Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 11 Nov 1953

Vol. 142 No. 12

Committee on Finance. - Vote 55—Wireless Broadcasting (Resumed).

Mr. D.J. O'Sullivan

When the debate on this Estimate was adjourned yesterday evening, very little remained for me to say on it. One particular innovation in recent times was distinctly interesting to many thousands of listeners in this country. I refer to the engagement of some of our first-class actors in Dublin for an historical sketch commemorating the memory of Robert Emmet. I believe that if we had more items of that nature we would wean many people away from the lighter types of amusement. They would take a greater interest in drama and educate themselves in the important historical events of our nation's history.

On the subject of music generally, I was somewhat concerned by, I will say, a very slight reference in the Minister's introductory speech. He said that, as a result of a popularity test, it would appear that American music is particularly popular with listeners in the country. I would ask the Minister, before accepting the opinion that he may take from any such popularity test, to consider the matter carefully.You will have a number of fanatical enthusiasts for one kind of music or another. These people will go to the trouble of filling in the various forms and returning them and making their opinion known. There are also magazines which cater for that type of person and which publish letters written by them—letters in which they make known their desire that Radio Éireann would devote practically all its broadcasting time to the type of music which they desire to hear.

I am sure the House will agree that that would be an extremely regrettable development in our wireless broadcast ing system. The amount of time devoted in our sponsored programmes to that type of music should be sufficient to satisfy the needs of those people. We do not feel that they should be left out of consideration but it is an undoubted fact that other facilities are also afforded to them. This House gave considerable relief in respect of the tax on dancing, and so forth. Those people have all these facilities for hearing the type of music they like to listen to.

In my view, we should give more consideration to the old people in their homes, to the people in institutions and to the ordinary worker who may not ever sit down and write a letter to anybody indicating what he or she regards as suitable entertainment. The radio may mean vastly more to those types of persons than a little part of the pleasure which enthusiasts derive from listening-in to the American type of music. In that connection, I think we should commend both our orchestras and, in the way of popularity, our light orchestra, which is comparable with any light orchestra in these islands and which makes many people enthusiastic to hear that type of music from our own radio station. If possible I think even more time should be devoted to broadcasts by that orchestra.

I endorse the appeal made by Deputy O'Donnell that some type of liaison should be developed between the Department for Post and Telegraphs and the Department of Education to see in what way we can facilitate theeducation of our children in the school with the help of the radio. So far, we have not made any progress in that direction. Surely it is a matter which is worth considering. We feel that the radio is an excellent medium for educating children on many aspects of education that may not come within the province of the teacher. There are many things which we think would be desirable. Take, for instance, the subject of civics. It would be easy to arrange that some competent body would broadcast a lecture that would be of interest to the young people in our schools.

We should not be chary in making use of our broadcasting system in the matter of adult education. I think we should give our workers—whether they be industrial workers, workers on the land or people working in shops, and so forth—something in the way of adult education on our radio. In the past few years, a wonderful development has taken place in the South of Ireland in the way of lectures. Many of our industrial and agricultural workers have graduated from these classes and are taking a great interest in education. I think we should make use of our broadcasting system to advance adult education.

Many of the Deputies who have spoken have referred to television. One or two who spoke said they felt that, technically, much was left to be desired in the field of television and that we should not interest ourselves in it until a higher standard had been reached. I do not think that that is a very fair viewpoint. If more progress has to be made in that medium, I think that, as it progresses, we should take a more active interest in it. From time to time, we pay lip-service in respect of the flight from the land, to the need for brightening up life in our countryside and providing the people there with facilities which they have not got and which may attract them away from the rural areas. If it should become possible in the course of a decade or so to bring to those people the amenities which many of their brothers and sisters are enjoying inanother country, we will brighten the life of our rural folk who have not the facilities for enjoyment which people in our cities and towns have. It is possible that a very large expenditure would be involved, but at least let us investigate the matter and get some estimate, as it becomes available to us, of what it would cost to give our people some enjoyment in that sphere of entertainment.

Deputy O'Donnell suggested that this was a matter on which it might be possible for the Governments of the Republic and the Six Counties to cooperate. In recent years, we have found several matters on which we could reach agreement and, quite possibly, this may be still another step towards surmounting the obstacle of the Border.

It has also been suggested that we make use of foreign services to publicise our anti-Partition propaganda. A few years ago, it was thought that the only medium left to us in the way of radio propaganda was the short-wave transmitter, but I note from the Minister's speech that he sees very little hope in that regard, due to the already overcrowded condition of the short-wave band. That is, of course, a fact, and I feel that a very short period on some American network might be far more valuable than considerable expenditure on more extensive short-wave broadcasts which people abroad may never receive. We want to convert those who have no faith in the ideas we believe in, and information conveyed by short-wave would reach only those who are extremely enthusiastic and already converted.

I note with interest that the Minister included in his survey a reference to the acquisition and putting into operation of high frequency apparatus in relation to the broadcasts of various sporting events. It would appear that the apparatus employed in recent years was not such as to make it possible to get a true picture of what transpired at these events and we get a distorted idea of the happenings at them.

I had the experience of being rather close to the operator at one of these sporting functions, a sport peculiar tothe part of the country I come from, bowling, and I know that it is extremely difficult to convey what happens at such events with the apparatus available up to now. So many people try to get publicity by gathering around the person giving the broadcast that he is not in a position to convey a true picture of what transpires. It will be interesting to see if the acquisition of this equipment will make it possible for us to get a better idea of what takes place at such gatherings.

Finally, I want to take umbrage at the criticisms offered by some Deputies in their desire to further the interests of the type of programme they desire. In putting these criticisms, they were apt to throw brick-bats at some of the less cultured programmes on the radio. We must devote some time to giving satisfaction to the majority of our people. One programme in particular was derided here last night, the "Take the Floor" programme, but I must say that I find, from speaking to people around the country, that that hour or so on Sunday is something they look forward to.

Mr. McQuillan

What part of the country?

Mr. D.J. O'Sullivan

Any rural part will get considerable enjoyment from listening to the vocalists presented in that programme and to the Garda céilí band. The programme should at least be given a trial for a longer period. I hesitate to refer to any particular programme because, in discussing this Estimate, we are apt to voice our own personal opinions, whereas it should be the object, as I am sure it is, of the broadcasting authorities to try to supply for all listeners a programme catering for all their tastes.

I am glad to note that a considerable advance has been made in relation to the broadcasts of the heavier type of music and of light music by our light orchestra. The introduction of variety of a national character and the extension of the time for broadcasting are also very welcome, but I should like to ask the Minister to condense the news items somewhat and give a little morepriority to matters which are of interest to the nation; to continue the topical talks recently introduced which are bringing to listeners a better appreciation of many news items and their effects on the country.

Mr. McQuillan

The subject matter of this Estimate is a rather controversial one. There are as many views on wireless broadcasting and on Radio Éireann as there are Deputies in the House. Big differences exist inside the various political Parties with regard to the type of programmes that should be presented on the radio, and many Deputies have strong feelings with regard to particular programmes; but it is essential that an Estimate such as this should be discussed, as it is being discussed, to a great extent, in a non-Party atmosphere. It would be a very bad thing to have a Party lineup in regard to it and I am glad to see that, so far, praise and criticism have come in equal proportions from both sides of the House. Deputies are pretty well representative of all sections and, as such, they should all be free, irrespective of the Party whips, to express their views on wireless broadcasting and on the conduct and operation of Radio Éireann generally. I feel that there is an all-round improvement in the broadcasts from Radio Éireann, and I hope this improvement will be maintained.

With regard to propaganda on Partition, there has been a good deal of talk in recent years about the great use that could be made of a short-wave radio station to expose the evils of Partition and for general propaganda purposes in that regard. While I am all for a strong line on the question of Partition, I feel that, when we have one means at our disposal, our present wavelength, we should make more use of it than we do for propaganda in connection with Partition. There is no use in Deputies saying that, if we had a short-wave station going, we could do miracles about exposing the evils of Partition. The point is that, poor as the available facilities may be, we make very little use of them for this purpose, and any case that has been made for the short-wave station has not been strengthenedby the example set so far in the use of the wavelength we have.

Deputy O'Donnell last night made what I think is a pretty sound suggestion, that, if we have news on Partition to give to the American public, a good way of putting it across would be to have records of statements and discussions sent to some group in America from whom we could buy time for their broadcasting on the transmission system of some American station. Even a limited period on one of these transmitters might be of more use, as Deputy O'Donnell stated, than beaming long harangues from a short-wave station. I am sure there is no use in my labouring the point as no doubt the Minister himself will look into it.

The next matter I should like to mention is the method by which news is presented. I would say that if one listens to a news broadcast from Radio Éireann and then listens to a news broadcast from the B.B.C., it is very hard at times to distinguish from which station the news is actually coming. It is only when one comes to the tail end of the announcements and gets some details of what happened in Cork last week or in Donegal this week, that one can be sure that it is an Irish news broadcast. What I am principally interested in in this connection is the slant given to the news items. Reuter is generally the source of information for news broadcast from the B.B.C. but the news as broadcast by the B.B.C. has always a slant, in my opinion, that will suit British taste. If anything goes wrong in some part of the world in which Britain is interested, you may be sure that in the presentation of that news item by the B.B.C. to the British people if the British position is not too healthy, so far as the news is concerned, the best side will be put out.

I do not see any reason in the world why we, in our broadcast services, should adopt the same kind of presentation—in other words, accept the slant given by the B.B.C. in its presentation of the news. There are many countries at the present time with whichmany of us here have great sympathy in their aspirations for freedom, and I do not like to hear on our broadcasting services a slant given, as it has been given on many occasions, in favour of what may be described as the aggressor in many cases, the British. Consequently, I should like if we had a fresher approach. Let us get a more neutral approach on the question of news items. There is no need to tamper at all with the news itself. That would be a terrible thing to do. There is no need to suppress news, either, but at any rate let it go out in such a way that the public will be able to judge for themselves who is wrong and who is right in whatever particular episode or incident is under review.

Another sore point arises in connection with the broadcasting of plays from Radio Éireann. I do not want to say too much on this matter in this House because one has to remember that everything one says here is recorded for all time, and that can have its disadvantages on certain occasions. I, however, want to go on record as saying that the question of censorship in Radio Éireann is of very great concern to the general public. There are in this country quite a number of people who would impose the heavy hand of censorship on a lot of items, reviews, plays, etc., that are at present coming across from Radio Éireann. I do hope that the Minister and his Department will not allow themselves to be intimidated by this cranky, touchy, squeamish section of the community. I dislike having to say it, in one way, but I think it should be said that we have quite a number of very squeamish people in this country who would like to pretend to the world that we are different from every other nation. There are a lot of people in this country who would like to paint the picture that we are just a little island of saints and scholars, but although we may have that record or merited that description in the past, it would be well to remind some of these people, so far as the saints and scholars are concerned, that the saints were not all scholars and the scholars were not all saints.

I hope the Minister will not allowhimself or his Department to be intimidated and as a result that we shall not have the production merely of insipid plays on the wireless suitable only to the outlook of a bunch of holy Marys. There are plays at times that may shock people but these plays were written, to my mind—at any rate some of them were written—for the purpose of shocking the people into a sense of reality. We have a lot of people here who lead very sheltered lives and they are horrified if, in listening to the wireless, they hear that there are people in the country who just do not have things as easy as themselves. Some people are horrified when they hear on the wireless that there are drunkards, or even worse, in Ireland and they protest immediately that plays where drunkenness is exposed, are not suitable for the general public to listen to. I think that drunkenness and things like it are social evils and you cannot deal with social evils unless they are shown up. One of the best possible ways of showing them up is to have the spotlight of publicity on them, to let people know these things happen.

One of the purposes for which these plays are written is to bring home to sheltered sections of the community that some unfortunates are not as well off as themselves. If these sheltered sections see through plays and books that things are not all well with the rest of the community, then they may be shocked into taking action to improve conditions. If we have these bad conditions in existence, it merely means that there is something wrong in our social system and these plays are a great help in showing up the weaknesses in our social system. As a result of such plays, public consciousness is awakened and something may be done about it. That is one of the reasons why the Minister should insist that plays that are thought-provoking, intelligent and awaken public interest, even though at times they may sound rather rude to sheltered people, must be allowed to be broadcast. If we are going to have a blanket of censorship imposed on us, then it is very easy for a person to turn the knob of the wireless and listen in to the B.B.C. It is, therefore, waste of time for the criticsI have mentioned to try to put across only one particular type of play.

With regard to a number of debates that have been broadcast, very seldom have I the opportunity or the time at my disposal to listen to them but I have on occasions listened to discusssions on various subjects. I do not want to be too critical but I had the feeling sometimes that the discussion was too pat, too slick and too full of old clichés.

As a matter of fact, all the contributions that I heard were of the most nauseating type from the point of view of backbone and so on. If people are allowed to talk and discuss matters on the wireless let them come out strongly if they so desire. I do not know whether the discussions are pre-arranged affairs or not—I hope they are not—but if some people have strong views on particular matters I think they should be allowed to express them, no matter whom they may hurt. Otherwise there is no benefit whatever in having these discussions.

The idea of these discussions is to get people to think for themselves and to realise that there are other ways of life and other countries outside Ireland. If we accept the position that only a few people in this country are to be allowed to think and to think for everybody else that will be a bad day for us. The more matters of a controversial nature are discussed on the wireless the better for the people as a whole. Some critics in this country must not have a very good opinion of the moral fibre and the intelligence of the Irish people if they insist at all times on protecting them. It would seem as if we cannot trust them outside the door.

The extraordinary thing about it is that the cream of our population, the boys and girls who leave this country every year, are exposed to all the evils that these so-called critics would prevent them from listening to on the wireless broadcasting system and, instead of facing the conditions in Great Britain and America and other places with their eyes open and being aware of the evils and pitfalls that await them, they go like lambs to theslaughter. If we are going to have a high wall erected around the country to shelter the few old decrepits that are left in it, I will not be a party to supporting any such move, whether through Radio Éireann or through censorship of other types.

I read the Minister's statement and I noticed that he said that the percentage of those who listened in to the cultural and educational programmes is not unsatisfactory. He thinks there is a tremendous interest in them. He did not disclose what the percentage is, but said that it is not unsatisfactory. I wonder who decides that it is not unsatisfactory. Has the Minister the deciding voice as to what is satisfactory or what is not? That is a very big decision to take and certainly the director of broadcasting and his staff are not entitled to take on themselves the position of judge as to what is or is not a satisfactory position with regard to those who listen in to the cultural and educational programmes and the people who are fond of light music.

The Minister went on to say that he was convinced that the future of An Tóstal and all Irish festivals depended on being able to offer the outside world an international forum for music and drama. I have no criticism to offer on that. I should like to say, however, that we should put first things first. The Minister and the director of Radio Éireann have a difficult task, in the broadcasting hours at their disposal, to balance what we describe as light entertainment and cultural and educational programmes. It is a matter on which it will be very hard to satisfy the entire listening public. As a matter of fact, it would be impossible. If the Minister leans too much in one direction to meet the popular demand for light music and light programmes, then he brings down criticism on himself from those who are interested in symphony concerts. I can see that he is in a very awkward position.

The reason I draw attention to his remarks about having a forum here for music and drama so as to attract foreigners is that I want to get thisclear. Supposing people come here from Austria and elsewhere and they attend a symphony concert in Dublin. When they find 50 per cent, of the orchestra is from their own country and they see Johnnie So-and-So from Vienna playing in it, they will say to themselves: "This Tóstal affair we understood was to show us Irish-Ireland or Ireland at home: yet we have some of our own pals playing in the orchestra in an Irish programme." The difficulty we are up against is that to a great extent we are trying to copy other nations in everything that is being done to-day. We are trying to do in a few years what possibly would take generations to bring about. If we are to get people to take an interest in what I might describe as heavy music surely that will not happen overnight. Surely we are not going to get the adult population, whose main interest is listening to jazz and American music, to change their views.

Therefore, instead of tackling the problem from the Dublin point of view, I want to get the Minister to consider this. There is only one way you can get this type of education across and that is by getting at the youth. If you train them to appreciate good music, then they will not forget it all their lives. It is much better to postpone the hope of success until the boys and girls between ten and 15 grow up. There is one way of training these boys and girls and that is by having a wireless set in every school in Ireland. It is not, perhaps, relevant to this Estimate, but it would be interesting to know how many schools in this country have a wireless set.

I would like to add my voice to that of others in asking the Minister to get into serious discussion with his colleague, the Minister for Education, and to explore the possibility of having installed in every school in rural Ireland a wireless set. Suitable programmes, both musical and otherwise, could be prepared so that youth at the age when they can absorb good music will be trained to appreciate good music and good programmes. That would be a more practicable way of making the public music-conscious than talking about symphony concerts inDublin that will be broadcast occasionally. As far as the listening public with whom I am familiar are concerned, very few listen to them.

I do not want to be taken as trying to curtail the enjoyment of those who are anxious to listen to symphony concerts, but I would like a chance to be given to the younger people to get that training which would enable them to appreciate those programmes at a later stage.

I think the ground has been covered already but I want to mention a matter in connection with television. I think the Minister in his statement said that television was inevitable. Now that, to my mind, is an extraordinary way of describing what is one of the greatest benefits to mankind in recent years. I was rather disappointed by the spirit of his approach to television because so far he has shown himself to be a man of vision and one with a certain amount of courage in criticism. He can correct me if I have quoted him wrongly but I think he said that the coming of television was as inevitable as the coming of the motor-car. If that is his view and if we start to argue that logically it would follow that, when the first tin lizzy came round the corner in this country, the people should have put off buying that until they could purchase the latest Hudson, the latest Ford Consul or Ford Zephyr.

Look at the tremendous improvements which have taken place all down the line in the assembly, making and planning of the motor-car but that did not prevent people buying the motor-car when it came out because it was beneficial. There will be improvements of a technical nature in television but if we take the initial step of preparing an estimate of what it would cost it would not mean that the television plant or installations would have to be scrapped if improvements were to take place. It would only mean adjustments and changes in the installations. It is the recorded opinion of experts on television that adjustments and so forth can be made and it would not mean a complete scrapping of the television installations.

Are we waiting until the thing is going to be absolutely perfect? Have we any guarantee that it is going to be perfect? Every country in the world has television. Are we waiting in the hope of getting television as cheaply as possible? Seeing that we have such progressive views in many lines and choose to spend money rather lavishly on other developments, I think we should not hesitate at all to go ahead and explore the possibilities of putting television into operation within a very short space of time.

I am not at all enamoured of the suggestion of co-operation with the Government of the Six Countries on the question of a television station. If some of the Deputies who made that suggestion sat back and thought for a moment they would discover that earlier in their speeches they mentioned that one of the advantages of a short-wave radio station was to beam to America and elsewhere the terrible evils of Partition. It would be thought a comical position to have Radio Éireann broadcasting the evils of Partition on the short-wave station while at the same time you had the two Governments setting up a television station here to broadcast unanimous approval. I do not think it would be practicable. It would not work out. I should much prefer that the Minister and the Department would go ahead and explore the possibilities of bringing television to this country as soon as possible. I will finish by asking the Minister to show the same courage in tackling television as he has shown in tackling other pretty knotty problems in regard to the Department for which he is responsible.

Mr. Keyes

I am prompted to intrude a few remarks by reason of Deputy Desmond's references to the utilisation of the Cork station. I wish to see the further utilisation of the Cork station because of its availability to local contributors. It is adjacent and available to a wide area in Munster. I should like to see an extension of the local talent both instrumental and vocal. The situation of Cork would suit those people very much because of the low standard of payment given to some of these peoplewhen they come to Dublin for a 15 or 20 minute engagement. What with their travelling and general expenses there is very little, if anything, left of the fee they get for their services. For that reason alone I should like to encourage a greater utilisation of the Cork station and I should like to see a wider range of local talent.

We derived great enjoyment from the local competitions, particularly the singing competitions which have brought to light the latent talent of our country. They have succeeded in giving us some interesting voices of which the country is justly proud. I certainly derived great pleasure from listening to the runners-up and the general competitors. I consider that the standard was very high indeed. There is a great deal of latent talent waiting to be developed and I think our national broadcasting system ought to give it fairly frequent opportunities of being heard over the air.

Not only would I like to hear the singers but I should like also to have instrumentalists given an opportunity of being heard over the air, players of the flute, the violin and the uilleann pipes. The latter seem to have disappeared almost completely off the Radio Éireann programmes. The uilleann pipes are a nice, choice instrument with good historical traditions. Provided that players of the uilleann pipes have sufficient competence to pass a test they ought to be allowed to come on the air more frequently than they have in recent times.

What I am going to say now is not intended to be a pun but for the love of Mike why not improve the reception from the Cork Station? No matter how excellent a programme may be the reception from Cork is deplorable, and in some cases it is non-existent. If the station were put into some kind of a decent state it would save a lot of sulphurous remarks and frustration in the end.

I have one very unhappy recollection. On one occasion a Northern football final and a Southern hurling final were simultaneously relayed. There was a crowd who wanted to hear the hurlingmatch. We tuned in, but reception was very bad and we dashed away in a motor-car to another radio-set which was a mile away only to find that the position was the same. There were 30 or 40 people clamouring around. One little boy with his ear to the set said: "Cork has scored." Immediately afterwards he said: "Tipperary has scored." He was the only boy in that town who heard the relay of the hurling match between Cork and Tipperary. That is no exaggeration.

The complaint with regard to the Cork station is not recent. It is of long standing. I have tuned in from Limerick, Clare and other counties but I have never tuned in from Cork. I am told it is no better down there than in the surrounding counties. I would seriously suggest to the Minister that if the station is to continue it ought to be put into a proper state of efficiency.

Mr. Childers

A new transmitter is going up.

Mr. Keyes

I consider that from the point of view of clarity and delivery the reception I get from Radio Éireann is equal to the best that can be got from any other station in the world. That is not so when one is tuned in to Cork. The complaint in this respect is general. There seems to be no serious attempt made to improve it. I encounter some interference on Dublin and Athlone, but that is because some electrical gadget is operating in the neighbourhood. When I tune in to Cork the reception is appalling.

Is it because of some technical defect that the reception from Cork is so poor? Whatever it is, I would ask the Minister to hold an inquiry into the matter and see what is wrong with the Cork station. I am surprised that the Cork Deputies did not kick up about it themselves.

Mr. Childers

The transmitter is being replaced and a new one is going up.

Mr. Keyes

I am speaking from personal experience going back over very many years. The only point I want to make in conclusion is to ask the Minister to make an inquiry as to what iswrong with the Cork Station. I am just wondering whether what is wrong is due to myself or to the Cork Station. I would be glad if the Minister would have the matter inquired into. It should not be beyond the capacity of the technicians engaged in his Department to correct it. If they succeed in doing so, it will save a lot of frustration and annoyance at the other end of the line.

Mr. O'Gorman

I, like Deputy Keyes, propose to be very brief in what I have to say on the Estimate. I was not able to be here for the Minister's opening statement, but I read it with keen interest in the newspapers this morning. As far as I am concerned, I want to say that I see nothing at all wrong with Radio Éireann. I personally feel that it is giving very good value for money. I should like to offer my little tribute to the Minister on the programmes which are presented. In my opinion they have improved considerably over the last 12 months.

Some of us in this House are very sensitive at times as regards what comes over Radio Éireann. It is true to say that it would be impossible to please everyone. I should like to express my view as to what Radio Éireann is doing for us. I think it is presenting as good programmes for us as those we get from the many stations which appear on the dial of our radio sets. I should like to speak on this Estimate as one who takes a keen interest in music. I speak as a lover of music, as one who has been studying music since I was being taught the piano at the age of six or seven years. Speaking with that experience, I think that the programmes which are given to us by Radio Éireann should, and must, suit the most fastidious tastes amongst us.

We have the habit in this country of always decrying our own efforts where music is concerned. I speak as one who knows music fairly well, as one who has spent many years trying to learn it and is still trying. I want to say to the Minister: "You are doing a good job with Radio Éireann at the present time."

We hear a lot of criticism from time to time about some of the plays which are put across by Radio Éireann. I see nothing wrong with them at all. They depict the Irish people as they are here at home. We are very sensitive sometimes if something comes over which is not palatable to the extra-sensitive, or supersensitive, people amongst us.

Mr. Davin

What about the Playboy?

Mr. O'Gorman

There may be something in it which I would not like. As one who has been listening-in for many years to Question Time, I would like to say that I think the new Question Time is excellent, and "excellent" is the word that I select to describe it. I listen with intense interest to every bit of it, and I think it is quite good. What I did object to at Question Time, over the last eight or ten years, was that, when it came to adjudicating between certain people at half-time, the compére practically put the answer into the mouth of the person who was standing in front of the microphone. I will not say that it was done deliberately.

What I like about the present compére is that he is quick, sharp and musical, and that is really what we want. There comes to you from him just what is inside your own brain. Whether it be a two, four or six mark question, the answer should be left to the persons standing in front of the microphone to do the best they can without any prompting. That is what I like about the present Radio Éireann Question Time—that there is no prompting from the compére. I think the programmes are excellent. I would like to say that I enjoy the new Question Time very much indeed. We hear some people criticise the programmes which are run under the name of that very popular gentleman called Din Joe. I think that Din Joe is doing a great job of work.

Mr. McQuillan

Where is he from?

Mr. O'Gorman

He is not from Cork, anyway. It may be, judging from the criticism we hear, that he is from West Cabra. He has an excellent accent andI think that his programme is an excellent one. After all, those of us who, perhaps, spent part of our holidays in our boyhood days in rural Ireland can well remember the dances on the cement floors in the cottages or in the farm houses. Those were happy days. I think that Din Joe is doing a great work in his popular programmes in resuscitating interest in, and bringing back to us, music with which we were familiar in our boyhood days. I would like to say to the Minister that Radio Éireann is a good station and that it should be able to get anywhere.

We have heard criticism of people with Oxford accents. In my opinion, the elocutionary powers of the person who is supposed to have an Oxford accent are much superior to those of various speakers we hear from time to time over the radio from other countries. I think that the elocution and enunciation of this particular speaker are almost perfect. They are excellent. I say that because I think it is only right to pay tribute where tribute is due.

The only fault I have to find is with the reception. Last year, when listening to the debate on this Estimate, I heard someone suggest that the reason for that might be the use of an old or obsolete set. I want to say that down in the South of Ireland we find it very hard to get Radio Éireann.

Mr. Davin

What about Din Joe?

Mr. O'Gorman

We get him all right. We find it very hard to get Radio Éireann any time we tune in from 9 p.m. onwards. The reception from Radio Éireann may be all right for a minute or two. You are enjoying its programme, and then, suddenly, you are punched by some powerful foreign station on your right or on your left, and you are squeezed out and completely cut out. The annoying part of it is that from the station which cuts you out you have perfect reception and clarity. The music on it is magnificent. In the case of Radio Éireann you are left like a Lilliputian, being squeezed in between two giants.

Deputy Keyes mentioned complaints that he had received about the Cork station. I, too, have received complaints from parts of my constituency about that station. I live in Youghal, which is only 30 miles from Cork. About last Christmas I got new sets into my two houses. On one of them I cannot get Cork at all. That seems a pity because Cork is a very musical city, and all Cork people are very musical. What I want to emphasise is that it seems a pity, in the case of a transmitting station situated within 30 miles of your home, that you cannot get the reception which you so much desire. I should like to quote shortly from a letter which I received from a constituent of mine asking me to raise this matter on this Estimate and to bring it to the notice of the Minister. The writer says that: "It is a matter of considerable public annoyance down in this district each evening after 7 p.m. that Radio Éireann simply does not exist. It is being completely wiped out by interference from powerful foreign stations."

That is the point I have made already myself, that the Cork transmission is completely inaudible after 9 p.m. It is something that I cannot understand. I think I remember somebody saying some other year on the Estimate that this interference was due to some set behind the Iron Curtain which does not conform to any international law. I should like to know from the Minister whether there is an international board that allocates a certain point to the various countries. It does seem a pity that Radio Éireann is being crushed out in this way when one is listening to a most enjoyable programme from the station. What I say is happening in my home town of Youghal and in various areas in East Cork. I might say that there is perfect reception of the 9 o'clock news in the morning and of the 1.30 news. In fact, there is perfect reception all day up to 9 at night, when the foreign stations seem to converge on us and cut out completely the programmes from Radio Éireann. That, as I say, seems a pity. I do not know really whether the Minister can do anything about that. I was led to believe on previous occasions that he cannot.If, for instance, pirate stations send out programmes and if they do not conform to the international code of decency, the Minister cannot be blamed for that.

Radio Éireann caters for all tastes. People who are fond of symphony orchestras are considered. There is another point in regard to reception in my area. If a Deputy is sick at home and wants to listen to reports at 10 o'clock, the reception is so bad at this hour that he may be completely cut out. However, I believe that Radio Éireann is good value for the money. They are sending out programmes to suit most people and I am glad to be able to admit that. If the Minister could do something to make Radio Éireann more coherent to the listening public, I feel there would be no further complaints in the matter. Down the country there is a radio in almost every house. Radio Éireann presents what people in rural Ireland want to listen to. It is our own station. We are proud of it, and I think the Minister is doing his best to improve it.

Mr. Finan

I would like to join with other Deputies in complimenting the Minister on the improvements effected in Radio Éireann. Everybody who listens in has recognised that improvement. However, I do not want the Minister to imagine that everything is now perfect and that he can sit back; I am sure the Minister himself would be the first to admit that there is vast room for improvement.

I recognise the truth of what has been said by other Deputies, that no Minister will ever manage to satisfy all listeners. That is an utter impossibility and I do not think it would be good if he could. There are individual tastes which it would be impossible to satisfy on every occasion and I think I am safe in saying that the present board and the Minister are making an honest effort to cater for all tastes.

I do disagree, however, with the policy in relation to the presentation of drama. Regardless of what has been said by others, I do not think the Irish race, as it is now at any rate, is being depicted inthe drama put across by Radio Éireann. It may be true to say that it would depict the Irish race of 100 or 200 years ago but not now. Our country has advanced remarkably within the last 50 years and while it might not be a reflection on the Irish race to depict them as they did exist 100 years ago, I do not think that we need to perpetuate it. In our boyhood days we often heard of the resentment of the Irish people at the manner in which Irish people were represented on the British stage. We all heard about the stage Irishman as depicted in Britain. Why should we try to do what we condemned the British for doing?

I have heard plays from Radio Éireann even recently and I am quite sure—and I have been in every county in Ireland—they do not depict Irish life, as I know it, in any way, in the public-house, the dance hall, or the home. They merely reproduce the stage Irishman as he was represented 100 years ago or even later. The sooner we break away from that type of presentation the better. I doubt if the authors of those dramas intended them to be interpreted in that way.

I do not agree with the suggestion that there are Oxford accents on Radio Éireann. I respect the Irishman who can speak the English language fluently and correctly. It is a good thing to have on Radio Éireann people who can speak faultless English and that is what Radio Éireann has now.

My approach to the question of drama is not that of Deputy McQuillan. Deputy McQuillan thinks we should not hide our faults. My view is that the plays presented on Radio Eireann are not a correct representation of the people here. I do not think that some of the language we have heard in these productions reflects any credit on either the dramatist or the actor. We can produce good Irish plays. We can produce plays to which a man would not be afraid to let his family listen. These are the plays we would like to have and it is to be hoped that in future we will not have the type of play which is merely a caricature of the Irish people.

If there can be no justification forsetting up a short-wave station other than to deal with the Border problem I do not think we should take this step. I do not want to refer to the Border on this Estimate except to say that when the people North and South of the Border understand each other the Border will go and not till then. You can make a subject detestable and get on people's nerves by constant repetition. If we were to produce over and over again details in connection with the Border, listeners would very soon turn to some other station.

I feel we should have more sponsored programmes if it could be arranged. Apart from being a source of revenue they can be very interesting. Some of the sponsored programmes are very entertaining. In general I do not think anybody could find fault with the programmes on Radio Eireann. There is one programme which might reasonably and humanly be expected to cause disagreement and that is the programme dealing with what happens in this House. No Deputy on any side could, I feel, complain of the presentation of the activities in the Dáil. Both programmes "Today in the Dáil" and "The Week in Leinster House", are presented in a very impartial way. I listen to these programmes regularly and I think everybody is perfectly satisfied with them.

There is no reason why we should detain the Minister or the House on this Estimate. It is not a contentious matter and what I have said is not by way of criticism. I am merely making suggestions which may commend themselves to the Minister and to the body responsible for broadcasting in Radio Éireann.

Mr. O. Flanagan

Usually the debate on the Estimate for wireless broadcasting is one that passes with every speed. It is only right that when the Minister presents this annual Estimate we should give it the closest possible examination, since it is an extremely important part of a Government service. It is true that the number of licensed radio receivershas increased—whether it is that the number of listeners has increased or whether more efficient steps have been taken by the Department to collect the wireless licences, is another question. No matter what praise we may have here for Radio Éireann, very few of our listeners listen to Radio Éireann while Radio Luxembourg is on the air. They usually listen to Radio Éireann when they have nothing else to listen to.

Radio Éireann is very far behind the times. The only improvement in the service is the morning sponsored programmes from 8 to 9. Most of the time the station is closed down. I welcome the idea of extending the broadcasting times. In regard to the lunch-time programme from 1 to 2.30, very many people in certain industries have their lunch-time from 2 to 3 and in many concerns there are relays of lunch. Therefore, it would be wise to extend the lunch-time programme from 1 to 3. Again, Radio Éireann is one of the few radio stations that closes down at 11 o'clock. In country districts people are usually returning home from a chat at the cross-roads or a meeting or from outdoor business and arrive home between 10.30 and 11. If they are interested in Radio Éireann they are in time only for the sports commentary and the National Anthem.

The station closes at 11 o'clock, except for the item "To-day in the Dáil," when the time may be extended for ten or 15 minutes. I am sure the Minister could arrange—and I doubt if the director of broadcasting would have any objection—to keep the station open until midnight. I could never find what objection there was to doing that. The B.B.C. and other stations can fill in a programme up to midnight; yet Radio Éireann must close down at 11 o'clock. It would be wise if steps were taken to enable listeners to avail of the services up to midnight.

Deputy Everett very properly referred to the aliens employed by Radio Éireann. I want to say this much in that connection, for the records of the House, for the records of the Minister and for the future informationof everybody concerned— that if there is ever a change of Government and if I have any say either to or within that Government the first people who will go will be those foreigners employed in Radio Éireann. I want to dissociate myself entirely and completely from any hand, act or part in the provision of employment by Radio Éireann for those aliens brought in by the Minister and encouraged by the present director of broadcasting. It is against the wishes of the majority of the people who hold licences for radio-sets that these people should be employed in Radio Éireann. It is disgraceful and improper. No Irish Government should tolerate the employment of aliens in preference to our own. I would prefer a thousand times over to have no orchestra than to use the talents of those aliens brought in here entirely against the wishes of the Irish people. I want to make it very clear that it is not the wish of this side of the House that these people be employed there. If there is a change of Government they may understand that and may take this as notice to quit, as they will be the first people to be shifted and removed.

I want to take this opportunity of paying a great tribute to the stand taken by the Labour Party in this respect. It is only right that all of us who believe in extending fair play to our own, in seeing that Radio Éireann as far as possible is comprised of Irish nationals, should protest against those aliens being brought in here against the wishes of the members of this House and of the majority of the Irish people. I fail to understand why the Minister has those people. I fail to understand why, according as vacancies arise, no matter what part of the world they may come from, they will be put in receipt of a good wage, paid as a result of the Vote provided in this House from the taxpayers of this country. I want to add my voice in expressing dissatisfaction, in expressing alarm and in expressing surprise; and in giving this note of warning, that as soon as there is a change of Government those people will be the first people listed for dismissal within 24 hours. I haveno apology to make to anyone for that statement. I stand for their removal, as I think it is wrong to have them employed there. They are causing grave dissatisfaction, not alone to public-spirited citizens but to every decent Irish taxpayer and ratepayer who has to foot the bill to pay for those aliens. That is all I have to say on that particular issue, but I hope it will prove sufficient. If an opportunity presents itself when more can be said on this matter, more will be said and possibly what has to be said will be reinforced with a little action.

I do not altogether agree with the manner of appointing the director of broadcasting; neither do I agree with his tactics. I would like the Minister to give the House some information in relation to one particular matter. Has the Minister seen the file of correspondence that passed between Mr. Eric Boden and the director of broadcasting?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy must understand that it is the Minister who has responsibility to this House for the administration of wireless broadcasting, and no one else.

Mr. O. Flanagan

Then we may take it that the Minister is responsible to this House for the secrecy surrounding the stoppage of Mr. Eric Boden's Question Time programme. I do not say that I enjoyed his programme, or that I was in favour of it. I do not say that it has not been replaced by a better programme. Nevertheless, I feel that he got a raw deal.

Mr. Childers

The Deputy is talking scandal as usual.

Mr. O. Flanagan

Furthermore, I would like the Minister in the course of his reply to give us some idea of the communications that passed between Mr. Boden and Mr. Gorham. From the information at my disposal I think Mr. Gorham excelled himself in reprehensible tactics.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have already told the Deputy that he may not criticise the director. He may criticise the Minister within the Rules of Order and relevancy. The Minister is the soleperson responsible to this House for what happens in relation to wireless broadcasting. The director has no method of redress and for that reason it is doubly unfair to bring a personality into the limelight in this fashion.

Mr. O. Flanagan

I challenge the Minister to publish the correspondence that passed between his Department and Mr. Boden when he comes to reply. Will the Minister tell us what notice Mr. Boden had of the ending of his Question Time programme? Will he tell us what suggestions Mr. Boden put forward to his Department for improving that programme?

Will he tell us what volume of correspondence was received in his Department from listeners in connection with this programme? Will he give us the reasons for the hasty decision to suspend all programmes sponsored by Mr. Boden? If the Minister does not give us that information, then I respectfully suggest that he must have some reason for keeping it from the public. I understand that the Press phoned the Department and asked for information in relation to the correspondence that passed between the Minister's Department and Mr. Boden and that information was refused. If the matter is above board and if there are no sinister reasons for the removal of Mr. Eric Boden from Radio Éireann, why the fear of publicity? Why not disclose the correspondence? Why was Mr. Boden put off the air? Who had fault to find with him? Where did the complaints come from? Was it the staff of the Minister's Department that found fault with him? Is it true that Mr. Boden was given instructions by one of the senior officers in charge of broadcasting to carry out the programme as the senior officer wanted it carried out? I think it is grossly unfair for a man like Mr. Boden to be taken so short by the Radio Éireann authorities.

The general public have rather suspicious minds and the fact that there was great haste and deep secrecy surrounding this matter has led people to believe that there were many reasons why this hasty action was taken by Radio Éireann. On nooccasion has the Minister referred to this matter. Despite the fact that numbers of people have written to the Department asking for information, no information has ever been forthcoming.

I do not know if the Minister was associated with Mr. Boden's case, but I think the tactics adopted were unworthy and uncalled for, and I would particularly like to know why Mr. Boden's removal was surrounded with such grave secrecy. Why, within a very short space of time after the cessation of Mr. Boden's Question Time, was it replaced by Mr. Joe Linnane's Question Time? Possibly his Question Time programme is a better one. The people may find it more engaging, but I am left with the feeling that Radio Éireann authorities were in touch with Mr. Linnane before ever Mr. Boden was removed. Is that a fact? Are such tactics right? Are they proper? The ground was cleared for Mr. Boden was actually employed by Radio Éireann.

The Minister is responsible for the activities of his Department and, from that point of view, he must shoulder the responsibility for the state of affairs that existed in connection with Mr. Boden's Question Time and his removal from the employment of Radio Éireann.

I want to refer now to the programmes that are put on by Radio Éireann. I think it is a disgrace that we should present on our national broadcasting station such a play as The Playboy of the Western World.Reference has already been made here to the programme entitledTake the Floor.That presentation is a downright disgrace, for it does nothing except make a jeer and a skit of Irish country life. Decent people refuse to listen to such rubbish.Take the Flooris designed for no other purpose than to make a jeer and a skit of Irish country life. As the Minister knows, Irish country life to-day is not as portrayed in that particular programme or inThe Playboy of the Western World.I hope the Minister will take steps to cut out thisTake the Floorprogramme altogether in future.

Mr. Childers

The Deputy had better ask his colleague, Deputy O'Gorman, about that.

Mr. O. Flanagan

Deputy O'Gorman cannot take the programme off. It is the Minister who is responsible. If Deputy O'Gorman expresses an opinion of appreciation of that programme I am equally entitled to express my opinion of disapprobation. The programme is a disgrace. It is disgusting, and the majority of the decent people in the country refuse to listen to it. Radio Éireann has come down to a very low level, indeed. I am not surprised at the Minister, but I am surprised at certain people who are influential in Government circles toleraating such a presentation as The Playboy of the Western Worldon Radio Éireann.

In connection with these sponsored programmes, what money is made on these programmes? I believe many concerns would like to avail of these for advertising purposes, but I am told the cost is prohibitive. I have also been told that in certain special circumstances fees are reduced. What are the qualifications necessary in order to secure reduced fees for a sponsored programme? I should like to know what machinery the Department have for determining whether a particular concern will have a sponsored programme over Radio Éireann at a cheap rate or must pay the most they can possibly be charged. There are many concerns who would advertise through the medium of Radio Éireann if the charges were more attractive. I certainly agree with Deputy Finan that the sponsored programmes are the only programmes that are in any way attractive to the ordinary country listener.

Broadcasting of the news has been vastly improved since the arrangements were made within the past six or eight months whereby news is broadcast under the heading "News from the Country" or "News from the Districts." The ordinary country listener who tunes into Radio Éireann is not interested in what is happening in China, or Japan or the exchange of prisoners in Panmunjon but he is interestedin what is happening in Mullingar, Cavan, Galway, Dublin. Radio Éireann is inclined to give world news rather than local news. The listener in the Slieve Bloom Mountains is not interested in the conferences in Panmunjon or trials in Persia. He is interested in local news and racing results. The broadcasting authorities should be encouraged to extend their programme of "News from the Districts."

The news broadcast in the morning seems to be more detailed and to give more Irish news than the news broadcast at lunch time or night time. Those well advised to give more local news and to cut out a lot of continental and Far East news, in which listeners are not interested.

I take this opportunity of paying a tribute to the person responsible for the broadcast of the news in Irish. The language used is simple. Those who have not a thorough knowledge of Irish but who have some knowledge of the language can understand it. I do not know whether it is the announcers or those who prepare the scripts who are responsible, but whoever is responsible deserves a word of appreciation and thanks.

A Deputy referred to the accents of the various announcers. It is difficult to satisfy some people. If the announcers speak with a flat accent, they will be criticised. If they speak nicely they will be criticised. It is difficult to know what some people want. The people want an accent that they can understand. The quicker the Oxford accent is cut out of broadcast announcements the better.

Mr. Dunne

The Oxford accent and Din Joe—the two go hand in hand.

Mr. O. Flanagan

I have dealt with Din Joe. At the conclusion of the programme one hears the announcement: "Now you will have the weather forecast for farmers and fishermen." How did they link farmers and fishermen? Many fishermen resent being associated with farmers. Many farmers resent being associated with fishermen. I should be glad if the Minister could indicate to the House the reason for this association. I cannot understandhow bad fishing weather could affect some of the farmers in my constituency.

Mr. McCarthy

Is there not a Department of Agriculture and Fisheries?

Mr. O. Flanagan

Yes, but I cannot see where the relationship comes in in regard to weather forecasts. It is definitely resented. The Minister or those in charge may not know that. The smallest farmers are the proudest of all, and they dislike being associated with fishermen. Fishermen dislike being associated with farmers.

Mr. Blaney

The weather affects both farmers and fishermen.

Mr. O. Flanagan

It is wrong that the weather forecast should be announced in this way. Many small farmers and fishermen resent it.

Mr. Childers

They can both go on resenting it, if it is true that they do resent it.

Mr. O. Flanagan

As far as the Minister is concerned, they can. There were Ministers before the present Minister and there will be Ministers after him. Do not forget. If it is not changed now, it will be changed in time to come.

The programme feature, "To-day in the Dáil", gives a full, accurate and very fair account of the proceedings in this House. I have listened very carefully to the programme and I cannot see that it has been linked with politics in any way. It gives a fair report of Fianna Fáil speeches, Labour speeches and Fine Gael speeches. I hope the programme will be continued along the same non-political lines as it appears to be travelling.

The feature, "The Week in Leinster House", broadcast at 9.30 on Saturday night, for a long time did not smell too good but has become good within the past couple of months. For a long time "The Week in Leinster House" was used simply to boost the present Tánaiste, his ability as a speaker, his ability as a Minister, his ability at this, that and the other. Deputies who have listened to the programmesince will realise that that was the case up to about two months ago. I do not know what caused the change but for the past two months there has been a change.

Up to about two or three months ago the Tánaiste's name was mentioned ten times for every time that a Deputy's name was mentioned otherwise. I know very well that this was done with the object of trying to build up the Tánaiste to replace the Taoiseach, but I do not think that Radio Éireann should be allowed by the Dáil to do that. It is going to take some building up to do that by any member of the Government and the Minister particularly, because only for the Tánaiste the Minister would not be Minister for Posts and Telegraphs. Probably that is one of the reasons why every effort was made to boost up the Tánaiste in the broadcast of "This Week in the Dáil".

Mr. Childers

More muck raking.

Mr. O. Flanagan

I cannot understand the accent any more than some of the Oxford accents on Radio Éireann. I want to say that it was a disgraceful thing for whoever was in charge of it up to some time ago—I do not know who it was, but whoever it was seemed to have the deliberate intention of boosting up the Tánaiste. That I think was wrong and disgraceful, and I am glad that it has stopped. I do not know who stopped it, but the fact that it was stopped is very highly appreciated. If you want to build up the Tánaiste to replace the Taoiseach there are other ways of trying to do it.

Mr. MacCarthy

His own good work will do it.

Mr. O. Flanagan

I am sure that the Taoiseach would not like that either, that he would not like to see anybody being prepared to step into his shoes as a result of a scheme of propaganda by Radio Éireann or anybody else. I warn the Minister that that type of codology will not last very long. It has been found out and it is a bad policy and it is only open to very severe criticism, and criticism from supporters of the Governmentwho dislike the idea of the Taoiseach's boots being filled by the Tánaiste. I think it is wrong that Radio Éireann should be used for that purpose in the programme, "This week in the Dáil". Up to about two months ago the Tánaiste was mentioned at least ten times compared with any other Deputy in a debate.

Mrs. Rice

I would like to tell Deputy Flanagan that the Tánaiste does not require any building up by him.

An Ceann Comhairle

That statement has been made by Deputy Flanagan three or four times and perhaps he will pass to some other phase of broadcasting.

Mr. O. Flanagan

I will pass on to the next point. I do want to say as far as the programme. "To-day in the Dáil", is concerned that it is most impartial and gives a most detailed account without paying any regard whatever to the political affiliations of any Deputy. I hope and trust that that programme will continue, even to greater length. The only regret that people have about that programme is that they want it to give a more detailed account of the statements made by Ministers when introducing their estimates or Bills, and also to give a more detailed account of the observations made by Deputies of all Parties in that connection.

With regard to political broadcasts such as we had before the last general election, I think it is a very good idea. It is an idea that went down very well in the last two Budgets when we had the leaders of the various Parties expressing their opinions, and on occasions such as that those political broadcasts from the leaders of the various Parties should be undertaken.

I do not agree entirely with the idea that the scripts of the leaders of the various Parties should have to be submitted for close examination by the broadcasting authorities. If we are going to have political talks over Radio Éireann and if one Party wants to make a thrust at another that is part of the political activities of that Party. It is wrong if any steps are taken by the director of broadcasting or by anyonein the Department to insist that the leader of any political Party must submit his script before he makes his appeal over Radio Éireann.

With regard to television, we do not hear very much from the Government about it. We do not hear whether they have any plans. A question was asked in the Dáil by me lately, inquiring if representations had been received from the Six-County Government and asking that a conference be held with a view to both Governments co-operating with regard to the erection of a TV station. The Minister replied that they had not, or were not. I know that I am not divulging a private conversation when I say that I have been speaking personally to a Minister of the present Six-County Government, who told me that from information he had—and I have an assurance from the Minister that I could use it in this House and that is why I am using it—there has been a move made by the Six-County Government asking for the co-operation of the Government of the Republic in making some plans and arrangements in connection with the erection of a television station. The Minister stated quite recently that a television station was too important to have shared between two Governments. There may be something in that, but I am sure that we have not reached the stage when, if we had a television station, we cannot have two programmes going from that station at the one time if it is necessary. An estimate was given that it would cost something like £90,000 for the erection and equipment of a television station, and if the Six-County Government were prepared to contribute generously to that, as we have co-operated with them in the Great Northern Railway and also in the Erne scheme, I think that is a grand spirit and we should co-operate fully with them.

In the Six-County Government you have as Ministers great and good Irishmen who love their country as much as and with greater love and fervour than some of the Irish Ministers we have sitting in this House. I want to pay that tribute to them. I want to pay tribute to the kindliness and courtesy and deep interest Mr.McCleery, when he was Minister, displayed in his visit here to Dublin and even when he visited the bogs also. That is a grand spirit. It is the right spirit, a spirit of close co-operation and stepping together and working in the same manner like a team that will be good for this country and the people on both sides of the Border.

I am very glad that the Great Northern Railway scheme and the Erne scheme have so successfully been concluded, and I would ask the Minister as far as possible to endeavour to get down to it with the Six-County Government and see what could be done about the erection of a television station. Suitable sites were being mentioned—one in County Monaghan and another some place on the Cavan-Fermanagh border. I hope and trust that if this correspondence is being exchanged between the head offices of his Department the Minister will intervene and as far as possible will encourage co-operation between the Six-County Government and the South of Ireland Government on the question of television. If anything can be done, as television, I understand, takes time to plan, I would like to know what we are waiting for. Television certainly is costly, but the Minister seems to think that if we have services in other parts of the world we are not to have those services here. We cannot expect that if it cost £90,000 to establish a television station we are going to have one for half that or even at a reduced rate by waiting. The question is this: are we going to have television in Ireland or are we not?

Another question is: can we afford it? The answer to that is that we cannot afford it, but we can afford it as much as we can afford any of our other social services. Some time ago, early this year, I think in February, a London finance corporation, headed by an Irish-American, was given permission by the Irish Government to explore and plan television and after six months the company was to submit a conclusive report of its findings to the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. The six months are now up and I would like to know what did itreport. We have not got any account at all from the Minister in the matter. We do not know what the report was. I would like to know if it is a fact that this London finance corporation, headed by this Irish-American, was given permission by the Government to hold such an inquiry.

If so, what were the terms of reference of this inquiry that was to be held to explore the possibilities of a television service for this country? Is it going to be left to foreigners and outsiders, I wonder, to step in and establish television here, or are the Government going to take any hand, act or part in it? I think that the time has come when the Government should do something about this matter. If the Minister does not think it worth his while to refer to it in this House, I hope he will write to me and let me know if they have got the report from the London finance corporation, headed by this Irish-American, that was given the permission of the Government six months ago. Have they yet got the report and, if so, what were the findings? Have the Government considered the report, and with what result? The man in charge of it was a Mr. Charles Sweeney, a high executive of the Federated Trust and Finance Corporation Limited. Several inquiries have been addressed to Mr. Sweeney about the position. Was any report on television submitted to the Irish Government? Mr. Sweeney has at all times refused to make any comment on the matter.

People may say that television is not of any great importance at all. In my opinion, television is the greatest achievement to date. It would be a very great pity if we were deprived of the service of television. It can serve this country from very many angles. I hope that some steps will be taken to encourage television in this country. We hear a lot of criticism from time to time of films that are unfit for children and films that deserve the blue pencil of the film censor. A lot of the difficulties that arise with regard to unsuitable films would be solved if we had television. Everybody is well aware of the wonderful influence of television.

I can refer to a statement by a Father Raymond Pickard, a director in Paris of the International Catholic Association for Radio and Television. He says that television is a most powerful aid for the work of the Church. He reports that television clubs have been organised in many parishes in France where one set is made to serve the people. Here is another very important quotation, which was made by the Very Rev. Paul Reynard, President of the St. Louis University. He says that television is the most powerful force available, if properly used, for elevating the intelligence and taste of the people. It would be unfortunate if we were backward in that respect. The Government may be wasting very valuable time by waiting. If we are to have television, let us make up our mind about it. So far as cost is concerned, we cannot afford any of the services that we have at the present. In my view the question of television should be tackled.

I want to pay a special tribute to the work of the National Council for the Blind of Ireland. I think that their work deserves the praise——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I do not think the Minister has any responsibility in that connection.

Mr. O. Flanagan

He has not any responsibility for the association, but I was going to suggest that a greater and closer co-operation should exist between such a worthy organisation as the National Council for the Blind of Ireland, in the matter of the provision of wireless sets for the blind, and——

Mr. Childers

I am not responsible for that.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister has no responsibility for that.

Mr. O. Flanagan

I want him to take responsibility. That is what I was about to suggest. I know that blind people do not have to pay a wireless licence. Is not that so? I think that sufferers from T.B. should likewise be facilitated. I have in mind the case of a man who was in a sanatorium in my constituency. He wrote to meand told me that there was a danger that his radio set would be confiscated because he could not pay his wireless licence. I made representations to the Minister about this man's case. I asked the Minister to consider this man's plea sympathetically. He had only his T.B. allowance and very special circumstances surrounded his case. The only company and pastime which this unfortunate man had was the radio that was placed convenient to his pillow. Everybody knows that sufferers from T.B. have to stay indoors and in bed not for days or weeks but probably for months and even years. It would be very wise and certainly it would be greatly appreciated if the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs would arrange, on the certificate of the county medical officer of health, to permit sufferers from T.B. to use their radio sets without having to purchase a wireless licence. I cannot see that any very serious difficulties would arise from the granting of that concession. Bear in mind that, in all the sanatoria throughout the country vast numbers of people are depending on the allowances which are paid in respect of T.B. patients. I ask that a concession be made by the Minister's Department, whereby sufferers from T.B. will be exempted from having to purchase a wireless licence.

Mr. Brennan

In the sanatoria?

Mr. O. Flanagan

Yes.

Mr. Brennan

There are wireless sets there already.

Mr. O. Flanagan

The Deputy is wrong. The institution pays the licence for the institution radio set but if a patient brings in his own radio or if he gets one from the local merchant on the weekly system and brings it into the sanatorium with him he must pay a wireless licence. I am sure I have the sympathy of the House on that.

Mr. Brennan

I was never in a sanatorium but might I point out that there is a loudspeaker in every room?

Mr. O. Flanagan

The Deputy is right there. However, there are sanatoriawhere you bring in your own radio and have it beside your bed. If some other wards in the institution are interested in some other programme, you can turn on your own radio. There might be as many as 15, 20 or even 40 radios in the institution.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

This might be more relevant on the Estimate for the Department of Social Welfare. The Deputy is dealing with T.B. patients.

Mr. O. Flanagan

There is a small little knob on the radio which is usually designed for lowering the volume so that it will not disturb a patient in the next bed.

Mr. MacCarthy

In the modern hospitals each patient has earphones.

Mr. O. Flanagan

I am quite well aware of earphones. I am dealing with the wireless licence which T.B. patients are obliged to pay. I have asked the Minister to waive that regulation so far as T.B. patients are concerned, on the recommendation of the county medical officer of health or of the sanatorium concerned.

I think that the Department of Posts and Telegraphs should set aside each year a sum from the amount estimated and voted for by this House and devote that sum of money towards the work of the National Council for the Blind of Ireland. I think the Department should contribute generously and give help and assistance towards the provision of radio sets for the blind. We all agree that, possibly, Almighty God could not send a greater affliction than blindness. I thing free radio sets should be allocated to very poor blind people living in rural areas. The only way of solving that problem would be to work on the same lines as the scheme of the National Council for the Blind of Ireland. I am not saying that they would take it—I am sure that if it were offered they would consider it—but I think that we would be doing a good day's work if a substantial sum were set aside to allocate radios to the deserving blind on the recommendation of the National Council for the Blind of Ireland.

I want to make a request to the Minister, a request that has already been made, in connection with the broadcast of the Rosary over Radio Éireann. Next year is a year which has been consecrated by the Pope to Our Blessed Lady and we in Ireland could show no greater honour and pay no greater tribute to Our Lady, who is the Queen of Ireland, than to have the Rosary broadcast over Radio Éireann. It can very easily be done by means of a record which could be broadcast either immediately after the news or before the news. If the Rosary were broadcast, it would certainly help to propagate and foster the good old Irish custom which thank God very strongly prevails in rural Ireland of the family Rosary. In addition to using our radio to further our national outlook and to foster our Irish culture, we can lend a hand, and a very good hand, to the activities of Catholic action and we should be proud of doing it.

I want to pay a tribute to Deputy Everett who was responsible for the Angelus being sounded from Radio Éireann and I hope and recommend that the Minister will take advice in this matter, because in this country, where the majority profess the Catholic Faith, it would be welcomed by all as a gesture during the Marian Year, if the Rosary were broadcast from Radio Éireann. I very strongly recommend it and it would be very much appreciated by all. I trust that the Minister will not alone give the matter his very sympathetic and favourable consideration, but will himself recommend it. I trust that he will also consider the point I made with regard to extending the radio programme with the least possible delay until 12 midnight, because the station closes down too early at present.

Mr. Dunne

It was not my intention to intervene in this debate and my intervention will be as brief as possible. It is prompted by having listened last night to a vitriolic outburst from Deputy Briscoe in relation to a statement made by the former Minister for Posts and Telegraphs. Deputy Everettadverted to some very important matters and in the course of his observations he indicated that he had no great liking for symphony music. Deputy Briscoe proceeded, with the approbation of the Minister, to endeavour to establish it as some kind of crime that such an opinion should be expressed and suggested, in fact, that anybody who did not set himself down to listen to symphony music was in the nature of a subnormal individual. There are many members of the House and of the Fianna Fáil Party who are probably as practised and as well versed in music as Deputy Briscoe, although, perhaps, not with such a degree of variations as Deputy Briscoe is able to display at times. I have met many people who are skilled musicians who could not stand the sound of a symphony concert. I myself have no strong opinions one way or the other. Like most ordinary people who were denied the benefits of a classical education, I like light music, and I think it can be said, as Deputy Everett said last night, that the bulk of our people prefer ballads any day or night to a superabundance of symphony concerts.

That was the view put forward last night by Deputy Everett. Was there anything wrong with it? According to Deputy Briscoe, it was something in the nature of a crime that such an expression of opinion should have been put forward. I make no apologies to anybody for saying that I personally would listen to as little symphony music as I possibly could, and, as I have said, most honest people, outside the class who may have been specially educated to appreciate symphony or chamber music, will say: "Give us a ballad or something light, so that we may enjoy it." That is what was said by Deputy Everett and that gave rise to what I have indicated, a vicious, vitriolic effort by Deputy Briscoe to read into that statement something which was not in it at all.

A more serious aspect of the situation was referred to last night by Deputy Everett, an aspect in which I am particularly interested and in which every member of the House who has any regard for his responsibilitiesmust take a keen interest. I refer to the question of employment under the auspices of the broadcasting service. I am told that we have a symphony orchestra consisting of 40 people, and that 20 of these are non-nationals. I I have nothing against non-nationals or foreigners, as such, but I do not think that, at a time when unemployment is rife in this country, and when our Irish musicians are being forced to go across to Britain to obtain employment, we should employ non-nationals. I am not alone in that opinion. It is an opinion shared, if not by Deputy Briscoe, who was at great pains to justify the Minister's action in employing these non-nationals, by at least some members of the Fianna Fáil Party.

I draw the attention of the House to a debate on 5th November of last year, when Deputy McCann, who has always taken a very keen interest in wireless broadcasting from the time it was initiated in this country, had some remarks to make. They make interesting reading, particularly in contradistinction to the remarks of Deputy Briscoe last evening. Here is what Deputy McCann had to say at column 957 of the Official Reports:—

"I do feel it my duty, following Deputy Cosgrave, to speak here as Chairman of the Municipal School of Music and to say that I disagree profoundly—in this I think I am expressing the views of the great majority of people associated with music in the city, and also, in my opinion, of the great majority of my own constituents—with the development in connection with symphony and light orchestra of Radio Éireann and to say that it is not in the best interests of this country.

I do not believe that we want an orchestra of international standard, if we have to bring in internationals to make it that. If the money that is paid out of taxation in this connection is for anything, it is to nurture Irish talent in whatever direction it is available. That has always been the tenor of my speeches in this House on Radio Éireann and kindred subjects. I, therefore, fail to see howthose who agreed with me in the past can disagree with me now.

The Minister has made many pertinent remarks during the past few weeks but I think that the most impertinent observation that has come from him during the last few days is in the current issue of a journal called Radio Review.‘Completely inadequate’ is the description by the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, Mr. Erskine Childers, ‘is the training of musicians to concert standard in this country.’ Now, it all depends on what the criterion of ‘concert standard’ is. If the criterion of concert standard is a standard on a par with the best to be had in other places in the world, well then, possibly, we do not come up to it in every aspect. I say this, and I say it here deliberately—I say it from my association with people whose services have been dispensed with in Radio Éireann during the last few weeks—that they are as competent as any who have come here to replace them. Yesterday I heard of two more dismissals during the last few weeks. There was one man who had been playing for nine years with the Radio Éireann Symphony Orchestra and he was replaced by a German musician. He is a man with a wife and family. I suppose he can go elsewhere to seek employment. However, whether these people are equal to, or better than, our own musicians, my contention is that what the Irish people want to hear is an Irish orchestra which can be gradually coached along until it reaches the stage of perfection which the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs so earnestly desires.”

That was not the speech of any member of the Labour Party. It was not from Deputy Everett, it was not from Deputy Briscoe. It was the reasoned view of a responsible member of the Fianna Fáil Party of long standing in this House, put forward here roughly a year ago. We, of the Labour Party, hold that view; that if improvement in the standard of music rendered by the Radio Éireann Symphony Orchestra can be got only by sacking our ownpeople and by importing these experts from foreign countries, then let us be satisfied with what we produce ourselves and with the standard we can reach ourselves. I do not think that, simply in order that a tune may be made to sound sweeter, what Deputy McCann referred to last year can be justified—that a married man with a family, an Irish national who must have spent a great many years learning his craft as a musician, should be thrown out and told to go where he liked, to get a job in England if he could, while a non-national was employed to replace him. If it were the situation that we had not in this country musicians qualified to take up positions in our orchestras, nobody would object to the employment of non-nationals. In this matter, as I have indicated, it is not my purpose to object on general principles to the employment of non-nationals, but in the circumstances as they exist to-day, the employment of 20 non-nationals in the Radio Éireann orchestra cannot be justified, no matter what attempt is made by the Minister on any aesthetic grounds or no matter what attempt is made by Deputy Briscoe, under the cover of a personal attack, to justify it.

As I said, I do not want to dwell too long on this matter because, in the first instance, I am not qualified to speak at any great length on wireless broadcasting. I have not very much opportunity to listen to the radio. Indeed, I often wondered, having looked up the debates on this particular matter in previous years, at the number of Deputies who seem to have such an immense knowledge of it. I often wondered how a lot of these Deputies found time themselves to listen to so much on the radio. When I do listen, on the few occasions that I find time, my reactions are the same as those of everybody else.

Reference has been made to the item called, "Take the Floor". I heard it only once. I am always struck by the peculiar situation that we find so far as the presentation of light entertainment in this country is concerned, whether it be on the stage, the radio or elsewhere. It seems to be the plan and the design of those who write sketches and plays for the radioand stage to "guy" the Irish people, to make them appear ridiculous. They always seem to develop a kind of accent that you would never hear in any part of the country—a hybrid kind of conglomeration of sound that you could not associate with any of our people. If, in listening to an entertainment, we could hear an accent that would enable us to say: "That fellow belongs to the West, the South, the North or to Leinster" we would be satisfied that we were getting nearer to reality, to something that was native or racy of the soil. But there seems to be some kind of conspiracy against that kind of thing in entertainment in this country. This applies to the vaunted programme which is presented every Sunday by the famous pundit, Din Joe, as much as it applies to any other programme to which I have listened from Radio Éireann.

Reference has been made to the broadcast of the play, The Playboy of the Western World.I know that in the city and in the country we have followers of the drama who regard this play as a masterpiece and that it might be said to have been one of the foundation stones on which the Abbey Theatre built its reputation. I must say that I saw it at least once and I could not understand what it was about or how it could have any relation, good, bad or indifferent to any aspect of Irish life. I bow, however, to the superior knowledge of those who are able to appreciate it. If there is a section who are able to appreciate what they call the lyric poetry of Synge let them enjoy it. I would not go so far as to say that the play reflects discredit on our people, because I think it has withstood the test of time to some extent but a great deal of the support which we see accorded to plays of this kind is, in my personal view, a lot of intellectual bluff and pomposity. If, however, people want to disport themselves in that way, let them; it is a harmless kind of recreation, anyway.

There have been, no doubt, some improvements in the broadcasting services. The introduction of the early morning news and the extension of hours have been of great benefit.In this drive to improve the services, I should like to know from the Minister, when he is replying, how many hours in a given period of broadcasting time are spent in the use of Irish. or in the effort to make Irish a spoken language in a more widespread fashion. There is a feeling among language workers that insufficient time is being devoted to the use of the native tongue and that is something which should be corrected.

It has crossed my mind at various times when listening to this debate and other debates that it would be a good thing if the Minister would consider at some time arranging a broadcast for, say, a week or so of the proceedings of this House. I think it would have a very beneficial effect if the proceedings were broadcast.

Mr. S. Flanagan

On which would it have the effect, the public or the proceedings?

Mr. Dunne

It might be a reciprocal benefit. I think a lot of the illusion which the public harbour with regard to their representatives would be dispelled on the one hand and that a good deal of the oppressive silence which has been lingering in the House for the best part of a score of years would be relieved on the other hand. The standard of the debate would certainly improve, I imagine. It could not do any harm and it would be an interesting experiment. I do not know whether that is done anywhere except in America.

I heard reference last night to the fact that Deputies are debarred from broadcasting on most subjects. That is completely irrational. In England, I think it is a common thing for members of Parliament who specialise in particular lines of art, literature and commerce and whose services are thought to be of value are permitted to broadcast in the ordinary way. I do not think that that regulation should be left there much longer.

My chief concern in speaking was to endeavour to dispel the false atmosphere which was created last night deliberately by Deputy Briscoe in relation to our stand on this question of the employment of non-nationals. Ithink I have made it clear that not only we but all reasonable persons— and I instanced Deputy McCann of the Fianna Fáil Party speaking 12 months ago on this subject—feel that it is not right while we have unemployed in this country that we should bring in foreigners and dismiss our people from their jobs.

Mr. Childers

Perhaps, I should say to begin with in connection with this debate that it has been very pleasant listening to the vast majority of the Deputies who spoke. As Deputy McQuillan said, there are as many views on broadcasting as there are Deputies in this House, and I think he put the general position very well in regard to the extent to which any Minister could have regard to any statement made by a Deputy, that it is more or less in the nature of an opinion. I particularly valued the contributions of Deputy Dockrell and Deputy O'Gorman, showing a real appreciation of the improvement that has taken place in Radio Éireann since the last Estimate came before the House. In fact, the number of Deputies who were wholly critical in their observations was practically negligible. I think Deputy Everett was one, but there were very few others.

So far as the employment of nationals and non-nationals by Radio Éireann is concerned, I do not think that the House need have any feeling of inquietude in regard to the general position. Since 1950 we have secured employment altogether in the whole of Radio Éireann services for 70 nationals and six non-nationals. In view of the fact that broadcasting has many diverse functions and constituents, and that a number of the people who work for broadcasting have international connections, I think that that proportion is an excellent one. I make no apologies for it. I should like to have heard from Deputies about the 70 nationals who secured employment in the last few years as a result of reorganisation and expansion of services and of the programme.

I think I can also say that a recordnumber of tributes have been paid to Radio Éireann in the course of the debate, and that the new director and the comhairle will be encouraged to make greater efforts to improve the programme. I will ask them to read the whole of this debate and to examine the various criticisms and observations made in the hope that some of the things which have been said here may help towards a still further improvement of the programme. Deputy O'Sullivan said something on the same lines as Deputy McQuillan. He said it was difficult for Deputies even to give a general view of what their own constituents thought because of the very great diversity of opinion in regard to broadcasting matters in general.

Deputy Corish in the course of his speech asked why there were no details of salaries in the Estimate. I gave the reasons for that in the first part of my Estimate speech when I said that there had been a complete change in the organisation of broadcasting, that far greater freedom is given by the Minister for Finance. We are not breaking any statutory regulations. All the information necessary for the Comptroller and Auditor-General will be available in the usual way. We simply carried out a simplification which would bring about the sort of flexibility that is as essential in broadcasting as it is in any other entertainment organisation such as a newspaper. The Public Accounts Committee can, if they wish, examine all the accounts in the usual way, and I think that that is a safeguard against any unwise action on the part of the director or anything in the nature of financial expenditure of which this House might not approve. Reference was also made to some of the fees paid by Radio Éireann. Fees in the entertainment world are high.

Brendán Mac Fheórais

Surely the Minister will agree that when an Estimate is being presented we ought to have some details with regard to the salaries paid.

Mr. Childers

I gave the fullest particulars in regard to this matter in the course of my Estimate speech, and when the Estimate was approved lastyear I made it quite clear that there would be a simplification with a view to giving Radio Éireann, as far as we can under statutory regulations, something half-way between the position of an independent statutory corporation, such as the B.B.C. or Radio Diffusion Belge, and being a complete and absolute branch of the Civil Service, having to obey all the regulations which apply to all the officers of the Civil Service. I said we had reached a half-way position. I also told the Deputy on this occasion that we had consulted the Public Accounts Committee and that they had accepted the position, knowing that there always can be a full examination of how the accounts are kept. We hope we will always have confidence in the director and the comhairle, so that there will never be any need for an elaborate presentation of such expenditure.

As I was saying, the fees in the entertainment world are high, and frequently bear no relation to salaries paid in other avocations. Sometimes there are very few persons capable of a particular type of broadcasting, and these people have to be paid high fees. The same applies to the world of acting, to the world of the cinema and, in some degree, to the world of publication.

So far as the fees paid by Radio Éireann to those who perform, shall I say, minor parts, the fees have increased by 33? to 100 per cent. since 1950.

I hope the criticism that we do not offer sufficiently high fees to individual broadcasters in this country will no longer be thrown against us. We have done our best to increase the fees. There certainly was a great need for improving them.

The comhairle meets fortnightly and takes a very deep, immediate and personal interest in the running of the station. It leaves all the details of the programme to the director, but they consider general policy. It consists of people from a very wide variety of walks of life and I have confidence in them. I should like to stress the fact that they meet fortnightly. They are in the nature of a board which has acomplete and absolute responsibility for the supervision of Radio Éireann, under my authority.

A number of Deputies referred to the question of interference by domestic and industrial apparatus as distinct from external interference. In connection with interference, the investigation staff has been doubled of recent months. They constantly go from one end of the country to the other in order to investigate interference. We have tried to arrange area campaigns, in which we advise the wireless dealers of a particular town that we propose visiting that town. We ask them to co-operate with us by carrying out such publicity as they deem advisable, asking the public to help in eliminating interference.

We ask the wireless dealers to help us because we find that 23 per cent. of all the interference which we investigate is the result of an imperfection in the set or in the aerial itself, so that wireless dealers have a good commercial interest in assisting to eliminate interference. I should like to ask the co-operation of everybody in that regard.

One Deputy—Deputy O'Donnell— seemed to imply in what he said that there might be some legal enforcement against interference. That is a frightfully complicated matter. It is extremely difficult to prove in court the existence of interference. The British Government passed an Act—I think it was in 1949—in connection with which there are some 40 pages of complicated regulations. So far as I know that Act is still not being enforced very rigidly—at least we have heard very little about it because we know it is extremely difficult to put it into operation.

One of the things that would be required would be the right to search premises with all the unpleasantness that would involve. We would prefer to have voluntary co-operation in the matter of eliminating interference. Suppressors for most classes of apparatus are carried by our inspectors. When the inspectors find some domestic apparatus they can generally offer to fit this suppressor immediately at a cost of from 10/- to £1 for mostclasses of small apparatus. We also have very excellent co-operation with the E.S.B. who are ready immediately at any time to suppress interference arising from transformers or other apparatus which they use.

In regard to interference from stations abroad, in 1948 a conference was held in Copenhagen for the allocation of wavelengths on the medium and long wavebands arising from changes that had taken place during the war. The conference never succeeded in making a satisfactory allocation. Stations interfere with each other sometimes because they are too close and sometimes because they have the same wavelength as our own but exceed the power allotted to them under international conventions. Seven countries were unable to subscribe to that convention because of the unfortunate results in regard to their own particular wavelengths demands.

I should mention in that connection that the new Cork transmitter should be fairly effective in the region of Cork and should, I think, result in an improvement in transmission. I hope we will hear fewer complaints from Cork Deputies who, as usual, spoke vociferously on this Estimate and made it quite clear that Cork should play a very important part in the Irish broadcasting world.

The air is crowded. There is an increased number of stations. There is an international organisation in Brussels which tries to prevent interference. We make representations when we think it wise to that organisation. We also make representations to the countries direct. One and a half years ago we suggested to an Italian station that they were emitting too strong a signal and they agreed to reduce it. That was a station with the same wavelength as ours but with a strength which should not ordinarily interfere with reception here.

It is extremely difficult to secure unanimity in most of these matters. The ideal thing would be to do what other countries devastated during the war are now doing and that is to buildtheir stations anew such as in Western Germany and have high frequency transmitters with any amount of room on the air. The reception is very nearly perfect being almost entirely free from static under ordinary conditions. The difficulty arising from this decision would be that it would be necessary to have a most modern transmitter installed and everyone in this country would have to spend approximately £10 to adapt their sets.

I think I, as Minister, would be very unpopular if I asked nearly 400,000 wireless licensees to indulge in that expenditure even though, as a result, they got absolutely perfect reception. Some day some Minister will have to take that responsibility. I feel that some day high frequency modulation transmission will be ideal for the country and sooner or later the steps will have to be taken. I might add that the B.B.C. have not yet taken that step although their resources are infinitely greater than ours because of the number of households which pay licence fees to them. They have not dared to take such a step.

A number of Deputies spoke about the question of making use of Radio Éireann in the anti-Partition campaign. Deputy O'Donnell suggested that both sides of the controversy should be allowed to debate. That would seem to me to create a number of difficulties. He also suggested that there ought to be daily or weekly propaganda. As everybody knows, we report all news concerning the Partition problem as forcefully as we can. We make no distinction in regard to the news which comes to us from any part of Ireland.

Both this Government and the last had this matter under consideration. I think the answer is that there is no point in making use of Radio Éireann if, as a result, we gain nothing from what might be inevitably a slanging match between the two parties concerned. We are naturally outclassed in the number and the power of our radio stations. There would be no point in carrying on propaganda if the only result was a greater amount of propaganda from the opposite point ofview. It is purely a matter of tactics and I have to rely on those who can give me advice on that matter.

There has been more or less unanimity in regard to that whole problem for a considerable number of years. Just as we are, in fact, agreed on the Partition question, it would appear that we are also agreed that Radio Éireann should not be used for the purpose of transmitting deliberate propaganda. It would not be advantageous to us.

There were some questions asked about the short-wave station. The position there is that we were granted an allocation at the last conference which took place in Palermo. We were crowded out on the air. We were in a very unsatisfactory position on the wave band although our delegates, of course, did their best. Reception in the United States of America on the short-wave station at the present time would be negligible. Therefore, there would be no advantage in undertaking the very considerable cost in using this station for either propaganda purposes or letting the world know of our cultural conditions and heritage.

Deputy Everett and Deputy Dunne had a good deal to say about the question of employing non-nationals in the orchestras. I think that the statement I made in the course of my Estimate speech fully set out the position. The previous Minister himself made no effort to improve the training of musicians here. I do not think that musicians gained anything of advantage from him during their term of office and some of the non-nationals commenced their employment during his term of office.

Mr. Everett

On a point of explanation. The Minister will observe from the files that I refused to appoint one non-national during my term of office in virtue of the promise which I gave in the House that no further appointments of the kind would be made. The Minister should look up the files on that. It is a point of correction.

Mr. Childers

I have my own records on that subject. The orchestra itself costs £42,000, and not £84,000 per year. This amounts to about 10 per cent. of the cost of the whole radio broadcastingorganisation. Might I add in that connection that what is known as the very serious heavy music occupies about 10 per cent. of the time, and of that 10 per cent. about half does not consist of really heavy music, but of popular classical music? I want to mention that no one should exaggerate how much time is taken up by the orchestra playing, or how much time is involved in the transmission of symphony music. Naturally, I am aware that it is possible to be a perfectly normal human being and not to like symphony music. People have varying tastes in this and other countries, and I do not need to be lectured on that subject by Deputy Dunne.

My object, as I have said, is to create a first-class orchestra. I hope that in ten years' time in this, as in most other countries, the orchestra will consist of 100 musicians at least, and I hope that these 100 musicians will be better paid. It is perfectly certain that if we now have a first-class orchestra, if we have foreign musicians here who can provide the only kind of instruction available in this country up to concert standard, if we have a high standard, then we can encourage young people to take up the playing of instruments for which there is a demand in the orchestra, a demand we are unable to fill in connection with the vacancies that have been available recently.

A number of other small countries have had to do exactly the same thing. The Swedish and Swiss orchestras have a very considerable percentage of non-nationals. In the case of the B.B.C. orchestra even in Great Britain, where they have a tremendous number of orchestras, and where they are able to insist that all the players are, actually, nationals, one will find that the names of a very high proportion of the persons in those orchestras indicate that many musicians were only very recently naturalised.

As I have already indicated, we have established an annual audition at which musicians, for the first time, are no longer told: "You are fit to play in Radio Éireann or you are not fit to play." They are now divided into threegroups. We appoint some of them, we encourage others to go on with their training, and we are appointing a student orchestra in which they can play, and then there is a third group composed of those who we think are unlikely ever to reach the standard of a symphony orchestra and to whom we say we can offer no special advice because they have not reached the half-way point in their teaching.

It is all very well to be told that it is not in the interests of this country that non-nationals should be appointed. I would remind Deputies that a large percentage of the pilots employed by Aer Lingus are non-nationals because there were no others of sufficient standard available to fly the Aer Lingus planes. Aer Lingus is gradually training an increasing number of Irish pilots, but they are in exactly the same position as we are in regard to that matter. One could even make the comparison that a symphony orchestra of the standard, say, of the Danish Radio Orchestra must have a standard that will compare pretty well with the standard of the pilot who flies an aeroplane, in so far as quality is concerned.

I mentioned a number of other factors. I mentioned that we had appointed an Irish assistant conductor, one of whose particular jobs is to seek musical talent in this country and to co-ordinate with all institutions which are teaching musicians. One would imagine, listening to Deputy Everett, that he did not hear me say that we had appointed six young violinists, whose training has not been completed, on a part-time basis; that we had appointed one viola player and a clarinet player in connection with the recent annual audition, and that we hope to encourage our people to acquire the art of musicianship.

No one, of course, in this debate who spoke on this matter made any reference to what I had said in my statement in regard to the prizes offered at Dublin Feiseanna. I said that, excluding the piano and violin, in connection with all other instruments in the orchestra in the senior, intermediateand open classes, there were, in relation to two Dublin feiseanna, 30 prizes offered and only 12 were awarded. In connection with one feis, an adjudicator, who is Irish in origin, and who has every sympathy with this country, said it was quite obvious that talent in respect of a number of instruments of the standard required in a symphony orchestra was gravely lacking and that a number of the persons taking part in the feis, while showing great promise, would require, in nearly every single case, three or four years further training before they could join in a symphony orchestra, not of the standard of the New York symphony orchestra, but shall we say of a regional orchestra of the B.B.C.

He was an examiner at one of the feiseanna, and is a person who has a very deep connection with the life of this country. He is a person who is very much admired by the people who take part in these feiseanna. I rely on his view. Another thing we have done is to secure an increased grant of £1,000 for the Royal Irish Academy of Music, both for scholarships for musicians and for general purposes in connection with the training of musicians to concert standard. We have provided them with some six new instructors. All that I hope will help to develop a great musical tradition here.

I also stated, although it seems to have been forgotten in this debate, that no permanent players whose standard remains as it is would be dismissed from the orchestra. We now have an orchestra which can grow from strength to strength. The difficulties to be faced at an earlier period, in so far as that matter is concerned, are over. Now, as I have said, no permanent player whose standard remains unaltered need have any fears as a result of the agitation which we have heard in this debate from not more than two Deputies in the whole House. If the popularity of the orchestra increases and if there is a further development in music then of course Radio Éireann will be unable to take the full responsibility for symphony music in this country. We are primarily a broadcasting organisation,but there are other organisations which may have to take an interest in the improvement of orchestras.

In Great Britain, for example, the Arts Council makes contributions and local municipal corporations make contributions to the maintenance of the great orchestras there, and I think the Hallé Orchestra in particular is now going to receive subventions from three different cities whilst receiving its usual subvention from the British Arts Council. As I have said, that is a faroff development. I cannot foresee how the development of the orchestra will proceed, but I should mention that matter because it is obvious that Radio Éireann may not always be able to be responsible for conducting the affairs of what is becoming the national orchestra of Ireland.

I do not think I need say any more on that subject. The necessary reorganisation of the orchestra has been effected, and I have given an undertaking that Radio Éireann will employ every single musician who is likely to come forward in the next few years and who is available to us. I only wish that there were more musicians at this moment studying about six wind instruments and at least two string instruments and who are likely to reach the standard not, as I have said, of a great international orchestra supported by the subventions of millionaires but an orchestra of which we could be reasonably proud. I hope everything I have said will encourage the development of a musical tradition in this country.

Brendán Mac Fheórais

Could the Minister give an opinion as to how long it will take to renationalise the orchestra?

Mr. Childers

I could not say. The Suisse Ronarde Orchestra is still 59 per cent. non-national, and if the Deputy will get the list of the players in the B.B.C. Orchestra he will see from the very endings of their names that a huge proportion of them are naturalised citizens.

Deputy McQuillan referred to the balance of the news and suggested thaton occasions it might appear to accept the slant of the news from the B.B.C. So far as I know, the very excellent men who run the news service at Radio Éireann have independent minds. I would like to deny that we favour aggressors of any kind from any source in our news commentary. We get the news from more than one agency and the best possible is done to balance the presentation of the news.

References have been made to the participation of Deputies in debates, and I am glad that Deputies on all sides of the House seem to approve of the idea that in connection with our debates on matters of interest in Ireland Deputies and Senators should not be excluded. That matter is under active consideration and I hope we can go on towards being in the same position of every western democracy where Deputies and Senators take part in debates, where there are stated broadcasts by all the Parties in between elections, and where there are stated broadcasts during general elections. It is a matter which must be carefully considered. We must ensure that we have unanimity between all the Parties in regard to the whole problem.

One Deputy suggested we should broadcast direct the proceedings of Dáil Éireann. That is a matter that would require very careful consideration. There are many persons interested in what I might call the philosophy of democracy who would say it would destroy the independence of this House, that it would tend to turn Deputies into pure delegates for their constituents; that it would tend to direct their attention to their position as delegates, which they are to some degree, and not to make them feel themselves as being persons elected for a term of office and having considerable independence of view themselves. It is a matter about which we could have a very long discussion, but if we can perhaps extend the field of the reporting of debates in the Dáil as I have indicated, that is as far as we need go.

I do not myself believe that the Parties as a whole in this House wouldwish us to adopt the Australian system, that is, in our present stage of development. If we had a stand-up debate on that subject I think all sides of the House would be very much divided as to whether from the standpoint purely of the philosophy of democracy it would be a good thing to have the proceedings of the Dáil broadcast directly to the nation. I am not sure whether as a result of any change in that direction speeches would be better or whether in fact there would be a close and independent examination of all the issues which we face. I might add that I have not made my mind up nor have the Government, and I think we had better leave the question for the present.

Deputy Giles and Deputy Cogan spoke about the necessity of having broadcasts on matters connected with Irish history. There has been a considerable development in regard to that matter. We have had portraits of 1916 leaders; we have had broadcasts on Robert Emmet, on Thomas Davis, on Roger Casement—I am speaking of recent date; we had quite a number of broadcasts in connection with Thomas Moore and his centenary, and we have had quite a number of commentaries on the war for independence and the battles of the Old I.R.A. We are having at the present time the history of Ireland in the form of music with a commentary by a very wellknown Irishman. We are having a much greater variety of Irish music. I think we are doing all we can to contribute to the Irish Ireland part of the programme, and I hope it will grow and improve in quality in the future.

There has been a great deal of discussion on the plays broadcasts by Radio Éireann and the matter is made very easy for me by the fact that Deputies have obviously differed on this point. There have been Deputies who said they saw nothing objectionable in the plays broadcast from Radio Éireann. There were others who have raised objections and inevitably, of course, there will always be a diversity of opinion in regard to that matter. We ourselves have received no seriouscomplaints in Radio Éireann. Hundreds of plays of very varied types are broadcast, varied in their country of origin, in their dramatic content and varied in regard to their scene and theme. It would be true to say that 90 per cent. of the plays broadcast from Radio Éireann are frequently played by purely rural dramatic companies, apart from those plays which can be seen at the Abbey Theatre.

I would not believe for a moment that the Abbey Theatre plays only to what some Deputies describe as a Dublin sophisticated audience. I believe a great number of people come to the Abbey who very recently arrived from the country and I would not say that a play that would be suitable for the Abbey Theatre might not be suitable for broadcasting because the audience was more sophisticated than a rural audience. I say that statement is very much open to question.

Some Deputies spoke about what they call "stage Irish". I have heard entertainment all over the country under every conceivable auspices and I have heard people laughing uproariously in one part of the country at a comedy which undoubtedly would be described as "stage Irish" in another part of the country. I suppose we have had a good example of that in this House in regard to a certain comedian who was mentioned by Deputies. One Deputy said that he was racy of the soil from which he sprang and another said that he provided a perfect example of very bad stage Irish. My own belief from having observed a great deal of entertainment of that type is that it is very hard to know what exactly stage Irish is. There is a certain kind of comedy that you come across in the London Coliseum, for example, which could definitely be labelled as pseudo-Irish. But when it comes to what you hear at a benefit concert in a hall in some remote rural parish or what you hear at big functions in the cities and towns of this country or what you see at the Abbey Theatre or presented by rural dramatic companies, I think it would be very hard for anybody to make any generalisation in regard to it.

As everyone knows, the history ofthe Irish drama has been, roughly, in two phases. There was the intensely romantic and idealistic period from 1900 to 1918. If you pick up some three dozen of the leaflets, pamphlets and books circulating in the country in 1916, or even before, up to 1918, you will see that the whole of the literary movement played a vital part in the independence movement, directly or indirectly. The drama tended to reflect the times in that the players were cast in a heroic mould. Since 1922 there has been the almost inevitable reaction that takes place after a nation secures independence, particularly if there happens to be the tragedy of a civil war. There has been since then a mordant cynical school of dramatic thought. There have been writers who by their origin are deeply imbued with the national tradition, who have written cynical mordant plays which have been played throughout the country by rural dramatic societies, as well as by the Abbey Theatre, and which would appear to be very much enjoyed by Irish people of all sections and all types. This is simply a literary phase through which we are passing. We cannot hide the tragedy of existence in connection with plays we present through Radio Éireann. Drama must relate in some way to "holding a mirror up to nature."

Other countries, I might add, expose themselves through their drama. Other countries present to the world at large plays which are cynical in themselves. We have only to consider the literature of many countries in order to see the truth of that. For example, a writer who is considered to be one of the greatest Catholic novelists of any age, Mauriac, wrote a book, about a type of French society, which is of the most deeply cynical and tragic kind.

Yet in France he is honoured as a writer by people of all classes and creeds. I could not possibly accept the suggestion that The Playboy of the Western Worldshould not be played from Radio Éireann. There are plays which are traditional to our country. They may seem cynical to us, they may seem cynical to certain elements of the population. Nevertheless I have seen The Playboy of the Western Worldplayed by a dramatic company from a very small little town in Sligo; I have seen it played to a purely rural audience in another part of Ireland and I have seen the most vociferous applause from people of every kind for the presentation of that play.

Captain Cowan

It was a cultured audience.

Mr. Childers

They were people of all kinds. I hope that the director of Radio Éireann and those in charge of drama will make quite sure that nothing of a kind which could be regarded as offensive to the ordinary man or woman will come from Radio Éireann; but what one would class as offensive is obviously a difficult matter, as there is a difference of opinion even amongst Deputies here on that question.

Several Deputies referred to the possibility of school broadcasts. That is a matter about which I could not say very much this evening. Once it became a purely educational function it would require a separate organisation, as in other countries. You could hardly ask the present organisation of Radio Éireann to conduct regular education under the circumstances prevailing in regard to education as a whole to-day. I think Deputies realise the difficulties we would face in that regard. We hope to have some popular programmes for children which would help them in their studies and which would be ancillary to their studies. Anything in the nature of a school broadcast programme would require a separate organisation for its creation and it is a matter of high policy which I could not discuss this evening.

I do not think I need say very much to the Cork Deputies. They have expressed their views very effectively. The Cork studios are being constructed and will be completed in about 18 months. The Cork transmitter, as I already indicated, is being changed and the transmission should be more perfect. I think the Cork men have a good many programmes originatingfrom the Cork people and that we are doing our best in regard to that matter. I should say to Deputy Keyes that we do not expect the Cork station to be heard properly in Limerick and I think he was under some misapprehension in regard to that matter. Limerick people should be able to hear the Athlone programme. The Cork transmitter, even when it was new, was never supposed to broadcast to Limerick.

Deputy Flanagan made, as usual, a number of scandalous allegations. I do not think I need reply to them here, as Radio Éireann is a properly run and highly respectable organisation. Our contracts are kept with artistes and that is all I need say in regard to one matter to which he referred. There is nothing peculiar in regard to the fees charged to those who undertake sponsored programmes. Any reductions made are made on an administrative basis in relation to the constitution of the company concerned and there is no kind of discrimination or preference. I notice that Deputy Flanagan suggested there should be far more sponsored programmes. If we had far more of them, we would be imitating more and more the Luxembourg programme. I do not know whether Deputy Flanagan wants that, but that is what is clearly implied by what he said.

Deputy McQuillan and others referred to television and said we should not wait for ever, as there would always be changes in television apparatus. When I spoke of the changes that were taking place, I was referring to changes in the next three years of an important kind in regard to the possibilities for the exchange of programmes and the development of colour television. I agree that, whatever decision the Government makes, it cannot postpone a decision on the ground that the apparatus would likely be absolete in ten years' time. It will have to be a decision on the basis as to whether we ought to have television, whether we can afford it and what should be the organisationto conduct it. As far as I know, the Government would have no intention of sharing television stations with any other organisation or body.

I think that in our present state, television will have to be entirely under the supervision of the Government. The principal difficulty is the great cost of a good programme. There are only 650,000 households and they can provide only a certain income for television. The difficulty we have both in establishing a second programme on the radio and in establishing television is that we are a country of a very modest population.

I will ask the Minister for Social Welfare to consider any representations made by Deputies in regard to the provision of wireless for those afficted with any particular malady. It is not the affair of my Department, but I think the Minister for Social Welfare has shown himself very willing to do all he can for the afficted and the ill and it is a matter for him to decide whether he would wish to make the concession suggested by one Deputy in regard to them.

A number of Deputies suggested that there should be a ceremony in connection with the Rosary in the evening from Radio Éireann. I have to take the advice of the director in that matter and the director in his turn, I am quite sure, would take the advice of the ecclesiastical authorities. With regard to all religious matters, we have had a very happy experience since the founding of Radio Éireann.

Ever since the founding of Radio Éireann we have moved very happily in complete co-operation with all the ecclesiastical authorities. Certainly, in the last two years, so far as I am aware, there has been no conflict of opinion of any kind, and I am quite certain that if there was to be any move of this kind there would be the same co-operation and the same happy relations that have always existed in the past.

One Deputy asked what proportion of the programme is in the Irish language. Apart from songs, about one-fifth of the programme is in Irish and we are always trying to improve theprogramme in that respect. Recently our commentaries in Irish before matches and sporting events of various kinds have received very favourable attention. We are trying to improve the programme in the native tongue to the greatest extent possible. I do not think there is any other institution which gives even one-fifth of its time to transmitting messages, notices or announcements of various kinds in the Irish language, and I think Radio Éireann is doing the best it can in that matter.

In conclusion, I want to thank the Deputies for their very kindly comments on the development of Radio Éireann. The comments have been noted. The criticisms will be examined. The suggestions will be scrutinised, and I hope that the next time the Estimate is presented to this House Deputies will be able to record the same degree of improvement as they say has taken place in the last year.

Question—"That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration"— put and declared lost.

Vote put and agreed to.