Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 23 Jun 1954

Vol. 146 No. 2

Committee on Finance. - Vote 38—Local Government.

Minister for Local Government (Mr. O'Donnell)

I move:—

That a sum not exceeding £3,128,910 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1955, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Local Government, including grants to local authorities, grants and other expenses in connection with housing and miscellaneous grants.

The net amount provided for 1954-55 in the Vote for Local Government as published is £4,925,590. This represents a net increase of £334,300 over the amount provided in the Department's Vote for 1953-54, and in the Vote of that year for increases in remuneration so far as the Department of Local Government was concerned. In his Budget Speech, however, the former Minister for Finance intimated that the provision of £400,000 in sub-head Q would be transferred from the Estimates to the National Development Fund and, taking this into account, the net Estimate for the Department this year shows a saving of £65,700 as compared with the net figure for the previous year. Increases in individual items are mainly referable to the automatic growth of the statutory subsidies of local authorities' loan charges, offset to some extent by a reduction in the Transition Development Fund grants to local authorities for housing schemes and sanitary services works, this fund being still in course of liquidation.

In the circumstances in which this Estimate was prepared, and in the circumstances in which it is now being presented, I propose not to extend my speech beyond a factual review of the main services for which the Estimate provides.

By far the greatest item is the provision of £2,000,000 under sub-head I (3) in respect of grants to private persons, public utility societies and other authorities for the erection or reconstruction of houses for occupation by private persons. This amount is the same as that provided for the same services in the preceding year, and, to judge by the general trend of monthly payments in course of disbursement in the months since the beginning of the present financial year, it will be fully expended.

In the last financial year, 5,643 dwellings were completed by local authorities as against 7,476 in 1952-53; 7,195 in 1951-52; and 7,787 in 1950-51. The figures for dwellings in progress on 1st April, 1954, 1953, 1952 and 1951 are 6,416, 6,005, 9,526 and 10,222 respectively. The dwellings in course of construction in Dublin City together with those for which tenders were being invited on the 1st April, 1954, were 2,984 as against 3,173 in the preceding year.

I propose, with the assistance of my Parliamentary Secretary, to take every possible step to encourage the planning and construction of working class houses by the Dublin Corporation and also in Cork City where the housing programme is equally urgent. Apart from the special magnitude of these two city programmes and the need for removing as soon as possible any obstacles in the way of their speedy execution, I recognise that some of the decline in local authority housing output in other parts of the country is due to the completion of their housing programmes by some of the urban authorities and the approaching completion of the programmes in various county areas. There are, however, some areas where the needs are still far from being met and where, I am informed, there does not appear to be a sufficient realisation of the necessity for a more efficient and progressive tackling of the problem. A few counties are, I gather, in a rather unenviable limelight in this respect. We propose to give these areas special attention and, in doing so, we bespeak the co-operation of the local public representatives and of all others concerned.

Taking the over-all picture of housing output by both local authorities and private persons, the total number of new dwellings erected in 1953-54 were 10,750; in 1952-53, 13,291; in 1951-52, 12,416, and in 1950-51, 12,118.

One provision in the Housing (Amendment) Act, 1952, which was very welcome to me was that enabling a new type of grant to be made for the provision and installation of private water supply and sewerage facilities in dwelling houses. I understand that the number of grants allocated for the purpose over the past year has averaged about 44 per month. So far as I can stimulate activity under this head, I shall be very glad to do so. I propose to issue a special instruction to my housing inspectors that when they are consulted by persons in rural areas about to build or reconstruct houses, they should if at all possible make provision for the installation of sanitation which would qualify for these extra grants.

My predecessor allocated the bulk of the Road Fund income likely to be available in the present financial year in the same way as he had allocated it in the previous financial year, namely, £1,400,000 as a main road improvement grant; £1,700,000 as a county road improvement grant, £100,000 in grants for the reconstruction of certain important bridges, and a main road up-keep grant of 40 per cent. of the expenditure under that head by county councils.

Sub-head K contains a provision of £400,000 for grants to local authorities for the execution of works under the Local Authorities (Works) Act, 1949.

In the last financial year, work was commenced on 48 waterworks and sewerage schemes, while 61 schemes were completed. The schemes in progress in March last are estimated to involve a total cost of £2,688,895 as compared with £2,595,550 in March, 1953. The portion of the North Dublin drainage scheme, comprising the laying of the intercepting sewer between Finglas and Raheny, is almost complete. Considerable progress was made during the year on the detailed planning of the second section from Raheny to the proposed outfall at Howth. Work commenced last September on the construction of the foundation for the 60" pressure culvert on the foreshore at Sutton. The acceptance of tenders for certain sections of the culvert have been approved in the meantime, as have draft contract documents for the Howth tunnel.

Work is now well advanced on the North Dublin regional water supply scheme.

Approval has issued to the acceptance of tenders for Dún Laoghaire main drainage scheme. Proposals for the acceptance of tenders for sections of a joint drainage scheme being promoted by the Dublin County Council and the Dún Laoghaire Borough Corporation to serve the Foxrock-Killiney district are under examination.

Other important sanitary services schemes now being proceeded with include two contracts for the Kildare regional water supply, schemes 2 and 3.

An issue of £5,000,000 Dublin Corporation 4½ per cent. stock at 97, underwritten jointly by the Minister for Finance and the banks, is at present in course of flotation.

The net indebtedness of local authorities increased in 1953-54 by about £9,000,000, and at the end of that year stood at £93,152,807.

In reply to a parliamentary question last week, I stated that I was satisfied that there is a need for a more accurate compilation of the Register of Electors. Omission and mistakes cannot be rectified unless we get specific information about them. I wish, therefore, to bespeak all possible publicity for my appeal to public representatives and to the electorate generally for definite evidence of particular inaccuracies or omissions where they have occurred. It is of manifest importance that these should be rectified before the local elections, which are due to be held next year.

There will, I am sure, be other opportunities during the year for debates on various aspects of local government law and administration. I do not, therefore, propose to protract my speech on the Estimates by any more detailed review at this stage.

Mr. Smith

Things are happening here so quickly that I am sorry I was not in for the Minister's speech. I am sure that you, Sir, and all the rest who were here will be glad to hear that I have no comment to make on it.

Mr. O'Donnell

I am very grateful to the Deputy.

Mr. J. Lynch

I have had the benefit of listening to the Minister, but unfortunately I have not the same knowledge of the administration of the Department of Local Government as Deputy Smith has. However, there are a few matters to which I would like to refer with regard not only to the subject matter of the Minister's statement but to a few other small matters concerning the administration of his Department.

With regard to local authority housing, the figures for the current year do indicate a slight falling off in the number of houses built by local authorities. That, I think, has been pointed out before as being due largely if not mainly to the fact that almost half of the local authorities throughout the whole country have now reached or almost reached their building target. The Minister, however, saw fit to refer in particular to the difficulties that face the local authorities of Cork and Dublin county boroughs. It is unfortunately true that the same satisfactory position as applies to many of the local authorities who are near completion do not apply to either Cork or Dublin. I know more about Cork than I do about Dublin, and I urge on the Minister in so far as it lies in his power to expedite the completion of the Cork local authority housing programme. I am sure he will do so. His predecessor on meeting a deputation representative of the entire Cork Corporation and its senior officials indicated clearly that the provision of money for the solution of this problem in Cork was to be no bar to the progress made by the local authority's staff. I am sure the same will apply to the views of the present Minister for Local Government. Unfortunately, there are, I am sure, somewhere approaching 4,000 families in Cork in dire need of housing accommodation. The tempo of construction has been accelerated in recent years but unfortunately it lags far behind the demand. I think that each Deputy for Cork and each public representative in Cork will bear me out when I say that of every ten people who come for advice or assistance in a public capacity of one kind or another seven are people looking for houses. That in itself is sufficient indication of the big problem that there is before the local authority in Cork.

I am sure the same applies, possibly more so, in Dublin; but the solution of the problem there was largely retarded by the delay in carrying out the big main drainage scheme which, happily, has been overcome I am sure that the solution of the Dublin problem will be expedited, as well as that in Cork.

There is one peculiar aspect of the acceleration of local housing demands. I came across it in a country town very recently. During the period of the last inter-Party Government, the tempo of construction in this town was accelerated to such an extent that numerous skilled and unskilled workers had to be imported from outside the area. Ultimately, they got married in the town or they brought their families with them, and by the time most of these houses were built, those who were engaged in their construction were the people who took up residence in them, so that the housing problem in the town was not solved—on the contrary, it was made more acute. The slum clearance problem in that town was not solved, either, because there were not sufficient houses then available for the people living in these unhealthy dwellings. That was a peculiar aspect of the housing problem that presented itself to me only in the last year. I am sure it is one to which the Minister will have regard, but I ask him, on the other hand, not to let it weigh too heavily against his administration in regard to the main problems in Cork and Dublin.

With regard to private house building, there is only one point I want to bring to the Minister's attention. Everybody appreciates the job that is being done by private builders—"spec" builders, as they are often called—in providing a solution of the housing problem by building houses on the basis of a small deposit and comparatively low weekly outgoings. In Cork, we have a particular problem—I do not know whether it applies to other parts of the country—in that, when a housing site is taken over by a builder, purchased or leased from a landowner, and houses built, after some negotiation, I take it, with the town planning authority, in too many cases the road leading into the scheme or park is left for many years after in a very unsatisfactory condition. The local authority disclaim any responsibility for it. The builder himself is not liable for the proper construction and maintenance of the road and the landowner, the ground landlord, disclaims responsibility, too, with the result that the tenants in most cases are the sufferers. I ask the Minister to pay particular attention to that problem and if, by ordinance, by decree or even by legislation, a solution can be provided, I urge him not to hesitate to resort to it.

Another matter—it is very difficult at times to know whether it comes within the purview of the Minister or that of his colleague, the Minister for Justice—is the question of road safety. The time, fortunately, has come when there is a more progressive and enlightened outlook amongst those responsible for constructing and maintaining roads. They are building them wider and eliminating dangerous corners, and, from the economic point of view, too, a very welcome new development is the laying of a proper foundation for these roads which will obviate the necessity for too frequent repairing. As these roads are being straightened and widened, the danger to cyclists, in particular, increases.

Everybody who has the experience of driving cars on main roads in any part of the country will appreciate that at night it is almost impossible to pick out the cyclist cycling on the same side of the road as that on which one is driving against the oncoming lights of another motor vehicle. I have urged in this House before that the question of whether or not it should be compulsory to affix rear lights and not simply reflectors to bicycles should be seriously considered. It may be an imposition in so far as it affects the individual cyclist, but if the cyclist himself knew the danger he places himself in, with even the most careful driver coming behind him, blinded by lights, he will appreciate that it is an imposition put on him only in his own interests. I ask the Minister to have particular regard to it.

I am glad the Minister made reference to the compilation of the register and I hope he will give due consideration to the suggestion made by Deputy Briscoe last week that the card indicating a person's number on the register and the number of the register itself might be sent out at an early stage and not merely on the eve of a general election. That might be one solution, one means of eliminating the complaints that are heard only too frequently from all political Parties that many of their supporters are left off the register.

Finally, I hope the Minister will continue the special grant for the rehabilitation of certain roads in the Gaeltacht. I do not believe there is any danger of that grant being reduced or of any let-up in the carrying out of that Gaeltacht road programme. The Minister knows better than I do the value of good roads in these Gaeltacht areas, not only for the employment they provide but in giving to motor tourists in particular proper facilities for going into these most beautiful districts on our western seaboard.

There was a complaint made at the end of the first year of the administration of that scheme that certain county councils were using the grant for these Gaeltacht roads for the purpose of relieving the allocations out of their own funds to their own ordinary road development programmes. The former Minister and I had that investigated and found that there was no foundation for it, but I should like to impress on the Minister now the need for ensuring that these funds are used for the purposes for which they were intended—to put roads in the Gaeltacht areas, which unfortunately were neglected by the county councils, into a proper condition and to make them capable of bearing the type of traffic, motor tourist traffic, that we all want to attract, not only into the country generally, but, in particular, into these Gaeltacht areas. I compliment the Minister on his appointment and wish him the very best in his new office.

Mr. A. Byrne

I avail of this opportunity to repeat what I said last year, that I am of the opinion that the grants given by the Government towards the building of houses for the working classes are totally inadequate. Many members last year and the year before spoke about the inadequacy of the grants, especially in view of the increasing cost of building. The municipality raises money and has to pay heavy rates of interest for that money, and we feel that the Government should give us something more towards the cost of every house we build for letting to the people who are clamouring for houses in Dublin at present.

I suggest that the Minister should examine the desirability or the necessity of giving to the municipality the full grant in respect of houses built for newly weds. If the corporation has as an applicant for a house with a family of four children, they naturally give the house to that person. Then, there is the case of a person who might come under the heading of newly wed, with two children, one child or no children, and the municipality dealing with that type of person does have regard to the fact that the grant he gets for the building of what may be called a newly-wed house is not equivalent to the grant paid in respect of a house built for a family of four or six people, and I suggest to the Minister that the time has come when there should be a review of that position.

A very good Bill was brought in last year by the previous Minister, and, during the discussion on it, we expressed the hope that at a later date these points would be considered with a view to improving housing legislation as we go along. I mention it to the Minister now because he will be in charge of new measures or amending legislation to improve the position.

We had a draw for houses only a few months ago among about 2,700 newly weds, many, if not most, of them living with their parents. The local authority was not building for them at all. It is very wrong that there should be any difference in the grants made available for the building of houses for these very deserving people. The newly weds are not getting an opportunity for a good start in life. It is sad to relate that a young couple must have four children before it is possible for them to get into a cottage of their own. The number required for a corporation house recently came down to three children and if there is an exceptional or very deserving case—say, if a member of the family has T.B.—the corporation have been known to house that type. Often people write to us and say: "Must we wait till we get T.B. before we will get a house?" It is unfortunate that such letters should have to be written and I earnestly hope the Minister, in going through the legislation that has already been passed dealing with housing, will see his way to give a better grant to the municipality for the building of houses.

I would hope that the Minister, too, would encourage the Dublin municipality—I say "encourage", I do not want too much interference from his Department with our activities; I do not want to ask him to accept responsibility that we ourselves should take—to start to build up old Dublin on derelict sites that are available, property that we compulsorily acquired. We are going out to the outskirts of the city. Let me say that, from my long association with members of the corporation, I have found that they all strove to give of their best to see that houses were built for the people regardless of any political group. However, I do say that we are leaving old Dublin derelict; schools of the old granite type in the centre of the city are being left without their pupils; shopkeepers are losing their customers and the churches in many cases are losing their congregations. New churches, schools and shops have to be built in such areas as Walkinstown, Ballyfermot, Finglas and Cabra. I would ask that an extra grant would be made available to have all these houses in old Dublin reconditioned or, if they are not fit for reconditioning, that new houses would be built on the same sites, that is, blocks of flats. The corporation is doing that and doing it rather handsomely but, in my view, not quickly enough. I often wonder would it not be possible for somebody to arrange a tour for public representatives to see what has been done in the City of Dublin. New towns have been built up in the areas I have mentioned. Ballyfermot, one scheme alone, is as big as Blackrock and Dún Laoghaire.

As will be seen from this morning's newspapers, the corporation are asking for £5,000,000. The officials of the corporation, with the help of the Government, have done splendid work in the past, but I am anxious to put forward my own point of view in regard to rebuilding the old city. It is a great hardship on some working class people who have to travel many miles to their place of work. Take a North Wall worker; he is five miles away from the far end of Ballyfermot. The bus fare is 5d. from the near end and 6d. from the far end of that area. If he does that twice a day the bus fare alone is a handsome rent imposed on the man in addition to the high rent he is paying for his house. I hope, therefore, the municipality will be given an opportunity to build more flats and recondition more old houses in Dublin. In passing, I want to say that the former Minister, in his last Bill, made some fine improvements and expressed the hope that the new Minister would continue to make further improvements.

I will leave the question of municipal work and say a few words on private building. The moment a private builder puts up a house you will see it advertised in the newspaper requiring deposits ranging from £80 up to £150. The average outgoings will amount to 42/- a week and in most places you will find the ground rent is £12 a year, on one of these small houses that you see on the outskirts of the city. That unfortunate person, a newly wed, ventures out on his own and has this heavy burden of £12 a year to meet for the rest of his life. The valuation of these houses will be from £20 to £25.

I remember the days when £15 or £16 would have been considered a very high valuation. We are now living in an inflationary period and perhaps it is only natural that the official, seeing everything else go up, asks himself why should not valuations go up also? In practically all these new houses there is a remission of two-thirds of the rates for seven years. A large number of these new houses are now coming into the full rate and the young people are beginning to feel the pinch. Very often when the remission period comes to an end a new baby arrives to add to the liabilities of these young married people. It has been suggested that the remission period should be extended over 20 years.

I am satisfied that the Minister and his Department will consider all these points to see if anything can be done. I have been asked to put forward these views so that something may be done to encourage people to put down their own deposits and build their own houses. It is robbery to ask them to pay £12 a year, first of all, for a site. At the moment the corporation have completed some very fine houses at St. Anne's at Clontarf. Now those houses are fairly far from the centre of the city and the bus fares will be in the region of 6d. per journey. Some 25 or 30 years ago in London new houses were built 15, 20 and 25 miles outside the city and provision was made for special bus fares. In some cases free tickets were issued for the first five years. Would it not be possible to arrange here with our transport company some special fare when the municipality or private builders develop an area outside the city proper?

An Ceann Comhairle

I have not interrupted the Deputy and I do not want to interrupt him, but it seems to me the Deputy is now advocating a good deal of new legislation.

Mr. A. Byrne

I agree, but I only mentioned it as a sideline in relation to the difficulty of finding sites.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is very much a sideline.

Mr. A. Byrne

These things place an almost intolerable burden on the shoulders of the man who is trying to provide his own housing accommodation. Rents are too high. Rates are too high. These things will have to be remedied. Possibly the Government would be prepared to increase the grant given per house. So far as we are concerned, all we want is an opportunity of building houses at rents which the people can pay.

Mr. M.J. O'Higgins

I would like to compliment the Minister on his appointment. I know that at this stage he will not be in a position to deal with things in the detail that some Deputies would like. Like Deputy Byrne, I merely want to ask for his encouragement in one or two matters in connection with housing in the City of Dublin. I agree with Deputy Byrne so far as the Dublin Corporation is concerned—I say this in all sincerity both with regard to political opponents and political friends—I do not think there is ever any question of politics as between members of the corporation when dealing with municipal affairs.

I am a member of that body. I am not able to attend the various committee meetings with the same assiduity as Deputy Byrne and some other members, but there is no doubt the majority of the members of the corporation give a tremendous amount of valuable assistance in relation to the civic life of our city.

I want to call the Minister's attention to two anomalies. The first is in connection with a group of cottages known as St. Enda's Road, Terenure; the other is a smaller group, known as Riverside Cottages, Templeogue. It seems very odd that in the year 1954 we should have in the City of Dublin two groups of houses, or cottages, devoid of running water facilities. One of those groups is practically in the centre of the city. I know the corporation has difficulty in dealing with cases of this kind since it is necessary to seek a contribution from the tenants, either a direct contribution or a contribution by means of increased rents. It is not very easy to obtain agreement on such a matter when there are 40 or 50 cottages concerned in a scheme. I would ask the Minister, if there is any manner in which he can assist by way of grant or otherwise, to help the corporation to get over these difficulties because it is not right that in this day and year we should have practically in the centre of the city people living in reasonably good houses without any of the adjuncts, such as sewerage and running water facilities, to which everyone now feels himself entitled as a right. If there is anything the Minister can do to assist either of these schemes I would be very grateful to him if he would give that assistance.

Mr. McGrath

First of all, I would like to congratulate the Minister on his appointment. He displayed tremendous energy when he was on this side of the House and I hope that he will be just as energetic in the work of his Department.

It is only natural that Deputies representing Dublin and Cork should be concerned with housing more than anything else. I was very glad the Minister drew attention to the position in relation to housing in these two cities. I was very glad that he seemed to be aware of the urgent necessity for pushing on with the housing drive. Deputy Lynch told the House that when the previous Minister was approached by Deputies from all Parties about 18 months ago in connection with housing in Cork, the answer he gave to that deputation was that, no matter how fast houses were built in Cork, he would, while he was Minister, see that the moneys would be provided.

I have no doubt the present Minister will continue that policy and ensure that the people who are now living in bad houses will be removed from these conditions. We had an investigation into housing in Cork a few years ago and I suggested to the inspector in charge of that investigation that the first thing he should do was to go around and visit some of the slums to see for himself the conditions in which the people were living. Of course, he had his job to do and he did it.

Without casting any reflection on the two Ministers in the previous inter-Party Government, I want to say that housing progress in Cork was very slow during that period. That may have been the fault of the local officials in Cork. I can, however, say that we increased the number of houses built in Cork during the last three years practically threefold. That represents about 400 houses a year. But we have still about 3,500 families to house. About five years ago I asked a question as to how many applicants there were for houses, and the figure I was given was something like that which I have just mentioned. That reminds me of the man travelling along the road who, when he asked how far more he had to go to a certain place, was told that it was another mile. Having been told that many times, he said: "Thank God, we are not losing ground." That would seem to represent the housing position in Cork, because there does not appear to be any great improvement in the city although we are building an increased number of houses. There is an increase in the number of houses that are being demolished. Most of these tenement houses are in a very bad state of decay. When one of them is demolished, it very often means that seven new houses have to be provided. The result is that, I believe at the present rate of building in Cork we will not be able to overcome our housing difficulties for a very long time, that is, unless we speed up the provision of houses much more than we are doing at present.

I believe that a lot of delays that occurred three or five years ago were due to the fact that we had not enough officials in the offices of our city architects and engineers. We pressed on the manager and on the Department to get more assistant architects for the development of our plans for the new housing schemes and for the acquisition and development of land. During the past couple of years we have been in a much better position in that regard. I would ask the Minister to speed up the giving of sanction to housing plans when they are sent up to the Department.

Deputy Byrne spoke about derelict sites in Dublin. We have much the same position in Cork. We have submitted schemes for flats and for what the architects describe as two-dwelling residences, that is, dwellings with entrances for two families. In each case we were told that we would have to get a comprehensive plan of the whole area approved of before sanction would be given. We have overcome one of the difficulties in that connection fairly well, and hope that, in the very near future, we will have sanction to go ahead with building in the northeast area of the city. We have a place known as the Marsh which is down in the centre of the city where, for years, we have been trying to do some development. A great part of that area has been derelict for over 30 years. We have sent up plans for flats in that area. Clergymen and everybody else have been pressing us to try and put some people back in that area. We then got a request for a comprehensive planning scheme for this big area part of which is occupied by industrialists with warehouses, etc.

I do not think it is fair that we should be asked to hold up a couple of schemes for flats in a particular street until a planning scheme is approved of by the corporation. The matter was discussed at a meeting of the corporation last night. We decided to inform the Department that we wanted this scheme of flats in Grattan Street, and that we did not think it would be fair to the merchants and traders in that area to rush through a town planning scheme. We think it would be only fair to give these people an opportunity of studying a town planning scheme for the area, and of getting their observations on it before tying future corporations or future citizens to a particular scheme for the area, one which might not have the approval of those traders or merchants. I would ask the Minister seriously to consider giving his sanction to this scheme of flats that we want built there. I think it is about time we got some little bit of autonomy in the case of local authorities, especially as regards sanction for small schemes such as I have mentioned.

We have a number of derelict sites in the city, many of which are not cleared yet. We are anxious to clear them. We, like Deputy Byrne, do not want to be sending all the people out from the centre of the city. We know, of course, that we had to remove a certain number of them. We had to build in outside areas in order to house them. When, however, certain sections of these derelict sites are cleared, we should be allowed to build and so provide houses for people in these areas who, at the moment, are living under wretched conditions. I suggest that we should be allowed to build flats for them. We should not be asked to send them all out from the centre of the city where there are churches and schools and all other amenities. The Minister should not delay in giving his sanction until such time as the corporation are in a position to obtain the views of the people of the city in regard to other town planning schemes. I move to report progress.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.