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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 2 Mar 1955

Vol. 148 No. 7

Committee on Finance. - Vote 70—National Development Fund.

I move:—

That a sum not exceeding £3,000,000 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1955, for the National Development Fund.

The amount of the Estimate for the National Development Fund in the current year, ending the 31st of this month, is £3,000,000. The House will remember that my predecessor last year did not include in his Estimates as published any figure for this fund but preferred to leave the matter fluid so that the Estimate could be introduced during the course of the current year. The sum for which I now ask the House, taken with the £5,000,000 that was voted in the last financial year, will bring the total amount which is being paid into the fund up to the sum of £8,000,000.

The allocations which have been made from the fund to date, taking this year and last year, amount to £5,785,400. Perhaps the House would wish that I would give at least the headings under which those allocations have been made. They consisted of allocations to the Road Fund of £2,500,000; to projects under the Local Authorities (Works) Act, 1949, of £200,000; to an accretion of the Votes under the Special Employment Schemes Office, £900,000; to Gaeltacht projects, £250,000; to projects sponsored by the Department of Agriculture, £926,000; to projects sponsored by the Department of Industry and Commerce, £930,400. The allocation for the programme sponsored by the Department of Industry and Commerce was £930,400, and for projects sponsored by the Office of Public Works, £79,000.

If Deputies wish, I could give further details as to how these various sums are broken down within the various Departments.

Mr. de Valera

The more information the better.

The Road Fund allocation that I have referred to is for £2,500,000, consisting of an allocation of £1,000,000 for 1953/54 and £1,500,000 for the current year.

The Local Authorities (Works) Act allocation consists of £110,000 for this year and last. The Employment Office allocation consists of £1,500 for the year 1952/53 and £1,400 for the year 1954/55. The Gaeltacht allocation consists of £250,000. For projects, sponsored by the Department of Industry and Commerce the allocation is £930,400, consisting of £1,500 for a survey of the Moy estuary and £1,500 for a survey of roads works at the E.S.B. hand-won turf stations. A sum of £527,400 is agreed for Dublin Harbour and a sum of £400,000 in respect of grants for improvements to Cork Harbour.

For the Department of Agriculture the figure that I have given of £25,000 was allocated for fish farm developments; £33,000 for pig progeny testing stations; £40,000 for artificial insemination stations in the NorthWest. A sum of £150,000 is allocated for the provision of foundation stocks of seed. As Deputies know the scheme for the eradication of bovine T.B. is partly covered by an allocation from the Marshall Aid Counterpart Fund but apart from that £423,000 has been allocated from the National Development Fund for the eradication of bovine T.B. in Sligo and in the Bansha area which were not included in the counterpart fund arrangement.

Ten thousand pounds has been allocated for the provision of facilities for drying and storing onions in Kerry. In connection with the bovine T.B. scheme it is proposed to make a supplementary grant available for farm buildings and water supplies as part of the scheme. This is out of the National Development Fund. The sum is £30,000, and a further sum of £15,000 has been allocated for the provision of storage facilities for seed and ware potatoes. That makes £926,000 for the development of local projects.

I mentioned a sum of £79,000 for projects sponsored by the Office of Public Works. This is for a scheme of repairs to an embankment to prevent flooding in the Rossmanagher area of County Clare. These figures I have given total £5,785,400.

Mr. de Valera

Might I interrupt the Minister to ask him to give us new projects since the new Government came into office, projects that have been sanctioned as apart from those already provided?

Certainly, the second allocation I mentioned for the current year was approved on September 10th. I want to be quite fair about this; it had not been put through the machinery before the Government changed.

What Deputy de Valera is anxious to get and what we are all anxious to get are the schemes in addition to what had been approved on the 2nd June. The Minister when he answered a question gave figures which totalled £5,785,400 for the 30th June, 1954. There have been schemes amounting to £6,521,000 since the 30th June. Could the Minister tell us how many schemes have been approved?

All the schemes that were pending on the 2nd June by my direction were sent back to the members of the present Government to ascertain if the present Government approved of pending schemes. Those that were approved by the present Government consist of those that were sent forward again. The figures I gave Deputy de Valera a second ago were in respect of the date when they came forward again. The supplementary grant for farm buildings had not come before my predecessor as far as I can see nor had the scheme for the provision of storage facilities for seed and ware potatoes; nor the scheme for the Rossmanagher scheme, nor other schemes I have mentioned with the exception of the allocation to the Local Authorities (Works) Act for the current year. The road works scheme was not before my predecessor. The expenditure on these works, as the House can appreciate, is very slow to mature, on many of them, and the total amount paid out of the fund to date is only £1,500,000 approximately, notwithstanding allocations of over £5,750,000. The allocations, however, must be made, obviously, in their entirety, so that the House may be informed of these at the time the commitment is made and when an Estimate like this is being brought before the House.

I should perhaps add as to the future of the fund that the Government's intention is that it should be maintained in order to finance capital schemes of a productive character, that is to say, schemes which will directly benefit the national economy. In addition to that, it is intended that the fund should be drawn upon to facilitate the rapid expansion or the rapid acceleration of existing public works programmes, or to initiate new schemes of development with a high employment content, if and whenever it is considered that the unemployment situation so demands. The use of the fund in such circumstances would be aimed at providing an immediate fillip to employment and would be on a purely temporary basis. The replenishment of £3,000,000 I now suggest, having regard to the expenditure out of the fund in respect of the allocations which have so far been made, will leave a sufficient margin until the appropriate time comes to deal next year with a similar Estimate.

I should, perhaps, also mention that there are other projects at the moment being considered by the National Development Committee, but, with one exception, a small exception, they have not yet come forward from that committee to me and, therefore, I am not in a position at the moment to say in respect of these further projects which the new Ministers have sent forward what the ultimate decision will be.

It is rather unsatisfactory that the Minister did not set out in a better organised way exactly what has happened to this fund for the past nine months or so. He has told us that allotments now stand at £5,785,400. On 30th June, last, he gave an answer to a question here in which he gave us a list of projects which had been approved by the previous Government, which stood approved on the 2nd June and which amounted to £6,521,900. Perhaps when he is replying he would inform the Dáil as to which of the schemes approved by the previous Government have been cut out and what fresh schemes have been approved by the present Government.

When this National Development Fund was introduced, it was introduced for the purpose of dealing with critical masses of unemployment and the Government asked the Dáil to approve the expenditure to relieve a critical unemployment situation, without having to go through the usual procedure of getting Dáil sanction for each item of proposed expenditure to deal with that situation. The groups of Parties forming the present Administration were very vocal at that time, and indeed up to the change of Government were very vocal, regarding the two problems of unemployment and emigration. All during the election they made the welkin ring with their denunciations of the ineptitude of the Fianna Fáil Government in not creating full employment, in not arranging matters so that every person could have a job and be compelled neither to emigrate nor to register at the employment exchange. In addition, of course, they were to reduce prices by a very handsome amount, but these promises which they made to the people have melted from their memory.

The Minister to-day did not advert to the emigration which we know is continuing; he did not give us the unemployment figures which this fund is to deal with; and, instead of announcing reductions in prices, every day we get announcements of increases. During the election last year, the Minister for Social Welfare made a speech of which I happen to have a copy and it is typical of all the other speeches made by the members of the Labour Party, Fine Gael, and others. It is taken from the Independent of 30th April, 1954, and I propose to quote:-

"Jobs must be provided for those of their people who were ready and willing to work. No one could say that there was any scarcity of work when they knew that industry was not working to full capacity and that agricultural output had not reached its maximum. Why should they have 73,000 unemployed while thousands of houses were needed in town and country? There was plenty of work to be done and men to do it, but they still had the queues lined up at the labour exchanges and tens of thousands taking to the emigrant ship."

There was an indication that if the right sort of Government were in power here, if they used the resources of the country and gave the people a proper lead, there would be no necessity for employment exchanges, no need for anybody to emigrate and no necessity for such funds as this National Development Fund. We had been for a number of years endeavouring to create a situation whereby more people would be employed in factories and on the land and we found that, in spite of us, from time to time, when, due to either home circumstances or circumstances abroad, there was a decrease in trade, we got a very big increase in the number of unemployed, and we introduced this fund in order to deal with that situation, in so far as a Government can deal with it.

I have quoted the Minister for Social Welfare as saying there were 73,000 people unemployed when he spoke. The last figure I have for the total number of unemployed is 71,202. There is not a very great deal of difference in the two figures, but in recent months we have Ministers going around the country expressing their satisfaction with the trend of unemployment. Because the total live register is somewhat less than in the corresponding month last year, they have patted themselves on the back and everything is rosy in the garden. Now it would appear they regard a total number of people on the live register at the employment exchanges of something over 70,000, as a normal and not too unsatisfactory result. Is that the Minister's opinion and have the Government any policy for dealing with that situation, which they indicated to the people that they had when they were in opposition? There were quite a number of people led out on to the streets to lie down when the situation was in fact no worse than it is at the present time and we had all the Deputies here, Fine Gael and Labour, getting up in this House and condemning the Government for not doing something about it. But when we did bring in the National Development Fund they did not receive it very well. The National Development Fund had the effect of decreasing the number of people at the exchanges and increasing the number of people doing useful work. It proved a step in the right direction.

Even though the Minister for Industry and Commerce is very pleased with the unemployment situation, there is a feature of the unemployment figures that he did not advert to, that is, that the number of claims current is higher and has been higher for many months than it was in the corresponding month 12 months previously. On the 19th February, 1954, the number of men with claims current at the employment exchanges was 31,185, but in 1955, a year later, the number went up to 32,233. In the week previous, February 12th, there were 31,706 in 1954 and 32,389 in 1955. That shows that there is a deterioration among the people who are normally employed. We know that a number of people without means can get off the unemployment register in this country by taking employment in other countries and, unfortunately, I am afraid that that is what has happened to a lot of them. But these people who are in reasonably constant employment, the men with rights to unemployment benefit, their number has increased. If you look at any of the figures, I think, for these last several months, you will find that in 1955 they were higher than in 1954 in the corresponding month or at the corresponding date. Have the Government any policy in regard to this?

Deputy Morrissey, who is one of the principal spokesmen for the Government, once thought that if the people put out Fianna Fáil and put in an alternative Government, every able-bodied man looking for work could be put into employment in 24 hours. We did not expect miracles from the incoming Government—we knew they were fooling the people by their promises of miracles to come if there were a change of Government—but we at least would like them to advert to what they said and compare it with what they have done and to apologise to the people for having made promises that they had neither an intention nor a hope of fulfilling.

In addition to the projects which were approved by the Fianna Fáil Government there were long lists of others put forward by several Departments. Every reasonable person will agree that when we have a big number of people unemployed and a big number emigrating, instead of cutting down any development programmes we should extend them to the greatest extent the State can. State expenditure on capital development is no proper substitute for capital development by private individuals, but at least it is a palliative; and, if the money is wisely expended, good can result to the general national economy as well as the benefit of giving employment and wages to those who are seeking work. The Government have taken some steps in recent weeks that will have a longterm adverse effect on employment and on development. Their wheat policy, in my opinion, is absolutely disastrous. I do not know where we are to get the dollars to buy the wheat that we could so easily produce at home. We cannot jump up cattle production or production in the factories to replace within one year or even two years the value of the wheat grown on our own farms. It would take two good acres to increase the value of a bullock by £20 and on the same two acres we could produce two tons of wheat.

Is this in order?

The Deputy seems to be widening the debate very much by going into agricultural policy.

I do not mind, as long as I am allowed to follow on the same line.

We are getting rid of internal employment and going to rob the profits from our farmers and their children which would help to keep them off the employment exchange and off the emigrant ship. We are going to lose £60 of employment in wheat growing and turn the land back into grass in the hope of getting £20 additional for the extra bullock. Instead of the Minister cutting down on the projects for the creation of employment, the Government, if it wants to keep the situation from deteriorating, will have to add to them. It would be much better if they would follow a normal progressive policy rather than all this retreating to where they came from and to the policy that they so strongly advocated 20 or 30 years ago.

Nobody wants to see the necessity for a fund for dealing with unemployment. The only way out of it is that Governments coming along should not attempt to destroy the good features of their predecessors' policy, but should add to them and foster whatever schemes have not come to full fruition. It seems to me that very little has been done by this Government during these last nine months to push forward these schemes that we thought, after a very thorough examination, would do good work.

I missed certain schemes from the Minister's list that had been approved in our day. I hope they have not been killed outright because we want to do what we can to help the farmers to improve their situation. We want to help Bord na Móna along and we want to help the E.S.B. along. We want to help local authorities such as those in Dublin and Cork to improve their harbours. All these things will give employment in the right sort of way—employment that is natural and that will tend to be permanent. We hope that, either to-day or on some other occasion, the Minister will give us a complete list of all these projects. We hope he will tell us what has happened to the projects that were approved by the previous Government. We hope he will tell us what this Government proposes to do with the remainder of the projects and how quickly they will be put into operation.

I am sorry that when we are debating this National Development Fund there is only one representative of the Labour Party in the House, so far as I can see. We should be very glad if even that one representative would get up and say some of the things to the present Government that members of his Party said so loudly and so frequently when the unemployment situation was no worse than it is at the present time.

The Minister was very vague in outlining the Supplementary Estimate for £3,000,000, which is a very step decrease on the original amount which was estimated and put there away back in, I think, October or November, 1954.

The big difference between the present Government and the Fianna Fáil Government is that Fianna Fáil were always prepared to face up to the reality of the situation as it confronted them. They never tried to conceal the unemployment position in this country. In fact, it was Fianna Fáil who, in the early days of their administration, made it possible for many thousands of the names that now appear on the unemployment register to be placed there because, previously, only those who were in industrial employment and had their cards stamped were recorded as being unemployed when they were unemployed.

In my view, the National Development Fund was a project to be taken very seriously. It was a foundation not merely for improving the lot of many unemployed persons in this country but also for engaging in worthwhile projects which everybody knew were awaiting attention over a number of years but which could not be attended to in the ordinary way. This Government now propose to decrease the amount in respect of this fund. If the various members of this Government meant anything by their statements at the election and at the various by-elections, and if the promises that were made by the members of the Labour Party counted for anything, the Minister should now come to this House and seek not a Supplementary Estimate for £3,000,000 but a Supplementary Estimate for at least £7,500,000.

Last year, in this City of Dublin, there were marches by the unemployed. We were told the position was desperate. We knew, from the numbers on the registers, that there were thousands in this city who were genuinely unemployed. The position has not improved very much since then. The National Development Fund gave £200,000 to the Special Employment Schemes Office and Dublin Corporation did a great deal at that particular time to relieve the situation—a situation which, I hold, exists to-day too.

It would be interesting to know what the attitude of the Labour Deputies for Dublin City will be on this question. Will they accept it with good grace and say that the unemployment position in Dublin City has been relieved to such an extent that there is no need to have the fund kept even at the level at which it was first set out, that is, £5,000,000? Will they say that, as far as Dublin City is concerned, the £200,000 can be docked by two-fifths? The Cities of Waterford, Cork and Limerick, and other urban areas throughout the country, got an allocation of £100,000 from the fund last year. Are there no worthwhile schemes in Cork City, Limerick City or Waterford City, or in any of the other urban centres to which the allocation applied, at present needing attention? I am sure there are a number of such schemes not merely in the big urban centres, but also in various parts of rural Ireland.

It has recently been stated from time to time that employment has increased. Everybody is glad to learn that such is the case. I would point out, however, that, when this fund was established, employment was increasing—and increasing just as rapidly week by week as it has increased since the present Government took office on the 2nd June last. But the Fianna Fáil Government did not get any credit for that. They did not want any credit for it, but, as I said at the outset, they were prepared to face the reality of the situation. They knew that we had a critical unemployment problem; that it had to be tackled and that something should be done about it.

I am sure that the present Government knows equally well that that unemployment problem has only been relieved in a very small way and that it is far from solution. They know also, I am sure, as was realised by the previous Government, that there are very many worthwhile schemes in this country that in the ordinary way would have been placed in abeyance and that nothing was being done about them. They were considered, of course, but had to be put aside. From this fund over a period of years a good deal could be done to put them into operation and to repair to a large extent the decay of centuries and bring the country forward in the progressive way that we were being consistently pressed to go forward by those who now constitute the present Government and by their supporters on the opposite benches.

I think this is a very retrograde step altogether. I happened to be in charge of a particular office—the Office of Public Works—for a period and I always found my difficulty was to try and induce the Department of Finance to give me some fair amount of money and make it available for schemes that are crying out for attention all over the country for a considerable period of years. The only redeeming feature about the Minister's statement is that the fund is to be maintained. I suppose you could maintain it at £100,000 a year and still say it was maintained but that would be very far from carrying out the very essential and necessary work that we all know is waiting to be carried out in the country.

My office at that time—I think the date was the 22nd November, 1954— was told that £500,000 would be made available. As I have stated, £300,000 of that was allocated for employment schemes in urban centres. I have already mentioned how it was subdivided. We then had schemes and many questions were put down by the various Parties in the House time and time again as to why this rural improvements schemes, that bog development scheme or the other minor employment scheme in the congested areas was not being sanctioned or approved and when was it likely that approval would be given. I was asked to state very often what was the existing position. We had thousands and thousands of such schemes in the Office of Public Works. They were there for many years and the allocation of £200,000 to the Office of Public Works to expend, in addition to what was voted in the Estimate to me, was a real godsend because I felt it would bring amenities to a very large number of people all over rural Ireland, particularly in the congested areas, which they were long and eagerly awaiting.

The Minister stated that the purpose of the fund was to finance projects for increased productivity and to improve the economic position. That was the purpose at all times. Nothing can improve the economic position of any country better than to have as many people as possible in employment and earning for themselves. Anything else is, I am sure, a great burden on the economic fibre of the State.

The three schemes I mentioned are, I hold, schemes of a very reproductive and very helpful nature but it is only those who understand the problem locally who realise that. Of course, it is not realised, I am sure, in the Department of Finance. They do not know much about the difficulty of the cutting of turf in a bog; having it saved and depending on getting good weather to go into an old mud road to try and get it home. In consequence of having to avail of the very fine weather in the harvest period they lose some of their agricultural crops as well.

That happened very often in many parts of the West of Ireland. Indeed, I was very keen on this bog development business. I was very keen on getting all the money I could extract from the Department of Finance for this very particular work because I knew quite well that our farmers could cultivate more and they could produce more when they realised that, having saved their turf in the bog and having a good road made into the bog, they could take it home whether the weather was wet or dry. I think there is no better way of helping the people in the bog areas of Ireland and the people who depend on turf for domestic use than to improve both the drainage of the bog and also the roads into it.

The same is true of a number of our village roads. The rural improvements scheme, which was initiated by Deputy Paddy Smith many years ago, was also a great godsend to our farmers. If they co-operate and come together and put up their proportion of the estimated cost, they are then sure of getting a road to their houses that they never enjoyed before. In many instances the roads have been improved to such an extent that people in the villages are now living alongside roads which are just as good as many of our country roads maintained by the local authorities.

We got £75,000 for the rural improvement schemes; £60,000 for the bog development schemes and £60,000 for the minor relief schemes which are operating in a portion of about 12 of the Twenty-Six Counties. What will the position be now? Will the same expenditure on these very worthwhile schemes be made available during the coming year as was expended in the last year Fianna Fáil were in office— the financial year 1953/54?

I would like the Minister, when replying, to give us some indication in that way that instead of a diminution, if anything there will be an increase, but I doubt it very much. Knowing the Department, as I do, I believe that the economy axe will first fall on some of the very worthwhile schemes and as a result will deny to the people the amenities that Fianna Fáil was doing its utmost to give them.

It is indeed rather sad to think that after all the fine phrases we had and all the fine promises that were made, that instead of doing something better than Fianna Fáil—and that was the slogan, mark you, in some of the cases, "anything you can do we can do better"—there is not much sign of improvement in that direction now. A very prominent public man in the country—I do not think he can be regarded as a supporter of Fianna Fáil —said quite recently in regard to another matter that the Government "had gone mad." Well, mad as they are in that direction, I think they have become far worse now in respect of the present Supplementary Estimate.

Perhaps he went mad.

It is not the wheat ranchers now—if we had any such— that are being knifed, but the poorer sections of the population of this country into whom the dagger is being driven as a result of this economy which came instead of the promised reduction in taxation and the maintenance at the same time of essential services and the giving of better times to everybody.

I would not like, of course, to call a division on it, because I suppose a half-loaf is better than no bread, but at the same time I would feel very much like challenging a division and putting it up to the Labour people to say where they stand, to say whether they now stand for the workers of Dublin, Cork and Waterford and other cities, whether they now approve of the hunger marches and the other things we heard so much about in this House. I would like to put it to them now to see if they approve of this when it is bound to create more hunger marches because of the unemployment it is going to cause in the various cities and towns, or else make them eat their own words. That is why I feel like calling a division on it but as I said, half a loaf——

Do not let me dissuade you, Deputy.

——is better than no bread. This curtailment of and interference with the National Development Fund is scandalous as far as the Government is concerned, and I cannot see how on earth any conscientious men having made the promises they made, can attempt to justify it either in this House or in the country.

When in December, 1953, the Fianna Fáil Government introduced the first Estimate or vote for the National Development Fund, I felt that this Dáil was beginning to have put before it a new approach with regard to certain problems which would meet with general acceptance which the Dáil itself would indicate by the manner in which the proposal was received. I felt very proud to be a member of the Party the Government of which introduced this National Development Fund understanding fully what was behind it. But then we experienced in this House an opposition to the introduction of the National Development Fund so characteristic of the Fine Gael Party of those days— and I intend to make certain quotations from the debate of December 18 in order to bring back to mind— certainly of the Minister for Finance— what actually took place and what was said.

First of all, there was a complete lack of understanding on the part of Fine Gael and I would say it probably exists to-day. It is impossible for any Government to be able at all times to guarantee full employment because circumstances and conditions—over which they sometimes have no control whatever—bring about changes which result in disemployment and what might be called consequently the unemployment situation. Here was a new approach, an approach whereunder the Government would have at its disposal a substantial amount of money which it would make available either through its own Departments or through the local authorities in order that they could design, plan, and have available schemes to put into effect for the employment of the unemployed, differing only in numbers as the circumstances demanded, but schemes which would be financed to the greatest possible extent by this fund provided there was a substantial labour content in the spending of this money, in other words that a substantial amount of wages would accrue and in other words again, so that you could give the maximum amount of employment.

We in Dublin City can only speak with knowledge and experience of the circumstances of the city as it confronts us and as we understand it, and we can deal with it only in this sense, that we have to break down the figures for those who are signing on our exchanges so as to try to understand how they are made up for the type of work for which this money is being made available, as it can only directly affect beneficially able-bodied men. It does not provide, of course, for women, for girls or for boys, but only for such people as are able-bodied and are willing to work. If you break down the approximate figure of whatever it is—18,000 odd-signing at Dublin exchange you will find that provision under the existing figure at that time could only be made as far as employment from that type of assistance was concerned, or could only affect some 3,500 to maybe 4,500 persons, possibly —I admit—heads of families.

But there is no use in thinking, either then or now, that the advent of the National Development Fund would eliminate from Dublin labour exchanges the full 18,000 people who are signing, because obviously you would have to divide that figure. You can divide it, roughly, into four categories, male and female, and in the male and female section there is a division between what might be called juveniles and adults. In the case of our exchanges, so far as I can ascertain them, and I think the Labour Deputies in this House more or less agree with my assessment of the situation, there would be, roughly, if you like, at the moment, 4,000 able-bodied that would have to be dealt with, or could be dealt with in this manner, no matter how much money we had available. What happened on December the 18th? The Taoiseach at that time, Deputy de Valera, realised and appreciated that if a Government wanted to assist in a matter of this kind it must make an approach which was sensible and this National Development Fund was the result of thought in that direction. A go-ahead signal was given to local authorities to see what they could do.

In the City of Dublin, those of us who welcomed the advent of this National Development Fund and who seriously approached it, got down to an examination of it. We felt—a special works committee of the Dublin Corporation—that with a small staff we would be able, on the basis of the 80 per cent. grant from the Government, to design work giving a maximum labour content in the expenditure of this money to employ something like 1,200 to 1,400 men per week. That is to say, giving them 13 weeks' work consecutively and then changing to another batch, we could, within a calendar year, deal with the provision of some three months' work, or, if the numbers were not in excess of what I said before, 3,500, it would be possible for us to conceive giving four or five months' work of this nature to those signing on the Dublin exchange. It would involve removing some of them from the assistance section, dealing with them first, and then with those drawing unemployment money, having exhausted the assistance group.

We approached this matter seriously and set up a special work department. We started turning out as fast as we could plans for immediate employment on what might be called schemes that did not have much capital value but had great amenity value and could be designed and men put to work on them without delay. It addition it was decided to plan ahead so that those schemes which might take six months to plan and design would be ready. Our idea was that we would ultimately have in pigeon holes a sufficient number of schemes to be able to deal with critical situation as they arose; not to wait for some disastrous unemployment situation to develop and there begin to think how we could bring rescue to the unemployed but to be able within a matter of hours to pull out a particular scheme and say: "We can go ahead with this. We can give employment to a great number of men on this particular scheme."

That was the attitude of mind that welcomed and was proud of the introduction of the National Development Fund. Those of us who were concerned about this and who appreciated what it meant, what were we met with? Let me quote now from column 2806, Volume 143, of the Official Debates of the 18th December, 1953. The present Minister for Agriculture, then Deputy Dillon, said:—

"Wait a minute until we expose this ramp for what it is. This is a Bill to put white whiskers and a red gown on Eamon de Valera, the Taoiseach, to provide him with a sleigh and reindeer to function as Father Christmas in Louth and Cork City."

Deputies

Hear, hear!

I can take it, then, that lovely chorus of "hear, hear" is now an endorsement from the Fine Gael Benches of the continuance of this ramp? Fine Gael are now continuing it. In fact they are adding to the £5,000,000 not another £5,000,000 but another £3,000,000. Fine Gael has not cancelled a single scheme as far as I could understand from the Minister when he read out the amount that was already approved of.

Why did Deputy Aiken say we had? One or other of you must be wrong.

I am coming to that gradually. I want to put on record here proof of the nonsense and the hypocrisy of those Fine Gael people either when they were speaking here or when they were sitting over there. Let me quote further from the same column:—

"The purpose of this Bill is plain and simple. People have been saying that the Taoiseach is contemplating retirement and that he is graduating into the ranks of our elder statesmen but he is going to turn out at the next campaign with a large white whisker, a long red gown, seated on a sleigh led by six reindeer, and doubtless the acting Minister for Finance will be sitting beside him not to recall the Taoiseach's advice in Arva, when he announced...."

At column 2808 of the same volume the Minister for Agriculture as Deputy Dillon said:-

"This Bill can be used for slush, and the primary purpose of this Bill is to provide the present Fianna Fáil Government with a slush fund with which to buy votes that they cannot get any other way."

This was the approach of Fine Gael in connection with a serious attempt to make a beginning towards dealing with the alleviation of an unemployment problem. This was their attitude—a slush fund. One would imagine that the moment Fine Geal took over office the first thing they would have done would have been to abandon this fund, to cancel it and not come here to-day with an addition to it, admittedly a meagre amount, not another £5,000,000. Remember £5,700,000 has already been committed and this is to bring the fund up to £8,000,000 so that the most we can hope for is that the present Government will cut down on the building up of schemes for this purpose for fear they will be committed to an amount in excess of an additional, possibly, £2,000,000 or £2,300,000.

I could quote here the Minister for Agriculture ad nauseam. Certainly the fund was not accepted by Fine Gael to be what it was stated to be and it is only now that we have Fine Gael agreeing that this particular method might be and should be continued. I hope that Labour and the Independent Deputies will press the Government to add further to this because we have had experience of its purpose, recognising that it is good and that it should be continued so that a local authority can direct it and be enabled to give it another two years until our unemployment problem is on a better basis. Obviously unemployment cannot be cured within 24 hours as was stated by a Fine Gael leading spokesman. That idea was abandoned because we still have some 70,000 unemployed on our register, and whether our figures in Dublin are up or down will be a matter for answer from time to time. On the facts there must be an admission, and it is about time that the members of the Dáil recognised this, that there are certain things which affect all and which must be dealt with by the Government who say it must be approached in a different way to the approach that was made at the time Fianna Fáil was in Government—from the point of view of criticism and advice and promises given.

We now know it is not so easy to bring down the cost of living and that in order to keep the standard of living of our people at a certain level certain measures must be taken. I am not going to suggest that Fine Geal can or should abolish unemployment within 24 hours. I know they cannot. What I do say is they should welcome any help which would assist them to make substantial progress in that matter. That is one way they can make progress. I find here in the Irish Independent of the 30th April, 1954, that the present Minister for Social Welfare is quoted in an article on living costs and unemployment. It says:-

"Jobs must be provided for those of our people who are ready and willing to work. No one could say there was a scarcity of work when they knew industry was not working to full capacity, when agricultural output had dropped. Why should they have 73,000 people unemployed while thousands of houses are needed in town and country?"

The same question exists to-day. Why should we have 70,000 unemployed? We still have need for thousands of houses which could be built both by the local authorities and under Small Dwelling Acquisition Act loans. How is it that Fine Gael have not been able to get rid of this unemployment for these 73,000? How is it they have not put these men to work building these badly needed houses? The chickens have come to roost now. The responsibility lies over there now, but instead of getting from this side of the House an insane approach to these problems, the Government are getting the benefit of the efforts and the work of the people on this side. I happen to be Chairman of the Special Works Committee of the Dublin Corporation. I am not trying to explode or destroy that committee but to get the present Government to allow us to get employment to the level we anticipated before the change of Government. I want the support of the Labour Party to the suggestion that we would continue——

Is the Deputy suggesting that I have cut down any allocation made by my predecessor on that score?

I have not said that.

You said it before and you had to withdraw it.

I have not been asked to withdraw anything.

Not to-day, but earlier.

Perhaps the Minister would clear up now for Deputy Briscoe's benefit and for everybody else's benefit where the difference comes in. It was stated in June last year that there were six million odd pounds approved by the previous Government. The Minister now says £5,000,000, and the schemes that had been approved by the previous Government have disappeared and have been abandoned by this one. There was a cutting down of the amount.

What I would say is that when the Special Works Committee of Dublin Corporation first tackled this problem they decided to ease unemployment gradually. They began with 80 people the first week and made it 160 the next, and a colleague on the committee, Deputy Alfred Byrne, will correct me if I make a misstatement. We were designing a way of improving the employment prospects of our people so that ultimately we would have from 1,200 to 1,400 more people employed if work were not available for them elsewhere. I am accusing the Government—I do not say the Minister but the Government——

Do not worry. The Minister takes full responsibility.

But this was done by Government decision. I also want to include the Minister's Labour colleagues because I do not want to rest the sole blame on Fine Gael in this. In Dublin we have not been allowed steadily to build up towards the goal at which we had aimed. We have not been allowed to build up towards the position where ultimately we would have 1,200 men employed per week. I have two of my colleagues on that committee here in the House——

Would Deputy Briscoe mind explaining to the House why my predecessor as Minister for Finance in his Government reduced the allocations on the 22nd May last?

We are more concerned with what we call allocations in the sense of their reduction. Will the Minister say that the reduction was specifically related to Dublin?

Not to our knowledge.

It did relate to Dublin. I have a file here on the subject.

The Minister can read it out afterwards. All I know is that when the change of Government came about a deputation went down to the Custom House. Some of us had thought that there might be a serious interference with this work and after the deputation had been received by the Minister for Local Government we were given an assurance that we could carry on at the time with the numbers we had but we were told not to add to them because that was a matter for the Government to decide. We have not been told since that we can add to them and I am making the plea now that we should be allowed to add to them. The Minister must not take to-night the attitude of mind or the argument that his colleagues took during another debate last week. It is no satisfaction to the unemployed man or to the person with a low income or with a low standard of living to hear those Deputies over there and the Minister saying to us: "What did you do?"

This Government has promised that it will do more than was done by Fianna Fáil; this Government has promised to improve things and to do things better. If the present Government feel that all the Fianna Fáil Government was able to do was to employ, say, 400 men per week more, why should they not say: "We will let you employ 800 more to show the world that we are prepared to do twice as much as you did?" It is no argument to say to us: "What did you do?" I want to say, as I was beginning to say before, that there are two members of the Dáil who are colleagues of mine on the Dublin Corporation and on this special works committee, and I venture to say that there will be no suggestion from either of them that that committee works with any political bias whatever. It is a united group of people representing all parties and outlooks in the corporation. Each and every one of them has at heart the welfare of the people and of every individual who needs assistance, and I think that I can say, as the committee's chairman, that I have had the best of support and co-operation for which any man could wish.

I want to say to the Minister that there are various ways in which even the employment of 400 men can be interfered with. When this thing started, we wanted to see red tape abolished, so far as possible. In the beginning, after a lot of arguments and fights, we got to the stage when we were able to obtain rapid decisions to our requests for sanction. Now we are back again in the wilderness of red tape and find that sanctions are again beginning to be delayed. In fact, we find that sanction is being withheld on new grounds.

The primary interest that we have, and that I have as a member of the House in this particular fund, is the amount of help that we can obtain from it to be applied to the relief of our unemployed people. I have already said that I can only speak with knowledge and experience of conditions in the City of Dublin. We in the Corporation of Dublin have agreed to pay our contribution to the cost of works carried out. In fact, we are paying 20 per cent. of the cost of any particular scheme that is sanctioned. We provide, out of our own funds, for the upkeep of engineers and overseers. We are putting on the rates a nominal amount of money not in excess, I think, of 6d. in the £ for this purpose. Anything in excess of the 6d. in the £ is met, as far as our contribution is concerned, by borrowing.

So far as the corporation is concerned, every item of expenditure in relation to schemes sanctioned is, first of all, put before not only every member of the committee but every member of the corporation. All are entitled to make suggestions. These schemes are very closely examined from the point of view of their amenity value or as an addition to, or an improvement of, some existing work. They are all examined from the point of view of the benefit they confer on the community. They are also examined from the point of view of their labour content. After all that has been done, they are put into operation and they afford employment for those who are unemployed and who are taken on from the labour exchanges.

I want to come back again to the Vote. On the last occasion that this matter was under discussion Deputy Dillon, as he was then, said:—

"There are not many more tunes of that kind they can play, so they are going to fare forth with £5,000,000 of public money to announce that, for every vote that is polled, there is money from the public purse to pay for it. Come, how low are politics going to be dragged?"

That quotation is from column 2810 of the Dáil Debates of the 18th December, 1953. Since this Government took office, has there been any justification for allegations of that kind? Is not the Government taking over the expenditure of every penny on every scheme that was approved of by its predecessors? Has it been able to come here and suggest that a single pound note of the £5,750,000 that has been approved of has been spent unwisely or wrongly?

I propose to show later that the present Minister for Finance, when he participated in the debate on the 18th December, 1953, expressed the view that all this was unnecessary, that it was all a joke. Having done that, he comes into the House to-day and endorses everything that was done by his predecessors, except that he is cutting down the amount for future expenditure. If the amount is cut down, what it means is that each local authority will have, in a proportionate degree, to cut down its share in the way of contribution to the alleviation of the unemployment situation. Is not that what the whole thing amounts to? It is just as well for us to know that we have approximately the same number of unemployed signing at our labour exchanges to-day. I venture to say that, as far as Dublin City is concerned, if the figure is not the same it represents a bigger number signing on. Therefore, we need the continuance of this work.

I am not going to weary the House by reading the long speech that was made on that occasion by Deputy Dillon who is now Minister for Agriculture. The speech runs into many columns. In the course of that speech, he ridiculed the proposals that were made for the purpose of creating distrust, and referred to this £5,000,000 as a myth. That is how he described the National Development Fund, and said that when the election was over nothing would be done.

We had another gem of a contribution from a member of the House who is now a member of Government, the Minister for Lands, Deputy Blowick. It is worth while putting on record again what he said. This was part of the intelligent contribution that was made by that Deputy in a serious debate. It was made by one who is now a leader in the management of the country's affairs. This is what Deputy Blowick, as he then was, said at column 2837 of the Dáil Debates:—

"My prophecy is that not one penny of this £5,000,000 will be spent on the establishment of ground limestone plants and on the provision of ground limestone for the farmers."

How much did the Minister say was spent on ground limestone? How many million pennies does Deputy Blowick say will be spent this time? The Minister said that there was a certain amount of money for limestone in this National Development Fund.

Yes. Does the Minister say that he did not say that, or does the Minister not know that under the heading for the Department of Agriculture there is provision for a sum of £926,000? I made a few notes of what the Minister read out. Practically the whole of the debate on the 18th December, 1953, was devoted to this question of ground limestone. Everybody was talking about it. Does the Minister say he did not say that?

The Deputy said a minute ago that I read it out.

Is it included or is it not?

The Deputy was quite positive about it a minute ago.

I say that there is a limestone contribution from the fund. If I am told that is not so, I withdraw it.

Does the Deputy withdraw his suggestion of a minute ago that I had said so?

I withdraw that, and I am now asking the Minister whether there is any expenditure for limestone in it?

None at all?

Then I withdraw my criticism of the prophecy.

It is like everything else where the Deputy is concerned; his facts are a bit awry.

They are not as vague as the Minister's.

Might I ask the Minister whether any of this money is being expended on the reconstruction of Dublin Castle? He did not read out anything about that; it may be a sore point.

Not one penny?

Obviously we cannot conduct this debate by means of question and answer across the floor of the House.

I want to be as accurate as I can.

It is something new with the Deputy to want to be accurate.

These questions and answers will have to cease. Deputy Briscoe on the Vote.

On the last occasion when this matter was before the House, Dublin Castle was one of the issues involved. From what was said then one would have assumed that, following on a change of Government, the alterations and reconstruction which had been planned and approved for Dublin Castle would not have been continued. Now I happen to know that there is work in progress on Dublin Castle at the moment.

The Deputy has asked if there is anything being done in relation to Dublin Castle in connection with this Vote and I have told him "No." Are not his further remarks therefore irrelevant?

I am not irrelevant now.

The Deputy will be relevant in that respect on the Vote on Account next week.

I am asking the Minister now if he will not spend some money to help preserve Dublin Castle, considering that the Board of Works is engaged in shoring it up at the moment to prevent its falling down? Will this Government persist in the attitude adopted by them when they were in opposition? Even though the building may fall down, will they, for spite, refuse to recognise their mistake? Will they do something constructive to preserve the building? Every member of Fine Gael who spoke on this National Development Fund on the last occasion ridiculed the scheme, concluded it was of no consequence, that it meant nothing and was merely something being done for political motives. The strange thing is that the present Government and its supporters have now endorsed everything that their predecessors did. In fact, it has endorsed one or two schemes, approved by the last Government, but left to its successors for decision. In the case of the Gaeltacht, for instance, all the schemes have been approved by this Government.

The Minister for Finance, then Deputy Sweetman, speaking at column 2918 of Volume 143 of the Official Report said: "We were told about roads. You do not need a Bill like this to deal with the road problem." Money is still being expended out of this fund on roads, and we will spend more but if Deputy Sweetman was right on 18th December, 1953, no money should be spent on roads out of this fund. Another Deputy told us that the Bill was required to get grants for bridges. Grants were given for bridges long before anybody ever thought of the National Development Fund. There, again, the fund is not necessary. I do not know whether any grants have yet been given out of this fund for bridges, but we are hoping to bring forward for sanction shortly a scheme for the construction of a new bridge over the Liffey and we shall be expecting a grant for that propose out of this fund. Perhaps it would be better for the Minister to tell us in time whether the moneys will come out of this fund or out of some other fund. Anyway, we will go ahead with this bridge project.

At column 2918, Deputy Sweetman also said that

"there would be grants to local authorities for amenity scheme on the basis of the provision of a certain proportion of money which the local authorities would make up out of the rates and another proportion provided by this fund. Again the provision can be made under ordinary estimates."

The Minister is now continuing that scheme. At column 2919, the present Minister for Finance, then Deputy Sweetman, made a plea:

"I ask the Taoiseach in all sincerity would it not have been more honest merely to increase the item in the Estimate that is already there, rather than go through this camouflage, for camouflage it is?"

Is it still camouflage? Does the Minister now realise that it is something real, or will he continue to hold himself out to the people as a serious Minister for Finance continuing to perpetrate on the people an act of camouflage? Would it not have been better for the Deputies now over there to have approached this matter on the last occasion with some sense of understanding and some sense of appreciation? I admit this is only a small part of a plan to help to alleviate unemployment. Other methods will have to be adopted. Grants will have to be given for other purposes. As far as we are concerned in Dublin, we will be satisfied if we are allowed to continue with the schemes we have inaugurated and initiated under which we ultimately hope to provide employment for at least 1,200 men.

I do not think Deputies, particularly those on the Fine Gael Benches, appreciate one important matter. Last week we discovered that Fine Gael and Labour now know that certain things they accused us of not doing simply cannot be done. They have now discovered that it is impossible to eliminate unemployment or to bring about what they call full employment merely by waving a wand. There is, however, a responsibility on the Government to make provision to bring about as far as possible temporary employment for those of our people who from time to time, because of changing circumstances, become unemployed. I will not get up and say, as Deputies on the opposite benches said : "We will bring down the cost of living. We will abolish unemployment. We will abolish emigration." That may have worked once. People may have believed those promises were sincere. I did not believe it and I am not one of those who will say to the Government now: "If you do not do what you promised, we will get over there and we will do it."

The Deputy's Party was going to bring back the emigrants at one time.

A Deputy

What are the unemployment figures now?

They are the same to-day as they were when that Government took over.

They are down by 7,000, and the Deputy knows that. Perhaps the Deputy would like to give the comparative figures when we left office and before the Deputy's Government had to deal with the problem.

The Minister's Party has come into Government twice under a Coalition-inter-Party arrangement. On both occasions they have come in by making certain promises. On the first occasion the promises were made not so much to the public as to each other, provided they had sufficient members to form a Government. On the first occasion when they had a sufficient number to become a Government they made promises to each other. In 1954 promises were made to the public, and these have not yet been fulfilled. We still have unemployment, emigration, and we have a higher cost of living than since last June. I am not saying to the Minister that he can bring down the cost of living, abolish unemployment entirely, or that he can stop large-scale emigration. I am saying that efforts can be made to deal with these issues, and an effort made to bring about some remedy, in the hope that we will gradually get to the situation when there will be something substantial done. I am glad to see the Minister coming in here and asking us for another £3,000,000, "this bit of camouflage" that his predecessor was smearing all over the country. He is going to take a paint box and brush, and he is smearing it also, but he is not going quite as far. I want him to smear just as much, even if he believes it is camouflage.

There are no by-elections now.

I am only concerned, as I say, with the City of Dublin. We had a by-election before now, and we got the knock. When the two Deputies are as long in the Dáil as some of us over here, they will get used to taking the knock, but they have no experience of it yet. The next time may be their last. Political Parties come and go, individuals come and go.

The Chair would like very much if the Deputy would talk on the Estimate.

I am talking on the Estimate.

The Deputy has repeated himself several times, and I have borne with him. Will the Deputy now please talk on the Estimate?

Time marches on.

Is the Deputy talking about a news reel or proceedings in the Dáil?

The Deputy will proceed. The Chair will deal with interruptions.

I am making a plea to the Minister that whatever additional sum of money is included in this Vote to-day, we in the City of Dublin will not be hampered by being asked to spend less, but that in fact we will be able to spend more. What I mean is that we will be able to engage more men by getting more schemes sanctioned. We in the City of Dublin are roughly one-sixth of the total population, and I think we are entitled to claim one-sixth of the total amount of money made available. I hear Deputies from the country talking about money being spent on drainage and fertilisers, money for developing the fishing industry, for pig development, artificial insemination, and T.B. elimination in cattle.

Do I understand the Deputy to object to the eradication of bovine T.B.?

No. If the Minister had not been talking to his colleagues he would have heard what I said. I said that the City of Dublin, having a population equal to one-sixth——

The Deputy should not repeat himself, even to oblige the Minister.

I am asking for one-sixth of the total amount spent. If there is £8,000,000 to be spent, I am claiming on behalf of the City of Dublin, and I hope my colleagues will support me, that we get at least one-sixth of that amount, and of any money added to that, we will get our continuing one-sixth.

I am glad that this particular method of coping with extraordinary situations has now been accepted by the House. As my colleague, Deputy Beegan, has stated, we are not voting against this, we are not opposing it. We are only concerned with its continuance. The present Government have been in office for some eight or nine months, and if they have had time to examine it, I hope they will appreciate it; it is something worth while. I recommend to every member of the Fine Gael group to read the debate which took place on December 18th, 1953. I recommend them to read it and then come back to the House and explain how they can support such a measure in view of the policy then announced.

May I ask the Minister can he assure the House that, as far as the City of Dublin is concerned, there is going to be no slowing up in the examination or the sanctioning of schemes? Can the Minister assure the House that we have now reached a stage where those who are concerned with this particular work in Dublin can look forward to the possibility of bringing up schemes, if and when we feel it is necessary?

There had been a practice in the past, roughly once a year shortly before Christmas, of voting a sum of money in the Dáil to be spent by the Dublin Corporation for the relief of unemployment. That has been done away with now. We are getting substantial grants on road work. We feel that it is better that the money should be given to the local authority in this fashion, and that it is a far better way of dealing with unemployed people, because you are dealing with them the whole year round.

I hope the Minister will answer the questions with which I am concerned. I hope that the Minister will help us to meet any awkward situations, and that my colleagues will support me on that.

I find myself initially in the position of joining with Deputy Briscoe in making an appeal to the Minister to assure us in the City of Dublin that we will be enabled not only to keep the employment on special work schemes up to the present level, but that we will be enabled to sanction the necessary finance to increase the number employed on those schemes. I think it is necessary in making this appeal to the Minister to point out the fact which came to light as a result of a reply to a question I put to the Minister for Local Government recently; that is, that although the number of houses under construction by the Dublin Corporation at the end of 1954 shows an increase, the actual number of building workers, craftsmen and unskilled workers, shows a considerable reduction on previous years. These men, skilled and used to hard physical work, would be ideally suited for work at present being carried on in Dublin under National Development Fund schemes. I would appeal to the Minister to assist us in Dublin by taking up, at least to some extent, the unemployment that has occurred in the building trade in recent years.

While I make that appeal to the Minister, it is only fair to him, to the House and to myself that I should indicate quite clearly my conviction that had the change of Government not taken place last year we would be hearing very little to-day of national development work. I was not a Deputy in December, 1953, when the original National Development Fund was introduced by Fianna Fáil but I was a citizen of Dublin in 1952 when Fianna Fáil introduced their notorious Budget and I could observe in the summer of 1953 the result of that Budget in the growing unemployment in Dublin and throughout the country. While the National Development Fund Bill was introduced in December, 1953, during the summer of 1953 there was what might be described as panic in the ranks of Fianna Fáil in view of the situation resulting from their previous efforts.

Deputy Aiken in to-day's debate made play of the unemployment figures. He used a very old trick, a trick which by now should be played out. He compared the figure for unemployment in a summer month with a figure for unemployment in a winter month. Nobody knew better than Deputy Aiken that the unemployment figures in 1953 caused most serious alarm to Fianna Fáil when, instead of there being a seasonal drop in unemployment in April, May and June in that year, the situation continued during the summer just as it had been during the late winter and early spring.

I understand from the speakers in this debate to-day that the National Development Fund Bill was introduced to deal with the situation when unemployment would become of very serious proportions. I was personally most disappointed that no Deputy from the Fianna Fáil Benches indicated what in his opinion would be unemployment of serious proportions. It appeared to me that every Fianna Fáil Deputy who contributed to the debate was accepting that for now and for all time there would be fairly serious unemployment in this country. No Deputy can view unemployment amounting to 60,000 or 70,000 as a matter to be brushed aside and forgotten.

It is very serious.

Very serious. I would submit that Fianna Fáil should be very careful in what they say on the question of unemployment because that Party had the Government of this country for quite a long number of years and their last effort in that connection will not soon be forgotten.

I consider that the National Development Fund is a useful fund once it is used to provide employment and because it can and will be used for that purpose I welcome the continuance of it and I hope to see it amplified under present circumstances.

The National Development Fund is not the only way by which employment can be provided. While, in 1953, Fianna Fáil were producing a scheme to meet a situation created to a great extent by themselves, they were forgetting that a Fianna Fáil Minister for Local Government had been responsible to a great extent for the hold-up of the construction of houses in Dublin.

I, like Deputy Briscoe, in another place will do what I can to further schemes of use and value for our people, particularly in the city, portion of which I represent in Dáil Éireann. I do not think that my memory is so bad that I should have forgotten the early experiences of the committee referred to by Deputy Briscoe, the special works committee. He, as chairman of that committee—and, may I say, a most excellent and most active chairman?—spent the first three or four months going back and forward to either the then Minister for Local Government or the then Taoiseach, trying to get some action, and Deputy Briscoe will agree, I think, that had his other colleagues in the corporation who are, like myself, of a somewhat different political persuasion, wished to play politics with the delays and the frustrations which he met with on these occasions, we could have done so very easily.

Delays by whom?

The Taoiseach and the Minister for Local Government in the Fianna Fáil Government.

No, the red tape—let us be honest about it. The Taoiseach broke all that down.

It has been my experience in this House that, if something is done, the Minister responsible will accept responsibility and that, if something is not done, the Minister is held responsible. Around the end of 1953 and the beginning of 1954, frankly I, as a member of the special works committee, did not know what was going to happen, because we were unable, as Deputy Briscoe will admit, to get any confirmation in writing for quite a period as to whether we had permission to go ahead.

We were working before the Vote was carried through the Dáil.

We were completely without confirmation in writing from any Minister or the then Taoiseach.

But we worked just the same.

You were working—that is the point.

That is what I say.

I am very pleased to hear Deputy Briscoe reminding us that we were working before it went through the Dáil, but we were not working before the unemployed paraded the streets of Dublin in 1953.

That is another point.

I noticed at that particular period—I was not a member of this House—that there was very little urgency about doing anything about the unemployment position until the unemployed demonstrated in public, but then the powers that be at that time——

They might do it again, you know.

Any time now.

Only we are not leading them.

That would be beneath you?

No. Only one of those fellows who marched was employed in the corporation.

Before this debate concludes, there are two things I should like. One is an assurance from the Minister that we will not be faced in Dublin with the situation that faced us in 1953 with regard to the carrying out of work under the National Development Fund. Secondly, I should like to hear from some spokesman of Fianna Fáil an indication of the point at which, in their considered opinion, the operation of putting the plans into the pigeon hole or taking the plans out of the pigeon hole would start.

So long as there are men available, and I said it.

I should like to hear from Fianna Fáil at what level——

Below the present level.

——Fianna Fáil would consider it imperative to operate plans such as those envisaged in the National Development Fund Act. I should like to get that information, because I am personally convinced that, had there not been a change of Government in the middle of last year, there would not have been from Fianna Fáil this continued pressure for expenditure under this particular heading. I welcome the introduction of the Bill and the indication that further moneys will be available, and I trust that we will not be handicapped, either through lack of finance or through Departmental delays or red tape, from playing our part in Dublin in providing as much work as possible for as many of our unemployed as we can with the amounts provided.

I should like to avail of this discussion to remind the House that, even if unemployment is running considerably lower than last year or the year before, it is running still at a rate which is dangerous to the economy of the country. We are inclined to discuss unemployment and emigration here on the basis that, if we have not got more than 70,000 people unemployed, we are doing well, but we should realise, first of all, that we never have a true picture of the unemployment situation by reason of the fact that the true unemployment situation is masked by the high degree of emigration, so that the official figures which we get are never a true picture of the full unemployment situation in the country. Unfortunately, I am afraid we have come to accept as more or less inevitable a rate of unemployment which is one of the highest in Western Europe—one of the highest in terms of our working population.

Surely it should be possible for Parties on both sides of this House to realise that the chronic unemployment and emigration rate from which we suffer requires something far more drastic than the provision of funds to relieve unemployment, something much more drastic than the National Development Fund. The National Development Fund is merely a necessary evil which is necessary by reason of the fact that we have failed to provide work for the people of the country. I think that probably much better results could be obtained if the money were used to reduce the rates of interest on loans, available to local bodies and for the creation of industries. I want to make it quite clear that I support this Supplementary Estimate, but only on the basis that it is a necessary evil, by reason of our failure to tackle the unemployment and emigration questions in a more fundamental way.

It is extraordinary that more than 30 years after we have obtained control of our affairs here we have completely failed to approach the problem of emigration and unemployment in any basic way. In my view, and I think it is a view which is shared by many economists here, the basic cause of unemployment and emigration is the lack of investment in our own productive resources. Allied with that is the question of the high interest rates which are charged on all development projects, whether these development projects be undertaken by local authorities or by private enterprise. I think, incidentally, that the Government and the Minister for Finance deserve to be congratulated for having so far withstood the pressure which was being put on them by the banks to allow increases in the bank interest rates. I hope the Government will stand firm and will not allow recent developments in Britain to persuade them into allowing an increase in the interest rates.

I am afraid the Deputy is enlarging the scope of this debate because unemployment and emigration are only discussable on this Estimate in relation to the National Development Fund.

Yes; I appreciate that I am possibly straying and I do not intend to pursue this line further. The Ceann Comhairle and the House will remember, however, that this National Development Fund was created, or at least was instituted, in 1953, and that its creation and institution had been rendered necessary by reason of the huge increase in unemployment which occurred in 1953, due to the deflationary policy pursued by the then Government. It is interesting to recall that, in February, 1953, when this measure was passed by the House, the unemployment figure was 87,000, whereas to-day it is 72,000. That very high unemployment figure in 1953 was due entirely to the deflationary policy which was pursued by the then Government—restriction on credits and high interest rates. I think that probably much more lasting results and much more satisfactory results could be obtained by utilising a substantial portion of the Development Fund in making loans available to public bodies throughout the country and to industries at low rates of interest. It has been worked out and, I think, accurately, that on an average corporation house, a reduction of 2 per cent. in the rate of interest payable would bring about a reduction of 12/- a week in the rent of that house.

I do not want to interrupt the Deputy again, but the National Development Fund Act created this fund. The fund has to be administered and we are discussing the administration of the fund, that is, how it should be administered. The Act says that the Minister may apply the fund for the purpose of financing projects which, in his opinion, are projects of development of a public character and are in the national interest.

I respectfully submit that the utilisation of the National Development Fund, or portion of it, to reduce interest rates would come within the terms of the Act, and I am urging that on the Government as a constructive method of promoting employment and promoting national development by the local authorities. There is nothing, I think, in the Act which would prevent the utilisation of the fund in order to make loans available to local authorities at low rates of interest and thus promote employment. My submission is that the utilisation of the fund in this way would bring about much more fundamental results in the field of employment.

We had experience from 1948 to 1951 of what can be done by an expansion of credit and by reasonable rates of interest. By the summer of 1951, we had reached a position where there were fewer people unemployed than in any other year in the history of the country. We had reached a position where the total unemployment figures were 32,000. True, it was a summer period, but it was still the lowest recorded figure of unemployment and that situation was brought about by an expansion of the credit policy of the State. The high unemployment figures which were reached in 1953 were due to the pursuit of the opposite policy, of a deflationary policy, a policy which was restrictive of credit. That instances the effect of the credit policy of the State on unemployment.

On a point of order. I may take it that we can now discuss——

I was about to intervene.

——the interest policy and the cycle of unemployment since 1948?

I am not going to allow the Deputy to proceed along the line he is endeavouring to proceed on at the moment. He is endeavouring to discuss public credit.

Apologising, I suppose. It is a hard task and the Deputy has my sympathy.

I am endeavouring to point out that probably much better results and certainly much more farreaching results could be obtained by utilising a portion of this fund to make loans available at cheaper rates of interest. It would mean that much more capital would be available for development purposes.

I do not see how that can be relevant to administration of the Act.

Surely money which is provided for under the Act can be used, at the discretion of the Government, for different purposes.

If the Deputy says it should be devoted to the erection of houses or for construction works——

I am putting it on the basis that it should be used for the purpose of making loans for the erection of houses and for public works available at cheaper rates of interest. This is a provision of £3,000,000 for the purpose of providing money for construction works——

And works of national importance.

It is within the discretion of the Government to give that £3,000,000 as a gift to the public fund or to utilise a portion of it to reduce the rate of interest at which loans can be made available to public bodies. In other words, it is one method of expending the money——

Yes, but it is not a method within the terms of the Act. "The Minister may apply the fund for the purpose of financing projects which, in his opinion, are projects of development of a public character and are in the national interest."

You can say to a local authority: "You can borrow £1,000,000. I will contribute £100,000 to you to ensure that the rate of interest on your loan will be lower."

The Deputy may not proceed on that line. He is adumbrating a new credit policy.

It is not a capital charge.

The Deputy will have an opportunity later.

I accept your ruling unreservedly, a Cheann Comhairle, but I do not say that your ruling needed the support or jocose remarks of——

I was only trying to say——

I was not thinking of Deputy Childers.

But of me.

Deputy MacBride should be allowed to make his speech without interruption.

Reference was made by Deputy Briscoe and other Deputies to the present unemployment position. In my view, it is as well that we should get the unemployment figures into some perspective. In February, 1951, the total number of unemployed was 65,000. In February, 1952, after the change of Government, the number had risen to 74,000. In February, 1953, the number of unemployed was 87,000. In February, 1954, the figure was 79,000 and in February, 1955, the figure was 72,000. In themselves, these figures are a good illustration of the way in which unemployment can be dealt with. The National Development Fund, used purely as a means of relieving unemployment, is a necessary relief. It would be desirable to have a National Development Fund which could be used for true national development purposes and not merely as a relief fund. Unfortunately, we have not reached that stage and I do not believe that stage can be reached unless and until we are prepared to adopt a different credit policy.

We in Fianna Fáil have become accustomed to the Fine Gael Party's taking over of Fianna Fáil schemes in large numbers and— although they have shown, at times, an unwillingness to do so, and although, at times, they have cancelled Fianna Fáil schemes or run them more slowly or ineffectively—I must say I always feel a sense of triumph when another Fianna Fáil scheme that had previously been condemned is taken over and adopted, even in a modified form.

In connection with this whole discussion on unemployment, I think the National Development Fund should be looked at in the light of a completely normal modern application of economics to unemployment—nothing more and nothing less. It does not serve to solve the unemployment problem. It is simply a device to do something when unemployment shows a cyclic increase and to do something to reduce some of the excessive level of unemployment which can be seen in this country at all times, particularly in the winter months.

We have heard a great deal already from speakers about changes in the rate of unemployment in the last few years. I do not suppose there is any need to repeat the facts because most people in the House know them by now. They know that in this country and in every country in Western Europe there was a period of boom employment in 1951 occasioned by the stockpiling in connection with the Korean war. They know that Governments that took advantage of that boom period to boast of the excessive employment at that time were boasting dishonestly—particularly in so far as the employment was followed by stockpiling, and by people carrying out economic activity for fear of another war and because the price of raw materials was rising so rapidly that everybody was trying to get jobs of work done as quickly as possible.

I think the Deputy said, when he was a Minister, that there was no stockpiling.

I never said anything of the kind. I have given discourses in this House, time without number——

Yes, and rather long, sometimes.

—— on what is known familiarly throughout Europe as the Korean Boom and on the deflation that followed it. If the Minister wants me to develop that matter further, I will.

How can the Deputy reconcile his statement to-night with his White Paper of 1951?

The White Paper reflected part of that economic situation. Thereafter, both in this country and in other countries of the sterling area, a period of unemployment was reflected in the unemployment figures and there was a further increase in unemployment here due to the change in the incidence of payments under the Social Welfare Act. The Minister for Finance can get statements issued by the Minister for Social Welfare and by the Department of Social Welfare reflecting the changes that took place when the Social Welfare Act was passed and a large number of persons came into benefit for the first time—some of them under, perhaps, shall we say, rather doubtful circumstances.

In connection with the National Development Fund, I want to press the Minister to include, as far as possible, the Road Fund grants—and for a perfectly sound and excellent reason. From 1939 until about 1947 it was impossible to find adequate materials or machinery to repair or improve the roads. There was, therefore, a gap in road activity of an exaggerated kind during the whole of that period. The Road Fund is genuinely and honestly owed a very considerable sum representing the deficiency of payments into it during the war period. In my opinion, the deficiency has never yet been made up. The vehicle density in the country showed only a very small rise during the period of the war and then remained stationary but, in fact, as everybody knows, owing to weather conditions the general deterioration of the roads, even without traffic, has inevitably continued. There is every sign, in looking at the roads in general —and particularly at the country roads and the minor main roads—that the Road Fund is utterly inadequate to cope with the present density of traffic and the ever-growing density of traffic. I cannot see that there is anything wrong or dishonest, economically or otherwise, in applying some of these funds to the improvement of the roads, and the improvement of roads where there has been a delay in action taken, due in particular to the work that had to be done after the war to repair the roads as a result of the effects of the war.

The Minister for Finance can get all the figures he wants from the Department of Local Government. He can find a complete record of the deficiency in road work during the war and the effect of a very small number of vehicles coming on the roads when the immediate emergency ended, when petrol became available, and the fact that there was only a very small number of vehicles, which provided an utterly inadequate revenue. The Minister knows that in 1946 and 1947 additional grants for roads were made by the then Minister for Local Government. As far as I can see, there would have to be for some considerable time some supplementary grant for the minor roads, quite apart from the main roads, to bear the traffic going upon them.

There is also the question of cyclic unemployment that may occur in any period in connection with local authority building in Dublin City. It may occur through there being a failure to provide sufficient sites, for technical or other reasons; it may be due to a number of causes: but one of the purposes underlying the National Development Fund was to prepare a series of schemes which could come into operation whenever cyclic unemployment occurs in the building world and whenever it is urgently necessary to provide employment and by so doing to create construction works of value to the country or to improve the situation in general. That again is a perfectly normal feature of modern economic life and I think that it should continue. It can be noticed that the number of houses built and completed by the Dublin Corporation, the number of sites acquired, the number of schemes prepared for tender, can vary from year to year, with inevitable repercussions upon employment. Therefore, I think that the National Development Fund is extremely valuable from that standpoint.

Figures for unemployment have very little importance unless the rate of emigration is discussed at the same time, unless we know the causes of the particular types of emigration and who the emigrants are, where they come from, what work they might have got and the circumstances under which they emigrate. It is certainly true of my constituency that, whatever the figure for unemployment may be there, it bears no relation to the problem as a whole, because there is no doubt a very high rate of emigration at the present time, due to a number of causes—the lack of productivity in the land and the high rate of wages offered in Great Britain at the same time. To discuss unemployment and its relation to economic life is foolish unless emigration is discussed at the same time. The whole picture of unemployment, as reflected in the figures, deserves complete re-examination by whatever Government is in office.

I heard Deputy MacBride say that the rate of unemployment here was the highest in Europe. I should like to hear the Minister for Finance comment on that. As far as I know, there are certain types of unemployed persons here included in the register that are not found in other countries of Europe. To that extent, the figures are misleading—misleading both in the time of the present inter-Party Government and the time of the former Government. I think we should say the truth about these things and at least have the honesty to point out anomalies in the method of computing unemployment, at least when we start to compare unemployment with that taking place in any other country. The Minister for Finance knows very well to what I am referring. There is not an exact comparison. You have the position that the most serious unemployment problem in rural districts is in the winter and yet it is possible to see a number of persons receiving unemployment benefit in the summer months, when one knows from the character of the district that practically any man who is able and willing can get a job during the summer period. Again, it would appear that the analysis of the unemployed leaves something to be desired. The true statement of their position, of their type, leaves something to be desired— because you will find in an area the farmers laughing at the idea that there can be any unemployed registered there, when they are unable to find men.

The picture becomes entirely different in the winter months and the abiding problem of this country—for which this fund was partly founded, but which it could not in any sense solve—is the fact that we are one of the few countries of Western Europe where there are only partially employed agricultural labourers. As far as I can remember, about half of the persons classified as agricultural labourers are regarded as permanently employed and the other half as only partially employed. Again, to be realistic, no matter what Government has been in office in the last ten years—inter-Party or Fianna Fáil—the figures show that the partially employed agricultural labourers are leaving the land at the rate of 12,000 to 14,000 a year. They left it at almost exactly the same rate during part of the inter-Party Government's regime, during part of our régime and now again in the present Government's régime. It is useless and idle to talk about any contribution that any National Development Fund can make, without mentioning that fact and without mentioning that no Government has solved the problem of persuading the agricultural labourers employed in the summer months and for six to eight weeks of the winter months to stay, because under all Governments they are leaving the land very rapidly. This is a matter which, in my opinion, can only be solved ultimately by far greater agricultural productivity.

That leads to another consideration in connection with the National Development Fund. We allocated quite an amount of money for agricultural schemes. I want to say very definitely, from my own standpoint in any event, that if the Minister for Finance, after making an allocation for the roads which seems to be absolutely essential, has a balance of the fund and if by spending the whole of the balance on agricultural development he can be convinced that the results would be sufficiently speedy to increase productivity and increase the purchasing power of the agricultural community thereby, it would be by far the best method of spending that portion of the fund not allocated specifically to roads, where there is obviously a great deficiency in the amount available from the Road Fund to do the very urgent jobs of making thousands of miles of roads able to bear heavy motor traffic for which they were never constructed. I am quite well aware of the fact that spending money on agricultural schemes may not result in an immediate increase in productivity. It may not result in making an increase in the purchasing power of the farmers, with a consequent growth in employment; but if it did, I myself would be delighted to see it spent in that way because it would seem to me to be the best solution for the problem.

I believe in facing the issue of rural unemployment quite frankly. I believe that productivity in the farming world has to increase to the point where there will be largely only a permanently employed force of agricultural labourers. I can see no other solution for it. I think one can make comparisons with other Western European countries with a very high rate of productivity in agriculture and where one has noticed that the partially employed agricultural labourers have migrated from the land into towns and have been provided with employment by the more prosperous farmers and that that corps of agricultural labourers, by and large, with the exception of special migratory labour for the harvest period, is a permanently employed corps. Farmers cannot be expected to do that here in our circumstances, until production has greatly increased. I would like to see that situation reached. In the meantime, to be perfectly honest, no Government has solved this problem and the agricultural labourers who are partially employed are leaving at a high rate, whereas those who study the figures for migration will find that amongst the permanently employed agricultural labourers, while there is certain migration, it is small—1,000 to 2,000 of the whole corps of permanently employed, as distinct from 12,000 to 14,000 of the partially employed.

I regard the National Development Fund as a useful device to deal, first of all, with roads; secondly, and I hope to a considerable extent, with agricultural development; and, thirdly, in trying to deal as far as possible with excessive unemployment where it occurs, through a series of useful schemes in which the labour content will be high. I am glad the Minister for Finance has been converted to the adoption of this fund, which I think has a certain and only limited value in its general utility and its general effect on the nation's economy. The thing that obviously is good about it is its flexibility, that schemes can be prepared and put into operation at what should be reasonably short notice, once there are enough schemes available and once there are enough plans proposed concerning which the actual operation can take place in fairly quick time.

I do not think anybody ought to boast inordinately about its value. At the same time, I think that its existence is useful under the circumstances in which we are likely to find ourselves in the next few years.

It is very easy for anybody to stand up in this House and pay lip service to the unemployed. I am afraid that many of the speakers this evening contented themselves with giving lip service to the unemployed. I agree with Deputy Childers that the National Development Fund is a very useful device. I think the operative word is "device" because it is certainly not a permanent remedy for unemployment. Possibly when the Fianna Fáil Government first introduced the National Development Fund they decided it was one way of keeping down the level of unemployment. Have we reached the stage in this country where if we can say that the number of registered unemployed is under 60,000 that everything is all right and that we need not worry any more?

I wonder how many Deputies in this House had the galling experience of standing outside a labour exchange waiting his turn to sign for a few paltry shillings? I can say I had that experience and because of that I have more sympathy for the unemployed man than anyone here has I am sure. Unfortunately, sympathy is of very little use. Listening to the debate, the unemployed man could agree that he got plenty of sympathy but unless something very constructive is done in the near future and unless something far greater than the National Development Fund, as at present laid out, is offered, the future for the ordinary working class people in this country is not very bright.

It is quite easy to say that the money available is not as big as it might be. When it comes to trying to deal with between 70,000 and 80,000 unemployed people and when it comes to examining ways and means to deal with emigration, money must be found somewhere. We have just passed through a period of very bad weather. Most of the country was snow-bound. I wonder how many people who found it difficult to travel round on their business during the snow realise that for the working class people, particularly county council employees, every one of them casual workers, that meant no wages for the week. Because of the fact that they could not sign at the labour exchange they had to get what Deputy Carter referred to as credit. They must get their food and everything else they require on tick. As long as I remember and as long as any Deputy remembers what happened a week ago happened every year from January until the end of March because for one reason or another the county councils decide to close down on employment saying they have got no money. Surely something should be done to remedy that situation?

If the National Development Fund was devoted during those periods to repairing the lanes and roads of Ireland on which the farmer and the labourer must travel all the year round and on which at the present time they have to wade in water up to the knees the money would be very well spent.

We have also the question to which Deputy Childers referred—the partly unemployed farm worker. There is one thing about this question of increasing production which does not satisfy me. I agree there must be increased production and there has been over the years but all it has meant to the farm worker is that the higher the production the smaller the number of men required. One way the Irish farmer sees to increase production is to bring machinery in. When machinery is brought in on the farm, the men must emigrate. There is nothing else for them. I believe that our present system of trying to apply the Canadian or Australian type of agricultural economy to the lands of Ireland has been a failure.

I think the Government would be well advised if, in the National Development Fund, they would make provision for the encouragement of a different type of agriculture. The market-garden type of agriculture has proved a big remedy for the unemployment situation in other European countries. Another thing which could be encouraged through the National Development Fund is the growing of tobacco in this country. It would be very enlightening to get the opinion of the Fianna Fáil experts as to why, when they themselves encouraged tobacco to be grown and established the industry many years ago, they decided it was not right to allow it to continue and eventually they sabotaged the whole thing.

Why not try to grow tea for a change?

It might grow better in the Deputy's constituency. We will leave him to try the experiment himself. I think our seaside resorts have been neglected so far as the expenditure of money is concerned. I can see no good reason why something could not be done to beautify the seaside resorts. It was all right for Deputy Briscoe to say that nearly one-sixth of the total should be given to the City of Dublin. I had a hazy recollection of hearing quite recently that Dublin City decided they were not able to spend all the grant they got last year. I hope that is wrong, having regard to the unemployment figure in Dublin. I think a lot of money could be very profitably spent on improving the amenities in our seaside resorts.

There are also places like the Boyne Valley. At one time it was possible for anybody to travel from Navan to Drogheda along the Boyne Valley, but because of neglect we have now that road completely overgrown with weeds, trees and shrubbery of all kinds. I see no good reason why, in the spending of the National Development Fund, there would not be provision made to try to improve the amenities of that area and other beauty spots like it.

There is also a matter at which people are inclined to sneer. I refer to the mineral resources of this country. We know that at the present time every country in the world is trying to find certain types of minerals. We know that in Monaghan, Louth and Meath there are supplies of minerals which could be very useful if they were properly mined. I know a case where there was one particular mine in Monaghan which was used up to 1798. If the people at that time could make a success of it with absolutely no machinery for mining lead or zinc, is it not surprising at the present time that with modern machinery available nobody is attempting to use that mine? In Meath, there is outside Drogheda, an open-cast coal mine which was used up to 40 or 50 years ago. The coal, I understand— though it may not be saying much for it—was infinitely superior to that which is being drawn out of the Park and sold at the present time. There are a couple of mines at Beauparc and I believe a number of experiments were made there a few years ago.

You never told us about the uranium.

Deputy Giles has referred to uranium and it is a surprising thing that there are many places in this country where traces of uranium have been found. Fortunately the uranium I refer to was not anywhere near Maynooth or Kilcock or perhaps the Deputy would be going off with his spade himself. Definitely all types of minerals are to be found in this country and I would blame the Geological Survey for not going after these things. Apparently they have decided that they have something good in Wicklow and they are staying there. I believe under the National Development Fund there should be some provision for spending a considerable proportion of this money experimenting with mines. I believe if we are ever going to make an improvement in this country we have to do it first through changing our entire agricultural system and, secondly, through developing our mineral resources.

I know there are many speakers anxious to get in on this debate, but I would like to conclude by asking the Minister to take into account that from January until the end of March each year a considerable number of men who must depend on their weekly earnings for what they are able to buy are really unemployed because of the fact that there is no money available under the county councils, and provision could be made out of the National Development Fund to fill in the gap which apparently the county councils are prepared to leave there every year.

I must say this debate improved a little as it went on. One would think here at the start that the Republic of Ireland started at Inchicore and finished up at Ringsend and that there was no place left in the Republic except Dublin. It would be rather interesting—and I suggest we find some means of getting it—to know the manner in which the money has been spent and the particular purposes to which the money has gone from the Departments that received it. I notice here £900,000 went to the Department of Industry and Commerce. I agree partly with Deputy MacBride that I would prefer to have one man put into permanent employment rather than ten makeshift jobs lasting for three months and then finishing up. I think if we took that line we would get ahead further and have less of the statistical lies that we have pushed around here from time to time. I remember in my early days—and I never found anything to contradict it—it was said that there were three kinds of lies—lies, damn lies, and statistics.

I do not see how this arises on this Estimate.

I do not know whether the Minister for Finance could give that information to us to-night in his concluding speech but I would certainly like to have some indication of where the £900,000 that was allocated to the Department of Industry and Commerce went.

I gave it to the House at the beginning of this debate, in detail.

You said that the money was allocated to the Department of Industry and Commerce.

And the details.

Well, I am very sorry I missed it.

May I ease the Deputy's mind by telling him that one of the details was £400,000 to Cork for harbour development?

I expected that you would go cleaning up the tailend of a drain with it. I wonder how much— and it should not be a very difficult question since the Minister has the details—how much of it was put into Irish Steel Holdings?

Cork Harbour, I was talking about.

I am talking about Irish Steel Holdings which is also under the Department of Industry and Commerce. I am asking the Minister——

Surely the Deputy is not suggesting that Irish Steel Holdings should be dealt with under the National Development Fund?

I certainly am suggesting that, if the purpose of the National Development Fund is to endeavour to get rid of unemployment. I certainly think that this is one of the ways in which it should be used, and I certainly consider that where the Fianna Fáil Government succeeded in turning something that was a stockyard in which you had auctions every six months of portions of machinery, and where you had employment down to 20 men and where you have at present 680 people in permanent employment, and where there is room for further development in a sheet mill and in a tin plate mill that would increase the employment up to 1,400 permanent men, I think that is a place where you could put your National Development Fund into operation with some good effect, and that if you throw £500,000 into that in order to get that development, it would be money far better spent than if it went in giving relief to a certain number of men for six months and then leaving the country as bad as ever afterwards.

That is my idea of the way in which this money should be spent. We might all have different ideas. One of the proposals sent up—since the Minister has the details here—was a scheme for the prevention of erosion from Youghal right around to Ballycotton where some 5,000 acres of land are threatened with being cleared out and where the unfortunate owners of that land or the tenants are paying to the tune of 63/- per acre per year—it is nearly as bad as Deputy Mrs. O'Carroll's £2—for a portion of land that they can see only when the tide goes out. I interested our county surveyor in Cork in that matter and he went into it and he prepared proposals which were sent up under the National Development Fund for the expenditure of £25,000 on that part of the coast which was suffering from erosion. The scheme would put those farmers into some sort of a fair position in which they could carry on. In the last 15 years something like 500 acres of land have already gone, eaten away year after year, and the famous Land Commission that we had here, or land judges, were so clever that they did not keep a shilling back from what they gave the landlords to protect that land——

Surely that does not arise under this Estimate.

I am giving reasons, and I am saying that there is a line of decent, thrifty farmers along that coast, farmers who have something between 70 or 80 per cent. of their land constantly under tillage producing crops. Those men see their acreage eaten away year after year but they still have to pay land annuities on the full acreage to the Land Commission and in the very near future we will find that they will have to have their land re-surveyed and marked out. The computation of the country surveyor was that in 20 years more the greater portion of that land would be gone.

Is there any better way in which £25,000 of that National Development Fund could be spent than in retrieving that land and holding it for the ordinary working farmers down there? We hear a lot about the flight from the land but there is an instance of it. There was a group of farmers with me last night and their position is deplorable. We went under the Public Authorities (Works) Act and spent some £2,000 on the drainage of a river there, and then we found that the drainage we had done was useless and the whole of that land is now completely water-logged. It is all very well for the gentlemen to go down there from the city in the summer and sit on the sand, but it is different entirely for the unfortunate men who have to earn a livelihood and to pay for land they cannot see except when the tide goes out. Those are the things we would like to see that money spent on. Not alone would that provide a large amount of employment, but it would be of lasting benefit to the district.

I regret I was not present to hear the itemised list as to the manner in which that money was spent. I think £40,000 brought into the Cork Harbour Board was a waste of money.

£400,000.

It was a waste of public money—tearing out the bottom of an old stream, that is where most of it is going, whereas you have a natural harbour in Cobh where the whole of that work could be done.

That is where it is being done.

Those are the items on which this money should be spent to give a lasting return. Year after year we will have the same tale of woe, so many thousand men unemployed, rapped across from one Party to the other so long as you only have makeshift remedies for that. One thing I am proud of as a member of Fianna Fáil is that in my constituency there are at present some 1,500 people in permanent employment who were not there when we took office and many of whom, but for our getting the inter-Party Government out of office in 1951, would be on the road in very quick time. I am alluding to the condition of affairs that existed in the towns of Midleton and Youghal three months after the inter-Party Government went out of office.

When we hear this problem of unemployment raised, we look at the reasons why. Having heard Deputy Childers speaking on part-time agricultural labourers, I would like to say this much, that the agricultural labourer on the land at the present day is an idiot or any man who works for the wages of £4 a week——

The Deputy seems to be getting away from the Estimate.

I am dealing with statements that were made. Take the case of men in my constituency who were agricultural labourers or whose parents were agricultural labourers. If you go into one of those labourer's cottages to-day, where are the men who were living on the land? They are earning from £7 10s. to £15 a week in Irish Steel where they get employment, where they can walk out on Saturday at 1 o'clock and they need not be watching to see who is going to milk the cows or feed them.

How is this related to the National Development Fund?

I am speaking of people who are only partly employed on the land—and we have heard enough about them from Deputies here—and I am saying that they are all clearing off the land. I do not know how many more will clear off during the next 12 months when the income of the farmers in this country has been cut down by £2,500,000 on wheat alone.

The Deputy seems to be discussing agriculture instead of the Estimate.

I admit there is one thing you dare not mention in this House and that is agriculture.

National development depends on agriculture.

A sum of £926,000 was allocated to agriculture, we heard from the Minister for Finance. It did not go into lime. I do not know the details of what it went into. I will have a good read to-night and find out.

The Deputy will have a better read in due course.

I do not know about that. I am interested here in certain proposals that were sent up to the Minister and I would like to see where they are shown in the returns that have been given or whether, as has been put to me by the Leas-Cheann Comhairle, anything devoted to agriculture is taboo.

Except in relation to the Estimate before the House.

I am more anxious to know what became of these proposals and to know the manner in which this money was spent. I regret I was not here when the Minister was introducing his Estimate but I would like to find that out. I am very worried about the reduction in this Estimate. How far does the Minister expect the £3,000,000 will go? There is very little use in the Minister telling me that unemployment is reduced according to some statistics of some legal luminary in his Department who has reduced them down to 62,000. After all the Minister paid £1,000,000 in increased pay to the civil servants.

That has nothing to do with the National Development Fund.

Great play has been made here to-night of the reduction in the numbers of unemployed and I am giving my opinion that it is only on paper that the number has been reduced. And the civil servants got £1,000,000. I am sorry that I was not here when the Minister gave his statement because I would then be able to follow up these proposals better. As soon as I have looked at them I hope to have the pleasure of putting a few questions to the Minister. If there is not in it what I am hoping is in it he will hear further about it.

I rise but briefly to compliment the Minister on the £400,000 allocated for the development of Cork Harbour and to record my very strong objection to the previous speaker's attack on the development being done by the Cork Harbour Commissioners. If Deputy Corry had his way there would be no oil refinery in County Cork.

It was there before the Deputy thought of it.

Deputy Barry is in possession.

He would have it a silted-up and rock-strewn harbour and he attacks the Cork Harbour Commissioners for endeavouring to make it one of the finest harbours in Europe. Deputy Corry should not have taken into this House a dispute he has had with the Cork Harbour Commissioners for a number of years.

Now that the Cork Deputies have settled their argument, I may be permitted——

Have they settled it? I thought Deputy MacCarthy was going to join it.

I may be permitted to say that I am disappointed that the Minister comes to the House with a Supplementary Estimate which involves curtailed expenditure under the National Development Fund. When the National Development Fund was set up in 1953 it was established to deal specifically with pockets of unemployment and to provide useful work and useful schemes for the community, both urban and rural. My principal interest in the National Development Fund was from the rural point of view and I think most country people will be inclined to take a rather poor view of the saving of upwards of £2,000,000 or more under the heading of the National Development Fund, especially the money that was devoted to special employment schemes.

We are all well aware that Ministers and others are deploring the flight from the land and the low output in agricultural areas. I think they fail to see that the action the Government is taking in this matter is going to help on this trend rather than to do something useful about it. I refer to roads in country areas—accommodation roads and link roads. Last year moneys were devoted from the fund to help to provide and to resurface those roads. Now, after the very bad year we have had, some of them resemble dried-up river beds rather than roads and I deprecate the fact that the Special Employment Schemes Office will not be in a position to allocate moneys. When roads come up for sanction they will not be in a position to sanction schemes suitable and useful to rural dwellers.

County councils are being put to the pins of their collars at the present time trying to cope with increased rates, and all over the country at the various estimates meetings the whole cry has been to keep down the rates. Does the Minister think that the various county councils will be in a position in the future to deal with the types of road in regard to which I speak? Or does he think it fair to the rural dwellers that this saving should be made partially, at any rate, at their expense? We had come to expect great things from the National Development Fund in the direction of which I have spoken. For a number of years the Special Employment Schemes Office Vote has been a handy Vote for many Ministers for Finance to use the axe on and there has always been the temptation for a Minister, if he falls short on any other Vote, to take it from the Special Employment Schemes Office. That, to my mind, is all the more reason why this fund should be kept on.

At the outset in 1953, when the fund was being established, a list of proposals was sent forward on behalf of every county council. A list of schemes was made out by the various engineers employed in the various counties. Those proposals contained works which would be useful and beneficial to each area, having a high labour content and designed to promote, if you like, the progress of the people living there. Some of them dealt with the provision of fair greens. I am not going to mention amenity schemes because in times of stringency I do not believe in sporting money in that fashion, but I would now suggest to the Minister that he would reconsider the proposal here and that he would recall the fact that, now that the health and hygiene laws are being enforced against the shopkeepers in various towns, the shopkeepers are forced, if you like, to expend money on the reconstruction of their premises in order to provide better facilities for the storage of food and that sort of thing. Is it fair to them, in the circumstances, to hold a fair every month at their door and at the same time expect them to keep their premises in order?

Now I submit that some of the moneys from the National Development Fund were intended to provide every provincial town with a proper fair green? I feel sure that the people of the various country towns will take a poor view of the saving that is being made under this heading. It has been amusing of late to listen to some of the Minister's statements throughout the country, notably to Deputy McGilligan speaking recently in Galway when he stated that Fianna Fáil, while in Government, always had the habit of overbudgeting and that they always provided for surpluses of from £10,000,000 to £15,000,000.

On the other hand, the Minister for Finance, when he was speaking in Wicklow recently, made the statement that our affairs, finance and fiscal policy were in general sound enough.

I never said any such thing.

Yes, the Minister did recently when speaking in Wicklow.

That the Fianna Fáil policy was sound enough?

That our economic and fiscal policy was in a sound condition.

I beg the Deputy's pardon. I thought he had said "Fianna Fáil policy."

The Minister could have said that Fianna Fáil policy was sound, too, and if he had said that he would not be making any mistake.

If I had said that I would have to begin to wonder what effect the dinner had on me.

At any rate, the Minister for Social Welfare speaking elsewhere, was deploring the fact that the Government were working on a Fianna Fáil Budget. In view of this economy drive, when the axe begins to fall, it might be no harm if the Minister for Finance held a conclave consisting of himself, the Minister for Social Welfare, and the Attorney-General, to discover who is right, and whom we are to believe in this matter.

How does all this work in with the Estimate?

It is all very, very interesting, and perhaps the Deputy might be allowed to develop it.

Deputy MacBride dwelt at length on these matters and therefore we on this side of the House might be allowed to say a word in reply.

The Deputy will if it has any relevance to the Estimate.

It has relevance in this way that this Estimate deals with moneys to be provided for the National Development Fund. Where are they to come from? I suggest that if Deputy McGilligan, the Attorney-General, is right they should have £15,000,000 or £20,000,000 to supplement this National Development Fund, and that we should not be scraping along with £5,000,000. The Minister for Finance seems in a sort of way to bear me out but did not say so exactly. However, if all this surplus cash is kicking around the Exchequer, there should be no need for the axe to fall on the National Development Fund. I consider it was a very useful fund.

I think Deputy Lemass said it was going to be £10,000,000 more.

That money could be switched to relieve pockets of unemployment on schemes sanctioned which had a high labour content. Usually, the schemes carried out were of use and benefit.

Deputy MacBride talked rather in the abstract. It is hard to apologise, but he tried to cover up his apology by saying that the moneys in the National Development Fund should be gambled in a risk to keep down the bank rate. I submit that that amounts to thimble-rigging and nothing else. It amounts to the thimble and the two dice under the thimble. He suggested to the Minister that the moneys belonging to the National Development Fund should be used in order to keep down the bank rate.

I did not hear him say that.

Evidently, he fears a further increase in the bank rate. With the increase that has already taken place, Deputy MacBride will be busy eating his own speeches for the next four or five years.

Would the Deputy mind elucidating the statement he has just made about a further increase?

I suggest to Deputy MacBride that he should realise some of his external assets which we heard so much about when we were at the other side of the House.

The Deputy has just said that there has been an increase in the bank rate.

According to Deputy MacBride we had millions of pounds invested abroad at that time, and surely a miserable saving of £2,000,000 on the National Development Fund is not going to save the life of the Government or Deputy MacBride. I say to Deputy MacBride that he should suggest to his colleagues in the Government that they should withdraw some of these external assets to relieve them in their present plight if they are so hard pressed to find a couple of million pounds.

I represent a country area, and I feel sorry that we are not going to have the schemes that we were looking forward to. All these were schemes that provided very useful services both from the labour point of view and from the point of view of providing better conditions for our people who live in the rural areas. I feel sorry that this fund is getting the axe.

Deputy Tully referred to what could be done for the unemployed. I suggest to the Deputy that it would be much better to spend £5,000,000 or £6,000,000 on the National Development Fund in order to help to relieve the unemployed than to be cutting a couple of million pounds off. Surely the Deputy is not so dense as not to realise that he is putting his hand to the axe that is going to fall on this fund and that by doing so he is making himself a party to, if you like, creating unemployment.

Those of us who come from country areas, naturally, have the duty of making a case for our own areas. As I said at the outset, the rate of migration and emigration from the country areas is deplorable, while the state of the roads, especially the secondary roads and the accommodation roads, is also deplorable. I suggest to the Minister for Finance and to the Government, now that housing is so far advanced and that rural electrification, farm improvement schemes and works of that kind are so well under way, that a special effort should be made to provide money for the Employment Schemes Office in order that it may be in a position at least of putting those secondary roads into a state of repair so as to ensure safety to life and limb for those who have to travel over them.

We heard figures quoted for unemployment and we heard of the 1952 Budget. The Government, surely, are relying no longer for propaganda on the 1952 Budget, but it is a peculiar thing to say that both the unemployment of which we heard so much and the 1952 Budget were the direct result of their policy from 1948 to 1951. If they want to find proof of that they can do so in the records to be found in the Library.

I think that the 1952 Budget is about played out. The propaganda on that must cease. The Government must show results and stand on their own feet and not come in here with a smoke screen by cutting the Vote by £2,000,000, and then try to refute the suggestion that they are not going to be responsible for the increase in unemployment or for denying facilities to areas which are very much in need of them. We, for our part, do not expect that. I think it is a retrograde step to take £2,000,000 from the National Development Fund at this stage. When first established, it was a mobile fund, from which moneys could be switched around without too much red-tape being involved; it was a fund, too, upon which the Department of Finance would not find it easy to get their claws on.

I appeal to the Minister to resist some of his colleagues in the Government and the advice of his Department and restore this £2,000,000 to the National Development Fund. He will find that that will pay in the long run from the point of view of labour content, public health and the cutting down of unemployment. We, on this side of the House, would be very grateful to the Minister if he would adopt that course.

May I say, in relation to the speech made here earlier this evening by Deputy Corry, that it seems to me that, on occasions, there is no limit to the absurdity of the kind of case Deputy Corry is prepared to make; it was not perhaps strictly relevant to this debate but I might be allowed to answer it for a moment? Deputy Corry told a story about people paying 63/- an acre for land which they can only see when the tide goes out. Speaking from recollection, two Land Acts—the Act of 1936 and the Act of 1939—provided for the writing-off of the land annuities where land was permanently submerged and land was deemed to be permanently submerged if it was covered by the tides, even though it might be uncovered when the tide went out. If the case Deputy Corry was making is, in fact, the true case, one is compelled to ask oneself why the farmers in his constituency do not write to the Land Commission and get the entire annuity or the relevant portion of it written off? However, even from Deputy Corry one gets some points of wisdom. He said to-night that he would rather have one man in permanent employment than ten employed in makeshift jobs. I think most of us would prefer to see men in permanent employment rather than in makeshift jobs.

I come now to Deputy Briscoe's contribution to this debate. Deputy Briscoe was chairman of a special works committee here in Dublin, a committee for the purpose of implementing the work under this National Development Fund when it was first set up. Now, my recollection is that Deputy Briscoe worked very hard on that committee, but it seems to me that his efforts, which were really attempts to offset the effects of the 1952 Budget, to which the last speaker referred, were not appreciated by the people of Dublin as a whole. Deputy Briscoe referred to the area from Inchicore to Ringsend. I cannot see why, in relation to this particular Vote, the people who represent that area should not speak on the Vote because it was in that area that the worst effects of the 1952 Budget were felt.

We all know that this fund, or something very like it—the exact machinery does not matter—was necessary in the winter of 1952-1953 to counteract the effects of the 1952 Budget. Of course, the members of the Party opposite were not prepared to eat their words quite as quickly as that. Matters became really serious in the following summer and their tenure of office was beginning to look as if it might not last quite as long as it promised in the winter of 1952-53 and by the autumn of 1953 things were looking a good deal blacker. It was then they set about seeing what they could do to retrieve the situation.

Now unemployment is linked up with this National Development Fund and I would say straight away that unemployment was at its worst in the Ringsend area. I happen to know that it was far worse in the winter of 1952-1953 than in the winter of 1953-1954 because by the winter of 1953-1954 large numbers of workers had left the area to go to England, particularly in the early spring of that year.

I notice, again in relation to the contribution made by Deputy Briscoe, that expenditure in the last month of the financial year for some years past was quite even. In March, 1951, it was £13,000,000 odd; in March, 1952, it was £13,000,000 odd; in March 1953, it was £14,000,000 odd and in March, 1954, it was £21,000,000. The £5,000,000 voted under this fund was, of course, included in that £21,000,000. Again, I think that was an effort on the part of the present Opposition to render conditions more favourable for the Budget they were about to introduce. That view is borne out if one reads the couple of paragraphs in relation to the National Development Fund in Deputy MacEntee's Budget speech— he was then Minister for Finance— with that idea in mind.

I was interested in Deputy Childers' remarks about the desirability of providing schemes for cyclical unemployment. That is something with which we would all be prepared to agree, but, at the same time, I cannot help feeling that this fund was not provided to deal with the problem of cyclical unemployment. The only effort that Fianna Fáil ever made to meet that situation was that made by Deputy MacEntee when Minister for Local Government at the end of the war. Most Ministers at that time might well have been planning for the post-war period, but the then Minister for Local Government was the only one who did. He provided a fair number of schemes of a cyclical kind, but my recollection is that these schemes were to provide employment for our returned emigrants from the munition factories in England. We all know that far from this migrants' returning, their numbers were added to. I am not suggesting for a moment that the Party opposite was responsible for that situation at that particular time. Because of our policy of neutrality and the stand we had taken in the war, we did not get supplies of raw materials as quickly as other countries got them.

Deputy Childers spoke at some length about the desirability of doing some work on the country roads as compared with the main roads. A few days ago Deputy Fagan gave me some figures for the County Westmeath, but I am speaking now from recollection. There was a provision of £360,000 from all sources for main roads and a provision of £90,000 for county roads; in other words, about five times as much per mile was being provided by the Party opposite for main roads as compared with county roads. I cannot see how such a provision can be justified. Deputy Childers, who represented Longford-Westmeath at that time, was a member of the Government that set out in the main the allocations which resulted in that expenditure, and I think it was up to him and his Party rather than to us to remedy that discrepancy. The former Minister for Finance, when introducing the Bill for this fund, stated that it provided not more than £5,000,000 for capital development, which is in the national interest. That is one very good reason why we should support the Minister for Finance in passing this Estimate.

Not only to-day, but during the past three or four weeks, we have listened to a great deal of recapitulation, and a rather inordinate amount of recrimination, while the country cries for national development, for work for the unemployed, and for the exile to be reunited with his family. I think that this kind of epilogue of election speeches and propaganda in a constituent Assembly such as ours is inclined to bring it down to a level that those who fought for it never intended. Proposals which come before this House should be discussed on their merits, remedies suggested, and a constructive programme outlined which would be of some benefit to the country.

While many of the speeches made this evening put points to the Minister which I think he should consider, those which are fundamental to our country depend entirely on the development of our principal industry, agriculture-the improvement of the land, and better production. Even though Deputy Corry was criticised by the Parliamentary Secretary for his references to erosion, anybody who travels around this island will see the danger of losing much of our land in that way. If the Parliamentary Secretary would go down to Garryvoe College and see the cement constructions erected there five or six years ago to preserve the land about the college, and see the inroads made by the tides during the past few years, he would realise there was much point in what the Deputy said. He would also see the encroachment of the tides on the marshes in the surrounding area.

When remedies are proposed for the preservation of land which is already fertile, I think it should be part of our national development, year by year, to take at least some section of our coastal area, and preserve it. There are too many acres of waste land in this country. Marsh lands which are overgrown with rushes and furze would be tackled on a far bigger scale in Belgium or Holland than any Government here so far has done. Of course, that is linked up with drainage, and if we are waiting for drainage of the main catchment areas and neglecting entirely improvements which could be effected by local schemes, I think by the time we have come to it, many of those who are skilled and experienced in manual labour will have departed from the farms into the towns, or beyond the towns to far-off lands. If we want to have competent workers to do what is needed to bring our waste lands to fertility, matters should be tackled now in a big way. I suggest that drainage and reclamation should be consolidated under a board somewhat on the lines of Bord na Móna, the E.S.B. or Comhlucht Siúicre na hÉireann.

The Deputy is getting away from the Estimate.

With all respect, I am not getting away from the question of national development. That is the basis of this Vote. In this way, work would be given not only to the small farmer, but it would also help to keep the agricultural worker on the soil at a good wage. As Deputy Corry said, the return which the agricultural worker gets is not at all compatible with what is given in industry generally. Whether the farmer can afford it is another matter. In order to enable him to do so, his production will have to improve. It is not by cutting down the prices of wheat or barley, or discouraging him, that he is likely to succeed.

Reference has been made to-day to by-roads and accommodation roads. These are in a pitiable state during the winter months. It is regrettable that people have to use muddy lane-ways, and be splashed by cars of all descriptions, on their way to Mass, and all the rest of it. It is regrettable that we should pay so much attention to major developments on the major roads while neglecting roads which lead from the farmhouse or cottage. Unless we make the environment of the rural dweller brighter and better, he will seek other methods of livelihood in his fruitful years, no matter what we may say, no matter what platitudes we may utter. Only work and service by this House in the production of legislation which will benefit the people is going to have its effect, not weeks of talking around subjects, and doing nothing, which I regret to say, is often the result of our labours here.

We must look to the environment of the man on the land who produces the fundamental things needed for our national economy, and give to him in his own surroundings a brighter home in which to live, and better prospects of employment nearby. Those are the things to which national development should be devoted. Many of the things to which the Minister has spoken were initiated by Fianna Fáil. Many of these are good in themselves, but even, as Deputy Corry said, we are not satisfied with the amount of patchwork. Development schemes which would bring some encouragement to the people should be carried out on a national basis.

Our purpose here is to try to serve the interests of the nation and to improve the conditions of the country dwellers so that they may remain on the land. There are considerable areas along the river estuaries, in comparatively poor counties, congested areas and even in rich counties, where gradual development and reclamation would add to productivity by creating fertile soil and level fields where there are now only muddy banks. Workers from towns and cities could be brought out to do this work. Instead of being given the insufficient unemployment dole, they could be engaged in productive employment in this way. If we apply ourselves to these things and tackle them on a national basis our country will get somewhere. If we treat this matter merely as a subject for debate as to what some Minister said on an election platform or in a similar debate last year or ten years ago the National Development Fund will not have the results that the people are hoping for.

We should give the foresight and the leadership that the country needs. Instead of droning about emigration and unemployment and making propaganda about these national ills, we should do something to cure them. That is our function. All sides of the House should tackle the problem. There is no useful purpose to be served by members on one side of the House telling members on the other side that there was more unemployment when they were in office.

World changes may create unemployment. A change in legislation may bring about a change in statistics. These things prove nothing. It is by going amongst the people and keeping in contact with them, hearing what they have to say, trying to do something to meet their needs that we may be able to uplift our country, a cause for which countless generations suffered. That should be our purpose.

The debate on the National Development Fund is one occasion on which we have an opportunity to put constructive suggestions to the Minister. The suggestions that I would put to him are, to use the National Development Fund to improve the environment of rural workers; to use it for road development; to use it to create employment in improving byroads and lane-ways. At present the people have not sufficient machinery to carry out schemes of rural improvement and if the county council machinery is used in big road development—and I do not object to that—it means concentrating too much effort at the one time. It is far better to have gradual development of remote rural areas. We should try to improve the fertility of the soil and create a better spirit amongst our people.

I intervene just to thank the Minister for allowing the scheme for Rossmanagher to go through. I am sure it gave him a great deal of anxiety to sanction such a large sum. I would ask the Minister to make a definite statement. It is purely a personal political matter. I would ask him to state if that scheme was ready before he went into office and, if he is prepared to deny that, if he will place the records before the House.

If the Deputy wants an answer now, the Minister in the previous Government withdrew consideration of that scheme from the National Development Fund Committee.

It was withdrawn?

Yes, by your Minister. He would not ask for sanction for it.

As I understood it, the matter had gone for sanction immediately prior to the election.

I asked a question in the House last week but the answer was so worded as to prevent anybody getting any information from it.

The question was so worded?

No, the answer. I thank the Minister for permitting the sanction of £100,000.

£79,000. The scheme was badly needed for many years. I suppose the Minister is aware now that it was a situation which could readily have been repaired early on for a much smaller sum. Rossmanagher is a good lesson to anybody in authority. Money has been lost because there was no machinery available by which responsibility could be taken for the work. In its own way, this scheme justifies the National Development Fund, which was brought in by Fianna Fáil. I compliment the new Government on changing their attitude to the fund.

I was in the House when the National Development Fund Bill was first introduced. The Minister for Agriculture, Deputy Dillon, as he then was, likened the Bill to a plum pudding being distributed to the people by Santa Claus, the Taoiseach at the time. He called it a trick—I think, a particularly low, dirty kind of trick. I gathered from his attitude towards it that if Fine Gael had their way this Bill would not be put before the House and the scheme would not operate.

As I have said, I think this is a particularly useful mechanism for getting work which is not the particular responsibility of any Department carried out. It may lead to the expedition of repairs which have become more than necessarily expensive because of delay.

I would ask the Minister to consider the development of slipways and roads leading to the tide, with a view to facilitating people collecting weeds from the sea for the new industries on the western coast. There is a problem created by the fact that slipways and roads to the tide are not the responsibility of anybody. At this time of the year all concerned are anxious that the slipways should be repaired because in another month the work of collecting weeds will commence. We do not know where we can turn for an early decision. I think the Minister should get this into a separate department and get the slipways and seaside roads repaired to facilitate these people who collect weeds.

Whatever the motive of its birth, the National Development Fund should be directed towards coping with our now familiar friend or enemy, emigration. In the main, emigration is from the small holdings in the West of Ireland. Some speakers in this House have blamed the different Governments on account of emigration while other speakers think the westerners should not emigrate. I can safely say that if any member of Dáil Éireann had to live in some of the holdings in West Clare they would not stay a night in them. They would fly out of them. Anybody with a true knowledge of the position as it exists in some parts of Clare and who then asks the people there to stay at home and try to make a living at home—anybody who makes such appeals without becoming familiar, first of all, with the conditions existing in the backward places—can only be described as innocent or as hypocrites.

In my view, the Minister would do a lot of credit to himself and to his Government if he made an all-out effort to find some way of building roads and clearing rivers in an endeavour to make the miserable holdings near them more liveable. As a matter of fact, the people living in small holdings are more inclined to stay at home, and why they stay in these backward and unhelped places is more than I can understand. There is no road leading into most of them. If you apply for a road the answer you receive from the Minister's Department is likely to be that the number of people in the particular district is not sufficiently high to warrant the expenditure that would be involved.

I submit that hardship is individual and that emigration is individual. Even though the Department will act only where large numbers are concerned, I submit that large numbers of individuals are concerned and there should be some way of helping individuals who have not a large number of neighbours to strengthen their case for them. It is miserable to think of these people being forgotten—and they are forgotten. Any member of this House must feel cynical when he is asked to approach the Department for the purpose of having a road repaired or a river cleaned in a backward area. The Deputy will always get the reply that there are not enough people affected to justify the expenditure which would be involved. The same remarks apply to the question of the drainage of lands. You will be told that there is not enough land together in West Clare to justify the undertaking.

In all the circumstances, I do not blame the young men who are stuck in such backward and unhelped places from flying out of the country. Every politician and every Government says they have a cure for emigration, but the trouble is that they are looking for one panacea, an overnight cure. Factories, in themselves, will not cure emigration—and you will never get enough factories throughout the country to absorb all our unemployed. The only way to help to stop people from leaving the country is to give them at least as good a place to live in as most people in the cities give their animals. It is disgraceful to think of the way the West of Ireland has been neglected by successive Governments. Something will have to be done about the plight of people there, and done quickly. To talk about it, and to do nothing else, it just hypocrisy. If the Government are not prepared to spend money, and spend it extravagantly, on those backward areas in County Clare then we shall never be able to attract the people there to remain in their own country rather than emigrate to England and other places where they can get a living.

I appeal most earnestly to the Minister to turn his attention to the West of Ireland and particularly to those unfortunate people living in small holdings under miserable conditions. I appeal to him to help those people. At some stage in our home Government there will come one person who will direct his attention to the problem and who will direct the money which must be available in view of the size of our Budgets—to help the small holders in the West of Ireland who at present have to flee from the hardships they are suffering from in their homes.

I will conclude by thanking the Minister for sanctioning the scheme for Rossmanagher, in which I have had an interest for a number of years.

A good deal of interest has been focused on this National Development Fund—on its utility and on its elasticity. One would think, listening to the arguments here, that there was no development in this country prior to the creation of this National Development Fund. One of the speakers on the Opposition Benches said that the National Development Fund was launched to deal with pockets of unemployment in this country. The fact that there were pockets of unemployment demonstrates that all was not well with this State and a National Development Fund had to be launched to deal with that unemployment. It proves conclusively that all was not well with our Irish economy. Now that we have this National Development Fund, it is the responsibility of the Minister to see that the fund is utilised for works of national importance—works that will give considerable employment, works that will be productive and works that will add to the wealth of this State. In my view, there should be a clear definition of what is meant by "development". One Deputy on the Opposition Benches spoke of fair greens. I agree that a fair green is necessary adjacent to any town, but surely any enterprising local fair committee should be able to raise sufficient funds to deal with the local fair green adjacent to any town in this State. In my view, the money should go towards works of greater and more national importance. Afforestation opens up a wide field for development in this State. Such development would add immensely to our ultimate wealth.

I do not believe that county roads should get priority in any scheme of development. We had a lot of controversy in the different papers about the Bray road—and, being so near the metropolis, public opinion had its effect. There is a ten-mile stretch on the Cork-Fermoy road, this side of Cork, on which at least £100,000 must have been spent in the last year and a half. That much money was spent on a road that was already beautifully surfaced and quite pleasing to every motorist. I hold that that expenditure no matter how desirable, was utterly unjustifiable. Frontages leading to farmers' and private residences were interfered with and some farmers lost as much as six acres of land. The former road will now become disused and no effort will be made to reclaim it and make it arable in future years. That is not development. The Minister should give us the definition of "development". It would have been far better for this country if that money had been spent on the opening up of byroads. That would certainly mean greater development. It would give greater employment. It would relieve a good deal of the traffic that now passes along the main roads and such relief would, in turn, lessen the maintenance costs in respect of these main roads. I have every confidence that the Minister will look into this question of development and see that the money is spent only on schemes which will add to our eventual national wealth.

I should like to join with Deputy Carter in an appeal that the 1952 Budget should be let rest and, if it cannot be let rest, then I think the Government ought to do something about repealing it and not, by riding the two horses at the same time, operate the 1952 Budget and get the financial benefits from it and, at the same time, blame Fianna Fáil for whatever hardship the remedy which the 1952 Budget contained for the legacy which the Coalition Government handed to their successors.

When the National Development Fund was brought in, the claim was made on behalf of the organised unemployed—I think it was made by Labour Deputies—that it was the sit down demonstrations in Dublin that produced the National Development Fund.

I heard Deputy Larkin saying a while ago that if it had not been for the change of Government nothing would have been heard about the National Development Fund. Assuming for argument's sake that the sit down demonstrations produced that fund, it is extraordinary what a great quietude and complacency has fallen upon the organised demonstrators because the total of registered unemployed has dropped from 77,000 to 72,000. If one studies the leaflets issued every two or three weeks since the change of Government, one finds that the decrease in registered unemployed has taken place in those classes which have been provided for by the expenditure under the fund and that for those who are in insurable employment, for the greater part of the latter half of last year the numbers were 3,000 less than they were a year previously. So that instead of the change of Government giving the type of employment which a great many have paid lip service to here to-night, in fact that type of employment showed a decrease during the latter half of 1954.

The Minister has stated that £153,000 was allocated for expenditure on projects which were calculated to benefit the Gaeltacht areas and that this expenditure requires—or did require during the period of the previous Government and I understood from the Minister that it still requires —the approval of the Taoiseach in respect of each individual submission. Now, it is in connection with that expenditure that I want to make the principal point that worries me in relation to the administration of this fund. I cannot say to what extent sit down demonstrations in Dublin have produced this fund, but I do know that there was a very consistent and persistent demand for a fund of some sort for remote areas whose development could not possibly be financed from the resources of local authorities.

I am satisfied that the case of these remote areas was as much present to the mind of the previous Government in bringing this fund into existence as any sit down demonstration in any city in Ireland. Signs on it, a great many schemes were either produced or in course of being produced when the change of Government took place. A lot of them would have benefited the undeveloped areas, that coast of ours from the north to the south along the Atlantic.

I want to draw the attention of the Minister to the very shabby treatment which has been meted out to one of these remote areas, one of the remotest we have got, by the present administration of this fund. I cannot put my finger on the individual Minister responsible for the administration of the part of the fund which has been set aside for these Gaeltacht and remote areas. I refer to a sum of about £10,000 provided for the improvement of landing facilities in one of the Aran Islands, Inis Thiar. The Board of Works inspectors did the necessary examination and presented a report. The recommendation was based entirely on technical considerations and their recommendation was altered, on their own submission, on a subsequent investigation of the island and an alternative proposal was put up. The original proposal had gone through the machine and had received the approbation of the Taoiseach, which it was bound to receive before it could become effective.

The Taoiseach of the last Government was most anxious that these remote areas, particularly those which are Fíor-Ghaeltacht, should get every possible assistance and get it as quickly as possible, and the Taoiseach did not delay a moment when the proposal came before him, in giving it the necessary approval. This proposal was altered, on the initiative of the Office of Public Works, in favour of a better proposal costing slightly more but not so much more as to make a whole lot of difference in the matter of giving approval.

Might I intervene to ask the Deputy is this Inis Thiar or Inis Mean?

Inis Thiar. The election took place and there was a change of Government. The Taoiseach—acting on what I understand is the usual practice, and for which he was commended this evening by the Minister for Finance—did not make any decisions on any proposals, after the result of the election became known. I myself made an application to the Taoiseach to have this particular proposition sanctioned, but I got the reply which the Minister is aware of generally in relation to the conduct of a Government defeated in the election. I move the adjournment of the debate.

Debate adjourned.
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