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Gnáthamharc

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 9 Dec 1953

Vol. 143 No. 10

Committee on Finance. - Vote 3—Department of the Taoiseach (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion :-
That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration.—(Deputies Costello, Norton and Mac Fheórais.)

Having failed to secure from the Taoiseach an apologia dealing with the result of his Government's policy up to date, so far as it has been in operation up to date, and also having failed to secure from him not merely an exposition but even an indication of whether or not there is going to be a change in that policy for the future and, if so, the nature of that change and when it is expected to be put into operation, we in the Opposition can do nothing but avail ourselves of the occasion of this debate to review past Government policy and its evil consequences, and to endeavour to assess from the evidence available to us at the moment whether or not there is any change of heart in the Government, whether they intend to change their policy or whether what they intend to do merely amounts to giving in to political expediency what they failed to concede to the facts, to reason and to argument.

During the course of the past six months and perhaps for a longer period, we have been discussing ondepartmental Estimates various details of Government policy. Government policy in action and its results have been examined, probed and exposed, and, accordingly, it will not be necessary for me to go in detail into every aspect of Government policy, or to consider in detail all the evil consequences which have flown directly and inevitably from the operation of that policy. I, therefore, propose to give only a short summary, at the outset of the remarks and comments I have to make, of the general results of that policy, and, in considering these results, it must be remembered that the policy of the Government has been in operation during a period when the war clouds have receded a fair amount, during a time when the dislocation of international trade and of the economy of world commerce has been to some extent eased and when import prices have been steadily falling over a period of nearly two years. It cannot be said or alleged, therefore, that the consequences which have flown from Government policy are in any way due to unforeseen circumstances or world conditions.

These consequences which have wrought such havoc in our economy and brought such unnecessary trials and sufferings to practically every section of our people were the inevitable consequences and the foreseeable result of putting that policy into operation. When that policy was first expounded here, particularly by the Minister for Finance, we on this side pointed out to him the economic facts and warned him and his colleagues in the Government of what would inevitably be the consequence of putting that policy into operation and, therefore, whatever those consequences may be, and evil as they are, full responsibility must be taken for them by the Government.

Let me give a short summary before I comment on Government policy. As a result of that policy, we have in this country the privilege of having the worst percentage increase in unemployment since 1951 and the greatest increase in the cost of living since that time of any western European country, with the possible exception of, I think,Greece. Again, as a result of Government policy, we have the consequence that in no year since the establishment of this State and perhaps in no year for many years before the establishment of the State has so large a percentage of agricultural workers left the land as left it in the year 1952-53. The purchasing power and standard of living of practically every section of the community has been seriously reduced. All forms of taxation have been heavily increased and bear hardly on the community, and have brought, in their train, unemployment, bad business and general suffering and austerity. Local taxation is mounting and will continue to mount and it bears very hardly on all sections of ratepayers. There has been a serious recession in trade and industry. The costs of agricultural production have been so seriously increased by taxation, and by the results of heavy and unnecessary taxation, and the operation of general Government policy, that our export trade is seriously jeopardised and on the prosperity of our agricultural industry depends entirely the prosperity of the country and the economic stability of the community. Notwithstanding what the Taoiseach and some of his colleagues have repeatedly said and notwithstanding what the Taoiseach, by way of interruption, said the other night when the debate was opened, there has been a restriction of credit to the business community.

He knows it well.

I will have occasion in the course of the remarks I will have to make later on to comment upon the effect of that restriction of credit. It has had the effect of preventing business not merely from expanding, from making necessary expansion, but from carrying on at all, and there has been, in the result, a grave contribution to unemployment and distress.

That is only a general picture, the merest outline of the results of Government policy. Nothing I have stated there can be effectively controverted. I make no statement here that the humblest member of thecommunity does not know in his own experience. It does not require from me to quote statistics. It does not require from me any advocacy to put that case because everybody knows it. That is the strong case which we put in this debate. It is the experience of every section of the community, the workers, those people who are dependent on old age and other pensions, but particularly the middle classes, those people who depend for their existence upon the salary cheque that comes monthly or weekly to them.

All those sections of the community have suffered severely as a result of Government policy and the tragic part of it all is that it was entirely unnecessary. There is no necessity whatever for the policy which was adopted and which has brought in its train such austerity, suffering and avoidable misery. It was wholly unnecessary but it was all deliberately brought about by the Government.

Those are two facts which, I think, are now realised by all impartial people. The Taoiseach, when he was speaking at the Fianna Fáil Ard-Fheis some few weeks ago, is reported in his own newspaper, the Irish Press,on the 14th October, 1953—I beg the Chair's pardon, he is not reported in his own newspaper of 14th October, 1953, but, strangely enough, he is reported in the ally of the Government, theIrish Times,of the same date as having stated: “To talk of austerity as the Opposition did was sheer nonsense.”

Hear, hear!

He is about the only man in Ireland who could say "hear, hear" to that.

I am sure it will be of the greatest comfort to the workers, the middle classes and even to the commercial community to know that, although this Government set itself out deliberately to reduce the purchasing power of money coming into their pockets and to prevent them from spending that money as they liked, the Taoiseach now says that to talk about austerity is sheer nonsense. These people found that the food subsidieshad gone and wages had not, as they know to their cost, overtaken the cost of living, but they will be greatly comforted, having gone through a period of unexampled austerity in the past two and a half years, to know that to describe the conditions under which they suffered during that period, which were the direct and intended consequence of Government policy, as austerity, is sheer nonsense.

Those results were brought about as I indicated at the outset of what I said in a period when the threat of war was at least receding, when international trade was recovering, when the dislocation of world economics caused by the Korean war was improving and when import prices were going down for two years. All that austerity was brought about deliberately by the Government and by Government policy. It is no wonder that the Government finds itself forced back to that policy which appears to have been ever a fundamental plank in Fianna Fáil Government policy, the policy of relief schemes which we set ourselves out from the very earliest times as a Government in the inter-Party days to put an end to.

We set ourselves out to put an end to the conditions which gave rise to the necessity for relief schemes and formulated a policy which abrogated that necessity and which gave the results which were subsequently described by the present Government as false prosperity. In 1951, and particularly in the Budget of 1952, the Government, especially the Minister for Finance, made a wrong diagnosis of the country's economic health. In their efforts to cure non-existing economic illnesses, they injected into what was a fundamentally healthy economy harmful germs which have produced the economic diseases from which the country has since suffered and is now suffering.

At that time we pointed out what was going to be the result of their policy. This Government cannot say that the results were unforeseen or unforeseeable. The Minister for Finance, when he introduced his famous Budget of 1952, stated the philosophy uponwhich that Budget was founded. It is the basis of all the hardships that were inflicted as a result of the financial policy enshrined in that Budget. At an early stage of his diagnosis of the country's economic ills, in the Dáil Debates, columns 1137 and 1138, of the 2nd April, 1952, the Minister for Finance laid down these fundamental propositions:-

"In agriculture and industry earnings have advanced since 1948 by more than the cost of living."

He then goes on to say:—

"The Government have given careful thought to this problem over recent months. They are satisfied that, as incomes generally have already advanced more than the cost of living, and as essential foodstuffs are no longer scarce, there is now no economic or social justification for a policy of subsidising food for everybody."

There is the fundamental basis of Government policy, that incomes at that time both in agriculture and industry had advanced by more than the cost of living. The Government were satisfied with that.

Following upon that—it was the policy of the Government at that time, and still is, so far as we know, to prevent what they call increased consumption—they proceeded to do what in economic jargon is called mopping up the excess spending power in the hands of the community by putting upon the community burdensome taxation. That prevented the people from saving and doing what they liked with their savings. They took from them what they called the excess of income over the cost of living and put it into the Exchequer to do with it as the Government wished and not what the people wished. As a result, the standard of the people was lowered and the cost of living was increased. Business receded, and people suffered that austerity and hardship about which it is sheer nonsense to talk according to the Taoiseach.

It is interesting to note and equally interesting to speculate—when the Taoiseach at the Ard-Fheis uses almostprecisely similar phrases about the incomes of the people now having advanced in keeping with the cost of living—what that portends for future Government policy. His colleague, the Minister for Finance, on 2nd April, 1952, announced that the Government were satisfied that incomes generally had advanced more than the cost of living. The Taoiseach on 14th October, 1953, as reported this time in his own newspaper, the Irish Press, said:—

"Industrial wage earnings and agricultural wages have increased proportionately more than the cost of living."

Is there not a familiar echo about that phrase? In 1952, the basis of the unjust Budget and the unnecessary taxation imposed by that unjust Budget of 1952, was the proposition that incomes generally had then advanced more than the cost of living.

We know what has happened in the last two and a half years and the Taoiseach, as head of the Government, now announces that, whatever has happened, incomes, both industrial and agricultural, have again advanced more than the cost of living. We know what the result of stating that proposition and founding a policy on that proposition was in 1952. What does it portend for the future? We are now back again in position A as regards the relationship between incomes generally and the cost of living.

It will also be recalled that at that time Government policy was founded on the proposition stated in this famous, or I should say infamous, White Paper described as the White Paper on Trend of External Trade and Payments, 1951, and presented to the House in October, 1951. It was stated there—and it was the foundation of another proposition in the policy initiated by the Budget of 1952— that there were no indications of a fall in import prices. At that very time, in October, 1951, clear indications were available and forthcoming and were pointed out by us to the Government at the time that import prices were even then falling.

Not content with that the Minister for Finance also announced the followingas part of the basis for his budgetary policy justifying what he called his concern with balancing our international accounts. Justifying the policy of restrictionism, the policy of preventing imports coming into the country and reducing the spending power of the community, he said at column 1123, Volume 130, of the Official Debates of 2nd April, 1952:—

"While we may expect some increase in export prices the immediate outlook in agriculture would not justify us in counting upon any material increase in the quantity exported."

How wrong he was in every single piece of philosophy on which he based that Budget? How wrong he was in relation to the available ascertained facts, to the facts that were told to him from this side of the House again and again. Incomes had not advanced beyond the cost of living at that time to the extent the Minister had declared. Import prices were coming down in September, 1951, before this White Paper was presented to the Houses of the Oireachtas. They have since continued to fall over the last two years.

What about agricultural production? We told the Government at the time that their facts were wrong, that they were dealing with fallacies and fancies and that they were more concerned with making an attack upon their predecessors' financial and economic policy than they were in the economic facts then staring them in the face and told to them by us. They proceeded on the basis that incomes were too high and, therefore, the excess income might be mopped up by means of taxation. That was incorrect. They proceeded on the basis that import prices showed no material signs of a fall. But their greatest error, their unforgivable mistake was that statement of the Minister for Finance that:—

"While we may expect some increase in export prices the immediate outlook in agriculture would not justify us in counting upon any material increase in the quantity exported."

The Taoiseach and his colleagues now boast at every dinner they attend of the healthy state of our balance of international payments. We told them then what was going to happen, that import prices were coming down and that export prices, as a result of the agricultural policy of the inter-Party Government, were going to soar and that it would be as a result of that policy that the balance of international payments would be achieved. We said that and they neglected to take our advice, that it was a wrong policy, when as a result there would be grave unemployment and business recession, to allow our sterling assets to accumulate. I will deal with these matters later on in the course of further observations I wish to make. I am now dealing with Government policy. They were so set upon attacking the policy of their predecessors—and it does not matter whether it was done deliberately or through incompetence—that they diagnosed non-existing economic sickness in the country's economic health, the consequence of which we all have felt ever since.

The Taoiseach himself was eloquent telling the people throughout the country that the nation as a whole and the community in general were living beyond their means, that they had been living for three years in a false prosperity and it was time it was ended. Whether it was deliberate in order to denigrate the achievements of their predecessors or through incompetence I care not. They embarked upon a policy which was wholly unsound and which has caused tremendous evils which will take very many years of sound economic and financial policy to eradicate.

What was the real position that was described at that time by the Government and the Minister? So great is the effect of false and lying propaganda that many people were persuaded of the truth of the statement that the nation was living beyond its means and had been living for three years in a false prosperity. When we left office in June, 1951, there were never, since the commencement of this State, fewer unemployed than in that year 1951.In every month of our period as a Government we put an additional 1,000 people in industrial jobs. Our exports were doubled. Our industrial production and our industrial exports were multiplied by four. We had reached the point where we could see within sight the attainable ideal we had set ourselves out to achieve when we adopted in November, 1948, the policy of productive capital investment, the policy of using the savings of our own people and our external assets for the development of our natural resources which were described to the bankers the other day on behalf of the Government by the Minister for Lands as the neglected resources of the country. After Fianna Fáil had been in office for 18 years the official spokesman of the bankers describes the resources of our country as being neglected. At all events we set about putting an end to that neglect but that is what was described as false prosperity. In every year of our office we reduced taxation. Every year unemployment was decreased, industrial production increased, agricultural production increased, and a decent, forward, and courageous policy of agriculture was adopted, the results of which the present Government are now taking advantage of.

Having misread all the economic factors and misconstrued the facts which stared them in the face, they set out upon this policy. Possibly, it was through incompetence, and probably because they saw the opportunity of downing the achievements of their predecessors, but whatever the reason the result of it was that it caused a grave disturbance in every sector of the economy. We had talks from the Minister for Industry and Commerce suggesting to the people that they would not have enough money to pay the civil servants by the Christmas of 1951, while the Minister for Finance stated that the financial position was difficult to the point of desperation. Fianna Fáil lives on crises and disturbances. The effect of that crisis talk, notwithstanding the fact that the Minister for Industry and Commerce had to get up in this House in the discussion of the White Paper on theTrend of External Trade and Payments and admit that there was no crisis although he and his colleagues had been battening on the existence of a crisis for the purpose of making political capital against their predecessors for some months before. The effect of that crisis subsists at the present moment, and people are still afraid, and are still timorous, of investing in this country because of that crisis talk which was so rife during the late summer and early autumn of 1951. We have not yet got over the effect of that. But, whatever the object of that particular type of campaign during that time, even though it has long since been abandoned, people still feel that there is something wrong.

That was the policy, at all events, that was initiated and put into practical effect by the Budget of 1952. That is the policy which has led them to the position where they must depend on relief schemes to cure unemployment. That was the policy which we warned them would inevitably and directly bring about unemployment. We have now the position that the country is overtaxed and out of that overtaxation, or out of borrowed moneys, more probably, works are being found throughout the country to employ people, but the unemployment is the direct and the intended result of Government policy.

I want to ask Deputies, and to ask the people outside in the country, to compare our policy with the policy which has been operated during the last two and a half years, the kind of policy which, we may anticipate, shall be in operation for the next few months before the general election which must inevitably take place very shortly. It was a fundamental point of our policy that we should put an end to unemployment. Our policy for the ending of unemployment was to get away from these haphazard and patchwork schemes of relief works which had been such a feature of Fianna Fáil's policy in the 16 years during which they had been in office. We saw, and we were so advised, that it was wrong for this country to have its resources neglected —that there were undeveloped resources of land, men and money—andthat we should get schemes of works of a productive capital nature on foot —that it was the way to give well-paid, secure employment and to increase the standard of living of our people. We set ourselves to devise a scheme of that kind, and we did so by means of a financial policy which we called a policy of productive capital investment. That policy was founded, unlike the policy of Fianna Fáil, upon the maintenance of a low level taxation, coupled with a high level of investment for national purposes and on a national basis.

We operated that scheme through the machinery of the capital Budget which we devised and which was set aside by the Minister for Finance in the present Government. It was an integral part of that policy that the savings of our people should be voluntarily lent to the Government by means of public loans for investment to finance schemes of capital works and to increase the standard of living of our people. We believed, and still believe, that high in the priority of governmental obligations is the necessity for not merely maintaining that level of employment and standard of living, but of increasing the level of employment and the standard of living of our people. It was also an integral part of that policy that while works of a capital productive nature would be undertaken, that other works, though not immediately productive of money returns but of human improvement and character, such as schools, housing and hospitalisation, should be undertaken by the Government and that the scheme of Government investment, through the medium of moneys borrowed from the people and invested by the Government, should be merely supplemental to the activities of private enterprise in carrying on and maintaining business and industry, thereby increasing the national income, increasing employment and the standard of living generally.

That was our policy. That policy did not mean, and I want to emphasise this because it is in direct contrast with the policy of the present Government, that there should be a disproportionate share of the investment borne by the Government, or undertakenby the Government, out of the proceeds of public borrowing. We always felt that private enterprise, engaged in schemes of a capital character and engaged in maintaining industry and business free, would give employment, and that such enterprise ought to be encouraged. We felt that the people should be encouraged to save and to lend their savings to the Government, but that their savings should not be taken from them by means of forced methods such as the taxation or overtaxation we have had in the last two and a half years.

I ask the indulgence of the House in order that I may justify the work of my colleagues and of myself, and to bury, once and for all, I hope, the lie that has been spread in such a widespread way throughout the country that, as a result of our policy, people were living beyond their means and in a false prosperity. In several speeches I made clear the basis of our policy of productive capital investment, its limitations and the precautions we were taking to see that no evil results, but only benefits, accrued. The Government are boasting here, and in the country, at dinners, banquets and elsewhere, of their achievement in securing a balance of our international payments in the last 12 months.

In the speech that I made to the Institute of Bankers on the 19th November, 1949, I said this:—

"A temporary disequilibrium in the balance of payments is inevitable according as the repatriation of capital takes place. There are greater evils, however, than a temporary deficit in the balance of payments. This Government——"

I was referring, of course, to the inter-Party Government,

"——believe that impoverished and unnecessarily infertile land, lack of housing and shortage of hospital accommodation are far worse evils, evils which we are determined to extirpate and which would even justify short-term economic loss for the sake of social and long-term economic gain."

The Government might boast—and if their boast was justified, which it is not, there might be something to be said for them—they may boast that as a result of their policy of restriction of credit, higher taxation, reduction of consumption, they have secured a balance in their international payments, but they have done so at the expense of having the unique privilege of being the only country in western Europe that has had an almost catastrophic increase in unemployment and an increase in the cost of living.

We were not prepared to pay that price. We thought it was good business —and we still think it is good business —prudently to spend a certain portion of our sterling assets to prevent unemployment and prudently to devise and carry into effect a scheme of productive capital expenditure which we did and which we told the people about and which no single economist of any standing has criticised in any way, or denied as being proper from an economic and financial point of view.

I developed the thesis at the Clonmel Chamber of Commerce on the 24th April, 1950, and I would ask the indulgence of the House to let me read two or three sentences from that speech. I said, in indicating the basis of our policy:—

"Unlike many other countries, Ireland's economy has never been marked by recurring cycles of employment and unemployment. The inherent defect has not been extreme fluctuations in economic activity but rather what is technically called a tendency towards economic equilibrium at an unduly low level. The result has been that a large part of Ireland's natural resources has remained undeveloped and that there has been altogether insufficient economic activity to provide employment for all the population. Ireland's economic ills have accordingly been chronic. For generations before the recent war lack of work has compelled some of the most active and energetic Irish workers to emigrate. Others who remained at home lived an unproductive existence maintained by unemployment assistanceor by casual periods of work on unproductive employment or relief schemes. There was a shortage of work because the capital resources of the country were not being used to create work. In addition, particularly in agriculture, under-capitalised projects in private hands were not giving rewards commensurate with the efforts employed on them. Many attempts were made to apply patchwork treatment for these unhealthy symptoms but most of the money spent was wasted because it was spent unproductively. The fundamental trouble was the failure to recognise that the basic defect in the country's economy was the absence of sufficient capital investment to ensure that the maximum of national resources in labour and land would be productively employed."

That is a short summary of the basis of our policy which produced those results to which I have very shortly referred and to which the Government had the audacity to refer as producing false prosperity.

The Minister for Lands proceeded to the Bankers' Institute the other night and told them that the payments barometer is set at "fair." He told the bankers the good news that the balance of payments problem has been solved, and then he said:

"In view of the present balance between savings and investments and other factors making for financial stability, no harm, but rather good, would come from a reasonable extension of credit facilities by the banks to the Government, particularly for projects designed to increase national productivity."

He did not tell the bankers that the Government's policy in producing that position here—the payments barometer set "fair"—had caused unnecessary suffering and human misery throughout the length and breadth of this country for the last two and a half years. He did not say that although unemployment has resulted, relief schemes have been slightly down on last year. He did not tell them why unnecessary taxation had been imposedor whether or not it was intended to continue that unnecessary taxation in order to continue this financial stability to which the Minister for Lands referred. He told the bankers: "You might as well, boys, now cease restricting credit," but mind you he did not say: "Cease restricting credit to the business or industrial community." He said: "Cease restricting credit to the Government."

Hear, hear!

In other words, this Government by its policy had brought the country to this position: that although it had offered a 5 per cent. loan last year—an unprecedented and unwarranted price which will have repercussions in this country for very many years—and although it offered that attractive price last year, and only slightly less this year, at the expense of the credit of the country, by offering terms to the banks to lend it money at a price they could not get in any other place in the world, at prices which even British provincial corporations do not have to pay—the Government has reduced the credit of this country to the point where there was one loan at 5 per cent. and the other at slightly less, 4¾, and I do not think they would get any more. The Taoiseach had already said that we were going to have a loan every year. Now because the last loan did not fill —there were no more savings in the country to finance Government expenditure largely on relief schemes—we must go to the banks and tell them: "Do not restrict credit to the Government; you are going to cease restricting credit to the Government." In other words, "cough up." It was not stated at what rate of interest nor are we told by the Taoiseach. We have to inquire; we have to prod.

We have the position then where the Government has balanced its international payments at an appalling price to the community in human suffering. We have the position where at a time when there is greatly increased unemployment and a balance held in international payments there has been a pretty substantial increase in our external assets in that set of circumstances.We have the position that the Government has scooped the pool from the point of view of the available capital for the purpose of financing business and private enterprise.

We have a position that is in direct contrast to that which obtained under the implementation of our policy, a policy through the medium of which we encouraged saving by our people and the lending of these savings voluntarily to the Government for the purpose of loans to supplement the enterprise of private industrialists and private firms in order to provide employment and expand business. Now, because of the restriction of credit, which the Taoiseach says does not exist, our business people and our industrialists have been unable not merely to expand but even to do the necessary day to day work to enable them to carry on; the necessary capital for that purpose has been denied them.

The Taoiseach says there is no such thing as credit restriction. That must have caused many a bitter laugh on the part of people throughout the country who were interviewed in the last year or 18 months by their bank managers and spoken to in a manner which those officials would not have dared to adopt two and a half years ago. They were spoken to by bank managers in a way that decent people with good security were never spoken to since this State was first established. That was probably done by direction of the directors and doubtless the directors thought genuinely and honestly that that was good policy. In that the directors were following the lead set by the Government.

In 1952 the Government announced their policy of restriction of consumption, the reduction of the purchasing power of the people, thereby preventing people from spending, and the preventing of people from saving: the directors of the banks said: "That is all right by us; that is the policy for us." The Government may say, and probably say truthfully, that they never gave any direction to the banks to restrict credit. That was not necessary: a nod is as good as a wink to a blind horse.

Whether is was that the Government were complacent about the restriction of credit that existed, whether or not the banks fell in with the wishes and policy of the Government, and whether or not the Government buried their heads so deep in the sand they did not know what was going on and would not believe the people who were suffering from it, there is no doubt that there was a restriction of credit. There is no doubt that that restriction of credit has been a great source of economic trouble in the country within the last few years. The Government may be complacent. They may be ignorant. They may not have directed the banks to restrict credit to business and industry, but is there the slightest doubt that if, in the last 18 months, the Government had said to the banks: "We hear that decent people are not able to get enough capital to expand their business and their industry, to keep people in employment, or to give more employment, and we think that is bad policy and you ought to stop it," the banks would have done what they were told? But there was never any direction given. There was never any hint.

Time and again it has been stated here categorically in this House and throughout the country by Opposition Deputies that there was a restriction of credit and that that restriction of credit was causing unemployment and a recession in trade and business. Surely it is futile for the Taoiseach and the Government to say now that in matters of banking and credit and the restriction of credit to industry they abrogate all control and all direction and even refrain from giving any advice in a matter so fundamental and vital to the people as a whole.

We have had the results and the effects outlined by the speaker at the meeting of the Institute of Bankers the other night. We have had the telegram that was sent to the Taoiseach asking him to use his influence to ensure that relief works will be supplied for the unemployed in his own constituency of County Clare. We have had another contrast between our policy and the policy adumbrated and implemented by the Fianna Fáil Government in thefact that while our policy was based upon low taxation coupled with a high investment rate for productive capital enterprises, the policy of the present Government is to borrow for public purposes and for relief schemes on the basis of higher taxation and a higher rate of interest. That contrast should be very carefully appreciated by those who are at present engaged in diagnosing the evils from which we are suffering as a result of Government policy.

Every year while we were in government we reduced taxation and we obtained money from the people at a low rate of interest. This Government has increased beyond all justice the rates of taxation imposed on the people and in addition to that they have borrowed money at unnecessarily high interest rates with disastrous repercussions on our economy. I have said that it was part of our policy in the inter-Party Government to leave something for private enterprise, private business and private industry. We did not scoop the pool. We let business and industry and enterprise get their money. We encouraged them to do that. The results of the policy of the present Government and of its borrowing in the last two years have been that they have grabbed so much of the savings of the people that there is very little, if anything, left in the way of capital for business or industry.

When I was opening this debate last week I stated that private enterprise and private business have been starved of capital as a result of three things: the restriction of credit by the banks; the high rates of interest given by the Government to people who lend money to them; and the high rate of borrowing by the Government for governmental purposes. It is no wonder we have the results that have accrued as a consequence of Government policy. We are in the happy position of being able to say that we have excellent people engaged in trade and industry in this country, people willing and anxious to expand, but they have not been able to expand over the last 12 or 18 months for the reasons I have stated.

I referred to the position as outlined by the Minister for Lands to thebankers a few nights ago. I said that the Minister for Finance, when announcing his budgetary, his financial and his economic policy emphasised that the first concern of the Government was to rectify the balance of payments position. I made the comment upon that, that that was not our first concern, though we were concerned with it. There were matters of higher priority for us. There was the matter of employment, of housing, hospitalisation, of providing schools and developing the resources of the country. In addition to embarking upon schemes of capital development in relation to land and other productive enterprises we financed these schemes not merely by loans and by the savings of our people but by the prudent use of part of the proceeds of Marshall Aid and by a policy of repatriation of external assets prudently undertaken and cautiously watched.

In 1951 and again in 1952 we were told by the Minister for Finance and his colleagues that the result of our policy was that our external assets were being dissipated and the country was facing disaster because the bulwark of our international trade was being eaten into and undermined. That was the case at that time. The acting-Minister for Finance, in the last few weeks, has engaged himself and embattled himself here in this House to demonstrate and prove that what we were doing was not expending our external assets but saving too much and not spending them. I do not know which way we are to take it. We were told at first that we were spending too much of the external assets and the acting-Minister for Finance and some of his colleagues have been repeating the charge recently that, so far from spending them, we were accumulating them. Heads I win; tails you lose. Have it either way.

The fact is that we had a policy about the repatriation of our external assets. He who runs may read. Every word that I uttered was published. It is there and available to the Government. Our policy in reference to the repatriation of external assets has been published, publicised and repeatedly made known to everybody.There is not a single economist or financier, with the exception of politicians of the Fianna Fáil calibre, who up to this has criticised in any way our scheme or method or approach to that problem.

I have already referred to this infamous White Paper of 1951. We have exposed again and again the fallacies and the inaccuracies that were in that White Paper on which the present policy of the Government was founded. The Minister for Finance, in his Budget speech to which I have referred, spoke of the fact that he wanted to make his first concern not the position of the unemployed, not the position of the poor, but that he would be able in some years' time to send a representative of the Government to a banquet of the bankers and tell them that the payments barometer is set fair although there has been unemployment, austerity and human suffering avoidably imposed in the last two and a half years. That was his first concern and was based upon the economic fallacies and disregard of facts to which I have referred.

In addition to that, he said that at that time they estimated that the deficit on the external payments account for the year 1952 would be £50,000,000 but that as a result of the budgetary policy which he was initiating and putting into effect that deficit would be reduced.

We were derided, scoffed at, sneered at by the Minister and his colleagues when we said, to use the words of the Taoiseach, that that was sheer nonsense. It was only £9,000,000 or £10,000,000, we said. We were laughed at. The Minister said £50,000,000. It was said originally that it was going to be £60,000,000; then that it would be £50,000,000 and finally £35,000,000. We said it would be only £9,000,000 or £10,000,000. In fact it was only £9,000,000, on paper. It was actually nothing. There was a great increase in the external assets that accumulated in the last year during which this balance of payments had been achieved. I use the word "achieved" in inverted commas. As I havealready stated, we told them their facts were wrong, that there were certain forces of a corrective nature operating which would bring about that situation automatically. Import prices were coming down, we told them. We told them that the high rate of import in the year 1952 was due to the Korean war and the stockpiling that took place as a result of that war by industrialists, private traders, individuals and Government Departments and that when that would ease off there would be a natural and automatic return to normality. But, more than that, we told them that the fruits of our agricultural policy would be garnered by them in the year 1952. The Minister for Finance said no, no, that there was nothing to show that import prices were coming down, according to the White Paper, and that he saw no signs and the Government could find no evidence that agricultural production for export would go up to any marked degree. What was the result? Last year our agricultural exports reached a point which they had never reached in the history of this country and which the present Government never thought they would see in their political lifetime.

Even Fianna Fáil cannot grow a three-year-old animal in a year. These exports were three years old. They were the fruits of the Government policy presided over by Deputy Dillon. They are now coming in to the advantage of the present Government. The Government is gathering the harvest that we sowed and that harvest is the unexampled increase in the value and volume of our agricultural exports last year, which are still going up this year and which were founded on the policy of the inter-Party Government. The cattle that were born and were prevented from being slaughtered in the three years that we were in office have been exported over the last two and a half years.

I want to finish on this topic by saying that there were three factors which contributed to the balance of international payments, which was the first concern of the Government even at the expense of human misery, sufferingand unemployment. First of all, there was the increase in agricultural exports which, I have said, have gone up to an unprecedented scale in volume and value, due to the policy of the inter-Party Government and the agricultural policy of that Government. There were the reduced imports. I admit that in some respects the Government were all too successful in the so-called correctives that they applied. The overtaxation of the Budget of 1952, bringing with it, as it did, decreased imports, brought about also a decrease of the standard of living of our people. Some of those reduced imports are due to these correctives and some are due to Government policy, at a very heavy cost, but they also occurred because there had been overbuying by individuals and firms and Government Departments in the previous year as a result of stockpiling. The third factor was a reduction in international prices which had been going on steadily ever since this present Government got into office and before it.

These are the three factors. For only one part of these three factors can the Government take any credit, if credit there be, and that is their policy of depressing the standard of living of our people by means of the reduction of imports. In that policy they were very successful and too successful. They would not have gone within £50,000,000 of closing that gap if it had not been for the contribution of a startling, dramatic character that was made by the increase in agricultural exports which has taken place since this Government came into office and as a result of the policy of their predecessors.

As I have said, I think there would have been trouble even if the present Government did not come into office, trouble due to world economic dislocation, trouble due to the Korean war. Taking all that into account, the best that can be said for the position at the present time from a financial and economic point of view, notwithstanding what I shall deal with in a few moments—the outlook of the Government on the present conditions —is that, approaching Christmas, 1953,we are just a little bit better off than we were at Christmas last year.

There has been an improvement, some improvement, for some people, but not for all. Quite possibly although we may not have a white Christmas, it will be a little less black than it was last year. That is no thanks to the Government, because what has happened is this, that because business was so bad last year as a result of Government policy, particularly budgetary policy, it had to improve somewhat this year, and we have only got back to where we stood. That is the contribution of Fianna Fáil after two and a half years to the prosperity and the happiness of our people. Trouble was there, as I have said, from Korea and from international methods, but it was added to by the budgetary policy and by the policy of decreasing consumption and decreasing the purchasing power of the community which was initiated by and put into effect after the Budget of 1952.

What industrial progress has there been made? Deputy Lemass, Minister for Industry and Commerce, is engaged very heavily in making speeches. What industrial progress has there been made? I have already referred to it. So far as industrial production is concerned we have the privilege—and I use the word "privilege" in inverted commas—of being classed as one of the countries in which there was the lowest percentage decrease in industrial production in western Europe during the period up to 1951. That is a proud boast. If there is to be any industrial progress, that progress should be a continued progress growing from year to year and the figures for industrial production should in every year show the increase, but not merely was there not an increase for 1951-52, there was a serious decline and it is only now in recent months that we have got back, after two and a half years of the operation of the policy of the present Government, to the position that we left it so far as industrial production is concerned in June, 1951. Two and a half years under the operation of the policy of the present Government has only resulted in reducing industrial consumption, and whatever improvementhas been made in the last few months has only effected the improvement of bringing this country back to the point where we left it two and a half years ago. That is not anything to be proud of. It is no wonder that the Minister for Lands, when he was at a banquet of the bankers, was only able to speak of the payments barometer being at set fair. There was nothing else in that speech except financial stability and the payments barometer being at set fair—no indication there of a policy of utilising the moneys, the capital, which he was threatening the banks they would have to give him and to his Government. What is borrowed from the people or from the banks does not matter very much. What is borrowed from the Government or from the bankers is of no very great importance. What is of vital importance is to ascertain the purposes to which those borrowed moneys will be put. We have no indication of that at the present moment, and the only thing that we can do is to infer from all those various speeches that there is going to be an extension of relief schemes. We are going to have an industrial development fund. I do not know what name they are calling it—a development fund. So far all the indications as to what this fund is to be used for demonstrate that it is to be used for what are in the nature of relief schemes.

The Government are very fond of trappings. They are very fond of funds. We had a Transition Fund which we found when we got into office. Deputy McGilligan has retailed to the House the disastrous history of that fund, in which there was nothing. A fund is a grand thing to tell the people about, but it means nothing. There is no difference between getting it from the banks or from a Transition Fund or from the people by ways and means advances. What purpose or object is there in putting a label on it and trappings around it and calling is a development fund? They could develop this country without calling it anything else provided that you get the money and put it into proper objects which will result in producing employment and increasing the standard of living for all sections of the people.

Before I pass from the matter of industry, there is one matter I wish to mention by way of protest. I have always objected to the Fianna Fáil policy of identifying Irish industry with the politics of Fianna Fáil. Throughout the whole course of their political career here they have dragged Irish industry as part of their stock-in-trade, trying to get it into the people's heads that the people on these benches are against Irish industry. May I, in order to put an end, if possible, to that very foul abuse of public policy which is part of the stock-in-trade of Fianna Fáil, refer to a speech I made within a few months of being appointed head of the Government of this country, in protest against that class of thing? I raise it here in this debate because of the fact that in every by-election that has been held since this Government took office, members of the Government, and particularly the Minister for Industry and Commerce, have gone around the constituency in which the by-election is being held, not building castles in the air but building factories in the air. When I was speaking on the 7th April, 1948, in Cork, at a meeting of the Federation of Irish manufacturers, I made this statement, and I want to repeat it here to-day:

"It is to be regretted that in the past few years Irish industry has come to be regarded as dependent upon political views and likely to be affected by political changes. At the very outset of my remarks, I would like to emphasise the conviction which I have held for many years, that great disservice can be caused, as it has, in fact, been caused, to Irish manufacturing industry by the part with which it has been made to play in Irish politics, and to express the hope that an end will now be put to the use by politicians for political purposes of Irish industry."

Further on I said:

"A new chapter in our industrial and commercial history began with the establishment of this State. Since then it has been the policy of every Irish Government to encouragethe development of our manufacturing industry and to assist them against unfair competition from abroad. Whatever differences may have existed as to the methods to be employed no fundamental difference can be found as to the objective to be attained. The policy of selective protection may, in the views of some, have been too conservative. The policy of wholesale tariffs or quotas may, in the views of others, have led to dislocation in other parts of and so damaged the general economic structure of the State. However divergent the views may have been on machinery or method, there is unanimity on the necessity for fostering, developing and strengthening Irish manufacturing industry."

I want to repeat that again here and to protest against the use that has been made by this Government, and particularly by the Minister for Industry and Commerce, of Irish manufacturing industry as a tool for political purposes against the Opposition.

There would be far greater hope for the development of Irish manufacture and Irish industries if there was a sound financial and economic policy based on a sound agricultural industry. Such a sound financial and economic policy based upon a sound agricultural industry, would do far more for Irish manufacturing industry than any hawking round, for political purposes, of these factories in the air that have been so often mentioned by members of the present Government for political purposes. It is at least comforting to know that the Minister for Industry and Commerce has now seen—and he has emphasised it in several speeches he has made—that a sound agricultural industry is the basis of a sound manufacturing industry. Again, we are all at one on fundamentals—all in favour of Irish manufacturing industries, however we may differ as to some of the methods to be employed to that end, or whatever our convictions may be against free trade or for free trade. We are all in favour of developing an Irish manufacturing industry, but I want to stigmatise the efforts made by the Minister for Industry and Commercein hawking round these mythical factories on the occasion of by-elections for the purposes of securing votes, as something that should be ended and ended for ever.

Speaking of agriculture leads me naturally to draw attention to the danger that is facing agriculture at the present moment as a result of Government policy. It is very satisfying to know, from announcements made in the House within the last few weeks, that it is intended to discuss with the British Government the effect on our agricultural exports of the partial decontrol of cattle and other agricultural exports in England. I want to impress upon the Government the dangers that face the agricultural industry at the present time by reason of the fact that the industry has imposed upon it, by overtaxation and other aspects of general Government policy, a too costly system of production. Our average exports for the years 1948, 1949 and 1950 were value for £166,000,000. Our imports in 1952 were £172,000,000. Whatever figures are available for this year indicate that there has been an increase in imports. If these imports continue to rise, there must be a corresponding increase in our exports, both in volume and in value, to finance imports. As I say, if the costs of our agricultural production be increased, as they are in fact steadily rising, there will be a very grave tendency for our agricultural exports dangerously to diminish as they cease to be profitable. I put that warning, which has already been given by my colleague, Deputy Dillon, who knows the circumstances far better than I do, to the Government. Government policy has increased the cost of agricultural production. Markets for produce such as butter, eggs and poultry have almost disappeared. If we go on increasing the cost of production for our farmers, the remaining exports of cattle, sheep, wool, etc., may possibly decline to a point where our agricultural exports, on which the prosperity of this country and the balance of our international payments eventually depend, will decline. That is the picture, and my comments on the picture, as it exists, and on the Governmentpolicy in operation up to this, so far as we can ascertain it.

What of the future? In 1952, the Minister for Industry and Commerce, Deputy Lemass, went to a banquet of the Insurance Institute, the same body at whose banquet he spoke on Monday night last. There he announced in December, 1952, that alarm was giving way to confidence. Then he kept quiet for a bit and on the 27th April, 1953, he spoke in Jury's Hotel, no less, at a Fianna Fáil cumann. There, as reported in the Irish Pressof the 28th April, 1953, nine months ago, he made this remarkable statement:—

"We are filled with some confidence that the country is again facing a period of expansion and development and that under Fianna Fáil leadership these opportunities will be fully utilised."

How did the country expand? How did it develop? After that speech there was inaugurated the policy of the present Government, a new policy perhaps, or perhaps the same old policy under a different guise, but it was a policy anyway, a policy that may be described as a policy of reconstructing Ireland by means of pulling weeds out of the Dodder, pulling up the tram tracks in the streets of Dublin and starting relief schemes all over the country. It was after that speech that we had the policy of pulling up the tram tracks and of pulling the weeds out of the Dodder in answer to the march of the unemployed. Is that the policy of expansion and development that we were facing in 1953?

In the very same speech he had the effrontery—and his effrontery knows no bounds—to state this:—

"The inability to expand agricultural output in three very favourable post-war years was the Coalition's greatest failure."

I could not allow that to pass without some comment. Deputies will recall that in September, 1947, at a time when the Minister for Industry and Commerce did not think that he was going to be thrown out on his ear in a few months, he warned the peoplethat they were facing "three or four years of unexampled difficulty, trial and danger". That was what he said they were facing when he was in the Government but when we became the Government for these three or four years of "unexampled difficulty, trial and danger", that period was turned into a period described by him, post factum,as “the very favourable postwar years”. I have already shown what we did for agriculture. As Deputy Dillon has pointed out, after the inter-Party Government was formed, as a result of the policy of fertilising the land, the eradication of disease in cattle and the other schemes put into operation by the inter-Party Government, more was got for an old hen than had been received for a calf in the preceding years. We now see the results in the fact that our agricultural exports have reached heights which it was never thought previously could be attained. It is in that situation that the Minister could say on the 28th April last that we were facing a period of expansion and development.

Then the Taoiseach proceeded to give his contribution some months afterwards. In the intervening period between April and the 30th October, 1953, when the Taoiseach made his speech at the Fianna Fáil Ard Fheis, we had the policy of relief schemes going full blast. The tram tracks were being pulled up in the streets of the city and the weeds were being pulled out of the Dodder at great speed. Promises of relief works were being broadcast and, of course, it was a mere coincidence that during that period there were two by-elections going on in the country.

The Taoiseach came along in October and went further. What did he say? He said: "Our financial problems have been successfully solved and we are back again on the high road to recovery." Then he made the statement I have already quoted that industrial wages and agricultural wages have increased proportionately more than has the cost of living. I do not know if he will get a single agricultural worker, not to speak of an industrial worker, and certainly not tospeak of any of the so-called middle classes, who will agree with that proposition.

Then he winds up in a blaze of glory and high flights of eloquence:—

"The facts and figures which I have given all bear out the impression of a buoyant economy, a prosperous agriculture and expanding industry."

Previous to that he said:—

"It might be expected that the favourable indications which I have mentioned will be reflected in the Exchequer returns and such indeed is the case. In the first half of the present year the Exchequer returns showed an increase in revenue of over £5,000,000 as compared with last year, despite the fact that no additional taxes were imposed in the Budget."

There is the cat out of the bag. I will identify the cat later.

Then the Minister for Industry and Commerce, on Monday last, stated:—

"It could be asserted with some confidence that the outlook for 1954 was bright and that all economic trends were in the right direction."

About the same time, the President of the Builders' Federation—I cannot at the moment put my finger on the quotation—spoke of the restriction of credit and the unemployment in the building industry that existed, and said there were 400 carpenters seeking employment in Dublin alone. I heard one of my own colleagues last week asking another colleague in the Party could he by any chance get a job for a decent carpenter, and he said he could not. During our term of office I had to go on the air as Taoiseach and ask the carpenters and the plasterers and the skilled labourers to come back from England and work here, and there is the record of the present Government's policy—400 carpenters in the City of Dublin alone are unemployed at the present moment.

Is that the buoyant economy or expanding industry as described by the Taoiseach? Could conditions whichhave brought that about and which still exist at the present moment, be described as they were described about a month ago by the Taoiseach, as an impression of a buoyant economy, a prosperous agriculture and expanding industry? Can that be said, having regard to the fact that on Monday evening I saw in the Evening Heraldthat a telegram had been sent from the County Clare to the Minister for Local Government and also to the Taoiseach asking them to provide relief works for the unemployed in the County Clare? There is your buoyant economy and the result of your policy for the last two and a half years.

But there are indications in the speech of the Taoiseach and in all these optimistic utterances, however unfounded they may be, of a new policy. He is going to get money from the banks. The Government have asked the banks to cease restricting credit to the Government, not to private individuals. They want more money. They want to have their hands on all the money they can get in the next few months. The Taoiseach said that there was £5,000,000 more than last year coming in. There is the vindication of what I said about the Budget of 1952 when I spoke from these benches. I said that it was a cruel and unjust Budget, because the taxes were unnecessary and that there were contained in that Budget proposals which would bring in to the Government greater increases and far more from taxes than they required for the running of the country and for Government purposes: that there would be a surplus of £8,000,000 or £9,000,000. I was right at that time and I have been proved right.

The surplus which they anticipated by the end of the financial year can no longer be concealed. It can no longer be concealed that there will be a surplus this year emerging from a period when there was such unemployment as I have referred to, when there was restriction of credit, when industry had declined in the way I have stated, when there was no indication of a boom in trade or industry to justify the fact that the increased yield of taxes came from an increase in the national income such as we aimed at; when allthe indications were of economic distress and suffering. That is not the time when you get a surplus of revenue from taxation. You get a surplus of revenue from the taxes imposed under the 1952 Budget when unnecessary taxation was imposed for the express purpose, as we said, and as we repeat now, of getting a surplus in order that, at the proper moment, this Government would have in its hands funds to be used for the purpose of distributing benefits to the people, and to try and convince the people that this was a beneficent Government giving relief in taxation, having done a good job in clearing up the financial mess.

We said that that was the scheme, and we have been proved right. Now there is to be a surplus. It was concealed last year by a variety of methods, by Government book-keeping and other methods to which I referred in public. I referred in a speech at Youghal to the fact that Government method of book-keeping and public accountancy should be changed because by these methods Governments are enabled—I hesitate to use the phrase —to cook the accounts. They allowed money that should be given at the end of last year to flow into the next year's Budget. They did not want to show a surplus last year because we would be justified.

This time 12 months they were able to forecast that there would be a deficit. I challenge the Taoiseach now, in his reply, to say, inasmuch as he was able to forecast this time last year that there would be a deficit at the end of the financial year, what is his estimate of the anticipated Budget surplus that will accrue, or be allowed to accrue, this year. The Taoiseach was rejoicing at the Fianna Fáil Ard-Fheis that there would be this Budget surplus of £5,000,000 more than last year. Then the Minister for Finance, or his officials more likely, as they always did if any unfortunate member of the Government ever showed the slightest indication that he believed there was anything prosperous about the country or anything likely to give an increased yield in taxation, cried "halt" at once and there was aspeech by the Minister for Finance, saying: "You will have to remember that Government expenditure is going up" and the inevitable happened. The Taoiseach having stated that there was a buoyant economy, a prosperous agriculture and expanding industry and £5,000,000 more than last year in revenue, the Minister for Lands, Deputy Derrig, acting on behalf of the Minister for Finance, told the bankers that there was plenty of money coming in, but they should remember that expenditure was going up. But remember that the expenditure is going to be so that they will have little safeguards in case there might be an election next year. They will have it both ways.

I stated here categorically that what is happening now is that, just as the Government in the country are making elaborate arrangements for a general election, so they are arranging their policy and are trying so to bring it about that by means of this surplus— which we said was there last year and which we say is there still—they will be able to pour benefit on the people and say: "We were able to reduce taxation; the inter-Party Government"—that put thousands of people additionally into employment and which was able to reduce taxation, increase pensions and take the taxes off the beer and tobacco—"were able to give you only a false prosperity; we will give you the real thing; now that we have cleared up the financial mess and have created deliberately as a result of our policy unemployment, emigration and austerity, we are in a position to put you back into a period of prosperity; and, in order to do so, we are tearing the weeds out of the Dodder and digging up the tram rails in Dublin."

I want to end on this aspect of the matter of the Budget surplus. I do not know whether the method of accountancy in the Department of Finance will be so utilised this time as it was last year to conceal what was, in fact, a Budget surplus, but I anticipate that there will be a surplus, and, apparently, the Taoiseach anticipates it also. Whatever surplus there is will be the measure of the overtaxation that was imposed by the unjust andunecessary proposals for taxation in the Budget of 1952.

There are some matters of a general character I want to refer to, I hope very briefly. There is one matter that very shortly indeed I want to draw attention to, as it is a matter of general concern—although it might be said to be more appropriate to a particular Department. It is a matter of general concern as it affects the rights of private individuals as against big corporations and possibly the Government as a whole. I want to know why the Government or some of its members allowed a law action to go on in the courts costing the ratepayers of Dublin at least £16,000, for the purpose of showing that the Dublin Corporation had not delayed in having a planning scheme. That is not a matter that affects merely the citizens of Dublin; it is a matter of very vital concern to everyone. There was litigation on the question whether the Dublin Corporation had a planning scheme in operation in Dublin or not. That was brought by a company that fortunately was able to finance the matter or take the risk. If it had been private individuals—and there have been many private individuals in this city and in the country who have been adversely affected by the threatened exercise of rights of that kind by bureaucrats without any legal authority—the Dublin Corporation would have gone on merrily exercising those rights. When they were beaten at the public hearing, there was no justification for spending money in going on any further. That is a matter of public concern and it should not happen again. There is general reluctance on the part of big public corporations throughout the country to settle cases with private people, just as the Civil Service prefers, because they are afraid of the Comptroller and Auditor-General, to allow Departments to be sued in courts to the bitter end at great cost, because then they can produce the judgment and that ends the matter with the Comptroller and Auditor-General. So corporations throughout the country put the ratepayers to unnecessary expense in putting down a court order rather than have to justify to someauditor or other the fact that they settled the case.

There are proceedings of that kind in every direction. There are cases where officials of a corporation, particularly in the City of Dublin, go round and get property owners to negotiate on the basis that they are going to buy the property from them for public purposes. They leave them then for 12 or 18 months and then come back and say: "Good-bye, we are not taking the property." As a matter of general policy, I would like that that be stopped. It is a matter that affects individual rights as against bigger public bodies who do not mind putting either the taxpayers or ratepayers to expense.

I want to make one remark about the Government's foreign and external policy. They have achieved this remarkable result in the matter of our external policy: they have no foreign policy, and they have succeeded in doing nothing very badly. The mention of foreign policy leads me inevitably to the question of Partition. The Taoiseach knows I have taken the line, in the last two and a half years since the present Government was formed, of not speaking in public about the problem of Partition. I took a certain risk of being misrepresented and misunderstood by adopting that attitude, but I did so, as the Taoiseach knows, because I believed in the first place that in all the circumstances it was the best contribution that could be made while the present Government was in office. The attitude of the Taoiseach and his colleagues in the Government is that the question of policy in reference to Partition is a matter for Government policy for which they are responsible and that they should be allowed to operate whatever policy they may have and be responsible for it. Accordingly, I said: "They are in office now: they took upon themselves the responsibility for policy towards Partition; I will not embarrass them in any way but will give them a free hand and no criticism, and let us see what results can be achieved." I make these introductory remarks to explain my reason for breaking that rule—I hope for the last time before the present Governmentgoes out. I do so reluctantly. I do so because I feel that I am bound in duty to invite the Government to explain their policy in regard to recent happenings in the North, particularly in regard to the imprisonment of Mr. Liam Kelly. That is clearly a matter of general Government policy affecting the question of Partition.

I have been criticised particularly by one newspaper for certain statements that I made in reference to Partition and the policy we had on it. However, I did make this one point at all events, so far as I was concerned and my colleagues in Fine Gael were concerned—the sub-title of the Fine Gael Party is "United Ireland"—that we wanted in ending Partition to do it on the basis that fellow Irishmen— Catholics, Methodists, Presbyterians or others—would come into a United Ireland with goodwill, with no fighting and no bitterness, in solid acquiescence in the creation of a United Ireland. As I said at meetings on many occasions and as I said at the meeting of the inter-Parliamentary Union held in the month of October this year, a United Ireland could give a wonderful contribution to international affairs. That being our attitude, I hesitated to speak here to-day on this subject. I am sure that the Taoiseach and his colleagues feel as strongly as I do about the matter and I have also felt, probably more strongly than I do, the difficulty of keeping silence during the last few years, in view of the happenings up in the Six County area. Our flag has been repeatedly insulted, our National Anthem derided and prevented from being played, and so on, as far as they possibly could; our people have been prevented from having processions to celebrate in the way they wish the national feast of St. Patrick. They have suffered injustice, economically, socially and in other ways. I and my colleagues—and I am sure the Taoiseach and his colleagues—have kept silence on that with great difficulty, because of our hope and our desire that ultimately, as we believe and as I still believe, events would inevitably press the Government of the North and the people of the Six Counties of the North towards a United Ireland.

We believed that, inevitably, they would come into that United Ireland with a spirit of goodwill and a desire to work in the interests of the people of all Ireland, of all classes and all creeds, and to give the contribution that we could to international peace and international affairs. What makes me speak now and break silence is that I am afraid that the events of the past few weeks—particularly the arrest and conviction of Mr. Kelly for making a speech during election time—will open the door to a kind of conflict which we all desire to avoid. I was reluctant to speak here on this topic—and I am sure the Taoiseach will accept from me that I was reluctant—but I do so now out of a sense of duty and because it was conveyed to me from various quarters that we could not remain silent and that I could not remain silent on this matter. Therefore, I invite the Government to explain their policy and attitude not merely in respect of the arrest and imprisonment of Mr. Kelly but in view of what these things may betoken.

I pass now to An Comhairle Ealaíon —the Arts Council. I have occupied so much time of the House already that I do not intend to spend very much time on this matter. In view of the part that I played in the establishment of this council, and as this is the first occasion on which their report comes before us, I could not pass over it in silence. It would be ungenerous of me not to express some appreciation of the work that has been done by the council. It does not come up to my expectations or my hopes by a long way but at least there has been a beginning. Only a small amount of money—only £10,000— was spent. I think that the Taoiseach, with his control over the whole situation, should now see to it that very much more money than £10,000 is expended in the course of the next 12 months.

When I conceived the idea of an Arts Council, and set it up with the consent and closest co-operation of my colleagues, I had a number of objects in view. Some of these objects are referred to in the report which has been presented to the House; some of them are not. One of these objects was thatthe Arts Council would endeavour to carry on the fight for the return of the Lane pictures and that they would help to educate and keep the people of this country and Great Britain alive to the facts of the case in connection with that controversy and in connection with the claim of the City of Dublin for the return of the 39 pictures which Sir Hugh Lane intended for it. A commission which was set up by the British Government in the middle or at the end of 1924, and which reported early in 1925, found that the codicil embodied Sir Hugh Lane's last wishes so far as the 39 pictures were concerned. I had intended to raise this matter, in any event, on this Estimate this year. When I was the head of the inter-Party Government, I took every occasion I could to press the claims of the City of Dublin for the return of these 39 pictures. The Taoiseach will find all the correspondence and references to that matter which I left behind me in the Department. I asked the Prime Minister of the Labour Government in Britain to give us back these pictures if not as a matter of justice at least as a gesture of decency and goodwill. I did not get them. We are not going to get them from the British House of Lords. However, that does not mean that we are not to keep up our claim. I believe that, in the end, the ordinary decent English people—not the ruling classes; not those who spoke with such complete ignorance of the facts of the case in the House of Lords the other day— will recognise our claims. We will not get the co-operation of the types of persons who spoke with such manifest ignorance of the facts of the case in the House of Lords the other day.

It is one of the objects and functions of the Arts Council to see that the people are educated. I think the people have forgotten the facts connected with the controversy over the Lane pictures. Certainly the people of England have. It is all very fine for Lord Rugby to cast it aside and to say that Sir Hugh Lane never signed the codicil and that, therefore, Dublin should not get the pictures. That was a piece of futile folly and ignorance on the part of an octogenarian peer. Ishould like to repeat what a friend of mine said about the affair in the House of Lords in the past few days. I am quoting what my friend said, and acknowledging it, without mentioning his name. He said: "It may be Rugby, but it is not cricket." When Lord Rugby was here, we were under the impression that he was sympathetic towards our claim for the Lane pictures. We have not any great delusions about Lord Jowett or some of the others. We will not get back the pictures from the House of Lords but we will get them back from the English people if we tell them our case. I suggest to the Taoiseach that it is part of the function of the Arts Council to put before our people and the British people all the facts in connection with this matter.

It was part of my scheme, which was formulated with the full approval of my colleagues, that the chairman of that council would be Dr. Bodkin, who was mentioned in that codicil to Sir Hugh Lane's will in which he left the pictures to the City of Dublin. I regret that circumstances prevented this country from having the benefit of the unequalled and unexcelled knowledge and experience which Dr. Bodkin has in relation to painting and the visual arts and also the enthusiasm which he has, and which he infused into me over a long period of years of friendship, for applying the arts to Irish industry and for the revival of our crafts and the encouragement of our craftsmen. I regret that our country has been deprived of his services. From the comments which he made during the proceedings in the House of Lords, he is still available to help us in our claim for the Lane pictures. I regret very much that our country has been deprived of his services in connection with the advancement of the arts and the application of the arts to industry. He is still available and knows the facts about the Lane pictures more intimately than any other person alive to-day. The publicising of our claim and the reeducation of our own people, as well as the British people, on the facts connected with the Lane pictures, is of very great importance.

As I am speaking on the question of the Arts Council, I should like to refer to this wretched affair on O'Connell Bridge. After that erection hit my artistic eye with a bang, I put down a question to the Government. I asked the Taoiseach whether the Arts Council had been consulted about it. The reply I received was a laconic "No"—one word, "No"—and the matter was left there. Why did the Taoiseach not personally check up that matter with the Arts Council? That was one of their functions. The matter of that contraption has been raised at home and abroad and it has been the subject of gibes. It has been referred to as the tomb of the unknown tourist to the Tóstal. It has been universally decried. To my utter horror, I discovered that some sort of a scheme was to be put into operation by a Deputy of this House whereby this contraption would be covered over with marble or else that in it, or around it or somewhere else a fountain would be erected by the same people as were responsible for erecting that atrocity which is now on O'Connell Bridge. However, when the Deputy of this House discovered in the Dublin Corporation that the new scheme would cost £3,000 he ran like a hare. Apparently he felt that £3,000 was an appalling price to pay for something in the City of Dublin. It is about time we learnt the value of spending money on artistic objects to beautify our city. I understand that the present proposal is to be put aside, not because a fountain might not be suitable, even a fountain by the same persons as were responsible for the erection of the present contraption on O'Connell Bridge, but because it would cost too much. It was the cost that frightened them and not its artistic value or anything else.

I suggest to the Taoiseach that it ought to be part of the activities of the Arts Council to oversee and give advice in these matters and, if necessary to go to the Taoiseach and to say: "Let the Government stop this sort of thing which is going to destroy our city." I could not express an opinion from an artistic point of view on whether or not a fountain, the mostartistic and most valuable we could get, would be a good addition to O'Connell Bridge. I would require expert advice on that. I would have my own inexpert views, but I would like the Arts Council to exercise that function, which I believe is one of their great functions, to ensure that there will be in the capital city and in other cities throughout the country some control over the asininity of people who erect things of that description in moments of uninstructed enthusiam.

There is one final matter to which I want to refer in a few short words. I do so because of the importance it has in general to the country. I think the time has come when the Government as a whole should review the educational system from the point of view of the country and from the point of view of general Government policy to see whether—leaving aside the question of Irish, the teaching of Irish and the methods of teaching Irish—our educational methods are in conformity with the needs of the country and whether they are so properly designed as to fit our people for carrying on their business here, for living their lives here, for earning their livelihoods and, above all, for fitting them for being Deputies and knowing the arts of government.

I want to appeal to the Taoiseach particularly, in the matter of higher education, with which I think he has some concern and in which he is interested. There ought not to be any niggardly outlook on the matter of supplying money for buildings for University College, Dublin. There is in this city University College, Dublin, as well as colleges in Cork and Galway, and I believe that, in these three colleges, there is a ferment of political excitement. Our young people are getting a chance. We have material which can be very valuable for building up the country—intellectual and scientific material—and I ask that there should not be this niggardly attitude, this provincial attitude, about having the university on Stillorgan Road. What we want is decent buildings with a decent campus and decent opportunities for our students, opportunitieswhich will prevent a body of people coming from abroad and making the report they made about our medical schools.

Before dealing with the main items of the Estimate, I should like to deal with one or two matters to which Deputy Costello referred towards the end of his speech. I want to assure him that he has not got what one might call a fair view of things. He referred here to a law case recently heard in Dublin, arising out of the suing of the corporation in relation to the Town Planning Act, and he criticised the corporation for going to law and having had to spend something like £16,000 in costs. The position is that an Act of Parliament was passed by this House which imposed statutory responsibilities on all local authorities and, in the case of Dublin, the obligation of completing a town planning scheme. The members of Dublin Corporation cannot be held responsible for the drafting of that Act or for the legal interpretation of words therein.

The Act contained a provision that this scheme should be finished "within reasonable time" and the question arose as to what was reasonable. The corporation realising that a war of some years duration had followed the passing of this Act and that progress was being made in the matter of adding to the size of Dublin, felt that, until the war was over and the added area became a fact, it would be useless and senseless to attempt to complete a town plan for the city, without taking into account the 6,000 odd acres which were to be added to it. We were brought to court. We took legal advice and we cannot be held responsible as a corporation for acting on the advice of the best legal opinion we thought we could get. We lost in one case, and we found that, unless the Act were amended to give us more time or to interpret the word "reasonable", we would have to appeal. We did appeal, again on the advice of eminent legal opinion and we lost the appeal and a date was fixed by which this town plan scheme must be finished. At present, officials are working overtime on it; plans arebeing prepared; and a new committee is being set up to consult weekly with these officials in an effort to have the scheme completed within the period of time specified by the court. Deputy Costello put that forward as an argument against administration by the Fianna Fáil Government.

Deputy Costello also brought up the ridiculous controversy which is raging in the newspapers about what is called the bowl of light or bowl of water in O'Connell Street. He has again a complete disregard for the facts of the situation. The holding of An Tóstal——

How does all this dovetail in with the responsibility of the Taoiseach for his Department?

Deputy Costello brought these matters up and I am only answering him.

You may throw them in the Liffey, too.

If the Chair rules that I should not answer, I will accept that ruling, but the Deputy brought these matters up in relation to a suggestion that the ornamental bowl there should be erected to the design of the Arts Council. It was decided to hold An Tóstal, and, in a great hurry, the Dublin Corporation were asked by the Tóstal Committee to contribute money and help to make the festival a success. They voted the limit which they are entitled to vote under statute, a sum of £10,000, for the decoration of the city and this was one of the items which the city architect included in a hurry.

Deputy Costello has talked about the way it hit his artistic eye. So far as I can judge, artistic eyes can be hit very often not only by what a layman may design but by what artists may design, because there seems to be no unanimity amongst artists about anything. This was a first effort and a Deputy of this Party had a motion down for the last meeting of the corporation on the lines of what Deputy Costello has suggested, that the Arts Council should be asked to arrange a competition, in which they would be the judges, for a suitable ornamental design. My own reaction to it is this:there is a lot of talk about the neglect of all Governments, including this Government, in the matter of the erection of a suitable memorial to the 1916 Rising. I had hoped that when the artistic eyes got tired we might be able to erect even a temporary memorial to the 1916 men on O'Connell Bridge. In my opinion, it is the most suitable place for it, properly surrounded by a decent design.

There are other problems which confront us in that connection. For years the island on O'Connell Bridge was the cause of hundreds of fatal accidents to children and people who ran across the road. Since it has been blocked off from traffic, the death and accident rates on O'Connell Bridge have fallen to almost nothing. It is all very well to put something on top of O'Connell Bridge, but we have got to make sure that the bridge will carry it. Engineers will have to be consulted in order to ensure that whatever is put on top of the bridge will not endanger the safety of the bridge.

I hope we will not have a general discussion about O'Connell Bridge.

I am only suggesting that Deputy Costello might have sent us something in relation to O'Connell Bridge for the corporation to consider at the next meeting, when this matter will again be considered.

With regard to the Town Planning Act, all I can say to Deputy Costello and to the Deputy now occupying the front bench, who is also a legal gentleman, is that I do not understand what can be done and what cannot be done under the interpretation of the law, but I do remember that many years ago when Cumann na nGaedheal was the Government, there was a case in the law courts called, I think, the Bray Copyrights Case. An amending Act was brought in to ensure that the word "shall" in the main Act should now be deemed to mean "shall not." That was the end of that. The Government did not bring in an Act when we lost this case to provide that "reasonabletime" meant reasonable, taking into consideration all the circumstances.

I do not want to interrupt the Deputy, but lawyers, artists and O'Connell Bridge do not seem to be the responsibility of the Taoiseach.

Deputy Costello criticised the Government for having the corporation in the position where it was interfering with the rights of individuals under the Town Planning Act. I want to put it on record that under "reasonable time" you have also got to consider all the circumstances. If it is decided to plan, acquire and widen certain areas in Capel Street, for example, an estimate of the cost has also to be got. When planning in the City of Dublin regard must be had to the capacity of the ratepayers to meet what one attempts to plan. Certainly that was the position some months ago when we did not have a contribution from State funds for certain works.

I listened with great interest to the beginning of Deputy Costello's speech last Thursday and to the speech he made to-day. Frankly, I am not in a position to say whether Deputy Costello's speech was, in fact, an attack on the policy of Fianna Fáil or a defence of himself and his Government for the three and a half years they were in office. We had phrases about our policy and allegations about certain things but there were no specific facts to bear them out. Deputy Costello read out numerous speeches of his own that he made to bankers' associations, members of trade and commerce and the Federation of Manufacturers. They were compared, if you please, with the speeches made by some of our spokesmen at banquets.

The word "banquet" was used whenever the Minister for Industry and Commerce was referred to. In the case of Deputy Costello, it was always a meeting he attended. I am very sorry that when the Deputy, as Taoiseach, was invited and entertained by legal organisations they did not at least give him sufficient food for him to remember the occasion was equal to a banquet.

Deputy Costello started off by saying that the Fianna Fáil policy was a policy of expediency. As far as I understand it, there has been no compromise on any fundamental issue of policy announced by Fianna Fáil. Since Fianna Fáil's very inception there has been no change in policy. It is a very simple policy. I will later deal with what that policy is.

Deputy Costello related that particular statement to the situation that now confronts us since, as he stated, the war receded. Is it not fair and reasonable to assume that after every world crisis, particularly after a world war, there are bound to be changes? There is bound to be an aftermath. The main changes after a war ends are a leaving-off of war effort, a falling-off in the numbers of people employed in war effort and a fall in the prices of commodities. It is fair to assume that these things happen but why these things fall or for how long they will continue to fall is anybody's guess. We, unfortunately, live in conditions where nobody can say that we are receding from war.

When the Korean war appeared imminent and when we were in the benches opposite and referred to it, Deputy Costello, as Taoiseach, indicated that we were talking about a mythical war. That is on the record. Now he has taken this mythical war as a fact. He tells us it is over and that the prospect of war, as we understand it, is receding. I do not know if there is anybody anywhere who can say whether war is moving away from us or whether it may not affect us very rapidly and without any warning.

It is true that since the end of the Korean war circumstances have changed. There has been a lessening of war effort and there has been a falling-off in employment in war matters. In our neighbouring country there has been an improvement in the standard of living to the extent that they have more food, more clothing and so forth and that they can indulge more in their own housing development schemes. That has an effect on us also.

Fianna Fáil recognise that had therenot been over a great number of years large scale emigration we would have had here a large number of people for whom there would have been no possible employment at the time. We also recognise that there are conditions, due to our economy, which bring about what is called seasonal unemployment. In those periods of seasonal unemployment what is wrong with the Government sponsored organisations and local authorities with Government assistance trying to assist those people who have become unemployed through no fault of their own because there is no other alternative? The seasons are there. For that reason an effort was made recently to deal with such a matter. The Government decided to set aside a certain sum of money for expenditure on what are called capital works. There are also what we call short-term works. Deputy Costello chose throughout his whole speech to refer to all of the schemes envisaged under that expenditure as relief schemes and opposed the idea behind them. He said that there could be and should be full employment in the ordinary agricultural and industrial undertakings, that there would be no unemployment of any kind if there was proper management, and that therefore this idea of relief schemes was useless.

What has happened in the City of Dublin? I only can speak of an area of which I have some knowledge. We had in the City of Dublin a number of persons unemployed; certain factors were militating against the employment of great numbers of them; certain changes took place in the employment of others and they became unemployed; and the Government introduced some addition to the Social Welfare legislation which allowed others previously not signing to sign. However, there was and is a number of persons signing on the live register who by signing are normally presumed to be looking for work and willing to work.

The Taoiseach himself sent for members of the House who are also members of the Dublin Corporation. He said it was his desire and the Government's desire that a local authoritysuch as the Dublin Corporation should try to find ways and means of giving additional employment over a long-term period and the word "relief" scheme as such was to be removed. They were not to be relief schemes. These were to do what was called special works not normally done out of the ratepayers' money by the Dublin Corporation. As a result of the pressure of the Taoiseach and the Government a special works committee was set up in the Dublin Corporation. Matters were examined as to how we could help and we went back to the Government and said:

"We have examined this matter. We understand your pressure and why you are attempting to rush us. We know you do not want us to dig holes and fill them up again. If you will give us certain facilities and considerable financial assistance we will be able, at a reasonable flow, to make our contribution towards bringing about relief of this problem."

As far as I can gather, signing on the Dublin labour exchanges in the Greater Dublin area, there are approximately between 3,000 and 4,000 male unemployed persons employable by us on such schemes. We cannot employ little boys and little girls, nor old men or old women; we can only employ persons suitable for such work as is expected from an unskilled labourer. We find that there are somewhere between 3,000 and 4,000 such persons employable and we thought we could, with the assistance of the Government, bring about a series of operations which would employ between 1,000 and 1,200 people. We would thus be making a contribution towards solving a certain problem in accordance with the wishes of the Government. We had long sessions with the Taoiseach and pointed out the difficulty there is in dealing with the unemployed situation. You have periods when you have large numbers of unemployed and periods when the numbers fall off, depending on what happens in business and industry generally. However, we must remember that unemployed labour isnot mobile and each area can only deal with what is happening in its own area. Consequently this problem was given to us to solve and a start has been made. A certain number of men, somewhere between 400 and 450, have been employed constantly since August on what are termed short-term amenity schemes.

Mr. O'Higgins

I would like to clear up one matter. The Deputy appears to be discussing some particular scheme in the Dublin Corporation. I presume it is in order. I would like to have a ruling.

No, I am not discussing that.

Mr. O'Higgins

Later on it may be that Deputies from other sides of the House may desire to discuss these matters. I take it that they would not be ruled out of order?

The Deputy, I take it, is discussing the method by which the Dublin Corporation is dealing with the unemployment problem as authorised by the Government. Is that the point?

No, Sir, not quite. What I am discussing is this: Deputy Costello attacked the policy of the Government in trying to meet the present unemployment situation.

Mr. O'Higgins

I am not objecting to the Deputy discussing it. I merely wish to get the line of the debate.

I endeavoured to limit the debate, and I did not see quite clearly, and do not yet see quite clearly, how the Taoiseach is responsible for a good many things that the Deputy is discussing. Do I take it he is replying to the statements made by Deputy Costello?

Yes, I am replying to the statements made by Deputy Costello. He castigated the Government on its expenditure, on its making available certain moneys for what he called relief schemes. I am trying to prove that the Government has made available and is making available substantial sums of money over a long period of time, sothat local authorities will be able to tackle the unemployment problem from time to time by engaging large or small numbers of workers, that the Government's policy, as directed to the corporation, has been that we should create by examination, by investigation, by calculation, and have available a pool of works possibly five years ahead so that we will not have to face from time to time the situation of people being thrown suddenly into the arena of unemployment with nothing available for them there.

It is the overall employment policy of the Government the Deputy is discussing, not any specific one?

Yes. The Government can only spend money itself on direct employment on what one would call Government schemes, the money being spent on Dublin Castle, for instance. The Government cannot build a bridge across the River Liffey, but the Government can say to the bridge authorities that: "If you can build a bridge and give employment in the building of that bridge, the Government will give you out of the special fund to which Deputy Costello alluded a 75 per cent. grant of its cost."

I was beginning to point out, Sir, that, as a result of money flowing to the local authority in Dublin from this Government Exchequer Fund, 450 people have been put on what are called minor schemes. Deputy Costello alluded to one of them. He said that it was a scandal to be wasting money on cleaning the Dodder. This is one of the schemes for which a certain small amount of money was being paid—I think something like ten men were being employed for so many weeks in cleaning up the Dodder. The Deputy who spoke first of all about the offence to his artistic eye given by the Dublin City bowl might cross the Dodder bridge and his eye might be offended again by a river running through the capital city overgrown with weeds.

Surely not his eye, his nose.

I did not wish to saythat, but I am glad the Deputy has pointed it out. A variety of schemes is being dealt with. The Government have made it known to our local authority, anyway—and I believe to others—that we have now £1,600,000 to spend in five years or less on road work in Dublin.

Mr. O'Higgins

Did the Deputy say "and I believe to others"?

Yes. There is the sum of £1,600,000 available for the City of Dublin. I am grateful to the Deputy for his correction, because I was making a mistake. I should have said that all local authorities have been informed that they will be given a sum of money, up to 100 per cent. on road work, in their areas. The Dublin Corporation has been notified that it must spend £1,600,000 within five years. Deputy Costello talked of a scheme of taking up the Dublin tram tracks. The only two schemes to which Deputy Costello referred—what he called relief schemes—were the lifting of the Dublin tram tracks and the Dodder. I want to tell Deputies that the lifting of the tram tracks in the City of Dublin is not a relief scheme. It is a scheme that has been going on for years. It went on throughout the whole period that the inter-Party Government were in office, but they never knew what was happening. They did not know that the Dublin Corporation had decided that a certain number of men would be employed on this work until all the tracks had been taken up. We could not possibly take up all the tram tracks in the one day. If we were to attempt to do that, traffic in the city would be dislocated. We had to have regard to the density of traffic in this city. The work had to be done, but not in the way that we speak in this House—of saying something without having any regard to the consequences. Everything that is done by a local authority is the subject of examination by the Department of Local Government, and in that way everybody's interest is protected, including the interests of pedestrians.

The lifting of the tram tracks will take another few years. There are two bodies involved in that. There was away-leave agreement between the old Dublin tram company and the Dublin Corporation. We know that the old Dublin tram company became merged in C.I.E. It took over the commitments which were there when the trams were taken off the streets of Dublin. A capital sum was paid by the company as compensation for having been released from the way-leaves agreement. A new agreement was reached whereby, because of the terms of the original contract with the tram company, C.I.E. is lifting the tracks and the Dublin Corporation is remaking the roads. That is being done by the two bodies concerned. Something like 300 men are constantly employed on that work and will continue to be employed on it, but that work, as I have said, has nothing whatever to do with the new development by the Government of providing large sums of money for local authorities to enable them to carry out works and so give useful employment.

We have not yet heard about any of these moneys.

Mr. O'Higgins

The Deputy has said that they have gone to every local authority.

I said the grants. As I said earlier, Dublin corporation has been advised by the most eminent legal opinion and the other side has been advised by the most eminent legal opinion, but only one side can win. That is why the Dublin Corporation lost its case in the courts recently. When I spoke about every local authority being notified, I referred specifically to the road grants. I want to say, further, that I understand the local authorities have also been notified in the last few days about grants being made available for amenity schemes, where they have unemployed in their areas. They are to send up plans in regard to what they can do, and indicate how they would propose to utilise certain moneys.

Mr. O'Higgins

What we want is, that, instead of looking for plans, they should send down some money. We have plenty of plans already.

Fine Gael think in terms of money in this way: the loading of money into wagons and sending it down in big trunks, so that when it arrives everybody will get a bit of it.

Mr. O'Higgins

I am thinking of the fact that in my constituency 500 men have been thrown out of work coming up to Christmas.

If the Deputy wants to do his duty, I suggest he should do what a number of us, in all Parties, have been doing in Dublin, namely, that on a few days or on a few evenings he should sit down and see what scheme he can recommend to his local authority which would give employment to the local unemployed, and for which the local authority can get a grant from the Government up to 80 per cent. of the cost.

Mr. O'Higgins

Hold on!

I am not holding on.

Mr. O'Higgins

You are giving me advice. May I remind you——

The Deputy can speak afterwards.

Mr. O'Higgins

The Deputy has addressed a remark to me.

I believe that the O'Higginses sometimes suffer from nightmares.

Deputy Briscoe is in possession, and Deputy O'Higgins should not interrupt.

The Government have made it known that money is now available to all local authorities for public works. We in Dublin are going to go in, possibly, for the building of one or two bridges and for the building of new civic offices. But we are going to spend the money that we are getting, without any contribution, on roads. We are going to keep that money for the people whom we can employ on a number of useful schemes. Is Deputy Corish about to say something?

I say that the Central Bank will cause ructions if you spend money like that.

I am not concerned with what the Central Bank may say to the Government. Deputy O'Higgins talks about sending money down the country. We, in Dublin, are quite satisfied if we get formal approval from the Department of Local Government for our schemes, and confirmation, in a letter, of their intention to give us the grant. We will not ask the Department to put the money on a lorry and send it to us to the City Hall. Fine Gael appears, on occasions, to be opposed to all capital schemes where employment is to be given.

Mr. O'Higgins

Do not talk nonsense.

Think of all the noise they made about Dublin Castle. What did they want substituted for it? Deputy Costello said to-day that from £6,000,000 to £9,000,000 should be spent on building universities. Deputy Costello, apparently, was not here the day that his own Party voted against the Government when it proposed to give £200,000 to the National University to put it in funds to pay for the land it has acquired, and on which it hopes some day to be able to build a university. I have seen circus acrobats from time to time. I have seen them loop the loop and, for humans, do all kinds of peculiar things, but could anything compare with the acrobatics, of a mental kind, which we have seen in this House on the part of Deputy O'Higgins who voted against the sum of £200,000 being made available for the National University?

Mr. O'Higgins

Is this Deputy Briscoe on the National University?

No, it is not, but it is Deputy Briscoe on Deputy O'Higgins's behaviour in connection with the National University.

Mr. O'Higgins

I suggest that the Deputy should leave the subject.

We have the usual attempt of a threat from Deputy O'Higgins that I should get off the subject. I am not going to be driven off it.

Mr. O'Higgins

The Deputy had better leave the subject.

I will not leave it. The fact is that the Deputy and the Fine Gael Party voted the other night against the Government proposal that the Dáil should authorise a payment to the authorities of the National University to enable them to pay for the site which they had acquired at Stillorgan. We had Deputy Costello to-day advocating, in his best oratorical manner, that it would be wise to spend money on the building of universities, and telling us of all the good consequences that would flow to the country generally as a result of that.

He was rebuking the rebels.

I do not know what rebels he rebuked.

You have your own rebels, too.

What I want to emphasise in that connection is that there is a building in Dublin called Dublin Castle. Dublin Castle, according to the experts in the Board of Works who have advised the Government, is in a very bad condition—a dangerous condition in parts and wholly unsuitable for the purpose for which it is used.

Was not it a pity that it did not fall down long ago?

I would be delighted to help the Deputy to knock it down.

You did not want to see it fall.

The part we are talking about is going to be put into the utility side and a certain amount of employment is going to be given on that. It will be capital expenditure but employment will be given to skilled and unskilled people. In the same way other authorities over which the Dáil has not direct control can devise schemes for employment in their particular areas and come to the Government and say: There is something we think is essential to be done; what are you going to give to help us?

I believe my colleagues in the Dublin Corporation, irrespective of Party— there are none here from the Labour Party but there are some here very close to them—are all—Labour, Independent, Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil— happy to give employment to the large number of men over a number of years —five years as far as we can see in advance—and that we are not going to be restricted by lack of assistance from the Government in going on with this work. I think it is well that the House should know that.

Deputy Costello talked about a speech made by the Minister for Lands. That speech was referred to a couple of times earlier in the session, but there was one word left out on those occasions. When it was referred to to-day, that word was added. The Minister for Lands was accused of speaking on behalf of the Minister for Finance and asking the bankers to remove the restriction on credit, and the implication was—when previously discussed in the House, and which we had always denied—that there was a Government directive to restrict credit and that this was an admission that something like that had been done and that we were now asking for that restriction to be removed. To-day, Deputy Costello read an extract from the speech, and the word added was "Government,"—that the restriction of credit to the Government should be somewhat lessened.

I do not know whether the banks have restricted credit to the Government or not, as a policy. I only know certain things that have arisen from time to time. First of all, when Deputy Costello talks about a restriction of credit to manufacturers, industrialists and traders, he does not seem to have any appreciation of the fact that the banks are responsible to the depositors for the money they lend to their other customers, and if 50 customers come in and want overdrafts to buy what in the opinion of the bankers might be large quantities of speculative articles which they feel might fall considerably as a consequence of the receding of the war, surely to goodness, the bankers' refusal to finance such transactions cannot be classed as a restriction of credit.

The fluidity of credit and cash has to be considered, and the velocity with which they flow along. I might be one of those who might feel very aggrieved in going along to the bank and asking for an overdraft to buy something which I think is good and which they think is bad, and being refused, but it is not a restriction of credit. It is a protection of the assets of those who have entrusted their money to the bankers.

I heard talk about the miserable conditions we are confronted with. Deputy Costello started off by saying that and wound up by saying that the conditions were better because their efforts had come to fruition. If Deputies read the speech they will see at the beginning that almost-skinless bones were being rattled around as a result of this hunger and starvation in the country. But I want to say that I had a number of people coming to me and complaining about bad trade. Is the Government to blame? We have had a very mild winter up to the present and a number of drapers and manufacturers of men's overcoats have been sadly affected. Surely that bad trade is not a direct responsibility of the Government, which cannot regulate the day that frost will come and the day that spring will come. A number of coal merchants have been complaining this year about bad business and we are all getting circulars inviting us to select coal described in its nugget form, simply because most of us have not been burning much coal this winter, as the weather has been very mild. Consequently, the merchants are suffering bad business, but it is not as a consequence of Government policy.

The Government is anxious to encourage industry—and nobody need emphasise that Fianna Fáil as a Government is not anxious to encourage the development of private enterprise. Deputy Costello suggested that the restrictions following the 1952 Budget on imports of consumable goods from England brought about (1) privation to the people and (2) prevented them from spending their savings. We knew when the war ended that there would be altered conditions in England and there might bedumping here and there was, in fact, a great attempt at dumping here of certain commodities now no longer commanding high prices. There is competition again in England for certain types of business, particularly in relation to a number of items manufactured in this country, but the Budget restrictions, while they mainly had the task of bringing down the adverse balance, also had in mind the protection of our own native industries.

I was very glad to hear Deputy Costello getting up and saying what he did say about native industries and we are all in agreement that there should be native industry. I am glad to know that the days have passed when industrialists in this country were accused of being in the business only for the purpose of fleecing the public for their own gain. We now realise, that for the purpose of development, industries are necessary and we also realise what Fianna Fáil has been preaching since its inception and what Sinn Féin preached. We have not to be told that agriculture is the main industry of this country. We know that, but what we have been talking about all these years is that we need industrial development in this country in order that our economy might be balanced. We do not need Deputy Costello coming to tell us about agriculture.

Mr. O'Higgins

An industrial arm.

Whatever you like to call it.

Mr. O'Higgins

I was just using the phrase that the late President Griffith used.

I said that this fact was well known and expounded not only by us since our inception, but also by Sinn Féin before us.

Mr. O'Higgins

The Deputy should not refer to President Griffith in relation to what he himself stood for. President Griffith was on this side of the House.

I stood for what President Griffith stood for before the Deputy was born.

Deputy Briscoe on the Estimate.

Deputy O'Higgins did very little to give effect to the principles of President Griffith.

Mr. O'Higgins

That comes well from the men who fought against and did their best to ruin the late President Griffith.

Deputy Briscoe on the Estimate.

If the Deputy wants the civil war brought in we will bring it in.

Nobody will bring it in.

If the Deputy read a bit of history he might change his mind.

Mr. O'Higgins

I do not need to read it: I know it.

Deputies will cease interrupting. Deputy Briscoe on the Estimate.

The Minister for Social Welfare pointed out recently that the money spent on social services during the last two years has risen from £3,500,000 to £7,500,000, clearly proving that some of the taxation of which Deputy Costello spoke was not taken off the backs of those least able to bear it and given to those who need it least but was taken off the backs of those best able to bear it and given to those most in need of it.

Deputy Costello used a lot of phrases of which I could not understand the meaning. He spoke about analysing the health or the illness of the body politic. Now, the body politic is either healthy or ill. It cannot be both. He talked in relation to the bankers about a nod being as good as a wink to a blind horse. I have yet to learn that bankers are blind; they are anything but blind as far as I am concerned. How a nod can be as good as a wink to the bankers I do not know.

Deputy Costello talked about this Government making it impossible forpeople to save. Early and late, he talked about people not being allowed to spend their savings on imported goods. He said he would get the people to save and to invest their savings at home by giving them on loan to the Irish Government, to the local authorities and to Irish concerns for the development of industry and the employment of our people generally. How can the people be induced to put money at the disposal of the Government? First of all, one has to give them as good a return for the money they lend as they will get elsewhere. Money is not as patriotic as individuals may be. Consequently, if people have been prudent and have saved money they want that money to earn for them by investment as much as it possibly can. They certainly will not give it to a Government, even their own Government, for a lesser return than they are getting at the moment. Therefore, when the Government floated a loan at 5 per cent. and the Dublin Corporation did likewise, those loans attracted a considerable amount of the savings of the Irish people.

Deputy Costello made comparisons between the manner in which Fine Gael and the inter-Party Government were able to get money cheaply and the extravagant rate of interest we are now paying. I remember when the Dublin Corporation, at the request of the then Government and with the sanction of the Government, floated a loan for housing, 10 per cent. was subscribed by the public and the rest had to be underwritten and given by the Government. When a slightly higher rate was offered 75 per cent. of the loan was subscribed by the public out of savings, and, be it remembered, by the largest number of small subscribers ever contributing to such a loan.

The Government now intends to seek another loan, and that money will be utilised on a variety of schemes of a capital nature. Deputy Costello talked about reproductive schemes. Many of our schemes are reproductive. We are hoping that those in which we will invest this money will be reproductive over a long period of years and providevaluable employment for our own people.

Deputy Costello said that Fianna Fáil lives on crises and disturbance. For 16 years we survived in face of a variety of disturbance. We did not create disturbances. We are not anxious for crisis to follow crisis. As a Government, it is our aim to create normal conditions. We want the people to take a long-term view in the acceptance of the policies we adumbrate. It is a good thing to know that there is unanimous acceptance now of our industrial protectionist policy. To-day Deputy Costello endorsed that policy. Now we know where we are, and so do those who wish to invest money. They need not fear that a change of Government will put them out of business. Of course, I am not speaking for Deputy Dillon, though I am sure Deputy Costello, as Leader of the Opposition, did.

Deputy Costello gave very few illustrations of the points he made. He indulged in theories and generalities. He mentioned that one of the things that the inter-Party Government insisted on doing was the building of houses, the building of schools and the building of hospitals. Surely Fianna Fáil cannot be reprimanded for lack of appreciation of housing needs. It was the 1932 Act that made it possible for large-scale housing development to take place. From 1932 to 1948 the number of hospitals built by Fianna Fáil has so far not been exceeded, even in the three and a half years of inter-Party Government. Every day we read of the construction of new schools.

Apparently we are no longer apart on that policy. We are glad the House is unanimous on the need for speeding up and continuing the projects we have on hands. Deputy Costello also referred to the development of our natural resources. The only single item that he mentioned was in connection with drainage work. Surely the House and the country know that Fianna Fáil is committed to a policy of developing our natural resources. That is one of the fundamental principles in its political programme. It was Fianna Fáil that started turf development in the teeth of the gibes, ridicule and threats of the Fine GaelParty. Turf is one of our natural resources. It has now reached an advanced state of development and that development is now accepted to the extent that even the Fine Gael front benchers are the greatest protagonists in the argument that there should not be any laying-off, even of a seasonal nature, of the workers engaged on turf development.

The land is a natural source of wealth. Fianna Fáil now at last has succeeded in making the country and the House unanimous on the subject of wheat-growing and beet-growing.

Mr. O'Higgins

Did the Deputy say beet-growing?

I said wheat and beet.

Mr. O'Higgins

I suppose you started the sugar industry also.

The sugar industry was started by a private concern and was purchased by the Government shortly after the change of Government in 1932 and the production of sugar became a Government responsibility. The Government set up additional sugar factories and we are now producing almost if not all of our requirements of sugar from home-produced beet. It was this Government that recognised the advantage of the development of electricity, not the Shannon scheme itself, but the development of other natural resources. As a result, we had extensions to the Shannon scheme and rural electrification, which the Government is sponsoring to the extent of £10,000,000 capital outlay. Many Deputies seem to have forgotten that the cost of the rural electrification scheme will be £20,000,000, of which the Government will pay over £10,000,000 which has to be found somewhere.

I heard Deputy Costello and Deputy McGilligan telling the House that they had warned the bankers that if they did not open the coffers the Government would have to do something about it. It was believed that that conversation—put it at that—implied a suggestion that the banks might be nationalised. We are not going to commit a breach of the Constitution. The Constitution recognises the rightof individuals to own private property. Money in the banks is private property. Therefore it would be wrong to suggest nationalisation and acquisition of property of that nature.

That would be a very funny suggestion.

I said it implied nationalisation of the banks. Deputy Hickey on many occasions informed the House that he felt that people who owned money should be forced to put it at the disposal of the State, for the benefit of the people, at a reasonable rate of interest. That is compulsion of another form. It is interference with private rights.

Is that a very dangerous thing for me to suggest?

I am not saying it is dangerous. I am not criticising it at all. I am just saying that the Constitution, to which I at least subscribe, recognises the right of a private individual to acquire, control and own private property. That is my personal opinion. That is what I understand the Constitution would ensure. We must approach this particular property, money, from that point of view. As between a policy that gives the impression that there is a threat and a policy of reasoning with people, it is far better to use reason than to risk the consequences that may flow if it were thought that there would be interference with the privacy and independence of our banks.

I will make Deputy Hickey a present of a suggestion with which I am sure he will agree. The Central Bank is gradually increasing its credit balance. It is somewhere between £60,000,000 and £70,000,000. Probably every year that sum will increase and will become a very substantial amount. I would agree with Deputy Hickey if he suggested that the time had come to examine ways and means whereby the State would be able to borrow at low rates of interest the money that is to the credit of the Central Bank, which is a State insurance.

We have been advocating that hard and heavy for the last couple of years.

My colleague from South-West has at last intervened. There was no sense in doing it when it was not there.

It has been there for the last 20 years.

Mr. O'Higgins

Do that and you will have full support.

Why did not the Deputy do it when he was Minister?

Mr. O'Higgins

That is what we were doing.

Why did not Fine Gael do it when they were in power? Not a pound of it did you borrow. Why not be honest?

It seems that it is very easy to tread on people's bunions. Either that money was there in that amount 20 years ago, as Deputy MacBride says, or it was not. I say it was not; that it was there in a considerable amount during the three and a half years of inter-Party Government, and I have yet to hear or see any proclamation or announcement made by the inter-Party Government on that question. I am speaking for myself on this matter. I am not a member of the Cabinet and I can only speak here and advocate what I think right, the same as any other Deputy. In my opinion the time is ripe for examination. Maybe Deputy Hickey will support that.

Indeed I will.

I am talking of an examination——

And action.

No action can be taken until there has been consideration.

The action that the Deputy did not take. This dishonesty is sickening.

Mr. O'Higgins

The Parliamentary Secretary is criticising Deputy Briscoe?

I am not criticising Deputy Briscoe. I am criticising Fine Gael and that gentleman over there.

When there is an interjection by Deputy O'Higgins he does not say it loud enough for one to be able to grasp what it is.

The Deputy should not be anxious to hear interruptions.

I am anxious to be courteous. It might be a question for elucidation.

It is discourteous to the House to interrupt.

The ordinary commercial banks are in a different position from the Central Bank. The only way that we can get private individuals to subscribe to loans is to ensure that they are satisfied that the loan is good and secure and offers a reasonable amount of interest on the investment.

Deputy Costello again spoke in two tongues, if you like. He spoke about the shame of our not having repatriated more of our money. Deputy Costello referred to speeches made on this side about that. We never said anything other than that while Deputy MacBride and Fine Gael were talking about repatriation of capital, the investment abroad in spite of them was growing, and when they handed over— in one particular year, certainly— investment abroad was higher than it had been when they took over. Now there are probably explanations and reasons—manipulations and so on. The question is, how do you repatriate? There was one outstanding suggestion left entirely out of Deputy Costello's speech, and I was sick and tired of listening to it and reading about it during the 1948 elections, and Deputy MacBride is responsible for it: money was going to be repatriated by the millions for the purpose of reafforestation in this country so that we would become independent of foreign fuel as a result of the alcohol we would make from the pulp. He has forgotten about that particular investment at home of our external assets, and it isas dead as a doornail, because now people know that that was counselled without a bit of intelligence or a bit of examination, without any reference to whether it was practical or not.

There would not be any great shortage of money if there is only going to be a difference between the two sides of the House as to what rate of interest you will pay, and that is the only distinction, and not the purpose to which it is going to be applied. If that is so, we are getting near each other. I can quite understand anybody saying —I said it myself in the Dublin Corporation when we were seeking a loan from the banks—that we refused it because it was in our opinion at too high a rate of interest. That is a matter of opinion. Another man might say: "If you do not take it at that rate you will not get it at all, you will not be able to go on with your schemes." Which is going to be the greater evil —to pay a ¼ per cent. more, or to lay off thousands of your workmen engaged in corporation schemes of housing either by direct labour or through contractors? There are differences of opinion, but what must go on is work. Work must go on. We could have a splendid time and argue out the theories of finance and come to some agreement or some improvement, but what we are all concerned about, particularly among members of this House who do reflect and consider, is what can be done and how can it be done.

Deputy Costello talked about one member of his Party telling him the other day about a carpenter who could not get work at home. In all my 26 years in public life a day has not gone by when I have not been approached by some individual who is unemployed, skilled or unskilled, clerical or otherwise. Every one of us has this experience every day, and we are quite alive to the need that exists to try to see that as many of our people as possible can be employed in gainful occupations, and that as far as possible for people who are in employment, if through circumstances beyond their control they find themselves unemployed, the Government and the local authorities should be able to step in and fill the gap of that period. Thatis what all this approach is about. Deputy Costello poured scorn on us. He talked about our funds, and he talked about the Transitional Development Fund. I do not think that Deputy Costello knows at this moment the purpose of that fund, and I will tell Deputy O'Higgins so that it can be put on record. The Fianna Fáil Government at the close of the last war realised that materials would be going up considerably, that wages would be going up, and that the cost of production in houses would certainly rise steeply; and in order that there would be a period that they could bridge until they found the real level of things a Transitional Development Fund was created from which local authorities were given additional subsidies over those existing in the Housing Acts in order that the houses might remain as near as possible to the pre-war level of rentals. That is called a stupid fund, a stupid thought, a neglect of the majority of our people. Every single thing that this Party thinks of and that this Government puts before the House there is some ground for, in my opinion, and there is good common sense and practical decency and humanity attached to it.

Does that mean that the Government will be guarantor for the £5,000,000?

The Government announced that there would be created, and has created, a fund of £5,000,000 which would be kept at that level and would be replenished as the money was being spent.

By the banks, with the Government as guarantor for the whole thing?

What does the Deputy mean?

The Government, in other words, would be responsible to the banks for the £5,000,000—the Government would be guarantor for it?

The Government is responsible for seeing that this money will be available for the local authorities who require it and will be paid to them up to that amount.

As to the exact machinery, when the Dáil comes here with the Budget and the Minister says he wants £100,000,000, the House does not ask him for a guarantee that that £100,000,000 is in the bank. We all know it has to come in in various forms of taxation and will be spent in various ways. In the same way, when each Minister comes in and asks the House to vote a certain amount of money, technically speaking that money is available for him to draw on from the Exchequer as he requires it, as it becomes due for payment. But each Minister does not, as I said before when Deputy O'Higgins talked about "send us down the money", employ a big horse and cart with a caravan trailed after it and all the notes of his Estimates stuffed into it, and bring it back to his office and say: "There is my money, now I can spend it." In the same way, this £5,000,000 will be voted by the House for a specific purpose and will be there on call from the Exchequer as it is needed and required by the local authorities. I do not know whether that answers the question as to whether it is a guarantee or not.

The Deputy should not be inviting interruptions.

I am not inviting interruptions.

It looked very like an invitation.

I am prepared to tell Deputy Hickey that I might be saying something which I do not understand and I would be very grateful to him for any assistance he can give me to overcome the mistake.

Deputy Briscoe to conclude.

I referred before to seasonal employment, and I say that this particular new development is welcomed by us anyway in our local authority here. We now know that we can set up a special works committee apart and distinct from the ordinarydepartments of the local authority's normal operations, and it will not inflict on the ratepayers, as some newspaper has been suggesting, unlimited increases in rates. It will be rendering a human service to our people who are in need of employment, mainly subsidised or mainly paid for by the State out of taxation. The city itself will be improved. I do not know, Sir, whether you have read, but I am sure you have, references to what were called the Wide Streets Commissioners of Dublin in earlier days. At the time that they were envisaging wide streets in Dublin and wide bridges they were abused, I tell you. They were called wasters and spendthrifts and madmen and I do not know what else, but to-day we look back on those men and we are grateful to them for their wisdom, for the foresight they had in enabling a city to grow as Dublin has grown since their time and still not be a little narrow street village.

A pity they did not do that in Wexford.

Notwithstanding the abuse that I shall get as a result of being chairman of this committee, I believe conscientiously that 100 years from now Dublin citizens will look back to this period and say: "Thank goodness for the wise men who existed at that period and who constructed extra bridges in Dublin and put better streets and roadways down." I do not think Deputy MacBride will be recorded amongst the wise men of his year.

I suppose Deputy Briscoe will. There will be a monument to him on Nelson Pillar.

No. I do not want to go on Nelson Pillar.

Anticipation is not in order on this Estimate.

I am not anticipating. I speak with absolute conviction of certain events in the future. Future generations are bound to look back on what happens to-day. Fortunately we live in an age where everything is recorded and they will be able toassess, without any regard for personalities, in a cool abstract manner who was who in these days.

And who was not who.

And who was not who. Anyway I, according to my lights, am serving those who sent me both here and to the corporation. I think Deputy MacBride will have to realise some day that those of us who serve our constituents faithfully and well will be supported by the people, who are not easily misled by all kinds of catch cries and things that do not concern them. We are living in an age where we must look to ourselves. Each one of us must do his little bit——

To look after himself.

——for the general good and the general well-being.

Deputy MacBride, I think, should take a little more time for reflection. Deputy MacBride had the opportunity and "muffed" it. The standard of living was referred to and it was said that the Budget of 1952 was such a savage Budget that it caused a reduction in the standard of living of our people. Then Deputy Costello went on to prove that what Fine Gael, and himself in particular, had prophesied in regard to the 1952 Budget actually happened. I do not know whether Deputy MacBride will subscribe to that particular calculation. It was suggested that the 1952 Budget would show a surplus of some £9,000,000. It is now suggested or hoped that the 1953 Budget will show a surplus of some £5,000,000 or maybe more. Deputy Costello said: "We were right when we told you in 1952 that there was going to be a surplus of £9,000,000. You put that aside by what is called cooked book-keeping, and you are going to produce that in the 1954 Budget, if you are going for election in 1954. If you are not, it will be kept secretly hidden somewhere until 1955."

It shows the confidence they have in us.

I think that Deputy Costello should know that if we are such good manipulators as that, and if we are going to have such a gift up our cuffs for the community, they will support us and put us back again.

Deputy Costello referred to the Minister for Industry and Commerce as going around, not building castles in the air but promising industries in the air. I do not think serious Deputies in this House will deny that the one thing of which Deputy Lemass as Minister for Industry and Commerce can be proud, is the success he has achieved in the establishment of a large number of industries in this country. He has been the spearhead for that development. He is the man who inspires confidence in the people who want to start industries, because they know he has a certain definite line which explains Government policy. They know what is wanted and where the country is heading in that direction; yet we are told that his promises amount to industries in the air. Deputy Giles, of course, is one of those who grumble at the rapidity in the development of industries. The agricultural community, he said, are being robbed of the agricultural workers. He thinks—it is a matter of opinion and he is entitled to his opinion—that from the agriculturists' point of view, we are going too fast in that direction, that we should concern ourselves with the development of production on the land and should not be wasting our labour on industries and factories that can produce articles which can be imported cheaply from abroad. I think he referred in that connection to bentwood chairs. That is a matter of opinion, but I think that Deputy Giles will be the first to concede that, whether the Minister for Industry and Commerce is right or wrong, he has at least succeeded in doing what he wanted, though that may not be in accordance with the expectations or wishes of Deputy Giles.

The Taoiseach when he introduced this token Estimate invited the Deputies to bring him over any ground they wanted and that he would meet them on the ground or grounds theychose. I can say with safety I am sure that the Leader of the Opposition has not confronted him with any great difficulty as regards answering questions. I hope that other speakers on the Opposition side will pinpoint the faults in the policy which was described by Deputy Costello as a policy that meant no good for the people. I hope Deputy O'Higgins will be able to show us what items of our policy are wrong. I hope he will tell us what we did not do that we should have done or what Fine Gael would have done in similar circumstances.

All I can say in conclusion is that I look to this day as providing a further valuable advance in the social outlook of this Government and of our people. I am glad to see the responsibility taken in a practical way for the employment of some of our people through Government aid and that this Government is not taking the line that it is not their duty to find work for the unemployed. I hope the Government will encourage other industrialists to come along and will see that existing industries are expanded so that a great many of our people who are now registering at the exchanges will be provided with employment. We want to see prosperity in the country. We want to see our people provided with the means of becoming prosperous. We want to see the savings of our people put at the disposal of the nation provided that these people get attractive terms for putting what they own at our disposal. I think this is a new step forward. I do not know whether it is being fully understood and fully appreciated or whether the local authorities in the country will follow the example of Dublin City and put to work, with Government assistance, as many unemployed people as they can. I hope that Deputy O'Higgins will race as quickly as possible after the Dáil rises to his constituency, to find out areas in which there are 500 unemployed people, what work they can be put to, and when he has got these particulars, with the assistance of the officers of the local authority, then I am sure he will be very happy when he is told by the Local Government Department: "We are glad you are able toput these people to work and we are going to give you a grant of 80 per cent."

It is rather a pity that the Taoiseach moved this token Estimate in a mere formal way and I trust it is not an indication of his attitude towards the situation in which the country finds itself at the present time. It is all very well for the Taoiseach in his opening remarks to invite the Opposition and the House in general to choose their own ground and he will meet them. But surely when every other Minister takes the opportunity to give some broad outline of his particular policy in regard to his own Department, the Taoiseach's Estimate should be introduced by a speech which would give a general review of Government policy, how it has worked out in the last 12 months, and what the changes, if any, are to be for the next 12 months, because I think the situation in the country at present demands that there should be some such statement from the head of the Government.

Let me say at the beginning of my remarks that I very much regret that the Taoiseach did not see fit as Taoiseach or as Leader of the Government to say on behalf of the Government and on behalf of the people of this country that he wished to protest against the imprisonment of Mr. Liam Kelly, M.P. for mid-Tyrone. I cannot understand the reluctance of the Taoiseach to do this. I am sure he will make some statement or is bound to make some statement on this in his concluding speech, but it does seem extraordinary that practically every public body in this country can make its protest, formal though it may be, that every responsible organisation, especially those of a political nature, can make a protest at the imprisonment of a man whose only crime has been to be a good Irishman, and yet this House could not devote even two or, say, three hours to a discussion, the conclusion of which would be a protest to the people responsible for the imprisonment of this man.

I have noticed in the British papersrecently that they have been inclined to regard this whole affair of Mr. Kelly, M.P., in a rather flippant way. I would suggest that the imprisonment of Mr. Kelly and his sham trial are of such seriousness that a protest is demanded from the Government to show the British people especially, and the people of the world generally who have any sort of interest in Ireland,that we regard this as being very repugnant to the majority of the people in the 32 Counties. If we make that protest, it does not necessarily mean that we concur absolutely in any sentiments that may have been expressed by Mr. Kelly. Many other good Irishmen have advocated certain other methods for the establishment of a 32-county Republic and I would suggest that we should not set ourselves up as the absolute judges of how we can best achieve the establishment of a 32-county Republic.

I think those people in the Six Counties who are desirous of seeing Partition ended are also very desirous that the Government of this country, or, should I say, the elected representatives who sit in this Dáil, should make our feelings and their feelings known through a public protest to those in Stormont and those in Westminister who must share the blame for the position in which we find ourselves in this country as far as Partition is concerned and as far as the imprisonment and hounding of Mr. Liam Kelly, M.P., is concerned.

I again seriously suggest that it was a bad precedent for the Taoiseach to create by the mere formal moving of the Estimate for his Department.

That precedent was established many years ago.

I have seen the Taoiseach's speech last year and he devoted quite a considerable amount of time to the introduction of the Estimate.

I think a Deputy wanted to know something.

I have a very good memory for these things. I think that was the Taoiseach's firstEstimate when he came back into power. He formally moved the Estimate and I think it was I who asked if he was not going to give us an idea of the Government's policy, and he continued speaking then, I think, for two hours. Last year he also made a pretty long contribution. We had statements recently to the effect that we are turning the corner, that better times are ahead and that the economy of the country is now stable, and I think it is only right that the Taoiseach should demonstrate how we are turning the corner, when we will turn the corner and where are the better times. Personally, I cannot see many signs that there is an improvement, and I think I can say, on behalf of my Party, that we will judge the Government or any Government, and we will judge ourselves if we happen to be the Government, on the figures for employment or the figures for unemployment.

As reported in column 504 of the Official Report for the 10th February; 1953, the Taoiseach said: "The figures for unemployment have been disturbing." How can it, therefore, be suggested that there is an improvement in the country when there is no improvement in the unemployment figures? If the figure for unemployment last year disturbed the Taoieach, surely he must be much more disturbed now to know that ten or 11 months have gone by and there is no substantial change and that, as far as we can judge, the situation has become worse rather than better? My experience in the last year is that many more people emigrated than emigrated even the year before. I can be challenged on that and I cannot corroborate it by statistics inasmuch as the Government have not yet devised a method whereby they can determine the number of people who emigrate. But from my knowledge of my constituency I can safely say that many more people have emigrated in the present year than emigrated last year, especially from the rural areas. I only say that from the experience I have in going around through my constituency.

The Taoiseach, in his concludingspeech last year on the Estimate, spoke about unemployment in the rural areas. In column 505, he said:—

"There is a great deal of unemployment, for instance, in agriculture. Yet we hear constantly that the farmers cannot get the necessary labour."

That may be extraordinary to the Taoiseach but it does not present any problem to me. It is true that in certain places there may be a scarcity of labour during the springtime and harvest-time, but surely it is not suggested that thousands of agricultural labourers should just hold themselves available in the rural areas until the farmer calls them? Unemployment is much more serious in the rural areas than in some of the bigger cities, because when there is unemployment in the rural areas there is a consequent flight to the cities, where the problem is enlarged to a very great extent. Unless we tackle this unemployment problem first of all in the rural areas, we will never find a real solution.

Let me say again, as I have said here on a few occasions in the last few months, that the situation in the rural areas is changing before our eyes. It has changed even in the last six or seven years. There is a limited scope for employment in the rural areas now for men and women who work for a weekly wage. With the cutting down of certain works under the Local Authorities (Works) Act, with the completion to some extent of the cottage building scheme and especially with the introduction of machinery into agriculture, there is less and less scope year after year for the employment of rural workers. Unless the Government can evolve some system, or can establish some industries, or define some work or, to put it simpler still, make available to the local authorities money to employ these people, not on relief schemes, but on productive work, I fear we will continue to have the drain of 16,000 or 20,000 men from the rural parts of the country.

Certain Deputies can think only in terms of relief schemes. I cannot visualise many types of work in thiscountry which would be mere relief schemes. The Labour Party and the Trade Union Congress approached the Taoiseach some few months ago about the provision of employment and suggested seriously to the Taoiseach and to the Tánaiste that the Government give serious consideration to the granting of more moneys to the county councils for drainage schemes. The only real objection I ever heard to the moneys that were spent on drainage under the Local Authorities (Works) Act was that there was no provision for maintenance.

Neither is there.

There is no provision for maintenance—agreed— but surely the Government has often devoted—and will again, I am sure— free grants to local authorities and others without any provision for future maintenance. Maintenance should not be a bar to the Government giving money to engage in this work, which was of so much importance. I would be the first to admit and agree in regard to certain criticism that was made of that particular work. There was money spent from which the full benefit was not got. That was inevitable. On the introduction of any new scheme, whether by the Government or some public body, it is inevitable that things will not be done properly in the first stages. However, I have seen examples myself of places where work under this particular Act was so beneficial that fields of wheat were grown in an area that for years before the scheme was introduced could not even grow grass. I was in a village yesterday in South Wexford, Bridgetown, that had been subject to flooding for years, as long as people could remember and as a result of work done under that Act that village has not been subject to flooding for, I think, the last two years.

We may talk about the establishment of industries in rural areas, we may wait to establish industries that will go hand in hand with afforestation; but in the meantime we cannot do better than invest money in the land, investing it in agriculture. Undoubtedly, in recent years agriculture in this country hasknown a boom. Parties may want to give credit for that to this or that Minister for Agriculture. Because Britain was at war and production was not at the peak at which the British Government or people would like it, this country benefited. In my opinion, agriculture must prepare itself for something of a shock, if not next year then in the following year or the year after that. The boom will not continue always. The top prices paid for cattle, and probably now being paid, will not always be paid. The countries of western Europe which had been in the habit of supplying certain produce and stock to the British market seem now to be getting on their feet again and the competition in agricultural produce will become much more acute than it has been in the last five or six years. We have evidence of that, small or big though it may be, in the matter of the turkey trade this year. Whereas last year and the year before turkey producers were able to command a pretty good price per lb., this year they discover that, because the British people and, the British farmers are up and doing about the rearing of turkeys, there is virtually no turkey market for Irish farmers or their wives.

Speakers on agriculture have referred at length to increased production, saying that the only way we can secure a sound economy for ourselves and have full and plenty is by increasing production. The agricultural industry, the farmers and the people generally, cannot increase production unless we put people to work and unless we give them the wherewithal to produce. Unless we can provide money for agriculture—and in doing so provide work for the tens of thousands we have unemployed—there is no use in asking for increased production. As long as we have unemployed men and work waiting to be done, we are not doing our utmost about production.

In the discussion on the Estimate last year and this year there were certain comments on the Central Bank, the Central Bank Report and on banks in general. Last year in winding up the debate the Taoiseach made some comments about the Central Bank. I do not think he committed himself oneway or another. He did not subscribe to the views contained in the Central Bank Report, nor did he say he did not agree with them. He said that the Central Bank Report merely gives an opinion. There is, however, something that we in this country must realise. The Central Bank may give an opinion. We can all say to ourselves that they are only a crowd of stuffed shirt conservatives and that we do not have to have any regard for their opinions. The important thing, however, about the Central Bank and its report, and the banks of the country generally, is that we must have regard for what they say. They are all-powerful inasmuch as they control credit and control the price of money. If it is the policy of the present Government or any other Government to invest in this country, to borrow for works of a capital nature, then I say that our programme with regard to capital works will be governed by the attitude of the banks. We have stated, time and time again—Deputy Briscoe to-day seems to come some little bit of the way with us—that if our Government have not control over the issue of credit in this country and the price of money we cannot say at what rate our country will develop. The Central Bank advocated certain things in 1952. It complained, in its own inimitable fashion, that there were too many in employment: I do not think that is an unfair paraphrase of what they said. I see that the Taoiseach smiles. I have not the report with me, but if my memory serves me correctly the Central Bank bewailed the fact that there was not a large number of unemployed in the country.

No. They did not do that.

That was my understanding of what they said.

They said that, in view of the unusually favourable condition of employment, public works could be cut down.

The inference was that too many people were in employment. They complained about certain other things also. They complained that the foodsubsidies were a burden and they advocated their withdrawal. They deplored the fact that people could get credit easily. Deputy Lemass repudiated that report. The Taoiseach said that he had no responsibility for it. The extraordinary thing, however, is that these three major factors—(1) the issue of credit facilities, (2) the withdrawal of the food subsidies and (3) the creation of unemployment—happened in 12 months. I will not say that I blame the Taoiseach for that: I will not say that I do not blame him. I will not give any opinion as far as that is concerned. What I am trying to drive home is that that little blue book, the Central Bank Report, is more important than many of us think. If it is their opinion and if they state in their report that credit should be restricted, they will make sure that it will be restricted.

And the Government are allowing them to do it.

If the issue of money is to be tightened up or if the Central Bank recommend or say that it should be tightened up, they will take steps to see that it will be tightened up. Whether or not they got the nod or the wink from the Government as far as the restriction of credit is concerned, I do not know.

You may be sure they did not.

The fact is that there has been a tightening up over the past two years. At present, it is very difficult to get a £1 on credit from the bank. Any bank manager will tell you that he got his directions from the top. Whether or not the Government or the Minister for Finance instructed the Central Bank to withhold credit or to tighten it up, I suppose we will never know.

The Deputy will get all the information he wants. The Government gave no such instructions. That is a fact.

It is rather peculiar that since April, 1952, Governmentpolicy and the recommendations of the Central Bank Report seem to be going like two greyhounds neck and neck together. Whether or not that is a coincidence, only the Taoiseach and his Cabinet know.

They set up the Central Bank.

There has been a restriction of credit. Who is to blame for that? If the banks are to blame, then has it not been bad for the country? If the banks have that power over the economy of this country and if they have the power to determine whether or not men will work, surely it is a state of affairs that ought to be changed. In such a situation. surely the Taoiseach and the Government should give close consideration to the suggestions that have often been made from this side of the House.

I was somewhat amused by Deputy Briscoe's speech this evening in view of some of the events that have taken place in the past six months. During the past two years we have tried to impress upon the Taoiseach and the Government that an extraordinary unemployment situation had arisen. Every Government speaker and every member of the Fianna Fáil Party persisted in saying all during these two years that there was not an extraordinary unemployment situation. The Minister for Social Welfare and his Parliamentary Secretary made speeches here and answered questions and sought all the time to prove that as far as unemployment was concerned the position in the past two years was far better than it was in the three years of the inter-Party Government, from 1948 to 1951.

It is true to say that because there were marches in Dublin by the unemployed some consideration was given by the Government to the unemployment question. Now we hear, not from the Taoiseach, not from the Minister for Local Government, not from the Minister for Finance, not from the Tánaiste, but from Deputy Briscoe— whether or not he has any authority to say so, I do not know—that if any public authority want to engage in public work all they need do is totell the Minister for Local Government and he will provide 80 per cent. of the cost. Deputies who were present here this evening when Deputy Briscoe was speaking heard him make that pronouncement. Whether or not it is true, we do not know. Whether they be amenity schemes, local authority schemes or other schemes, our difficulty is that months and sometimes even years elapse before we can even get a decision on them from the Department of Local Government, let alone money. This sudden suggestion of generosity from the Government or the Department of Local Government does not impress anybody on this side of the House.

Because you will not get the money.

We are now only two or three weeks away from Christmas. In Wexford, the furthest we can get now in regard to the employment of men on relief schemes is to start eight men next Thursday on the construction of a footpath. I do not know if preferential treatment is given to people in whom Deputy Briscoe is interested, but the position in my constituency is that Wexford could do with many thousands of the pounds which Deputy Briscoe says are available in the Department of Local Government.

With 67,000 unemployed persons in this country, is it not paradoxical to hear from Deputy Briscoe, and speakers on the Government side of the House, that the Government are going to insist that Dublin Corporation will spend £1,800,000 next year or in the next five years? If it is so very easy to get money from the Department of Local Government or the Department of Finance, surely we should not have 67,000 persons unemployed? Sewerage and water supply schemes, and other public works, are sent up to the Department of Local Government. Our experience is that the Department ask you so many questions and that there are so many letters and counter-letters, and letters again and more counter-letters, that many months elapse before a spade is thrust in the ground. I do not know whether ornot that is a deliberate policy which is being pursued by the Department of Local Government, but that is the effect which the policy has.

I want to repeat that there has been a very grave slowing-down in house building. That may not be as a result of specific direction. I should like to point out that the slowing-down may be as a result of administrative action or, if you prefer it, lack of administrative action. These tuppenny-halfpenny queries that come down from the Department about this, that and the other scheme are, in my opinion, only designed to delay a job so that whatever moneys are available for housing in the Department of Local Government in a particular year can gradually be shoved over until the next year.

We look forward with interest to the production of the National Development Fund Bill, and to the introductory speech by the Taoiseach or by whichever Minister is deputed to introduce it. If there is any country in western Europe which needs more development than this country, I should like to see it. The Central Bank itself complains that a lot of the moneys provided by the Government are moneys which are used in nonproductive works. It is very wrong for anybody to suggest that moneys spent by any Government, whether this Government or the previous Government, on schools, hospitals, houses, water supplies, roads, bridges or drainage, is money spent on works which could be classed as nonproductive.

These works are very essential. The provision of schools and hospitals is absolutely essential in a country which has, so to speak, been starved for years of decent schools, hospitals and other public buildings and amenities. Any money we spend on rural electrification goes towards the advancement of production in agriculture and in industry. Moneys spent on drainage are particularly productive and moneys spent by the Government in the production of turf could not be regarded by the Central Bank as moneys spent on works of an unproductive nature. I think I can safely say that, no matter to what extent the Government go toborrow money for works of this nature, they will have this Party behind it. We will take exception, as we have taken exception in the past, to the price which the Government are forced to pay for it, because we believe that only by the control of credit facilities and the price of money here can this country advance with any rapidity.

While the Taoiseach may have a lot of political questions to answer in replying to this debate, and while he may be tempted to score political points off his opponents by going back two or three years, or 20 years, he would be very well advised to deal with this money question and to deal with it exclusively. I have heard interruptions of speeches of members of this Party as to why we did not do such and such in three and a half years, but we could devote all day in Dáil Éireann to what we in the Labour Party or what Fine Gael did not do in three and a half years, and we could well list out here all the things Fianna Fáil did not do in 16 years, and all the things that Cumann na nGaedheal did not do in the ten years previously.

We should have arrived at a stage in the political life of this country at which we agree to give credit to Cumann na nGaedheal for what they did from 1922 to 1932, and I do not think it could be suggested that we went back in that period, to say the least of it. I should be prepared, as my Party are prepared, to give credit for the good things done from 1932 to 1947, and I merely ask that Fianna Fáil and those who support them, rather than sniping and attacking, should give credit for the good which was undoubtedly done in the following years. In the past two years, we as a Labour Party supported Fianna Fáil in certain of its measures, and particularly those in the field of social welware. We say that they are advances, but let us get away from the stage of going back to 1922 to 1927, and even to 1948 and 1951. Let us try to meet the situation we find ourselves confronted with at present. Let us examine it, and, as a House representative of the people of the Twenty-Six Counties, see what we can do to change that situation.

I am very glad thatDeputy Costello and Deputy Corish, on behalf of their respective Parties, raised the question of the arrest and imprisonment of Mr. Liam Kelly, the elected Member of Parliament for mid-Tyrone. I think that events in the Six Counties in the course of the last few months are of particular significance and of considerable importance to future development, not merely in the Six Counties but down here as well. For these reasons, I was extremely glad that, on behalf of the Fine Gael Party and the Labour Party, some voice of protest has been raised here.

I wonder do we appreciate fully what is happening? Do we realise that, for the first time in a period of over 20 years, a young man who has been elected by the people of his constituency has been arrested and thrown into jail for making an election speech? Possibly more important than that, do we realise that he represents a new inspiration in the Six Counties, an inspiration that refuses to lend the cloak of sanction to the continuance of Partition? I think it is important that this House should appreciate that the rise of Mr. Liam Kelly by being elected by the people of mid-Tyrone and his subsequent arrest are merely the early puffs of a new wind which is rising in the Six Counties.

I think it unfortunate that the Taoiseach did not make a clear-cut statement concerning the arrest of Mr. Liam Kelly when he was invited to do so. It would be much better had this question come before the House on the initiative of the Taoiseach himself.

There was no attempt to consult him.

I put down a question to the Taoiseach, in the first instance, in which I merely inquired whether his attention had been drawn to the arrest of Mr. Liam Kelly and whether he would consider making a statement to the House. The answer. and the only answer, he gave was in the negative. Because the Taoiseach did not make a statement on that occasion I felt it necessary to put down a motion. Had the Government given an indication of its attitude I would not have done so. I knew other memwarebers of the House, including members of the Taoiseach's own Party, would wish to have an opportunity of making their voices heard on the matter. I think it is regrettable that the Taoiseach, in introducting his Estimate, did not remedy the position then by making a statement dealing with the matter. Likewise, I think it is regrettable that the Taoiseach, knowing, as he does now, that every Party on this side of the House wishes an opportunity to discuss the matter, is not prepared to make Government time available to have this matter discussed.

As Deputy Mac Fheórais pointed out, surely this House is not so pressed for time that it could not, on an occasion of this kind, give at least two or three hours to that motion or to any motion which the Taoiseach would be prepared to sponsor himself. I think a matter of this kind should be sponsored by the Taoiseach. The Taoiseach should have been in a position to make a clear-cut statement concerning the views of the Government as to the arrest of one of the elected representatives of the Irish people.

Have we reached the stage where, through complacency, we do not care? Have we reached the stage where, through caution, we are afraid to say that we admire the courage and principles of a young Irishman who is prepared to stand up and go to jail for his convictions? Have we reached the stage when we are afraid to mention Partition in this House, or where we are afraid to applaud those who are suffering and who are prepared to fight back against Partition? If we have reached that stage, we must have travelled a very long way beyond the ideals and principles that motivated those who fought for the freedom of this country.

The Taoiseach has an opportunity, even now, of remedying the position. The Taoiseach could easily agree to make time available for the discussion of the motion which is down in my name or, if he does not like that motion, introduce a motion himself before the House to give the House anopportunity of expressing the views which I know 99 per cent. of the members of this House hold.

There is no reason why we should be ashamed of expressing our sympathy for the people of Tyrone because they have been deprived of their elected leader. There is no reason why we should be ashamed to say we admire Mr. Liam Kelly for the attitude he has adopted. I think it would be much better if expressions of sympathy of this kind came from the Government. I believe it is the Government's duty in a matter of that kind to give a lead to the country and not to have to be pushed into the position where it has to say something.

I hope the Taoiseach will, before this debate concludes or before the House rises, consider this matter. It is the desire not merely of this House but of the country generally that there should be a clear expression of opinion given by this House concerning the arrest of Mr. Liam Kelly.

As I said a few minutes ago, I think it is important that the Taoiseach and the members of this House should realise that this is no mere flash in the pan. These are merely the first puffs of a new wind, a new wind which is going to sweep through the Six Counties. We may as well face that fact and help and assist those of our countrymen in the Six counties who are trying to assert the sovereignty of the Republic there. We should not be afraid or ashamed to stand by them now. That should be done through the Leader of the Government.

We should remember, too, that this new movement, Fianna Uladh, which is starting is a movement which is pledged to the acceptance of our Constitution. Its aim is the extension of our Constitution over the whole of Ireland. That surely should be the aim of every member of this House. I felt so keenly about the matter that at one stage I intended not to deal with any other topic in speaking on this Estimate. However, there is a number of matters to which I should refer.

It is quite wrong for the Taoiseach not to give some indication as to thegeneral policy of the Government. He is the head of the Government. The debate on his Estimate is the one occasion each year upon which the country is entitled to expect some indication that the Government's policy will be given. I do not know whether the Taoiseach's silence was due to the fact that he had no policy or to certain possible differences of views within the ranks of his own Party as to the policy which should be pursued.

It is deplorable that on the one occasion in the year, when a statement of policy could be expected, we have had no statement of policy. Regarding the economic position generally, all I can say is what has been said by other speakers already on this side of the House. As I said already on the Appropriation Bill, the one recognised index as to the condition of any civilised community is the unemployment and the employment position. With over 67,000 people unemployed and 12,000 more unemployed than in 1950, we have a serious position in the country. It is a position which is not improving. It is no use the Taoiseach indulging in wishful self-deception in regard to the matter. It is a serious crisis—a crisis which results from the pursuit of the Central Bank policy by the Government. I saw the Taoiseach smiling when contradicting Deputy Mac Fheórais a few minutes ago but it is no use denying that the Government did follow the Central Bank policy.

The Central Bank advocated the removal of the food subsidies in order to reduce the purchasing power of the people. The Government did that. The Central Bank advocated increased taxation on consumer goods, again in order to reduce the consumption of the people. The Government did that. The Central Bank advocated rigorous credit restrictions and, in my view, the Government did that.

You will probably not find a written order from the Government to the banks telling them they must reduce credits, but the Taoiseach will remember that some 18 months ago I drew attention to a report drawn up by the O.E.E.C. on the basis of informationsent by the Department of Finance concerning the restriction of credits. It is quite clear from that report that it was the Government's policy to restrict credits, unless the Department of Finance was speaking in a voice which did not reflect the Government's policy. Presumably, the Department of Finance, which deals with the question of credit restrictions was speaking with the voice of the Government. If not, the Minister for Finance should be removed. The Taoiseach will remember that I drew his attention to that Department of Finance memorandum about restriction of credit. At the time he said he had not seen it, that he was not aware of its existence. I quoted it for him in this House—he was just back from his illness abroad. I assumed he would take some steps to remedy the position, but we have had no indications from the Government that they have a desire to see any relaxation in the restriction of credit. The only indication we had was from the Minister for Lands the other day at the bankers' dinner, where he deputised for the Minister for Finance. The Minister for Lands was most careful in his choice of words, and I think we may take it—I am not saying this in derogation of the Minister for Lands—that his speech was carefully written in advance and supplied to the papers. The only relaxation of credit suggested in that speech was the relaxation of credit by the bankers as far as the Government was concerned. Even yet we have no categorical indication from the Government that it is their wish to see credit restriction relaxed.

The fourth thing which the Central Bank advocated was the creation of unemployment. Here again the Taoiseach was inclined to contradict Deputy Corish when he mentioned that a few minutes ago. It is true the Central Bank did not say in so many words: "We advocate you should create unemployment" but what they said was this, that "in view of the unusually favourable conditions of employment" public works could be cut down; that was saying bluntly "in view of the unusually favourable conditions of employment" we should create unemployment, and that hasbeen done; we have created unemployment.

If the aim of the Government's policy was to create unemployment they certainly have succeeded. If the aim of the Government's policy was to reduce the value of real wages they certainly have succeeded.

The country is entitled to some indication from the Government as to what the Government's policy is in regard to these famous sterling assets. The Taoiseach and myself have had a long-range controversy at by-election times in Wicklow and South Galway about these famous sterling assets. The Taoiseach told us in Wicklow and Galway that they had reached a dangerously low level. We could not afford to spend any more sterling assets. We were told a very short time afterwards by the Minister for Industry and Commerce that we should use the sterling assets. What is the Government's policy? Is it the Govment's policy to keep on accumulating sterling assets and let our money waste away or is it the Government's policy to utilise them?

As the Taoiseach was at his tea this evening, I do not think he heard Deputy Briscoe's suggestion—it might surprise the Taoiseach to learn, if he has not already heard it—that the Government might well use the moneys of the Central Bank instead of investing them in British securities at 1 per cent. or 1½ per cent. interest. He declared that the time has been reached when our Government should be able to borrow that money and I cannot allow this occasion to pass without congratulating Deputy Briscoe on his conversion. It is not so very long ago since I was savaged by Deputy Briscoe and other Deputies for suggesting that. But is that the Government's policy or is it not? If it is the Government's policy I think the Government will receive the support of certainly 75 per cent. of the House, probably 100 per cent., in any measure it takes in that direction. It is a perfectly fantastic position, that we should lend money to the British Government at 1 per cent. or 1½ per cent. interest while we borrow at 5 per cent.

The only thing that worries me about the belated conversion that seems to have taken place is that it was brought about by the force of circumstances rather than by conviction. I would much rather see the Taoiseach adopting a policy of this kind because he believed in it. I am afraid at the moment it looks a little bit as if it is being adopted because he feels we need money: "We cannot float another loan; the banks are sticky and will not give us the money; therefore let us dip into the sterling assets." I do not disagree with that at all but I would prefer to feel the matter was being approached objectively on its merits. I would like to see the whole question examined on a non-Party basis, either by a committee of the House or by a committee of experts to examine the changes which are so urgently required in our whole financial system.

It is quite clear that both the Currency Act of 1927, and the Central Bank Acts which have been passed since, need revision in more ways than one. The investment of money here and the lending of it by the Central Bank to the Government, I think can be done without any amending legislation. I would like to see a matter of that kind approached objectively on a non-Party basis rather than becoming another football in a political field. I certainly would like to congratulate Deputy Briscoe and some other members of Fianna Fáil for their conversion, even if it is a belated one. It is a step forward. I seem to have been fighting a very lonely battle on this question a few years ago. I seem to have got quite a number of converts since then, from both sides of the House. Let us hope the Government will now take it up and have the whole position examined from top to bottom in consultation with the other Parties in the House.

There has been a great deal of talk about relief schemes and also about this new development fund which has been referred to by the Taoiseach. We do not yet know exactly the purpose of this fund or the manner in which it will be administered but what did occur to me was this: if it is another one of these paradoxical matters that seem to occur so frequently in the Government'spolicy, why is there such a blowing of trumpets about the development fund while at the same time the Government is strangling the Local Authorities (Works) Act? It probably was one of the best Acts ever introduced in this House from the point of view of providing employment on works of a useful nature. Why was the amount of money for that Act so systematically turned off by the Government since it resumed office? Was it merely out of prejudice, because this was an Act which had been introduced by the inter-Party Government? It was generally recognised by all local authorities as being one of the most useful pieces of local government legislation that had ever been introduced.

Why, too, should not more money be made available for forestry? If we have money to spend on development —I am very glad that the Government are spending money on development and the more money they spend on it the happier I shall be—why not spend more on forestry. It seems to me that forestry is one of the best capital development projects that we could have. On the basis of the expenditure already undertaken in forestry work in the course of the last 30 years, scrappy and all as it was, I think forestry shows a handsome return, and will continue to show an increasing return. Of all raw materials, the price of timber has increased at a much higher ratio than the price of any other raw material. We have the land, we have the people to plant it and we have the money. Would it not be a wonderful capital investment project? I would urge on the Taoiseach to consider this seriously. I do not think it is a matter that should form part of political controversy. It is one on which there is, I think, general agreement.

I know, of course, that all kinds of excuses can be put up as to why forestry has not been pushed ahead at a better rate, but I must say that I have never yet, either from within or without a Government, heard one satisfactory explanation as to the lack of progress that has been made inforestry. The Minister for Lands is here. I may say that I am not blaming him, but by and large, I think that our Forestry Department in its early stages approached the matter in a rather scrappy way, and that, being attached to the Department of Lands, it was the Cinderella of that Department. The Department of Finance, in consequence, had very little trouble in brushing aside any claims which were made for more money for the Department of Forestry. That is why, in my opinion, the Department of Forestry should be cut away from the Department of Lands and should be set up as a Department with the Gaeltacht Services. The Forestry Department is certainly not benefiting by the present arrangement. I think that forestry and the Gaeltacht Services could form one compact Department, and in that way could deal with many problems around the western seaboard.

I do not want anything that I have said to the Taoiseach to be taken as criticism of any other scheme of national development that he has in mind, but I think that, before indulging in, possibly, more speculative schemes of national development, he should consider whether something more could not be done in regard to forestry, and also whether the pursestrings should not be loosened in regard to the Local Authorities (Works) Act.

A matter which, I think, I mentioned before to the Taoiseach and one which is well worth examining, is the labour content of public works. What, for example, is the labour content of road making, of main, trunk and county roads? I saw some estimates that were prepared before on that question and, speaking from recollection, I think that the labour content of road making is extremely small, particularly in regard to the big main trunk roads. A very large percentage of the total outlay is spent on machinery, tar and matters of that kind. I do know that the labour content of forestry is the highest of all the different types of public works undertaken. If that is not so, the Minister for Lands will correct me. I do think, however, that I am correct in saying that 80 percent. of the total amount spent on forestry goes in wages, and that 20 per cent. goes on materials of one kind or another. If I am not mistaken, I think that 80 per cent. of a labour content is the highest labour content in any public works. Inasmuch as many of the schemes which the Government are interested in at the present time are relief schemes, I think it would be desirable to have examined the question of labour content of all such schemes.

I would like to make one final appeal to the Taoiseach in regard to the question of the bank rate. I do not know whether he saw in the newspapers, within the last few days, a most interesting letter from Dr. Batterberry, who is a member of the Dublin Corporation, in which he pointed out that a four-roomed house which, in Dublin, costs the corporation £1,660 to build, ultimately, by reason of interest rates, costs £4,648. The house costs £1,660 to build, but by the time the banks have got their whack out of it, the corporation and the unfortunate tenant or owner have to pay £4,648. Surely there is something wrong there, and surely that is one of the matters that should be examined. That is why I have felt so keenly that the Government should not have so willingly allowed the bank rate to be increased.

When the bank rate was reduced in England, the Government should have taken steps to ensure that the bank rate would be reduced here, at least to the same ratio as had prevailed before. If it becomes necessary to prevent the outflow of capital from the country, I see no reason why we should not do it by legislation of the kind that exists in every other country in the world practically. I do not think there would be any great outflow of capital from the country if the bank rate here were kept at the same level, or even slightly higher than the English bank rate. Certainly, I think the Taoiseach must admit that when you reach the position where a £1,600 house costs you £4,648 by reason of profiteering— because that is what it amount to on the part of the banks—the time has come when some drastic action must be taken.

In listening to the comments of the speakers on the opposite side of the House in the course of this debate, it seemed to me to be largely repetition of the debate which followed the introduction of the Budget of 1952. Fine Gael seem to be going in the direction that they have no more respect for their conservative wing; that that conservative wing is latched on to them for life and that they can say or do anything they like to get the support of what they think is the Left wing of this House. They are going to great lengths indeed to point out that this Government, which has responsibility for the housekeeping of this country, is trying to cut down on expenditure, thereby depriving people of employment. I think that all the publications from the various State Departments, from the Central Statistics Office, and the various trade journals will contradict more effectively than I can, the arguments put forward here to-day.

All these statistics show that the national income has gone up, that agricultural output has expanded and that there are more people employed to-day in industry than there have been since this State was founded. The success of the two recent National Loans denotes that the people who are inclined to invest money in this country have confidence in the Government to the extent that they were prepared to lend the Government £45,000,000 inside two years for the capital side of their programme. That is more than can be said of the people's attitude towards the Coalition Government when it was in power.

It has been said that the cost of living has increased in this country in the last two years. That is quite true. Nobody is denying that fact, but in saying that, the Opposition conveniently forget that if the cost of living has increased, wage rates have increased considerably, too. Some of them ascribe the increase in the cost of living to Government policy. They say that import prices have fallen by 9 per cent. since 1951 and that the cost of living should have fallen accordingly, and that the decrease in import prices should have reflected itself in the retail prices inside our economy.

On a point of order. I want to draw attention to this very important matter, the matter of privilege in this House. I would like to say that since the debate started here this evening two members of the Fianna Fáil Party have been allowed to speak, a member of the Labour Party, a member of the Fine Gael Party and a member of Clann na Poblachta. During the course of that debate I offered, and showed myself as a speaker, as I was anxious to say a word as an Independent member, and I have not been called. I wish to protest very strongly as an Independent Deputy at the lack of appreciation towards the Independent Benches.

The matter to which the Deputy refers is one within the discretion of the Chair and the Deputy will be called in due course. It is customary to call leaders of Parties to speak in dealing with a debate of this kind, and the Deputy will be reached in due course.

Without criticising Deputy Carter in any way, it is not suggested that Deputy Carter is the leader of the Fianna Fáil Party. Deputy Briscoe has spoken in that Party, and the Taoiseach opened the debate for the Fianna Fáil Party so that there can be no suggestion that it is leaders of Parties only who are speaking. I think if we are going to have fair play in this House, the speakers from among the Independent Deputies must be allowed to have their say.

There cannot be any discussion on this matter.

I want to inform the Leas-Cheann Comhairle that this matter will be raised elsewhere.

The Deputy may do that.

I might be entitled to point out that I offered to speak as a member of the Clann na Talmhan Party and although I was not called, I have not protested.

Various Parties have been called to speak with the result that so far as the debate has gone, the Government speakers have occupied one hour and 25 minutes so that the Opposition Parties have no complaint.

I am not complaining on behalf of the Opposition. I am speaking as an Independent Deputy.

The Deputy will resume his seat. Deputy Carter.

It is apparent to me that all the Parties in this House will have time to express their views on the Taoiseach's Estimate and I hope when they are expressing them that they will give a little more fair play than the people who have spoken.

I was trying to deal with some of the suggestions made regarding the cost of living and how conveniently some of the speakers ignored the fact that wages both in agriculture and in industry have risen considerably since 1951 and the fact that increased prices obtainable for agricultural produce within the economy have a more direct bearing on the cost of living than import prices. The fact that the Fianna Fáil Government guaranteed an increased price for wheat, milk and beet certainly would reflect itself in increased retail prices. The Opposition seemed to buttress their argument on the basis that if the Fianna Fáil Government guarantee a price to the farmers they can at the same time raise a subsidy by some other tax on the taxpayers in order to cheapen that price to the consumers in general. That argument is not valid. Regarding development—it is a well-known fact that since Fianna Fáil first assumed office in 1932 they have gone ahead with their programme of capital development. Immediately on resuming office in 1951 they advised the sugar company and the cement company to expand in order to provide employment and at the same time cut down on the imports of these commodities.

I think it must be agreed that the Government has implemented a veryprogressive programme in relation to Bord na Móna. That applies also to rural electrification and the E.S.B. in general. That policy does not denote any restriction in credit or any intention to cut down on employment. The fact that agricultural exports have risen and the national income has increased indicates the increased prosperity of the country despite what members of the Opposition state to the contrary. Members of the Opposition are endeavouring to suggest as usual that by some action the Government could bring down retail prices, some action other than subsidies, so to speak. At the end of last year and early this year we had brought the Opposition Parties to the point that they did not approve of subsidies and I did not hear subsidies mentioned to-day in the course of this debate.

It was alleged that the withdrawal of subsidies was one of the planks in our political platform. It is true that subsidies were partially withdrawn. We must never forget that at the moment we are paying over £5,700,000 in subsidies on bread alone. It was suggested in the debate on the Supplies and Services Bill, and again to-day, that following the withdrawal of subsidies the price of sugar went up. That is not correct. As a matter of fact, there has been no subsidy on sugar since 1949. Owing to the operation of the differential the price of sugar in 1949 averaged 6d. per lb. The two-price system was in operation and therefore the withdrawal of the subsidy did not affect the price of sugar in the slightest degree.

The fact that the Government were able to raise £45,000,000 for the capital development side of their programme denotes that work was progressing in the right direction. It also shows that there is no lack of confidence in the Government and that employment is running at a high level. There is no use in the Opposition trying to shed responsibility for unemployment, because unemployment was running at as high a level during their term of office as it is at the moment. The facts and figures are there and they cannot be controverted.

I do not think that any Deputy would advance the argument in relation to retail prices that the farmer should receive a lower price for his milk or that he should produce a cheaper barrel of wheat, barley or oats or a cheaper acre of beet. I can see no way of tackling the increase in the cost of living, then, except by breaking the price the farmer receives and doing, as Deputy Dillon has suggested on various occasions, namely, importing wheat from Canada and sugar from somewhere else. If that is done the factories and the mills will have to close down. Where is the advantage in that if the people who are at present employed in these industries find themselves out of work? In the long run, that can only have the effect of driving up the unemployment figure. It is, therefore, hardly valid to suggest that we are the wicked bogeymen that the Opposition tries to pretend we are.

I am sure all of use would like to see employment running at as high a rate as possible. We would all like to see the retailer and the farmer doing equally well, both working in unison. But that is not always possible and the action that any Government can take in relation to retail prices is a very limited action indeed. We have a free economy here and the longer it remains free the better it will be. The fact is that the people who are advocating that the Government should take over the banking system and interfere in business are the very people on whose toes we would tread if we adopted their suggestions. If they believe in private enterprise and in competition they must know that there is no element that can be introduced in any price in a system of free competition to maintain a particular price level.

The only element that can be introduced in order to reduce prices is the element of subsidy and in the long run the price under a system of subsidisation may turn out to be a dearer price than the original. The Minister for Industry and Commerce has explained that the implementation of a subsidy entails extra administration and achieves nothing in the long run. Asubsidy may be all right in time of war. A subsidy may be altogether wrong in normal peace time conditions.

It has been forgotten in the course of this debate that the money saved by the partial withdrawal of subsidies has been paid back to the people by way of increased social welfare. The extensions in social welfare involve a sum of something around £7,000,000. That is much more than the sum saved by the partial withdrawal of subsidies. Agricultural output has increased. So has the national income and the situation cannot therefore be so black as the Opposition paints it. The Government will always have certain difficulties to face and certain problems to solve. The more prosperous the man on the land becomes the greater the danger of unemployment on the land because the more mechanised agriculture becomes the less employment there will be on the land.

A farmer who is able to purchase equipment, such as a manure distributor, may be able to dispense with an employee. We have always had that problem to contend with. The Government make no bones about the fact that there is a problem. They are coming to grips with that problem. Fianna Fáil have shown that they have the happy knack of turning hard circumstances to good account. They have amply demonstrated that over the last 20 years. It is not by bewailing the cost of living, unemployment, high prices or other circumstances that the problem will be solved. We must get to grips with it. In my opinion, the Government have been effectively coming to grips with this problem by their capital Budget this year and last year and also by the introduction of the development fund. The development fund seems to be exercising the mind of the Opposition. They do not seem to like it. It is a sign of the times, a sign that following the disaster of 1951 the country is again moving in the right direction, and is now in the position that it can devote £1,500,000 for this purpose. I welcome the establishment of the development fund.

I do not regard road-making as a relief scheme. I do not regard thespecial employments schemes as relief work but as work of national importances. There is no truth in the suggestion made to-day that the £1,500,000 that the Government are devoting to the development fund is a sop thrown out on the eve of a general election.

It is a great wonder that the conservative element in Fine Gael would not question the members of their Party more closely as to their economic policy. Their spokesman in the Seanad said that there is too much credit available while the responsible leader of the Party in this House said to-day that there is restriction of credit. I cannot reconcile the two statements. Senator Professor George O'Brien must be wrong in the Seanad or Deputy J.A. Costello must be wrong in this House. I am not an economist. Neither am I, as Deputy McQuillan decribed me, a leader of a Party. I would like someone to clear away the smoke. It is very popular for a member of the Opposition to advocate the setting up of a commission to inquire into emigration, the setting up of a commission to inquire into retail prices, the establishment of a body to fix prices. That is popular from the point of view of vote-catching but it does not always work out in practice because, in practice, these things must be related to facts. An ugly fact can always slay the most beautiful hypothesis. Fine Gael have a considerable conservative following. I do not know how they will reconcile the arguments they have adduced. They will be very skilful if they can get away with it.

I welcome the speech made by the acting-Minister for Finance at the bankers' dinner. It showed the Government's realisation of the problem that exists and that they are effectively coming to grips with it. The Government have established a development fund which the Opposition dub a relief scheme. I do not accept that argument. It is not a measurable argument. The allocation of £1,000,000 for the making of main and county roads and of £500,000 for the making of accommodation and country roads is not a relief scheme.

Why not say that if we want tobring down the cost of living we should import wheat, pay less for milk, let sugar go unguaranteed and seek cheaper foodstuffs abroad? Why not come out in the open and say that, because that is what is meant when Deputies say that we can do something about the cost of living. That is what they really mean. Deputies opposite alleged that we could do something to stop money going out of the country, that we could tamper with the savings of the people. Deputy MacBride advanced that argument. In my opinion the people of this country are quite capable of looking after their own savings. They have done it in the past, in times of stress and of greater upheaval than the present. They have done it successfully. The thrifty amongst them always knew where to invest their money.

I do not think that interference by this House would solve the problem of money or credit. As far as I can see there is no restriction of credit, and there is no recession in trade, because if any Deputy in this House went down the city yesterday he would find that several departmental store managers said that it was one of the best days that they had had in years—that yesterday was more like Christmas Eve, actually, than an ordinary holiday.

We would want Christmas Eve every day.

I do not think, Deputy Hickey, you will get it the way you are talking.

Mr. A. Byrne

Yesterday was a very special day.

It has been advocated in this House so often that the repetition becomes tiresome what this House could do about money. I think it can do absolutely nothing about it, only leave it to the people who are competent to deal with it.

God help the poor country after that!

Yes, it is a free economy, as I said. Every man is entitled to invest his money where he likes, notwhere Deputy Hickey wants him to put it. I asked you before, when you were advocating in this House that we should pick five men from each side of the House who would control the money of the Government of this country, for a loan of a £5 note and you were reluctant to give it to me.

It is the Minister you should appeal to, not Deputy Hickey.

Sorry, I will ask you again. You might be a better mark.

That is a helpful, constructive remark.

Well, charity begins at home. That is my argument.

I cannot admire your innocence, though.

Sorry, Deputy, but charity begins at home, and if you were advocating that money and credit should be under the control of this House I do not see why we should not have a fellowship and borrow from each other—lend and borrow from each other whenever necessary. We could only show the rest of the country by example that that was the best way to regulate and control money and credit. That is the only solution I can think of. It is a fairly practical one, but it might be too practical for the Deputy.

I am afraid——

Would the Deputy reserve it for his own statement?

Especially if I was not a good mark. But I think it is all too childish altogether in 1953. We have had the example of Britain, that tried to nationalise industry and tried to a certain extent to control credit, and you can see to-day that five or six years afterwards they are making frantic efforts to decontrol it and put it in the hands of private enterprise again.

A conservative Government is in power.

Yes, and if Labour were there they would ensure that they would be defeated so that they would not have the distasteful task of doing it. I say that with conviction, because Labour have a lot of pretty theories that they cannot put into practice. That is my argument. I have as much regard for Labour as any Deputy in this House, and I think any labouring man in my constituency will bear testimony to that, but I do not like false prophets or false promises.

Certainly Fine Gael is full of them, and the people who believe them are as shallow as the Fine Gael promises.

Surely the Taoiseach is not responsible for all this.

No, a Cheann Comhairle, but by the conversation here to-day you would imagine he was. That is what I am trying to prove, that he is not responsible for it. I think that the prosperity of this country is bound up in the type of policy that is being pursued at present, and any departure from it, any tampering with the credit or solvency of its people will not succeed, because the people outside are watching and they are reading and also writing, and they know where to invest their money, any of them who have a surplus of money, where it will get them the best return and the greatest security.

We always had a problem—it is not to-day or yesterday we were faced with it—of a high emigration rate. That problem existed when the other Government were in power, and it is hardly fair to try to hang that around the neck of the present Government. Deputy Corish struck a realistic note when he referred to exports of agricultural produce. I am inclined to concur with him there and to say that we will have a difficulty in a year's time in exporting our agricultural produce because we shall then be on the basis of competition alone and will be in competition with very shrewd and very well-managed economies abroad. As amatter of fact, I just want to mention one thing which I have been informed has been happening since Eggsport were dissolved. They are handling the trade this Christmas, but it has been alleged to me that certain agents are buying turkeys and throwing them in a heap without hanging them, and they are being rejected abroad. That is a bad thing, and I should like that the Department, if they have any knowledge of that, would inquire into it, because it is one of the things that could damage us in the market in Britain next year.

The handling of our turkeys and the way they are presented to the consumer abroad, as well as the handling of other foodstuffs which we may be exporting, will certainly count in future, and production at home is no use if it is not handled properly and presented to the consumer in an edible fashion.

I want to say with regard to housing, the subject which has been mentioned here, that naturally enough there would be a certain falling-off in housing. I think 51 or 52 of the local authorities have finished their housing programmes in various country towns, and that would suggest, then, that the spurt that obtained a year ago or two years ago would not obtain at the present time or could not obtain, because, first and foremost, the demand would not be there, and most country towns are complete as regards housing. If they are, then the Government have other ideas in view. They are turning to the bridges and the roads. That does not denote that they are turning a blind eye to unemployment. Certainly there is no suggestion that we have restricted any of the capital projects that I mentioned. It cannot be proved for a moment either in fact or in theory. Employment in industry and agriculture are running at a high rate, and if we are able to continue to preserve that and to increase it, then it will be an encouragement to the people to invest in their own country. We are not going abroad looking for loans. We are asking the money from our own people and guaranteeing them a decent return on it. I do not see anything wrong inthat. I do not see anything wrong if a man has £100 to invest in this own country and you pay him £4 10s. as a return for that £100 and guarantee him against depreciation. I think it is better than paying £4 10s. to a foreigner.

That is good conservative policy.

Well, I think it would be much better than to go out and take it, because if you took £100 from him he certainly will bury the next. He would not give it to you. You can call it what you like. I think it is practical business.

Did you hear Deputy Lehane saying that we were all going too much to the Left?

Let us go Left or Right, I think we should be straightforward in a matter of business. I am sure that the Deputy would be the first to agree with that. I do not think he really means some of the things he says in regard to money and credit.

I do not know whether Deputy Carter is a married man, but if he is I think if he tells his wife that the withdrawal of the subsidies did not make any difference in the price of sugar, she will not agree with him. I want to say, in common with other speakers on this side of the House, that I regret that the Taoiseach adopted the procedure which he followed in the introduction of the Estimate. I will concede to the Taoiseach that what he stated in regard to one matter is correct; I do not think that the procedure that existed formerly of requesting heads of Parties to submit to the Taoiseach in advance notice of the topics which they wished to discuss proved a great success, because in many instances these topics were never adhered to. Nevertheless, on this occasion it is particularly regrettable that the Taoiseach did not give some indication of future Government policy. I say it is particularly regrettable on this occasion, in view of the speech which was delivered this evening by DeputyBriscoe, who did give some indication, if it be a reliable one, of what the Government proposes to do. I think the House would expect, and were entitled to expect, from the Taoiseach some suggestions as how it is proposed to expend this national development fund.

I want to make it clear that as far as I and my Party are concerned we do not brand this type of expenditure as relief because I would be very inconsistent if I adopted any such attitude. I am sure I have bored many members of the House with my references to the Local Authorities (Works) Act. There was scarcely any occasion on which I spoke that I did not refer to that Act. I always believed, and I still believe, that it was the finest piece of native legislation we have yet had in this country, that it was an Act, if it were continued in operation as long as necessary, that would confer untold financial benefits on this country. If it is now proposed to make money available under the National Development Fund Bill to local authorities to carry on that work, I welcome that proposal because the great crying need of this country is increased production, whether it be industrial production or agricultural production.

I think it is now admitted on all sides of the House that we must base our future hopes on the development and intensification of agricultural production and there is no use in attempting to expand agricultural production until you first drain the land. Before I ever came into this House I always held, and I shall always hold, that any money spent on the drainage of the land of this country is a wise investment and will pay good dividends. Following upon that, you must fertilise the land. For years and years, even before there was ever compulsory tillage in this country, the land was not in a condition to produce the maximum amount it was capable of producing. I do submit that with a proper drainage system and the maximum application of fertilisers—and I do not think I am exaggerating—you could expand production by almost 50 per cent. In another place and onanother occasion, in this connection I said 35 per cent. but I believe I was being conservative in that estimate because we all see pockets throughout the country where the people have reclaimed land by drainage, and where, by the application of fertilisers, in cases where they could afford it, production has been considerably increased, in many cases by 50 per cent. If I could believe that the Government would devote some of this money under the National Development Fund Bill to providing cheaper fertilisers for the farmers and a good system of drainage, I would feel sure that the Government was then on the road towards expanding agricultural production.

I am convinced that a necessary corollary to agricultural expansion will be industrial expansion. I do believe that if you have an impoverished agriculture, you have no business talking of industrial development. I often think that it was a pity that between the years 1932 and 1947 the Fianna Fáil Organisation or Party had not a man to take charge of the Department of Agriculture with the push, energy and initiative of the man who commanded the Department of Industry and Commerce. If they had, I believe that he would have made a good job of this country. It was regrettable, I think, that they never succeeded in putting in charge of the most important portfolio in the country a man who would put—I am not saying this to the disparagement or disrespect in any degree of the men who held that office—the push and the energy into the Department of Agriculture which the man in charge of Industry and Commerce brought to bear on the administration of his Department. I was often under the impression that Fianna Fáil disregarded agriculture as an important branch of our economic life. I hope now that they have altered that frame of mind, if they ever possessed it, and that we shall see in the new year a change in regard to the most important factor in our whole economic life.

There is one other aspect of increased agricultural production to which I should like to refer. I amglad that the Minister for Lands is listening, because I believe he and his Department can play a very important part in it. I refer to the speeding up of the division of land in this country. When is this work going to be completed? We have been dallying with it for 30 years, and I doubt if we are now much nearer to a solution. I know that the Minister can quote statistics or figures to show the amount of land that is being divided, but the way in which the Land Commission acted in this matter is deplorable. Every year we are losing the best young farmers that any country could possess, simply because the Land Commission will not give them land. I know it is possible that I shall be told that this Government, when in office before, had a policy of providing land for landless men, and I am quite prepared to admit that this policy, in the manner in which it was operated, was not a success. I have said here before, and I say now, that the best type amongst those who emigrate from this country is the farmer's son, who has spent all his life on the land but who, because his brother must inherit the place and he has not got a holding for himself, must go across the sea.

If the Land Commission would provide that man with a holding of land he would be a national asset; he would marry and found a family and our economy would improve. These are the type of emigrants whom I reget to see leaving this country and whom the Minister for Lands would keep at home if he would move the Land Commission into action and ask them to do something with regard to the settlement of that long-standing problem. I must confess that I do not understand the Land Commission.

Are we discussing the Land Commission?

It is a form of Government policy and it comes under the Taoiseach's Estimate. I do not want to discuss it in detail.

Not exactly. It is an element in the economy of the country.

In my opinion, it is a very important one. I do not want to go into detail, but I think the Minister for Lands should examine what they are doing and try to make them do something more, because I have come across recent examples where they moved to acquire land and, even though the price had been fixed by the tribunal, they decided that they would withdraw the proceedings and abandon the whole thing.

Forestry also has been referred to, and that is certainly one way in which we can solve some of our unemployment problem. But I do not think that any Government in this country is going to give serious thought to forestry, because, unfortunately, Governments are composed of politicians, and forestry is a long-term project and, therefore, would not serve the ends of politicians. In remote western districts it certainly would help to provide very much-needed employment and it would, of course, after the lapse of 25 or 30 years, prove a great financial benefit to the country.

There has been a lot of talk about credit and credit restriction, but I do not propose to deal very much with it. I would say, however, that there are occasions when it would be prudent to restrict credit, and there are occasions in which it would be prudent to extend credit, all depending entirely on the nature of the investment. For instance, I do not think it would be a good thing to extend credit to a man who would fritter it away on the racecourse or the dog track. I think you would be acting in his own interests if you refused him credit. I do not think it is a good thing that banks, as they appear ready to do, should extend credit for the erection of dance halls, which is about the easiest form of getting credit to-day, while on the other hand they refuse credit to a man to buy a farm or to erect a house. I say you must have restriction of credit where a citizen does not deserve it or where he is embarking on a project that is not a deserving one or nationally sound. But where he is embarking on a programme which will be of benefit to the nation and would help the nation socially, he is entitled to credit. I do not think youshould make the sweeping statement that we should restrict credit or we should not restrict credit. You must examine what the credit is required for.

I want to say in fairness to the Government and to the Central Bank that there is one particular aspect of our economy in regard to which credit should be restricted and that is the hire-purchase system. It could land this country into a very dangerous position. I think that the Central Bank was perfectly sound and sane in suggesting that we should have less hire-purchase credit. It is a thing which could land the country into a very serious position. On the other hand, I think the restriction of credit so far as it applied to housing was undesirable, although I would be prepared to say that it was a matter on which a serious business eye should be kept because it might easily go too far. To begin with, it was providing a very necessary social amenity and useful employment and, until it had got to a far more advanced stage than it did, it was undesirable to restrict credit in the building trade. I offer these few remarks in good faith and not in a spirit of criticism. I think it would have helped the debate very much if the Taoiseach had indicated in advance in what way it was proposed to expend the money from the National Development Fund.

I want to follow the example which has been given by other members on this side of the House in the remarks they made in connection with the imprisonment of Mr. Liam Kelly. It is a matter on which I do not feel very competent to speak, but I do think it would be very desirable that a unanimous protest—not a protest coming from any one particular individual or any one political Party—from this House should be sent both to the British Premier and to the people in Belfast. I think it is right to say that there is a new departure in the Six Counties to which we should wish success. There is no man who does not wish to see the country reunited. I agree, and I think it would be the view of the Taoiseach, that we do not hope to achieve much by such a protest, butI think it would encourage Mr. Kelly and those people associated with him to know that we in the National Assembly of the Twenty-Six Counties share their views and aspirations and are behind them morally, if not physically.

Judging by the tone of the official Opposition speeches, after the wails and the moans that we heard about six months ago, there seems to be an enormous change. I should like to deal with one matter before Deputy Finan leaves the House. He accused the Fianna Fáil Executive Council of disregarding agriculture. He gave us an instance that they had not put into the Department of Agriculture as good a man as was put into the Department of Industry and Commerce and stated that, on account of that, agriculture had lagged behind in this country. Deputy Finan was, I think, a supporter of the inter-Party Government. If he was not here at that time, he came into this House as a supporter of the policy of that Party. Therefore I say he was one of those who was responsible for inflicting the previous Minister for Agriculture on the people of this country.

I would not make any apology for that.

Probably you would not. Deputy Finan comes in here representing small tillage farmers and working farmers mainly. A man representing that class of people comes in here and takes a part in putting into office and in charge of agriculture the man who said the proper thing for the beet industry was to blow up the factories, that wheat was going up the spout after the peat and beet, and God speed the day. Deputy Finan takes part in putting that individual in charge of agriculture for three and a half years.

He made a better job of it than ever you did.

If the Deputy will wait, I will give him the results and there is no difficulty in finding them.

I do not see how it arises on this Vote. This is an over-all policy of the Government.

It is my intention to make a comparison between that policy and the policy of the Government's predecessors.

The Deputy should distinguish between departmental policy and the over-all policy of the Government.

I intend to deal with the over-all policy as it was—I take it there was collective responsibility— that drove 52,000 young men in three and a half years off the land. It was the policy that offered the agricultural community, at a time of rising prices, rising costs of labour and other things, 1/- a gallon for their milk.

That is departmental policy. The Deputy must understand that 1/- a gallon for milk is departmental policy.

That was departmental policy and executive policy.

It is departmental policy. That was the policy of the Minister for Agriculture, not the over-all policy of the Government or the Taoiseach.

So the rest of the boys want to wash their hands like Pontius Pilate, and say: "I am not responsible for Jamesie."

The Deputy must not make a joke of it or misconstrue what I am saying.

Let us examine the agricultural position to-day and compare it with that period. Let us take any item and see where it brings us. Let us take agricultural exports. I remember the wails and moans we used to hear over there, but they disappeared very largely during the last four or five months. Our total live-stock exports amounted to £19,930,000 for the first nine months of 1951. I compare that with the first nine months of this year, in which our live-stock exports brought us in £25,000,000—an increase of £6,000,000 on live-stock exports alone. Foodstuffs of animal origin, class II, brought us in in 1951 £21,125,000 and this year £43,530,000. Our total exports in those two classes for the first nine months of 1951 were £41,055,000 as against £68,602,000 for the first nine months of this year, an increase of £27,500,000 in the value of our agricultural exports in those two items alone. Then we are told that Fianna Fáil were lacking in the Minister they put in charge of agriculture. I think that is an answer in itself.

If you go further into these figures, you will find one rather extraordinary increase, that is in regard to chocolate crumb, chocolates and sweets. The total value of our exports in that item in 1951 was less than £3,000,000. For the first nine months of this year it was £14,000,000. Those are figures which show the way the country is going. I heard statements from all sides of the House that those in agriculture were not pulling their weight in the increased production drive. The total value of our domestic exports for the first nine months of 1953 was £82,048,000 as compared with £51,443,000 in the first nine months of 1951, an increase of £30,500,000. Of that £30,500,000 the agricultural community have contributed £27,500,000. Those are facts that cannot be denied and that any Deputy can get for himself by spending half an hour in the Library. Those facts speak for themselves.

The last year you had an inter-Party Government here there was a reduction of 84,000 acres in wheat. That was £2,000,000 gone out of the farmer's pocket. This year there is an increase of 98,000 as compared with last year. That is £3,000,000 less to be paid to the foreigner for bread to feed our people that are left here at home. That is the difference between the policy of our Minister for Agriculture and the other one that was inflicted on us here for three and a half years. There is an increase this year of 11,000 acres of beet, which means £2,000,000 to the farmer alone. It is 112,000 tons of freight extra to be carried by thelorryman and C.I.E., at an average of £1 a ton, making £112,000 more for freight. What is the extra amount it will give in labour, in the factories, to the workers? Those are the things that count. I have heard from all sides of the House that if the agricultural population are all right, everybody is all right. That is the picture of the agricultural population to-day. Compare that with the "back to grass" policy that was pursued here for three and a half years with the full connivance and assistance of the Clann na Talmhan Party and the Labour Party.

And Deputy Moylan.

I am quoting Deputy Corish.

What did Deputy Moylan say last week about it?

He was not a member of the Government.

He said it was good policy.

I am giving the policy as it is now and the result of it. I am not twisting what anybody said. I know he added that in——

It was reported in the newspaper.

I have given the House the facts and Deputies would be wise to study them. Nobody will pretend to me that an increase in tillage of 100,000 acres of land under the plough will not mean increased employment all round. By our increased production of sugar, we have saved the £3,000,000 odd, which Deputy James Dillon paid to foreigners for sugar in his last year of office. We have done more than that. Practically all of the sugar we produce to-day in excess of our home requirements is exported in the shape of chocolate crumb, chocolates and sweets and its value for the first nine months of this year is £14,000,000. That is a different picture from the picture that Deputies hoped to be able to draw here some four months ago. It is a different aspect to agriculture. At the moment, we are not able to give the results of the last portion of thispolicy. It is only now that the extra 11,000 acres of beet are going into the factories. Next year, we will have the result of that. During the next 12 months we will know the saving effected by 98,000 extra acres of wheat that have been grown as a result of getting rid of the Minister for Agriculture, Deputy Dillon, who hoped that wheat had gone up the spout. We will have the results within the next 12 months. Judging by the aspect of affairs now, and judging by the amount of seed wheat that is being purchased now, we shall have a further large increase in the acreage of wheat. You have the same satisfactory trend in other directions also. Our imports of maize have gone down by 50 per cent. Why? Because the farmers here are growing the feeding barley that is taking the place of the maize. The number of pigs in this country now, as compared with 1951, has increased by 160,000. These are the figures by which you can judge the trend of events. No less than 52,000 cows disappeared between the time Deputy Dillon offered us the 1/- a gallon for milk and the time we got rid of the Coalition Government. Those 52,000 cows have now come back and this year you have 75,000 more cattle in the country than you had on the day Deputy Dillon left office. Surely these figures speak for themselves—and they are the things that count as far as the agricultural community is concerned.

I share Deputy Finan's view in regard to the Local Authorities (Works) Act, and I do so as one who has had definite experience of it. I supported it in this House when it was introduced. As I said here recently, the Fianna Fáil Party were not responsible for the reduced amounts under that Act. The lead was set by Deputy McGilligan, when he was Minister for Finance, and it was accepted by Deputy Keyes and Deputy Corish, two Deputies who held office in the Coalition Government. These two Deputies accepted a reduction of more than £500,000 under the Local Authorities (Works) Act. I believe that a lot of good can be done under that Act.

I always believed it. I might say that I took damned good care to ensure that my constituency got more than its share under that Act, when it was going—and I make no apologies for it. I believe a lot of good can be done under that Act. A lot of employment can be given and a lot of land that is at present waterlogged can be put into good condition.

Good man! Hear, hear!

I am only stating now what I stated in this House on the Second Reading of that Bill. I am making the same statement to-day as I did then.

That is right. I agree with you entirely. However, I should like to hear some member of the Front Bench state that view.

I do not agree with you in that, either. Fianna Fáil found that the Coalition Government were so anxious to gallop things through this House that it was necessary to give very careful consideration to the proper drafting of the Bill. As a matter of fact we have found ourselves up against a few snags since. I also share the view that that money should not be entirely by way of grant. If money is being given for that purpose, I believe that steps should be taken either to lay aside portion of it for keeping the rivers clean afterwards or to see that it will be provided by the local authority.

The provisions are statutory.

In connection with this Vote, I am anxious to know how much of the development fund will be devoted to actual industry. The fault that I found with the previous Government was that they borrowed but that their borrowing left no permanent benefit in the way of employment. If I see money being borrowed on any capital issue, I want to see that money put into industry which will give permanent employment. At the beginning of this session I had reason to raise again a matter in this House which I have been raising here for the pastcouple of years, namely, the position as regards the extension of Irish Steel, Limited, in Haulbowline. At present, a number of skilled workers there are unemployed. I want to see employment found for these men. As I have frequently remarked in this House, I cannot see any better way in which money which is supposed to give employment can be used than by putting it into the extension of an industry that will, of itself, give permanent employment afterwards to a large number of men. I move to report progress.

Progress reported; the Committee to sit again.
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