Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 5 Nov 1953

Vol. 142 No. 10

Supplies and Services (Temporary Provisions) Act, 1946 (Continuance) Bill, 1953—Second Stage.

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time.

The Supplies and Services Act is due to expire on the 31st of December and the purpose of this Bill is to continue it in force for a further period, namely until the 31st March, 1955. As I informed the House when speaking on the Estimate for the Department of Industry and Commerce, the Government has decided that this will be the final extension of the life of the Supplies and Services Act and that it will be permitted to lapse not later than the date mentioned in this Bill, namely the 31st March, 1955. Each Minister concerned with the operation of power under the Supplies andServices Act has been directed by the Government to review these powers and to decide whether they are to be let go or, if they have got to be retained after the 31st March, 1955, the form of legislation which is to be prepared and submitted to the House to give these powers on a permanent basis.

At the present time the main controls exercised under the authority of the Supplies and Services Act are administered by five Departments of Government. The Department of Agriculture is utilising Orders under the Act for the purpose of maintaining certain controls relating to the dairying industry and the marketing and distribution of agricultural produce. The Department of Finance operates under the authority of Supplies and Services Orders exchange control, guarantees on borrowing by certain statutory bodies and the regulation of tobacco clearances from bond. The Department of Local Government is using the Supplies and Services Act for certain road traffic matters and to authorise acquisition of bogland by local authorities. The Department of Social Welfare under this Act operates cheap fuel schemes, food centres and footwear schemes and the provision of school meals. The Department of Industry and Commerce maintains price control, which is under the authority of the Supplies and Services Act, and suspends the operation of certain customs duties and quotas and exercises a control over exports.

Some progress has already been made in the preparation of the necessary permanent legislation to replace the Supplies and Services Act Orders. There is the State Guarantees Bill before the Oireachtas which will, if enacted, replace the powers at present exercised by the Minister for Finance under the Supplies and Services Act; and apart from the permanent legislation for price control to which I referred yesterday I hope to have available for the consideration of the House soon a Bill consolidating the powers required to maintain export controls. I am, therefore, on this occasion asking the Dáil to continuethe Supplies and Services Act for a final period of 15 months. It is a slightly longer period than the usual extension of one year. That longer period is, we think, necessary to allow time for the preparation and consideration by the Dáil of whatever alternative legislation may be needed when the Act has expired.

It has been the practice of the Dáil for the last few years when this Supplies and Services Bill has come up in the autumn session of each year to discuss the general economic situation and the general economic policy of the Government in power.

I submit on a point of order that whatever may have been the practice in other years it is hardly appropriate to have a general economic debate on this Bill now in view of the fact that many of the main Estimates for the year are at present before the House.

I cannot see how on a Bill like this there can be a comprehensive debate of the kind intended by the Deputy. The Deputy must relate his remarks to what is in the Bill.

I must insist, subject, of course, to your ruling, that I am not to be muzzled by keeping this debate to the mere technicalities contained in this Bill.

There is no question of muzzling any Deputy.

I suggest that the Minister is trying to keep the discussion on this Bill within a very narrow orbit and that that is something which has not been the custom up to now.

A Leas-Cheann Comhairle, I resent that remark by Deputy Costello. I am not trying to regulate the course of this debate at all. I am merely asking you to rule on what is relevant.

What was done in previous years? Is it not a fact thatthis Bill has hitherto been discussed from a very wide point of view?

On all occasions the Chair has endeavoured to keep the speeches made by Deputies within the ambit of the business before the House.

I intend to direct my remarks within the ambit of this Bill. However, I think it should be pointed out that coming within the ambit of this Bill are such questions as price control and the level of prices and such questions as the control of employment and the level of employment.

There is no question of the control of employment.

Of course, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, I will bow to your ruling. May I, however, point out that in 1950 a Supplies and Services Bill was presented to this House and that a lengthy debate which ranged over many weeks of parliamentary time took place on the subject of employment? I wish to be permitted to speak on this Bill on the employment situation.

On a point of order. I submit, Sir, that the employment situation does not arise on this Bill and, further, that Deputy Costello cannot make on this Bill the speech which he failed to deliver when the Estimate for the Department of Industry and Commerce was under consideration by this House.

It has always been the practice on the Supplies and Services Bill to debate everything that comes within the ambit of price control and price levels and their effect on employment and the cost of living. That has always been the practice.

I have raised no objections in regard to a discussion on prices or price control on this Bill.

Employment has hitherto been part of the discussion on this Bill.

I suggest that Deputy Costello continuewith his speech. The Chair will intervene if it thinks necessary.

May I point out that the fact that we have just concluded the debate on the Estimate for the Department of Industry and Commerce does not in any way vitiate any remarks I might make now on the level of employment and on the question of prices? These matters may arise on the Estimate for the Department of Industry and Commerce but they also arise on this Bill.

May I say, Sir, that no power exercised under the Supplies and Services Act has a bearing on general questions of economic policy or on the level of employment?

The Chair cannot see that Deputy Costello would be relevant in discussing unemployment now. He would be entitled to discuss price control but not unemployment.

Unemployment is a sore point with the Minister.

It can be discussed on half a dozen Estimates.

It has always been the practice to discuss unemployment on the Supplies and Services Bill. Why is there a departure from that practice this year?

One reason why I asked the Chair to rule more stringently on this Bill is the fact that the Estimates are before the Dáil for consideration this session, and that that has never been so before.

It was the same last year. Token Estimates were taken after the Summer Recess last year on which all the same matters could be discussed. On that occasion Deputies were permitted to discuss employment and the effect of prices on the cost of living and on employment when the Supplies and Services Bill was before this House.

The debate on the Supplies and ServicesBill has always been very wide but it must be on supplies and services.

I want to direct my remarks principally towards the unemployment situation and towards the cost of living. I should like to state also that these matters were discussed on this Bill last year; they were discussed on the Bill the year before that and they were discussed at great length in 1950.

In relation to the Bill?

Yes. I think there may be some reason other than a desire to cut this debate short for the Minister's suggestion that I should not——

I resent these insulting suggestions by Deputy Costello. I think the Chair will have to rule on that matter. I have raised a question and asked for a ruling by the Chair. I do not care what Deputy Costello talks about provided it is relevant to the Bill. That is all that I am insisting upon.

The Minister would not give me time to finish what I was saying. I was saying that I think there may be some reason other than a desire to contain this debate for the Minister's suggestion that I should not talk on unemployment on this Bill. I believe the Government do not wish the full facts of the unemployment situation to be discussed. I believe they would like the question of unemployment to be——

Deputy Costello had an opportunity of discussing unemployment on the Estimate for the Department of Industry and Commerce. Why did he not do so? I submit, Sir, that Deputy Costello must relate his discussion to the Bill that is now before the Dáil.

We have always had the right to discuss unemployment on this Bill.

And the Minister cannot cross-examine and interrupt a Deputy like that.

I want again to point out to Deputy Costello that unemployment does not directly arise on this Bill.

In the course of my remarks, I propose to give some account of the unemployment situation as it has arisen in this country in the past year or so, since this Bill was passed last year. I think it is important that Deputies should be reminded of the level of employment in this State over the past year or so, and before that. It is important that we should appreciate the really serious unemployment situation which has been facing this country in the past year or so and the importance of bringing up this subject for discussion as frequently as possible as I feel it cannot be stressed too often. It is the duty not only of the Government for the time being but of every Deputy in this House to keep an active interest in and a watchful eye upon the level of employment and industrial activity in this country so that, when we find the Government of the day at fault, we will be in a position to point out as strongly as we think proper where the Government have failed and why we believe the economic policies of the Government are at fault.

On a point of order. I submit, Sir, that the only matters that Deputy Costello can discuss on this Bill are the Orders made under it and its administration.

The Minister knows that he did not confine his discussion in that way in 1950.

And the Minister should have added, the absence of Orders that should have been made.

The Deputy can discuss the misuse or the non-use of the powers contained in the Bill.

The Minister was allowed to make his point of order without being interrupted. He might, at least, afford the same courtesy to me now. The Minister has often said that, after the Budget, the Suppliesand Services Bill is the most potent weapon in regard to the shaping of Government policy. Being the most potent weapon for the shaping of Government policy, it is clearly in order to discuss on the Bill the way in which Government policy has or has not been shaped.

The Chair feels that Deputy Costello would be relevant in discussing unemployment in so far as it is affected by the Bill which is now being considered by this House, but that a general debate on unemployment would not be relevant on the Supplies and Services Bill.

That is all Deputy Costello wants to do.

You are aware, Sir, I am sure, of the practice which existed heretofore of discussing the unemployment situation on this Bill. The relevancy of that matter to this Bill is very clear. As the Minister has frequently pointed out, this Bill gives very wide powers—indeed, almost autocratic powers—to the Government to deal with the economic situation. In that regard, I am directing my remarks—and I submit that, in so doing, I am relevant on this Bill— towards the unemployment situation as it has existed in the past year or so.

I am not creating a precedent in so doing. Unfortunately I have not got the Official Reports with me, but I looked them up and I found that last year's debate was a very lengthy one on unemployment and the cost of living, as was the debate the year before and the year before that. I am relating my remarks to this Bill and suggesting that the reason it is being continued for another year is that it gives tremendous—almost autocratic, as I have said—powers to the Government to make regulations for the supply of goods and services and we are entitled to comment on the lack of certain regulations, or on the fact that certain regulations were made which should not have been made. We are entitled to draw deductions to the effect that, as a result of the failure of the Government to utilise the Bill, unemployment has increased. What Iam endeavouring to point out is the course of events over the course of the past year since the passing of a similar Bill and to point out that we have had a critical unemployment situation because the Minister has not utilised the powers given to him in the Bill.

The importance of the unemployment situation must be obvious to the Government and to every Deputy, and it is no good saying, as has been said recently and earlier, that this Government is in favour of full employment, of increasing production and of increasing exports. These are matters on which every Deputy will agree. We are all agreed that the powers conferred by the Bill should be utilised to see that the maximum level of employment is provided in this State, and where we differ from the Government, where the Opposition join issue with the Government, is in pointing out that this end, which we all admit is a desirable end, has not been attained, and we are entitled to point out the reasons why it has not been attained.

It is no use our arguing here on questions of ends and principles on which we are all agreed. What we should be discussing here is not whether it is desirable for us to increase industrial production, because we all admit it; not whether we should be increasing agricultural production, because we all admit it; and not whether we should have full employment, because we all admit that is a desirable end, but how these should be achieved and how the Government of the day has failed to achieve them. Any Government is entitled to be judged on a very few simple facts. One of the most important of them is whether it has secured a high level of employment in the State; another is whether it has seen that prices have been maintained at a level which is not beyond the ordinary incomes of the people; and a third is the question of agricultural and industrial production. In all these spheres, if we examine the results of the past year and further back to the point at which this Government came into power, we will find that the Government has failed.

It is no use our being told that they are in favour of obtaining these ends and no use in saying that things are going to improve. There is no use wishing for a state of affairs if the right policies are not put into operation to bring about that state of affairs, and our criticism of this Government over the past two and a half years has been that the wrong policies were put into operation, and because the wrong policies were put into operation these desirable ends have not been achieved.

The past two and a half years have witnessed a striking and distressing failure of the Government to control prices and to provide for an adequate level of employment for our people. We had in June, 1951, 35,000 people unemployed, and over that month we had reached an average level of unemployment which was the lowest which this State ever experienced. After the change of Government, and coming into 1952, we had that situation, in which we were getting very close to a position of near full employment, reversed. As Deputies know, there is always a cyclical upward movement in unemployment in the winter months and the summer months are usually the best as regards unemployment figures. If we compare the best months of 1952 and the best months of 1953, we will see the lamentable failure of this Government to utilise the very great powers it has to bring about full employment in this State. Unemployment in June, 1951, was 35,000; in June, 1952, it was 45.9 thousand; and in June of this year, 63.9 thousand—an increase of 28,000 on two years previously. If we compare the winter months —the bad months—we will see a similar increase in unemployment. In February, 1951, shortly before the change of Government, the unemployment figure was 65,000; in February, 1952, it had gone up to 74,000; and in March of this year—the worst month for many years that this State has experienced—the figure was 85.5 thousand. We had in this country in March of last year 11 per cent. of our industrial insurable workers out of employment, which I regard as a scandalous situation and one which should notobtain in a Catholic and Christian State.

We have had excuses from this Government time and again for the rise in prices and in unemployment, and we have had this extraordinary situation that over the past two and a half years we have had rising prices and rising unemployment, and every time rising prices were mentioned the Government said they were due to the post-Korean boom, the post-Korean inflation; and every time rising unemployment was mentioned the Government said it was due to the post-Korean deflation, the post-Korean slump. They have tried to have it both ways. I went to the trouble—and I suggest that other Deputies should do so too—of comparing the figures of unemployment in other States over the past two and a half years. If Deputies look at the figures given in the O.E.E.C. report, the recent statistical report, they will see these startling figures that this country has had the worst percentage increase in unemployment since 1951 of any western European country, and that several of them—many of them comparable with us, such as small countries like Denmark—have had reductions in the level of unemployment during that period. Any examination of what has occurred in other countries, any examination of the figures in our country, must show that this Government has failed to maintain the level of employment and that other European countries have been more successful than ours in this respect.

The Deputy seems to be discussing general Government economic policy. He cannot do that on the Supplies and Services Bill. The Bill does not purport to provide powers to deal with unemployment and I feel that the Deputy is going very wide.

When you say, Sir, that the Bill does not propose to provide services for unemployment I submit that the powers under the Supplies and Services Bill are for noother purpose than that of maintaining employment in special circumstances, of keeping down the cost of living and of maintaining production in the country.

Perhaps the Deputy would relate his remarks to the Bill.

What I have been doing is showing the level of unemployment as it has risen in the past two and a half years.

How is this related to the Bill?

In the same way as the Minister related it to the Bill in 1950.

The question of 1950 does not arise to-day.

On a point of order. We are asked to continue temporary powers to the Government over the control of supplies and services and we are asked to do that for no other purpose than to reduce the possibility of unemployment, to help to increase employment, to help to increase production and to keep down the burden of the cost of living on the people. There is no other purpose in this Bill.

The extraordinary powers given to the Government to deal with the unemployment situation are contained in this Bill and that is how with your permission, Sir, I propose to relate my remarks on unemployment to this Bill. However, I have said what I wished to say on the unemployment situation.

I want to pass now to a second matter, the second striking failure of the Government, which has arisen in connection with the control of prices. Quite clearly that is a matter which comes within the orbit of this Bill and it has been a subject for discussion every time the Bill has come before the House in the last three or four years. The cost-of-living index figure in this country was 109 in the June quarter of 1951, and it had increased to 125 in the September quarter of thisyear—an increase of 14 per cent. It is not irrelevant at this point to remind the House that one of the clauses in the programme published by the Government before they came into office and when they were endeavouring to get the support of the Independent Deputies, was a promise to maintain an effective system of price control. It is quite clear that there has not been an effective system of price control for the last two and a half years. The fact that the cost of living has increased by 14 per cent. in two and a half years is ample proof, if proof were needed, that the Government has failed to maintain price control. Their failure has been a lamentable one and has wrought great hardship amongst the people of the country.

Again we have had the excuse that the rise in the cost of living was due to the post-Korean war inflation. It was alleged that we had a world increase in prices due to the post-Korean war situation, but the facts are against any such interpretation or any such excuse for the rise in the cost of living. The import index figure is the means by which we can find how that situation influenced the cost of living. I think it is worth pointing out that the highest point reached by our import price index figure occurred in September, 1951, over two years, when it stood at 324.1 points. Since that time our import prices have been going down, and the latest figure I have been able to get, that for July of this year, shows that the import price figure stood at 284.8, a reduction of nearly 40 points in two years. We have the extraordinary situation that during these two years import prices have been declining by as much as 40 points but, in spite of that decline, the cost of living has been going up here.

It is also interesting to note that the index figure for wholesale prices reached its highest point in December of last year, and the latest figure for July shows a decline of eight points. Despite that decline, since December of last year, the cost of living went up by two points in the same period. Again I think it is worth while to make a comparison with the experienceof other European countries in the last two and a half years.

Notice taken that 20 Deputies were not present; House counted and 20 Deputies being present,

I am not so optimistic as to hope that the advent of a few extra Deputies to the Government Benches is going to help me to convert them.

There is only one Labour Deputy present.

You have 72 Deputies and it is the Government's duty to provide a quorum for the House.

At any rate Deputy O'Leary may have done useful service in providing me with an opportunity of pointing out to a few of the Deputies who have come in——

There is only one Labour Deputy present.

——how the cost of living stands in other European countries. The importance of these figures must be obvious to Deputies because the excuse that has been made by Government spokesmen for the rise in the cost of living in the last two and a half years has been the post-Korean war inflation or world events of one sort or another. The rise in the cost of living in this country has been blamed on these factors but it is a remarkable fact that this alleged Korean war inflation, which has caused a 14 per cent. rise in the cost of living here, was not found in other European countries with the one exception of Greece. Again, I should like Deputies to look at the recent statistical report of O.E.E.C. and they will note that since 1951 there has been a greater percentage increase in the cost of living in Ireland than in any other western European country included in that report with the one exception of Greece. That is an extraordinary fact.

We, of course, know that modern Governments in democratic States have very wide powers in regard to prices and the level of prices generally,and our criticism of this Government has been that they have not utilised the powers, that they have badly administered the powers which it is proposed to give them in this Bill and which they had for the last two and a half years. As a result of their economic policy and of their failure to grapple with the question of rising prices we have experienced in this country a rise in the cost of living comparable with that of no European country bar Greece. The figures are remarkable. The increase in the cost of living for the comparable period in Switzerland was 2 per cent.; in Denmark 3 per cent.; in Germany it remained static; in Italy there was an increase of 6 per cent.; in Norway an increase of 7 per cent.; in France, and surely our economy cannot be judged by the French economy on a similar standard, the increase was 12 per cent. Our increase during that period was 14 per cent., and during that period we had a Fianna Fáil Government.

Deputies must be aware when dealing with this question of prices that one of the main reasons why prices have increased over the last two years was the deliberate action of the Government in their Budget of last year in cutting the food subsidies. When discussing this problem of the rising cost of living in this country we must bear in mind always that the cost of living was deliberately increased by the Government in April, 1951, and that that automatic increase in the cost of living, due to the cutting of the food subsidies, was followed by the cost inflation which we again experienced with the rising wages demands and a second rise in the cost of living. I think that we are entitled to question the decision of the Government in bringing about the rise in the cost of living by their deliberate action in 1951 and to ask the Government if the policy then enshrined in the Budget speech of the Minister in 1951 is still the policy of the present Government.

The Deputy is getting away from the Bill. He is discussing general Government policy.

I raised the question of the cost of living in the last two and a half years. I hope that the Minister will take the opportunity which this debate gives him to make a statement in regard to his policy on this question of the cost of living. I was dealing with the policy of the Government up to the present time which has resulted in the large increase in the cost of living which I have stated was as a direct result of the Government policy enshrined in the Budget of 1951.

What relation has that to the Bill before the House? We are not discussing general Government policy.

It has this relation, that this Bill gives wide powers to the Government in relation to price control. The Government failed to exercise them or were miserably inefficient in exercising them for the last two and a half years. I am asking at this stage if the Government are going to change their policy and, as I was saying, this is a matter which is not only of interest to Deputies on the Second Reading of this Bill but of vital importance to the people outside.

We have been carrying on here passing Supplies and Services Bills for the last two years under the present Administration. Each year that these Bills have been passed we have been dealing with the Government policy as it was then enshrined in the Budget statements and in the statements of Ministers at other times as well. If there is a change of policy, I am asking that the Minister should tell us what it is. I am asking that, not because we are academically interested here, but because the people outside have been suffering from the rise in the cost of living for the last two and a half years. The deliberate Government policy which is relevant to this Bill has been to reduce consumption. The deliberate Government policy which arises on this Bill has been to reduce imports, and I am asking has there been a change in that policy. I was trying to urge on the Government to change their policy in regardto the manner in which they utilised the powers given under this Bill, to endeavour to reverse the trend and the policy which they had in the last two and a half years, and to increase consumption in this State and to increase imports.

One of the bogies of the present Government has been their fear of imports. One of the ways in which they have used their powers or failed to use their powers under this Bill has been the manner in which they have deliberately sought to cut down imports. As the House knows, they were remarkably successful in that policy. As the House also knows, such a policy was regarded by us as being unnecessary and undesirable and as being a policy which would naturally lead to the hardships we have experienced in the last two and a half years. You cannot reduce consumption without reducing employment and you cannot raise the cost of living without reducing the purchasing power of the people. If you deliberately set out to reduce imports by reducing the power to consume in the country, then you will have the results that we have experienced in the last two and a half years. Not only we on this side of the House but the people throughout the length and breadth of the country want to know if that policy is finished.

The fundamental error which has been behind the whole Government policy was contained in the White Paper on the balance of external trade issued in 1951. The whole basis for the present policy of the Government was the fear of the large imports which were experienced in 1951 and the fear, which was contained in that White Paper, that exports would not expand. We have debated the position of our balance of payments before on the White Paper of 1951. We pointed out then that our imports in that year of 1951 were extraordinary and excessive and would not be continued in the following year. We also pointed out that the figures then available to us and to the Government showed that exports must expand in 1952, as, indeed, they did. We pointed out then that the fear of the Governmentregarding the balance of trade and the deficit on our balance of payments was unwarranted.

We pointed out in the Budget of the following year that it was unnecessary to reduce consumption in order to bring about a better equilibrium in our external payments. I believe that the deterioration of our economic position over the last two and a half years has flowed from the misconception of our balance of payments situation and has resulted from the desire of the Government to reduce imports which they brought about not by import restrictions but, as was stated by the Minister in his Budget speech of last year, by a policy of reducing consumption in this State.

I want that policy reversed. I want the policy of reducing imports changed. I think this country can import many million pounds more worth of goods both of a consumption and of a raw material nature than it did last year or than it is doing this year. The justification for increasing our imports brought the remarkable expansion in our agricultural exports last year and again this year—an expansion which we pointed out in 1951 would come about.

The position of near equilibrium, which was arrived at last year—we had a deficit of £8.9 million in our balance of payments—had this striking result: that last year this State accumulated sterling assets. We had this Government, when pressed for its views on the subject, stating that it was in favour of the prudent repatriation of sterling assets, a policy upon which we certainly agreed but which the Government were very slow to make any definite statement on. The Government stated, however, that it was in favour of the repatriation of sterling assets.

Our contention is that the only way that you can bring about a repatriation of sterling assets is by a deficit in the balance of payments. If it is the end of your policy to bring about a repatriation of sterling assets that is usually done not by reducing imports but by deliberately having a planneddeficit in the balance of payments, a policy which we advocated in the past.

I think it is noteworthy that we have had this strange conflict between theory and practice. We have had the Government stating that they are in favour of the repatriation of sterling assets and, in fact, piling up sterling assets. Admittedly, it was a small sum last year but the latest figures in regard to the balance of payments published in The General Statistical Quarterlyfor June demonstrated that there was an increase in our sterling assets last year. I am fully aware that it is always dangerous to prophesy on economic factors. Indeed, the dangers of prophesying were demonstrated by the Government's White Paper of 1951. I think the figures which are available at the present time show that this year again we are going to increase sterling assets.

The latest figures in respect of our imports for the first nine months of this year show that our exports are at £81,000,000. Our exports are, in fact, going beyond the level at which they were last year. But even if they only maintain the same level in the last three months of this year as they maintained in the last three months of last year, our exports are going to be many millions more than last year. On the other hand, it is clear that our imports are, at the present time, running at slightly less than they were last year. In recent months there has been an increase in our imports but, even allowing for an increase, it appears likely that our total imports are going to be only slightly over what they were last year.

I think it is possible at this stage to forecast that the deficit in our trade balance is going to be less than it was last year. Of course, it is impossible to know what the outrun of the year will be on the other items of current account, invisible exports and imports. They have been running round a surplus of £61,000,000 for the past few years. If we continue to have a favourable surplus on invisible account of £61,000,000, it is quite clear that this year we are going to have a very small deficit in the balance of payments and we aregoing to increase once again our sterling assets.

That is a policy which I am against. I am against a policy of increasing sterling assets. I am against a policy of getting an equilibrium in our balance of payments. I am in favour of a policy of planned deficits in our balance of payments in order to repatriate our sterling assets. That is the only way it can be done.

Will the Deputy relate all that to the Supplies and Services Bill?

The power under this Bill is in respect of imports and exports. If the Government misuses that power or if it does not use it at all we are entitled to comment on it. That is how I am attempting to relate what I say to the Supplies and Services Bill.

The Deputy seems to be discussing financial policy.

One of the vital things in connection with the Supplies and Services Bill is its relation with exchange control. It is imperative that we should have perfect latitude of discussion to deal with all the matters affected by exchange control, particularly our balance of trade policy.

There is no question of Government financial policy.

This is the Second Reading of the Supplies and Services Bill. Nobody knows better than the Minister how deeply the matters about which Deputy Costello is speaking now are affected by the powers under this Bill.

On a point of order. Is it not a fact that the whole economic policy of the Government is enshrined in this Bill?

No. It is not.

Of course it is but you want to hide it.

The Deputy can say what he likes on the various Estimates yet to be debated by the Dáil.

The Minister said what he liked on a similar Bill in 1950.

Indeed, I did not.

The Official Reports show that the Minister talked about unemployment, the cost of living and the trade position of the country.

I am sure that if I was irrelevant the Chair would have corrected me.

The Minister made a lengthy tirade about the cost of living going up two points.

It was going up so rapidly that the Coalition Government got into a panic and rushed an amendment to the Bill.

The cost of living went up only nine points in three and a half years of the inter-Party Government but it went up 14 points under this Government.

It went up nine points last year.

I raised no question about the relevancy of the cost of living.

Why try to restrict the discussion?

This is not Budget policy. Budget policy can be discussed at Budget time.

I am not discussing Budget policy.

It sounded like that to me.

I am discussing the policy of the Government in reducing imports. I said I was against it.

It is quite clear that the Government has also failed in regard to another very importantaspect of our economic field, a portion of the working of a Government which is almost vital to the existence of a high level of employment in this State. The figures which were recently published some months ago show that the gross physical capital formation in the State last year declined over 1951 by 14 per cent.

I think that the failure of the country to increase, in real terms, its gross capital formation last year was one of the greatest failures of the Government in regard to its economic policies. Deputies, of course, know the importance of capital formation in a State, and they know the importance of expanding capital formation every year. It is the only means by which you can bring about a satisfactory, a stable level of employment.

We had to start off by getting rid of your 4,000,000 square yards of cloth.

The Minister knows that there has been unemployment in every industry producing transportable goods.

We cured that by stopping unnecessary imports.

Any time the Minister discusses the question of unemployment, he always goes back to the textile trade. I think it is worth pointing out—if Deputies look at the Trade Journalthey can see it for themselves—that there is not an industry producing transportable goods in the State which had not a reduction in employment last year. One of the reasons why there is such very large unemployment in the building industry at the present time is because of the slowing down of capital formation in the State.

And the other is the high cost of living?

Capital formation has been slowed down. There can be absolutely no doubt about that. I do not know whether the Minister regards that as desirable or not. If hedoes not, will he tell us how he is going to increase it? It seems to me that the drop off in employment last year in, as I say, every industry producing transportable goods was directly attributable to the falling off in gross physical capital formation which occurred last year. We have not the figures for this year of gross physical capital formation, but I sincerely hope that there has been an increase over last year. The signs at the present time, however, do not give much grounds for hope. This country is most anxious to know what steps the Government are going to take to deal with the fact that capital formation declined last year by as much as 14 per cent., whether it is increasing this year, and whether they propose to take one of the many steps which they could take to see that it is encouraged and fostered.

Another aspect of Government policy which, I think, is worth commenting on is the fact that last year, for the first time since the war, there was a very large flight of capital from this country. Deputies know that one of the means by which we help to bridge the deficits in the balance of payments, and one of the means by which we finance these deficits, is by the inflow of foreign capital, of one sort or another, to the country. That foreign capital has been coming in for years, and it has been assisting us in maintaining our external position. The movement of capital into this country in 1949 was £15,000,000; in 1950, it was £13,000,000, and in 1951, it was £15,000,000, while last year there was a striking decline in the inflow of capital. It amounted only to £12,000,000. An even more striking figure than that is the fact that there was a very large overflow of capital from this country. In 1949, a little over £1,000,000 left this country; in 1950, only £74,000, and in 1951, £174,000, while last year over £3,000,000 left this country.

That was to pay back the money that you borrowed.

From America.

This has nothing to do with the American dollars at all.

What was it? You do not understand it. Read it again.

Will the Minister say how much was paid to the Americans last year?

It is set out in the Book of Estimates.

I suppose the Minister can interject, but I would ask him to look at item 9 there. He knows very well what item 9 is.

Foreign capital coming in—the American Loan.

No. There is another category altogether for the American loan in the balance of payments table. This has to do with such matters as the insurance companies and capital movements of that sort by private individuals.

He knows that well.

I hope he does. The Minister has raised this question of the American loan. I think I am entitled to say that it was a most extraordinary thing to have this present Government complaining about it. Admittedly, the first time they complained was when they got into office. They made no complaint at all at the time the Marshall Aid Loan was granted, or after it for many years.

But we had the extraordinary position of the Government complaining about the American borrowings and loans from the American Government after they came into office. Very recently, the Minister was in America and in Canada, and he was asking the Americans for American capital to come into this country.

On certain conditions.

One of the conditions would be that you would pay at least 5 per cent for it. Does the Minister think that American businessmen would invest capital here at2½ per cent. which is all that we are paying on the American loan? We had the extraordinary position of the Minister asking for American capital on which, as I say, we would have to pay at least 5 per cent.

I was not looking for loan capital but for investment.

You would have had to pay at least 5 per cent. interest on that investment here. There is no difference between a private loan and a Government loan.

There is.

The only difference would be that you would have had to pay American businessmen, who know their job, at least 5 per cent., while we were paying only 2½ per cent. on the American loan.

On a devalued currency.

We did not devalue it. Is the Minister suggesting that we were wrong in following the British £?

Do not deny what you did.

I was commenting on the fact that the Government, through its Tánaiste, had asked for American capital to come in here in the form of investment, and I was saying that we would have had to pay 5 per cent. on that, while we are paying only 2½ per cent. on the American loan.

We had the extraordinary situation of the Minister for Finance talking about foreign capital coming into this country and saying that it was a sterling debt. He used to refer to this movement of capital into the country as a sterling debt, and yet we had the Minister for Finance, when floating his recent National Loan, asking British investors to invest in it. What do we find? That his recent National Loan is the only Irish National Loan which is quoted on the London Stock Exchange.

I do not wish to be misunderstood by the Minister or by this House. I think it must be quite clear that we, on this side, would welcome a change in the economic conditions from which this country has been suffering fortwo and a half years. We would welcome a change in Government policy. We would welcome any improvement in the economy, and we are glad to see that industrial production has risen now to the level it was at in June of 1951, before the change of Government. I do not think that we can get the progress, or that this country can develop on the lines that we desire unless, as I have said, there is a change of policy by the Government from that which they have been operating over the last two and a half years.

I suggest that one of the things the Government should do is try to encourage consumption in this State and not be afraid of the imports which would result from an increase in consumption. I suggest that its policy should be directed towards increasing purchasing power in this State and not towards trying to mop it up. It would not be very difficult to reduce taxation and to help to bring about an increase in purchasing power and an increase in industrial activity.

One of the most important things that has to be done is to reduce the interest rates. Some of the ways that these ends could be brought about would be by seeing that the banks hold a larger portion of Government stocks in their portfolios than they do at present and that we would arrive at a situation, which obtains in England and America, by which the banks are holders of the State debt and not the public.

Lastly, I think one item of policy which can assist our economic situation would be that of investing some of the assets which are held by the Central Bank in Irish Government securities. The position now is that we have had a period of two and a half years of a different financial policy from that which was operating before the change of Government. We are anxious for a change. I do not think that I am speaking merely for my Party or for Opposition Deputies—I think I am speaking for the many thousands of people who have been put out of employment, or who are now under fear of being out of employment, as a result of the changed circumstances whichthis State has experienced in the last two and a half years. I think I am also speaking for the thousands of people in this State who have been hit so adversely by the rising cost of living over the last two and a half years. I think they, just as we, would welcome a change of Government policy. If it brings us back to the position of progress, of near full employment, of expanding industry and agricultural production, we certainly on this side of the House would welcome it.

I do not want to hold the House very long on this matter. Deputy Costello has put his finger on a very important point, namely, the reduction of imports which the present Government has brought about as a cardinal point in its economic policy. It is a point to which I have referred on a couple of occasions before. Government spokesmen from time to time have referred with great pride to the reduction in imports which they brought about in the last 12 months and the Minister has said that the economic position was helped by that reduction. In fact, of course, the exact opposite occurred. I would have thought that every person, whether an economist or an ordinary man in the street, would have realised that when you are dealing with industries and trade generally you are dealing with a certain volume of finished commodities or of raw materials. When raw materials are brought in, they are processed in various ways, made into manufactured articles and then sold to our people or, in certain cases, they are exported. If you cut down those imports of raw materials, you are bound to cut down the amount of manufacturing done and therefore you are bound to affect the level of employment. To say that you are bound to affect the level of employment is somewhat of an understatement: you are bound to create unemployment. That happened as a direct result of Government policy.

The Minister for Industry and Commerce cannot but be aware that that happened and that it was brought about by Government policy. It hashad the most terrible effects on trade and industry. I am glad to say that, as a result of the hammering away at that economic factor by this side of the House, the Government has somewhat changed its policy and there is more industrial activity now than there was a few months ago, or slightly more.

A Deputy

There are not more imports.

Not more imports, somebody says, but the restrictions in that respect have not gone on in the same way. The change in policy has resulted in a slight increase, but we on this side are afraid that the Government will swing back again. I might mention that, as a result of the unemployment caused by this restriction of imports, we have found ourselves with a higher level of unemployment, with more people to carry on the backs of those who are employed and consequently an increased cost of living.

What Deputy Costello said with regard to the increase in the cost of living, the comparison he made between this country and the other Western European States, is of very great significance. It is something that those on the Government Benches should take to heart. Quoting from unimpeachable sources, he told us that Greece was the only country in Western Europe which had a comparable rise in the cost of living in the last few years. I would point out to Deputies on the opposite benches that Deputy Costello has been unusually kind when he includes Greece amongst the western nations. Greece is really more of a Balkan State and we are accustomed to expecting a somewhat less skilful handling of State and economic matters by Balkan countries than we are by those of Western Europe. I personally am very sorry to see that we find ourselves in the same position as Greece, a country which may have had a glorious past, but by no stretch of the imagination can it be thought that it has a very sound economic present.

That rise in the cost of living which the last Deputy pointed out does show that certain peculiar factors have beenpresent in this country which were not present in any other European country to the same extent except, perhaps, in France, which was a few points behind us, but France has had grave economic difficulties to deal with and has had political instability of the type which I am happy to say we have not experienced so far. Again, therefore, for us to be close to the French economy in this connection is not a matter on which we can take any great pride. We have had nothing like the difficulties which post-war France has so tragically had to deal with.

We have pointed out two cardinal matters which have affected both the cost of living and the general policy of the Government in relation to economic matters, namely, the credit position and the restriction of imports. Those two things have brought about the position which has slowed down the wheels of industry and has inevitably created increased unemployment. The Government should, consequently, take all the steps that it can to mend matters in this respect.

Perhaps I know some little thing about the building industry. If you look at the over-all figures of the building industry you will see they are somewhat down. Actually the drop in figures does not really show the actual change that has come about in the building industry in the last two or three years. There is a drop shown now, but, in fact, what has happened is that local authority building has been pushed forward, so has Government building, but private building has fallen away tremendously. The net result is that there is a decrease in actual building and the Government's policy has this conflicting effect: on the one hand because of the drop in employment in the building trade the Government has, where it is the employer itself, pushed forward schemes and encouraged local authorities to go forward with schemes in order to create employment. The employment it wished to create in order to deal with the unemployment situation came about as the result of its actions, and we have the very peculiar position of one part of the Government saying: "We must push forward publicworks of all kinds in order to keep up the level of employment"; whilst on the other hand——

This does not seem to be relevant.

The next item on the agenda is the Estimate for the Minister for Local Government.

It will be a long time before we reach the next item.

Deputies would want to be quicker on their feet than Deputy Dockrell.

The policy of the Government as put forward by the Minister under this Vote has meant that there has been a slowing down of the wheels of industry and that has necessitated every branch of the Government pushing forward with schemes in order to create employment. That is the ridiculous situation which has been brought about by the Government flying in the face of economic laws and economic effects generally. I trust that the Government will take steps to see that the cost of living is dealt with and kept at the present position if not reduced and that unemployment is handled in a proper fashion.

The people for whom I speak directly in this House care very little as to the name of the Party in power or the names of the Ministers that make up the Government responsible to the members of this House and to the country. What we are concerned about and what I personally am concerned about as a fairly old member of this House is the policy of the Government of the day. This Bill, which contains more power than most members realise, merely proposes, as far as I understand, to continue the policy of this mixum-gatherum Government which came into office in June, 1952.

The question of Government policy does not arise on this Bill. The Bill is designed to continue to give certain powers in relation to supplies and services.

I realise it proposes to continue certain powers and to continuea certain policy, and what is hidden is much more important than what one can read into the Bill. The principal matter concerning the people as a whole, and particularly those living in the cities and towns, is the ever-increasing cost of living, I want to know—I do not put this as a personal matter; nor am I putting it for the purpose of scoring any political points against the Minister or his colleagues in government—why he and his colleagues have failed effectively to control the cost of living? A very definite pledge was given on that matter by the Minister himself. More emphasis was laid on that pledge by the Minister than by any of his colleagues but, notwithstanding that, people do not know to-day where they stand in relation to the cost of living. I do not say that the policy of the Government has been deliberately framed for the purpose, but it has in effect paralysed the power and the object for which trade unions were originally established. The majority of the wage earners, especially those in industrial employment are members, and rightly so, of the unions that cater for the particular industries in which they are employed. The main purpose of those unions, as originally established, was to bring the standard of living and the wages of the workers up to a figure which would enable them to maintain themselves and their dependents in decency and comfort.

That was the position to a great extent up to the commencement of the last World War but the trade unions of to-day and the leaders of the unions to-day can go in and negotiate what may be regarded and accepted by their members as a reasonable settlement so far as increased remuneration or wages are concerned, but on the following day the Minister, who is now occupying the Front Bench and his colleague the Minister for Finance, can come in here with taxation proposals and nullify the work done 24 hours previously by trade union leaders on behalf of their members. If there is anything, and it is a good thing that it did happen, that has made trade unionists and wage earners think and think hard it is thecruel, callous and revolutionary budgetary policy enunciated in the Budget of 1952.

This is not a Budget.

That made many people think, many people who had not been seriously-thinking before. The people who are to-day thinking and cursing— that is not an unparliamentary term— more than anybody else are the housekeepers and the housewives. The Minister is the ablest member of the Cabinet.

I can say the same about the Deputy in the Labour Party.

To his credit let it be said, he is an extremely hard-working member of the Cabinet. He is carrying at least three-fourths of the Cabinet on his back. I say that to emphasise another point. It is because I believe he is such a powerful and influential member of the Cabinet that I must now accuse him of responsibility for the position as we know it in relation to the cost of living to-day. Does not the Minister know perfectly well, as well as anyone sitting behind him or over here, that the by-election results, especially of the by-elections held in the urban areas, and the overwhelming majority achieved by some of the candidates who are now members of this House in those by-elections were mainly due to the overwhelming vote of the women because of the cost of living.

I do not care personally, or, if you like, politically what Government is sitting over there or who the Ministers are. All that counts as far as I am concerned and the people for whom I speak is the policy of the Government and not the personalities of those who occupy certain ministerial posts. I would welcome from the Minister— and I say this without any political prejudice or personal prejudice against the Minister; I think it is the Minister's duty to give the information to the public—the reasons why he has not been able to carry out his clear-cut pledges in relation to the cost of living.

When I came into this House in the early days and when we repeatedlyfrom the Labour Benches demanded increased old age pensions we talked about the miserable amount that the famous, or infamous, Lloyd George had given: 10/- a week in the days when our people were represented in the British House of Commons. What is the purchasing power of the £1 1s. 6d. that we are giving to old age pensioners to-day as against the purchasing power of the 10/- that Lloyd George gave in response to the demands of the Irish Parliamentary Party? The 10/- in days gone by had a higher value from the point of view of purchasing power than has the £1 1s. 6d. for which the Minister is responsible to-day.

It was not 10/-; it was 5/-.

I do not know if Deputy Allen has the right to cross-examine me.

He is not crossexamining the Deputy. He is only correcting him. The Deputy is paying Lloyd George a tribute to which he is not entitled; he only gave 5/-.

When this State was established old age pensioners were in receipt of 10/- per week, and the Minister who has now interrupted me and given bad example to Deputy Allen is referring to the amount which was originally given by Lloyd George.

This is all very far back.

I want to know from the Minister is it not a fact—and let him be realistic in this matter, because the people who go into the shops to-day know the value of the £—that the 10/- 30 years ago was more valuable than is the £1 1s. 6d. to-day? Who is responsible for that? Who carries the heaviest load of responsibility for that? It is the Minister who is now asking us to give him a renewal of the drastic powers contained in and hidden behind this Bill. I do not accuse the Minister when he promised more effective control of the prices of essential commodities of deliberately misleading the people to whom he gave that pledge,but will he tell us what steps he will take to implement that pledge? That is definitely related to the powers contained in this Bill. Will he tell us even now what steps he proposes to take to honour that pledge given over two and a half years ago? I do not speak with any great authority or inside knowledge, but the Minister knows that the Prices Advisory Body was set up for a specific purpose and that it has been prevented, and deliberately prevented, and I accuse the Minister definitely of that, from doing the work for which it was established.

I have never interfered in the slightest degree with their working.

Of course you have not, but you have given them no work to do.

I do not have to give them work. They are entitled to look for work for themselves.

The Minister is giving that body their salaries for doing nothing. Later he will come along towards the end of the financial year and tell us that this body is a useless body; that they have done nothing. The Minister is not responsible for the creation of the body to which I have referred, but he is responsible for giving them work to do so long as they are there and so long as he continues to pay them.

How many applications have been made to the Department of Industry and Commerce for an investigation of prices apart altogether from the work that could properly be initiated by the Department in matters of that kind? Is there a dual authority inside the Department in relation to the control of prices? Is it a fact that a section of the Department of Industry and Commerce has responsibility directly to the Minister for endeavouring to control prices? As far as I am aware, the Prices Advisory Body was set up for that particular purpose. I hold they can serve a useful purpose, but it is unfortunately the fact that since this mixum-gatherum Government came into existence in June, 1951, mostof the time of the House has been taken up by the Government in an effort to justify the reversal of the policy of their predecessors and by those on this side of the House in defending the policy of the Government that preceded the present one. I shall not say and have never said that everything that was done by the inter-Party Government was done in the most perfect way possible.

Did not you often say it?

Certainly not.

Give us examples of what they did not do properly.

Some other time.

Yes, and it is related to this Bill. I shall mention one of the things that the inter-Party Government did not do and which they should have done in my opinion and the opinion of my colleagues.

Let the cat out of the bag.

They failed to reimpose the excess profits tax.

I cannot see what this has to do with this Bill.

Will the Chair allow me a couple of sentences so that I can relate it to the Bill?

That will probably make it worse. It cannot be related to this Bill. This is a Bill to continue the Supplies and Services Act, to continue the powers of the Minister. It has nothing whatever to do with what the inter-Party Government did.

It is to continue the policy of the Government and to give the Minister power to continue that policy.

I suggest—I hope that you will agree that it is relevant— that there would have been no necessityto reduce food subsidies and thereby increase the cost of living if the excess profits tax had been reimposed during the period of office of the inter-Party Government or since this Government came into office. Do not this Government defend their present position on what was not done by the inter-Party Government? That is not a realistic way to regard things. If the inter-Party Government were wrong in doing certain things or in not doing other things, is that any justification for the present Government to follow in their footsteps? Certainly not. Deputy Allen is on a very slippery slope. He must remember that the Fianna Fáil Government—and this is not a Fianna Fáil Government—had 16 or 17 years to do everything that was good.

And did it.

They failed to do a good many things we would have liked to see them do.

We imposed an excess profits tax.

You did, and it was a pity it was ever taken off. The Minister will not blame me and I hope the Chair will not blame me if I give the Minister a straight answer. There are other things that should have been done by the inter-Party Government. Who prevented them? The Minister, Deputy Allen and those who are sitting on the far side of this House. Do they not remember the number of times they marched into the Division Lobby against the Local Authorities (Works) Act, which provided work in this State during the period of its full operation for about 25,000 persons? How many people are employed as a result of the allocations under that Act to-day? Let Deputy Allen answer for his own constituency. I will answer for mine.

The inter-Party Government cut the allocation by 50 per cent. after one year.

The two local authorities in my constituency, when that Act was in full operation, employed more thandouble the number of men now employed.

The Deputy knows he is travelling now.

Yes. I thought unemployment was indirectly related to this Bill.

Unemployment per seis not discussable on supplies and services.

I intervened in this discussion at short notice.

You were tipped off to keep it going.

I was not.

Deputies opposite were tipped off to try to shut it down.

Deputy Allen ought to know that I have reasons for not intervening so often as I used in debates of this kind.

We know that.

The Deputy who just talks as he thinks may talk closer to the point than the person who comes along with a carefully prepared speech, as Deputy Allen does sometimes.

The Deputy is fresh and original.

Deputy Allen should allow Deputy Davin to proceed without interruption.

I appeal to the Minister to tell us, when he is replying to this debate, what he proposes to do from now onwards to try to stabilise and, wherever possible, help to bring down, the cost of living.

Deputy Davin has paid a well-deserved tribute to the Minister, one in which the House will join, but my complaint about the Minister is that he is dominated by a city mentality and cannot see outside this city. I do not blame the Minister for that. His natural environment may have brought about that situation.

Emphasis has been laid on thedegree of unemployment in the city. I do not want the Minister to imagine for a moment that unemployment is confined to the city. There is a dismal winter facing the young men of rural Ireland and very little hope of their being able to carry on for the next three or four months. Every rural Deputy must have the same experience as I have had for the last two or three weeks of men looking for employment.

The Deputy would need to relate unemployment to supplies and services.

The debate has centred around the question of unemployment. City unemployment has been dealt with at great length and I thought the Chair would permit me to deal briefly with the situation in the country and to direct the Minister's attention to it.

If it can be related to supplies and services, I am prepared to allow the Deputy.

If supplies and services can be related to the cost of living, surely unemployment must affect the cost of living. To that extent it can be related because the cost of living will be a terrible bugbear for the man who has no employment for the next three or four months. I know dozens and dozens of them in my constituency and there are many such men in every constituency in the country who will be on the verge of starvation for the next few months. The county councils are the only big employers in rural areas. Although the Minister for Local Government has provided extra funds for road work, that is not sufficient to counteract the reductions that have been made in other directions, particularly reductions in the Local Authorities (Works) Act and the reductions in the special employment schemes. I think it is correct to say that in the special employment schemes there has been a reduction of £20,000, and under the Local Authorities (Works) Act a reduction of £250,000. Where will the young men of the countryside find employment? The county council cannot employ them all? How can they live without employment? During thesummer months they are employed on their own small holdings and during the winter months they are available for work, if they can get it.

It is all very well about the difficulties of the man on small pay, but are not the difficulties far greater where there is not any pay at all? Is it the policy of this Government to substitute for that a type of unemployment relief, to call it by its proper name? Is that a wise Government policy? Is it a good thing for the Minister to be able to say: "We have increased unemployment assistance"? Is that a defence of government? If this is the line that they intend to take I submit that it is a wrong one. I repeat what I said here before, when in a answer to a question put down by me some time ago I was told that £1,365,000 was given out in unemployment assistance, that it would be better if that money was put into productive work and improving the land of this country, making it produce more food instead of beggaring those men, dragging them to the police barracks once or twice a week for a mere pittance which is no use to them. If that money was put to providing productive employment I would say that the Government was following a sane policy, but to suggest that because there has been a rise in the cost of living—which nobody can deny—but that that has been offset by increased payments in added social welfare schemes, then that is an insane policy and the sooner the Government leave it the better for the country. I endorse what Deputy Davin said. As far as this Party is concerned we do not care in the slightest what Party is running the Government. It is a matter of indifference to us what Government is in the country as long as it is a good Government.

We are all in favour of a good Government.

I hope so.

It all depends on what you mean by a good Government.

It should not be suggested for one moment that becausea man stands up and criticises a Government he is supporting another Party. That, I think, is misrepresentation. I challenge the Minister to defend a policy which provides for the disposal of £1,365,000 for nothing, for no reward, no return whatsoever, as against the investment of that £1,365,000 on good productive employment.

Would the Deputy agree with me in this, that it would be better to expend £7,500,000 to provide employment for the 50,000 who are unemployed than to leave them unemployed at the moment? Will the Deputy accept that?

I do not follow.

In other words, it would cost £7,500,000 to give employment to the 50,000 unemployed. Will the Deputy support any steps taken to provide that £7,500,000 for the unemployed?

We would want to hear the proposals.

It is a simple question.

I also feel that the Minister and the Government may overlook the fact that there is unemployment in the rural areas as well as in the cities. If the opportunities presented themselves in the rural areas as they do in the cities, we might have masses of people, perhaps, who would have demonstrations in the rural areas such as we have seen in the cities. I do not want to see that, because I do not want to see demonstrations of that kind even in the cities.

I do not want to delay the House or the Minister on this question. There is very little I have to say on it, and I would not have intervened at all but for the fact that I want to draw attention to that particular matter. I do not blame the Minister entirely for the increase in the cost of living. The Government embarked on a certain policy which in their view was the correct policy. I do not share the view of Deputy Davin that they embarked on that policy for the purpose of discreditingor disgracing the Government which was in office before them. I do not think any sensible body of men would embark on a policy like that. Probably they embarked on this policy believing that it was the right one, and, as I said last year, I would not blame any Minister or any Government for embarking on a certain policy and giving it a trial. Any Government ought to give a certain policy a trial. If in the light of experience gained over one year or over two years or more they find that it is not a good policy for the country, that it is every day putting hardships on the citizens, that it is creating more unemployment, that it is bringing about an increase in the cost of living, that the £ has a lower purchasing power than it had the year before, cannot it declare that it is going to abandon that policy and try a more sensible one?

I am sure that the Ceann Comhairle would rule me out if I referred to the financial policy of the Government.

I have given the Deputy a good deal of latitude already.

I know you have, thank you. There is no doubt that the present policy of the Government has created an increase in the cost of living and increased unemployment, and I would like an indication from the Minister that such measures will be taken as will remedy those two very serious aspects of our economic life.

I want to raise one particular matter on this Bill. The Minister stated, when he was introducing his Estimate for the Department of Industry and Commerce, that the Prices Advisory Body was still in existence, and in reply to the debate yesterday he said that that body was still in existence and that he had not interfered with it in any way but that he contemplated permanent legislation and that a measure would be introduced in the future, that this Bill before the House would expire in March, 1955, and that on that account permanent legislation would be necessary. I do not know whether there is any particular merit in permanentlegislation merely because it is so described. In suggesting that permanent legislation would be introduced, the Minister went on to say that the future consideration of prices would be examined on the basis of costs rather than on the effect which price fluctuations would have. I want to urge on the Minister and the Government the desirability of considering this question now rather than waiting until permanent legislation is enacted. The import prices published show that between 1949 and 1953 there has been a rise from a base of 100 in 1938. The figure in 1949 was 248; in 1950, 271; in 1951, 331, and in 1952, 334. Figures recently published show that there is a slight drop this year and that on an average the import prices last year were about 1 per cent. higher than in 1951, and that in April of this year import prices were 11 per cent. lower than the peak, which was September, 1951, after the Korean war.

The O.E.E.C. recently published a survey for Europe which was quoted during the debate on the Estimate recently, and it showed that the cost of living in this country had increased by nine points in the first six months of this year compared with four points, the highest figure for any other European country, those for Norway and Britain.

Did you say of this year?

Yes. This was a recent publication.

There was no increase of nine points this year.

Their basis is slightly different from ours, but it shows a plus of nine points for the first six months of this year. The highest figure for any other country was four points for Norway and Britain, and some others showed some slight changes. The index, of course, is not the same as our index, but the point is that the rise in this country was the highest of any European country according to their statistics, and I have no doubt it must be based on information supplied at O.E.E.C. meetings.

Was not that plus nine based entirely on the removal of food subsidies?

They took into account the figures of the cost of living here and in Britain. The point was that it was for the first six months of this year. Those of the food subsidies which were removed were removed in July of last year. If that assessment is correct—that the cost of living here has risen higher than in any other European country in the first six months of this year, with the exception of Greece where it is probably as high—is it not time, taking into account the fact that import prices have fallen, we should have considered how prices, and especially how import prices, are affecting the cost of living? In most of the European countries the cost of living is substantially lower than it is here.

The Minister stated he did not interfere with the matters which are being considered by the Prices Advisory Body. I suggest that these factors should be placed before the Prices Advisory Body and that they should be asked to investigate them. Whatever data are available to the Department and whatever O.E.E.C. publications are available should be furnished to them.

They can then consider the position. Recent figures published by the Central Statistics Office show that this year our imports both in value and volume have tended to rise and that, in fact, I think in value and volume, they reached the highest level for any comparable period. What I want to impress on the Minister to put before the Prices Advisory Body is that if import prices show a reduction—as they have showed a continuous reduction over the past 12 or 18 months but especially in the nine months of this year—it should be possible to assemble the facts on which the costs of many commodities, influenced by import prices, are based.

Yesterday, either at question time or later on during the evening the Minister referred to the fact that increasedmechanisation had affected the price of wheat and consequently affected the price of flour. I do not know whether that is any significant factor in the cost of flour available from the mills here but, on the basis of the present world prices of wheat, it would appear—certainly up to recently—that the tendency is for prices to fall. I do not know whether or not, under the new wheat agreement, we will be obliged to pay more. As I understand that agreement, and how it worked in the past, whenever there was a fall we got the benefit of it. When prices rose after the Korean war the effect was felt in some cases immediately: in other cases it did not take effect for some time.

We have now seen falling prices for quite a considerable time and, to all intents and purposes, there has been no significant effect in the cost of living. Odd commodities have shown a drop here and there although import prices have shown a substantial reduction for many commodities. The recent cost-of-living index figure showed a drop of only one point—after it had reached, in May of this year, the highest level ever. The drop which occurred in August was probably seasonal and may have been related to milk or potatoes or something else like that.

I want the Minister to put before the Prices Advisory Body the various statistics, publications and data which are available, together with the reports compiled by O.E.E.C. and the figures available here, and to ask that body now to investigate the costs rather than defer the matter until a permanent measure is introduced next year. I do not believe that there is any particular inherent virtue in waiting for permanent legislation. The Prices Advisory Body have full powers and they have available the staff of the Prices Section of the Department of Industry and Commerce. It ought to be possible for them to consider the effect which costs have on prices and to take particular articles—especially essential foodstuffs or any other commodities that come within the ambit of the cost of living figure—and examine the whole matter. If particular instancesaffect costs it ought to be possible to examine them. So far as the public are concerned, the Prices Advisory Body appear to have been dormant for the past nine months. There is no use in saying that because that body are still in existence they are still functioning. The figures I have referred to and the publications quoted here show that up to May of this year there was a steady rise in the cost of living. There has been a slight drop since then, but, for all practical purposes, the present cost of living is at the highest level ever recorded in our history. That is happening at a time when world prices are falling and when our own import prices in respect of a great many commodities are falling. We have had lower import prices for successive months over a period of approximately 12 to 18 months. It ought to be possible to get an accurate assessment and examination by the Prices Advisory Body of prices on the basis of costs and any other influences by which prices are affected.

I want to put the specific proposal to the Minister that prices of essential commodities should now be referred to the Prices Advisory Body for examination and report.

Very briefly, I want to refer to a particular matter that was raised during Question Time here to-day. It concerns fertilisers. There is no doubt in the world but that, for the past few years, greater quantities of fertilisers are being used year after year, in the agricultural industry. It seems obvious that an opening exists for the establishment of fertiliser factories in this country. In my own county, some enterprising businessmen started a fertiliser factory and, frankly, I want protection for it. I believe, from his reply to-day, that the Minister is more or less of the same opinion. The amount of fertilisers being produced in this country to-day may not be sufficient to meet the absolute requirements of our agricultural industry.

There are also stocks in the country.

My concernis to ensure that these fertiliser factories will be built up and put on a sound footing. Until that is done, and until they are able to compete with the imported fertilisers, I would be thankful for any protection that the Government or the Minister for Industry and Commerce can give. I do not know whether or not the concentrated granulated compound fertilisers, to which he referred, are being manufactured here at present. I only know that the factory which will be in operation in January in New Ross, County Wexford, will specialise in that particular type of fertiliser. If there is no protection at present for that particular type of fertiliser I urge the Minister, when this factory is in operation, to give it the protection that he gives the ordinary fertilisers.

I only want to raise one matter that I referred to here last night by way of question when the Minister was speaking. It concerns the prices that are now being charged for mineral waters and the methods under which mineral waters are sold. It seems to me to be extraordinary that it costs as much for a bottle of lemonade which is free of tax as it does for a bottle of stout which is subject to a tax of approximately fourpence a bottle. There appears to be something radically wrong that stout, which is costly to produce, should be sold at the same price as lemonade, although the stout bears a tax of approximately 50 per cent. of the cost to the consumer of the bottle of stout. It seems to me that this is a matter that should be referred to the Prices Tribunal to inquire into.

I do not know whether the second matter comes within this Bill or not. I refer to the restrictive practices employed for the purpose of keeping up the price. There is a particular ring associated with the business which prohibits a particular type of vendor of lemonade from selling it at a price less than they lay down should be charged. It is in the public interest that these matters should be inquired into, and I avail of the opportunity afforded by this measure to draw the Minister's attention to it, so that steps will be taken to investigate it.

Does the Deputy suggest that the price of minerals at the moment is the same as the price of a bottle of stout?

Yes, in Dublin.

Could the Deputy give the exact figures?

I do not think that arises on this Bill. Does the Deputy propose to speak?

Not just now.

We cannot allow interrogation of that kind.

The introduction of this Bill by the Minister did not produce anything in the nature of a hope for the many people who have been awaiting the realisation of the promise by this Government of good things around the corner. We remember, when the general election campaign of 1951 was in full swing, the criticism there was because the price of butter was increased from 2/8 to 2/10 per lb. That increase of 2d. per lb. was made the subject of a very violent campaign against the inter-Party Government, which, in fact, had succeeded in keeping the cost of living down to within 3 per cent. of the figure at which it stood when they took over. When that Government took over, the figure was around 101 and towards the end of 1949 it had dropped to 99 or 98. I think it was 99.

We will leave it at 99. We then had the situation in which the Korean War developed. A stockpiling campaign was carried on, and, in spite of the best efforts of the inter-Party Government, the cost of living rose 3 per cent. to 103. In the meantime, however, wage levels had been increased on the average 20 per cent. during those three and a half years, and with an increase of only 3 per cent. in the cost of living, the balance of prosperity was in favour of all classes of people, whether wage-earners, traders, farmers or other persons receiving incomes or deriving benefit as a result of these increases.

When the general election campaign was in full swing, the cost of living was the real issue and the increase of 2d. per lb. on butter was used most effectively in Dublin City, and probably in Cork City and Limerick City, but when the change of Government took place, the first action taken by the Minister for Industry and Commerce was to decontrol certain prices, with the immediate result of increasing the cost of living. People were not warned during that campaign that this decontrol was going to take place. It is a remarkable fact that the improved situation, with the emergency long passed, has not come about and that conditions at present are worse than they were. I heard the Minister say that the trade recession had passed and that things were better, but, if they are better, why have we more unemployed this year than last year, if the trade position last year was worse than it is this year?

In considering prices in relation to this Bill, we must remember that no effort has been made by the Government to keep prices down. In fact, looking over the record of the past two and a half years, it seems that the Government deliberately decided to mop up the margin of prosperity which was brought to the people during the inter-Party Government régime. It is being mopped up now by the increased prices and higher cost of living. When the Government was being formed, point 15 in the Fianna Fáil programme, published at the time with a view to securing the support of persons other than Fianna Fáil Deputies, set out that it was the policy of the Party to maintain food subsidies and to control the prices of all essential commodities, but that clause has long since been deleted, because, only a few months after the change of Government, the prices of many essential commodities were decontrolled, and only a year after, in the Budget of 1952, the prices of other foodstuffs were increased. The price of butter was increased from 2/10 to 3/10 per lb., and, during the last 12 months, the price of butter has been further increased by 4d., making it 4/2 per lb.

The housewife of 1951, before the change of Government, could buy three pounds of butter for 8/- and at present that amount of butter costs 12/6. She could buy a lb. of butter and a loaf of bread for 3/4½d. which is now 5/-, all but a halfpenny. Similarly, the price of sugar has been almost doubled, and by ministerial Order.

It has increased to 7½d. per lb. compared with 4d. per lb. before the change of Government. When it was decided to decontrol tea which was available at 2/8 per lb., it was suggested that the decontrol of price would mean that there would be competition and that consumers would get cheap tea. Instead of that, it is a very poor type of tea that can be got at less than 5/- per lb. as compared with the previous price of 2/8. Again, the housewife who normally uses flour for the purpose of home baking paid only 2/8 a stone for flour before the change of Government. Flour at the present time costs 4/9½ per stone, while the price of the loaf of bread has been increased from 6½d. to 9½d. Taxes have been imposed on spirits and beer with a consequent sharp increase in prices. The result is that the purchasing power of the week's wages has been considerably reduced. In fact, we saw that in the first 18 months' administration of the present Fianna Fáil Government, the purchasing power of the pre-war £ fell 2/-. It fell from 10/10 to 8/8, taking the 1939 purchasing power of the £ as the basis for that calculation.

The increase in food prices particularly had the effect or reducing the value of wages and bringing down the standard of living of the people. The first concern of any Government—and it was the first concern of the inter-Party Government—should be to improve the standard of living of our people, to give them a greater margin over and above the cost of bare essentials, in order that they would be able to improve their standard of living. The deliberate decision of the Fianna Fáil Government to withdraw the subsidies meant that, in fact, they were deducting so much from the incomes of our people, whether their incomes took the form of wages orprofits. They had to meet those extra costs from the margin left to them over and above the cost of meeting bare essentials.

I consider that we had not reached a stage in this country when it was proper for us to withdraw the food subsidies overnight without arranging to compensate for that loss in some other way. If we were to embark on a policy that would bring general prosperity to the country, it might be urged that people could participate in that prosperity and that they might be compensated in some respects for these increased charges. but the policy that was pursued had the effect of bringing about a serious trade recession, the restriction of credit and a standstill in the business world. We have not yet recovered from that position.

These conditions were deliberately brought about by the Fianna Fáil Government when they came into office in order to make people believe that the inter-Party Government had not done a good job during their three years' administration. The people have had time since to sit back and judge for themselves. The verdict we got from the people of Cabra-Glasnevin district only this time last year showed clearly that they did not approve of the policy of the present Government, particularly in relation to food prices and the decontrol of prices in respect to many essential commodities. They did not approve either of a policy which caused so much unemployment amongst the people. We cannot say at this stage that the position has improved since last year. We can produce figures to show that, in fact, the position this year is worse than it was last year. For instance, we can take the figures for unemployment and we can say that there are more people working on relief schemes at the present time than ever before. Many of these schemes were introduced simply and purely for the purpose of absorbing unemployed workers who would otherwise have no alternative but to draw unemployment benefit and sign on at the exchanges.

I regret that the Minister did not indicate in his speech this evening thatthere is any prospect of improvement in relation to the standard of living of our people, the purchasing power of wages and stability in the matter of prices. The only stability apparent, so far as prices are concerned, is that they just cannot go any further as the people would not be able to bear a higher level than exists at the present time. During the last year it is significant that tariffs in respect to many goods have been increased. They have been increased by remarkably high percentages. The Minister, I am sure, will argue that these increases were justified and that if they were not applied there might be greater unemployment.

The entire economic policy of the Government is not under review on this Bill.

I am dealing with prices and I wanted to point out that the increased tariffs applied to various imported goods had the effect of increasing prices.

In so far as they affect supplies and services they are relevant.

I just wanted to point out that these increased tariffs must be borne in the long run by the ordinary consumer in the form of increased prices for the various commodities to which these tariffs are applied. As I say, it might be argued that they were justified, but when we consider the high cost of living at the present time and realise that these extra burdens must be carried by ordinary consumers in the form of higher prices, the question arises whether, in fact, such high tariff levels as have been applied in many cases were justified.

Does this Bill empower the Minister to impose tariffs?

I do not think, so, Sir. Then during the last year we had an increase in the price of gas to the consumers and E.S.B. charges in some respects have increased. The price ofcoal has not shown any encouraging drop. I believe that during the last year bus fares were also increased. All these increases must be borne by the ordinary consumer but it appears that the Government is not concerned about the heavy burdens these people must carry. When the Budget of 1952, which caused so much consternation in the country, was introduced, the only compensation in their allowances which the poorer sections of the community got was 1/6 per week, whether these allowances were in the form of old age pensions, widows' pensions or other allowances. That 1/6 a week was supposed to be the amount which would meet the increased cost of living at that time. But we are told by old age pensioners and widows that, in spite of the 1/6 per week increase which they got to meet the increase in the cost of living, it is more difficult for them to feed and clothe themselves than ever before.

Then we are importing more butter than we ever imported before in spite of the assurance given by the Minister for Agriculture in the autumn of 1951 that after the spring of 1952 we would not be importing butter any more. We are importing more butter now than we ever imported and the prospect for the production of our home butter is not bright. The Minister for Agriculture indicated that arrangements had been made to import a further 500 tons of butter, in addition, I think, to 400 tons on order and 500 tons in store. That butter is being purchased at 3/3 a lb. and the difference between that and 4/2 is to be carried, apparently, by the consumer to meet the cost of distribution and to give profits to those engaged in the trade.

We have seen from the statistical survey that the average price of imports has fallen 14 points in the last year. Although import prices have fallen and should be reflected here in the form of reduced prices, we find the cost of living tending to rise. During the last 12 months the cost of living has been inclined to rise instead of to fall, although there is a definite fall in the cost of imported goods. The advantage of the fall in the price of imported goods is probably offset by the tariffs imposed in respect of many of themDuring the last year also the road tax on motor cars, lorries and vans has been increased, particularly on agricultural lorries which were increased from £25 to £75 in many cases. The tax on some private cars was increased and it was reduced on others. The tax on tractors was also increased from £6 to £8. All these things have their effect, because the traders using these lorries and vans must pass on these increased costs to the consumer and in the long run it is the consumer who has to meet them, and the cost of living must continue to rise when these increased taxes are being imposed. Postal charges have also been increased and they must also have an effect indirectly on the cost of living.

When you add up all these increases it means that impossible conditions have been created for many people, particularly the wage-earners. It may be argued that the increase in the children's allowances had the effect of reducing the burden for many people with families. Certainly if the increase had not been given the position would be very much worse. But the steep rise in the cost of food and clothing has offset any advantage which the increased children's allowance might have given.

I regret that the Minister was so brief in his introductory statement, because if ever the economic situation in relation to prices and supplies and services needed to be reviewed it was this year. I understand that many butchers have gone out of business although the price of meat has been decontrolled; that there were more butchers in business when the price of meat was controlled and that the decontrol of meat prices has caused many butchers to go out of business.

A few years ago when Fianna Fáil were on this side of the House the Government at that time were obliged to meet much criticism and controversy in relation to the cost of living. Some of the increases which were the subject of controversy at that time were the direct result of the Korean war. The Fianna Fáil Party, however, denied at that time that the Korean war situation and the positiongenerally in the world had the effect of increasing prices. Looking back now we find that the inter-Party Government were unfairly criticised by Fianna Fáil Deputies at that time, I would even say unscrupulously, because when we examine the facts now we can see that the Korean war had much to do with the difficult situation which it was necessary for the inter-Party Government to handle——

Is not that two or three years ago?

——in the period from 1950 to 1951.

It continued afterwards. It was argued by the Minister in the debate on his Estimate that many of the difficulties which our people are obliged to face in relation to the price of consumer goods were caused by or resulted from the Korean war. The Budget of last May was heralded as a great success because there were no increased taxes imposed. But the fact was that the very steep increases which were applied to the Budget of 1952 were maintained in the Budget last May and since that the prices of several commodities have been increased by ministerial Order.

With restriction of credit, the trade recession and the high cost of living, business is almost stagnant. Business people are complaining that there is no stir and that people are not spending money. They are not spending money because they have not got a margin to spend after they have met the ordinary essentials by way of food, clothing and rent. It is regrettable that the Minister did not on this occasion indicate whether any steps would be taken by the Government to improve business and bring back the prosperity we enjoyed some years ago.

We are coming up now to Christmas. Christmas spending is the only relief which the business community can expect this side of 1954, because there is a very serious stoppage in the business world at the present time. Public houses only have visitors now during the week-ends and never during theday-time. A publican may have a few customers late at night but in the ordinary way there is no business done during the day-time. There are other examples. Take drapers' shops, for instance. They are almost in the same position except that drapery is the one business which can have some hope this side of Christmas as a result of a boom in business. We can take other classes of shops which used to be crowded but in which, on an average day, there is very little stir now.

The fact that the loan was not fully subscribed recently shows that the money is not there. It is being absorbed by the increased cost of food, clothing, rent and the ordinary bare essentials associated with the maintenance of family life. I trust, when the Minister is replying, that he will give us some hope that the Government will take steps to improve those conditions.

The relief schemes upon which they have embarked very vigorously in Dublin City especially and possibly down the country, too, are not going to last for ever. Even though the people engaged on those relief schemes at the present time are able to get their week's wages, there is not much prospect of constant employment on works of that nature.

I think it was unfair of the Minister in his speech on the Estimate for the Department of Industry and Commerce to mention that the trade recession had passed and business was better. If that was the case, there would be fewer unemployed to-day than there were 12 months ago when, in fact, there are more, in spite of the very great number of panic relief schemes that were devised in order to absorb as far as possible the very large number of unemployed people, apart from the many people who are obliged to emigrate. Emigration during the past year was never so great. It can be traced in great measure to the very high cost of living, which was the deliberate policy of the present Government which they decided upon themselves. They had a choice of either maintaining subsidies, and providing butter at 2/8 per lb., sugar at4d. per lb., tea at 2/8 per lb., bread at 6½d. or abolishing the subsidies and increasing those prices.

The time had not come when those subsidies could be abolished, as the Government had not made any arrangements to provide for the loss which would be suffered by the people who were obliged to meet those increased prices.

The Deputy dealt with subsidies on three different occasions in his statement.

At the present time we see that a very high tax is being applied in respect of spirits. We have seen it demonstrated that if the tax on spirits, particularly whiskey, were reduced, the revenue from the lower tax would bring in a greater return. The law of diminishing returns has certainly demonstrated itself in respect of the tax on whiskey. It has been clearly shown that if the tax on whiskey were reduced it would be possible to get a greater revenue.

The tax on the pint of stout was a cruel blow to many of the working-class people, particularly in the North Wall area of Dublin City, who always depended on the pint of stout and a sandwich for their dinner. Those people are now obliged to pay a higher tax on this beer. The tragedy is that in spite of those increases the tax on dance-halls was abolished.

Taxation does not arise on this.

I was only mentioning the price——

There is no power given to the Minister here to impose taxation.

I should like to hear from the Minister, when he is replying, whether there is any prospect of the prices of the various commodities coming down and whether the Government proposes to take any steps which would have the effect of bringing those prices down. His reply might be that this time last year the Restrictive Trade Practices Bill was brought in tocreate a measure of competition which might have the effect of bringing down prices. The Restrictive Trade Practices Bill was only a gesture. It was not effective. Whether it was intended to be effective or not is another question, but there is a feeling amongst traders that the Restrictive Trade Practices Bill was not the way to tackle the question of reducing prices because in many respects it would encourage the establishment of hucksters' shops.

The Deputy is discussing a piece of legislation that got the sanction of the House.

I was only relating it to prices.

The Deputy is saying that the Restrictive Trade Practices Bill was not a method by which one should tackle prices or such things. That Bill got the sanction of this House and is an Act.

If it is going to be used, use it to bring down prices.

Not under this Bill.

That is a matter that might be discussed on the Minister's Estimate, when it comes forward, but it cannot be discussed on this Bill. Deputies cannot attack every measure which the Minister introduces on this Bill.

Very well. I will not proceed on that line.

If the Deputy is trying to kill time perhaps he would sing us a song.

I want to say in relation to the prices of food and clothing that we had a housewives' association in the country a couple of years ago. They were very interested in the price of food, and rightly so. They showed themselves to be particularly active in regard to food prices and clothing prices in 1950, and carried on a vigorous campaign at that time. Since then, as we know, prices have been increased considerably, but now we never hear a word from thatassociation. In view of that one wonders whether, in fact, they were inspired by the Fianna Fáil Party in 1950, or whether they were the Fianna Fáil Party under cover carrying on that campaign. In fact, they are not now showing the same vigorous interest in keeping down prices. I hope that the Minister will indicate, when replying, whether there is any prospect of the price of food, clothing and rent coming down in the coming year.

The Deputy should remind him again of that in case he forgets it.

I think the Chair has already heard all that from the Deputy.

I was just asking that the Minister should give us information about that because last year, when he was introducing this Bill, he did not indicate that his programme for the coming year was going to put an increase of 4d. per lb. on butter or an increase of ½d. per lb. on sugar.

The Deputy has already referred several times to butter, sugar and meat. The Chair is very patient, but there is a limit to its patience.

Will the Minister tell us, when replying, whether he intends still further to increase these prices during the coming year, or whether in fact he is going to make an attempt to reduce them?

Mr. A. Byrne

When speaking on the Estimate yesterday I made an effort to draw attention to the conditions of the unemployed in this city. The Minister, when replying last night, glossed over the points that I had made, and evidently did not think them worth replying to. I still think that the biggest problem which this House has to face is that of unemployment, especially in the City of Dublin.

Unemployment in itself does not arise on this Bill. If the Deputy can relate it to the Bill, I shall allow him to proceed, but he must do that.

Mr. A. Byrne

I am simply asking how, with the cost of living at the present figure, people can afford to buy the ordinary foodstuffs. You have men drawing unemployment benefit, 38/-per week for themselves, a wife and a family of four, six or more children. There is no increase in the payment to the man with the larger family. How can they live in reasonable comfort with the loaf which used to cost 6d., now costing 9d.?

The last speaker attempted to draw attention to the increase in the price of butter. Bacon and eggs, at to-day's prices, no longer appear on the table of the unemployed working man. I think something should be done to make our people in the City of Dublin more contented. That would be a big step in the right direction and would help to bring peace and happiness to the country.

We should not shut our eyes to the fact that big numbers of our people are obliged to go to foreign countries to earn the living which they should be getting at home. One can see at the North Wall or at Dún Laoghaire how the country is being denuded of its population. I think it is the duty of any Government, no matter what Government we have, to see that men will get an opportunity of being able to earn a decent living in their own country.

We have read in the newspapers that certain new industries have been started. I hope they will continue to grow in number. I am afraid, however, that the new industries will not be able to take the place of the building industry from the point of view of providing employment. So far as the building industry is concerned there has been a depression in it lasting over the last couple of years. When speaking yesterday, I indicated that, in my opinion, that depression was largely due to the curtailment of credit by the banks. The small builders, in consequence, have been unable to provide employment. The result is that we have men who used to be employed on that industry leaving the country and going across the water. This Government, and all Governments, should realise that our population to-day of 3,000,000is just the same as it was over 30 years ago when this State was set up. It is no greater, and there is no use hiding the fact that in the years that have intervened conditions have not improved in the country.

Indeed they have.

Mr. A. Byrne

As I mentioned on a previous occasion, you have in every second house in Dublin someone unemployed, a son or a daughter, a young husband or an elderly husband.

That has no relation whatever to the Bill before the House.

Mr. A. Byrne

I am trying to make my own line of argument on behalf of the people whom I represent by drawing the attention of the Minister to the conditions under which they are living. Two years ago, the price of the loaf was increased from 6d. to 9d. The people are complaining about the prices they have to pay while their income is becoming lower and lower every day. They are able to buy less with the money they are getting. Take the case of an old age pensioner with 21/6 a week. Will anyone say how he can live on that? First of all, the rent amounts to 4/- or 5/- for a room in the tenement quarters in the city. What is happening is that our gracious board of assistance officers are called upon to subsidise these people by giving them an extra 4/- or 5/- a week or maybe 10/-. But that extra 10/- is taken out of their hands by the increase in the cost of living over the last year or two. The Government should do something, and do it quickly, as far as the City of Dublin is concerned.

We in the Dublin Corporation have started relief schemes with the idea of giving those people something better than they would get in the way of unemployment benefit. These relief schemes, however, can last only for a couple of months. The Government is now getting notice in advance that it must prepare and do something for those people. It must give them decent employment at decent wages when the temporary schemes on which they areemployed are finished, as they soon will be.

We are doing our best to provide employment for 1,000 men in the City of Dublin, but how long it is going to last I do not know. In the meantime, the cost of living position has not improved and industries have closed down. Take the case of a well-known Dublin firm in existence over 100 years which had to allow 100 of its staff, earning fairly good wages, to go on to the unemployment market. It is no harm to mention the name of the firm; these people went into voluntary liquidation, and this old Dublin firm, McMaster, Hodgson, was respected by all.

They certainly have no respect of mine for the way they treated their employees.

Mr. A. Byrne

I meet these people and I hear their grievances. It is my duty to listen to them, to give advice and help wherever I possibly can. Surely it is my duty, when I hear of a firm like that going into liquidation and causing unemployment for 100 men, to make an inquiry and put in a word for them?

Take the case of the theatre business. I understand that about 100 members of the staffs of our theatres have gone within the last couple of weeks. What is to become of these people? They are not going to sit back and rest content because they have a native Government. Is it not up to the Government to devise ways and means of securing employment or of encouraging others to find suitable employment for the people so dismissed? What one feels alarmed at is that if one stands up in this House to put a case forward reasonably and state what is going on around the corner they jump at you and make a political issue of it. The difficulties in Dublin do not involve a political issue. We must tell whatever Government is in power that they must face this problem, that they must give employment and give people an opportunity of rearing their families in Ireland instead of having to emigrate.

The conditions around the City of Dublin are well known to everybody. The cost of living to-day is higher than ever it was. Bacon and eggs are unpurchasable by the working classes, the prices are so high. It is up to the Government to give some encouragement to the people that things will be better and to make them better without delay. It is unwise to delay in bringing down the cost of living and providing employment or encourageing others to provide employment for the people. I referred yesterday to the fact that the money is tied up, that banks have restricted credit and will not help those engaged in industry on a small scale to provide employment. They have fabulous security.

The Deputy is getting away from the Supplies and Services Bill.

Mr. A. Byrne

I am merely trying to draw the Minister's attention to what is happening just around the corner, five minutes' walk from the House. I know of people who are unemployed, for instance, a man with four children who is getting 38/- a week unemployment assistance with no hope of getting anything else; the landlord is waiting for his rent, ready to produce a pink summons the moment there is a month's arrears of rent. I told one Minister—I am not sure who—that there were 100 decrees for possession.

These are matters that might be raised on the relevant Estimate but not on the Supplies and Services Bill.

Mr. A. Byrne

I quite agree.

If the Deputy agrees, he should come back to the Bill.

Mr. A. Byrne

With respect, Sir, I would point out that the problem with which I am dealing is not one for any particular Minister. It is a Government matter; it is a matter for the 14 or 16 members sitting on those Front Benches to devise ways and means which will bring comfort to the people. That is not going into politics. I do not wish to touch on politics at all. Ifyou go down to the North Wall you will see splendid men there unemployed. It is due to the position in regard to imports and exports. These men were engaged in loading goods on ships which industrial firms were sending away; they were also engaged in taking goods off ships and they now find themselves out of work. Our shipyards and dockyards and other places of employment are waiting for some kind of encouragement. I hold it is not necessary to find a superman to put forward schemes to solve the problem. The 16 or so expert members of the Government with expert advisers should be able to cope with the situation.

This is not relevant to the Bill before the House.

Mr. A. Byrne

I agree, but it is very difficult to decide on what Vote one should raise this question when there is collective responsibility.

Certainly not on this Bill.

Mr. A. Byrne

Every time I tried to raise it on different Votes I was told it was not relevant.

Surely you cannot do anything without money and this Bill——

Has nothing whatever to do with money.

Deputy Davin has already spoken.

Mr. A. Byrne

I will not detain the House but it is my duty at every available opportunity to speak up here. No matter what Government is in power I intend to draw attention to the very bad conditions which exist for a certain section of our population in the City of Dublin and which must be improved.

In my humble estimation the three outstanding problems that any Government must face at the present time are, first of all, the costof living, secondly, the 60,000 or so unemployed and, thirdly, a rural problem, the flight from the land. These are three problems that must occupy the attention of any Government who want to retain the confidence of the people or of this House. I hold that the Government with its niggardly, tight-fisted policy has definitely taken the wrong road. On several occasions they were given advice to follow the line their predecessors took but it is only now they are beginning to realise the harm they have done by their close-fisted policy, cutting down on everything and restricting credit which has brought hardship and privation into almost every home in the country. I want to tell the Tánaiste that one of the results of that particular policy is that the bulk of the people appear to be growing steadily poorer to the advantage of a very small handful. That is not a desirable situation.

If I may digress for a moment, I want to refer to the question Deputy Cowan posed to Deputy Finan of this Party as to how £7,500,000 provided by the Government would give employment to 50,000 men. Putting a fool question like that would not catch anyone. The answer is that we did not provide £7,500,000 in the period 1948-1951, but we provided conditions that allowed people to give employment and to take in a number of employees they never had before. I advise the present Government to go back to that policy. No Government can undertake to provide wages out of taxation for every worker in the country.

You are like all the rest—you will not take the responsibility of putting forward a single suggestion. You are like Deputy Alfred Byrne. What are you for?

The Minister knows quite well what I am for. I have told him so often enough. I have missed no opportunity in the House of putting it before him. It is a policy of encouraging people to build and develop their own country, instead of inducing them, almost compelling them, to fly away from this country like a lot of beggars.

That is cross-roads stuff. What do you mean in practice?

The Tánaiste has the means at his disposal—he should study the policy that the inter-Party Government operated for three and a half years.

It changed every year —and sometimes twice a year.

I am trying to give the Tánaiste some useful and constructive help in the few remarks I have to make. If he wants to sidetrack me into ordinary politics and make a joke about the conditions many people are living under, he is free to do so, but I will not follow him. I did not stand up for the purpose of blaming the present Government or to play politics. What I want to do is—and I believe it is my duty to do it—to give my ideas and views on how this country should be run to the best advantage. Even though Fianna Fáil might then regard themselves as picking our brains or my brains, they are very welcome to do so, as it is our duty to do it. I have never been one, when sitting on this side of the House or on that side, who would say that anything that came from political opponents was all wrong and all rotten, because it was from political opponents. The Tánaiste knows quite well that before the inter-Party Government time, from 1943, when we first came in, and since then, in any measure which was for the good of the people we have always clapped the Government on the back and supported them.

You have us dizzy from clapping us on the back.

No, I doubt if we have made you dizzy, because since you got into office you have been so busy trying to malign your political opponents that you have done damage to the country. I could very easily take the easy political road that a person in opposition can take and say that the Government should provide £10,000,000 or £12,000,000 to give work to every able-bodied man. I see an easier method, that is, to bring about a setof conditions the same as obtained a few years ago just before the present Government took office, whereby people could employ one another. There was such a wave of prosperity and building-up and development that the trouble was, during our term of office, that we actually had to advertise for men and women in England and ask them to come home.

At that time there were more unemployed on the register than there are now.

That is not true.

Perfectly true.

Give us the figures. A short time ago they were up to 90,000. The highest in our time was 30,000. The Minister knows quite well that the unemployment register can never be broken down completely, that on the unemployment register there are always some who, through an act of God or through no fault of their own, are not capable of employment. On another Vote I will give my ideas on that. Nevertheless, during our period in office unemployment was never as low. We had left office only a very short time when it started to soar, due principally to the cost of living created by the hard-fisted policy the Government has adopted since it came into office. There were 60,000 unemployed in 1953. If that is a credit to the present Government, I have to learn a whole lot over again. It is well within their power to stop the high cost of living that has not contributed anything to the welfare of the nation. In 1947, long before the inter-Party Government took office, that policy was beginning to manifest itself.

I have said here on previous occasions that I blame the present Government for taking advice that some of them surely must know is all wrong. We were given the very same advice and rejected it, and I am proud now that we rejected it—as the people on that side of the House have proved we were right, in a much better way than ever we could prove it ourselves. The food subsidies were completely abolished and there was no compensatingadjustment to balance what was taken from the people in that way.

The Minister must regard the present flight from the land as making a very dangerous situation. Every train and boat that goes out carries some away who will never come back, and the unfortunate part is that it is the youth that are going. The Government is chiselling down on all works. I do not know whether it is the advice that caused the present Government to put the taxes on tobacco, drink and cinema seats in 1947 that is inducing them to do the same to-day.

The Deputy is travelling very wide. He should try to relate his remarks to the Bill.

The Bill before the House asks us to renew the 1946 Act. Section 2 of the 1946 Act is a very wide one, wider than I am going.

Section 2?

Yes, Section 2, subsection (1) of the 1946 Act. It empowers the Government to

"authorise and provide for the regulation and control by or on behalf of the State of all or any supplies or services which are, in the opinion of the Government, essential to the life of the community ..."

With all due respect, I submit that I have not gone outside the scope of that phrase yet. The present policy is one of chiselling down and of knocking men out of employment, cutting down on land reclamation, forestry, and industrial work.

We are spending five times more on land reclamation than the Coalition Government ever spent.

That is a very tricky phrase and, of course, put into the balance it would be found true, perfectly true.

I would not have made it if it were not.

I would put this point to the Minister. The land reclamationscheme was only a baby about to get on its feet when the change of Government occurred.

Why talk about cutting it down?

The present Government has chiselled down on the policy of its predecessors for the development of that scheme.

We have just increased the grants.

Because, as the Book of Estimates came in, there was deliberately a small sum.

We have increased the grant per acre.

A piece of trickery.

It is hard cash.

I want to ask the Minister—I am sure he has gone into it fully—how many people know that it is only two-thirds of the maximum that can be drawn—up to a maximum of £30.

Well, the maximum before was £24.

The small farmers in my constituency know the ins-and-outs of that Order just as well as the Minister for Agriculture or his advisers.

That is a matter that should be debated on the relevant Estimate. The Deputy is going into detail.

The general policy of the Government is causing unemployment. There has been a cutting down in afforestation.

There are more men working in forestry this year than there were during the inter-Party régime.

Why all the deputations then to the Minister because men are being laid off?

There are more menemployed in forestry now than at any time.

I will not accept that. Only a fortnight ago I and the parish priest in a particular area went on a deputation to the Minister for Lands. Where there were 31 men employed at one period there are now only eight. That applies all over. The Minister is Deputy Prime Minister. He has a certain responsibility. Government policy is forcing young men to emigrate, and that emigration is nothing short of disaster. These young men should be given a chance to stay at home and develop the country.

They were doing that, and doing it willingly, when our Government was in office. Indeed, they were taking a pride in it. Men were actually coming home from abroad to take up work on our schemes. We did not cut down on one single scheme that had been initiated by Fianna Fáil.

Read Deputy McGilligan's first Budget as Minister for Finance.

Name one scheme.

The chassis factory in Inchicore.

There were a few harebrain schemes that we had to cut out. One of them was the rebuilding of Dublin Castle. I am sorry the Government is taking that up again.

What about the mineral development in Avoca?

Deputy Blowick might raise all these matters more appropriately on the relevant Estimate and not on the Supplies and Services Bill. The Deputy should keep to the Bill.

I am sure wasteful expenditure could be brought within the scope of this Bill. However, the Bill is wide enough and I have plenty of room to roam around it without transgressing the rules of order. We did not cut out a single scheme if we thought it was a good scheme. In fact we improved some of them. Thepresent Government has cut down on land reclamation.

We have blown it up five times the size it was.

If the inter-Party Government were in office it would be ten or 20 times the size.

The Government is selling the machinery bought by the inter-Party Government.

Reafforestation has been cut down. Last year imported timber cost £8,000,000. I am afraid the countries from which we buy that timber take very little from us in return. I admit the trees we planted would not immediately supply our timber requirements. But they would go some way towards filling a big gap in our internal economy. I am sorry the present Government has decided to prune that scheme.

It is a bigger scheme to-day and it is progressing better than ever.

That is humbug. The planting programme has been cut down. Next year it will be only 12,500 acres. We had the land. We had the staff and the money. When the Parliamentary Secretary made his tour of the West last spring 12 months I think he learned quite a little about forestry. He must realise now that the people regarded it as a first-class means of checking unemployment and the flight from the land. I am sorry that the Parliamentary Secretary yielded to the Minister for Lands and the pressure of the Minister for Finance; forestry does not count any longer and it must be cut down. If 6,000 or 7,000 of our young men emigrate, what harm is there in that?

Mr. Lynch

Those who were most vocal about it had no land to sell.

That is possible, but they had visions of getting employment at home. I do not think the Parliamentary Secretary should criticise a young man's wish to stay at home and work in his own country.

The only limiting factor is the amount of land available.

I handed over 40,000 acres to the present Minister for Lands and a staff capable of taking over plantable land at the rate of 20,000 acres per year.

I have already told the Deputy that afforestation does not arise under this Bill.

The present Government has caused the cost of living to soar. Our agricultural exports increased last year by £20,000,000. Some of that increase was due to increased productivity but, when the Minister for Finance broke down the figure, we found there was only an increase of £2.8 million and the remainder—that is, £17.2 million-represented the food that our own people were denied the right to purchase and consume.

What food?

The food we grow on the land. The Minister for Finance very cleverly avoided telling us where the £17.2 million came from. I can only conclude that it was derived from the lowered standard of living of our people who are denied the right to buy what we produce.

The people are eating more than they ever did of our own produce.

That is not true. The innumerable housewives who complain about the lowered standard of living must be telling fancy stories. Does the Minister say the consumption of butter has increased?

The people are eating more margarine.

That is so. The consumption of bread has dropped.

It has increased.

The consumption of flour has increased but the consumption of bread has decreased.

The consumption of flour in every form has increased.

I know these things and I will not allow the Minister to mix flour and bakers' bread.

You cannot make bread without mixing flour.

The consumption of bakers bread has declined.

It has not.

Does the Minister believe that as much meat is now consumed in the ordinary farmer's house as was consumed two years ago? Unfortunately, it is not. If we examine the statistics we will find that one of the principal items that contributed to the £17.2 million increase in exports last year was meat. We should not stand over a niggardly policy of chiselling down particularly when it means hardship in every home.

The Tánaiste has been for a long time Minister, a long time in charge of the Department of Industry and Commerce and Deputy Prime Minister. He has the facts and figures in regard to the working of Government and current trends at his finger tips. He must realise that it is time that the policy that the Minister for Finance is having forced on him was discontinued. It is not the policy of the Minister for Finance but the policy of people behind the scenes. I blame the Tánaiste and the Minister for Finance for accepting and putting into operation a policy from people who are not responsible to the people.

How does the Deputy suggest the price of meat should be brought down?

Deputy Allen will not draw me from the point I am making. I am blaming the present Government for accepting a policy from people behind the scenes. I know what I am talking about because I know the advice that we got from these people when we were in office. We were strongly advised to continue the tax on tobacco and drink, to chisel down expenditure, to restrict everything, to reduce expenditure all round. We see what that policy has meant. In two years they borrowed £45,000,000 andhave raised in taxation, by increasing the cost of food, another £30,000,000. The Minister will not tell us that that is to pay off the debts that the inter-Party Government left because all the debts that have been paid for as yet was £500,000. To pay off £500,000 the Government has blistered the people by raising the cost of living to the tune of about £30,000,000 in one and a half years and have borrowed £45,000,000. That is a new type of finance. I do not claim to be a financier, but that strikes me as being rather strange.

The Tánaiste may tell us when he is replying why it is necessary, in order to pay off £500,000 interest and principal of Marshall Aid which fell due this year, to borrow £45,000,000 in two years—£20,000,000 before it fell due at all—and, at the same time, to impose taxes on food and petrol, and to increase the road tax.

I recall the nightmare of last summer and winter when Minister after Minister and Parliamentary Secretary after Parliamentary Secretary came in here to impose fresh taxes, running into about £30,000,000. I would like someone to break down the £45,000,000 that was borrowed and the £30,000,000 taxation into easily digested figures.

We will do our best.

Then I would like to know why all that was necessary to pay off £500,000.

A lot of it is going into building power stations in Mayo.

Are we getting £75,000,000?

At that rate there will be a power station at every crossroads in Mayo. We are very proud of any development that has taken place in Mayo, but it is about time the West was discovered. Up to now it was only useful for catching votes.

The Deputy might come to the Supplies and Services Bill.

When there was a Mayo man in the Government nothing much was done.

Mayo was on the map. There was scarcely a time that I spoke from the Government side of the House that the Minister's colleagues, who were then on this side of the House, did not twit me with the fact that the Minister for Lands thought all Ireland was the West of Ireland. Does the Tánaiste remember that? There was a biscuit factory proposed for Ballina. The biscuits have gone so mouldy that I will not mention them.

To-day I asked permission of the Ceann Comhairle to raise a question on the Adjournment. The Chair kindly gave me permission to raise it. In order to spare the Minister and the House, I shall refer very briefly to it now. I have received further proof that the Minister has not the correct information on this subject. All I ask him to do is to make inquiries. Will he buy an ordinary sample, say, a halfstone or a stone of ordinary whole flour as it comes from the mills, leave it in a warm place in the kitchen for four to six days, put a pane of glass over the vessel that contains it and leave it undisturbed for five or six days? If it does not walk the pane of glass off I will take back every word I said. I hope the Minister, in his reply, will have something to say on that matter. I do not raise this as a joke. I have medical authority for saying that what is happening is injuring the people.

The Minister, under the Supplies and Services Bill, has power to make an Order compelling millers to clean the wheat in the way that neighbouring countries do it. I want to see wheat grown here. It will give employment and provide food for the people and will earn a profit for the farmers. The millers have enough profit out of flour to enable them to clean it before they mill it. It is not good enough, for the sake of making the millers' lot easy or allowing them plenty of profit, to allow them to sell flour that is not clean. I read in a West of Ireland paper about an unfortunate shopkeeper who was fined because there were weevils in theflour. That shopkeeper had no more responsibility for that than I have.

That matter certainly cannot be discussed on the Supplies and Services Bill.

Under Section 2 of the Principal Act the Minister has power to make an Order in respect of this matter. I am asking the Minister to make an Order under this Act compelling millers to clean wheat before grinding it. If millers in neighbouring countries have been doing that for 50 to 60 years, it is not too much to ask our millers to do it. I am assured on good authority that the cost of cleaning will not be more than 3d. per cwt. If 3d. per cwt. will make too great an inroad on the millers' profits, the millers can give up milling.

That is what I have to say on this Bill. I do ask the Government even at this late hour to change their policy, this policy of the restriction of credit which is freezing up the whole lifeblood of this country, and give a free hand to the banks to make loans available for building and for employment and so on, because the restriction that has been imposed by the present Government has done nothing except to bring about forced unemployment. I want to bring to the Minister's notice also that the day has come when the banks will not now give a loan to a man with a vested farm in his name. That is a pretty desperate and a pretty bad situation, to think that if a farmer who owns a holding or a farm of £600 or £700 worth goes into a bank for a loan of £100, £150 or £200 the bank will not give it, and the reason they give is that the Government have told them to restrict credit.

Can the Deputy name even one branch manager who has said that he was restricting credit on the orders of the Government? Can you give me any evidence? I do not want the board of a bank, but if the Deputy can produce evidence that even a branch manager said that, I would be glad to hear it and to deal with it.

If the Minister is asinnocent as all that, I am afraid he is not fit to hold office as Minister.

If the Deputy can produce evidence——

Will the Minister take my word for it?

I want to know the name of the bank.

Well, now you will not get that.

Well, the Deputy can take my word for it that it is untrue.

The Minister is asking me to become a spy for him and to tell the name of the customer who went into the bank and what occurred in my presence.

It is untrue to suggest that the Government gave any bank any instructions for the restriction of credit.

Very good. Does the Minister then suggest or believe that the bankers of this country adopted the restriction of credit in the way it was restricted without a direction or instruction from the Government?

I am asking the Deputy to give the name of a banker who said it.

I will not. I would not tell the Minister what the particular instance was because I would not like to give the name of the man, to whom I would have lent the money myself if I could have spared it, and who was refused credit in the bank; and the Minister can take my word for that.

Does the Deputy want to keep that bank continuing to restrict credit? If he gives me the name of the bank I will see that that policy is not followed on the ground that the Government advised it.

Suppose I say this, that the particular person I have in mind seeking a loan has visited three different banks and that I say that he got the same refusal in each bank?

I do not care. I want evidence that a bank refused credit on the ground that the Government advised them to restrict credit.

The Minister will not get away with that because he very well knows what has happened all over the country. Surely the Minister is very innocent when he tells us that in fact the Central Bank and the commercial banks of this country have adopted a policy of restriction of credit against Government wishes. Is that right?

If they have, it is against the Government's wishes.

Very good. Will the Minister ask his colleague, the Minister for Finance, or himself take up the matter with the banks and ask them is credit being restricted?

It is the banks which control the Government, not the Government controlling the banks.

The Minister wants me and the House to believe that he does not know what is happening in the banks now, and the restriction of credit they have brought in the country. He knew nothing about it, and, as I say, opened his eyes as big as saucers when he heard from me to-night, though he knew quite well, that the banks have been restricting credit in that way. Would they have done it unless they had got instructions from the head of the Government?

The Deputy has said that at least three times.

And I have contradicted it at least as often.

I would repeat it a hundred times if the rules of the House permitted it. Every Deputy knows as well as I do that no farmer, vested or unvested, will find his land taken as security for a loan by the banks. That has had bad effects in many ways. The owners of property, and builders, cannot get credit, and the result is thatas soon as their little private funds are exhausted they must lay off men. Another result is that because the working men feel this uncertainty in the air we cannot expect them to give of their best while working with that sword held over their heads, suspended by a threat of being sacked on a Saturday night or told: "I am sorry, I have nothing for you to do on Monday." I say to the Minister in all sincerity: "Go back on that policy and reverse all that policy. The worst that can be said is that you are following a policy of your predecessors in office, but that will be easily got over, and the good that will accure from that will flow into every home in this country and will more than offset any criticism that may come from that action."

When listening to this debate on the Estimate for Supplies and Services, as I have been——

That was a different debate.

Well, for want of a better word, "debate" is the only thing that can be described as happening here.

This is the Supplies and Services Bill. This is a different debate.

A Leas-Cheann Comhairle, with your permission, all I was going to say was that while listening to the discussion on this Bill I am convinced that this Bill must deal with the entire Government policy of this country.

I would like to know from you, Sir, before I say anything— and, as usual, my words will be very brief—if I have your permission under this Bill to discuss the entire Government policy?

The Chair cannot give any permission on those lines. The Deputy will proceed with his speech and, if necessary, the Chair will intervene.

I am very grateful for that bit of advice. Then I take it fromwhat you have said and from the speeches already delivered here this evening that I can at least deal with the unemployment problem which prevails in this country.

In relation to the Bill before the House.

In relation to the Supplies and Services Bill. I believe that every Deputy in this House should make a particular case for his particular constituency or in a particular way. When speaking here last week on the Vote for the Department of Industry and Commerce, I made a particular plea for the town of Fermoy, one of the towns which I have the honour to represent here in Dáil Éireann. I would like for a few moments this evening to refer at this stage to the unemployment problem that prevails in the very same town on which I spoke here last week.

The Deputy cannot go into detail of that kind, and will not be permitted to do so, on the Bill. The Deputy must relate his remarks generally to the Bill, but not in the detail into which he would like to go.

I bow to your ruling, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, but I still believe that I can call it any name I like. The town of Fermoy can be called anything, and if not referred to as any particular town in this country or mentioned by name, then I take it that I can say that the unemployment problem in this particular town in which I have a particular interest is greater now than ever before since the foundation of the State. I suggest in all seriousness to the Minister that there is a solution for that problem, and that there is a general solution for the unemployment problem throughout the country. Deputy Blowick mentioned a figure of 60,000, but with all due respect, I think he underestimated that figure. I believe it is 75,000.

Have it between you. The actual figure is 51,000 at themoment. That is the number registered.

Yes, but the Minister knows as well as I do, and every member of the House, that you may add at least something to that. There is a difference between your 51,000 and my 75,000, so I will compromise and say 60,000. In all seriousness, I suggest that there is a solution for this problem. I think it should be tackled again, and that it can be tackled in a serious and effective way if, rather than seeing the people fleeing from the provincial towns to the cities or from the cities to England, some definite attempt should be made to establish some kind of industry by which those people could be kept in gainful employment in their own towns. I mention no town in particular. I really suggest that there is that solution to the problem. I do know that the Minister, even though I was not here last evening, in his reply to the debate on the Estimate for the Department of Industry and Commerce made some reference to the fact that some Deputies thought that he could pull factories out of his pocket and establish them in various parts of the country.

Possibly I was one of those Deputies whom he had in mind. During that debate I made it very clear that I did not believe that the Minister was entirely responsible for the establishment of factories in any particular area but I believe—and here is where I correlate my remarks—that more factories could be established in provincial towns if a lead were given by Government Departments. I agree with the statement made by the Minister last evening that it is not his job to pick a factory out of his pocket and to place it in any specific town, North, South, East or West——

That is not relevant on the Supplies and Services Bill.

I mentioned the problem of unemployment that prevails throughout the country generally and I suggested ways of combating that problem. I do not believe that whatI am about to say now is a repetition of what I said last week. I believe that the perfect solution for the unemployment problem is the decentralisation of industry and the establishment of factories throughout provincial Ireland.

That has nothing to do with the Bill which is now before the House.

I suggest conscientiously and seriously to the Minister—and I believe that I am entitled to refer to this matter on this Bill—that the present high cost of living is responsible for many of the difficult problems in rural and provincial Ireland. I do not believe there is any justification for the high cost of living and it is the duty of any Government and any Minister for Industry and Commerce to take immediate and effective steps to reduce it.

I regret to say that I can see no evidence whatsoever that any steps are being taken to reduce the cost of living. It is unanimously admitted that, as a result of increased and extra taxation, money is extremely scarce. It has, in addition, declined in purchasing power. Yet no effective steps or, for that matter, no steps at all are being taken to improve conditions and to try to lessen the hardships that our people are suffering from. I say now to the Minister that if I were a Minister—it may be too much to hope for but maybe I will be some day: at any rate, I know all the snags—I would take immediate steps on the lines I have indicated to keep our people at home in rural Ireland. I believe that despite the high cost of living, so long as we can keep our people at home and in useful and gainful employment we will be doing a good day's work. If the Minister takes action on the lines I have indicated I believe that the conditions which exist throughout the country at the present time will change to such an extent that it will be very easy to keep our people there.

This country has three very grave problems at the present time. These are the high cost of living, rampant unemployment and the flight of our peoplefrom the land to our cities and towns or, worse still, to Britain. A few hundred years ago, our poet Oliver Goldsmith said:—

"A bold peasantry, their country's pride

When once destroyed can never be supplied."

That statement is more true to-day than it was when it was written by the poet. Taking all these facts into consideration and bearing in mind that the manhood and the life power of our country is ebbing with continuous emigration, then, whether we be in Government or in Opposition, we must do our utmost to tackle the problem and to try to arrest the tragic flight from the land.

I have already indicated that the main theme on which I wanted to speak this evening was the rampant unemployment throughout the country and my belief that there is a solution for that problem. I have made suggestions to the Minister and to the Government and if they will tackle the problem in the way I have suggested this evening and in the way I have been suggesting since I came into this House a short time ago, that is, to desist from centralising every industry in Dublin, which is already topheavy——

That does not arise on the Supplies and Services Bill. It has no relation to the Bill. The Deputy must relate his remarks to the Bill before the House.

While Deputy Blowick was speaking this afternoon the Minister interrupted him and said that this Government are spending five times more on land reclamation than the inter-Party Government did. I cannot understand how that can be so—and I would not have mentioned this matter at all had not the Minister interrupted a previous speaker in the debate. Speaking for County Cork, I know that less money is being spent on land reclamation there——

The Deputy cannot discuss land reclamation on this Bill.

Somebody is getting the money.

I raised this matter only as a result of an interruption by the Minister on this very subject.

Interruptions are disorderly and the Deputy may not reply to them.

In conclusion, may I say that I believe that the foundation of the problems which this country is facing at present—and I am speaking now on the Supplies and Services Bill —is present Government policy. If, this very evening, we could decide here and now in this House that so many fewer people will be unemployed to-morrow, we would be doing good work. I have suggested a way to the Minister and to the Government to enable them to do so.

Much can be discussed on this Bill. I am satisfied that it more or less covers the life of the people. I listened to the speeches made during the course of this debate and I am convinced that it is essential to bring home to the Government the serious plight of a vast number of people in our rural areas. The wage packet of the worker is too small. It is not sufficient to pay for the necessaries of life and the result is that many unfortunate people are in sore want.

There is a remedy for that. Increase the wage packet.

I am speaking on behalf of workers who have not continuous work the whole year round but who get a few months casual work and are then unemployed for a while and are taken on again later. Those people are in a sore plight at the present time. A few years ago it was possible for those people to supplement their meagre earnings by keeping maybe a pig or two or maybe poultry. That was at a time when meal and oats were reasonably cheap in price. The ordinary cottier I knew in the past was able to keep a pig or two in his little byre and, after fattening it up, hewould sell it, and with the money he would get for it he would buy clothes and footwear for his children. Then, again, his wife used to keep anything from five to ten or 20 hens which supplied them with eggs.

How is this related to the Supplies and Services Bill?

I want to point out that nowadays these people's sole income is whatever they get in their wage packet and that they are unable to engage in a little private industry as they were in former times. They cannot have the little private industry now because the cost of feeding-stuffs is too high for them to rear pigs or to keep poultry. Therefore, they are utterly dependent on their week's wages. The position is getting very serious indeed, and that is true not only of the under-dog but also of the white-collar workers. Take, for instance, the teaching profession.

Is it not a fact that school managers all over the country can hardly get a teacher to fill a position in their schools? They have to advertise for months before they can get one and we know that teachers are resigning, getting out of teaching and going into other employment inside and outside the country because the wage packet they receive is too small to enable them to make ends meet.

What connection has this with the Supplies and Services Bill?

I want to say that the wage packet of these people is so small that they cannot make ends meet and they have to get out of teaching. I saw a Guard in my own area having to leave the force and going over to England to seek bigger wages. That is a serious position. The Government may say that the country is living in the lap of luxury. That is so for many people, people flying around on wheels to-day who, a few years ago, were on asses and carts. They, however, are not the type of people who make up the nation and it is the under-dog and the great mass of the people who feel the present position most severely.They see their children hungry and they see dry bread being given to them as they go out to school. Forty or 50 years ago, children went out to school with what we call "a clout of dry bread in the corner of their fists" and now that day is back again. I see them in my own area going out with the dry bread and without the bottle of milk they used to have. In these circumstances, it is very unfair for the Government to talk about the comforts of the country and the progress that is being made.

We can see poverty rife in every area as it was in the past and I blame that situation on the policy of the Government. The restriction of credit has been the cause of it all. The Government may argue as they like that they did not restrict credit and did not interfere with the banks in regard to it. We say that is bunkum. There is not a bank in the country that wants to give a penny to a farmer, unless he has big money in the bank at the time.

The Taoiseach said we were living beyond our means.

If the cost of living continues to rise as it is rising, we as Deputies will have to demand an increase, because any of us who live in the country and have to keep a car know that we have to wait anxiously for the cheque to come at the end of the month in order to pay for petrol, tyres and insurance. If it goes on as it is for a year or two, many of us will have to let our cars go. That is not mere high-falutin' talk. There are Deputies who have several sidelines, but there are many poor Deputies who had to give up their way of life at home to carry out their duties as Deputies and who are having a hard time. There are other people who are having an even crueller time, ex-soldiers in this country. There is a vast number of them in this country and I know scores of them. Some of them served under me and I met them a few days ago. I see them now as ushers in Government Departments. These men are hungry—there is hunger in their faces—and there is not even the butt of a cigarette in their pockets. These are the men who gave us theright to speak here and the treatment they are getting is a disgrace. They have to bring up and rear families on about £3 a week and I ask that there be a full investigation into the position of all our ex-soldiers in Government Departments.

That certainly does not arise on this Bill.

The wages these people are getting are nothing less than a disgrace and had it not been that they send their children to England to send home a remittance at the end of the month their families would be broken up. Family ties all over the country are being broken by the present situation. Families which should be united and living in reasonable comfort are breaking up because there is not enough to go round, and the sons and daughters must go out and fend for themselves in another country. In those circumstances, it is a disgrace that any Government should sit here complacently and say that the country is doing well. Things are not well for this country. Things are well for a minority who can fly round in luxury and comfort, but too many people at present are hungry, too many people have no work and too many people are leaving the country, not because they want to leave it but because they must. Their parents have to ask them to go away to England, to Brazil or Canada, so that they can send back remittances which will keep the old home from breaking up.

It is time the Government woke up to the seriousness of the situation. I can understand that, when there is a change of Government, there is a big upset, but this Government brought about too big a change and, in future, where there is a change of Government, whether there is a change of policy or not, it should not be a change overnight. There should be a transition period to give the people time to settle in, but the removal of subsidies and the restriction of credit almost overnight destroyed the hopes of tens of thousands of people. Yet the Government sits quite satisfied, while they know in their hearts that there ismisery and want in the homes of the people they struck down.

I ask the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary to go down the country and stand up in any village and ask the workers around them how they are faring. They will hear, not alone from people who do not support them but from their own people: "If you do not do something, you will get to hell out of this." One thing was certain in the case of the inter-Party Government—they gave employment. I am not saying that the wages were mighty, but where there were groups of men unemployed they were not allowed to go to England. All that was necessary was a list of the unemployed—the work and the money were provided. Good work was done, and I saw almost full employment in my own area, with the result that you can cross the country now with dry feet in the depths of winter because of the draining of the marsh land and bogland by the work of these people.

They got their wages on Saturday night and spent them in the local shops. Money was circulating then, but what is the position to-day? Is the publican not scratching his head and wondering when his next customer will come in? Is it not a fact that he has the customer only once a week instead of three or four times a week as heretofore, when he put two large packets of Players in his pocket and three or four paints down his gullet and paid for them with good cash which he earned himself? He cannot do that to-day.

The Deputy is now going into detail. He should relate his remarks to the Bill.

These are facts which I want to put before the Government. I ask them in all seriousness to change their policy. They must do so, because, if they do not, there will be nobody left in the country but the idle rich, who blew in here a few years ago, together with the old, the simple and the afflicted. We want to see family ties kept intact in our country areas. I see to-day old homesteads ruined and the people gone because they cannot live in this country. Why cannot theylive here? Is it not a grand country? Have we not got finances, manpower, ability and leadership enough? What is wrong that we allow our people to go out and to drift away from the land? It is all because of Government policy. Year in and year out, we hear of a £25,000,000 loan, a £15,000,000 loan and a £10,000,000 loan. We see all these loans being floated, but that money does not enter into the lives of the masses of our people. Why float all these loans if they are not going to give some service to the people who should count? Is it not the people who toil with their hands and by the sweat of their brows that we ought to think of? We are not thinking of these people.

If it were not for a few country council workers, scarcely anybody would be left in the country at all. There is very little farm work available now in the country or very few workers left to take up such work as is available. The middle-class farmer cannot get workers. What does the big man do? So far as I can see, he writes out a cheque and sends it across to Germany or some other country to purchase a combine with which he can reap and thresh his wheat in a few hours, so that he will have to give only the minimum employment. Is that not a serious position? I see a number of these combines travelling around the country during the harvest time. One or two men can operate a machine which does the work that it took seven or eight men to do formerly. In former times when we had the threshing mill travelling from farm to farm, it gave employment to seven or eight men for a period of about three months, and they were able to earn anything from 18/- to 21/- per day. The Government will have to wake up to the fact that these changes are taking place. If these combines and master machines are going to displace the people in the villages of Ireland, where is the Ireland that we all dreamed of and fought for? These are pertinent questions which it is necessary to put to the Government. It makes no difference to me what Government is in power, I shall continue to put these questions to them.

I try to take a balanced view of the whole situation. I have been 30 or 40 years in public life, and I know what we went out and fought for and what many of our people died for. It was for a balanced Ireland in which the plain simple people could get a living on their native health. I see these people being uprooted now because of a restriction of money. What is money but a medium of exchange? I know that money is king of the country at present, and that a few people hold it in their grasp. We have to smash that grasp and let the money circulate to assist the people generally.

We see tens of thousands leaving the country as fast as they can and settling down in other lands. The majority of the people who remain are the aged and the sick who are depending on the few remittances sent home by their children to keep them in their little homesteads. On top of that they receive some few allowances by way of social service from the State, just merely to keep them alive. I live in the midst of what used to be the wealthiest area in the country, an area which embraces perhaps the best land in Europe and I see desolation all around me. This was the land of the Pale and so far as those who control it are concerned I see practically the same position as existed 50 years ago-big men with big machines giving the smallest amount of employment possible because they want to reap the biggest profit they can in the shortest time.

This has no relation to the Bill before the House.

I think it has. So far as I can see, the over-all picture is one of misery and gloom for the mass of the people and I would ask the Government to see that something is done to relieve that situation. There is no use in going around the country and boasting that things are all right when we know that they are all wrong. As I said a few moments ago, I often meet old soldiers and I hear their stories. I see hunger and misery on their very countenances. When I ask one of them: "How isthe family?" the reply usually is: "The family how are you. I did not see my sons or daughters for years. We had to let them go as there was no living for them at home. If we did not let them go, how would we live? Do you think I would let them go if we could get little jobs for them here at home?" These poor men are left high and dry with a miserable wage on which they are not able to live while we are floating loans for millions. What are we going to do to relieve their position?

I should like to mention that for the last nine months in my county we have been endeavouring to secure an increase for county council workers. We considered, as a council, that these men had not a sufficient wage and we gave them an increase of 5/- or 6/- a week. We sent that proposal along to the Minister for sanction. What was the result? We had to send appeal after appeal to him every month to sanction that proposal but nothing happened until a few days ago when, after nine or ten months, the increase was sanctioned. During these nine or ten months the unfortunate workers were left high and dry, trying to exist on dry bread and margarine, if they had any.

The Deputy is getting away from Supplies and Services.

I am not travelling far away from the hunger and misery that exist in this country. When we get up here to call attention to these matters, it is not for the purpose of lambasting the Government or throwing out the Government but for the purpose of doing our duty and letting the country see the position as it exists. I have lived in the centre of Ireland all my life and I can say that things are not healthy there now. I can see on Sunday, outside the church gate, scores and scores of cars and, to judge by appearances, everything looks very rosy. You would almost want a policeman on point duty to direct the traffic outside the church gate. I would say that is not a healthy position because 90 per cent. of these cars have been obtained on the hire purchasesystem and very few people are absolute owners of their cars. The slightest blast of depression will put them back on shanks's mare. Perhaps it would be better if they never left shanks's mare.

I think that the policy at present operated in this country is a Tory policy. It is a policy for the rich. The Government has done everything it can for the industrial magnate and the land magnate living on his money. What more can the Government do for them? Nothing more. There are ample opportunities for big money and big business.

Will the Deputy come to the Bill?

I shall sit down in a few minutes because I have dealt with the main points which I wished to bring before the House. I would say to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Government that he is in a responsible position. He should go out and make every effort to do his particular job and he will require to do it very speedily. He will require to open up avenues of employment, not alone for the people in the West but for the people of the whole of Ireland. If he does not do that, a change of Government means nothing. What the people want is the wherewithal to keep the home fires burning and to preserve the old family ties intact. They love all their children and would like to keep them at home. They do not want to send them across the water if they can keep them at home. The Government gave certain promises when they assumed office and they should fulfil these promises. They got into power by a swindle.

That does not arise on this Bill.

I am going to relate it to the Bill. The simple fact is that the Government of the day got into power by a swindle.

The Deputy may not discuss on the Supplies and Services Bill how the Government got in. If the Deputy hasnothing to say in regard to Supplies and Services, he must resume his seat.

I say the Government ought to be ashamed of themselves. They are brazen and hard-necked to allow this country to drift into the condition in which it is now. No Irishman would expect them to sit there with such complacency with the credit restrictions, the low wage policy, the emigration which we have, and all the things which are so necessary to make a happy Ireland being broken up because of the policy of Irish and British banks and of the money lenders. They cower before money. Their duty is to face money and put money second and the people first. The people do not care two hoots who is in power if money is put in its proper place. Let it be the servant of the people and not the master. It has been the master of the Government and our people feel it very sorely. I say, shame on the Government, for their cowardice.

As this Bill deals with supplies and services, it is only right that major consideration should be given to supplies in the nature of food, clothing and shelter for the people. Deputy Giles has dealt with the circumstances under which the vast majority of our people are labouring. Every year when this Bill is introduced it brings forth very strong criticism from the Opposition. While speeches criticising the Government are being made from the Opposition Benches no constructive speeches have come either from the Front Bench or the back benches of the Government to present a picture of more favourable and brighter days for this country in the future.

The Minister for Industry and Commerce, speaking recently in this House, said that while some prices of raw materials have fallen recently the over-all price position did not encourage the hope of any reduction in the cost of living in the future. The cost of living to-day should be the major concern of the Government. But all the people in our towns and cities are certainly alarmed and astonished that the Government have failed to fulfiltheir obligations with regard to the cost of living. The cost of living is the responsibility of the Government. It is as a result of their administration that we have the highest cost of living of any country in the world. No matter what juggling the Government may do with figures or in what way they present statistics to prove the contrary, one has only to hear the protests and the volume of criticism from all sections of the people to know that it is true. Nobody can say that there are not supplies of food available, but there is little use in having supplies available if the people have not the purchasing power to buy the food. What consolation is it to a hungry man to see a shop window full of bread and butter when they are not within his reach to satisfy his hunger? There is very little use in having bread, flour, tea and sugar available in large quantities when the people have not the means of purchasing these commodities.

Then, on the other hand, one hears the Taoiseach and the members of the Government continuously repeating that the people are living beyond their means. Everyone who has any dealings with the people knows that there are very few of them living beyond their means. The Government have never told us what section of the community were living beyond their means. Is it the old age pensioners who are in receipt of 21/6 per week? How can it be said that a sum of 21/6 per week will provide bread, butter, tea, sugar, fuel and clothing and a roof over their heads for the old age pensioners? Are those the people who the Government maintain are living beyond their means? Is the agricultural worker living beyond his means? The agricultural workers are put to the pin of their collar to eke out an existence with the low wage they are in receipt of. In many instances they have to depend on the kindness and generosity of their employers, who may be generous farmers. In parts of Ireland, however, these are very scarce. On the whole, however, if an agricultural worker gives good service, his employer will not see him short of a pound of butter, a dozen of eggs or abag of potatoes. If farmers were to pay their workers according to the strict letter of the regulations there would be no agricultural workers left. They would get out of rural Ireland as the wage is not sufficiently attractive. That is why we have such a continuous flow of emigration from rural Ireland. They cannot be expected to live in contentment with the cost of living as it is and the wages as they are owing to the attractiveness of the wages which are available on the other side of the Irish Sea.

The Government did not tell us whether that was the section of the community they were referring to when they said that the people were living beyond their means. If it is not the agricultural workers and the old age pensioner, is it the widows and orphans who are living beyond their means? Surely we must have some sense of responsibility towards that section of the community. While the widows may get pensions and allowances for the children and help from such charitable organisations as the St. Vincent de Paul Society, it cannot be said that they are living in the height of luxury and comfort which the Government tell us the vast majority of our people are enjoying to-day.

How is all that related to the Bill before the House?

I am endeavouring to demonstrate to the Government the necessity for an alteration in their policy with regard to these services, and it might not be any harm if the social services were overhauled and reconstructed at a very early date. The cost of living is having a very serious effect on the poorer sections of the community, and the Government have failed to bring in any measure of relief despite the numerous promises they made and the way in which they criticised the last Government in regard to the cost of living. During the last election and at by-elections since, the Government made repeated appeals to the workers. It was a great boast of theirs that Fianna Fáil began the system of food subsidies to keep down the cost of living by reducing theprices of essential foodstuffs. It is not very long ago that the Front Bench members of the Government spoke in very loud tones of voice, saying: "Do not let the Coalition propagandists deceive you. The workers' interests are safe with Fianna Fáil." Instead of the workers' interests being safe with Fianna Fáil, we have over 52,000 unemployed to-day. In addition to the 52,000 who are registered unemployed, we surely have an additional 30,000 who are not registered in accordance with the unemployment regulations. Unemployment, the cost of living and emigration show that we need a complete change of policy by the Government.

The question of credit was mentioned in the course of this debate. We all know that the astonishing and alarming rates of interest charged by the banking institutions of this country are a hindrance to the farming community from the point of view of increasing production. In addition, they are a considerable hindrance to the agricultural community from the point of view of the numbers of live stock on the land. If we want increased production and increased numbers of live stock on the land, the least we can expect is that funds will be made available at reasonable rates of interest.

Time and again the Government told us that there was no restriction of credit in that respect. Every farmer in the country knows there is restriction of credit and so does every businessman. If people engaged in agriculture, industry or any other profession need financial assistance and if they apply to any of our banking institutions to-day, they will be told that there is no credit available and that substantial securities would have to be offered before any credit could be given. There is a considerable restriction of credit by the Agricultural Credit Corporation and other Government concerns which are alleged to provide cheap rates of money for farmers to increase production, sow more and till more. There is a considerable restriction of credit even to those engaged in industry to extend and promote their business.

No matter what the Taoiseach or the Tánaiste may tell the House it can be proved beyond yea or nay that the banks and banking institution of this country, whether on the instructions or advice of the Government, or with or without the knowledge of the Government, are restricting credit. The Government know that the restriction of credit is having a very serious effect on the business life of this country. They know that the farming community cannot increase production and that live stock cannot be purchased to graze the lands of this country. It should be the duty of the Government, when their attention is drawn to the seriousness of the restriction of credit, to have an investigation held. Furthermore, the Government should not have to ask those engaged in the banking business if there is a restriction of credit. Were we to take the words of the Taoiseach there is not. I should like to hear from the Government what investigation is being carried out to prove there is no restriction of credit.

The Taoiseach said we were living beyond our means, which was a straight tip to the banks to close down.

There is no doubt about that. If there has been no credit restriction it would be very interesting for the information of the Government themselves, if not for the information of the general public, and for the confidential information of Deputies in this House to know what moneys have been advanced by the Irish banks during the past two years. There is little use in the Government talking about increased production; there is little use asking the farmers to increase the production of live stock for export unless there is capital available. The sooner the Government realise their responsibilities in that respect the better.

When one sees our workers flying from the country as a result of the high cost of living, not in dozens or in scores but in hundreds, it is about time some serious action was taken. But unemployment, emigration and the high cost of living are nothing new to FiannaFáil. Since they took office they have fostered no other policy but emigration. They have endeavoured to deny the people a decent standard of living in their own country. It is because the Government have made so many blunders in that respect and because their actions have been so irresponsible that they are afraid to face the people at general elections.

We all know the small section of the people who are alleged to be living beyond their means. We all know that section well. No section of the community can live beyond its means but that which has so generously subscribed to the Government's various loans and who have got so much easy money from the big interest that is paid by the Government on the money they invested. They are the people who are getting rich quick. They are the people who can get rich quick overnight. They are the only section of the people for whom this Government has done anything. They are the people who invested tens of thousands of pounds in the various Government loans.

At 5 per cent.

One does not expect to see agricultural workers, old age pensioners, widows and orphans, the blind, the sick and the lame, subscribe to the Government loan. The people who are getting rich quick overnight are the people who invest in the Government loans at 5 per cent. They are a very small section of the community. That small section of the community are living well, growing fatter and fatter and richer while the ordinary working-class citizen and taxpayer are growing thinner and thinner and poorer. The Government is inclined to cater more for the well-to-do section of the community. Despite the fact that the well-to-do section is a very small section, it is the most influential section of our people to-day and it holds the present Government in the hollow of its hand.

I think it is deplorable that we should have one section of the community getting rich overnight and another section either forced into emigration or unemployment. The lowwage policy of the present Government is something to be very much deplored. In the course of his speech a few moments ago Deputy Giles spoke of the slowness of certain Government Departments to seek increases in pay for various workers. If the people are to cope with the cost of living as it is there will have to be all-round increases in wages. What surprises me is the slowness of the various organised sections of the community, the trade unions and other organisations in authority, to demand such increases for the workers which would enable them to cope with the cost of living.

One cannot be satisfied with the manner in which the Government are carrying out schemes at the moment. A few weeks ago, we had the Emergency Employment Schemes Vote before the House. If we are to provide a solution for unemployment it must be in some way other than by emergency relief schemes.

The question of unemployment does not arise on this measure. This is a Bill to deal with Supplies and Services.

I was endeavouring to demonstrate the effect of the Government's low wage policy on emigration, and, consequently, on the cost of living.

There was an Estimate before the House recently when all that was canvassed extensively and it is not relevant on this Bill.

There is not much further comment that I have to make on that beyond reminding the Minister that this whole question of unemployment is not getting the serious attention from the Government that one would expect. I venture to say, without fear of contradiction, that if the inter-Party Government were in office to-day there would be no unemployment question in the country.

That is still less relevant on this Bill.

In conclusion, I want to make my protest against theGovernment's failure to deal sufficiently with the cost of living and with the other serious problems which are still awaiting a solution.

I should like to call attention to the statement of the Minister in his opening speech on the Estimate for this Department to the effect that the trade recession had come to an end, and that we had turned the corner. That seems to be a stock-in-trade phrase with the Minister. The people are fully aware that the trade recession in business is as acute to-day as ever it was. I know people who, a few years ago, were in business and pretty well off, and to-day they are trying to sell their houses so that they can clear out and emigrate. That is the story in my constituency and in my native town. I know a number of people who have their houses up for sale, but they cannot get rid of them. They are on the verge of bankruptcy. That is not a happy position for the Government to be in, and I would like to know what steps they propose to take to remedy it.

When the inter-Party Government was in office it was severely criticised for the rise in the cost of living. I would like to remind the House that, during its three and a half years in office, the cost of living increased only by nine points, while in the two and a half years that the present Government have been in office it has gone up by 14 points. That is not a happy position for the Government, in view of the fact that at the last general election they promised from every platform and at every chapel gate throughout the country that if returned to, power they would bring down the cost of living immediately. They criticised the inter-Party Government for their capital development schemes, for borrowing money and for accepting the Marshall Aid, but now they themselves have accepted responsibility for the repayment of the principal and interest of the Marshall Aid money because before they left office they had agreed to accept it.

The Marshall Aid money was veryuseful at the time and was prudently spent by the inter-Party Government. It was responsible for the increase that has taken place in our export trade during the years 1951-52 and in this year, and that increase in the export trade brought about the reduction in the balance of payments about which the present Government were very worried when they returned to office. That money was, in fact, borrowed at 2½ per cent. and was used for productive purposes. I am sure the Minister regrets having criticised the inter-Party Government for accepting that money, as well as other statements which he and members of the present Cabinet made about it.

The Minister went to Canada and America recently to explore the possibility of getting markets for our industrial products. He held out inducements to the Canadian and American capitalists to invest their money in this country, but at what price? At the rate of 5 per cent. Who was right or who was wrong in 1951 when the inter-Party Government was defeated all through false propaganda? I am sure that the present Government regret that because, occasionally, they have been adopting the schemes and policies which the inter-Party Government had been working successfully.

I am sure Deputies know that the cost of living is connected with the question of unemployment, which has increased very much in the past couple of years. When the inter-Party Government were in office they had schemes to provide work at a fair wage for every individual who was willing to work. There was food in plenty to buy. The housewife was not worried in the purchase of food which she was in a position to buy for her family every week. Now, the position is reversed. She has no money to purchase food. We have nothing now, as other Deputies have said, only complete poverty. The labour exchanges are working overtime to deal with the number of applicants for the dole. That is the position at the moment.

I should like to know if the Government are devising any scheme to alter that situation. I think that the Government quite recently got a severe warning that the people are definitelydissatisfied with their policy. Even though a high rate of interest was offered in connection with the last national loan, it was not oversubscribed. That is not a happy condition of affairs. I fear it is an indication that even the moneyed and the capitalist classes have lost confidence in the Government.

I would urge the Minister to make a serious effort to provide some employment in my town and stop the flow of emigration from it. There were hopes some time ago of getting an industry started there. There is an energetic committee there who have procured the necessary local contributions, but every time they are about to realise their ambition some snag crops up and they are back where they started. I know the Minister is sincere in his industrial drive. and if he is satisfied that industrial production in this country is increasing I would ask him to give Sligo a chance of participating in that industrial drive. Unfortunately, I want to remind him of a statement he made on industrial development—I think it was in Clare, when he was opening an extension to a textile factory—that the West did not lend itself readily to industrial development. I think that was a very damaging statement, particularly in regard to the West of Ireland, where the Undeveloped Areas Bill is supposed to operate. If there are any snags the capitalists who are willing to invest their money in the West should be left to discover those snags rather than that the Minister responsible for industrial development should forewarn them: forewarned is forearmed. I am sure that on reflection he will admit that it was a rash statement to make.

When the Minister visited Sligo last he gave a warning—and he repeated it here last week—that undue publicity should not be given to the starting of a factory because no one knows what snags will crop up. We did observe that warning all along. No public representative that I know spoke of it or made any great shout about it; notwithstanding that the delay persists and, as far as I know, there are serious snags. I make a special appeal to theMinister to do everything possible to have that factory established there.

Mr. O'Higgins

This debate is generally availed of by Deputies to discuss the more pressing problems associated with rising prices and matters of that kind. I think it was on this occasion last year that the Opposition expressed considerable anxiety as to whether or not the Government had any effective policy for dealing with the question of rising prices. We can recollect that it was last year that the Minister, in effect, said to the people: "Sit tight and whistle, keep up your spirits, because things are going to be better; they certainly could not be worse." Some months have passed since and I do not know whether the Minister still thinks that there is a ray of sunshine around the corner.

There are very few of them here.

Mr. O'Higgins

There are plenty on this side of the House; I am not worrying about the Minister's Party. The position does appear to be that very little effort has been made to deal with the problem of the cost of living. There is naturally a feeling in the country that a Government, no matter how long it may be there, should at least have some policy for dealing with these matters. As I interpret the Minister's attitude to this question of rising prices and things of that kind, it is this: do nothing; leave things as they are, sooner or later a level will be found. That is sound enough if you have all the time you might desire available. It is sound enough if you are not concerned as to what the price level eventually obtaining might be; and, of course, it is sound enough if one does not concern oneself at all with the real value of workers' wages.

I suppose in recent months a certain uniformity of prices has been attained but it is a price level that is far above the capacity of the people to bear. I would like, and I think the House would expect, the Minister when concluding this debate to show some hope with regard to price levels. Examples have been referred to herefrom time to time by Deputies. We can recollect that the decontrol of meat that was effected by the Minister some time ago was hoped by him to end in a reduced price of meat to the ordinary consumer. Deputies will recollect that the ministerial announcement informing the people of the decontrol of meat contained the expression of belief by the Minister that this would result in a fall in meat prices. I move the adjournment of the debate.

Debate adjourned.
Barr
Roinn