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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 5 Jun 1956

Vol. 157 No. 10

Committee on Finance. - Vote 38—Local Government (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:—
That the Estimates be referred back for reconsideration.—(Deputy Briscoe).

Those of us who are members of local bodies who rise to speak on this Estimate must bear in mind the implications that lie behind the withdrawal of the grant in respect of the improvement of main roads. How will that affect local authorities? The main impact of that withdrawal will not be felt until local authorities come to strike their rates next year. I wonder if the Labour Deputies who have spoken on this Estimate so far have considered the possibility of local bodies having to supplement the funds at their disposal in order to keep their road workers in employment.

We have had some Labour Deputies stressing their desire to have more moneys placed at the disposal of local authorities for the upkeep of the ordinary county roads; they would prefer to have the moneys spent in that direction rather than on major improvements on main roads. I am one of those who have always maintained that we should give more attention to the ordinary county roads used for the most part by the ordinary people. When Labour Deputies, especially Deputy Desmond, say that it is better to spend more money on county roads rather than on the major improvement of main roads, it strikes me that they have not considered the fact that the withdrawal of £500,000 from works on our main roads has not effected a corresponding increase in the amount of money available for county roads.

How will local bodies react to the withdrawal of these moneys from our main roads? How do Labour Deputies propose that county councils will find the necessary moneys to keep the road workers in employment? Do they suggest that the local authority must strike a higher rate next year or will they have to close down on such work for a month or two months to the detriment of the workers concerned? The Labour Deputies, who should, indeed, be most concerned about this matter, should give a full explanation of their attitude now. It is no good saying they prefer to have more money spent on county roads rather than on main road improvements when the money is not there for either the one or the other.

While I agree that more money should be made available for the ordinary county roads, I think certain major improvements are vitally necessary on our main roads both in the interests of the public generally and in the interests of safety. We must cater for our growing motor traffic. If we do not do that, then the local bodies which withhold these moneys from such works must bear their share of the responsibility when major accidents occur. Nobody will deny that a good many of our main roads are still in need of major improvements—the removal of dangerous bends and dangerous corners, and so forth. These are works upon which large numbers are employed in my county at any rate, and we will find ourselves faced with the responsibility of providing alternative employment for these workers if road works close down. It will be interesting to see how those who support the withdrawal of these funds will react when the time comes in the various local authorities.

There is a matter which has been referred to by a number of Deputies on both sides of the House. I commend it now to the attention of the Minister. I refer to the giving of driving licences to any applicant who applies. There is no restriction whatever on the granting of such licences. To my knowledge, a person may send in his neighbour for his driving licence and so obtain it. The time has come when somebody in authority must insist that the issue of a driver's licence must always be by test. In my opinion, an applicant should submit himself or herself to a test in order to qualify for a licence. There are too many road accidents these days, and I think it would go a long way towards remedying that situation, if there were some form of test before the issue of a driver's licence.

A good number of Deputies would not have cars, if that were the case.

That is a very helpful contribution. On this Estimate, year after year, I have stated that I am not satisfied with the way money is being spent under the Local Authorities (Works) Act. I have referred to the fact that a good deal of money is spent on the improvement of drains and rivers at a period of the year when these drains and rivers are overflowing their banks. I admit a good deal of useful work has been done under the Act, but I do say that a good deal of money has been wasted, because these works begin some time in October and must be finished by the end of March. Very often, the work is going on around Christmas time when the rivers are flooded. I have seen gangs of men at work myself. They can wade in as far as the banks of the river all right, but they cannot see the main river; they can only feel it. They can cut down the overhanging banks of the drain or river with a knife, but that is as far as they can go.

Everyone knows that money spent at that time of the year on work of that kind is quite useless. If a quarter of the money made available for such work were spent on such drains during the dry period, it would do five times more valuable work than when it is spent at the time of the year when there are floods. I suggest that the Minister might give this matter his attention. The time has come when every halfpenny must be saved, and this is one way that money could be saved and put into more useful work.

I would also draw the Minister's attention to a matter that is causing concern to certain people using the roads. I do not know whether or not it comes within the ambit of the Minister's Department, but it is a matter that affects road traffic. If a bad accident, involving a number of vehicles, occurs, the vehicles must not be moved from their position. In the past year or so, I had the experience of coming across such an accident. One of the cars involved was that of a cross-Channel tourist and it had a trailer caravan attached. Luckily enough, nobody was hurt, but the result of the accident was that all traffic was held up for two hours. There was a queue at each side of the scene of the accident, and the accident occurred within less than 200 yards of a Garda barracks; but because the spot was not within the area of that barracks, the authorities there could not deal with the accident. They delayed the whole volume of traffic for two hours in order to get in touch with another barracks eight miles away.

Would not that be a matter for the Department of Justice?

I have already stated that I was not sure whether it came within the ambit of the Minister's Department or not. It affects road traffic.

I think the Deputy might have a try at the Department of Justice.

I bow to your ruling, Sir.

The Minister for Justice makes the regulations, with the approval of the Minister for Local Government.

I suggest the Minister for Local Government take the matter up with the Minister for Justice. This has occurred on two occasions.

It is a matter for the Commissioner of the Garda actually.

I will raise the matter again on the Estimate for the Department of Justice.

For some time past, in nearly all local authorities, there have been applications for labourers' cottages. The local authority—in many cases, the county council—will inspect the site for a county council cottage. When it has been inspected by their engineers and health authorities, they have to refer the matter to the Department's inspector, who will also have to come down and inspect. In the case of small rural areas and small towns that need these cottages, I suggest that it would expedite the building of such cottages if the Minister would give full authority to the responsible officers in the local authority to sanction on their own the sites for such cottages and not have the delay involved in referring to the Department. Surely, when a small village requires a couple of cottages, it should not be necessary to refer to the Local Government Department, who will have to send down an inspector—who comes after the local authority inspectors—to accept or reject such sites? There is a lot of delay and expense there which could be avoided if the engineering staff and health authorities of the local authority could themselves decide what would be a good site for a cottage and what would not. I suggest to the Minister that he give this matter consideration, because I think it would expedite the building of rural cottages for workers.

In the granting of what are known as tourist grants, I notice that a lot of the money is being spent for the purpose of developing areas which, in my opinion, are already overdeveloped and overpopulated. A lot of this money is being spent to attract more and more people into certain areas, which will, of themselves, attract the tourist, anyway. I suggest that the Minister might consider, instead of sending a lot of this money into certain areas and creating artificial beauty there, sending it out the country, opening up the countryside and opening up the natural beauties of the countryside. Much of the natural beauty of the country is obscured from the view of the tourist by unsightly hedges along country roads.

Hear, hear! I am in full agreement with the Deputy.

I might get somewhere so.

And I have issued instructions to all local authorities to prosecute farmers who will not cut their hedges.

Prosecute farmers? I object strongly, and here is where I differ from the Minister. You may prosecute a farmer for not cutting his hedges, but the farmer can comply with the law and still obscure the view from the roadside, because the farmer is within the law, if he cuts the hedge straight up from the wall. My point is that the Minister could send some of the money that is being spent in the concentrated areas out into the rural areas to keep the hedges in trim, so that ordinary tourists passing along the road can see the naked beauty of the countryside. I refer especially to a couple of roads, one leading from my own town of Gort into Killaloe, where you have the finest and the most beautiful scenery in the country obscured completely by unsightly hedges, and the other, in the South of Ireland, the road between Newcastle West and Castleisland which is also completely obscured in the same manner.

It is useless to say you will prosecute the farmers. If the local authorities carry out an instruction to prosecute farmers who will not trim their hedges, that does not solve the problem. The main purpose of cutting the hedges should be to obtain a view, but the farmer can comply with the regulations without giving a view. That is why I suggest to the Minister that he might, through the local authority, devote some money to keeping these hedges in trim. If the hedges have been cut down once, they can be kept in trim by mechanical means. You have tractors available nowadays that can cut miles and miles of these hedges in a couple of hours and so open up the countryside to tourists who want to see the countryside and not the towns and cities which have been overdeveloped. As time goes on and when these improvements have been made, you might have wayside inns provided for them where they can get refreshments rather than have to rush back to the nearest town miles away.

I referred to the delay in the sanctioning of sites for county council cottages, and I would include in that also sewerage schemes for small villages. That is a matter in which there is also a good deal of delay. The local authority engineers and the health authority officials carry out an inspection and are satisfied that the work should be done in a certain manner. Nevertheless, the Department, of Local Government are not satisfied without sending down another host of officials to inspect again. A great deal of money and useful time could be spared by allowing the local authority officials, who are highly competent on these problems, to deal with this matter, as well as that of the county council cottage. I commend to the Minister these few suggestions I have made which, I believe, would improve the situation generally.

In the interests of economy, we should have a central roads authority. At the moment, we have corporations, county and urban councils, the Board of Works, the Department of Agriculture and various other bodies all working on roads schemes. By having such a central roads authority we would cut out much of this unnecessary expenditure on the employment of engineers and clerical staffs. This is a matter which should be given immediate and full consideration because there is too much overlapping in this respect. An example I would quote is that enormous amounts of machinery are at times idle in one part of a county, and, within a few hundred yards across the border, other schemes are being held up for the want of such machinery. It costs quite a lot to bring machinery from one part of a county to another.

I often wonder if our county engineers or their assistants ever know or care anything about the proper grading of road bends. I believe that many accidents are due to the improper grading of road bends, and that is another matter to which I would draw the Minister's attention. There is also the question of road signs. Tourists, and of course foreign tourists, complain a lot of the lack of road signs in some of our counties on roads that can be described only as death traps. There is also need for the standardisation of danger signs on roads. In one county, you have a road sign which may indicate an autobahn, whereas in another county it might be a sign of danger ahead. There is too much differentiation between one county and another.

While we are on the question of road signs, may I suggest that, in the interest of economy, we should have co-operation from, say, the E.S.B. and the Department of Posts and Telegraphs in allowing their telephone or lamp standards to be used for the purpose of the erection of bus stop, parking and danger signs, as the case may be? It would also save a great deal of unnecessary expenditure.

Another matter which has been the cause of grave concern throughout the country is the number of disused, waterlogged quarry holes which have been claiming yearly a number of young victims. Provision should be made to enable the local authority to deal with this situation which is causing much concern to the people.

There is hardly a town in rural Ireland that has not got its share of derelict sites. Fortunately, that cannot be said for Dublin, but we have it throughout the whole country. Local authorities should be given power to acquire these sites for the purpose of industry, building social clubs, handball or other amenities.

Another matter, which may be one for the Department or the Department of Justice, is the number of tinker encampments along our main roads, especially around our towns. They give a very bad impression to our tourists. When leaving an area, they leave it in a disgraceful condition, and filth and litter strewn around on the outskirts of towns are anything but an addition to them.

Another thing I should like to mention is the design of local authority houses. Do our architects ever visit the houses they design? I think that, if they did, some of them would give up, or rather they would get some food for thought. I hold they should be made live in them for a while, and then we might get houses fit for architects to live in.

A point I should like to mention and a matter that is very pertinent in our country concerns what is a grave abuse at election times. It is the number of road gangers we have acting in any capacity—I do not mind what it is— in election booths. It is a known fact——

Has the Minister any function in regard to that?

I am afraid he has not.

Yes, I hope he has, and I hope he will do something about it.

The Minister says he has not, and I did not think he had.

Well, if the road workers are paid out of public funds, they should attend to their public duties. It is a known fact that the road workers have to come in and vote, and have to vote openly, and they might not turn up for a few days afterwards, or until the following morning at their work. So much for democracy.

Finally, I should like to thank the Minister for his introduction of the Local Government (Amendment) Act, 1955. As a result, we were, I think, one of the only counties, if not the only county, in Ireland which was able to reduce the rates—or, rather, Galway City was able to reduce its rates this year. I thank the Minister on behalf of the citizens of Galway for that.

The matter which I think is of most pressing importance in rural constituencies, so far as this Estimate is concerned, is one which is very much uppermost in the minds of all of us, the question of roads and providing money for roads. I have heard it said on several occasions—I think the Minister himself will scarcely deny that he himself has said it and that it has been said on his behalf as well—that, in the County of Donegal, since he became Minister, he has been the Minister responsible for giving more money towards roads than was ever given before. That would be quite a fine achievement in respect of Donegal or any other county if the facts which I have since elicited by parliamentary question bore out those statements.

On 2nd May last, I had a parliamentary question down in this House asking for the total amount of moneys paid to various local authorities throughout the State in respect of certain years, so far as these road grants are concerned. With the exception of five local authorities, the figures given in this House show that, over the years 1953 to 1956, there has been a decline in the total amount of money provided through the Department of Local Government for the repair, upkeep and maintenance of roads. That, as I say, is bad enough, but when you couple it with the statements to which I have already referred, the situation really assumes rather fearsome proportions. We, in our county, and in other counties for that matter, have been told persistently and repeatedly that we are getting more money now for roads than we ever got before under the present Government, but at the same time we find, from the figures given by the very Department that administers these moneys, those figures do not bear out the statements to which we have listened over the past two years.

In addition to that, we find that, in 1952-53, Deputy Smith, who was then Minister for Local Government, did one job at that time in doing an unpleasant task. He certainly did one job that every member of every local authority felt would pay dividends in the future when it was his unpleasant duty to bring in legislation here effecting an increase in road taxes for vehicles and driving licences. At that time, he gave his pledge, as Minister for Local Government, that all moneys in future coming into the Road Fund would be disbursed to the different counties throughout the land, and he held out the prospect to the motoring fraternity, and to those who must use road transport, that, although these taxes were being increased, they were being increased solely for the benefit of the road system, and those who had to pay the increased burdens which they have since been paying would in return get better roads and get them more quickly. They could be sure that all the moneys put into the Road Fund would come back to their benefit in the future.

Not only was that so, but in the time when Deputy Smith was Minister and when Fianna Fáil were the Government, in addition to the amounts that came into the Road Fund by way of taxation, we also had added very considerable sums from the National Development Fund in order to supplement the Road Fund created by taxes collected from users of the roads. We can find that in the year 1954-55, basing the calculation on the moneys collected in the previous year, that, in addition to the allocations that could be made from the total Road Fund, the Government not only gave back to the roads of the country and to the local authorities the entire amount of money in the Road Fund, but that they also gave £790,000 from the National Development Fund.

Now we come to the second year of office of the present Government and what do we find? We find that the undertaking given by Deputy Smith as Minister for Local Government three years ago in connection with the Road Fund is now being broken and we are no longer to get from the Road Fund as then promised the entire amount of money paid into it by the people paying road taxes. Not only that, but we find we are to give a gift of £500,000 to some other cause within the Government. Not only are we not getting our roads done or money to do them, but we find ourselves in the position that the Road Fund is to be depleted to the tune of £500,000 and at the same time, grants from the National Development Fund are not forthcoming and apparently will not be forthcoming in the future.

To illustrate the situation so far as my own county is concerned, in our county council this year, during the estimates meeting, we found that, in order to do as much work this year as we did last year, we required an additional £47,000 from the rates. That was something which none of us could face up to providing from rates already too high, and the result was that we went as far as we possibly could and added to our own contribution from the rates a total sum of £16,000, or 13.6 pence in the £, increase in our rates this year in order to bolster up the funds for improving and maintaining our roads. Those funds are now less, as I say, by £31,000. There will be £31,000 less work done on Donegal roads this year than was done last year. Despite that, the ratepayers will pay in their rates 13.6d. more this year than they did last year for roads.

If that is not typical of what is going on throughout the country, then the figures I got from the Minister must be wrong. I would say that, if they were wrong, they would be wrong to his advantage because, as they read at the moment, they show a very sorry picture. Anybody who wants to look them up will find in the Official Report for the 2nd May a tabular statement showing the grants for the three financial years 1953-54, 1954-55 and 1955-56. Only five counties have gained anything in those three years. In the other counties, the amount received from the Road Fund for road maintenance has decreased and, according to these figures, whereas Donegal received an allocation of £400,460 from the Fianna Fáil Government in their last year in office, under the present Government, in the following financial year, the allocation was reduced to £384,000. The most glaring example of all is County Clare, for which the figures show an allocation of £90,000 less from the Road Fund and in the various moneys for the upkeep of roads than was received from the Fianna Fáil Government. That goes ill with the statements we have been hearing, particularly when it is considered that the ratepayers are being asked to pay more in order to get less.

In 1953-54 the total rates collected in this country were £15,986,794. That was the last year that Fianna Fáil were in office. For the year 1956-57 the estimated collection—which is easily made up; it is really not an estimate —the amount that will be taken from the ratepayers, if they are able to pay, will have jumped from £15,000,000-odd to £19,400,000. In other words, in the space of two years there has been an increase of over £4,000,000 laid on the backs of the ratepayers and, as I have pointed out, in regard to roads, they will get less service for that extra money. In spite of that, I am sure we will have people going down the country, telling the people that they are getting more money for roads and getting roads done more quickly now than ever before.

That reminds me of the story that was told just at the same juncture in the history of the last Coalition when, after coming into office they reduced the grant in Donegal by £90,000, in 1949. Yet, in 1950, the same people came back and told the people of Donegal, in face of the figures that were in black and white, that what we had been told or had seen happening in 1949 was fiction, not fact. Unfortunately, the people who live in rural Ireland, have to traverse the roads in the backward areas. They know the facts. They know that the roads are not being done and will not be done under the present system. I say, straightforwardly, to the Minister for Local Government that he has let down the people whom he should uphold, the people who are paying motor taxation and for driving licences. He has not stood by them as his predecessor promised to do and did until he left office.

I know the pressure must have been very great indeed when the Minister for Local Government or his departmental officials or advisers agreed that the Road Fund should be raided to the extent of £500,000 in these days when costs are rising and roads are disimproving and when everyone who knows anything about the rural community and their way of life realises that we must try to find the money for roads in order to improve the position in regard to these people, as a first step.

There is no use in building good houses, putting water into them and laying on sewerage if, when all that is done, the people have not a way to go in and out. It is too true that many homes in rural Ireland to-day have not got anything resembling a road into them and, under the present system, there is no hope that in their lifetime they will have anything resembling a road.

We cannot reconcile the Minister's attitude and his giving away of £500,000 from this fund with his attitude when he first became a Minister, when it was his idea and his ideal that the roads should be improved and that the people living in backward areas should be provided with this very necessary service. He has not kept faith with those expressed ideals. In fact, he has allowed himself to be bludgeoned into giving away the money that rightfully belongs to the local authorities for the maintenance of roads.

In regard to housing, apart from the situation that exists in Dublin and to some degree in Cork, there is an unique situation in the rest of the country, not so much in regard to the loans that are very much in the news at the moment as with regard to grants that are non-existent. Since 31st March last, there have been no housing grants of any description available to anybody for the purpose of building a dwelling. What is more disturbing, there has been no comment from the Minister concerned or from any of his colleagues. No helpful hints have been thrown out that if the people go on with the job at the moment they will be in no worse position when the new legislation is introduced. The only thing that has been given to this House to understand is that some time during this session new legislation in regard to housing and housing grants will be introduced.

I would ask the Minister what the people are supposed to do in the meantime. What are the people who have been saving for the last four to 15 years in order to build a house this year to do? Are they supposed to go ahead with the house in anticipation of getting as good a grant as they would have got last year? Are they to go ahead on the assumption that if they build their house they will be entitled to a grant from the county council? On the other hand, are they to take the risk that, if they commence to build at the moment, they may get no grant or a reduced grant?

Are we to go out from this debate with as little knowledge in regard to housing grants as we had when we came in? The Minister—I am sure he is well aware of it—is not playing the game in regard to housing grants if he does not put his foot down with the Cabinet of which he is a member and get from them an immediate decision, to be relayed to the people, as to whether or not the grants will be increased, retained as they were, reduced or wiped out. The people are entitled to know and certainly those people who have commitments possibly already made are entitled to know and, in fairness and justice to them, must know the position. On the Minister's head will it rest if, in a few months' time, any of these people come to any loss.

There may be people who will decide the risk is too great, who, in the absence of any encouragement from the Government in regard to what grants they may get in the future, will not build this year and, maybe, not having started this summer and this year, some circumstances may occur or intervene which will mean that they may never build because they did not start this year. The responsibility for all that will rest on the shoulders of to-day's Minister for Local Government. I do not want to see it resting there because I believe the Minister is fully alive to the situation and that he has been strangled in regard to this matter by his colleagues in the Cabinet. As they whipped £500,000 from the Road Fund, so also are they throttling his efforts to keep going the building drive, which has been in evidence for some years past.

We know there are still many houses needed despite the fact that it may be said that in some areas the housing programme is nearing completion. While that may be true, it is also a fact that many people are still wretchedly housed. These grants were going some part of the way and the local authorities were going the rest of it. Now we have no grants whatever. We have not even an encouraging smile from the Minister to indicate that all will be well in the next few months when this housing legislation comes before us. I would ask the Minister to give us some indication, when closing this debate, and to give the people throughout the country an indication of what is to happen in regard to these grants. Many people are anxiously awaiting that information. Will the grants remain? Will the grants be increased, as they should be under existing increased costs? Will the grants be reduced or will they be wiped out? I would ask the Minister to tell us the answer to these questions and, in doing so, to remember that he is being only fair to the people throughout the country in need of houses and who are depending on these grants.

I said we have a rare and unique situation in regard to grants. The situation is just as rare and unique in regard to loans. While it is true that to-day the problem is the problem of Dublin to a very large extent and the problem of Cork to a lesser extent, there is no guarantee that that same problem will not be the problem of all of us in every local authority throughout the country in the near future. Apart altogether from the possibility of a position arising in which no money would be available for housing loans, we are facing the problem in every local authority at the moment that we must charge an increased interest on the loans we are making available now and will make available in the future.

That position has arisen under a Government—and a Department whose Minister belongs to the main Party in this Coalition Government—that promised cheaper money and cheaper housing. There is no money in Dublin for anything so far as housing is concerned. In Cork, they are trying to struggle through. In the country there are no grants available of any kind. Money on loan—and it is pretty difficult to get it—must be paid for at an increased rate of interest. That, in a nutshell, is the black future that faces us in regard to the housing drive of which people were boasting that it was almost finished without remembering that there are still people throughout the country who are very badly housed and who must be properly housed by someone in the near future.

Nothing whatever can excuse the present Government and the present Minister for dealing with housing in the manner in which they have dealt with it. The slick answers and explanations that have been given on different occasions over the past three or four months, both in relation to the loan arrangements in Dublin and in regard to the provision of grants and of cheap money for housing down the country, are not going to stick. Undoubtedly, they will get a Minister or a Cabinet or a Government out of a hole for a day, two days, a week or a month but, in the long run—and it will not be a very long run in this case—these tactics will not pay. The people are heartily sick of the manner in which they are being dealt with by this Coalition Government who increase the price of an item to-day and to-morrow try to convince the people that it did not go up in price at all, that they are imagining the increase and that they are suffering from some sort of delusion. These tactics will not pay and are getting is nowhere.

We are getting nowhere so far as housing and roads are concerned and we shall get nowhere over the whole field of local government so long as this Coalition Government persists in these tactics. The Minister for Local Government—whether it is the Government that is at fault or not—is the individual who must take the biggest rap of all when the time comes. I am asking that the Minister will go into this matter of housing grants. I am asking him to consider the inability of people down the country to pay the new increased rates of interest on loans for houses and to do something about it.

In addition, while it is somewhat out of my field of activity, I should like to submit to the Minister that this new arrangement in regard to Dublin City whereby loans will not be given to anybody with more than £10 per week is surely the death knell of private building in Dublin City. How many people will be eligible to get a loan who have not got £10 a week? Is it not a fact that, in the recent past, the attitude within the Department was that only people with £10 a week are loan-worthy? Now, the same Department come along and say that if a man in Dublin has over £10 a week he cannot and will not be entitled to get a loan. Although this is out of my territory altogether, I would ask the Minister if this is not the end of private building by way of loan. Is this the end of private building by way of loan in Dublin City? If it is, then far better would it be to get up here and say so rather than try to choke the cat with butter. That is about what this amounts to so far as I can see and so far as I have heard in this House to-day from those who know the situation.

I should like also to draw the Minister's attention to some of the things that we expected from him during the past year. We find the Minister, during the past few months, going up and down the country and stating that the main cause of the increases in rates in recent years was the Health Act which was steamrolled through this House by Fianna Fáil. These were the Minister's own words at a Fine Gael Convention in Waterford on 11th March, 1956. The Minister for Local Government blames the Health Act of Fianna Fáil for the increase in rates in recent years but his colleague, the Minister for Health, came along and proved clearly and beyond doubt that this was not so and that, in fact, the amount of increase on the rates due to the operation of the Health Act represented a very small part of the increases in recent years. Those two Ministers, not only from the same Government and the same Cabinet, but out of the same Party, made two contradictory statements about the same thing publicly within one week of each other. Both of them, I am quite sure, knew what they were talking about when they made these statements.

That is a typical example of Government by Coalition. Even within the Parties, you find this frequent trouble creeping in of two people talking about the same thing and saying exactly the opposite to different audiences within a few hours of each other.

Would the Deputy relate that to the Estimate for the Department of Local Government?

I am doing the best I can to show that the tactics I mentioned, adopted and practised by the present Minister for Local Government in saying one thing and doing another, are not unique in so far as the rest of the Cabinet is concerned. In so far as the increase in rates is concerned, the statement he made that the Health Act is responsible was flatly contradicted by his colleague, the Minister for Health. The two of them cannot be right, and I think it is about time somebody found out who was wrong.

There is the matter of grants and loans. We have also the situation in regard to the grants already allocated last year by the Department of Local Government. It is a situation which I believe at the moment has not accidentally happened. There is a slowing up in inspections throughout my county in relation to the payment of these grants. Has there, or has there not, been some minute passed down the line to the various people dealing with Government grants that the money is slack at the moment and that there should be no rush? Is there any wilful slowing up through the Department in order that money should not be asked for? Is that so or is it not?

Do the figures in respect of inspections and payments in the past three months bear out what I say or prove me wrong? I shall accept the figures if they prove that the grants have been going out as quickly as they did for the past 12 months. On the other hand, if it is found that the figures show that fewer grants are being paid out, then I ask the Minister to look into the matter. It has been put to me that this is so and from the few cases I know of, I am inclined to believe that there is a slowing up which may have been a wilful act done in order to conserve moneys already dwindling to a low level.

There is another matter which came before the Minister and his Department recently—a matter affecting Donegal. So far as the instance in question is concerned, it will have far reaching effects throughout the country in regard to the power of local authorities. Some few months ago—I think it was in the month of January —we found that under the powers granted by the last City and County Management Act, we, as a council in Donegal, could direct that the moneys already provided for rounding off corners on a particular road could be employed, if we thought fit, in going straight through in order to achieve the same purpose.

Such a position arose last January, when we as a county council—and a mixed council at that—by unanimous decision decided that, instead of doing the Moville-Culdaff road, as the engineers indicated it should be done, it should be done another way. The resolution, under Section 4 of the City and County Management Act, 1955, was sent forward to the Local Government Department. After some time, one of the councillors whose name was on the original motion was notified that it had been turned down. I was the main mover of the motion and was not notified at all.

Leaving that aside, the main point is that, under Section 4, we exercised our right as a local authority, and, on an unanimous decision, sent this resolution to the Minister in connection with the road in Moville. After six weeks or two months, we got a reply from the Minister that he was not prepared to sanction the work. We know from our investigations, from the estimates made out by engineers competent to do the job, outside of our own county staff, and who were employed by the local people of Moville, such was the interest they had in the job, that the way we wanted to do the job was feasible.

In spite of that, we find the Minister for Local Government throwing out our resolution and at the same time trampling under foot the City and County Management Act, 1955, which the Minister when introducing it in this House, described as an emancipating measure. Yet, when a total of 28 members send up a resolution their own Minister for Local Government throws it out. The first shot for emancipation had been fired under Section 4 and the Minister who brought in that section to emancipate the local authorities and give them powers which they did not have before was the first man to shoot it down. So much for our emancipation.

We are still being dictated to in the same way as we were before, except that we were under the illusion that we had some power under Section 4. We were assured by the Minister that we had the power. I well remember the Committee debate on that section. I pointed out all the flaws and holes in the section that rendered it such that it could not possibly give us the powers the Minister maintained it would. Now we know from sad experience and by the Minister's own action that what we then said from this side of the House was only too true and that Section 4 is not worth the paper it is written on.

Another matter to which I should like to draw the Minister's attention concerns his undying devotion to the cause of providing a piped water supply for the Gaeltacht of Donegal as expressed by him no later than 20th June, 1955, in Letterkenny, a few days before the local elections. He said he hoped that the Donegal Gaeltacht would soon be fully served with a piped water supply. To that, I would say "hear, hear." Actually, I was not far away from where the Minister spoke and I then said "hear, hear," but, unfortunately, the Minister's intentions were not carried out.

I am afraid the Minister himself could be blamed in at least one instance in so far as a piped water supply for a Gaeltacht area is concerned. Over a year ago, the Minister will recall if other members of the House do not, I had occasion to raise on the Adjournment a question in respect of a piped water supply for Fanad West in County Donegal. The Minister then made it appear that the reason the water supply scheme for Fanad West was being held up was because I obstructed it in the Donegal County Council. The Minister knows that was untrue.

The Deputy said the Minister knew what he said was untrue. That is charging the Minister in the House with telling a lie.

He did not use that word.

I withdraw that and will continue with the discussion. In so far as it is unparliamentary to refer to the Minister as a liar, I withdraw it wholly. I am sorry the Minister is not in the House for this item. I was blamed, and given wide publicity by the newspapers, for my alleged obstruction of this scheme. I was blamed by a Minister who was misusing his position to charge me with obstruction. I am working to-day and I have been working since then to get that scheme through. Who constitutes the greatest obstruction I am meeting in my efforts? No one other than the Minister for Local Government himself. When we in the Donegal County Council a few months ago found we were not being given, and apparently would not be given, the 68? per cent. State grant for a water supply scheme for Fanad West—part of a regional scheme for the Fanad peninsula—we sent up a resolution, which the council passed unanimously, pointing out that Fanad West was a Fíor-Ghaeltacht district of the Fanad peninsula.

The Minister told me in the House at that time that he could not do anything about it without amending legislation. I pointed out to him that he had drafted the schedule by Ministerial Order and that, if he could do that in one instance, he could do it in a second instance and that legislation was not required. He then used the tactics of saying that if it were not for me the scheme would have gone through. He has got hamstrung on this matter. He knows in his heart that this is a Fíor-Ghaeltacht area, entitled to this 68? per cent. grant. But what do we find now? We find that the Minister has now passed the buck to the non-existent Minister for the Gaeltacht.

The history of this matter goes back further. After this Government took office, we in Donegal got a circular, as did the councils of other counties, asking us to send in for approval a programme of water supply schemes and sewerage schemes for every Gaeltacht area we could find. The circular told us the schemes would be carried out under grants from the National Development Fund or from some other such fund. They could not even wait for us to draw up our programme. They sent us a second circular asking us to send in our schemes more quickly. They gave us eight months, up to March, 1955, in which to send them in. It is now the middle of 1956 and we still have not got 2d. in State grants for any of these schemes.

Fanad West, as a Fíor-Ghaeltacht area, is entitled to the 68? per cent. grant but the Minister has now passed the buck to a Minister who does not exist and who is not likely to exist. We are in the position of looking for money from a Department which does not exist and we cannot lay the responsibility on anyone for the reason that the Minister does not exist either. The scheme about which I have been talking is the responsibility of the Minister for Local Government and his passing of the buck in the manner in which I have described will not give water to the Fíor-Ghaeltacht area of Donegal, as the Minister so glibly promised to do on the eve of the local government election in Letterkenny on June 21st. There is no use in that type of bluff. That is not the way to give the promised services more quickly to the people in rural Ireland. In fact any services we do get from the present Government are given with very poor grace.

When the Minister took office we had the promise that red tape would be abolished. We were told it would be deported or transported or exported; we were to be rid of it. We are not rid of it; we are being strangled by it. The Minister is not carrying out the promises he made when he became Minister. He is not cutting out the red tape; he is not expediting the work of the local authorities. If he bent himself to it, the Minister could expedite those things. Whether it is that he has not the wish or is being prevented lest he spends too much money, the sum total is that after two years we find now that the promises made were just promises that have not been fulfilled and are not likely to be fulfilled. Now that the Minister has returned to the House I should like to mention again the Fanad West water supply scheme about which I have been talking.

I can assure the Deputy I was listening to everything he said.

I am glad the Minister was listening. Now that he is here I would ask him to see to it that the local authority, his Department and himself are not held up to ridicule for holding up this scheme on the pretext that it is not a Gaeltacht scheme. Fanad West is absolutely Fíor-Ghaeltacht. The Minister is not inclined to schedule it as such. He prefers to pass the matter on to somebody who is to come at some future date—some saviour who will appear in the near future to relieve him of the responsibility of throwing out this scheme. As I have said. Fanad West is Fíor-Ghaeltacht. The Department of Education know that from their inspectors, from school reports, from the teachers and from the receipt of moneys they pay out under the Gaeltacht scheme each year. Every proof possible is there and the proof is in a Department of State to which, I presume, the Minister for Local Government has access.

I would ask him to make himself familiar with this proof and to allow us to proceed with this scheme on the 68? per cent. grant. If he did that, and no more, for Donegal while he is Minister, he will be able to say when he no longer is Minister: "There is one Fíor-Ghaeltacht of Donegal that now has a piped water supply, thanks to my effort". I will make him a present of any efforts I have made.

A number of other items might be raised on this Estimate. I feel sure they have been referred to already. I have heard discussion about the removal of fences and the cutting of hedges that obstruct scenery or that obstruct the view at corners and make corners dangerous. Instead of asking local authorities to prosecute farmers for not cutting their hedges, the Minister might get his Department to start an all-out campaign to get good will and co-operation from the farmers residing along roadsides and from other roadside dwellers as well. If such co-operation and good will existed, there would be less bother and more work done than there is under the present system of bringing prosecutions to make farmers cut down hedges. As Deputy Lahiffe has already said, you can compel a man to cut the hedge, but, if he does not want to do it with any good grace, he can trim the face of the hedge level with the bank or wall and need not cut the top. That, so far as I understand it, is the position as the moment, and that is where goodwill and co-operation are missing, and where they could do a good job for us in the future. If there is any way in which the Department of Local Government and the Minister can get our farmers' goodwill in this matter much more work will be done than by bringing them to court and prosecuting.

Now that I have mentioned the roads and the question of clearing bends and making them less dangerous, might I add my voice to the very many raised here and there down through the years, and more so in recent years, in regard to the question of traffic congestion and the manner in which our roads have become dangerous? The Department is, through the local authorities, doing a fair part of their work in making roads more safe, but there is still a lot to be done in that direction, and I feel, as many others do, that it is not a matter that can be dealt with under existing laws or regulations, that some new amending legislation is required to bring things up to date and ensure that in future the people who must travel the roads, whether they like it or not, will be able to do so in some safety.

The Minister and his Department, in conjunction with the Department of Justice and the Garda authorities, would all be implicated in new legislation that would go to make the roads safer than they are to-day. Knowing what the Minister for Local Government can do in that direction, I ask that he use his good offices in trying to bring to a head any such legislation that may be required, because there is no question whatever that, despite the fact that we are trying to improve the road surfaces, cut the bends, reduce the inclines and all the rest, it is no exaggeration to say that for every 100 miles any person drives in a car or vehicle to-day, on the average he escapes with his life by mere chance at least once, on any of our main roads. That is not only my own experience, but the experience of a good many who have to travel the roads very frequently. They have two or three escapes, thanks to God and nothing else, on an average three or four times a week.

That is a condition that should not be allowed to continue. It need not continue, but, as this matter is something which I feel is not entirely appropriate to the Department of Local Government, I do not want to go into the details of some of the things that I feel are wrong with our present road regulations, or, should I say, lack of road regulations. I will just leave it at that by appealing to the Minister, as the Minister responsible for making our roads and keeping them, to use his good offices to ensure that those of us who have to travel these roads will live to tell the tale when the roads are improving in the years to come.

I should also like to ask the Minister to consider the position in regard to the ratepayers. It is true that in every county to-day our ratepayers are being asked to carry more than they are able to bear. That is true now, and it will become more of a burden on them as the months go by, because, while a few years ago the farmer's lot was such that, in the live stock end of his business, at any rate, there was an upwards surge in the market, a boom in the trade and as a result his rates did not fall so heavily on him, to-day and in the near future, the prospects are that this boom is no longer there and our farmers will be feeling then, as they have already started to feel, the draught, and will find it difficult this year to pay their rates.

I would ask from the Minister one thing which I have mentioned before, and it is this: if increases of any kind are to be placed on the ratepayers of any county, those increases should be left to the discretion of the respective county councils, and no negotiations should be carried out between the Minister and any organisation which will mean more expenditure from local rates, without first consulting the county councils. One of the things that we find weighs very heavily and comes very often at awkward times is the question of increasing wages and salaries, and creating new appointments. The new appointment matter has been dealt with, but what we find is this: an organisation representing either a profession or a union will approach the Minister to have their conditions or wages improved or something else. The net result is that at those negotiations the Minister, on the one hand, representing all the local authorities, makes a bargain that he is prepared to sanction so much of an increase or a change in the conditions or regulations. The next thing is that the local authorities are faced with a demand from the association, union or organisations concerned at the next meeting, for the increase the Minister said he was prepared to sanction, if we would give it. As soon as the Minister agrees to sanction up to a certain figure, we have been committed, because, whether it is recognised or not, the Minister is regarded by those organisations as a representative of all local authorities, and once the Minister, whether it be the Minister for Local Government or the Minister for Health, says to any organisation: "We are prepared to sanction an increase of £1 a week, or 15/-, or 10/- a week," then the county councils are really in duty bound to pay that.

That happens, and has been happening in the past. I am not blaming the present Minister any more than any other for that situation, but I ask, as I have asked his colleague in the Department of Health, that in future where money will fall on the rates or an increase will result from any negotiations that take place, he should consult first of all with the county councils, get their agreement, and if they are agreeable to the increase or to pay more through the rates, then it is quite all right for the Minister to go along and agree with anybody who comes to him. But without consulting the county councils in advance, it is a very wrong thing to do, and something that should not be done, and a practice that should be broken. The practice has been of long standing, but I believe it can be broken, and I ask the Minister to make a stand himself on this matter and see that it is broken.

There were a number of small items which I wanted to raise in this debate, but, in order to get across what I really think should be emphasised, I will conclude by pointing out that our position to-day under the present Government in relation to local government and local authorities generally is that we are giving the people in our respective counties less services while charging more. A great deal of the blame for that situation can be laid at the door of the present Government and, in particular at the door of the present Minister. He has given away a gift of £5,000,000, which should have gone to roads badly in need of repair, without consulting the people and in direct contravention of the promise made by his predecessor that all moneys in the Road Fund would go back to the roads. That promise has been violated. I do not know whether the Minister has been pushed into this, pulled into it, or walked into it voluntarily, but he will certainly be held responsible and the matter must be given full publicity because this making and breaking of promises is something which is becoming the hallmark of Coalition Government.

£500,000 not £5,000,000.

If I said £5,000,000 I read the figure incorrectly. But it is not a question as to whether it is £5,000,000 or £500,000 or just £5. There is a principle involved. The Minister's predecessor said no money would be taken from the Road Fund for any other purpose and all of it would go back to the road users who are paying taxation on their cars and licences. That principle has been violated. That promise has been broken. Irrespective of whether the amount is large or small, the principle has ceased to exist and that is the objectionable feature in this. The Minister is responsible and he must take the blame. I appeal to him in the coming 12 months to make up that £500,000 in some way.

I will conclude by repeating that our housing grants, housing loans and road moneys are not what they should be. It is up to the Minister to mend his hand even at this late stage and thereby help to give better housing and better roads to the people in rural Ireland. I appeal to him, too, to see that the people in the Fior-Ghaeltacht get a piped water supply. That is something he himself advocated but he has not been quite so vociferous in his advocacy since becoming a Minister.

I would like to call the attention of the Minister to some very unwelcome news received by many hundreds of Dublin citizens when they opened their morning paper, namely, that it had been recommended to our city manager to publish an advertisement informing applicants for loans under the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Acts that there was no more money available. The very small sum of approximately £15,000 still on hands will be exhausted very shortly and, as far as the Dublin Corporation is concerned, there will not be a penny available to advance to applicants.

I am sure this news did not make pleasant reading for the Minister, but it was particularly unpleasant reading for the hundreds of families still desirous of providing, and anxious to provide, their own homes within the city area. It is true that proposals to which the Minister referred elsewhere will be considered next Monday by the Dublin Corporation. Whether these proposals are good or bad, one thing is certain: some considerable time will elapse before any change in the existing arrangement will ensure that applicants will once more receive moneys for the purpose of building their own homes.

The general change contemplated is one that should be examined very carefully because it conflicts with the principle of the Acts and with the purposes for which these Acts were framed. These Acts were introduced in order to permit persons with a certain income to provide houses for themselves in the belief that thereby the responsibilities of the Central Government to assist local authorities in providing houses would be substantially eased. One glance at the figures will demonstrate quite clearly that these Acts have been availed of to a considerable extent in recent years. In the period 1948-1949 to 1952-1953 advances totalling something over £2,000,000 were made. In 1953-1954 advances totalling £2,200,000 were made. In the year 1954-1955, the advances totalled £1,700,000 and in 1955-1956, £1,790,000 The total came came to nearly £8,000,000 over the years and that £8,000,000 was handled by the Dublin Corporation, whose only function in the matter was to administer the advancing of these moneys. In the years 1954, 1955 and 1956 the average monthly advance was round about £140,000 to £150,000. In February of this year £156,000 was advanced. The question now before us and before the Minister is: how much will be advanced in February, 1957?

We must bear in mind a number of factors. One of those is that the rates of interest under the Small Dwellings Acts, whether operated by county councils or by corporations, have always been below the interest rates charged by building societies. Even the present rate of 5¾ per cent. varies from 1¼ to 1¾ per cent. less than that charged by building societies. Is it conceivable that the operations of the Act can be continued by a complete change of the system?

Members of this House will be aware that under the Small Dwellings Acts at present there are a number of qualifications. One of those, which applies to those who do not qualify for a house under the Housing of the Working Classes Acts, is that, if their income is in excess of £520 a year, they will not get the supplementary grant in full. I wonder how many applicants to a building society or insurance society, whose annual income is less than £520 a year, would be given an advance to build or buy their own homes? I think it would not be too many. But whether they be many or few, the operations of the proposed alternative would take time. Therefore, I would like to appeal to the Minister to consider the position of those who are anxious to build their own homes but are not yet in a position to raise the money through their own resources, and, as far as he can, at least to let applicants for such loans receive support from the Local Loans Fund or make moneys available to the corporation from that fund in order that operations may continue while the position is being examined.

There was a somewhat more serious position referred to in this morning's paper also, and that was a recommendation from one of the Dublin Corporation sub-committees that the city manager should not issue contracts for building houses in the Coolock-Raheny area—sanction for which had already been received from the Minister and his Department—until further discussions had taken place in the city council. It immediately becomes apparent that, if there is any delay in issuing contracts or withholding sanction, the work of providing houses in Dublin will receive a very serious setback. While I am dealing with this matter might I mention that I understand the housing department is waiting since February of this year for sanction to proceed with development at East Finglas—development work which is absolutely essential if any building is to take place on the outskirts of Dublin during the next two years.

Our difficulties in the corporation are difficulties that have arisen mainly or solely through lank of finance. With the exception of the delay in sanctioning the development work at East Finglas, I think it only fair to say that in the last year or so there has been no undue delay in approving plans submitted. But it is little use to receive official sanction to carry out the essential work of building houses for our people if the situation has reached the point where a local authority indicates that it seeks a specific undertaking from the Minister that finance will be forthcoming before it issues out a contract. I regret to say that this is the position that has developed in Dublin Corporation.

It is a development of only very recent times. It arises mainly, I think, from the difficulties the corporation were faced with in the autumn of last year, when, having received sanction to borrow by way of overdraft from the Bank of Ireland up to the sum of £6,000,000, the Bank of Ireland refused point-blank to make that sum available by way of overdraft and subsequently indicated that it would be prepared only to provide overdraft accommodation for housing and capital purposes up to £3,800,000, subject to the corporation indicating what its future proposals were in connection with the raising of capital moneys. Within a few months of that decision the corporation's bankers took a much bigger step and in recent weeks refused an overdraft of any amount for housing or capital purposes.

The corporation is faced with this difficulty and it is a difficulty that I am afraid cannot be overcome by the corporation itself because at no stage since any real effort was made to provide for houses under the Housing of the Working Classes Act has the corporation been able or has it been expected to raise this money from its own resources. Other Deputies may be critical of the approach of the Dublin Deputies to these problems, but Deputies from the rural areas, as well as facing a somewhat smaller problem as regards housing, have always had a fairly clear issue. They either got the money through the Local Loans Fund or they did not get it and, excepting our sister City of Cork, any local authority, whether a corporate body or a county council that desired to provide houses, not only got the sanction of the Minister for Local Government, but had the money provided from the Local Loans Fund.

For some reason or another it was held many years ago that the corporation should try to raise their own finance but on every occasion the loans, whether by public subscription or, as in one case, a private loan, were under the absolute guarantee of the Government for the time being and the banks, and on no single occasion has the Government said that it is the corporation's duty, not only to go through the motions of raising the loan but to find the loan from its own resources.

Housing in this country has never been a problem of a single local authority, nor has the decision to provide houses for our people been the decision of a single local authority. The efforts made over the years were always under the direction, control and advice of the Minister for Local Government. In 1948 the then Minister for Local Government set out to speed up the provision of housing. The assurance, given by him at that time, was that from whatever other cause, housing would not be slowed down through lack of finance. That is an assurance which has been echoed from many sides of this House and it was in furtherance of that assurance and under the drive and guidance of the Department that local authorities throughout the country have carried out intensive campaigns to provide decent homes.

There are two areas which still have a serious problem. I do not know how serious the problem is in Cork but I do know that in Dublin we still face the necessity of providing something like 15,000 dwellings and we face immediately and in the next few years the very serious and urgent problem of completing the clearance and rebuilding of the central city areas. Some 12,000 to 15,000 dwellings have been completed since 1948. Many of the larger families have been housed, and I have no doubt Deputies in this House will be aware that day after day families residing on the outskirts of the city are seeking to be transferred nearer into the city where the fathers, sons and daughters can get to their work more easily.

The city does show the effects of the intensive drive during the last few years and the programme over the next year or so contemplates the building of flats in very many areas. But can we build flats in Dublin without money? The corporation on the occasion it floated its last loan realised only the usual one-third of what is required out of that loan, but that £6,000,000 was sufficient only to cover their housing requirements to approximately 31st March, 1956, and we are well past that period now. This, of course, is not a problem basically for Dublin at all. Census after census of the last 30 years has shown a steady increase in the population of Dublin.

Not all a natural increase.

And as Deputy Briscoe remarks, not all a natural increase. You have only to walk through any housing area and Deputies from various parts of this House representing Cork or Mayo, Sligo or Donegal, will hear the familiar accents of people who a few years ago were residing in their own beautiful counties. Housing throughout the country and, in particular, in the City of Dublin, during the past five years, has provided useful employment, constructive employment, and not only directly for those men engaged on the development of the sites, or in the construction of the houses, but also for many thousands of men engaged in the manufacture or processing of the materials that go to make the houses and to make the furniture and fittings in them. Not all of these live, or are employed, in Dublin.

In April of this year, some 2,000 men were employed on Dublin Corporation schemes and possibly another couple of thousand were employed in carrying out the very many schemes operating only because of the existence of the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Acts. If the position which we have reached to-day is allowed to continue, we will face a very serious crisis in Dublin, because not only will the housing programme be brought almost to a full stop within a matter of weeks, but the employment of the men on the schemes will also disappear, and we will then be faced with another census report showing the bricklayers and plasterers, carpenters and plumbers and plumbers' labourers out of work in Dublin and seeking work across the water. But their families will remain here as these men have no means of taking them with them.

We—and now I am speaking for Dublin Corporation—in Dublin Corporation have one ambition and that is to play our full part in ensuring that our citizens are housed in decent houses or decent flats. We want to play our full part in trying to ensure that employment in the building trade in Dublin is kept at the highest level possible. Too often in this House and elsewhere, discussions and disputes and differences between Dublin Corporation and the Department or the Minister for Local Government have been the subject of unnecessary and undesirable publicity. Discussions both here and elsewhere have contributed not a little, in my opinion, to the position in which the corporation finds itself to-day. It has been said time after time by various interests and in various places that Dublin Corporation is not a creditworthy body or a body which it would be safe to support in its public loan issues, and it is nearly always forgotten that the corporation carries out its activities as a result of the initiative, and in the name of, the national Government, because, without sanction from the Minister for Local Government, the corporation, or any local authority, cannot build a single house, and when the sanction is received in the case of a local authority down the country, unless the money is provided by the Minister, the scheme cannot go on.

We are reaching the position in Dublin in which, unless the urgency of the problem facing us is realised, housing activities will slow down very rapidly. I would not attempt to suggest where the necessary finance should be found, but I would impress on the Minister the necessity of ensuring that it is forthcoming and there should be an assurance that it will be forthcoming very rapidly. At the present moment, proposals are in hands, either in the Department, or in the hands of the technical officers of the corporation, for the construction of flats in various sections of the City of Dublin, but these proposals must prove to be stillborn, unless the financial position is examined and dealt with as rapidly as possible.

During the month of January of this year, it was estimated that our housing commitments, those already entered into, totalled a sum of £3,490,000 and that, in order to keep the continuity in the housing drive, it would be necessary to enter into further commitments totalling approximately £4,000,000 during this year in respect of housing schemes scheduled for the years 1956 and 1957. At the present moment, the corporation has money neither for housing under the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Acts, nor for its own housing.

During the course of the debate on this Estimate last week, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Government, Deputy O'Donovan, referred to one of the corporation's difficulties, the fact that £160,000 odd would be necessary in order that applicants who did not qualify for grants out of the £1,000,000 made available by the Minister for Local Government might get money to complete contracts entered into by them with builders. The Parliamentary Secretary suggested that it would be very easy to find £168,000 in the corporation's total estimates of approximately £8,000,000.

He would find no difficulty.

I am sure that if the Parliamentary Secretary were here, he would now agree that the suggestion was not a serious one, because the estimates for Dublin Corporation, like the estimates for other local bodies, have to go before the estimates committee and each item of proposed expenditure is set down under the appropriate heading—housing, engineering, health services, and so on, and it is the common experience that most of the items receive very careful scrutiny. The suggestion that, even in a Budget of £8,000,000, one could get £160,000 for which the manager had no authority, is a suggestion that cannot be taken seriously.

Of course, the money could be obtained if the local authority in question were prepared to bring in a supplementary estimate, but as the Dublin Corporation act only as the messenger of the Department of Local Government in connection with housing under the Small Dwellings Acts, it would be ridiculous to suggest that they would put a special sum on the rates purely for that purpose.

There is one matter I should like to mention again. It is the fact that the Department of Local Government has had proposals for site development work in the Finglas area since February of this year. The Finglas area is the only area left in the city where houses can be built. Even if finance is made available to-morrow, unless early sanction is granted to the proposals that are now with the Department, housing will come almost to a complete stop next year. There are proposals to build flats in the centre of the city. All of us who have some knowledge of the situation are in favour of building flats in the clearance areas. We know, however, that it is one thing to propose to build a block of flats and it is another thing to get them constructed. In the case of one development, we have been waiting for seven years, due to delays, acquisition costs, legal actions, etc.

Might I, in conclusion, again assure the Minister that we in the corporation are actuated only by a desire to cooperate in the construction of houses for our people? We have co-operated with every Government that ever existed in this country. It is a peculiar thing that, generally speaking, while many differences exist between members on all sides of this House, even those who are members of local authorities, in the Dublin Corporation, we have always been at one in our desire to house our people. Might I impress upon the Minister the urgency of the problem facing him and facing us? If money is not made available under the Small Dwellings Act, serious unemployment will take place in the City of Dublin and will take place rapidly.

Be careful, Lord Mayor, that you are not accused of sabotage now.

Deputy Briscoe and I frequently differ and I might say that one matter on which we differ is that I, as a Deputy and as a member of the Dublin Corporation, would never hold back a contract. I would issue that contract. I would issue it immediately because I believe it is the responsibility and has been the responsibility of the Central Government to see that the terms of the contract are carried out. Issuing that contract, I would ensure that the responsibility could not be avoided.

There are some 15,000 dwellings still required in the City of Dublin and at the rate of building which has obtained for some years, between 1,500 and 2,000 per annum, seven years is a conservative estimate of the time needed to complete them. Of course, if we were able to arrive at the peak output of 2,500 per annum, we could complete them much more speedily. On present output, and realising the many difficulties facing all concerned, I think seven years would be a conservative estimate of the period of time. However, that seven years is conservative only if there is no pause and if, at no time during that period, building comes to a standstill.

I fear the immediate future. Therefore, I make this appeal on behalf not just of the corporation but of the citizens of Dublin, many of whom have been waiting years for a decent home, that the Minister will take every possible step to ensure that housing will not be held up for lack of finance. His predecessor of 1948 gave this House and this city and this country that assurance and, up to the present time, that assurance has been honourably observed. I feel that, in this year of 1956, it should not be departed from one iota.

Major de Valera

This is just another aspect of what can happen when things are not properly planned and when there has not been a proper organisation of the nation's business. It is simply another consequence of a Coalition which was a muddle in its inception and has now reduced the affairs of the country to its own level.

The Lord Mayor of Dublin, Deputy D. Larkin, has spoken in regard to Dublin's problems. Mark you, he was talking only about Dublin's problems. He was restrained and, in his character not only as a Deputy of this House but also as Lord Mayor, it was right that he was restrained. The facts which he has disclosed—and he dealt only with the housing aspect of the problem in any detail—are serious enough for a Legislature to take serious notice of and particularly for a Government to do something about.

This is a problem for the capital city of the country—I think I could summarise what has been said rather shortly as follows. Owing to the ineptitude with which our national affairs have been handled and the lack of coordination and proper guidance from the Government in the past two years in the handling of the country's affairs, here is what Dublin City is facing.

The corporation is being informed that there will be no money available to them on overdraft for capital expenditure. In other words, the situation is being brought about—whatever be the cause, and perhaps some of the things Deputy Larkin mentioned in connection with credit have a bearing on it—that the corporation finds itself in the position that it is not able to call on what I might call normal or ordinary borrowing procedure. As a consequence, there has been no money in the corporation exchequer for loans under the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Acts—and I need not digress on the details of that: they have already been sufficiently published. In itself, that situation is a crisis, or amounts to a crisis.

In that situation, the Government can do no better than say that it will give support to the expenditure of £3,000,000, which is nothing much more than underwriting a commitment of £3,000,000. The present position is that that £3,000,000 is already practically completely earmarked. Further, unless the Government is able to give the corporation, on foot of its promise, that money at a particular rate—I am told that if that money is not forthcoming at a certain monthly rate— then even what is in train at the present moment is in jeopardy, let alone providing for the things that should be provided for.

I am not a member of the corporation but I am a Deputy for Dublin City and perhaps the fact that I am not a member of the corporation enables me to reinforce what has been said by those members of the corporation who are Deputies. I have tried to get certain information from other quarters. As I understand it, unless the money is made available at a certain monthly rate, it will not be possible to maintain the present schemes in progress. Therefore, it would appear to me that there is something more than the present provisions needed and that whatever provision is made is already committed and that there is even a problem about the rate of payment.

I believe the corporation has, in its own internal finances, been forced to use moneys temporarily—whatever way these things are balanced out—in respect of commitments which can be only temporary and that if they have to meet certain existing commitments in regard to housing they are going to go short on other employment content work. There you have it. You have the extraordinary position where, again typical of the ineptitude of the Government in office to-day, one Minister will gaily sanction something to be done but the Government, having sanctioned it, will not provide the money. I understand that that is not a problem confined to Dublin.

Deputy Larkin commented on the improvement in the speed with which sanctions are coming forward. He said they were able to get sanction. There is a certain touch of irony about that statement. They get the sanction, but no money. Where is the money to come from to pay for the scheme? Strictly speaking, I think a local body could in that situation—as I think Deputy Larking suggested— actually go to the contract stage, but there would be no money to pay for the contract if the local body were to place the contract. What would the situation then be? Supposing things deteriorated to such a position that action of that sort should be contemplated, as apparently was suggested here by Deputy Larkin. To my mind, it would destroy the last vestige of confidence in our public institutions if such a thing were to be attempted. Central Government cannot and should not attempt to evade its responsibilities by passing these burdens on to local authorities in this matter and, so to speak, passing the buck. You have a scheme and you give the sanction, but there is no money. You leave it to the local authority to stew in that juice. That is, so far as I can see, very largely what the Government is doing in this situation.

Let us consider the details of the problem a little more closely. I want to put a few things on record, just for the purpose of referring to them later. I shall take one area of the city—an area in the north central portion of the city. There are schemes proposed as follows: In North King Street-Coleraine Street, proposals for 50 flats; Lower Dominick Street, 114; Upper Dominick Street, 130; Lower Dorset Street, 93; Hardwicke Street, 201; at present in the course of construction; Grenville Street, 58; Upper Wellington Street, 35; and Dorset Street-Frederick Street, 48. That is a substantial housing programme in a restricted and narrow enough area. Some of that work is actually under way, as is the case in the Hardwicke Street area. Some of the work is proposed and, in regard to the bulk of it, the sites have been cleared. The area is derelict. Part of Dominick Street has been cleared and acquired ready for a scheme. I understand that a scheme has been prepared and is practically at the stage to go before the Minister, and the same might be said about other areas.

What is the future of that? There are serious consequences for the city arising from this situation under three separate heads. First of all, and in general principle, there is the whole housing programme, as Deputy Larkin mentioned. Twenty-five years ago, there was an acute slum problem in Dublin and there was an acute housing problem, and almost a century's work to be caught up with. The Government of that time planned and put under way a scheme which has done a lot and moved a great distance towards supplying the housing needs of the city. That scheme is not complete and cannot be until these present schemes have been completed. The first point is that there is in question and in jeopardy there a major part of our programme for national reconstruction, with particular reference to the capital city.

Let us come to the specific details. In order to carry out that programme, it was necessary to make the arrangements for acquisition and clearing— the arrangements upon which building was to take place. That clearing was not without its dislocations and inconveniences for certain people. We all know how anxious people are to get back to the centre of the city, if they can. We should not forget the problem of the shopkeepers and traders in these areas who have lost their customers and the urgent need in the interests of the prosperity of these areas to restore the population there.

Therefore, when we have got to the stage of clearance and then stop and delay, we raise a number of other problems which in themselves are serious and need adjustment. I have referred to one—the question of the traders and shopkeepers—but there is the whole question of the development of the area and the development of the city as a unit involved in the matter as a whole. That is one aspect.

The second aspect is the one with which the Lord Mayor dealt, the provision of housing where housing is needed. There are still in parts of Dublin dwellings which are not of the standard we require in modern times for our people. There is still in certain areas a certain amount of overcrowding.

The third point is the employment content. The provision of employment is also involved. Again, on such figures as are available to me, it would appear that there was a labour force altogether available of somewhere round about the 15,000 mark employed directly or indirectly in connection with housing. The corporation would have had about 2,500 direct. The Small Dwellings Act, another 5,000, and then you had other works in regard to the balance. Let us accept as a very approximate figure that there is reason to believe that something approximating to one-third of that figure have emigrated or lost their employment in that activity since this crisis came upon us in regard to housing in Dublin.

That is also something which cannot be ignored. It was only last Sunday I was told in the Hardwicke Street area, where building is actually in progress, that there appeared to be a slowing down in the tempo of the development there and that, in fact, there appeared to be fewer men employed on the site. I think I have said enough to indicate, following on the other speakers, that there is a problem here which is serious enough to demand immediate action on the part of the Government. That this situation has developed and has been allowed to develop is something which must be charged against this Government, and against this Minister, as part of the Government.

For too long we had the optimistic statements, the hope that something would turn up. We had the situation in this regard as in other regards— something like what we had in regard to the tea: hoping for the best and putting it on the long finger. Then, when the thing happened, it was worse than it need have been.

This is being talked about and argued. It has been the subject of serious concern to Dublin Corporation for a number of months past. Belatedly the Government announced the underwriting, as you might call it, of £3,000,000 for the corporation. That, as I have said, has not solved the problem, and the position now is that the Minister can no longer afford to delay an announcement on the matter.

The Minister must say whether building is to continue and, accordingly, whether people are to be kept in employment. If progress is not to be halted the finances must be found. If the finances are not found then it is imperative that the situation be clarified definitely. Meanwhile, you have the uncertainty, the unemployment, the emigration that is resulting from this situation. Apart from anything else there is the difficulty that has been caused to the local administrators in Dublin in the handling of affairs in the city. You have a situation in which it will be extremely difficult for local authorities to carry on at all in this atmosphere of uncertainty and buck passing that has emanated from the Government.

I should like to finish on this note: This position is the logical culmination of the policy that started in 1948 with the first Coalition Government. At that time many of us warned, and were laughed at, against the device the Government were adopting to avoid putting loads on the central Government by passing them on to local authorities. There was obviously a limit to what could be done in that direction. That limit has now been exceeded. The Fine Gael Party is mainly responsible for it. What is this Fine Gael Minister in this Government doing about it? That is the question that the people of Dublin— not only the corporators but the people who are paying higher rates than ever before—are asking. They see greater unemployment, they see the provisions of the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Acts are being stopped and where the people already committed to these things are finding it hard to meet their commitments because of unemployment caused by such situations as the closing down recently of the motor assembly factory. There is also the slowing down in the building trade. I do not think the Minister can let the occasion pass without clarifying the position.

Mr. Lemass

Before the Minister concludes, I want to make some brief remarks concerning one of his responsibilities—the administration of the Road Traffic Act. The Minister need not be perturbed; I think he will get his Estimate this evening. Some weeks ago, there was a private member's motion dealing with road traffic tables which stated:

"That Dáil Éireann is of opinion that, in view of the increasing congestion of traffic on the roads and of the large number of fatal and serious accidents, the Government should without delay bring before the Dáil comprehensive proposals for dealing with the problem."

That motion was tabled following a discussion in our Party on the position regarding road traffic, and when the announcement was made that the Estimate for the Department of Local Government was to be discussed, a request was made to the Minister, through the Whips, that the motion should be taken in conjunction with the Estimate. The Minister could not see his way to do that, and I can understand his reluctance in view of the variety of matters that arise on the Estimate.

It is the view of my Party that the matter should not be allowed to rest until the motion would be taken in the normal course of Dáil business. That might not be for a year hence and the debate on the Estimate for Local Government gives us the only opportunity we have of expressing our concern about the position and our view as to the urgency of the need to do something about it. The existing Road Traffic Act was passed in 1933 and, since then, there has been an enormous increase in the number of vehicles on the roads. The speeds of motor vehicles have also increased considerably since then.

The problem is growing year after year and it is clear it cannot be allowed to go any longer, without receiving the very serious attention of the Government of the day. In other matters Deputies opposite occasionally ask, when proposals are made from this side of the House, why action in the matters mentioned was not taken by the previous Government. That argument does not arise here. It is a growing problem. It is difficult to say at what stage this road traffic problem reached the dimensions which called for early action. It is one that is growing continuously and one that will grow still further as time goes on.

This motion, which was tabled at the instance of the Fianna Fáil Party, refers to comprehensive proposals. We realise that, in dealing with this matter of road traffic problems, new legislation alone is not sufficient. The problems associated with road traffic arise under the head of legislation, under the head of administraiton, under the head of enforcement of regulations and, to some extent, under the head of roads policy. The Minister is not concerned with many of these matters, but he is with some of them. We must face the fact that the number of motor vehicles on our roads has increased for many years past at the rate of 10 per cent. per year. According to the Budget Estimate, the Minister for Finance is assuming an even greater rate of increase this year, because he has based his expectation of revenue for the Road Fund on the assumption of an increase of up to 15 per cent.

Whether that expectation will be realised in face of the circumstances that have since developed is another question, but it is obvious the problem will not diminish. Apart altogether from the continuing and substantial increase in the number of motor vehicles, a very special problem has been raised by the much more spectacular increase in the number of motor cycles. Their number is increasing by 100 per cent. per year and that creates a special problem of its own. The Minister has announced his intention to introduce proposals for legislation to amend the Road Traffic Act of 1933. However, I do not know how serious that intention is. There is no sign of the action on the part of the Government which would normally be expected, if that intention were serious, to arouse public interest in this problem and to provoke public debate on the provisions which should be embodied in the new Bill.

No doubt the public are very much concerned about the position. They note the steady increase in road accidents; the number of fatal and nonfatal accidents is increasing in almost direct proportion to the increases in the number of vehicles. The public are aware of the increasing congestion of traffic in city streets, but they have not yet begun to debate in a public way among themselves the course of action which should be taken in regard to these matters or the type of legislation most suitable. Public debate in advance of the introduction of legislation can only be helpful to the Minister. It is probably true to say, as has been said, that the enforcement of regulations is even more important than the changing or extension of the regulations.

I said earlier to-day in another debate that the Government is always moved by political motives. Perhaps in this matter they do not see political advantage. I want to say that if they think that they are very much mistaken. I believe there is a tremendous amount of public goodwill to be secured by any Government that goes out rigorously to enforce the traffic regulations and to secure the added safety and greater degree of order in the streets which rigorous enforcement of the regulations would secure. We know that although the number of motor vehicles on the road has increased at this 10 per cent. per annum rate the number of Gardaí has not increased at all, and the number of Gardaí on traffic duties is not much larger to-day than it was many years ago when the number of motor vehicles and the dimensions of the traffic problems were a great deal less.

The Minister for Local Government is not responsible for the activities of the Gardaí, and perhaps something can be said on that aspect of the problem in the debate for the Department of Justice, but he is in this position, that under the Road Traffic Act he makes a number of regulations and is, therefore, indirectly responsible for ensuring that those regulations are, in fact, enforced. There is no sense in making them if they are not going to be enforced.

The Minister authorises local authorities to erect traffic lights and other road traffic signs, and these things are very valuable. They are observed and obeyed by the great majority of road users in their own interests. But it would not be an exaggeration to say that in the City of Dublin those traffic lights and signs are ignored and the regulations relatting to them disobeyed a thousand times an hour without the offenders being detected or punished, and that is because of inadequate Garda supervision. Indeed, there is reason to suspect that in recent times there has been a falling off in the effort to enforce the Road Traffic Acts. There is a very striking contrast between the statistics of the number of motor vehicles on the road, and the number of prosecutions for road traffic offences. Although the number of vehicles has increased, and is increasing, at the rate of 10 per cent. per year, and the number of fatal and nonfatal accidents is increasing at the same rate, the number of prosecutions for road traffic offences is falling. Figures have only been published up to 1954. In 1952, there were 78,800 prosecutions for offences under the Road Traffic Act. In 1953 there were 75,020, and in 1954 there were only 58,653. That is to say that although between 1952 and 1954 there was a 10 per cent. increase in the congestion of the traffic on the roads and the number of vehicles in use, and in the number of accidents, the number of prosecutions, cases taken to court, for offences against the regulations fell by 25 per cent.

It may be of assistance to the Minister in this matter to get from the representative of the Party in Opposition an indication of the things we think should be done in order to bring about improvement in the situation. First of all, there is the question of driving tests. We have come to the conclusion that it is wrong to allow a situation to continue in which any person can get a licence to take a motor vehicle on the road without being subjected to some test—first of all a test of his competency to control the vehicle, and secondly, a test of his knowledge of the Road Traffic Regulations. That matter of the institution of a driving test was, of course, considered 25 years ago when the present legislation was being considered, and there was a great deal of argument pro and con. Ultimately the decision was against it. But the change in circumstances since, the considerable expansion in the number of vehicles on the road and the considerable increase in the speeds and sizes of some vehicles, do, in our view, justify the reopening of the issue.

I think it is true to say that the operation of the system of driving tests by other countries has tended to minimise traffic accidents and to secure better conduct on the road. It is recognised that there are, of course, a very large number of motor drivers, some of them perhaps not very competent, who have licences already, and it would probably be impracticable from an administrative point of view to apply a driving test to everybody seeking a renewal of a licence. A driving test should, however, in our view be made a condition of the issue of a new licence, and the Gardaí should, we think, have a right to require any licensed driver, whose competence they have reason to suspect, to submit himself to a test.

In that connection, perhaps not quite relevant but nevertheless associated with the problem, there is the question of the duration of driving licences. At the present time a licence is issued annually, and every driver must renew his licence annually. We note that in Britain under recent legislation it is possible to get a licence for three years. I think there is something to be said for permitting that to happen here, for giving to approved persons, qualified to receive a licence, a licence for a three year period. It probably would reduce considerably the administrative expenses involved in the issue of licences.

The next suggestion we have to make concerns the publication in some way, so that they will be brought to the notice of all licensed drivers, of the road traffic regulations. The Minister has made, under the Road Traffic Act of 1933, a series of regulations governing the conduct of people and vehicles on the roads. I think it is probably true to say that not one driver in a hundred has ever seen those regulations in print, and a very high percentage of them appear not to know that there are regulations there at all. We think that there should be published a suitable handbook, equivalent to the Highway Code in Britain, which would be brought to the attention of all persons receiving driving licences, and that the test for receiving a licence should include, not merely competence in the control of a vehicle but knowledge of the highway code. A handbook of that kind, a code of rules governing conduct on the road, could not be given the exact force of a statute, but it could be provided in the legislation that evidence of a breach of the rules prescribed would be regarded as prima facie evidence of dangerous driving or driving without due consideration to other road users.

That is particularly needed, I think, in the case of motor-cycle owners. One of the complications of our road traffic problems is the very rapid increase in the number of motor-cycles, the 100 per cent. per year extension in that aspect of the problem. It is true to say that the great majority of those who operate motor-cycles are younger people. It is a mode of conveyance that does not recommend itself to people after they have passed a certain period of life, and traditionally those who are younger are more inclined to take chances, to their own risk as well as to the risk of pedestrians and other road users. It is, I think, particularly necessary to bring to the notice of those people the rules that should govern their conduct on the roads.

There is also in the City of Dublin and most Irish cities a special problem relating to pedal cyclists. It is, I think, generally believed that the Gardaí have more or less abandoned the effort to impose order upon pedal cyclists particularly at the rush hours in the city. Mark you, the great majority of cyclists are very well behaved on the road and exercise extreme discretion and caution because they are the most likely sufferers in any traffic accident. Some 26 per cent. of the people who have been killed or injured on the roads in recent years have been pedal cyclists. It is also true to say that there is a minority who act without due consideration and it is, I think, to be emphasised that some 20 per cent. of the pedestrians who are killed or injured on the road are killed or injured by pedal cyclists and not in accidents involving motor cars at all.

There is need to consider the regulations that should govern the operation of pedal cyclists in the city and to consider also the machinery of enforcement which will prove effective in ensuring that inconsiderate or dangerous conduct will be checked. It is also desirable in our view to bring in some system of testing the mechanical efficiency of vehicles. It should be possible to provide for the recognition of garages throughout the country where suitable testing apparatus would be maintained and where the proprietors would be authorised to issue licences of mechanical efficiency. Every motor vehicle should after a period—what the period might be is a matter for consideration—be subjected to test of mechanical efficiency and the Gardaí should have power to require any vehicle they thought suspect to be submitted to a test of mechanical efficiency. They have that power at present so far as public service vehicles are concerned; but, in our view, the power should be taken also to cover vehicles of all kinds and particularly vehicles which are in constant use for commercial purposes.

One of the main problems which has been discussed in the Dáil on previous occasions and which is, indeed, often a matter of public debate is the problem of "drunk driving"; in that regard I think the Minister should give very serious consideration to the wording of the statute. The present statute makes it an offence for a person to be in control of a car when, through drink, he is in such a condition that he is incapable of exercising effective control over such vehicle while in motion. Now that word "incapable" has, as the Minister knows and as Deputies are aware, been frequently used as a means of escape when persons are charged with being drunk in charge of a car. It is desirable that we should seek to amend that phrase so as to make it an offence for a person to be in charge of a car when he has, through drink, put himself in the condition that he cannot exercise due care in its operation. We think that the existing phraseology is too tight and it does not deal with all the problems associated with the control of motor vehicles operated by drivers when under the influence of drink.

In the legislation of some countries it is provided that conviction for drunk driving involves automatic imprisonment. It is, I believe, contrary to legal principles here to provide for minimum penalties and there probably is good reason for that viewpoint. The existing law does provide for the automatic cancellation of driving licences on conviction for drunk driving. Probably it is not desirable to go further than that. But the Minister might consider whether it is not practicable to depart from the normal practice in this case and provide for automatic minimum penalties, including imprisonment, where conviction for drunkenness in charge of a car has been secured.

The next point I want to mention is that of speed limits. Again, the question of imposing maximum speed limits was debated very fully here when the Road Traffic. Act, 1933, was before the House. At that time there was a body of opinion which felt that the provisions of the existing law at the time, which provided for maximum speeds for motor vehicles, should be retained even if the prescribed speeds were amended. There was another body of opinion which held that speed in itself was not dangerous: it was speed in relation to all the surrounding circumstances, and the law was framed on the basis of that view and does not provide for maximum speeds for ordinary motor vehicles. There are maximum speeds, which are perhaps out of date, prescribed under the law for public service and other commercial vehicles; and a local authority can, through a process, secure the prescription of maximum speeds for certain roads or in certain districts.

In our view there should be maximum speeds prescribed for all types of motor traffic in built-up areas. Now the term "built-up areas" is used in Britain and it is not perhaps altogether the most suitable for our circumstances here because our traffic congestion is not yet as great as it is in Britain. But in the centre city streets and particularly in those which are not so wide maximum speeds are undoubtedly a contribution to safety and are likely to facilitate movement of traffic as well, even though they may not be prescribed for some other streets or roads which are also technically perhaps within a built-up area. Whether the speed limits are confined to built-up areas as a whole or whether different speeds are prescribed for different highways in the built-up areas is a matter upon which we have no fixed view. Our view is, however, that the time has come when it is desirable to prescribe maximum speeds for motor vehicles in centre city areas at least.

In many cities in Europe legislation has already been enacted prohibiting the sound of motor horns in towns at any time or after midnight. Deputies who have travelled abroad will, I think, agree with me that on the whole the prohibition of the sounding of motor horns has contributed to safety. The elimination of the driver who depended upon his horn rather than his brake has meant that greater caution is exercised but, apart altogether from the safety element, there is a feeling that the sounding of motor horns in the city area after midnight should be prohibited. There is another observation I might make in that regard.

There is power, I think, for the Minister to prescribe or make regulations controlling the noise of motor vehicles. I do not know what the scope of these regulations are or how they are enforced but I think it is certainly all wrong that a single individual on a motor bicycle can go roaring through the City of Dublin at 2 o'clock in the morning and wake up 250,000 people. There should either be a revision of the regulations, if they are not strict enough, or an enforcement of the regulations, if they are, in order to prevent undue disturbance of the public at night in that way.

Another suggestion we would put forward for consideration is that the registered owner of a motor vehicle should be legally responsible for the manner in which the vehicle is operated. It is a problem for the Gardaí when they are trying to enforce the regulations that they have to prove not merely that the regulations were broken but that the individual charged was responsible for the operation of the car at the time that the breach occurred. One will see a Garda on duty, controlling parking in the city, waiting beside a car until the person who drove it into the parking area in contravention of the parking regulations turns up, so that he can be identified by name. That need not be necessary. I think the law could be amended to provide that the Garda can note the offence merely by recording the registration number of the car, and the owner of the car should be made legally responsible for the way it is controlled, so that prosecution can follow merely by the Garda giving evidence that the car with that registration number was involved in the offence.

As regards road policy, there are a few suggestions which we have been debating. In Britain, in the less frequented streets they had installed what are known as zebra crossings— places where the pedestrian has the right to cross the road and where all traffic must stop to enable the pedestrian to cross the road. There may be need to consider the whole basis of our law in that regard. As I understand it, our existing law provides that the pedestrian has prior right on the roadways and can, in theory, cross the road when, where and how he likes. Many of them do not choose to exercise that right, because they are rather apprehensive of the consequences. Perhaps we might reconsider that problem, in relation to the busier streets on the one hand to ensure there is not unnecessary interruption of traffic as well as the safety of pedestrians and in the less busy streets of the city by giving the pedestrian the right which I mention, the right to stop the traffic to cross the road at specified places.

In continental cities, the practice has been established that the pedestrian is controlled by traffic lights. Here he is not. There the pedestrian has to obey the lights and I may say that I myself was once very nearly arrested for not doing so not so very long ago. As any Dublin citizen would, I exercised my right to step off when I thought fit and I very nearly found myself in the lock-up. In some places, they have special pedestrian crossing lights where the pedestrian is shown by the lights the time he can cross the road. Whether that is practicable or desirable in Dublin is another question. Consideration should be given to the basis of our law prescribing pedestrian rights on the road and to the giving of the facilities which are extended in Britain at zebra crossings to ensure that the pedestrian can cross in the prescribed places and that the traffic will stop. It is true in Britain that there was a number of casualties when these zebra crossings were introduced first but the courts imposed such severe penalties for a breach of that regulation that there is now very little risk in Britain when a pedestrian exercises his right in that way.

There is also probably need to revise the system of one-way streets and to increase considerably the number of one-way streets, particularly in the centre of Dublin, where many of the main and busiest streets are. I presume that the Minister and his Department are giving consideration to the problem of parking facilities. It is quite obvious we are reaching a stage in Dublin in which either the provision of some special parking facilities in the middle of the city will have to be considered, or, alternatively, people will have to be prohibited from parking their cars at all in many of the narrower city streets and the enforcement of that regulation taken in hand. I suppose that at the busy time of the day one would hardly see a "no waiting" sign in Dublin without a car parked under it. Progress through many streets is, therefore, considerably curtailed. That is a matter for the local authorities, but the Minister should consider whether the provisions of the Act require amendment so as to extend the powers of the local authorities in that regard.

As regards roads outside Dublin, I think it is true to say that the great majority of our main roads are quite good enough for the traffic on them at the present time, but I think we must assume that the traffic will continue to increase, and, in the planning of our road policy ahead, we must allow for that increase. In one respect, that is not true. For about ten miles outside Dublin, the traffic congestion on most of the main roads is such that they are now inadequate to enable that traffic to move freely and without undue risk. I gather there is a plan for double-carriage roadways on these main traffic routes outside Dublin and there was a statement made by the county manager of Kildare last week in that connection.

The need for these roads may have been a matter of some controversy some years ago, but I think few Deputies who have put the matter to the test will not agree that the continuing increase in road traffic is now making it a necessity to provide for dual carriage-way roads on all our main traffic arteries outside Dublin for a distance of ten or 15 miles. Beyond that, most of our main roads are quite good enough for the amount of traffic they have to carry at the moment. The only obligation resting on the Minister in that respect is to take into account that at the present rate of progress the number of cars will have multiplied by 50 per cent. in five years and at that stage some revision of our roads programme to meet the increase in traffic may be necessary.

These are the matters which, in the view of the Party in Opposition, the Government should consider when framing this legislation, and we want to urge that the legislation should not be delayed. As far as we are concerned, we are prepared to give the Government every facility in securing its enactment and to co-operate wholeheartedly with them in ensuring that the proposals they bring to the Dáil will be effective to their purpose and generally agreed as far as the Parties in this House are concerned.

First of all, I am sure the House will pardon me if I deal with the points raised by Deputy Lemass a moment ago. Let me say at the outset that I welcome his criticism and that I am in full agreement with everything he says. Deputy Giles raised the same point earlier in the debate. Any serious-minded person is concerned with the fatalities which are occurring on the roads of this country, and not only with that, but with the number of people who are being maimed for life in accidents on our roads. But no matter what regulations we make, no matter what bylaws are made, no matter what legislation is introduced and passed in this House, unless those bylaws are enforced and unless those regulations are enforced, the legislation they rest on is all for nought.

I am satisfied that the regulations at present in force, were they duly enforced and were they duly respected by every motorist, cyclist and pedestrian in this country, would seriously reduce the number of accidents which are occurring. As I said in moving the Vote, revised regulations on traffic signs, pursuant to the powers conferred by the Local Government Act, 1955, are being prepared. It is hoped that in a very short time we will have international road signs—road signs which will be common to all countries in Europe, Great Britain and Ireland —and we are at a very advanced stage at the moment with the preparation of these signs. We also hope, when the new regulations come into force, to issue a leaflet, as suggested by Deputy Lemass. I am publishing a road safety booklet setting out the various regulations which should be enforced and recognised by pedestrians, motorists and cyclists.

Deputy Lemass talked about a driving test. There is a lot to be said for and there is a lot to be said against it. For instance, a man may succeed in a driving test when he first applies for a licence at the age of 60. But one can imagine, as he grows older, his eyesight may deteriorate and he may deteriorate physically himself; and I think that a test given to him when his driver's licence was originally issued would not suffice to ensure he was a proper driver after, say, three or four years. We should consider whether or not there should be a test every three, four, five or six years. In Britain, they have a driving test. Every driver must pass this test prior to receiving his driver's licence, but we find that, proportionately speaking, we have a lesser number of accidents in this country in relation to the percentage of cars on the road than in Britain, where they have driving tests.

Remember also that in this country we have a driving test in certain cases, for instance, in the case of all drivers of small public service vehicles and of large public service vehicles, such as buses. They have these driving tests and I am sorry to say that, proportionately speaking, as many accidents occur to those drivers who have these driving tests as occur to the others who receive licences merely on filling in the application form. It is very difficult to say whether driving tests will reduce the number of road accidents.

Deputy Lemass also referred to the mechanical efficiency of motor cars. We also have in this country an examination of small public service vehicles and of large public service vehicles, but how often do we find that after an accident the brakes or some other part of such vehicles were found to be inefficient? If you have, say, an examination once a year on vehicles which subsequently do 60,000 or 65,000 miles a year, you can imagine the deterioration in the mechanism of the vehicle. The question then arises as to how often these vehicles should be examined, every 5,000 miles, every 10,000 miles or every six months. It is difficult to say, and I do not think having an efficiency test for mechanical vehicles would reduce the number of accidents.

With regard to speed limits, there again we are up against it. For instance, a Baby Ford travelling say at 20 miles per hour might be much more dangerous than a Dodge or a V8 travelling at 60 or 70 miles per hour. On the Continent, I understand, there are no speed limits and we all have our eyes opened when we arrive in Paris and see the speed at which the vehicles travel there; still in the City of Paris we have fewer accidents, proportionately speaking, than in the City of London or in the City of Dublin. It is a question of educating the driver, educating the pedestrian and the cyclist into seeing that they themselves will not commit breaches of these regulations, and inculcating into them a road sense.

Silent zones were also referred to by Deputy Lemass. Under the bylaws which are made by the Commissioner of the Garda with the concurrence of the Minister for Local Government, they have power to create silent zones. The Deputy also referred to the noise in the City of Dublin after 12 o'clock. He would want to reside in a country village where there is a dance-hall and where at night the driver is trying to collect his passengers after the dance, where there are 30 or 40 motor-cars with horns blowing at the one time and where a resident cannot get silence at night in his own home. The Garda, I must say, in cases where there is persistent horn blowing by these drivers do prosecute and very often these drivers are convicted by the district justice if it is considered that the blowing of the horn was unreasonable. There is a lot to be said for silent zones and perhaps their enforcement in certain areas might be considered in the making of new bylaws.

Deputy Lemass also referred to the registered owner being responsible for the operation of the car. I do not think he has given serious thought to this. It is hard for a Guard to stand beside a car or beside where a car is parking for an hour and be able to say who was the person who parked the car; maybe the person who takes it away is not the person who parked it. But if the registered owner was responsible, say in the case of an army driver, would the Minister for Defence be responsible for his reckless or careless driving or in the case of a State car would the Minister for Finance be responsible for the manner in which one of the drivers drove the car on the public highway? Again take the case of a limited company or take C.I.E. Would C.I.E. be responsible for the driving of their employees? If they were I am afraid the employees would be less careful than they are. I believe there is no greater deterrent to reckless driving than the fact that the person driving is amenable to the law for the manner in which he drives a vehicle.

The question was also raised by Deputy Lemass as to whether our main roads are adequate to carry our traffic. I wonder did we reduce the number of accidents in any way by straightening the roads and widening the corners? If we took the census of accidents on the road between Dublin and Naas, I wonder to what conclusion we would come? I am afraid we are making the roads a little more dangerous by making these speedways which we have been developing in the past. Particularly in night driving, as some Deputy has pointed out, unless you have a dual carriageway, a straight road is dangerous because one vehicle is inclined to blind the driver of the oncoming vehicle and there is a really serious danger from that point of view. There is something to be said for the introduction of the yellow light on all our public roadways but then our roadways may not be suitable to the type of lighting such as they have on the Continent or in parts of Britain.

However, I welcome the suggestions that were made by the Deputy. I think they are most constructive and they will receive the serious consideration both of my Department and, I am sure, the Department of Justice and the Commissioner of the Garda. I would also like to thank the various daily papers for the leading articles and the constructive suggestions which they have made in connection with this matter. I can assure you that I have given the whole question my personal thought and I have set out certain instructions in connection with it. I have requested the co-operation of the Department of Justice in the enforcement of these regulations and bylaws and we are doing our best to eliminate accidents on the public highway. At the same time, as I say, when we have these new regulations drafted and the booklet issued, we hope that not only will the Garda endeavour to enforce the regulations but that the District Court justices will ensure that, where penalties are imposed, they will be imposed in accordance with the seriousness of the offence. I think the present Minister for Justice should be congratulated on the stand he has taken in refusing to restore licences to convicted drunken drivers. He is breaking precedent in that respect but I think he deserves the thanks of this House and of the people of the country generally for the stand he has taken.

A considerable number of points have been raised during this debate. I shall try to deal with each Deputy in turn in relation to the various points he has raised, some of which are local and others of which are national. First of all, Deputy Bartley referred to the note regarding capital services at the beginning of the Book of Estimates and asked whether the amount shown under Capital Services should be added to the amount shown in the individual Estimates themselves. The answer is "no," and the note at the beginning of the Book of Estimates makes that clear. It says: "The total of capital services included in the Estimates for Supply Services is, as indicated on the title page, £11,602,470." Now there is also a cross index and a person can usually see where these items are included in the individual Estimates. I think it was the same Deputy who referred to the extent of the discussion on roads. Actually my Estimate contains no provision for roads at all. Local authorities defray about half the expenditure on roads of every description. There has been no mention of roads in my Estimate for the simple reason that any State contributions to the local authority for road improvement or otherwise comes out of the Road Fund and not out of the Estimate with which we are now dealing.

Deputy Lynch of Waterford raised the question of tourist road grants and inquired whether the counties to benefit are defined. They are defined. They are the Gaeltacht areas and the congested areas. I am glad to be able to inform the Deputy that Waterford gets a contribution from the Gaeltacht road fund in respect of that very fine Gaeltacht, Ring. The contribution, I admit, is small but unfortunately so also is the Gaeltacht.

Deputy MacCarthy and Deputy Esmonde complained that too much land was taken up for road works and that the road margins are frequently far too wide. With that point of view I am in full agreement. I have endeavoured, as best I can, to eliminate the acquisition of land except in certain places where it is clear that in addition to the road improvement now being done, further improvements may be needed later. So far as I am concerned, I have let it be known that my policy is to eliminate the superfluous cutting of corners. I think that far too much money is being spent on that. I hope in future that, as a result of my declared policy, less land will be acquired for the making of roads except in the cases to which I have referred.

Deputy J. Brennan and other Deputies pleaded for more expenditure on county roads. He also suggested that the policy I am now endeavouring to implement is the policy of my predecessor. I am not unaware of the fact that Deputy Smith increased the grants for county roads out of the income from the Road Fund when it began to improve but I can take credit for increasing the grant from £1,700,000 to £2,200,000 in the last financial year and to £2,400,000 in the present financial year. Thus, the county road improvement grant was, last year, £500,000 more than it was in 1954-55 and in the present year it is £700,000 more than in 1954-55. The House will see that I am actually implementing what Deputy Brennan asked me to do. That has been my declared policy since I took over the office of Minister for Local Government.

Deputy Rooney referred to the wearing of crash helmets. Possibly I should have referred to that in reply to Deputy Lemass. It was stated that the wearing of crash helmets was obligatory in England. I am not aware of that but I am aware that various manufacturers are endeavouring to improve not only the design but also the material used in crash helmets. It would be premature at this stage to bring in a regulation compelling motor-cyclists, or even ordinary cyclists, to wear crash helmets, although I would suggest, without making it obligatory, that motorcyclists should wear such helmets. I hope the day will arrive when an ideal standard of crash helmet, both from the point of view of material and design, can be evolved. When it is, I hope it will be compulsory for all cyclists to wear them for their own safety.

Deputy Barrett suggested that hotels should be prevented from putting up signs which might be confused with certain road signs. With that I am in agreement but the Commissioner of the Garda Síochána has power to make regulations to prevent the display of these signs. When the international signs to which I referred become operative in this country and elsewhere there will be no danger of confusion.

Deputy Tully discussed the question of working overtime in the long evenings in order to get surface dressing done during fine weather. I do not want to be drawn into this controversy at all but all Deputies will appreciate that a good deal of money could be lost were we to surface our tarred roads during wet weather. I think it is really desirable that we should take advantage of the good weather. I am not going to enter into a discussion on the matter. I am merely expressing a point of view when I say that I think advantage should be taken of the good weather to get on with the tarring of the roads.

With regard to the Local Authorities (Works) Act schemes, they are usually executed during the winter months. The Deputy advocated that they should be executed during the summer months. Road work goes on during those months and takes up the greater portion of the year, but in special cases I am prepared to sanction grants for the Local Authorities (Works) Act schemes during the summer months, schemes such as drainage works which could not possibly be done during the winter months. I had application made to sanction schemes during the early harvest. I granted permission to continue with the execution of these schemes during the summer months and I propose doing the same this year when a special case is made.

Deputy Giles referred to the rebuilding of Enfield Bridge. I am aware that this is a very serious matter. A grant was made available for the rebuilding of this bridge. Unfortunately, certain difficulties have arisen with regard to the acquisition of land for it. Then, there is the question of diverting traffic while the bridge is in process of being built. That is a serious matter. As the House knows, this is a road on which there has been considerable traffic congestion and it is very difficult to divert the traffic. The local authority are preparing schemes and when they are submitted I shall make no delay in sanctioning them. The planning of the bridge itself is a matter for the local authority.

A number of Deputies referred to what they described as the raid on the Road Fund. I propose referring very briefly indeed to the matter. It is a matter which will be raised with the Minister for Finance and I thought it would be raised on the Finance Bill to-day but no Deputy, other than Deputy Lemass, offered himself on this particular subject. Very many times in this House, we have criticised the policy of my predecessor in spending money on the cutting of turns and the widening of the main roads. I have endeavoured to reverse that policy. I have endeavoured to divert to the county roads the money which was being spent on what have been called the autobahns. Actually, this year I have increased the county road allocation by £200,000.

Any money that has been taken out of the Road Fund has been taken out, first of all, for capital investment and if it were left there it would be expended on the elimination of these expensive turns. Deputy Smith justified his action in the widening of certain roads. He instanced the road between Navan and Cavan and said he thought it was a good thing to do. Personally, I think all main roads are quite good, We must bring the county roads up to a certain standard. I also think that housing, land improvement and capital investment are much more essential than the cutting of these corners and the making of these autobahns. I think it is a good thing to divert £500,000 for capital investment. I would like to see our housing and land improved to the standard of our main roads. If they are, then we will be able to review the situation.

I make no apology at all for being a member of a Government which took £500,000 for capital investment out of the Road Fund which would have gone into the improvement of these trunk roads and main roads.

Is it contended that local authorities could not spend on the further improvement of county roads this £500,000?

County roads?

As I said, I have stepped up by £200,000——

That is not the question. I am merely asking the Minister is he now contending that, if they had got this further £500,000, they have not the necessary organisation to spend it on county roads?

I am not, but I am saying that it is much better to divert it to housing and give it to the local authority to expend on housing and other capital investments which are absolutely essential and which are lagging far behind the main roads to which the Deputy referred. As I pointed out, I have stepped up this year by £200,000 the allocation for county roads.

Now, with regard to sanitary services, I think that most of the criticism referred to local schemes. Deputy Gilbride said that no progress was made on the North Sligo regional water supply scheme for the past two years. The Deputy is well aware that this is a regional scheme and I think the only difference between the Deputy and the local authority and myself is that he wanted to start at one end and the local authority decided to start at another. I have personal experience of regional water schemes. One in my own county was started somewhere in the early thirties and is not yet completed, but, certainly, it is an ideal scheme and will reach out into all the localities and all the areas for which the original scheme was planned, and I have no doubt that the North Sligo regional water supply scheme will reach out to the area in which Deputy Gilbride is particularly interested. A start must be made in some place and we must depend on the engineering advice tendered to us as to where that start should be made.

Deputy Bartley raised the question of the Costello regional water supply, as he did last year. I really do not know what I can say with regard to this scheme. Certain provisions of the Water Supplies Act, 1942, were not complied with in connection with the council's proposals to acquire certain water rights compulsorily. I sanctioned the scheme, but the mere fact that a Minister sanctions a scheme should not in itself prohibit the local authority from changing their mind. I understand that water of fair quantity and quality was met at borings made at Banroughbaun and Derrough. Fair quantity and quality was met at a depth of seven and 15 feet in these places. As I said before, the mere fact that a Minister sanctions a scheme should not compel the local authority to proceed with it. If they wish they are entitled to change their mind and proceed with borings elsewhere or with alternative plans.

Deputy Blaney referred to the water supply scheme for Fanad and he said that I was impeding the water supply scheme for this locality. That is not so. That statement is incorrect. The Fanad scheme has not yet been designed and, therefore, there is no question of my Department approving or withdrawing approval in connection with the scheme. I am most anxious that the Donegal County Council should get on with the preparation of the plan and the design.

As I stated in reply to a parliamentary question on 25th April last, it is intended by the Government that a new assessment of the extent of the Fior-Ghaeltacht should be made and that the returns furnished in the recent census should be taken into account for that purpose. The case of Fanad West will receive the fullest consideration in the light of these returns when they become available.

Deputy Blaney knows, as I stated in reply to that parliamentary question, that if a regional scheme, designed primarily to cater for the Fior-Ghaeltacht, includes portion of the Fanad West district, on engineering grounds, I would consider that that portion had a case for preferential treatment. I made that very clear when I replied to the parliamentary question. I think it was actually on the Adjournment, when he raised the matter again on the Adjournment, that I made it clear that I was only anxious to facilitate this part of Deputy Blaney's constituency. I now appeal to him, as chairman of the county council, to get on with the design of the scheme and submit it to the Department for sanction and I can assure him that, if it is submitted to the Department, there will be very little delay in their approving it or otherwise.

Deputy Jack Lynch made some criticism of the Department's attitude towards the density of housing development and suggested that the Department of Local Government were opposed to terrace type houses. It is not the policy of the Department to intervene in any way in the planning of local authority housing schemes, except to ensure that certain minimum standards are observed. These standards are not unduly high, as all members of local authorities know, and the Department has not in recent years required the Cork Corporation to increase the density of development or to enlarge the accommodation standards of any of their dwellings. I think some six years ago one of my predecessors issued a circular letter to local authorities generally drawing attention to an undue concentration on small detached houses and small house blocks, and suggesting that in many cases the design of schemes of terraced houses would enable more economical use to be made of the available building land, as well as achieving a saving in building and development costs. I am not quoting the exact wording of the circular, but I am giving the gist of it. A more general use of terraced planning by Cork Corporation would be very welcome indeed by my Department and I certainly recommend them to consider it in planning further schemes.

Deputy Casey from Cork suggested that I or my advisers were complacent about housing progress in Cork. It is but right that I should give some figures in connection with housing in Cork. At the beginning of the financial year, 1951, there were 314 houses in progress. In 1954, there were 538 in progress and, in 1956, there were 655 in progress. The numbers in tender or for which tenders are invited are 211 now as compared with 98 last year. This is a record which left me with no alternative but to compliment the Cork Corporation on the magnificent work they are doing. I am quite satisfied that Cork Corporation are making a serious effort to grapple with the housing problem there and they certainly have stepped up progress during the years.

Lollipops will not have much effect on us.

The Deputy may be inflated sufficiently without them. Does he wish to become deflated?

You ought to give us the money.

I told the Deputy the other day to get on with the job, to get on with the work. I am giving him the same advice to-day.

The banks said they would not accept your word.

I have heard so much of that—these stories. Nationally, there is a lot of damage done by the impressions that are created. What did the Deputy say?

The banks would not accept your word.

The banks would not accept my word?

Is that not a very serious statement? I will give an example. I have been assured by a citizen of Dublin, to-day, that this morning he was in a barber's shop and the barber, not knowing who he was, said to him: "I have been assured on very good authority that a cheque on Dublin Corporation bounced last week." It is remarks such as that made by the Lord Mayor of Cork that cause that sort of thing.

And the Minister repeats in the House what he heard in the barber's shop.

I did not say I heard it.

You did so.

Would the Deputy pay a little attention to what I do say?

Somebody else heard it in a barber's shop and the Minister repeats it here.

I do, to show the damage that you people are doing.

Does the Minister not know that he gave the corporation sanction for an overdraft and that the bank refused it?

I told the Lord Mayor to get on with the job in Cork, and he should do it.

Ask Deputy Barry what the manager said yesterday.

Never mind. It is what I say here.

It does not count with the banks.

Deputy Casey also referred to a proposal of the Cork Corporation for the building of a tenant-purchase scheme having being turned down by the Department. This proposal to which Deputy Casey referred was a proposal to substitute a tenant-purchase scheme for a working-class scheme of 96 houses at Mayfield, for which tenders had already been received by the corporation. I refused to sanction the proposal. I took the view, and I take the view, that the present housing effort of the Cork Corporation should be directed towards completing the programme for the rehousing of the priority classes. I have praised Cork but I think they are not doing sufficient to house the priority cases. I think they are not doing sufficient work to clear the slums of Cork. Certainly I shall encourage them to do so if they wish.

Would it not be possible for both things to go ahead?

Of course it would. If you submit plans for the other matter to me I will sanction them very quickly. Deputy Smith referred to the Housing Acts. He said the Housing Acts expired on the 31st March last and that there was no housing legislation in force. That is not true. What expired on the 31st March last was the date for completion for private house grants. The Housing Acts are still in force. The only thing which expired was the date for completion for private house grants. All other housing laws continue in force, as in the past.

I gave an undertaking that a Housing Bill would be introduced here. I confirm that undertaking now. I do not wish to disclose the terms of it as I do not think it would be right to do so at this stage.

It was always done.

In advance of the introduction of the Bill?

The housing public are well used to this practice. It has been the practice down through the years. They are well aware that, if there was to be any reduction in building grants, due and proper notice would be given by me.

That is all we want.

I would give due and proper notice to the building public and to the prospective buyers of houses so far as reducing grants are concerned. I think I have referred to the scheme to which Deputy McGrath referred: I did not intend to refer to it at the particular stage at which I did. I appeal now to Cork Corporation to get on with this scheme, to get on with the building, and, if they do, they need not worry about it.

Deputy Smith referred to what he did to provide money at 3¼ per cent. for Small Dwellings Acts borrowers who had already entered into commitments when the rate was increased in 1952 to 5¼ per cent. Deputy Smith knows very well that on that occasion he took steps to ensure that such a situation would not arise again. He advised local authorities by circular that, for the future, borrowers should be informed in advance that the rate of interest should be related to the rate current at the time of the issue of money from the Local Loans Fund.

That was always the case.

After the increase in the interest rate to 5¼ per cent. in 1952, the rate fell again to 4¾ per cent. in January, 1954, and to 4½ per cent. in December, 1954. Now, the rate has gone up to the 1952 level. We have not gone beyond it. At that time, there was a very steep increase in the rate: there was an increase of 2 per cent. There were exceptional circumstances. Deputy Smith, the then Minister, ensured that they would never occur again. We are only back at the 1952 level.

That is not correct. The Minister knows that circulars are as common as the falling snow in winter. A contract is one thing and a circular from the Department is another thing. As a lawyer, surely the Minister appreciates that point.

This was the very first circular issued on this subject and it was issued by Deputy Smith. It was to ensure that local authorities would be informed of what would occur in the future and that they would inform borrowers of the rate at which they would have to repay. There was a sudden steep increase of 2 per cent. in the rate in 1952. I could understand Deputy Smith's attitude. These are normal fluctuations. The rate is now only the 1952 rate. I remember that when it fell no person groused that he wished to pay the higher rate because he had entered into a contract or because a loan had been sanctioned.

Deputy Casey referred to the encouragement which should be given to people to own their houses. Local authorities are aware of the very reasonable minimum terms I am prepared to approve of for sales. The differential rents scheme should not be an insuperable obstacle to the formulation of terms.

Deputy James Tully asked that provision be made for amendment of Vesting Orders under cottage purchase schemes where the Vesting Orders contained an error or mistake. I do not know exactly what he meant but I take it he was referring to Vesting Orders which had been made. If an error or mistake has occurred in a Vesting Order, I have power to amend, on the application of any person interested, without further legislation.

That should be "scheme"—"vesting scheme".

In the case of Orders I have power to amend. The Deputy also suggests that provision be made for adjusting annuities where the rents were increased because of the installation of electricity or some other change between the making of the scheme and the vesting of the cottage. It should be possible to make an agreement outside the terms of the Vesting Order in relation to any additional amenity which may be installed. They have power to enter into an agreement, apart altogether from the Vesting Order, for payment in respect of any amenities which may have been installed. You cannot change the Vesting Order.

What about a change of tenancy?

I do not know if that would cover it. However, there is power to enter into an agreement whereby all these additional amenities could be paid for apart from the Vesting Order.

Deputy J. Brennan spoke about housing grants for the special housing of persons with T.B. He said the matter was being frustrated by red-tape. His information must have been obtained before November, 1954. At that time, I told the Donegal County Council—his own county council—that I would not be disposed to interfere with the discretion of the council in the matter of meeting the need or otherwise for whatever approved type of additional accommodation was required for a member of a family suffering from pulmonary T.B. At that time I cut all the red tape so far as these houses and schemes were concerned. I hope that additional accommodation will be provided. I offered to back by grants any action taken by the local authority with the approval of the county medical officer of health and the county engineer. I could not go further than that. I cut any red-tape which had existed in the building of this additional accommodation for T.B. patients.

Deputy J. Brennan also referred to a refusal of sanction to unserviced cottages being erected in Donegal over a limit of £1,100. That is quite true but I must remind the Deputy that although in Donegal it is £1,100, in other areas it is only £1,000, and there is very good reason for it. I do not wish to suggest to local authorities that they should build one of these unserviced cottages for £1,000 unless they are able to do it and I am going to quote figures to show what other local authorities can do. In Wexford the local authority can build these unserviced cottages for £775; in Laois for £795; in Offaly for £840; in Limerick for £890 and in Meath for £827. Deputies will see from these figures which I have just quoted that building of unserviced cottages at £1,000 or at £1,100 in County Donegal is therefore——

Are these recent figures?

They are quite recent figures. Deputy Lynch—I do not know which of them it was—and Deputy Brennan made pleas in favour of corrugated asbestos roofing. I have to be guided by technical advisers on these matters and they advise me that asbestos roofing is not a good roofing. They say it is not suitable material for the roofing of dwellings and the regulations require that the various materials outlined in the specification should be used. However, as I have stated many times before, while I am not prepared to depart from the regulations, where it is clear that the applicant acted in good faith or has been in any way misled, I am prepared to waive the reduction of the grant but not otherwise. I think the Minister's technical advisers advise on what is best and that we, as laymen, must be guided by them.

Since the introduction of this Estimate, I entertained to luncheon members of the executive committee of the Municipal Authorities Association. I merely mention this to inform the House that at the end of that luncheon I had the planning officer of my Department give a lecture on our recent itinerary in France where we inspected various housing schemes, examples of town planning in the reconstruction of the war-damaged areas. The lecture was illustrated by lantern slides showing flat development, town planning and other urban and port developments in Paris, Marseilles, Orleans and other cities and towns.

I should like to take this opportunity of thanking the French Minister for the Interior and the Secretary of State for Reconstruction, both of whom placed every possible facility and hospitality at our disposal and gave to the technicians who accompanied me all the information and knowledge at their disposal when it was requested.

Deputy O'Malley referred to the rate of interest payable on loans from building societies and said that from 6¾ to 7 per cent. would be payable. The interest rates charged by building societies are as follows: Building Societies, 6½ to 7 per cent. per annum; Workingman's Benefit Building Society, 6½ per cent. per 20 years to 30 years; Irish Permanent Building Society, 7 per cent. per 25 to 35 years; Educational Building Society 7 per cent. per 25 to 35 years. I think the Deputy said as a result of the guarantee scheme which we are negotiating at present the average man in the street, the man about to marry will be bringing on himself repayments of an extra 10/- or 12/6 per week. Of course that is not true.

In Limerick City, the Deputy's own city, the average loan is £1,200 and this also appears to be the average loan made by local authorities who normally borrow from the Local Loans Fund. At the current rate of interest of 5¾ per cent. charged by most local authorities under the Acts, the loan repayments would be about £80 per year. I may say it is common practice for building societies to advance loans for a term of 35 years. Assuming that he were to pay the highest rate of interest, that is 7 per cent. now charged by building societies that would work out, as I said, at a rate of 7 per cent. and his repayment would be £92 a year for a loan period of 35 years. In short, he would be merely paying an extra £12 a year or less than 5/- a week extra. The Deputy's figure of 10/- or 12/6 a week is absolutely incorrect. The average would be 5/- per week for a £1,200 loan at 7 per cent. over a 35 year period.

The Minister has quoted the old rates of building societies. Is the Minister aware that they have increased their interest rate and as a result the borrowing rate will increase?

I am afraid I am not so aware and I can only give the Deputy the figures I have.

In to-day's paper they have advertised the new rates.

I am not aware of that but I am giving these figures and I am aware of these.

The new highest rates compare with the old lowest rates.

The Deputy also said that the building societies had not the slightest intention of giving 35-year loans. That is not true.

To everyone, I said.

Oh, well now——

That is the official record of the debate.

They give 35-year loans in certain circumstances. They have agreed under the guarantee scheme that we are negotiating to consider loans for 35 years in the majority of cases and I think we should be quite satisfied with that.

Now we come to Dublin Corporation. Deputy James Larkin spoke at some length reviewing the progress of conferences and negotiations in connection with the financial difficulties which have arisen in Dublin since last autumn and he also referred to the assurance given by the former Minister for Local Government, the late Deputy T.J. Murphy. The tenor of the Deputy's speech was so closely related to current problems that Deputies may have failed to advert to the fact that the late Minister's discussions and assurances related to the rehousing of the poor of Dublin out of the slums of Dublin.

No, relating to the housing campaign generally.

Well I looked up the references recently and I am satisfied that he was dealing with the rehousing of the poor in the slums of Dublin. He gave the assurance that lack of money should not prevent these schemes proceeding. I think he said that the progress in that direction would not be slowed down or held up by financial difficulties. I renew that assurance— of course, within the limitations of our financial resources—given by the late Deputy T.J. Murphy with regard to the rehousing of the poor in the slums of Dublin. Financial considerations should not retard the building programme for rehousing these people.

The Deputy did criticise the conferences over which I presided and I think also the joint conferences which were held by the Minister for Finance and myself with Dublin Corporation. We are anxious to secure and to divert as much money as possible towards that channel whereby the poor of Dublin may be rehoused. We are anxious to take out of that class the white collar workers and to give them the privilege and advantage of participating in the scheme we are now endeavouring to promote. That will leave the Dublin Corporation with much more money to proceed with the rehousing of the poor from the slums of Dublin. Of course there is no doubt whatever about it, the late Deputy Murphy's assurance about the continuity of finance did not apply in any way to the operation of the Small Dwellings Acquisition Acts.

To all housing. Did he not amend the Small Dwellings Acts to make them more effective? Did he not reduce the deposits?

I can assure the House that the Government's policy on housing includes making of provisions for the purchase of houses by persons unable to obtain loans save by way of advances from the corporation and it is for that reason I am endeavouring to negotiate with the insurance companies and the building societies. As regards those who can negotiate loans from other sources, I fail to see on what grounds Deputy Larkin can criticise the suggestions I have made. I need not remind the Deputies, of course, of the financial stringencies of the present day.

What does that mean?

I do not wish, as I said before, to see the well-to-do salary earner or property owner or business man standing in the same queue with the poor unfortunate applicant on £10 a week, waiting for an advance from the Local Loans Fund. I want to take those people out of that quoue and to make available to them other sources from which they may obtain loans for building their own homes.

At higher rates.

Deputy Briscoe's demand is that I should give Dublin Corporation a blank cheque to do all this work.

We always had it.

It was not so. It was not the corporation's own.

We always had it.

Let me explain at this stage that the pattern of finance in Dublin Corporation has not changed in any way down through the years. As I said many times in this House, I offered to assist Dublin Corporation in the month of November last to float their loan and make it a success. I did the same thing for Cork Corporation and my advice was accepted. I am not saying it was through my efforts, but I contributed a little towards making their loan a success. I offered to do the same in Dublin, and when it came to their loan flotation I gave them sanction, as was given by my predecessor, to go to the bank for an overdraft which they could liquidate when their loan was floated. But the loan was not the success it should have been, and you know the way that the Government has come to their assistance.

Deputy Smith joined in this campaign for the first time in his speech on the Estimate when he referred to my speech at the opening of the housing scheme in Bandon. It is right that I should quote what I said in Bandon. Having indicated the statutory responsibilities of local authorities for housing certain classes, I said:—

"It is no part of the housing authority's responsibility to provide houses for persons whose circumstances are such that they may reasonably be expected to rehouse themselves or who are of a class normally catered for by private enterprise.

The necessity for establishing the reality of the need for houses before building them may seem elementary. I am aware, however, of a few cases in recent times in which the local authority proposed the erection of a far greater number of houses in individual schemes than was warranted by an examination of the circumstances of the persons for whom the houses were to be built."

Those remarks were dictated by no desire to slow up essential housing but rather to concentrate both central and local funds and local effort on essential housing. I was not speaking without experience when I said that. I know of a case, and Deputies on both sides of the House know of it, where a scheme of 103 houses had been completed and some of the houses were allocated to a teacher, a bank cashier, an accountant, a civil servant, a doctor, an hotelier, a bank official and a senior official of a local authority. It was to eliminate such schemes and the building of such schemes that I spoke in Bandon. That very scheme of 103 houses to which I refer is not 100 miles from the City of Dublin.

It was not in Dublin?

No, not in the City or County of Dublin. It is to prevent schemes such as that being permitted that I urge that due consideration should be given to them. At Bandon I was looking at a number of derelict sites in the centre of the town which could, in my opinion, have been reconstructed. It was to those houses I was referring when I said that, before proceeding with other building schemes, we should take an inventory of those houses which, in my opinion, could be reconstructed, and we would possibly find that we would not need some of the elaborate schemes such as those 103 houses being undertaken again.

Were they in Cork City or County?

The Minister said within 100 miles of Dublin.

He knew he was safe there.

With regard to the pattern of Dublin housing, Deputy Smith did refer to his relations with the Dublin Corporation. I am going to read a few extracts from letters written to Deputy Smith when he was Minister from the Dublin Corporation and a few extracts from letters written to me within the past few months, on housing and finance. I want Deputies to pay particular attention to that, and, before I read them, to what was said by Deputy Smith when he was Minister for Local Government in July, 1952, about Dublin Corporation's finance problems. I refer to the Dáil Debates, Volume 133, column 171:—

"...the Dublin Corporation is not hindered in any way at the moment because of lack of finance. There is no question of their being in straitened circumstances. It is the business of the corporation when looking to the future to discover the places from which and the conditions under which money may be provided for the future. It is the business of those—it is certainly not my business —responsible for the running of the banks to look at things from their own point of view, having regard, of course, at the same time to other interest. All this is quite understandable."

Deputy Smith continued:—

"The situation has arisen before, as Deputy Norton pointed out. As long as I can remember, since the housing problem of the Dublin Corporation has been pursued energetically, these difficulties have arisen from time to time over the last 30 years. I am quite prepared to examine the steps that should be taken by the corporation to provide themselves with the necessary finances."

I offer them the same.

They always got something.

Deputy Smith went on to say:—

"I am sure that all the institutions concerned are doing their business. The Government has not failed to do its part. There is no need to be alarmed. As the old saying goes, there is no need to shake hands with the devil until we meet him."

That was in July, 1952, and the devil, incidentally, did not appear for another six months when a £5,000,000 stock issue was floated in February, 1953.

They never met him in my company.

Deputy Smith goes on to refer to the letter of the 25th October, 1954. I do not think I need bother the House with that.

It is not as good as you thought.

I have gone very carefully through the papers dealing with the situation to which Deputy Smith was referring in the statement I have just read. It is most remarkable that the sequence of events leading up to the stock issue made in February, 1953, during his term of office, was very similar to that which Deputy Briscoe described here last week. On the 15th January, 1952, the corporation sent a letter to the Department saying that the proceeds of the previous stock issue would be exhausted by the end of June and that the corporation would need to make arrangements for the provision of £5,000,000 for expenditure during the year from June, 1952.

The first point of similarity is between the phrasing and form of the letters of the 25th October, 1954, and the letter of 15th January, 1952. The first paragraph of the letter of the 15th January, 1952, reads as follows:—

"The finance and general purposes committee of the corporation, having examined the position as to capital expenditure, is of the opinion that the proceeds of the issue of £5,000,000 Dublin Corporation 3½ per cent. Stock, 1960-65, which was underwritten by the Minister for Finance and was issued on the 4th June, 1951, at the issue price of £98 per £100 stock, will be exhausted, they estimate, at the end of June, 1952."

The first paragraph of the letter of the 25th October, 1954, is almost word for word. It reads:—

"The finance and general purposes committee of the corporation, having examined the position as to capital expenditure, is of the opinion that the proceeds of the issue of £5,000,000 Dublin Corporation 4½ per cent. Stock, 1970-75, which was underwritten by the Minister for Finance and the Irish banks and was issued in June, 1954, will be exhausted at the end of December, 1954."

What is wrong with that? It is a statement of fact.

The next sentence of the letter of the 15th January, 1952 reads as follows:—

"The committee also made an estimate of the money which will be required for expenditure during the year from June 1952 and is of the opinion that the corporation will need to make arrangements for the provision of £5,000,000 for expenditure during that year."

The second sentence of the letter of the 25th October, 1954, is exactly the same except for the difference in the amount required and a difference in the dates. The letter of the 15th January then says: "Details are set out hereunder", and goes on to set out these details, which come to a total of £4,943,000. The letter of the 25th October, 1954, is again almost word for word. Instead of: "Details are set out hereunder", it says: "Details of the expenditure are set out hereunder". Then, as before, the details of the expenditure are given, coming to a total of £6,500,000.

The applications are the same but the results are different. We got the money then. Now we do not get it.

On the 29th April, 1952, the corporation wrote:—

"The finance and general purposes committee of the Dublin Corporation at its meeting on the 28th instant expressed concern that a reply had not been received from your Department in regard to this matter."

On the 20th May, 1952, the corporation wrote:—

"The finance and general purposes committee at its meeting held on the 19th instant were perturbed that no reply to my previous letters to you on the subject had been received from your Department."

On the 1st July, 1952, the corporation wrote describing the interview which a deputation had with the Irish Banks Standing Committee on the 27th June, 1952, and their letter ended by saying:—

"The committee were pertubed that to date they have no indication that money will be available to finance the corporation's capital undertakings and they directed me to request a reply from you within the next 14 days."

On the 2nd July, 1952, a statement appeared in the Press under the heading: "Banks Refuse £5,000,000 Loan for Housing." The Press report goes on to say:—

"The finance committee of the corporation met the Irish Banks Standing Committee to try to negotiate a loan of £5,000,000 needed for housing schemes. The banks turned down the request stating that even at 5 per cent. interest they could not meet the corporation in any way."

The Tánaiste, then Deputy Norton, referred to the Press reports during the final stages of the 1952 Housing Bill and it was in reply to the points he made that Deputy Smith, then Minister for Local Government, made the statements I have quoted which ended with the advice that there was no need to shake hands with the devil until you meet him.

I should like to make it clear that Dublin Corporation in 1952, tried the same tactics as in 1956. The Dublin Corporation adopted the same tactics, the only difference being that this time they succeeded in getting £1,000,000 out of the present Government from the Local Loans Fund, plus an undertaking to pay £3,000,000 for their other capital schemes. Those are two very important items. I know some Deputies may say that the £3,000,000 has not been paid. I have asked, through my Department, for a break-down of that £3,000,000. I find that they have directed their building director to refrain from accepting tenders for £400,000——

That has yet to be discussed by the corporation.

Instead of giving me the information I sought and a break-down of the £3,000,000, they are trying in my opinion—I may be misinterpreting their actions—to create a crisis that does not exist.

When the Minister sees the men who are out of work he will know whether there is a crisis or not.

The present financial crisis is analogous to the other crises which they have had in the past seven years. There were similar crises earlier, during the war. I anticipated all this in November last and that is why I offered Dublin Corporation my services in an endeavour to float their loan and make it a success because the money underwritten could not be diverted to other purposes of the corporation. Deputy Denis Larkin referred to an announcement in today's paper. I am afraid I have no official notification of that matter, but I feel certain the corporation will carefully consider the recommendations of the finance committee before sanctioning them.

How can we give money we have not got?

I think I have mentioned most of the points which have been raised. Deputy Briscoe did throw in an interjection asking how they could spend money they had not got. We have given you an undertaking——

Not for small dwellings.

We have given you £1,000,000.

You have given us £500,000 of the £1,000,000.

We gave you £500,000 on the day on which you asked for it. You will get the rest in August.

If that is the attitude the Minister adopts, I do not think there is need to say any more.

There is nothing more I have to say except to give the assurance given by the late lamented Deputy Tim Murphy that for the housing of the poor of the slums of Dublin——

That was not the undertaking.

While I was speaking on the Estimate I raised a very important matter to which the Minister has not referred. That was the question of a judicial inquiry asked for by the Mayo County Council into allegations made by the auditor in regard to transactions in reference to the Achill bridges. I cannot understand the Minister's attitude in not referring to the matter.

I must apologise to Deputy O'Hara and to the House for omitting to refer to that matter. I am considering the request of the county council and I will communicate with the council and with the Deputy as soon as I possibly can. It is still sub judice.

There are people throughout the country very perturbed——

The Deputy may not make a second speech. The Chair gave him the opportunity of asking a question.

If on Friday morning next the City Manager of Dublin brings word to the Minister that the Bank of Ireland will not give a penny overdraft to the corporation in respect of housing on foot of the Government's £3,000,000 assurance, will the Minister take action?

It is very difficult to answer such a hypothetical question. Such a request has not been brought to me. It is hypothetical. As Deputy Smith has said, it is time enough to bid the devil good-morrow when you meet him.

I am glad the Minister has such respect for some of the advice he receives from this side——

I have always respect for the Deputy when he refers to the devil. He is an expert on that subject.

Is the Minister not aware that the money we have got is already committed and that we in Dublin Corporation cannot accept any more applications for small dwellings loans?

I am not so aware and the Deputy informed both the Minister for Finance and myself that the £1,000,000 would be sufficient to tide the corporation over present needs.

Question—"That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration"— put.
The Committee divided: —Tá, 63; Níl, 72.

Tá.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Denis.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Blaney, Neil T.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breen, Dan.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Brennan, Paudge.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Burke, Patrick J.
  • Butler, Bernard.
  • Calleary, Phelim A.
  • Carter, Frank.
  • Childers, Erskine H.
  • Colbert, Michael.
  • Colley, Harry.
  • Collins, James J.
  • Corry, Martin J.
  • Crowley, Honor M.
  • Davern, Michael J.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • de Valera, Eamon.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Egan, Kieran P.
  • Egan, Nicholas.
  • Fanning, John.
  • Flynn, John.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Geoghegan, John.
  • Gilbride, Eugene.
  • Gogan, Richard.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Hillery, Patrick J.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Kenneally, William.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Lahiffe, Robert.
  • Lemass, Seán.
  • Lynch, Celia.
  • Lynch, Jack.
  • MacCarthy, Seán.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • McGrath, Patrick.
  • Maguire, Ben.
  • Maher, Peadar.
  • Moher, John W.
  • Mooney, Patrick.
  • Moran, Michael.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Malley, Donough.
  • Ormonde, John.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Mary B.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Walsh, Thomas.

Níl.

  • Barrett, Stephen D.
  • Barry, Anthony.
  • Barry, Richard.
  • Beirne, John.
  • Belton, Jack.
  • Blowick, Joseph.
  • Burke, James J.
  • Byrne, Patrick.
  • Byrne, Thomas.
  • Carew, John.
  • Casey, Seán.
  • Coburn, George.
  • Collins, Seán.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Costello, Declan.
  • Costello, John A.
  • Crotty, Patrick J.
  • Crowe, Patrick.
  • Deering, Mark.
  • Desmond, Daniel.
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Manley, Timothy.
  • Morrissey, Dan.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, Michael P.
  • Murphy, William.
  • Norton, William.
  • O'Carroll, Maureen.
  • O'Connor, Kathleen.
  • O'Donnell, Patrick.
  • O'Donovan, John.
  • O'Hara, Thomas.
  • Dockrell, Henry P.
  • Dockrell, Maurice E.
  • Donnellan, Michael.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Dunne, Seán.
  • Everett, James.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Finlay, Thomas A.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Giles, Patrick.
  • Glynn, Brendan M.
  • Hession, James M.
  • Hughes, Joseph.
  • Kenny, Henry.
  • Keyes, Michael.
  • Kyne, Thomas A.
  • Larkin, Denis.
  • Leary, Johnny.
  • Lindsay, Patrick J.
  • Lynch, Thaddeus.
  • McAuliffe, Patrick.
  • MacBride, Seán.
  • O'Higgins, Michael J.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F.
  • O'Reilly, Patrick.
  • O'Sullivan, Denis J.
  • Palmer, Patrick W.
  • Pattison, James P.
  • Reynolds, Mary.
  • Roddy, Joseph.
  • Rooney, Eamonn.
  • Sheldon, William A.W.
  • Spring, Dan.
  • Sweetman, Gerard.
  • Tully, James.
  • Tully, John.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Ó Briain and Hilliard; Níl: Deputies P.S. Doyle and Mrs. O'Carroll.
Question declared lost.
Vote put and agreed to.
Barr
Roinn