fáil Party—which is capable of lasting for centuries—to adopt such practices? It was all right for the Coalition which had no past and no hope for the future to adopt that sort of game in order to carry on for three years. Thank God, the Fianna Fáil Party—a Party with a national record to be proud of—can look forward to handing on that record of tradition to future generations of the Fianna Fáil Party. Our Party would not stoop to that sort of game even though it meant the loss of votes.

When I was bringing in the Supplementary Budget of 1947 I was as well aware as many members of the Opposition, and as Deputy Norton who said that it was political suicide, that, from the point of view of getting votes, it was politically very unpopular. Not only was I aware of it but the Government and the Fianna Fáil Party in general were aware of it. However, we were prepared to stand over that Supplementary Budget because we thought it was honest finance and that we were being honest by the people. We were not going to carry on in Government if the people were not prepared to face their responsibilities and had not sufficient wisdom to see that our policy was right. The people saw the other policy for three years and, at the first opportunity which they got, they threw out the Coalition. In particular, they threw out that part of the Coalition which was the most extreme in its demands for more floods of money when the people were already drowned and poisoned by it. As we know, Deputy MacBride lost eight out of his Party of ten and he himself crawled back on the 24th count.

When Deputy McGrath talks again to Deputy McGilligan about wanting at one time to cut down consumption, he can refer to the revelant paragraph in column 1053 of the 4th May. If he has it by him, he will not be compelled to withdraw the statement because he will have proof of it.

I must say that it was very refreshing to hear Deputy O'Gorman. I did not think that anybody like him was left. At one part of his speech he was most refreshing indeed. He was like a voice from the dim and distant past. He said: "A halt must be called to expenditure. It has already gone too far. The end of the road has been reached as far as taxation is concerned." Then he quoted some song he used to sing about "The End of the Road." I wonder if he sang that song when, along with Deputy McGilligan, he was going down the road at the end of which was the precipice of bankruptcy. I will not go back, however, on Deputy McGilligan's misdeeds for the moment.

There was no story at the end of the road in North-West Dublin.

We have had our ups and downs. The people of this country are not so childish as to think that a constituency such as North-West Dublin is typical of the rest of the country. If we were to run our policy—

The Deputy had it in Tipperary.

—so that we please a section of the electors that have a dominating position in North-West Dublin or in some other constituency —if we were to suit our policy from time to time as the by-elections occur— we would not do the real work which we came into public life to do. We could switch around in regard to these things but, in the long run, that type of thing does not pay. The Coalition Government were accustomed to that sort of switching when by-elections or a general election were in the offing. I remember a couple of instances. Take the glasshouses—a scheme in which I was interested. Deputy Dillon wanted to close them down. He asked the contractor how much he would charge for stopping the work. There was a row in Connemara and Deputy Mongan—who was then alive, God rest him—said that he was going to come up to this House and get an addition.

Is all this relevant now?

We shall finish the story some other day. I just want to say, in relation to elections, that we do not switch our policy to suit elections.

Or switch from Dublin to Tipperary.

I am not going to be personal. The result has been that, though we lost an odd by-election, the general good sense of the people has been such that over the last 20 years they have—with the exception of one period, when they did not mean it, and when they created a situation whereby Fine Gael could get in—supported Fianna Fáil, and will continue to support Fianna Fáil, in my belief, as long as Fianna Fáil does the right and honest thing by the Irish people by endeavouring to develop the resources of Ireland to the greatest extent possible.

Now, there is one sort of misrepresentation—and that, A Cheann Comhairle, is a very mild way of putting it in deference to you—that I would like to refer to. It is that we have cut down on capital development. First of all, we had to teach the Cumann na nGaedheal people a little bit about capital development. Deputy Mulcahy himself was the man who was not very keenly in favour of it when he was in the old Cumann na nGaedheal Government, and so we had to take the job on and get capital development going throughout the country, not only capital development by the Government but to undertake the task of encouraging our people to invest their money in their own industries.

The facts in relation to capital development on State account, over the last few years, were elicited yesterday by Deputy Cogan. He quoted them to-day. I think they will bear repeating. In 1949-50, which was one of the years of the Coalition Government, the expenditure on capital development was £25.7 million; in the next year, 1950-51, it was £26.5 millions, while in last year, 1951-52, it was £41.2 million. I must say that it was rather patheticto hear Deputy Rooney talk about some of the developments that occurred under the Coalition régime. He was so hard put to it that he had to claim the rural electricity scheme as something they had done. I do not want to recite the sins of the Coalition as regards the projects they killed or as regards their lack of initiative, but I do want to emphasise the figures which Deputy Cogan elicited yesterday and quoted again to-day in relation to capital development.

As far as we are concerned, we will continue to push capital development at the greatest possible rate. There is, however, a limit to capital development, as there is to most other things in the world. A man who has a farm and a family and some implements has two options. He can spend all his time making capital improvements on his land and farm buildings, or he can spend some of his time improving his land and farm buildings, and the other portion of it ploughing, sowing, reaping and mowing in order to get a current income. If he does not plough enough or earn enough currently to meet his outgoings, his capital development will come to an end, because he will not have the wherewithal to do it.

The Government of this country is in the same position as the farmer. We can do a certain amount of capital development, but at the same time we must spend enough of our energy in producing boots, clothing, wheat and turf for the people. We cannot go on all the time building houses, roads and hospitals. The people engaged on the building of houses, roads and hospitals have to be fed and clothed, and so we have to spend enough of our energy on that type of work in order to sustain the people who are doing essential capital development.

We could, of course, add to our capacity for capital development by liquidating all our assets abroad as quickly as we could, but that, again, would be unwise. I do not want any person here to accept my word on that. I ask them to look at what other Governments do who have external assets. The amount of external assets of one kind or another held by the British has run down and now they are doing theirutmost, by controls of all sorts, to build up and extend their holding of external assets. The level of external assets and the various measures taken to guard them can cause very great difficulty if you have not a certain amount of them to meet your liabilities as they accrue.

The alternative method of meeting a situation where imports are exceeding exports is a very crude one to take. You had a situation within the last year where the British, because their external assets were running down, had to put on a crude limitation on expenditure in European countries which resulted in the imports from those countries being cut down by £350,000,000. That had its effect on the countries from which they imported and also on the people who were distributing and consuming the £350,000,000 worth of goods formerly imported.

I have here a note that I made when Deputy McGilligan was speaking. He referred to our "scandalous treatment of civil servants and others during the war years", but when he came in as a member of Government he said that "the wages and salaries were as high as social justice demanded". To-day, however, he had the impudence to talk about the scandalous treatment ofcivil servants and others over the war years.

He put in an expert to try and clear out some of them.

I have here a number of other points that I would like to answer but I do not want to keep Deputies from getting their trains. I do want to say this: that the people of this country can rest assured that this Government is doing as much as it can with the means at its disposal not only to ensure the welfare of the people in their daily lives but to use as much as it can of the country's resources to build up the capital of the country so that our children and our children's children will have a higher standard of life than that which was handed on to us.

Question put and agreed to.
Agreed to take the remaining stages now.
Bill put through Committee, reported without amendment, received for final consideration and passed.

This is a Money Bill for the purposes of Article 22 of the Constitution.

The Dáil adjourned at 5.2 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Wednesday, 25th March, 1953

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