But for the benefit of Deputies I should like to mention that in a number of counties the Special Employment Schemes Office took over in recent years the administration of rural improvement schemes, minor employment schemes and bog development schemes. As is well known to Deputies, these schemes were administered previously by the various county councils and their staffs. When they were being taken over—my own countywas one of the first—the director of the Special Employment Schemes Office notified his staff that they were to get in touch with the county engineer and find out if he could recommend a number of gangers who had experience of that particular type of work. That was done in County Galway and also in County Kerry, County Clare, County Roscommon, County Mayo and, I think, the North Riding of Tipperary. On the recommendation, in the main, of the county engineers or their assistants who had experience of supervising the work the gangers were recruited. I do not think there has been any change since then or that there have been any dismissals except in cases of glaring inefficiency, and I think they are very few and far between.
Deputy Palmer also suggested that the beneficiaries should be allowed to appoint the gangers on rural improvement schemes. The office has never accepted that the beneficiaries should be allowed to have anything to do with the appointment of gangers or have the appointment of their own gangers and I hold with the view of the office in regard to that. I believe it is better, if it is possible to find an experienced man, to bring in a man from a distance rather than to have any of the beneficiaries given the supervision of a rural improvement scheme. In fact, I am always in favour, if it is possible— in some cases it is not—of bringing a man from a distance of five miles, because I have long experience of gangs of men and of work being carried out by the Congested Districts Board, the Estates Commissioners, the Land Commission and other Departments. It is a case of familiarity breeding contempt in many instances. The local man might be the very best man for the job and carry it out with great skill, but, at the same time, very often there is a certain amount of resentment and, perhaps, a good deal of abuse if he asserts his authority to see there is discipline and that the work is being carried out properly. For that reason, I am all in favour of bringing the ganger over a certain distance. I do not believe in having a gangeremployed within one, two or three miles of where he resides. It is a good rule, where it can be applied, to bring them from outside the five mile limit, the limit prescribed so far as it is possible to be observed by the Special Employment Schemes Office.
I explained how the gangers were recruited in the first instance. I have stated that in my opinion 99 per cent. of them have given satisfactory service and, perhaps, even a higher percentage than that. Any other gangers that are required are being recruited. The instructions to the local inspectors in all cases are that preference should be given to persons who have previously been employed on similar schemes and who have given proof of their competence and trustworthiness. Where a suitable ganger with previous experience is not available, preference is given to any suitable person submitted by the employment exchange, and if no suitable person is available from that source, the inspector is free to appoint the most suitable and competent person available from any other source provided that (1) if there are two or more equally competent and suitable persons, preference will be given to the person who appears to be in the most necessitous circumstances; (2) other things being equal, Irish-speaking gangers are given preference, particularly in the Gaeltacht; and (3) favourable consideration is given to demobilised members of the Defence Forces.
That is the system by which the gangers are recruited, and I think it is a very fair system with which nobody can find fault. If any cases are brought to my notice of a ganger showing favour or trying to show favour or discriminating as between one person and another, I can tell you that I will have that investigated by the director and his staff. It will get a very thorough investigation, too.
Deputy Murphy of West Cork said that we were sending out notices more frequently now than in the past informing people that the work applied for was not suitable and did not justify an expenditure of public funds. We are not doing any such thing. There is no truth in the suggestion.It is an exaggeration. The office judge a scheme on its own merits and, where a letter is issued, it may be taken that the office consider the scheme to be uneconomic in itself and that they would not be prepared to carry it out in any circumstances.
In regard to the rural improvement schemes, it was mentioned, I think, by Deputy Murphy, that contributions in kind should be accepted. He suggested materials and free labour. That would be impracticable because you could not compel beneficiaries to provide free labour. If eight people turned up one morning for that particular day's work it might happen that there would be only five of them the next morning. You could have no proper system of carrying on the work if you were to have it on that basis.
So far as materials are concerned, it has often been suggested to me in my own constituency that there was suitable material quite close to a particular road and that it was waste of money to transport material over a long distance. The inspector takes all that into consideration. In the first instance, he takes into consideration the type of material he requires for the particular road. He wants to have a particular kind of gravel for that road which is not, perhaps, the type of gravel that is convenient. In the second place, he often finds it is much more economic to get contractors to bring that gravel over a distance and dump it on the road than employ the men who would ordinarily be on the job working under a ganger, to employ them in a pit even if it was only 300 yards away from where the scheme was located because, when material is brought by a contractor, he has to supply his own men and lorry. He brings the material and dumps it on the road. In that instance, the ganger has constant supervision over all his gang on the road, while, if he had them in two different places, he could not supervise them all at the one time. There would be divided supervision in that case. That is another reason why sometimes, even although it would not be free and even were it free, it would be cheaper in the long run to bring the gravel from adistance and get a contractor to take it there by lorry.
Deputy Murphy also mentioned that it would be most desirable, where minor relief schemes are carried out, to have it on a rotational basis. The rotational basis was in operation here for a number of years and there were very strong criticisms of that scheme. It was altered and I think that the alteration has proved much more satisfactory than the rotational system. The giving of three days to one set of men and knocking them off and then giving three days to another is, in my opinion, not satisfactory. It is better, anyhow, to give them one week.
That was the viewpoint of my predecessors when they changed it and I do not propose to go back to the rotational system. I should like Deputy Murphy to bear in mind that if a scheme is likely to continue for a relatively long period it is provided that the gangs should be changed at the end of each period of six weeks. That is about the best we can do. I think that would be more satisfactory than having the old system that was so much criticised in this House.
It was mentioned in many instances useful schemes had been held up because of the fact that you meet an individual who is not willing to sign the consent form. It has been suggested that compulsory powers should be taken in that case. We find so many areas where there are no difficulties of that kind whatsoever and no objection that it is much better to go on with the limited amount of money we have at our disposal and carry out the schemes for which we can get the consent voluntarily and without objection than to recommend to the Government —I doubt if this or any other Government would do it—to have compulsory powers brought into existence in order to compel people to surrender what to them, perhaps, may appear a right.
In connection with works of this kind, you may find that a landholder, whose land has to be encroached on for the widening of a road or something of that kind, will object, and, perhaps, would have a right to do so.We find that, in nearly all these cases, if some of the local people interested approach the person who is objecting—his objection may be due to some petty local jealousy—and talk to him in a reasonable way very often he will prove amenable and will agree to sign the consent form. But, whether the consent form is signed or not, if the widening of a road means that an objector's land has not to be encroached upon, that does not mean that the work is held up. Our people go on with the work whether the person signs the consent form or not.
Deputy Flynn of Kerry wants me to proceed with the rural improvement schemes. We are proceeding with them as rapidly as we can all over the country. We have a huge number of applications. In some instances the local contribution has been forwarded. At any rate, when we get the amount of money provided for in the Estimate to cover these and other approved schemes, even those for which the local contribution has not yet come to hand, there will be no delay whatever in proceeding with them. I may say that there has not been any delay.
There were a great number of matters mentioned by other Deputies. Many of them were not relevant to this Vote but were concerned with other Departments. Deputy O. Flanagan, as usual, painted a very doleful picture of the country, particularly of his own constituency and of the country in general. He talked about the amount of poverty that existed and said that nothing was being done. He also talked about the huge amount of unemployment in Laois-Offaly. I can hardly understand how there can be unemployment there. There may be some unemployment in the towns. In Offaly, there are not very big towns, except Tullamore. It is a fairly large sized town, but I should point out that a big number of works are being carried out in that area. I do not think that the Brosna drainage scheme has been fully completed. I also know that Bord na Móna are carrying out some very big schemes there. I cannot understand, therefore, how, in these circumstances, local people can be unemployed in view of the fact thatpeople are coming up from other counties to Offaly, Laois and Kildare to work with Bord na Móna. It may be that you have a type of people there for whom employment cannot be found under the Special Employment Schemes Office. I am referring to craftsmen and people of that kind who, as a result of the machine age, are now unable to procure suitable employment. I do not know of any other type of men, willing to work, who would not be able to find employment with Bord na Móna. I am almost certain that Bord na Móna would be inclined to give preference to local people rather than to outsiders from Galway, Mayo, Clare and elsewhere who are going up there. I have already dealt with the question the Deputy raised about the condition of the roads in the turfproducing counties. I think that a good deal has been done about that.
Deputy Davin said that I could not justify the reduction of £100,000 in the Estimate. I think I indicated in my opening statement the reasons for the reduction, and pointed out that there was really no reduction in expenditure nor is there likely to be. Deputy Cowan spoke about a considerable amount of overlapping by Departments in the carrying out of schemes. Perhaps that is so, but it is something that I have no control over. I am responsible only for the work done by the Special Employment Schemes Office. Deputy Hickey spoke about more money being required and said it was the financial system that was responsible for the present position. Well, I am not competent to go into that question. I am not a financial expert or wizard.