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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 16 Jun 1954

Vol. 146 No. 1

Committee on Finance. - Vote 57—Army Pensions.

I move:—

That a sum not exceeding £982,940 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1955, for Wound and Disability Pensions, Further Pensions and Married Pensions, Allowances and Gratuities (No. 26 of 1923, No. 12 of 1927, No. 24 of 1932, No. 15 of 1937, No. 2 of 1941, No. 14 of 1943, No. 3 of 1946, Nos. 19 and 28 of 1949 and No. 23 of 1953); Military Service Pensions, Allowances and Gratuities (No. 48 of 1924, No. 26 of 1932, No. 43 of 1934, No. 33 of 1938, No. 5 of 1944, Nos. 11 and 34 of 1945, Nos. 7 and 29 of 1949 and No. 5 of 1953); Pensions, Allowances and Gratuities (No. 37 of 1936, No. 9 of 1948, No. 30 of 1950, No. 27 of 1952 and No. 4 of 1953); Payments in respect of Compensation for Members of the Local Defence Force (No. 19 of 1946 and No. 15 of 1949); and for Sundry Contributions and Expenses in respect thereof, etc.

Deputies will, of course, be aware that the main provisions in this Estimate cover service pensions under the Military Service Pensions Acts; wound and disability pensions, special allowances and dependents' allowances and gratuities under the Army Pensions Acts and service pensions and gratuities under the Defence Forces (Pensions) Schemes in respect of service in the permanent force.

It will be seen that the amount being provided in the Estimate shows a small decrease of approximately £7,000 on the provision made for the previous financial year. This arises, not from any decrease in the amount of the annual commitment under the various statutory measures, which commitment continues to grow, but mainly from the fact that provision was made last year for arrears in respect of the increases granted under the Military Service Pensions (Amendment) Act, 1953, the Army Pensions Act, 1953, the Defence Forces (Pensions) (Amendment) Scheme, 1953, and the Connaught Rangers Pensions Act, 1953.

The decreases which I have explained occur in sub-heads E, I, J, and M. There are two sub-heads in which substantial increases are shown— namely, sub-head F, relating to dependents' allowances and gratuities, and sub-head O, relating to special allowances to persons who served in Easter Week, 1916, to persons awarded meedals and to persons granted pensions under the Connaught Rangers (Pensions) Acts.

The increase of £13,094 under sub-head F arises largely from the enhanced allowances payable under Part II of the Army Pensions Act, 1953. This Part provides allowances at the rate of £250 per annum for widows, £180 per annum for parents and, in certain circumstances, £125 per annum for brothers and sisters of certain deceased persons who had pre-truce service and who gave their lives in the struggle of the 1916 to 1923 period.

The increase under sub-head O, the sub-head which relates to the special allowances, is due to the necessity to provide for the new cases which it is thought will qualify for the payment of allowances during the present year. The commitment under this sub-head continues to increase regularly and it is not possible to foresee when, or at what figure, it will stabilise itself. The other increases are relatively small. Those under sub-heads A and C arise from salary increments and also from salary increases which last year were met from the Vote for Increases in Remuneration; those under sub-heads G and H arise from the fact that the cost of the provision and replacement of surgical and medical appliances to pensioners has increased, as has also the cost of hospital treatment while those under sub-heads K and L are caused by the increasing expense involved in the travelling of applicants and witnesses attending for examination under the various Acts and also in having applicants for benefits under the Army Pensions Acts medically examined by outside medical practitioners and specialists, etc.

The foregoing brief outline of the factors causing the increases and decreases in the different sub-heads will, I trust, be helpful to Deputies, and if any more detailed explanations should be required I shall endeavour to give them.

It may be no harm if I mention, in particular, the question of military service pensions. In round figures, about 20,500 fresh applications and petitions have been received since the enactment of the Military Pensions Act, 1949. As at the 31st May last, the Board of Assessors and the Referee had reported on 15,462 of these—1,359 being favourable reports and 14,103 unfavourable. That leaves approximately 5,000 cases to be reported upon, not counting any additional fresh applications which come in as a result of the recent time extension authorised by my predecessor. I propose to ask the Board of Assessors and the Referee to expedite the disposal of these cases as much as possible. I think it desirable that the cases still to be dealt with should have the same principles applied to them as those which have already been disposed of and I propose, therefore, to allow the present phase to be completed under the existing system. I will then have an overall picture of the situation which will be of assistance to me in considering if anything further needs to be done.

Again, I only wish to make a few remarks on this Estimate. We have had from time to time statements, sometimes here and sometimes elsewhere, that justice is not being done to applicants applying for military service pensions. We had this afternoon a suggestion that there was something in the nature of huggermugger in relation to notifications in respect of pensions. I would like to put it on record that, as far as I am concerned, the Referee and the members of the board are men of the highest integrity. During my time as Minister for Defence I have had to examine complaints of one kind or another. On every occasion on which that examination has taken place I was fully satisfied with the conduct of the particular cases and fully satisfied that they were dealt with on their merits, and on their merits alone.

I have a recollection that the late Dr. O'Higgins, when introducing the 1949 Bill as Minister for Defence, gave as his estimate of the number of people likely to succeed under that measure as something in the region of 2,000. That figure has been very nearly reached at the present time. The figures quoted by the Minister show that we are within striking distance of that particular estimate. The estimate which the late Minister gave of the number likely to apply amounted to something in the region of 20,000. That figure has been exceeded. I think that the volume of disapproval in relation to the decisions of the board comes mainly from the class of applicant who applied under the 1949 Act.

As a means once and for all of killing these mean innuendoes I would suggest that the Minister should have an inquiry into the conduct of the board. That inquiry should be a well-conducted legal inquiry, and I am certain that the decision of that inquiry would be such as to kill, once and for all, the suggestions which have been made inrelation to the decisions arrived at by the board.

I have nothing more to say at this stage. The Minister has little, if any, responsibility for this Estimate and, therefore, it is unnecessary for me to discuss it at any great length.

I want to bring to the Minister's notice one or two cases of soldiers who had given practically maximum service to the Army and died rather unexpectedly. Their widows claim that their deaths were due to something that happened to them during their period of service in the Army. I am informed that one man got severe wettings while on manoeuvres and died. The Department of Defence sent a letter to these widows containing phrases that were used by the British Government in the early days of the war to the effect that the death of the deceased was not caused by any action which took place in the Army and was not aggravated by any work done in the Army. On these grounds, they refused to give to the widows the pensions which they thought they were entitled to. I am asking the Minister is it right to send out a statement like that to a widow saying that her husband's death was not caused or aggravated by service in the Army. I suggest that the position should be reversed, and that the onus should be on the Army authorities to prove that death was not caused by Army service instead of asking the widow to prove that it was, especially when they can produce evidence that things did happen in the Army to hasten the death of the soldier.

There are about half a dozen cases of this kind which took place in the last year. A reply of the kind to which I have referred was sent to the widow in each case. I would ask the Minister to review these cases. If death was aggravated by Army service, then the matter should be investigated. If doctors differ, I think the widows should get the benefit of the doubt.

In dealing with the cases referred to by Deputy Byrne, may I say that there is no provision in the Estimate dealing with cases of death arising from disease not attributable to service other than during the emergency? I do not know why that is so. I certainly propose to examine the matter. I am aware that hardships have arisen. I propose to find out what are the valid reasons which prevent a person being paid in war time and not being paid in peace time for the same thing. It is rather peculiar.

Thanks very much.

There is nothing in the Estimate at the moment dealing with this, but I will have the matter examined.

On the question of military service pensions, there are two facts which arise out of Deputy Traynor's assertion. When the previous Government terminated or ended the granting of military service certificates in 1947, they said that every person who had service, and who was entitled to a certificate, had been granted one, that there could not be any more, that everybody was finished and that they were justified in winding up the board in 1947. When that statement was made there were many people in the House who were inclined to agree that the numbers who had been granted certificates of service were higher than most people expected. It now emerges that 1,600 odd have been granted certificates since, so that at least, on the face of it, a number of people were denied their rights prior to 1949.

Because they did not produce the necessary evidence then.

The previous Government asserted that everyone who was entitled to a certificate of service was granted one.

On the evidence submitted. The Minister cannot get away from that.

I am not getting away from anything. I am stating what the Deputy, and his predecessors in the Fianna Fáil Government, said. It has since been found that a number of persons entitled to certificates did not get them. Whether or not they are all entitled to them I do not know. That is another matter. My predecessor as Minister for Defence, the late Deputy Dr. O'Higgins, said that he thought the number of people who were entitled would run to about the 2,000 mark. He estimated that a certain number would apply, that a certain number, again, would be rejected, and that a certain number would qualify. Deputy Traynor very naïvely sets out that almost 2,000 people have got what the late Deputy Dr. O'Higgins suggested they would get. I think, again, that nearly 2,000 wronged people got them. I do not know that the Referee or the board will be one bit thankful to the Deputy for the suggestion that I should set up an inquiry into the operation of the Act by the Referee or the board for the purpose of killing rumours.

Killing mean suggestions that have been made even in this House.

I have spoken in this House and I have asserted that, as far as I was aware, the Referee and the board carried out their duties in an impartial manner. I am on record as having said that in the House over many years. I think there was no one in the House who knew as much about the matter as I did, and I now repeat that.

You were only one Deputy. There are 146 others.

There are a lot of people who, perhaps, talk from inexperience. That does not alter the situation. I am still satisfied that equality and fair play have been granted in the majority of cases.

How are you going to get over the problem, or how is anyone going to settle it? In any event, I propose, at an early date, to have the whole picture made clear to me as to the total number who were rejected and of those who were granted certificates of service. When I have that picture before me then I should like to have the board and the Referee dealing with as much expedition with the 4,000 or 5,000 cases that are now pending as they did with the 10,000 cases which were rejected in 1953/54. Is anyone going to tell me that they dealt equitably with that number when their case is that they can only deal with six cases a day on the one hand, while on the other hand they were able to deal with 10,000 cases in a crack?

May I intervene?

Would the Deputy allow me to finish? When the all-over picture is made that they can deal with these 4,000 cases as quickly as they did with the others, I will know what the situation is. I then propose to make a submission to the Government which I hope the Government will accept, so that we can end this question for all time, and so that these men will not only get fair play but will have the appearance of getting fair play without any question of partisanship or lack of appreciation of the services rendered by them, and so that the mean innuendoes to which the Deputy has referred will be eliminated for all time. It is not easy to do that. On reflection, it may be said that all this was due to causes over which I have no control and for which, I suppose, the Deputy had no responsibility either. The responsibility is on the time that we all lived through, in which the meanest possible interpretation was put upon the actions or services of many people of this country. Let us hope that when this thing is finished and that when I handle this situation in the particular way in which I think it should be handled that we will have got rid of all the nasty things that have been said from time to time.

Arising out of the Minister's statement, it is obvious that he is not aware of the fact that there is contained in the Act a clause which makes it mandatory on the Referee to reject any case in which there is not prima facie evidence. Therefore, it is not correct for the Minister to say that 10,000 cases were not given the examination that they should have been given, and when he talked about six cases per day I presume he is referring to six cases in which there was prima facie evidence and which the Referee must of necessity examine in a more minute form. But there is contained in the Act a clause which makes it mandatory on the Referee, without any other consideration, to turn down applications for the want of prima facie evidence.

That may be mandatory on the Referee and he has power to notify the applicant that it is his intention to turn down the case unless additional evidence is forthcoming. If I accepted the Deputy's statement that it was mandatory on him, it simply meant that the person who could write up a good case and initiate the claim—the good writer—was going to get through and the others would not.

I suggest that the Minister examine the section.

I understand it all right.

Vote put and agreed to.
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