Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Friday, 11 Dec 1953

Vol. 143 No. 12

Vocational Education (Amendment) Bill, 1953—Second and Subsequent Stages.

Minister for Education (Mr. Moylan)

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time. This Bill has for its main purpose the provision of additional income for vocational education committees. There is, as Deputies are aware, a great demand for vocational education throughout the country. While this is a sign that the current and potential advantages of vocational education are appreciated, it necessarily involves expenditure. Costs of all kinds, particularly costs of school buildings and equipment, have increased very considerably. Also, of course, salaries and wages have increased. About two-thirds of the cost of vocational education is expended on instruction, so that increases in the remuneration of teachers make heavy inroads on the funds of vocational education committees. Remuneration was increased in 1951 and in 1953 in connection with the cost of living; and in 1952, married scales of salary and children's and rent allowances were introduced for vocational teachers. These increases entailed an additional expenditure of £227,000 for vocational education committees, that is, the equivalent of an average local rate of about 2d. without any corresponding expansion in vocational education services.

There are still many areas throughout the country where people receive no benefits from vocational education although they contribute in the payment of rates to the cost of the scheme in their particular counties as a whole. It would only be just that these benefits would also extend to those people and, therefore, in this Bill I have taken the long view and propose that we not only provide for the more immediate and urgent needs of vocational committees but also that we place the committees in a position to plan for several years ahead. Accordingly, the Bill provides for increased local contributionsranging from 3d. to 8d. in the £ over the rating figures laid down by existing legislation. These increased local contributions will, of course, be accompanied by increased State grants.

If you should think that this is to confer too much spending power upon vocational education committees, I would say in answer to some adverse criticism that the advantages of vocational education for our people are such that we need have no fear of not getting value for the money. In any case I am satisfied that the method of control of the administration of vocational education gives us sufficient safeguards to ensure the elimination of any wasteful expenditure. A further curb on expenditure naturally is that each locality will have to meet roughly half the cost of vocational education.

It will be noted in the Bill that instead of having varying rates for different committees this Bill proposes to revert to the principle of earlier Vocational Education Acts by having one common rate for most committees. It is proposed to provide for a rate of 15d. in the £ for each of 36 committees and 18d. in the £ for the remaining six. These six are urban areas with the exception of County Longford, which is a very small county with a relatively low return from the rates.

In addition, there are other county areas where the valuation per head of the population is low and representations have been made continually to my Department by the Irish Vocational Education Association to give special consideration to such areas.

Section 53 of the original Act of 1930 states that in making regulations for the payment of parliamentary grants to vocational education committees regard may be had to (a) the annual local contribution payable to each vocational education committee; (b) the amount of the rate required to raise such annual local contribution, and (c) the population of the vocational education area of such committee. Hitherto, except in urban areas, no special weight was given to considerations of population and low valuation in themaking of regulations for the payment of grants. When a committee found itself in straitened circumstances and the Department was satisfied that this condition was due to a low return from the rates, special State subventions were made as required to tide such committee over its difficulties. We regard that as a most unsatisfactory system. As the vocational education schemes developed, however, it became more and more evident that certain areas of low valuation were at a great disadvantage. The committees' incomes consisted mainly of the return from the local rates plus an equal sum from the State, and where the local rates produced only a small sum the State grant was, therefore, small in accordance.

This difficulty in rural areas has now been given special consideration in this Bill. It is proposed, by providing regulations for an increase in the ratio of the State grant to the local contribution in the case of seven county committees, to place them relatively in the same position as the rest of the county committees. The seven committees concerned are those for the Counties of Galway, Donegal, Kerry, Leitrim, Longford, Mayo and Sligo. If any of these seven committees finds that its income for any year on the present basis of £1 per £1 is insufficient, State grants may be authorised at a ratio of more than £1 to £1 but not exceeding £2 to £1. At present, in providing funds for vocational purposes, where the local contribution is £1 the State grant is £1 also. In districts of particularly low valuation the amount of the State grant is really in my opinion unfair in comparison with the State grant given to those counties of higher valuation. We, therefore, propose to change that and for those seven counties to pay on a basis not exceeding £2 State grant to £1 local contribution.

Mr. Dillon

What counties are those?

Mr. Moylan

Galway, Donegal, Kerry, Leitrim, Longford, Mayo and Sligo. We think that by giving those particular counties an extra Stategrant they will be able to plan more comprehensively in the future.

The method of computation of the grants is set out in regulations which the Minister makes each year under Section 53 of the Vocational Education Act, and as the original Act empowers the Minister to raise the ratio of grant there is no specific reference in this Bill to the seven committees concerned. The new arrangement is, however, implicit in the fact that the upper limit of rating in the Bill is fixed in relation to six of the committees concerned at 15d. in the £ and to the seventh at 18d. These upper limits are much less than would be necessary if the payment of grants to these committees were to continue on the £1 for £1 basis. On that basis, for example, a rate of 2/-in the £ would be necessary at present to produce the same total income for vocational education in County Kerry as would a rate of 15d. under the proposed arrangement. I did not know that Deputy Palmer would be here. In plain language these committees of which, incidentally, four are for Gaeltacht counties, will in future be eligible for a higher ratio than heretofore of State grant. I would like to make it clear, however, that it does not follow that all or any of these seven committees will automatically receive a higher ratio of State grants, or that all or any of them will ultimately be placed on a £2 for £1 basis. The increasing of the ratio will depend on each committee's requirements for the time being and in this connection it will be necessary to take into consideration the committee's probable financial position in the years ahead so as to ascertain whether its difficulties could not be met by merely taking up an additional rate each year and continuing the grants at the existing ratio.

The estimated additional cost of these proposals in State grants and local rates over and above that authorised by existing legislation is as follows: In the year 1954-55, £21,000 State grants and £13,000 rates; in the year 1955-56, £40,000 State grants and £29,000 rates; in the year 1956-57,£72,000 State grants and £47,000 rates; in the year 1957-58, £100,000 State grants and £70,000 rates. Ultimately, if the full rate is ever taken up by all committees, £597,000 State grants and £337,000 rates per annum. These are substantial sums.

Mr. Dillon

Hear, hear!

Mr. Moylan

I have recently been reading very adverse criticism of expenditure by vocational committees and by the State on vocational education, and the suggestion is made that the country does not get an adequate return for the money already being expended. I know that that is not correct, but I do think we must be more than careful to ensure that there is real value given for the money expended and for the money which we have authority to spend before we do indulge in any orgy of spending.

These figures include the additional cost to the State of paying grants to the seven committees mentioned in a ratio in accordance with their needs, and the cost of these special grants to the seven counties will be:—in 1954-55, £7,180; in 1955-56, £8,670; in 1956-57, £20,430; and in 1957-58, £22,300. Ultimately, if a £2 for £1 basis were in operation for all seven, the total will be £68,000 per annum. That, in comparison with the whole expenditure, is really very little, and I think it is only right that in these counties which have been working at a disadvantage, and where their circumstances are poor, we are perfectly justified in making the arrangement.

The purpose of Section 2 of the Bill is to deal with matters arising out of the introduction last year of the payment of remuneration to vocational teachers on the same basis as for secondary and primary teachers, namely, by scales of salary differentiated on a marriage basis. All these scales carry children's allowances and rent allowances, but in the case of secondary and primary teachers the children's allowances are payable to retired teachers and to widows of teachers. To pay allowances similarly to pensioned vocational teachers and to widows of vocational teachers wouldappear to be going beyond the provisions of the Local Government (Superannuation) Acts. Moreover, the paying body is, in the case of the superannuation of vocational education officers, the local rating authority. After consultation with the Attorney-General, it was decided that provision could be made for the payment of children's allowances to vocational teachers' widows and to superannuated vocational teachers by amending the Vocational Education Acts as is here proposed, so as to enable the vocational education committees to pay them out of their funds.

Section 3 of the Bill is intended to remove any doubts as to whether the children's allowances and rent allowances are pensionable. They were intended to be non-pensionable as they are for primary and secondary teachers, but in view of the meaning of pensionable remuneration as defined in Section 34 of the Local Government (Superannuation) Act, 1948, there was some doubt as to whether they actually were non-pensionable. Section 3 proposes to make them so beyond doubt and thus to bring the vocational teachers into line with the other teachers in this respect.

I would like to ask the indulgence of the Oireachtas in trying to secure the passage of the Bill into law this term. In the month of November each year vocational educational committees prepare and submit to the Department of Education their schemes for the following financial year and they have to decide in that month the amount of local rate they propose to take up. About a dozen of the committees are now on the maxima allowed by existing legislation or are within a fraction of a penny thereof and they cannot obtain sufficient income for all their commitments next year unless this Bill is passed at an early date. If it is passed before they make their usual demands early next month to the local rating authority, sub-section (3) of Section I will enable them to avail of the additional rate provided in the Bill so as to have increased incomes in the coming financial years.

There is one more point with regard to Section 2. A case might arise of a married teacher having to retire with, on account of short service, no pension, or it might happen that a teacher's widow should die, leaving young children. It is felt that in that event the children's allowances should continue to be payable to the guardian and to cover such cases I am circulating a short amendment which I shall move on the Committee Stage.

I think that vocational education is very valuable and that it can be made much more valuable. One of my complaints about education in this country is that sufficient interest is not taken in it. I think our educational system could be tremendously improved if that public interest could be created. I know of no better way to publicise its defects and to foreshadow for them methods of improvement than discussion of its various difficulties in the Dáil and Seanad. I should like, at least on the annual Estimates for Education, that Deputies would come prepared to discuss these problems because while there is adverse criticism, very often it is uninformed criticism. I do believe that every Estimate and every Bill, particularly in relation to education, needs bringing to bear on it the most informed and even the most bitter criticism, so long as it is informed, as possible.

Mr. Palmer

There is not very much really that I have to say on the Second Reading of this Bill. I should like to begin by referring to the last remarks of the Minister, that in spite of the fact that this country was once known as the island of saints and scholars, at the present time sufficient interest is not taken by the people in education. I am sure they mean well. Parents are anxious to have their children educated in the primary schools, at least, where I suppose 90 per cent. of our children receive their only education. It is desirable, therefore, as the Minister states that every effort should be made to bring home to the people the necessity for education. After all we must understand that the progress of the nation depends on the education of its people and, whilesecondary and university education is entirely beyond the means of the vast majority of the people of this country, it is essential that vocational education, at least, should be made available to children, even in the remotest areas of the country.

Perhaps the fact of giving local authorities legal rights to increase the rates for vocational education will give vocational education committees an opportunity of advancing vocational education until such time as there will be a vocational school in at least every parish in the country. Those interested on our local authorities have difficulties because of increased rates and while there is a prospect that rates may be further increased, they may be slow to avail of the rights afforded them by this Bill. However, once they have authority for doing it, it is hoped that eventually they will avail to the full of the right to strike rates that will be sufficient to give vocational education to our people.

While it is only right that members of county councils should have representation on vocational committees, they have, of course, the right also to nominate others who are not members of the council, and it would be desirable, I think, as county councillors have so many other duties to perform, that the least number of councillors should be members of vocational committees and that the other members should be brought in from outside, people who are really interested in and have a full knowledge of the educational requirements of the State. They of course, would be managers, teachers, and people having a real interest in farming and industry.

Mr. Dillon

Will you not add parents?

Mr. Palmer

Some of these will be parents, I presume. In that way we can give an opportunity to children to avail of vocational education particularly in the rural areas, because while awaiting the construction of vocational schools in such districts it would be desirable at any rate thatitinerary teachers should hold classes in any buildings that would be available, such as parish halls. I would not say dance halls, because it is unfortunate that numbers of our young people when they leave school prefer to visit the dance hall rather than the vocational school.

Mr. Dillon

There is not much distinction in certain quarters.

Mr. Palmer

The grievance that exists amongst ratepayers in regard to paying any rate or an increased rate for vocational education arises from the fact that the majority of them have children who have no opportunity of getting vocational education. It is quite understandable that they should have a grievance in that respect. Children attending primary schools may be rather backward in learning what I might call the literary subjects, but afterwards, when they get an opportunity of attending a vocational school and learning crafts, cookery, needlework and so forth, they may become quite competent. In fact, I have known several children, pupils of my own, who were quite dull and backward when attending the national school, and I always advised children when they left school and the opportunity offered to attend a vocational school, to avail of it, whether in this country or elsewhere; that they should attend night classes when their work was done. I have known some of these who have become quite prosperous in life because they have done that.

If we can entice children to make full use of the vocational education available to them it would perhaps be more useful to them afterwards than if they received a secondary education, because this country is really full of boys and girls who have got leaving certificates, matriculation and so forth and who have not had an opportunity of attending a university and they are looking for jobs here and there and are not really equipped at all for life. It would be much better if such children had attended a vocational school and learned something that would beuseful to them so that when they went out into the world they could take up some skilled occupation.

In connection with the provision now being made for children's allowances for vocational teachers and also, as the amendment states, for the children of deceased teachers, that is very welcome news for the vocational teachers, because there is no reason why provision should not be made for them the same as has been made for some time past for primary and secondary teachers.

I am more than pleased at the statement made by the Minister that for the seven counties mentioned, in which my own county of Kerry is included, for every £1 subscribed locally there will be a State grant of £2, because in a county like Kerry and the other counties that the Minister named where valuations are low it would be utterly impossible for vocational committees to carry out their commitments as regards the building of schools, the payment of teachers, the provision of equipment and so forth unless some extra provision was made by the State, and it is well that the State has come to the rescue. I can assure the Minister, because of the necessity he has expressed for getting this Bill through as quickly as possible, on behalf of my own Party that we will give him permission to carry through all stages of the Bill to-day.

Mr. Finan

I appreciate the necessity for expediting this measure as much as possible and it is not my intention to delay its passing. In my view, vocational education is the most important branch of education we have. I expressed that view before on the Minister's Estimate and I shall repeat it on every possible occasion. At one time I regarded the introduction of vocational education as a possible solution to the big question of emigration, because I believed that specialist training of boys and girls in the different crafts would stimulate them to establish industries and branches of employment of their own and thus find a livelihood at home. I believe that that should bepossible, but I am afraid that vocational education at present is a misnomer. It would be more correct to describe it as technical education.

I remember raising this question with the Minister's predecessor, because I really think that the intention originally was to discover the natural bent of a child, to discover in what way its natural talents tended and in a vocational school to develop that bent. I believe that would be real vocational education, assisting the child to follow its natural vocation. I do not want to labour that point, but I think that a more accurate description would be "technical education." I welcome the change which the Minister has made with regard to the grants being paid to different counties.

Mr. Dillon

Why will the Deputy not elaborate a little the distinction between vocational and technical education?

Mr. Finan

The Minister is anxious to get this Bill through and Private Deputies' business comes on at 12 o'clock, and I think that the debate on the Minister's Estimate would be a more appropriate time to raise it. What I was coming to was the grants being paid to the county vocational committees. That is the point to which I—and my colleague Deputy McQuillan—intend to devote most attention. Up to the present—and indeed up to the passing of this Bill— Roscommon Vocational Education Committee, in common with others, believe there is not a fair contribution by the State in regard to some counties as compared with urban areas. This will be appreciated by the House when it is remembered that the six towns, Sligo, Tralee, Drogheda, Bray, Galway and Wexford get £4 to the £1 local contribution, whereas we in Roscommon and other counties get only £1 to the £1. I fail to see why that should operate.

It will be readily conceived that in rural areas it is far more difficult and more expensive for committees to operate their schemes over a scattered area than it is in the case of acentralised community in the places I have indicated, where there are no heavy travelling expenses and the upkeep of the schools is confined mainly to one building, whereas in Roscommon we have five or six. I cannot understand why places like Sligo, Tralee and Drogheda should get £4 to the £1 while committees in rural areas operating a scattered scheme are expected to work on a 50-50 basis.

I suppose it is not proper to try to force this at this time but I think the Minister should examine it, when he will see how unfairly the scheme operates and will operate even after the passing of this measure. We in Roscommon have long since reached the limit of what we can demand from the local authority. As a matter of fact we have been operating on an overdraft for some time past. The introduction of this measure will enable us to get rid of the overdraft.

We have to remember, too, that we have to get this money from the county council, and it is possible that county councils will be inclined to keep down the demand of a local committee or other subsidiary body. Up to the present they have not done so; and it is quite possible that they will not raise any objection to an increase of 1d. or 2d or 3d. in the £. The ratepayers generally are not satisfied with the operation of vocational education for the very reason the Minister himself has mentioned. While they are making the contribution towards providing this education, the provisions made in the matter of vocational schools are so meagre that the children in the rural areas are unable to derive any benefit from it. I have always felt it a terrible mistake to concentrate on the erection of vocational schools in the towns rather than at cross-roads in the country. At present, we cannot fill to capacity some of the vocational schools in some of our towns, while throughout the rural areas they are clamouring for education. I have no doubt that if opportunities were available in rural areas, the maximum attendance would be forthcoming.

I said last year, on the Minister's Estimate, that I thought it a pity that,since the regrettable decline in the rural population has left many rooms available in national schools, some effort would not be made to provide through itinerant teachers vocational instruction in the national school. If the people realised the advantage which could be gained, and if the facilities were available, they would not have the slightest criticism and would not begrudge any contribution they were asked to make.

I would again ask the Minister to examine the position of counties like Roscommon, where the State grants are given only £1 for £1, and to compare that with the position in the six centres I have named, where they get four times the contribution. I do not want to labour the point, as I know Deputy McQuillan will be dealing with it also.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

Like Deputy Finan, I shall be brief on this Bill. The importance of vocational education cannot be over-emphasised and many people regard vocational schools as the poor man's university. I welcome any measure to improve the system. I think the present system could be usefully reviewed. These vocational schools were originally set up to give practical instruction in a number of subjects and I believe that idea is not being adhered to. Many people will tell you that the line of instruction in a vocational school in a provincial town and the line of instruction in a secondary school differ very little, that more or less the same kind of education is given to the children in both secondary schools and vocational schools. The Minister might inquire into that allegation, which I believe to be correct. It is of the utmost importance that young students in rural districts and in towns should be afforded, as in most districts at present, an opportunity of getting specialised knowledge in one subject or another—agricultural science, engineering, smith work, carpentry or some other practical subject.

According to my information, many students are attending, not for the purpose of getting this specialised knowledge but to learn literary subjects— Irish, English, mathematics, and so on,I think that is not the original purpose for which these vocational schools were set up. It was assumed that before pupils would go in, they would have a sound knowledge of these subjects and could improve that knowledge in a limited way in the vocational school, but that the special attention would be given to the practical side of their education. Many people, taxpayers and ratepayers alike, for that reason comment adversely on the present system. They maintain that there is a good deal of overlapping in having big buildings in the same town imparting the same type of education. I believe there are grounds for that complaint and I would ask the Minister to inquire into the system and, if there is a case for review, to have that review carried out.

Deputy Finan mentioned that in a number of national schools there are some rooms not occupied. We know there has been a great decrease in the child population in the rural districts. In many schools in rural areas there are a few rooms available. I think that these rooms could usefully be utilised for imparting vocational instruction. It would be a good idea to use these rooms, instead of spending thousands of pounds in the erection of big buildings in towns where there are already good facilities so far as education is concerned. It would be much better to have teachers travel out to the country to these national schools and to set up some equipment there whereby they could give practical instruction in, say, carpentry and other such subjects. I think that that is a good idea and that it would be welcomed generally by the taxpayers and ratepayers throughout the country. Many people are against the centralisation of our schools in our towns. They are of the opinion that these spare rooms which, unfortunately, are there now in many of our national schools could be utilised for that purpose.

I appeal to the Minister to try and devise some scheme whereby people in remote districts—who have to contribute as much towards vocational education as the people living in the towns and who, comparatively speaking, are labouring under many disadvantagesso far as education is concerned—will be considered in the matter of the use of these spare rooms in our national schools for the purpose of vocational education.

In my view, every child in this country should be obliged to attend school until the age of 16. The two extra years between 14 and 16 could not be better spent by any child than at school. It would be a good idea if an opportunity of vocational education, say, between the ages of 14 and 16 years were afforded to children in remote rural districts where that opportunity is not at present afforded. If these classes were available in schools throughout the country I have no doubt but that they would be well attended by many adults as well. In towns and cities you have various attractions but in rural districts vocational education would be looked upon on a higher level than in the towns and cities. I appeal to the Minister to try to devise some scheme whereby vocational education can be provided in our national schools for our children and adults. I am not agitating for the provision of money for the erection of new buildings. As I have said, we have several spare rooms in our national schools and in these spare rooms vocational instruction could be given.

I welcome this measure. It is a good measure and it is up to the individual county councils to see whether or not they will agree with the Minister. If, for instance, Cork County Council are of the opinion that 15d. in the £ is too much for vocational education, I understand that there is nothing to prevent them from reducing that amount to, say, 10d. or 1/- in the £. Therefore, it is for the county councils to say whether or not they agree with the Minister. However, under this Bill, they have an opportunity of providing more money, through rates, and they are empowered thereby to get more money from central funds.

An Ceann Comhairle

I would remind the Deputy that only 35 minutes remain before 12 o'clock.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

I have tried to be as brief as possible in my remarks.

Mr. McQuillan

I am prepared to back the Minister in his wishes to foster vocational education. I have very strong criticism to offer in connection with the manner in which grants are to be allocated in the future. Under the present system, in addition to the basic grant, for every £1 put up by the rating authority the State puts up another £1. That is the position in most of the counties in Ireland. However, we have, in addition, six town committees. They are Sligo, Galway, Tralee, Wexford, Bray and Drogheda. These six towns get grants at the rate of £4 from the State for every £1 put up by the local authority.

To-day the Minister has enlarged the scheme to the extent that he has mentioned seven counties—Kerry, Galway, Donegal, Leitrim, Longford, Mayo and Sligo. In future for every £1 put up in these seven counties by the rating authority the State may give up to £2. I do not want to take away this privilege from any county—I want it extended. Let me mention Kerry as an example. Kerry can get £2 from the State for every £1 put up by the local authority. The town of Tralee is in Kerry and the State will give £4 for every £1 put up by the local authority there. The same applies to Galway City and County, Sligo town and Sligo County. Tremendous advantages are given to these particular towns. I am very glad that a greater opportunity is being given to the children in these counties of obtaining vocational education in the future. To my mind, however, it is not fair on other counties—and I make no bones about saying it. I consider that Roscommon is just as much entitled to get this £2 from the State for every £1 put up by the local authority as Galway, Mayo, Sligo or Leitrim. Does the Minister want to argue on the amount of money that 1d. in the £ would bring in? It would bring in just as much in Kerry as it would bring in in Roscommon, and perhaps more. The same applies to County Galway.

With regard to the criticism ofgiving greater facilities to urban areas, I believe that we should cater in particular for the people in the rural areas who are situated at considerable distances from the towns. County vocational committees are handicapped in their efforts to give education to the people in these rural areas for the simple reason that it costs more to equip schools which are not situated in urban or town centres. You have travelling expenses, the provision of equipment, and in many cases you have to hire halls. Then there is the matter of the upkeep of the schools. You have 101 different expenses which you have not to incur in the towns. Consequently the amount available from State sources should be larger for the county committees who are mainly dealing with rural areas.

One of the criticisms offered in the discussion of every Estimate which comes before this House is that the people are leaving rural Ireland and that there are greater enticements for them in the towns in the way of work and amusements. Why not be practical, therefore, and allow county vocational committees to extend their activities into each parish? I think our own county has given an example to every other committee in that we have set up a hall in the parish of Moore. It was built by a parish committee. A room is attached to that hall which belongs to the vocational education committee. Our committee gave a grant extending over a number of years for the erection of that room. That is a much better proposition than erecting a new school in the locality.

The same applies with regard to what Deputy Murphy has said about the national schools. There are quite a number of national schools in which there is one room vacant at present and every effort should be made to utilise that room. No county vocational committee can work properly in this matter, unless it has more funds at its disposal, and I suggest to the Minister that he should be more than generous in his treatment of these committees rather than show favour to the towns. I ask him to reconsider the position of Roscommon Vocational Committee for the reasons given by Deputy Finan andmyself. In general, I welcome the measure and wish the best of luck to those counties which have been lucky enough to get the increase.

Mr. MacCarthy

This Bill comes at a very appropriate time, when the committees are considering the schemes for the coming year, and I join with other members in appealing to the Minister to see to it that these schools will not be merely continuation schools. No matter how advantageous such a scheme may be, technical instruction of one kind or another will be the predominant factor in them. They could be linked up with technical instruction in agriculture for the rural areas. Long ago, we had agricultural instruction in the national schools, but something of a technical nature could be linked with the present vocational system in rural areas.

So far as representation is concerned, to which Deputy Palmer referred, in our vocational committee, the representation is about 50-50 of public representatives and others interested in education. It is very important to have councillors on these committees because when the estimates come along to the county council or corporation, it is necessary to have people there who have an intimate knowledge of the proposals, so that they can be discussed intelligibly.

The Bill will enable committees to provide better equipment for instruction in woodcraft, metalwork and so on and perhaps some study of the basic sciences of agriculture. A point has been made regarding the £4 contribution in certain areas for every £1 raised by the local rates. The reason for this is understandable. In the case of the City of Cork, there is no vocational school in some directions within 20 miles of the city and the reason is that there is good bus transport for the students and they have very superior equipment and teachers in the city areas. It obviates the charge which would fall on the county authority in respect of putting up and equipping technical schools of their own and paying for teachers. There is also a link-up with industryand recommendations from these schools to local industries are of advantage to the pupils. That applies particularly to the motor trade and it would be a good thing if apprenticeships generally to trades could be linked up with our technical system.

I have not had the same experience with regard to national schools as some of the Deputies who have spoken. Some national schools built recently within ten or 15 miles of Cork have now become too small and additions will have to be provided. I do not think it would be a good thing that a room which has been occupied until a late hour at night should be used by children again early in the morning, without proper provision for ventilation, as the windows cannot be left open all night. Furthermore, I think more interest will be aroused if the school is a special school for the purpose and I agree with Deputy Palmer that that should apply to practically every parish. Everybody will admit that, in scattered areas where the population is small and the revenue low, it is a wise thing to make extra contributions.

Mr. Palmer

In view of the fact that other members are anxious to speak and that the Minister is anxious to get this Bill to-day, perhaps we could extend the time for discussion of the Bill by encroaching somewhat on Private Members' time

An Ceann Comhairle

If the Dáil so decides.

Mr. Moylan

I am quite happy.

Ordered: That notwithstanding anything to the contrary contained in Standing Orders, the time for taking Private Members' business at to-day's sitting shall be 1 p.m.

Mr. Deering

I want to pay a tribute to the Minister for facilitating us in Wicklow by the provision of a rural science teacher. It is a facility which is being availed of and which the young people and others not soyoung are pleased to have. We had a slight difficulty about transport, but with the assistance of Deputy Cogan and others we have got over it. I think, however, that Wicklow, being a mountainous county and rather poor, should have been grouped with these western counties and should have got any special privileges which were going.

Mr. Cogan

I should like to acknowledge the graceful tribute which Deputy Deering has paid to me in regard to the improved transport facilities secured in West Wicklow. These facilities were secured as a result of the co-operation of Deputies, including Deputy Deering and myself, and the Minister, but mainly through the efforts of the voluntary organisation in the district. We had a problem to solve. We had a good vocational school in Baltinglass and the Minister made it better by providing a rural science teacher; but there was the problem of a wide scattered area, sparsely populated, and it was a question of whether we should build additional schools all over that scattered area or endeavour, by securing better transport facilities, to bring the children into the day school at Baltinglass. It was considered that it would be more beneficial to have the children brought into Baltinglass, particularly as there was not a great number and as they were scattered over a large area, where there would be at least three vocational teachers, a variety of subjects taught and better instruction given. Through the co-operation of the local representatives and particularly with the help of Macra na Feirme, the young farmers' organisation, which offered to put up a contribution towards the cost of transport of these children, transport services for the school were secured.

I think it is right to express thanks to the directors of C.I.E. for meeting the wishes of the local people in West Wicklow in supplying this essential service. All they were asked to do was to amend and supplement the existing bus service so that the children would be brought to school. They did thatand I think it is right to express gratitude to them but the real success of the scheme and of every scheme in connection with vocational education lies in the co-operation of voluntary rural organisations such as Macra na Feirme.

If the people, through their local authorities, demand additional education and if they are prepared to cooperate in every way in making that vocational education a success, then success is assured. As long as the Minister and the Department of Education have to go around trying to force education on the people, so long will it be, to a large extent, a failure but when the people, particularly the young adult population such as the young farmers, meet together in a parish and say they want additional educational facilities, then if they are granted, they are bound to give much better results than if they were enforced from above by the Minister or by the Department.

I mentioned the position in West Wicklow as being typical of the kind of problems that will arise and are arising all over the country. In that particular case a central school in the town of Baltinglass was found to serve the interests of the whole district better as far as the day school for vocational education is concerned. In addition, we want more night schools in the rural areas. There is quite a number of young boys and girls working on the farms—they may be agricultural labourers of 15 or 16 years of age —who cannot, perhaps, be spared from their homes or the farms during the day.

I think it is desirable that in each district night classes should be held and that those night classes should be of the type that would cater for and suit the interests of the young people in the rural areas. In that way we can assure boys or girls, no matter what their circumstances may be and no matter what the circumstances of their parents may be, of securing an opportunity of a continuation education of some kind.

I do not agree with those Deputies who said that literary subjects should be ruled out almost completely in thevocational or technical schools. No matter how backward a child may be leaving the primary school and no matter how advanced or bright he may be, he can always supplement his literary education to a certain extent in the vocational school. I think it very often happens that boys or girls who are not anxious to learn or are not, perhaps, very apt up to the age of 14 may develop a different attitude afterwards and may supplement their knowledge of literary subjects during the period they are in the vocational school. They should be given that opportunity.

In conclusion I should like to say that I would welcome not only the teaching of such subjects as rural science, engineering and trades in those vocational schools but I would also like a little of the cultural subjects to be taught also. I think it is a good thing to develop the cultural side of life. It is a good thing for a young boy or girl growing up to be able to sing a good song, play a little music, give a good recitation—to be able, in fact, to show a little bit of culture, because I think the main success of the folk schools in Denmark lies not so much in the fact that they teach these subjects but that they inspire the young people with a desire to be better citizens. They raise the standard of intellectual knowledge, if you like, amongst the whole population and instil a little bit of patriotism into the people of Denmark which makes them anxious to succeed in life, not only for their own sakes and the sake of their families but also for the sake of the country.

If that spirit was inspired in the vocational schools, we would have less of the desire to fly to other countries to seek a livelihood, unless, of course, no possible opportunity was available here. Many people leaving this country could secure a living here but they leave it because they have no real outlook, and that is due, in the main, to defects in our educational system.

Mr. Browne

I am very glad to see that Mayo is one of the counties included to get the benefit of an increasedsubsidy. My grievance in regard to vocational education is that it does not cater for the rural areas. Vocational schools are mainly built in the bigger towns. Of late years there has been a very heavy demand in rural areas for vocational education. I speak of a rural area where a number of young fellows made application to get into vocational schools in Ballina, a distance of seven or eight miles away. It is practically impossible for young people to go to schools some of which are ten miles away from their home. When they get an opportunity of securing places in these schools, they have to cycle for the greater part of the year. They go to the schools in the mornings on bicycles, and they have to remain there for the day, and then they have to return home at night-time.

The point I want to emphasise in connection with vocational education concerns the qualification necessary to have a vocational school erected in a rural area. The qualification is such that it is nearly always impossible to get the Department of Education to accept a proposal to build a vocational school in the rural areas. The qualification has to do with the number of youngsters leaving the national school in a particular area so as to make up a quota. There is also some qualification in regard to a three-mile limit. That qualification may be all right. You may have a big number of national schools in an area with a big population but I believe that vocational schools should be built in the smaller towns and I would ask the Minister to review the whole conditions and ease the qualifications so as to permit of the erection of vocational schools in rural areas. As far as vocational education is concerned, the young boys who attend vocational schools in my area in Ballina are a credit to themselves and to the school. No matter what profession they turn their hand to they make a success of their lives. If young boys want to go into the building trade or if they wish to do carpentry they get a good foundation. If they have an inclination to train in a motor garage the vocational education they receive is of enormous advantage to them. The benefits they receivein this way remain with them for the rest of their lives.

The Minister was anxious to get this Bill through because of the desire of vocational education committees to make all their arrangements for the coming year. I join with the other members of the House in giving him every possible assistance to have it passed speedily. However, I would appeal to the Minister and to the Department to review the existing conditions as regards the school-leaving age in the rural areas so as to make it possible for a widening out of vocational education facilities in those areas.

Mr. Carter

I welcome this measure and I intend to be brief in speaking on it. I take it this is the result of representations that were made by the Congress of Vocational Teachers to the Minister some time ago and that he is implementing the proposals put forward at that congress and that in doing so he has had in mind the poorer counties, for instance, like Longford, where 1d. in the £1 would bring in roughly £640. The position is that the county vocational education committee are making arrangements for next year; they will require more tools and the maximum local contribution is 1/-. I take it that this measure will enable them to go ahead and expand vocational education. We have no post-primary accommodation in Longford for education of a secondary nature other than St. Mel's College. This is a diocesan college and it caters for three counties. In order to gain admittance there a boy must pass a stiff examination. This measure is calculated to relieve a situation in counties of that description. We are the poorest county, perhaps, on the whole list as the figures will justify. We have spent something like £105,000 on this type of education in the last 20 years. I am sure that no Deputy in the House can find fault with the measure in so far as it is designed to help the poorer areas with the lower valuations. For that reason I welcome the Bill.

Mr. Crotty

We are all very pleased to see this Bill being brought before the House. I would be more pleased if I could join with Deputies Deering and Cogan in congratulating the Minister on providing transport facilities. They seem to have got them in Wicklow. We had transport facilities for one particular school in Kilkenny and apparently the driver who had the car was doing the job at a very low rate at the beginning. He looked for an increased payment for his car and the Minister refused to give sanction for this particular car and this transport to the school. I would like to ask the Minister to reconsider that position. There is no local school where these children can acquire a vocational education; secondly, the school the children were going to was in a very sparsely populated district which had very few pupils and if five or six pupils were brought in from outside that area it would be a great help in enabling that school to be carried on.

Another matter to which I would like to direct the Minister's attention is the erection of schools. The Minister should be very careful where he sanctions schools to be built, that is, full day schools. Apparently, in some committees you have an influential member or possibly an influential parish priest who will bring a school to a very sparsely populated area. The result is that in a few years that school is left derelict, there being no pupils on the rolls. The Minister being away from all these local affairs can look objectively and see if there is a hope that in the future if that school is built there will be a reasonable proportion of pupils to attend it.

I noticed from the Minister's statement that he has increased the grant for Dublin from £2; when Dublin put up £1 he used to give them £2 and now he has given them £4. I am in favour of that but now that he has sanctioned that increase I think he should see that the vocational education committee put up a proper vocational bakery school in Dublin. As it is, there is a part-time one for apprentices serving their apprenticeship inDublin but any master baker's son down the country who wants to avail of technical education must go to London, Bristol or Edinburgh. It is not right that our young men should have to go to other countries when we could establish a proper bakery school here with the co-operation of the appropriate trade union, the guilds and the Master Bakers' Association. They could provide scholarships for young men to enable them to obtain training and perhaps the sons of master bakers could pay for their own training. I suggest that when the Minister has treated the Dublin Vocational Education Committee so generously he should look for some return. We should be able to provide that school for the sons of master bakers and the sons of other workers throughout the country.

Mr. Moylan

I am very grateful to the members of the Dáil for offering me this Bill so quickly. Sometimes, I am afraid, we live by slogans and, doing so, we often have that uninformed and damaging criticism to which I have referred already. At a school function some time ago, a well-educated, well-informed and intelligent gentleman said to me in the course of a discussion relating to schools: "We are all taught nowadays to believe that history began in 1916." Such an idea has never been held or been taught in the schools. It is merely a sneer at the attempt of a people to build their nation and to create national pride, but it is very often adopted unthinkingly by people. I refer to it now because of Deputy Murphy's reference to the vocational school as "the poor man's university." It may, and it does, give opportunities to men whose means are not great to secure certain educational advantages for themselves.

The vocational school, properly run, has something very valuable to offer to every citizen of the nation who desires to avail of it, and while I appreciate how genuine the idea behind Deputy Murphy's mind is, I dislike the expression "the poor man's university," because it seems to me to suggest that there is something deficient in the education given in the country.

I would like to suggest to Deputy Palmer that our primary schools suffer in the same fashion. The primary school, to my mind, gives the best educational training to be found anywhere in the country. I do not think that there is the respect for primary education throughout the country that there should be, or an appreciation of it. I would not like to allow the growth of an idea that had anything in it in the nature of a social slur. This is a democracy, and Mr. Dooley has said: "In a democracy one man is as good as another, and some are better." I think that suits us fairly well in this country.

I believe that there are defects in vocational education and, possibly, some of these defects arise out of the anxiety of vocational education committees to provide schools and provide sufficient education. A demand is made on them, a very heavy demand, and they try sometimes to meet it rather without full consideration of all that it entails. It is right, as Deputy Cogan has said, that we should not ignore what may be described as the purely intellectual aspect of vocational education, but if, as other Deputies have said, vocational schools are merely to be a substitute for secondary schools, there is no use in building any more of them.

Maybe there is something wrong with secondary schools too. It may be that we might give consideration to the fact that, after all, in some measure the secondary school is also a technical school in that it equips students for admission to certain posts and certain methods of livelihood for themselves and gives them the technical qualifications to fill these posts. But I would not suggest, as seems to have been suggested, that secondary education, or continuation education, unfits a man to do the work that has to be done in the country and to make the livelihood that he should make.

I read a book recently, a book written in County Wicklow. It is the story of work on a farm, a story of initiative, courage, determination and success. The author, without any experiencein farming, a graduate of a university, seemed, as far as I could judge, to make a tremendous success of his work on a very hard Wicklow hill farm. Therefore, I do not believe that education spoils a man for any type of work. Incidentally, I think that Deputy Deering and Deputy Cogan would be right in urging greater stress on agricultural education in the vocational schools, because the author of the book did not seem to know how to make silage without a tremendous amount of expense. Now, down in the County Cork or in County Kerry, if that person came amongst us, we would very easily show him how to do the work without any great expense. Maybe Deputy Cogan would mention that fact to the rural science teachers as this is something that seems to be badly wanted in the County Wicklow.

I have come across a difficulty about vocational education, and that is the lack of the proper primary school groundwork which enables the child going to the vocational school to avail himself fully of the instruction given there. Deputy Palmer mentioned certain dull and backward children in the primary schools who develop successfully under technical education. They may be dull and backward but at least they have been taught certain primary things. Again, I would mention the lack of appreciation of the work of the primary schools. Parents complain that children are not sufficiently well taught to avail themselves, through the work of the primary schools, of the secondary schools. One fundamental reason for that is lack of attendance at the primary schools. I know it.

While it is wise that the intellectual side of the training in technical schools should not be neglected it is also wise to remember that the vocational schools have a specific purpose. If they do not succeed in training men towards making a livelihood they are not doing their work. Vocational schools, of course, have been as a necessary preliminary, and as they have developed, mainly an urban matter, and it is essential that we should meet the demand that isbeing made for a wider extension of vocational education throughout rural areas. The most important vocation, and the vocation on which the economy of this country is based, is agriculture, and I think that the primary subject in the rural areas should be the attempt to give to the students all the scientific information it is possible to give them in regard to the development and work of agriculture. Every attempt should be made to strengthen the classes where subjects relating to agriculture are taught. That, I think, is being done but it is not easy to make an expansion of the system at the moment. It will be a slow growth, not because we cannot find the money to build the schools, but because we need teachers of a particular type.

Our system of education, such as it is, will provide us with quite sufficient teachers for our purpose and more than enough to teach literary subjects. In the building of schools—very often a school is demanded, the demand is acceded to and the school is built, and those for whom the school is built expect that it can be provided with the teachers that they have seen provided in other areas. These teachers are not available. We are doing our best to train woodwork teachers, we are doing the very best we can to provide them.

While I cannot agree that our vocational teachers are not reasonably well-paid, yet I know that craftsmen can earn such wages outside even though these earnings may be—shall I say—spasmodic; there may be terms of unemployment, that the craftsman outside is always inclined to compare the highest rate he can secure outside with the ordinary rate in the vocational schools and as a result we have not been able to get as many men of the type we need.

There is great difficulty in getting metalwork teachers, and to my mind those teachers are essential to have in the vocational schools.

While we are doing our best to provide and train rural science teachers whose work is most valuable to agriculture and can be more and more valuable yet we are not gettingthese men in sufficient numbers by any means and consequently when a school is built and that type of teacher is not available, the curriculum is overloaded with subjects which may be useful in themselves but are not the really essential ones for the district in which the school is.

I am often amazed at hard-headed farmers of this country. It costs them a couple of thousand pounds at least and it entails a college course of seven years to make a doctor and the wards are full of them. Our absorption of medical men in this country is 80 per annum and we produce about 300 and if anybody believes that the life of an ordinary dispensary doctor is a bed of roses after all that study and expenditure, I think it is one of the hardest jobs there are—especially when he may be attacked at Cork County Council by Deputy Murphy or somebody like that.

The secondary education which he must get and a three year college course ensures the production of a graduate in rural science. I cannot get those graduate teachers where they could do most valuable work because many firms employ them more and more and the Department of Agriculture grabs whatever is left and will do so more and more. I would suggest to the Deputies who have the welfare of vocational education and of the nation at heart to try and spread the idea that there are valuable posts for agricultural graduates. People seem to work on the idea that agriculture has really nothing to do with the economy of this country but actually we must be more and more concerned with its development and in training for it in the vocational schools.

Again, this question of itinerant teachers—it is a good method but we have not got enough teachers of the type that would really get a grip on the people's mentality and I am not so sure that there are so many empty primary schools. Here and there, there are schools where you will find a vacant room but there is an ebb and flow about that. In some places you build a school adequate for all present purposesand for the future, and then there is a sudden evolution towards larger numbers and you have to add to the school. You really cannot depend on primary schools. Apart from that, the primary schools are not the property of the Department of Education and we cannot use them. Neither are they the property of the county council.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

I feel sure the managers would have no objection.

Mr. Moylan

But the teachers might have an objection and often very rightly. There are certain intrusions on the primary school which do create difficulty for teachers and make the place unpleasant for children and I do not like butting in on primary schools at all.

I do believe in vocational education along lines that I have very clearly in my mind but except where schools provide very tangible resources vocational education will not progress and we will not be justified in building more schools and providing more teachers. Therefore, I suggest that vocational education committees should ask themselves what is the true purpose of vocational education and where schools are being built steps should be taken to ensure that the purpose we have in mind is fully carried out. I know, of course, having been a member of a county council myself and having been an unfortunate T.D. for a long time, how great the pressure is on public representatives to meet the wishes of their constituents. In spite of the abuse hurled on county councillors and T.D.s, I know how great is the heroic resistance to evil on the part of these representatives. We intend to spend a lot of money. That expenditure will impose a heavy burden on the public in providing vocational education on the scale we envisage and we should, therefore, take every care to give very tangible economic results in return. Otherwise the expenditure will not justify itself.

There is some question in relation to the £4 to certain areas. When vocational education was first initiated it was in great measure founded in the urban areas and students from outsidethose areas attended the vocational schools situated in the towns and cities. Indeed, that situation still persists. I think Cork City is £4 to £1 while the actual instruction is given not only to the city children but to a vast multitude of children attending from the surrounding countryside. In the same way Dublin City is providing amazing facilities for vocational education because of the co-operative way in which the committee is working with the Department of Education in the provision of specific courses, courses which are availed of not only by the city children but by children from all over the country. There may be necessity in another vocational Bill to adjust these things but, as matters stand, I think we are fully justified in leaving them as they are at present.

Question put and agreed to.

Agreed to take the remaining stages to-day.