Committee on Finance. - Vote 55—Wireless Broadcasting. – Dáil Éireann (15th Dáil) – Wednesday, 23 Jun 1954

Committee on Finance. - Vote 55—Wireless Broadcasting.

Minister for Posts and Telegraphs (Mr. Keyes)

I move:—

That a sum not exceeding £222,300 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1955, for Salaries and other Expenses in connection with Wireless Broadcasting (No. 45 of 1926), including Public Concerts.

This Estimate has not, of course, been prepared under my supervision. I shall, therefore, confine my statement to a factual presentation of the figures, with observations on the important broadcasting developments during the year in accordance with information given to me by the director.

Under arrangements made in a reorganisation of the broadcasting service in 1953 the sum to be provided for ordinary operations each year, that is, apart from the cost of equipment and other capital works, is the equivalent of the receipts from licence and sponsored programme fees together with a smaller sum representing the cost of staff transferred to broadcasting from the Post Office for administrative and accounting work. This sum is shown in sub-head A of the Estimate and this year amounts to £475,100—£469,300 from receipts and £5,800 the cost of transferred staff. The sum for equipment is provided by subsidy over and above receipts from fees and is settled each year with the Minister for Finance. The sub-head B provision in the current year is £11,600. The reduction of £133,400 as compared with last year is due to two causes. First, there was a sum of approximately £115,000 for the purchase of three new transmitters last year and secondly equipment to the extent of £50,000 is being provided for exceptionally this year in sub-head A as the full amount available under the approved formula in that sub-head will not be needed for ordinary day-to-day operations. This relief of the subsidy sub-head is purely temporary for the present year only as normal broadcasting developments are expected to require all the money from licence and sponsored programme fees in the coming and future years. The net decrease of £119,600 in the Estimate as a whole is due to the clearing of the bulk of the cost last year of the transmitters I have referred to and to an increase in the anticipated receipts from sponsored programme fees by £29,300.

I shall now refer to the principal developments that took place in the programme sphere during the year. The House has already been told that talks were given on the last Budget by representatives of the three larger Parties. A notable and very important extension of that type of broadcast was the introduction of a scheme of general election broadcasts during the recent election campaign. The Director of Broadcasting offered time between 10.00 and 10.15 at night on 15 nights in the three weeks before the election date and the Parties themselves arranged the allocation of the number of talks for each Party and the order of speaking. The talks were recorded for the convenience of the speakers and to ensure accuracy of timing. Beyond that the Director of Broadcasting did not, of course, exercise any supervision or censorship. The scheme was very successful from the broadcasting point of view and Comhairle Radio Éireann and the director would like to thank all the Parties in the House for the support and co-operation they gave among themselves in the allocation of the talks and with the broadcasting authorities in the general arrangements for recording. The scheme had to be considered hurriedly at the last moment. The Parties had necessarily to be somewhat rushed in their consideration and the implementation of the scheme imposed a severe strain on the broadcasting machinery. At the same time the scheme was well worth all the effort that had been put into it.

The Comhairle and director were given authority recently to remove the ban that existed on the engagement of Deputies and Senators in ordinary broadcasts, that is, in broadcasts which are not political. It will not be necessary to consult the Parties about such engagements. The services of any particular Deputy or Senator will be requested by the director in the ordinary way for any broadcast for which his qualifications are considered to be particularly suitable.

Another recent innovation which is not concerned directly with political broadcasting but involves controversial discussion is a series of programmes entitled "Press Conference". In these programmes the heads or other chief representatives of important national organisations or functions, as, for instance, An Tóstal, come to the microphone and discuss their enterprises with interviewers who subject them to a form of questioning or cross-examination. These programmes have proved highly interesting.

The Director of Broadcasting has held three inquiries of a national character over the past year to ascertain the listeners' tastes in broadcasting programmes. These were carried out with the valuable assistance of the Central Statistics Office in framing the questions and compiling the results and with the generous assistance of the Post Office in the "field work". A summary of the results has been published and I need not refer to them here in detail. I should say, however, that despite what has been heard from time to time in the past—perhaps it was said rather facetiously—that listeners in this country pay their licence fee for the privilege of listening to the B.B.C., the three inquiries disclosed that listening to Radio Éireann heads by a large margin listening to any other station. That is what one would naturally expect but it is very good to have it proved in a national inquiry. I am glad to know also that Irish traditional music holds a high place in listeners' tastes. To satisfy this demand the director introduced programmes like "Take the Floor", a medley of Irish music and song and even Irish dancing.

It was announced already in the House that the broadcasting time had been extended by half an hour per day from 11.00 p.m. to 11.30 p.m. Since then the Sunday time has been extended by three hours from 2.30 p.m. to 5.30 p.m. We now have on most Sundays a continuous programme from 10.30 a.m. to 11.30 p.m.

The Radio Éireann Symphony Orchestra has continued to give twice-yearly series of public concerts in the Gaiety Theatre, Dublin, and bi-weekly concerts in the Phoenix Hall to which the public are admitted free of charge. The orchestra continues to co-operate with the Dublin Grand Opera Society in the production of opera. Provincial tours have been undertaken by the orchestra and an interesting tour planned for the autumn is one to the Six Counties which includes concerts in Belfast and Derry. The Light Orchestra continues to provide light classical music, céilí music and music for variety.

In the news section of the station the most important development was the recent addition of a sub-editor with special responsibility for the improvement and extension of scope of the news in Irish. A second sub-editor will also be added to the Irish language section during the next few weeks. The first result of the strengthening of that section has been the introduction of a news broadcast in Irish on Sundays containing world and provincial news and news features.

Facilities for news collection and preparation in English have been improved by allocating a sub-editor specially to look after provincial news. A notable advance also has been the appointment of a full-time staff reporter in Belfast to augment the news collection arrangements in the Six Counties. Up to now the broadcasting station has been depending there on local news correspondents engaged for fees on a message basis. They will still continue to be employed.

The House has already been informed of the purchase of three new transmitters. The first two transmitters have now been installed and are in operation in Dublin and Cork. The new high-power transmitter for Athlone has been received but, unfortunately, owing to difficulties experienced by the Commissioners of Public Works in connection with the erection of an extension building for it, the transmitter is not likely to be in operation before the spring of next year.

As regards the immediate future, no large-scale developments have been planned and the comhairle and director are concentrating on the detailed improvement of the organisation with a view to the production of still better programmes. The broadcasting day now stretches over a reasonably long period and within the existing studio and office accommodation it is not likely that very much further extension in hours can be made. A choice between simultaneous programmes has been given to a large section of listeners from time to time by giving separate transmissions from Athlone and from Dublin and Cork, particularly on Sunday afternoons. This practice will be extended as much as possible.

I shall finish by making a brief reference to general broadcasting policy. The broadcasting reorganisation which was brought into force on the 1st January, 1953, included the appointment of a comhairle to function under the Minister but without special statutory powers. The Minister remains legally responsible for all broadcasting activities. The Minister announced to the House, however, that he would refrain from interfering in broadcasting matters except where major policy was concerned, and he asked the Deputies, on the other hand, to refrain from raising matters of broadcasting detail in the House.

Wide financial powers were delegated by the Minister for Finance to the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs for the operation of the broadcasting service. I am informed by the chairman of the comhairle and by the director that these somewhat far-reaching changes have meant an immense improvement, first of all, in the facilities for the staffing and the daily running of the station and, more important still, in the freedom for broadcasters to express opinions on controversial subjects without allegations of Party bias. These developments appear to me to be on right lines. As the House will understand, at the same time, I have not yet had an opportunity of making any but the most cursory examination of the broadcasting service and I cannot, therefore, commit myself in any way to expressing an opinion as to whether further changes might be desirable either in detail or in a major way.

I am informed that the staff of the station, many of them newly recruited, have pulled their weight fully during the year in providing the public with programmes of as high a standard as the talent and resources of the country permit and that the honorary Broadcasting Advisory Committee continued to give valuable advice to the Minister on general broadcasting matters. I wish to thank all of them for the services they have given.

Mr. Childers

As the service of broadcasting is more or less non-political in character I hope that all members will continue to show the same helpful attitude as they showed to me during my period in office, that the Minister will be allowed to proceed with the development of the broadcasting service undeterred by political prejudice. Indeed, I recall that during the last three years Deputies on both sides of the House showed an extremely co-operative criticism with very, very few exceptions.

I should like to take the opportunity also of congratulating the members of the comhairle of Radio Éireann and the director on the good work they did. As the Minister has said, under present circumstances Radio Éireann is administered under his authority by a comhairle. There has been a great increase of freedom available to those on the staff in the preparation of programmes and also in the delegation of financial powers. I hope that the Minister will consider in the future whether the present half-way house of organisation, whereby a council administers Radio Éireann directly under his authority, should not be extended to a full incorporation of Radio Éireann in the form of a statutory service.

One of the principal objectives in any broadcasting organisation is to have various types of staff, staff that can be changed frequently and staff that have a gift for making a perpetual contribution to broadcasting which will form part of a permanent corps for administration, and then persons working on the basis of contract in a purely temporary capacity. In the case of an organisation like Radio Éireann, as in that of a theatrical production association, an opera company or a newspaper, it is essential to have a wide measure of variation in planning staff. At the same time, I feel that incorporation is inevitable if the full development of Radio Éireann is to take place. I feel also that the question of providing some sort of retiring pensions for the permanent members of the staff should engage the attention of the Minister.

I hope that the Minister will be able—I am sure he will be able—to maintain the political impartiality of Radio Éireann. During the last three years, the criticisms of the political features of the broadcasts were always very few in number and were gradually becoming less and less as people became accustomed to hear different political views expressed freely over the air. The Minister will find enthusiasts on both sides of the House detecting bias in a programme where, in fact, no intentional bias occurred. He will hear criticisms from both sides of the House based on the general concept that 50 per cent. value should be given in any type of political report in respect of each side of the House, but he will find that sometimes a 50 per cent. balance is impossible, and that it generally can be corrected, not in a period of 24 hours or a day, but over a considerable period. He will find that the news officers are able to provide a political balance.

I trust that the Minister will go ahead with the second objective in connection with political Party broadcasts, namely, the institution of broadcasts during the autumn and winter months on the same basis, and in the same proportions as far as the Parties are concerned, as we had during the general election, whereby the public can hear over the air a detailed analysis of Government policy and of Opposition policy. The proposal was that there should be some ten broadcasts between October and March, assuming that no general election intervened, in which the representatives of the Parties would be able to play the same part as they played during the general election.

I hope that the Minister will examine, as soon as possible, the question as to whether the G.P.O. is a suitable place in which to conduct modern broadcasting. I think that about 23,000 cubic feet of the G.P.O. building is utilised at the moment for broadcasting. The Minister will be informed by the staff, and by those in charge of Post Office administration, that for an efficient postal service the whole of the building would eventually be required for the accountancy section of the telephone branch and for the accountancy section of the Post Office Savings Bank. A site is available for a radio building. We are the only country in Europe without a modern radio building. That seems to me to be an inevitable feature of the future, and I should say that the cost in relation to the total capital development of the State, would not be excessive. I think it is inevitable that the Minister would be advised by the Minister for Social Welfare and the Minister for Local Government that a certain amount of unemployment is likely to take place in Dublin from time to time, the relief of which would provide an opportunity for creating certain public amenities such as a radio building and a Post Office sorting office. The provision of such amenities, which are essential, would play a part in the maintenance of employment in the building world, as well as a much better radio service, since we would then have our own radio station.

I hope also that the Minister will give attention to the prospects of television which appears to be as inevitable as the motor car. I think it is true to say that in every small country in Europe, regardless of financial difficulties, some progress is being made in regard to television. The Minister will find available to him a major report on the immediate prospects, and the difficulties of the problems involved in an Irish television service. Apart from what the critics have to say about its social disadvantages, television would seem to be a source of entertainment and education, and to be also of great value in combating the wave of Anglo-Americanisation which is spreading not only over this country but every country.

I hope that the Minister will study this most elaborate and painstaking report on the general problem which he will find ready for him. If he will examine the future of the Radio Éireann organisation, as to whether it can stay in its present state of half-way between proper incorporation and the old system, as well as the project for a radio building, and at his leisure —not with a view to any immediate change—the prospects of television, I think he will be rendering a good service to this country in so far as the maintenance and development of our own culture and our own institutions are concerned.

Mr. Desmond

Last year I and many other Deputies when speaking on this Estimate, drew attention to a certain point which we considered needed attention. It was not, of course, political. It was a problem affecting reception in some of the south and south-west seaboard areas. I am sorry to have to say that the problem still exists, and so I should like if the Minister would convey the remarks which I have to make to those concerned. Our people in those areas would like to enjoy the programmes from Radio Éireann. Like Deputy Childers, we are approaching this subject from a completely non-political angle. I am satisfied that the angle from which we should approach it is the one in which we are all interested, namely, the true nationalistic viewpoint. We want our people to be able to enjoy the programmes from Radio Éireann. People, I suppose, will never be satisfied with those programmes. No matter how good they may be, you will find the critics and the cranks. As far as I am concerned I believe that the last Minister for Posts and Telegraphs did his utmost as regards broadcasting to improve the standard of the programmes going out on the air for the people of this country. I believe, and I am convinced that what I say is true, that the present Minister will do his best to see that the programmes going out from Radio Éireann will be good programmes, as good as this country can afford, but in order to enjoy them properly the problem of reception must be taken into consideration.

I was involved perhaps in another little problem last year and I made it clear that I did not wish to have to be involved in any more than was necessary and I am not going to go over it again except to say that I believe it to be my duty to say what I believe to be true. And I believe it to be true to say that for the past 12 months the announcers of Radio Éireann have in my opinion been of an excellent standard in their speech over the air. I believe it is only right to compliment them. As far as I am concerned I believe it is not alone how we here in this country will hear the announcers speaking over Radio Éireann that is important, but how people in other countries will hear them when they switch on a radio and get on to the station without hearing any station announcement naming the station and may not be aware that it is an Irish station or that it was, as it were, the shop window of this little country of ours. In my opinion the importance attaches to the approach and the tone of the announcers whose voices go out on the air not only to people at home but to people beyond our own country. That is of importance to us and I would wish to congratulate those who for the last 12 months have given to the people the news and the announcements over the radio.

Finally, I would say to the Minister that there was one point I hoped I would hear from him. I appreciate, of course, that he is, as it were, barely inside the door of his office, but I would like to know what is happening as regards a suggestion I made last year. Again, I believe that when the Minister at that time replied to the debate he made it clear that he was interested, and so was the Director of Broadcasting but so far we have heard nothing about the possibility in a Christian, Catholic country of getting the family Rosary broadcast over Radio Éireann at night. We are at a stage at the present time when we can hear from the B.B.C. and the continental and American stations nothing but materialistic conceptions and news bulletins containing nothing but reports of hydrogen bombs and atomic bombs.

Cannot we, because we are related so much to a history of which we are proud, give something to these countries? Why can we not, while they are speaking of war, speak of peace? Is there any way we can do it more efficiently and more satisfactorily than by starting in this particular year to broadcast a family Rosary? Let it be the big family of this country of ours and let those in England, America and elsewhere know that while we here may differ politically, thanks be to God, fundamentally we can, instead of talking about war, show that it is more important to try to bring about peace. Let us give that contribution to those countries which this country is entitled to give and which it should give.

Mr. McGrath

I am sure the Minister is aware that there is a new school of music built in Cork and that it is proposed to have a new broadcasting station in connection with that school of music. I was one of the Deputies who approached the Minister's predecessor some time ago with a view to getting an orchestra in Cork, and the Minister might notice that there are three Cork City Deputies all very interested in the matter and we did impress on the Minister's predecessor the need for an orchestra and we came away very hopeful and without any doubts that in the near future we would get an orchestra in Cork.

Now, I am informed that there was actually a studio orchestra in Cork from 1927 to 1930 and that the Cork station provided Sunday night broadcasts for Radio Éireann at that time. Not only was this orchestra the same size as the Dublin studio orchestra but every six weeks or so a full orchestra of about 40 players was engaged for the presentation of a symphony concert in Cork. We believe, with all this talk about decentralisation that we hear from year to year, that a good start could be made by transferring the light orchestra to Cork and it would be very much welcomed by the music-loving people in Cork. It would be a great help—I understand from those people—towards improving production of grand opera in the city as I believe that this light orchestra could be used in connection with it. We have had several very good attempts with local companies in Cork to start grand opera but they are always handicapped by the fact that they could not get a local amateur orchestra up to the standard that was necessary to produce those operas.

From what I know of the present Minister, I believe that it will not be his fault if anything is done to interfere with the hopes of his predecessor, and I am sure that, as a Munster man, he will be anxious to decentralise as much as possible in his Department, and that he will help to decentralise in other Departments as well.

I was not here last week, but I was very glad to read in the papers the fine tribute he paid to the former Minister, and that is only what I would expect from the present Minister for Posts and Telegraphs. While I know him—and that is for a very long time—he has always acted fairly and justly as far as it lay within his own power. So I would ask him to make every effort to insist that we get the light orchestra in Cork in connection with the broadcasting station which was going to be instituted in connection with the new school of music. I understand it was hoped to have this functioning in the autumn of next year, and on behalf of the people of Cork, I would strongly appeal to the Minister to do everything in his power to bring this about.

Mr. T. Lynch

I should like to make a few observations to the Minister, and to offer a few suggestions, with the object of securing an improvement in certain broadcasting features. The Minister expressed pleasure that broadcasts of traditional music were being continued. Generally speaking, they have been a source of pleasure to me, and I am sure to the whole country, too, but some of these broadcasts do not contribute very much to the pleasure of listeners. Some of the instrumentalists or groups who broadcast traditional music produce rasping and discordant sounds. In my opinion, many of them do not know the true airs of the tunes they are playing. I think more care should be taken so that when anybody offers to broadcast traditional music, the director or the officials of the broadcasting station would make sure that he is able to play it properly. I would suggest also to the Minister, that there should be more outside broadcasts, that the microphone should be taken into the theatres and concert halls in Dublin and throughout the country, so as to give the Irish people an opportunity of hearing what is going on in our theatres and concert halls.

I do not know very much about television, beyond what I have heard from friends of mine in England and in America. Some of them look upon this country as a place of refuge in this world of television. They consider that American social life has been changed, and not for the better, by television. They tell me that if you go into a saloon for a drink the barman will "shush" you, pointing out that there is something on in the way of a game of baseball, or some speaker whom he may want to hear, and you are not welcome in the saloon at all. I just want to mention that matter so that when the Minister has the report in his hands, he will consider all these factors.

I am not as yet used to the rules of this House, but I would ask you, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, to bear with me while I pay a compliment to the former Minister for Posts and Telegraphs. I was in this House when the present Minister for Posts and Telegraphs brought in his Estimate and I was impressed by the businesslike manner in which Deputy Childers dealt with it. I was impressed also with his opening statement when he said that the Minister is only doing now what he or anybody else would do if he were taking over the Department in the same circumstances. I hope that his Party will follow his example. It was a gentlemanly and a sporting gesture and I wish in my maiden speech in this House to compliment him on it.

Mr. J. Lynch

It was a pleasure to listen to my namesake, Deputy Lynch, paying a well deserved compliment to Deputy Childers for the manner in which he administered his Department and, in particular, the broadcasting services side of the Department. I think the whole country has already acclaimed, and has been doing so for almost two years, the improvement that has taken place in wireless broadcasting in this country. I think the former Minister can claim a large share of credit for that. It would be wrong, of course, to give him all the credit because the comhairle which was set up, either during or before his time, can also claim much of the credit for the improvement to which I have referred.

I believe that, with the new Minister, that improvement is bound to continue. We are certain here on this side of the House that he will bring to bear on the problems that will present themselves to him, as Minister responsible for broadcasting, a very fair-minded outlook, and that the good reputation that the broadcasting service has from a political point of view in this House will be maintained.

I had also intended to deal with the subject to which Deputy McGrath addressed himself, namely the establishment of a light radio orchestra in Cork. Deputy McGrath did not fully state the case when he mentioned that the former Minister had given every encouragement to the deputation from Cork that met him during his term of office. The fact was that he went further, and that, at the opening of the International Choral Festival in the City Hall, before ever a general election was mooted, he announced that it was decided in principle to provide an orchestra in Cork, or, at least, the nucleus of an orchestra around which a full orchestra could be built, to serve permanently the radio station which is being built in Cork. I feel certain that the present Minister will not do anything to interfere with the plan to that end, and that with the provision of that alternative broadcasting station and that alternative orchestra, the standard of broadcasting will be further improved.

I want to make only a few remarks with regard to the general programme of Radio Éireann. I agree with Deputy Desmond that the standard of the announcers in the past couple of years has improved tremendously. It is seldom now that we experience the jarring notes or the jarring tones we heard in former years from radio announcers in this country. The introduction of special features for particular periods of the year has also found many new listeners throughout the country, but I would suggest that, in some cases at least, these features are being retained rather too long and that the retention of them tends to make people tired of them rather than win increased listener support. I believe that in the case of the most popular features, a shortening of the engagements will tend to increase support for them and to increase interest among the people who listen only casually to them.

I do not think there is anything else I need say because I know the Minister has not had, as yet, a full opportunity of examining the administration of this particular branch of his Department. I shall conclude, as the former Minister concluded on the main Estimate, by wishing the Minister well in his new office.

Mr. A. Barry

I want to join with both Deputies Lynch in the tribute paid to the outgoing Minister. I think we are all agreed that the standard reached by Radio Éireann during his administration was very satisfactory. The new Minister has a difficult task to maintain that high standard, but I hope that, if possible, he will improve it. The emphasis in our broadcasting should be on quality. I hope the Minister will resist any pressure that is brought to bear on him to lower the standard of our broadcasting. Talks, discussions, the drama and, particularly, music, reached a very satisfactory and good standard in the last two or three years and we all hope to see that continued. In a small country like this quality should be the important thing in a broadcasting service.

I would like to have had more good music from Radio Éireann, but I am grateful for what we had for the last few years. I regret the very low quality, bad quality, of the music sent out on the sponsored programmes. I would give it as a businesslike tip to those sponsors that they might find that the broadcasting of good music would pay dividends.

The symphony orchestra progressed very satisfactorily and here, I think, the Minister must resist pressures that will be brought to bear upon him. Undoubtedly, we will have to import, for the present and the near future, foreign musicians. It is very important that a high standard has been set; that it is very desirable but it is nationally important that it should continue in future. It is our hope, of course, that Irish musicians will be available to take the place of any foreigners now employed, but let us make sure that whatever music is sent out is of a very high standard and very well played.

The provincial broadcasts by Radio Éireann Orchestra were a very useful development. Wherever the orchestra went it stirred up a musical activity that was of great benefit. One aspect of that in Cork, and I think in Limerick also, that was very valuable, was the children's concert. That did more good than we in this House can now measure. All the pleasure that an adult gets out of listening to good music is nothing compared with the marvellous opening up of a new world to the child when he first hears good music.

With regard to the projected orchestra in Cork, I hope the Minister will be very co-operative. It is a development that will cost nothing and I think the only snag in the way now is the provision of guarantors for the concerts that would be arranged by that orchestra.

Another item to which I would like to refer is the publication of programmes. The current publication of an item in the daily newspapers is practically useless. We will have to get something a little more detailed. If I want to find out now if there is some piece of music being broadcast to-night by Radio Éireann to which I would like to listen I do not get that information from the newspapers; I do not get it anywhere. I am not sure how far the director has gone with the development of the idea of publishing a journal but, if that is too ambitious, something in the nature of a typewritten duplicated sheet should be made available to listeners. It could be done on a subscription basis and posted to listeners for 5/- or 6/- a year, just to cover the cost of postage. It would be a good thing to do.

The detection of radio interference is very unsatisfactory. I do not want to mention details but I have knowledge of cases where the machinery that exists for tracking down interference caused by household appliances, and that kind of thing, has been, at the very best, inefficient.

We have been very pleased with what Radio Éireann has done for the last two years. I hope it will continue. I hope the Minister will insist on quality being the keynote.

Mr. MacCarthy

The influence of the radio on both domestic and general life in a nation is growing so important that any time that is devoted by this House to a discussion of its development and of the programmes is very usefully employed. Even though from time to time there have been controversies about features of various kinds, as there always will be, the development of the radio programmes in the past few years has given general satisfaction.

I must make some reference to the attention which the previous Minister gave to the general development and the standard of our radio programmes and to the success that he in great measure achieved. It was with much pleasure that I heard the Minister this afternoon giving an account of the policy which he intended to continue and pursue and develop in the course of his Ministry and his authority over that particular Department.

This country has been referred to as a small country. Let us remember that there are countries in Europe which we do not call small countries, the area of which is no bigger than the province of Munster or any other Irish province and whose development in these matters is based principally on their history and their national life and economic development. When we are catering for our people we should base our programmes on our history and on our national effort and endeavour in a great measure while not excluding many features from the music and history of other lands which would serve as encouragement and enlightenment to us. There must be a blending, because music and everything associated with it have an international flavour. At the same time, we must not forget that we have national music and a history which should be an inspiration to the rising generation.

Owing to the influence of the cinema and radio our people perhaps become too absorbed in international matters and pay too little attention to what is fundamental in their own civilisation. I was very glad, therefore, to hear the Minister this evening speak of the development as far as the national language is concerned. The national language, national music, and national games all pertain to our own land. It is a pleasure to see the development of the Irish language in town and country over the past few years and to praise the effort of those who organise feiseanna, choral festivals of various kinds and school concerts in order to try to bring about a national development in the rising generation which will preserve the things that are best in their own nation. It is a delight to go into the City Hall in Cork when the schools programme is on, to hear the children talking Irish, singing songs in their own language, and all the rest.

Deputy Anthony Barry referred to the concerts by Radio Éireann Orchestra for school and college children. One of the best features of that is that Professor Fleischman, who has done so much for music in Cork City and district and in the university itself, is able to go there and explain in the Irish language the various features of the items which are being played by the Radio Éireann Orchestra. He brings into it something native and fundamental when he is able to explain to the children in the Irish language the various features of the pieces which the orchestra is playing. It is a delight indeed to have these orchestral performances in the various cities. It may be looked upon as a loss sometimes because it takes time to build up a taste for the type of music they sometimes play, but the volume of support is growing and as the years advance it will grow more and more and the concerts will have a very excellent effect on the local people and on their taste for music if they are continued.

It is not necessary for me to say much about the development in Cork which in future will extend I am sure to other cities, the principal cities at any rate. The incorporation of a broadcasting station in the new school of music is a development which is most desirable. Until the new school is built, to prepare for the day of its opening and for the development which will come subsequently local effort must be stimulated, but it must also get some help from the central body who control Radio Éireann, because the people all over the nation pay their fees for wireless licences and, just as in any other walk of life, they look for a fair distribution and all the talent that they get together will serve to promote musical appreciation. That is being met in some measure by the tours of the Radio Éireann Orchestra. But there must be something more permanent if we are to have local radio stations and alternative programmes. We must have locally the nucleus at least of an orchestra encouraged by local development which will give that alternative programme.

Travelling around the country is very expensive and contributions can be made to the development of the musical tastes of the people and the variations required in that regard by having those local orchestras and by seeing that they will not only serve their own particular areas but the surrounding districts and the other cities until orchestras can be built up in those cities to give these concerts, with variations by visiting orchestras.

I should like to join with Deputy Barry in what he said with regard to a matter I mentioned here before on more than one occasion and that is the sponsored programmes. They are appealing to the Irish people to buy Irish products in many cases, but they are doing it through the medium of the vilest foreign music they can collect. The whole thing is out of place. If they are appealing to the Irish people to support Irish manufactured goods, at least they should take more cognisance of what Ireland has produced in the past and what she has preserved and use what has been preserved for the entertainment of the Irish people. I would not listen to these sponsored programmes and I am sore other people would not listen to them because the standard of music, if it can be called such, does not and should not appeal to the native tastes in this country.

We have complaints sometimes that the rising generation do not know enough about our own history, that stress is laid on what is happening the world over. The newspapers feature wars and rumours of war, and the less desirable features of what is happening abroad. I think that Radio Éireann should have some feature such as used to appear in one of our papers under "This Happened To-day," and give some kind of outstanding event in our history daily or weekly for quarter of an hour. I appreciate very much the plays, operas and operettas based on features of our history and phases of our national culture. They are very excellent and will be improved as the years go by.

I would say about the Irish language —I am sure the Minister and his officials will take notice of it—that until our people get a better knowledge of the language it is more desirable to have short features whether for the children or for adults, varied but short and inspiring. They should be brief and make one point, so to speak, of some kind or another, and that should be stressed. In that way, the radio will help to develop our national life, and when the people tune in to our radio they will know that it is the national radio and that it features Irish life and intends to train our people, as far as possible, in the highest features of our culture and national development which have come down to us.

Mr. A. Byrne

I entirely disagree with the last speaker who introduced the only jarring note into the discussion. He has complained about the sponsored programmes. I think these programmes are splendid. They go out of their way to cater for all classes. They are presented by trained people, and you will find that people listen-in specially to these sponsored programmes because they know they will get a good selection. The Deputy has been a bit harsh on those responsible for trying to cater for all tastes. All the people have not the same tastes, and by listening-in to these programmes they get a fairly good selection. They can be improved, of course, and I should like to see them improved, but I feel that the sponsored programmes are giving us of the very best and that they are catering for different types of people. As we have not all got the same tastes, they have a difficult job.

I rose to repeat a statement which I have made on previous occasions. The phrase "Radio Éireann" does not convey very much to people outside our own country and I would ask my colleagues to support me in asking for "Ireland Calling." That would claim the title "Ireland" for this country and would emphasise that claim to the world. A lot of money was spent, long before new boards came into being for tourist development, to advertise the word "Ireland," yet we have been changing the name, using Saorstát Éireann, Radio Éireann and Irish Free State. I earnestly hope the day will come when we will again claim the right to the word "Ireland" and use the phrase "Ireland Calling."

Seosamh Ó Cinnéide

Tuigeann gach duine agus gach tír an focal "Eire" ar fuid an domhain. Tá cúpla rud le plé agam sa cheist seo an craobacháin. I want to advocate two things in connection with broadcasting. On national occasions like St. Patrick's Day and Easter Week, we should get the full orchestra of Radio Éireann, augmented if necessary. We should also have— as was attempted once before—massed choirs to broadcast, with the full orchestra, the national airs, properly arranged. We give a very wrong impression to the outside world by having the unaccompanied song which is a relic of the Penal Days. We give the impression that when we had full civilisation here there was no such thing as the harp or other instruments. The sooner Radio Éireann helps in getting away from the caoineadh of the Penal Days the better.

At one particular time we had a Scotch half-hour. My colleague, the former Minister, has told me that Scotch music is now included with the music of the world, which is given at a particular time in the broadcasts. In this debate, when a former Minister was in charge, I said it was a great help to us to have the Scotch half-hour because the Scotch ceilidhe band, to my mind, is about 50 years ahead of what we get in Ireland. Their timing and everything else is perfect.

I advocated a Welsh half-hour. That would do immense good in this country in improving our choirs and our taste for music, showing what could be done in choral singing.

I would place before the Minister a plea that on occasions like St. Patrick's Day, Easter Week and Christmas, we should have the co-operation of people like the Keating Branch of the Gaelic League and other musical societies and the full orchestra of Radio Éireann, showing the world our achievements and our possibilities.

Mr. McQuillan

I do not agree at all with Deputy MacCarthy's point about sponsored programmes. I am not completely in agreement with the sponsored programmes offered, they are not completely to my own taste; but we must remember that those who purchase radios and subscribe for licences have a say in regard to the programmes. Whether it is a matter for regret or otherwise, a large percentage of our people have shown in no uncertain way that they are in favour of the sponsored programmes. As long as this is a democracy, we must cater for the taste of the people in it. Every effort must be made to cultivate a taste for the best music, but there is no use in suggesting we should utilise all the available time catering for those gentlemen who can afford to sit down with a cigar between their teeth for half the evening to listen to Beethoven. Many of the people who listen are workers who do so between 1.30 and 3. Many of them have to work for their living in factories and other places, and like light music during this break.

The modern trend is such that light music is all the fashion. That has come about mainly as a result of machinery and such forms of development. If a person is used to a type of work in a factory, that conditions that person's mind to some extent afterwards and the type of music listened to will have something in common with the work. We cannot put the clock back. If we do not give them that music during the sponsored programme period, they will get it elsewhere. At night it is quite easy to switch to Luxembourg and get that light music or the jazz that some Deputies seem to dislike intensely.

One of the worst ways to go about educating the people into listening to good music is to try to ram it down their throats. Anything we try to do by compulsion has always failed. The sooner we make up our minds that compulsion is not the way to bring culture into the hearts and minds of the people, the better. One of the factors that has held up the revival of the Irish language and cultural pursuits is compulsion. I do not want to see the entire programme of Radio Éireann taken up with the more cultured aspects.

Deputy Byrne made a plea here which, I think, some people in the House were inclined to sneer at—that we should change the phrase "Radio Éireann" and use "Ireland Calling". That is not such a silly suggestion, although Deputy Kennedy remarked in Irish that everyone in the world knew what Radio Éireann meant. I guarantee that you will not have far to go outside the country to find people who have never even heard of it. We are inclined to think too much of ourselves and give the impression that the whole world has its eyes fixed on us all the time. We should disillusion ourselves on that point. From my knowledge of people, I would say that "Erin" is not understood in foreign countries except by a limited few. In the case of the ordinary person just listening in and catching the words "Radio Éireann", the words mean nothing to him. From that point of view the suggestion of Deputy Alfred Byrne is worth considering, and it might be quite feasible to adopt it at certain times.

There is a point I mentioned last year to the former Minister. I made it my business since then to keep in touch with the news programmes. Some Deputies will not agree with me. I believe that the presentation of the news here is very similar to that on the B.B.C. After hearing the B.B.C. I have often listened in to Radio Éireann and they have dealt with certain events—I will not say it was given word for word according to the British line, but the slant was there, the slant was exactly the same as given by the B.B.C. The former Minister did not agree with me on that. He was in a better position to know, as he had the advice of his experts, but I have knowledge also because I have listened specially to the news to compare the two broadcasts. If we are to hear broadcasts dealing with conditions in Africa, talks about the Mau Mau, the war in Indo-China or other events of world importance, I want to see the presentation of that news given in a neutral manner by our radio and not given along the line that is handed across to the British public. Surely it would not be very much for Radio Éireann to do that—unless they are actually going to take their news from the British sources exactly as they hear it.

I would also pay a tribute to the former Minister for the great improvement that took place in wireless broadcasting. It is not perfect and it never will be. Radio Éireann has to cater in the educational sphere and also has to give amusement and pleasure. It has to cater for so many tastes that the old phrase occurs to me: "Where you try to satisfy everyone, you end up by satisfying nobody." Radio Éireann has tried to satisfy as many people as possible and has tried to cater for as many tastes as possible. It has done a very good job as far as it could and as far as the funds allowed it to do so.

In conclusion, I hope the present Minister will continue with the good work. Knowing him as I do, and knowing the work he did when he was formerly a Minister in the previous inter-Party Government, I am sure he will put the same energy and enthusiasm into his work in this new Department.

Mr. O'Malley

First of all, I would like to wish the Minister—he being a Limerick man like myself—the best of luck in his new office. I would draw his attention to the racing results from Radio Éireann, that we do not get the S.P. figures of Irish racing. I would like this given in the first and last news. I would also like the Minister to consider including the English racing results, together with the S.P. figures for them. These things are features of our life—football pools, racing and matters like that—and it is of the highest interest to know, particularly if we have an each-way treble, what the odds are on a certain horse.

As an anti-climax, I would ask the Minister to consider the question mentioned by Deputy MacCarthy, a programme, "This Happened To-day" or "This Happened This Week". I would like a programme for schools, or, at least, given at a time when school children could listen, dealing with the period 1916 to 1921. There would be nothing controversial in that —I stop at 1921. Nowadays the children—and even the people of 19, 20, 25 and 35—are more conversant with the life of film stars than with Pearse, Connolly or McDermott. They are totally ignorant of what happened in that period. It is all very well for Deputy Kennedy and others to talk about national culture and music. We should have a national knowledge first of all—which is sadly lacking in the younger people. They talk about people coming into Ireland. The Minister must agree that he himself has often heard strangers comment on the fact that they have discussed certain aspects of Irish history with members of the younger generation and have been appalled at their lack of knowledge.

Regarding the suggestion by Deputy Byrne, to use the phrase "Ireland Calling", that is reminiscent of another station in the recent past. I agree in principle with the suggestion that the word "Ireland" should be used at certain specific times, as Deputy McQuillan mentioned. However, is it necessary until such time as we obtain the short-wave station? Until then it would be completely superfluous. Finally, I again wish the Minister the best of luck in his new office.

Mr. Keyes

At the outset, I would like to say how appreciative I am of the discussion that has taken place upon the Estimate. There was a very generous contribution from all sides of the House in a sincere effort to build up and to improve the service. That discussion has been, and will be, very helpful to me in guiding the steps I take in trying to maintain the present standard and improve on it. I have been very new to the job, and yet I have been able to see there is a good standard at present in Irish broadcasting. These suggestions which have been coming from various parts of the country, and various parts of the House, will be helpful to me in my discussions with the director in trying to improve the standard and make it as high as we can possibly afford.

In response to the points raised, I may say our programme is a wholesome programme and in its efficiency it can hold its own against the bigger stations of other countries. In material it is a wholesome programme for the Irish people and has no comparison. I am glad to find that that has been appreciated in the national inquiry conducted recently by the director, when we found the Irish people responding in great measure and appreciating the Irish programme as against any programme outside. That speaks for itself, for the wholesomeness of our programme and the wholesomeness of our listeners. I shall strive to continue on those lines and try to improve it and to give effect to some of the suggestions made this evening.

First of all, I think there is no question about the unsuitability of the building. It has been agreed for many years that the G.P.O. is not a suitable broadcasting premises. There is the question of getting a suitable site, getting the money, and so on. The outgoing Minister, Deputy Childers, has been giving this his attention. There was a site already in contemplation, but obstacles came in the way and it was through no fault of Deputy Childers that we have not a new broadcasting station now. That does not obviate the necessity. There are problems that must be faced and overcome. We need a broadcasting station, as the G.P.O. is, in the experts' opinion, quite unsuitable.

If and when we come to build that station, having got the necessary finance and having got over other difficulties inherent in that question, we will have to give some thought also to television—I did not speak about it to-day—and include that in the Estimate. We cannot ignore the fact that television will come. Personally, I am not inclined to make speed or hurry with it, as I believe we can get on without it at present and there are other and more necessary things than television. We can drag on without it for another while, but we cannot ignore the fact that it will come. If and when we are building a broadcasting station, we will have to make provision for a television station also.

Deputy McGrath raised the question of the Cork station. I have been interested in Cork as Deputy McGrath well knows and I raised a question, when Deputy Childers was Minister, as to why more use was not being made of Cork. As we in Limerick had nothing nearer than Cork to us, I was anxious to have greater use made of the Cork station and short as I have been in office I have discussed the wider use of this station.

The question of the orchestra came up for consideration as well. The question of the orchestra is a difficult one. There are several angles to it that must be faced. There are questions of standard, quality and availability of suitable persons for positions. We have two orchestras, the Radio Orchestra and the Light Orchestra. They have reached high standards and if you are to have a third orchestra you must have a standard equal to that which we have already established.