Deputy de Valera, a few moments ago, said that he did not hear one practical solution offered by the Opposition as regards the country's set-up and the evils which confront it. He also said that it would take all that we had in us on all sides of the House to meet the situation. Some time ago I suggested that in order to deal with the problems which confronted us a national Government was well overdue. If it takes all that is in us on all sides of the House to meet the situation, then the obvious conclusion from Deputy de Valera's contribution is a Government comprising all Parties giving of their best. Having that, you would then have what I consider honest criticism in relation to the evils which confront this nation.
In time of war great nations and empires come together in order to wage battle and secure victory over the enemy. In that part of Ireland over which this Government has jurisdiction we have many evils facing us at the present moment from a national, social and economic point of view. The national evil, of course, is Partition which for the first time over a period of years was discussed in a serious way. The question of Partition may have been referred to by the Taoiseach in replies given to questions put down by some Deputies but in general there has been more said about Partition in the past three months than was said in the past ten years.
I listened carefully to Deputy Giles, just as I listened to Deputy de Valera.While I admire his courage and his outspoken approach, I do not agree with everything he said. I do not agree that this is an insignificant State. I do not agree that we would not worry about Partition if we could secure our objectives here as regards the eradication of social and economic evils. Whether we succeed in remedying those evils in this part of Ireland we are going to continue the fight to end Partition. I do not think any Irishman would be prepared to allow that problem to be shelved if we were able to secure the removal of those evils about which we talk so much from day to day. Neither do I think that the present head of the Government is a coward. Even though I differ from him politically I would not wish to describe him as such. I do not think the leader of any Party is a coward, nor is the humblest Deputy in this House. We all have the same desire, namely, the reunification of our country and the establishment of political, social and economic independence. That was the aspiration of the men who went out and fought from generation to generation and will be, I hope, the aspiration of this nation whether we achieve our other objectives or not.
If, as I said, we had a national Government, we would be able to deal with many problems, with the foremost problem of Partition, the problem of the Irish language, of unemployment, emigration and the development of the country from an industrial and an agricultural point of view.
I do not know what can be done regarding the ending of Partition. I do not think there is any Party prepared to advocate physical force. There is general agreement, I think, that that is out of the question. Therefore it is no use talking about ending Partition by that method. As far as I can remember different Governments in this country have all in their own way done their best to bring about a reunification of the country. I do not think any fiery language or any irresponsible expressions of opinion are going to bring that day nearer. We may criticise the Taoiseach because he had, perhaps,reason to meet the Prime Minister of Great Britain. I personally feel that social intercourse of that kind would be much better than any flamboyant language or any excited talk here or elsewhere without taking into consideration the dangerous effect it would have. As regards our diplomatic relations abroad we should see that those who represent us are given every assistance in bringing the case for the unity of the country before other peoples. They should be assisted financially so that they will be able to entertain and to bring together people who would be of importance in the nation to which the representatives are accredited, America, France, Germany and other countries.
Although I was not a member of the Dáil at the time the Irish News Agency was established some years ago by the inter-Party Government, I was in full agreement with that step. It enabled them to present first-hand and truthful news to the outside world so that they could bring to heel the misrepresentations of other big newspapers that seemed to have some reason or other for misrepresenting our views and the general set-up within Ireland. I refer to the Press Association, to Reuter and the other Press combines who constantly print Irish news upside down. Although the Irish News Agency may not be showing a profit and may be in debt, I believe it is doing a good job of work and we should maintain and encourage it; eventually instead of showing a debt I am sure it will show a profit.
We would all like to see Partition ended. I remember during the term of office of the inter-Party Government on the occasion of the passing of an Act by the British House of Commons a big rally was held in O'Connell Street in which the then Taoiseach declared that we were going to hurt the British in their pocket and in their pride. I did not hear of anybody hurting them since and I do not think we could hurt them very much. That kind of talk will not do any good. Friendly association would be more effective. We should try to convince the British Government that if the unification ofIreland is brought about they will have on their side a friendly nation, a friendly nation from a business point of view. Because of the thousands of young Irish men and women who are married to thousands of English men and women, we would be a very peculiar neighbour indeed if we wished the British nation any injustice or evil. If we did, we would be wishing that to our own kith and kin.
If it could be brought home to the British Government that reunification would be a great advantage to her as well, some action might be taken. If the fact could be brought before the British workers that there are thousands of Irish people engaged in employment and perhaps taking employment away from them, there might be a different attitude. If the same circumstances existed here I wonder would we be as nice as they are? I worked in that country and I often thought that if a few hundred Englishmen were working in Mayo, and there were some hundreds of Mayo men idle, what would the situation be and would they take it complacently and easily? The point that needs to be emphasised is that if the Partition problem were solved there would not be such a great reason for emigration; that the cause of our not being able to build up the country economically is that the industrial arm is cut away. By being left with an unbalanced economy we are being asked to achieve the impossible, to build up in a totally agricultural section of our country an industrial section.
This heavy exodus of our people to Great Britain is due to Partition and to the fact that the industrial part of the nation has been severed from its main body. I think that whenever our statesmen meet British statesmen, whether it be over a cup of tea or at a trade conference, they should refer to this matter which is so important to everyone. The oftener they do so the better, because I believe that it is in that way Partition can be brought more speedily to an end.
No doubt every member of the House regrets that there is an Irishman, a member of Parliament, inprison at the moment. I do not see what we can do, no matter how loudly we may shout about it. I say that because I think that if a plebiscite were taken the people would not consent to any Government taking up arms to attempt to achieve the unification of the country. None of us wants to see bloodshed again. If we can get the people in North-East Ulster to join, so to speak, the parent body in a peaceable manner it will be much better for the country generally, even if we have to wait another eight or ten years before the achievement of that. There is nothing to be gained by forcing them in. If they were forced in they might become hostile and perhaps could not be trusted in the event of an emergency in the future. It would be far better to get them to come in as peaceful citizens to take their place in building up the nation and in making this a united country. I think that would be the greatest achievement of all, even though it means that we may have to wait for another few years before it takes place. That is my outlook and approach on this subject.
The question of unemployment and emigration is a very big one. In dealing with it, we must take into consideration the internal division of the country. I do not think myself that any Government in the future, whether it be Labour, Clann na Talmhan, Fine Gael or Fianna Fáil is going to bring about a solution of that problem, not to a 100 per cent. anyway. While that is my opinion, I still think that we could reduce considerably the number who emigrate, particularly from the West of Ireland. We hear a great deal about the City of Dublin. It is a great city. I entered it first as a young lad, away back in 1932, but it has grown considerably since then. In fact, if I had not been in Dublin since then, I would hardly know it to-day, it has grown so much. I imagine that in 1932 the population of Dublin was about 300,000, but to-day, when we include Dublin and Greater Dublin, the population must be between 500,000 and 600,000. That is a big jump over a period of 21 years. At the same time, as we know, the rural population is onthe decline. Many people hold that the City of Dublin, if it has not already become top heavy, will do so in time, even if the country were united. At the moment we are depending on a population of something like 2,500,000 to support the country, apart from the City of Dublin, Cork, Limerick and a few other provincial towns.
How are we going to solve this problem that I speak of? I believe in decentralisation. The Taoiseach talks about decentralisation, but what is happening? Whenever new factories are established we find them in Dublin and its vicinity. It is rarely, indeed that we read of a factory being opened in rural Ireland. While I am prepared to attach a whole lot of importance to agriculture, I often think there is the danger that Deputies attach too much importance to agriculture.
It may seem funny that a Deputy who claims to represent a section of the farming community should say that. You have Deputies saying that everything comes from the land. I admit that an awful lot does come from the land. There are some facts that we must bear in mind. Take it that the average family in rural Ireland is composed of seven persons. One remains on the land, so the other six have to seek employment elsewhere. How are we to provide employment for them? My argument is that there is a necessity for a balanced economy and for the development of industry. The only remedy that I see is in the establishment of heavy industry, for which we have not the necessary raw materials.
It is questionable, I think, whether a proper survey was ever carried out in regard to our mineral deposits. I do not believe an honest survey has ever been carried out. I wonder if we could rely on, and trust, those who were accredited with the task of carrying out those surveys, even within the life-time of the Governments that we have had since this State was established. Maybe I am wrong, but I have reason to believe that it is doubtful if we can rely on those surveys. I do not want to speak disparagingly of thegentlemen who carried out the surveys. but yet I am rather doubtful. I cannot understand why this country, as well as England and Wales, should not have the iron and iron ore which are needed for heavy industry. If we had such an industry we would be able to provide employment for our men.
When one travels through the County Mayo and the Province of Connaught one has not to be told that he is travelling in the West. You know that the moment you cross the Shannon. You know, because you can see how backward it is compared to other parts of the country. You can see immediately that it is a neglected and distressed area. The roads are very poorly constructed. There has been a lot said about the West—how its beautiful scenery attracts tourists. If the roads in the West were properly reconstructed the work would provide employment for thousands. At present the work is carried out in a haphazard manner. Machinery, such as steamrollers and crushers, is brought to a certain point, where a sum of in or about £2,000 may be spent on reconstructing a section of a road. The work stops, as no more money is available, and the machinery is taken away a distance of ten or 20 miles. Perhaps in three months' time it is all brought back again to finish the job when another £1,000 is allocated for that purpose. I suggest that method leads to a great waste of money, time and fuel. When a road reconstruction job is undertaken, it should be completed and not have all this moving of machinery from one place to another. I am of opinion that road reconstruction in the West of Ireland is being carried out in a wasteful manner. There is the wastage of fuel, the wear and tear of machinery and of capital outlay. If this work were properly organised it would provide considerable employment for workers in rural areas, particularly in the West.
I often wonder how it is that the British Government an employ hundreds of Irishmen on the reconstruction of roads while our roads are so poor in comparison. There is no comparison between the standard ofour roads and the worst type of road that you get in England or Wales or Scotland. I have travelled in all three of them by road and rail.
Then we come to drainage. Look at the number of men you would employ in drainage. While I am prepared to respect the opinions of engineers and to recognise the fact that they have been in the university and given particular study to drainage, I think that the Government should also have a little say in things, and should not be swayed and led by the decision of the engineers. I think it was Deputy Giles who mentioned that when the Minister for Agriculture goes across to Great Britain he must bring his experts with him, and we have often been told here that the Ministers have no say and that it is the civil servants who do it all. What are we going to do? I think the Minister should have the final say in any agreement. If a practical farmer like the present Minister for Agriculture or his predecessor would not know what the farmers require in the way of a trade or an agricultural agreement, how would a man from Merrion Street know? He might be able to supply the Minister with statistics and returns but from the practical point of view I think the Minister should know best.
I was told only a short time ago, in reply to a parliamentary question which I raised on the Adjournment— and on which I am not going into detail now—concerning this question of drainage in an area in which I am very much interested and where if it were carried out it would make available for production thousands of acres of rich fertile valley—I was told it cannot be done, that the engineers said that it could not be done and that it must wait.
I asked the former Minister for Agriculture, Deputy Dillon: "Who advised you to spend £60,000 on Lough Gara? Was it the engineers?""No," he said, "it was myself. If I waited for them, the Lord knows when it would be done." I who live adjacent to Lough Gara know that the blowing-up of that rock and the underpinning of the bridges opened up the way fortaking away all the water that was flooding West Roscommon and East Mayo, and there was no danger of flooding the valley down below Lough Gara. It is now very questionable, after hearing the Parliamentary Secretary, whether or not that catchment area will ever be drained. Apparently it will not happen until the Shannon is done. There is no hope of doing the Shannon at the moment, and it would cost between £10,000,000 and £15,000,000.
The question of the flight from the land arises, and is affected by Government policy. The flight from the land is due wholly to the fact that the land is water-logged, and no longer economic, and incapable of enabling people to eke out a living. The young men who are growing up now are not going to try to work land that is not productive because when you sow seedoats it heats, and does not produce; when you sow potatoes they become rotten; the water cannot get away from the seed. Anything they do will be in vain. The cattle will not do well because they are eating sedgy grass and they get murrain and other diseases. This is all for the want of drainage. I cannot see how it is that this Government—and I believe there are Deputies behind the Government's Front Bench who are as anxious to see this country prospering and going forward as any Deputy on this side of the House because I meet them and I know that they come from small farm or small business stock. I cannot understand a strong, organised Party like Fianna Fáil with very determined Deputies in its ranks not pressing the Government—and I would not mind what threats they would use on the Front Benches—to expedite drainage on a large scale, and in a much lesser time than what has been happening in the past four or five years. It is essential and they know it if we are to save the situation.
The flight from the land is no doubt a very big question. I remember speaking over there in 1943 or 1944 when I had the honour of first being elected to this House as a comparatively young man. I gave my reasons for the flightfrom the land. One was drainage; another was farm out-offices; another was dwelling-houses. I advocated rural electrification then. I advocated bathrooms and toilets in rural dwellings, because, having been away from home, I knew what drove people like me out of Ireland. It was not because we loved John Bull but because the condition of things at home forced us out of this country. There are thousands of Irish people in the suburbs of London, Manchester, Liverpool, Glasgow, Edinburgh and Cardiff to-night who would be only too willing to come back if conditions prevailed that would give them reasonable security, even at a much lesser wage than they are earning at the moment. But the conditions they desire are not here. They are forced to remain where they do not wish to be and where they are insulted day after day, in the factories, in the mines and in the coalfields. I experienced that and put up with it. Many a time I had to hang my head in shame.
I advocated, back in 1944, the need for adequate dwelling-houses, designed and constructed from a modern point of view. I know that the girl who goes to work in the factories in Great Britain or in a factory in Dublin before she marries is not going to go to a thatched cottage in Mayo. She expects her husband on the land to provide all these modern amenities to which she became accustomed in the city. That is where we are lagging considerably behind. Let no man in this country tell me that we have not the capital. The money is here. In relation to population and size this is the richest country in the world.
Deputy Major de Valera talked about the problem of financing capital projects. He is one of the Deputies who seem to have given the matter keen study and he knows that all this talk about problems of financing capital projects is tommyrot. There is no need to talk about money at all. It is a very simple business to finance these projects which will provide employment for our youth.
I have said that we must speed up drainage, road construction, land reclamation and the division of land. As I was travelling between Ballymahonand Mullingar with another young man who did not talk a lot, I could see thousands of acres of land that could be divided. Yet I heard Deputy Blowick tell some of his executives in Mayo that the land pool was getting small; I heard Deputy Derrig, the present Minister for Lands, and even Deputy Seán Moylan, when he was Minister for Lands, also talking about the scarcity of land. When the present Minister for Education, Deputy Moylan, was on the run, while fighting for this country, and Deputy Derrig also, they must have travelled much of the country. They know the country. They know that if that is the view of the inspectors and of the Land Commissioners, it is not our view, and though that may be the view of their advisers, they do not really believe it themselves. There are thousands of fertile acres that can be divided and there are thousands of men who would be only too glad to come back to 50 acres of land, a nice home and decent out-offices. Those young people would be a benefit to this country; they would be a potential source of wealth. They would help the present Government and the present Minister for Finance in relation to the finances necessary for capital projects if they were here cultivating and working the land that is now derelict.
Every Sunday the Sunday Independentpublishes details of a big castle somewhere in Ireland, with a big estate attached, and all they are worrying about is for fear these castles would be destroyed. Who built these castles? Who lives in them? The heirs of the men who made the tenant farmers of this country eat out of their hands and suffer every indignity which a human being could be forced to suffer. Now there are some who mourn the passing of these castles with their thousands of acres of fertile land. Why are not those lands divided amongst the men who would be glad to cultivate them? Did we ever think that an Irish Government would sit idly by and permit what is happening to-day? Is not all that contrary to the ideals of the men who fought and died so that we could keep our youth at home and provide them with decentlivelihoods in their native land. That is a question to which I would like an answer.
What has brought about the change of mentality on the part of the Taoiseach and those who constitute the Government? I remember as a young boy back in 1927 reading the papers and listening to the speeches and I honestly believed then that this nation would be a worthwhile nation and a worthwhile country in which to live when I reached manhood. I admit the Government has made efforts in certain directions, but there are many things they have failed to do. I think they realise that themselves, and in their declining years they are more apologetic than anything else because of that failure.
This Government will have to take some steps to arrest the trend of emigration by the division of the big estates and the parcelling out of the land available amongst those who will work it. Steps will have to be taken to make it possible for farmers and prospective farmers to cultivate the land and increase production by the provision of cheap fertilisers. Ours is a small little Party. It may be insignificant in the eyes of Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil, two big Parties that have a lot in common and who are battling for the reins of Government day in and day out. I often ask myself if these two Parties are really serious about the things they advocate or is it merely a battle of wits to see who will sit on the left-hand side of the Ceann Comhairle? I would not like to sit in judgment on either of them, but time will show where sincerity lies.
When I was first elected a member of this House I felt it was a great honour. I am the son of a migratory labourer, a small tenant farmer. My only educational qualifications were seventh standard in the national school. I did not think I would win, but I did win. After ten years here I am disappointed to-day to hear Deputies still arguing day in and day out as to what happened in 1922, opening up old wounds, when there are big problems to be solved.
What is happening to the youths whowill have votes to-morrow? I think most people now would be glad if this House got together irrespective of political affiliations. Would it not be a good thing if men of the calibre of Deputy Larkin and Deputy Dunne, with their social views, associated with the present Government just as they successfully associated with Fine Gael and Clann na Talmhan and Clann na Poblachta not so very long ago. What is to stop us forming a national Government, truly representative of the people and the country as a whole?
We have five problems confronting us. We have the problem of Partition; the resuscitation of the language; unemployment, emigration and the division of the big estates. If we solved these problems we would go a long way towards achieving the ideals for which the patriots of the past fought and died. Surely, we are men enough to combine in order to achieve those objectives. It is sometimes said that if we united there would be no Opposition and there would be no criticism. That, of course, is an utterly false premise because it is then we would have really constructive criticism. The business of the House would be conducted then in an atmosphere of reality instead of in an atmosphere of make-believe.
This is a season of peace. When I talk to my constituents they tell me that it is all right for me because I have a good screw coming in every month; if I point out to them that something has been achieved in the last 30 years, they tell me I am a fool; they ask me have I got into the same rut as the other representatives.
What is there to the credit of the Irish Government? "The shirt I wear, the suit of clothes on my back, the bicycle between my legs, the money I pay for the dance, the pint I drink were all earned in Great Britain." That goes for numbers of young men in Galway, Mayo, Sligo, Roscommon and a big portion of Leitrim. They have lost hope in this country. They have very little respect for an Irish Parliament or a member of that Parliament. They treat members withcontempt because they see very little being done to help them out. They are waiting anxiously to reach 18 years of age so that they can get permission from their parents to go away. We are doing nothing to change that position.
The Taoiseach may ask me what do I suggest. I regret he was not here during the course of my speech but there are a few things I have in mind which might help to remedy the present situation. Capital should be provided at a cheap rate so that the small farmer will be in a position to equip himself with the essential machinery and purchase fertilisers at an economic price. The present price of fertilisers is exorbitant. Every effort should be made to reclaim the land through the medium of drainage, the removal of rock and fencing. The land rehabilitation scheme should be speeded up. There are 8,000 applicants under that scheme in County Mayo. One-eighth of them have been dealt with. The balance, 7,000, are still waiting. In the neighbourhood where I live there are thousands of acres. The Government are embarking on a policy of re-division of these town-lands. It is waste of money. When Deputy Blowick was Minister I drew his attention to the fact that he was building Land Commission houses in a certain barony where there were not three acres of Grade C land, never mind Grade A or Grade B. Each of the house was costing £1,300. I told the then Minister that in ten years' time the houses would be empty.
I would suggest that model villages should be created in these areas and that the land should be taken over and used for forestry purposes. There are thousands of acres in Costelloe and adjacent baronies where the land is useless. The young men will not settle down in those areas. I meet these men at dances and at the cross-roads and in the pub. I am a mixer. One has to be a mixer to get this information. That land, if it can be described as land, is suitable for afforestation. We are building houses and providing grants out of public money. It would be much better to create model villages, having modern amenities, and to embark on afforestation on a largescale. That would be more economic and would give security of employment in these areas. If that were done, the young men in these areas would plan to marry and plan for a future.
I suggest as a means of helping the people in these districts, afforestation, migration to the Midlands, re-division of estates. There are thousands of acres of Mayo land in the hands of the Land Commission. Deputy Blowick, when he was Minister for Lands, acquired thousands of acres in Mayo.