Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 7 May 1957

Vol. 161 No. 7

Committee on Finance. - Vote 55—Wireless Broadcasting.

Minister for Posts and Telegraphs (Mr. Blaney)

I move:—

That a sum not exceeding £287,000 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1958, for Salaries and other Expenses in connection with Wireless Broadcasting (No. 45 of 1926), including Public Concerts.

Because of the short time I have been in charge of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. I cannot give any account in detail of the working of wireless broadcasting and I must content myself with giving the House the general information I have got about the service with a few brief remarks about matters of policy as I found them in the making.

I am aware from the debates in the House and from my advisers that a very significant change took place in the general structure of Radio Eireann and in the control exercised over it from 1st January, 1953. I shall say a few words later about the effect of these changes, but I wish to mention first the financial arrangements fixed in 1953 and how they relate to the Estimate as published for the coming year.

Prior to 1953, all the money that broadcasting got, whether for capital expenditure or for programmes, was provided by the Exchequer without any direct relation to the amount recovered through the Post Office in licence fees. From January, 1953, however, the arrangements were changed, with Government approval, and the full receipts from licence fees and sponsored programmes fees were placed at the disposal of Radio Eireann for its day to day working. Equipment was provided by subsidy and buildings continued to be reconstructed and erected by the Commissioners of Public Works without cost to broadcasting. For convenience of reference, the whole financial arrangement was known as the "formula".

In the years immediately following 1953, the full receipts from fees were not needed for programme expenditure and the balance was surrendered to the Exchequer as had always been the case when the Vote had not been expended in full. As plans for better programmes costing more money were made and put into execution, the annual expenditure came closer to the receipts. Although the approved formula was not formally abolished or altered, the amount provided for the year with which we are dealing— 1957/58—is about £30,000 less than it would have been if the formula had operated in full, including the grant of a subsidy for all the equipment needed.

The amount in the Estimate was, however, settled for the coming year under somewhat abnormal circumstances. Last year, the Government approved in principle of a further reorganisation of Radio Eireann which would have put a statutory board in charge and the financial structure was left to be worked out between the two Ministers principally concerned, Finance and Posts and Telegraphs. No agreement had, however, been reached between these Ministers by the time of the dissolution of the Dáil, so that the Estimate, which had then to be prepared hurriedly, was left at the amount provided last year and this, as I have stated, is considerably less than would have been the case had the formula operated in full.

The Department of Finance, in agreeing to repeat last year's figure, recognised that the reorganisation proposals would probably have to be examined again after the general election and that an opportunity would then be available to make any adjustment that appeared to be called for. I would like to be able to get back to the formula, as, on a cursory study, I feel that broadcasting is a service which needs to plan well in advance and that its approved financial arrangements should not be disturbed without serious cause. However, that is a matter I shall have to examine in more detail.

Before I say anything about the future reorganisation contemplated, may I make a brief reference to the present organisation? From my observations as a listener. I am convinced that the standard of the Radio Eireann programmes has improved very considerably since the immediate control was entrusted to a Comhairle with the Director. Whether that improvement was due to better direction, to the decision of the Minister to keep the station away as far as possible from ministerial and parliamentary intervention in details, or whether it was due to better financial provision, I cannot say. Probably the improvement was due in part to all the three causes I have mentioned. I pay tribute to what has been done since 1953, but I do not feel that there is any reason for complacency or for resting on oars. I am sure the service could be improved further in many respects and I am glad to say that the Comhairle and the Director agree with me fully in that.

With that agreement, however, I have got from them a list of things which Radio Eireann has not got but which it should have, if it is to continue to fulfil its mission of providing programmes of entertainment, education and information of a type and standard which will hold Irish people by their distinctive national flavour and atmosphere and prevent them from being wholly absorbed in the broadcasting output of another country.

Here are some of the deficiencies from which, I am informed, Radio Eireann still suffers. I am told that no broadcasting organisation in Europe, except Radio Eireann, is dependent for its studios on office rooms, with all their imperfections in acoustics and sound properties. The single programme which is put out for a restricted number of hours daily cannot be heard effectively by all the people of the country, particularly by those in the outer areas, although they pay the same licence fee as the others. At this stage in sound broadcasting development, listeners also expect to be able to tune in to a second programme of a different type from the general service. Radio Eireann has not been able to provide such a programme for financial reasons. I understand, in fact, that Radio Eireann is given only just half the annual sum for its operations that is made available to every small broad-casting organisation on the Continent.

I am quoting what I have been informed as being responsible for keeping Radio Eireann back from making the further improvements it would like to make. I am not saying now that I either agree or disagree with the statement of deficiencies because I simply do not know enough about the service to commit myself to a definite opinion on any single issue. I do know, of course, that a site was purchased for broadcasting headquarters just ten years ago, but the high cost prevented Governments from proceeding with the building. The present may not be a more favourable time than during the past ten years for very expensive buildings and I do not know if anything could be done by stages. Those responsible for producing Radio Eireann programmes would certainly like to have some relief from the existing studios, which must be regarded as little better than makeshift.

Whilst on the subject of accommodation, I may say that the new studios in the Cork Municipal School of Music are now almost completed. Installation of broadcasting equipment in a new studio centre is always a protracted business but it is expected that the studios will be ready for use within the next few months. In the mean-time, the members of the new programme staff for Cork are being recruited so that they can be trained and ready to contribute programmes as soon as the studios themselves are ready. It will then be possible to initiate more programmes and more ambitious types of programme from Cork. I hope that we shall soon see the results in an increasing element in the Radio Eireann programmes of items which reflect the distinctive character of the City and County of Cork and the Province of Munster generally. The quality of the programmes should, of course, also show a big improvement because of the better studio facilities that will be available.

One of the matters referred to in which I feel a particular interest, although I have not, of course, studied the financial implications of improving the position, is the inability of listeners in the outer fringes to receive the existing Radio Eireann programmes effectively. I understand the remedy for this would likely be brought about by the erection of transmitters using very high frequencies or, in other words very short waves. Instead of a single transmitter serving the whole country a number of smaller transmitters would have to be provided on high ground throughout the country and I am informed that reception from these transmitters is much clearer than from medium or long wave transmitters.

The Radio Eireann engineers have been carrying out a study of the most suitable locations for VHF transmitters but the actual erection and operation would be fairly costly. Even if transmitters could not be provided for a complete second network, I would much like to be able to improve the position for the bad reception districts. The whole matter, including the cost, will, however, have to get very detailed investigation and there are other difficulties, such as the need for listeners to get special receivers for VHF or to provide adapters for their existing sets.

While the Comhairle Organisation for Radio Eireann brought about great changes for the better in broadcasting standards, particularly in the freedom it gave to broadcasters to express their views, the last Government had, as I stated, decided on a further advance and had approved in principle of the setting up of a board by statute to control the operations of broadcasting. I understand the intention was to establish a public service type of organisation, that is, it would not be a purely private body but, on the other hand, it would be responsible to the Minister only in matters of broad policy.

The Fianna Fáil Government had, as I mentioned, set up in 1953 what might be termed the present halfway-house type of organisation and I have not yet had an opportunity of consulting the Government as to whether in the light of the favourable experience of the past four years they would be disposed to establish formally by statute the kind of organisation that has, in practice, been in operation during that period. I shall have to bring the matter before the Government for consideration during the year. In the meantime, I have asked the members of the Comhairle if they would remain in office for an indefinite period and they have agreed to do so.

Generally, Ministers in speaking on the Broadcasting Estimate have referred in some detail to the main programme activities during the previous year. I do not feel it necessary or appropriate to do so for two reasons. First, I have had no official connection with the service during the past year and secondly, broadcasting activities, so far as the programmes are concerned, are as well known to every member of the House as to the Minister. Instead of giving my views on the Radio Eireann programmes. I will content myself by asking Deputies to give me their own comments.

It would help me considerably, however, if their remarks were directed to matters of policy or programme trends rather than to individual programmes. I may, however, remind you that the Radio Eireann programmes, in addition to their ordinary output of information and entertainment all the year round, have dealt as usual with the special occasions that arise during the year— Holy Week, Easter Week, An Tóstal, Christmas Week, and so on, with the addition this year of a General Election.

In particular Radio Eireann has been able to continue its co-operation in artistic activities outside the studio, not only by the public concerts given by the Radio Eireann Symphony Orchestra both in Dublin and in other cities of Ireland, but by supplying an indispensable element of co-operation in two seasons of opera given by the Dublin Grand Opera Society, and in the season of opera provided by the Wexford Festival. The station has also taken part in the activities of the European Broadcasting Union and the Italia prize competition and has produced and transmitted special programmes by arrangement with the Council of Europe and United Nations Radio, New York, in addition to providing facilities to many overseas broadcasting organisations gathering programme material in this country.

Now I want to say a word about television. More and more television aerials are going up, in Dublin and other parts of the country. All the people in the houses under those aerials are watching purely British programmes. It is only natural to say "Why cannot we have a television service of our own?" I wish we could, and I hope some day we shall. The difficulties in the way are financial, and I do not yet know how they can be solved. I am now studying the reports on the possibilities prepared by my Department, as well as the proposals for privately-operated, commercial television which my predecessors and I have received from time to time.

I think it would be a grave decision to entrust the control of so powerful a medium as television to any private concern, working mainly for profit, and I should much prefer to see television established as a public service of some kind, probably integrated with the present sound broadcasting organisation, since in our small country they would both be fishing in the same pool. I know what a boon an Irish television service would be in the remote countryside. But it is important not to be misled into starting a scheme that would merely result in giving the Dublin area a poor copy of British programmes, whilst the rest of the country gained no benefit, and might even have to subsidise a service that they could not receive.

And before I leave the subject I think it desirable to state, for general information, that persons who have television sets only, must possess wireless licences, otherwise they run the risk of prosecution and the confiscation of their sets just as persons in possession of sound radio sets do who fail to take out or renew their licences. The number of persons who have television sets only is growing and it would be bad for our broadcasting finances generally if the idea gained currency among them that the law did not apply to them.

I have had as yet only very few contacts with the Comhairle, Director and Broadcasting officials but I have been impressed by the willingness of all to help the Minister to grasp the intricacies of this unusual type of Civil Service Department. I wish to thank them and the staff generally in Radio Eireann for their work in keeping going a service which has to produce programmes to a strict time schedule for 364 days in the year.

Mr. Healy

We appreciate, of course, that the Minister is new to the Department, that he is taking up something of which he has had no experience. Accordingly, the purpose of my remarks will be directed towards making a few observations in the nature of constructive criticism to which, I hope, the Minister will address himself. I hope at a later stage that he will be able to tell us whether or not it will be possible to put these suggestions into operation.

We all appreciate that the Radio Eireann organisation is peculiarly situated inasmuch as it cannot please every section of the community all the time; in fact it can please every section of the community only infrequently. I think that in this country we should endeavour to promote the mentality that Radio Eireann should lead the people to taste and culture rather than it should pander to the tastes of imported culture. I have in mind something which I think is very beneficial to the youth of the country— the excellent way in which the Radio Eireann light orchestra and symphony orchestra travel to centres throughout the country as well as performing here in Dublin.

They endeavour to provide for an audience of adults in the evening and next morning put on a special programme of very good music for school children. It has been my privilege to be present at some of these performances for children and it is a matter of considerable satisfaction to see the effect such broadcasts have on audiences of between 1,000 and 1,500 children. An explanatory talk by competent people is given to the children in which the different movements are explained in very simple language. I can say that those children have benefited by these talks when I see the way in which they receive the actual performances afterwards.

I wonder would it be at all possible for Radio Eireann to extend this instruction service to cover adult audiences, particularly before the orchestra puts on programmes of classical or semi-classical, or what I might call highbrow music. To some of the school children these programmes are most enjoyable. The same instruction could be given to parents with very little expense.

I realise that at times it is difficult to provide live broadcasts. However, we all appreciate there is an atmosphere about a live broadcast that is nearly always missing from ordinary recordings. The success which attends the broadcasts of the Dublin Grand Opera Society's performances, the atmosphere created for the listeners in the broadcasts of sporting fixtures is, of course, lost where you have mere recorded programmes. I think the authorities should do everything possible to make these live broadcasts available as frequently as they can.

The Minister spoke of the difficulties which listeners encounter in hearing the station in remote areas. That is true particularly in parts of West Cork. I would draw the Minister's attention to something which, to my mind, is of equal importance. We are a very small country and materially very poor, but we boast, with some justification, that we have a very scattered empire all over the world and that in many ways it is a very spiritual empire. It is a great pity that the voice of this country cannot be heard from our own station in many parts of the world. It would be something worth while, worth achieving and making sacrifices for, if we could procure the necessary finance for such a station.

Such a radio station would also serve the purpose of propagating our tourist attractions, which is a most important industry nowadays. Proper programmes over the air could do much to publicise the attractions of our country from the tourist point of view. More particularly, it would focus attention on the main political problem that remains to us. There are few better ways of creating an informed world opinion than through the medium of the radio.

I fully appreciate that this is not a very suitable time to talk of something which may entail the expenditure of a good deal of public money. At the same time, I merely ask the Minister to give this matter his sympathetic consideration, and even if he has to defer its implementation, that at least it should not be overlooked and forgotten.

Not merely as a Cork City Deputy do I welcome the new studios in Cork. I think they are a matter of satisfaction for the entire country and more particularly for the province of Munster. From what we have heard in the Minister's remarks, it seems that the conditions under which broadcasting is carried on, from the studios in the capital here in Dublin, are very primitive and not at all suitable. Certainly the studios in Cork City are most modern and more suitable and therefore the standard of broadcasting should be much improved.

There are some people in the country still who, unfortunately, on account of their age and way of life, we cannot expect to have with us for very much longer. It would be a great service if Radio Eireann would continue and increase their facilities for getting to those individuals and obtaining from them recordings of the knowledge which they have, because if it dies with them, we may never again have knowledge of it. I have in mind a few people in the southern part of the country who have a store of knowledge and lore and culture in the old tradition, and, if it died with them, it would be really a national loss. In the recent past especially, Radio Eireann has been very much alive in that sphere and I am hoping that it will continue to improve in this respect, especially now that there are new studios in Cork.

I hope the Minister will not allow himself to be completely submerged by the Minister for Finance and by financial considerations. I hope he will realise that at the present time the radio is an essential in the lives of the people. I wish him well in his term of office and I hope that, as he goes on, he will find his task made easier as his difficulties dissolve.

Mr. McQuillan

I notice that the Minister prefaced his remarks by saying that he was only a short time in charge of the Department. Consequently, I assume he is not going to accept criticism, at this stage, of his activities. That is fair enough, but at any rate I hope that the Minister, in going into the Department, had in mind certain lines of approach, certain convictions of his own which he would like, on examination of the situation, to put into effect within the Department at a later stage. I feel sure that, as a young man, he will brook no interference from the very conservative people he is bound to meet who are already in an established position.

The greater portion of the Minister's opening remarks dealt with Radio Eireann. In connection with various programmes we had on Radio Eireann, I would like to say that there are as many opinions about those programmes as there are Deputies in Dáil Éireann. I do not propose to criticise the programmes at all at this stage, because it is a waste of time, but I think many Deputies will support me in this plea to the Minister on the tremendous potential value which the radio can be in the matter of education. I am referring specifically now to the value it can be to schoolchildren. I cannot understand how so much time has elapsed without having suitable material prepared and broadcast to our national schools. The Minister would be doing a good day's work if he would inaugurate a new era in his Department in this connection. Consultation between himself and the Minister for Education is long overdue. Knowing the Minister as I do, I know he will not delay much longer in this regard.

The main point I want to speak about here is the possibility of producing as soon as possible a television programme controlled by this State or from within this State. In his prepared statement, the Minister made a reference to what has now become a hardy annual, the question of a television programme in Ireland. I believe that any improvements which will take place now in Radio Eireann, namely, any deficiencies which will be made up in regard to studios, buildings and so on, should not be allowed to progress or be implemented, unless, side by side with that, provision is made for television installation and equipment. It would be ridiculous to go ahead on a so-called advanced programme for Radio Eireann without making full provision for television broadcasts.

Since I came into this House eight years ago, the question of television has arisen each year. Each year, the demand has become stronger and more insistent than in the previous year. The argument put forward every time is that this is a poor country and could not afford television, that we must wait until it gets cheaper to operate, until we see what technical improvements take place in other countries and then apply them here. Now, what I have to say I will stand over, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle. I believe that a suitable television outfit for broadcasting can be brought into this country without any great imposition, as far as the financial end of it is concerned.

Even apart from that, I would be willing to support in this House legislation which would impose taxation for the purpose of introducing television. I would be willing to go into that division lobby at any time and support the Government on it, because its influence is tremendous at the present time in the world and its influence is going to bear very much on portion of this country at the present time.

Can we afford television? That is the question that the Department's advisers are posing every week of the year for themselves and for various Governments in office. That mentality reminds me of the people who asked years ago could we afford Aer Lingus. If, 20 years ago, we were to wait for jet propulsion before Aer Lingus would be established, we would be a long way off the beam to-day. We would not have such a highly successful State enterprise as Aer Lingus. If we waited for the diesel engine to be invented or to be made available before constructing our railways, we would look nice at the present time as far as our transport arrangements are concerned. If, before generating electricity to utilise our peat resources, we waited for 20 years until the advent of the atomic era, what condition would rural Ireland be in to-day?

The same argument applies to television. There should be no such thing as waiting until the time comes when things get a bit cheaper and perhaps we will get it for nothing. We will not get it cheaper in three years' time. The indications are that the burden will be progressively heavier as time goes on. Tremendous technical advances have been made in other countries and are available to us, but it is not from a technical aspect that I propose television. I should like to deal with it from the aspect of how we can pay for it and the type of programmes I think we should have.

Deputies may say to themselves that it is extraordinary to hear Deputy McQuillan advocating expenditure on what they consider a luxury item. I do not believe it is a luxury. Television is essential—perhaps even more essential than wireless. The question of payment can be met in many ways but the most desirable means of paying for it—and I have thought this for some considerable time—is for the Minister for Finance to utilise, to the utmost of his ability, the profits made by foreign film renters and companies in this State.

It is a well-known fact that the Irish people are the greatest race of cinemagoers in the civilised world. No other country has a greater proportion of its people attending the films so regularly. If we were serious in establishing television I would suggest that a reasonable reduction from that money would pay for television annually. I have estimates here, from various returns, which are as accurate as they can possibly be, that in a single year Irish filmgoers spend as much on pictures as would run a first-rate television service for ten years.

Ninety-nine per cent. of the films shown in all our cinemas come from either America or Britain; the 1 per cent. comes from the Continent. I do not even include the alleged films that are made in Ireland and showing Irishmen with shamrocks stuffed in their ears. These films portray an alien way of life. Nobody denies the tremendous influence that the cinema has on the mind of young and old alike. Many people suggest that one of the causes of emigration is the dissatisfaction and discontent caused amongst our young people through foreign films.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Has the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs any responsibility for films?

Mr. McQuillan

I am making a comparison to indicate the change which could be brought about by a transfer from the cinema to television. I hope I have your permission to elaborate slightly.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I feel the Deputy has elaborated sufficiently.

Mr. McQuillan

Foreign film moguls send the greatest trash into this country and they have the controlling interest in the majority of the cinemas here. They have a free hand. The Minister has a glorious opportunity of diverting that picture-going public to television. The longer we postpone television run by Irishmen, the longer the monopoly of the foreign film moguls will last here, and that is something which I think the majority of the Deputies do not wish to see continuing much longer.

If we do not take the necessary steps ourselves in Dublin and the surrounding areas, our people will get the full blast of influence from British television programmes. I do not for a moment suggest that television programmes from Britain are bad. There are excellent programmes being beamed from the British station. There are also programmes which I regard as undesirable, but I am not acting here in the role of censor. What I do criticise is the fact that these television programmes beamed from Britain portray solely the British mentality and way of life. They are not beamed to Ireland for the purpose of showing the Irish way of life, historical events, our customs, pastimes, or anything else. We have nothing in the television line to counteract the influence of British television. I do not wish to be taken as criticising British television because what is there is highly suitable for the British public. I am criticising it in so far as it affects Ireland. The time is ripe for us to compete in our own State with the influence exercised by British television. I have spoken on this matter very strongly before and I hope I do not have to keep on pressing it year after year.

The argument is put forward that the cost of establishing television would be outrageous. That is not true. Television could be started here with a maximum capital outlay of £100,000 and could be run on an expenditure of £60,000 to £80,000 per annum. I do not suggest that the programmes we have here should be the expensive type of show that the Americans and the British go in for. Some of their programmes cost a small fortune. There is no necessity for us to try to compete with them in that respect We could not afford to do so, but there is no reason why we could not have very good shows. The approach to television should be similar to that of Radio Eireann. At least 50 per cent. of the Radio Eireann programmes are recorded programmes. That is one of the reasons why the cost of running it is so economic. Surely 50 per cent. of the television programmes could be recorded too. We could take the cream of the British, French and American shows for reproduction here and we could exclude those programmes which come in ad lib under the British broad-casting and television system.

We should have no trouble in providing first-class programmes on athletics and news reels of events throughout the country. Mobile equipment would be very important in this respect. It could travel all over the country recording events of importance or interest; it could even travel down as far as Cork. G.A.A. matches—provided, of course, we had the permission of the Taoiseach, Deputy de Valera— would be of tremendous importance from a television point of view. Athletics generally are of considerable interest to all our people, young and old, and television in relation to such events would be of considerable value. Fees could be charged to the G.A.A., to the rugby people, to the soccer association, boxing associations and so forth. It has been established that television increases subsequent interest in events thereby ensuring a larger following in subsequent programmes.

I am not satisfied that this cost objection should be allowed to overrule the importance and advantage of television itself. I have spoken purely on the fringe of the more important aspects of it. I have referred to recorded programmes, news items and sporting events. Let there be no doubt about it, television is of vital importance from the point of view of education. I hope that the Minister, a young man, will take heed of my words of encouragement. I had intended to deal in some detail with the question of the film industry, but if you, Sir, suggest that this is not the proper occasion for that, I shall bow to your ruling.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister has no responsibility for films.

Mr. McQuillan

I would like to suggest to the Minister that he should inquire into the profits made by these people who are engaged in the film industry here and inquire, at the same time, into the profits taken out of this State by those who have no responsibility to this country for the trash they show in it. As things are, films come in here giving a British slant on Partition, on conditions in Africa and so forth.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I must rule the Deputy out of order again. This does not arise on this Estimate. The Deputy probably will get an opportunity of raising the points he wishes to make on some other Estimate.

Mr. McQuillan

I do not wish to discuss the matter except to say to the Minister that he has at his disposal here a certain weapon Instead of prohibiting the entry of these films into the country, I suggest they should be taxed and the money raised by taxation in that way will finance a television programme, a programme to give hope to the Irish people that this is not such a bad little country at all.

Micheál Cárthaigh

Is ar éigin atá aon chuid de Radio Eireann is moé a gcuirtear suim ann ná an nuaíocht i nGaeilge agus i m Béarla. I dtír bheag mar í seo is maith agus is tuisceanach mar a cuirtear an nuaíocht sin ar fáil dúinn agus tá moladh mór ag dul don bhfoireann a bhailionns agus a ullmhaionns an nuaíocht sin. Ní minic deifir ar an Eireannach leis an bhfocailín molta. Is iondual gur mó is fonn leis rud a cháineadh—bíodh an cáineadh sin tuilte nó ná bíodh. B'fhéidir nach bhfuil Radio Eireann gan locht, ach ní saineolaí mise maidir le lochtá nó a mhalairt. Bíonn tosach ag an nuaíocht i nGaeilge ar an nuaíocht i mBéarla, agus sin mar is cheart é a bheith.

Thar ceann muintir mo cheantair féin molaim go hárd an clár sin "Ceolta Tíre". Tá creidiúint mhór ag dul dóibh sin a bhionns páirteach ann, go hairid na daoine a réitíos an clár agus a chuireas i dtoll a chéile é agus, dar ndóigh, na ceoltóirí féin ó cheithre aird na hÉireann.

It was a very wise decision on the part of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs—I think it was Deputy Childers at the time—to hand over Radio Eireann to a Director under a Comhairle. The standard of the programmes has improved considerably since that decision was taken. If I have one fault to find with Radio Eireann it is that, when they hit upon a good programme, they keep on producing it until both the producers and the audience are worn out. Irrespective of whether that programme has a West Cork bias—as some of them have—now and again it would be no harm if Radio Eireann retired some of these programmes for resuscitation at a later date. These programmes provide us with a certain novelty at first in the West of Ireland but, with the passage of time, the novelty wears off and we get rather browned off.

I commend Radio Eireann for the excellence of their plays, both in Irish and in English. They are now a feature of Ireland's Sunday night and very much appreciated by the rural community. I would add my voice to that of Deputy McQuillan with regard to the children's programme. There is a certain time set aside in the primary schools during which the teacher is free to pick a subject. It would be a good idea if the radio authorities would select half an hour or an hour during the schoolday in order to beam a special programme to the children. There is, as I have said, a children's programme at the moment. I wonder how many children listen to it. It may be an excellent programme and I have heard some people praise it. There is one thing I do know: the children do not listen to it and, anyone who has had any experience of children, will tell you that their sole interest to-day as far as wireless is concerned is listening in to Radio Luxembourg and to Dan Dare, the Pilot of the Future.

Some of the sponsored programmes are very good, but I think that most of us resent the stupid pitter-patter that accompanies them. Oftentimes, when I hear some of this and some of the very amateurish compères on the sponsored programmes, I make a mental vow—I do not think I keep it—not to support the products those sponsors advertise or purport to advertise.

Whether or not we approve of Radio Eireann, we would all like to be able to listen to it. I come from one of the outer fringes referred to by the Minister in his opening speech. We can hear Radio Eireann in the West of Ireland, but I think the Minister should address himself to one problem. He should make it obligatory on all manufacturers of electrical appliances to have a suppressor installed on the appliances. That, I believe, is obligatory in England and other countries on the Continent. If you were living in a town where there are a large number of domestic appliances, such as refrigerators, washing machines and the rest, in neighbouring houses all about you and you tried to tune in on the day of a big match, whether it be the rugby match referred to by Deputy McQuillan or a big race, it is rather maddening to have to go out the country, if you are able, and ask some rural neighbour who has not benefited from rural electrification to allow you the use of his battery set. I would strongly advise the Minister, if he has power to do so, to introduce legislation making it obligatory upon all the manufacturers of electrical appliances in this country to make the suppressor a standard part of their manufactured goods.

Mr. Desmond

I fully agree with the last speaker in relation to what we can call the interference experienced particularly in the southern parts of the country where complaints are numerous in this respect. Lack of suppressors on industrial equipment is the difficulty. I know that during the period of office of the Minister's predecessor the matter was attended to and remedied when we reported these matters from the various districts. This problem must be tackled. It is very annoying and unsatisfactory for people, particularly when they want to hear some programme in which they are interested, to find that it is almost impossible to hear it. All of these people are shareholders in the radio service because each and every one of them must pay a licence fee before they can avail of the service. When the Minister has had an opportunity of examining the problem, he should investigate more fully the need for suppressors.

Deputy McQuillan concentrated upon television. I am more interested at the present moment in improving the standard of our ordinary radio system than in providing the necessary finances, even at this stage, for the provision of television. It is most important that we should try to improve the system already in operation. I think it is my duty to pay a special tribute to our announcers who have proved themselves to be excellent from the point of view of publicity. We hear a lot about the advantages of tourism and the necessity for tourist boards at present, but our announcers in general are not only a credit to themselves but to this country of ours.

A special tribute must be paid to all in charge of our hospitals programme which is broadcast every week. The only complaint I have is that we do not hear it often enough. I believe that arrangements could be made to provide an additional hour during the week for the hospitals programme, because in every part of the country, in hospitals or at home where there may be sick people, the hospitals programme is eagerly looked forward to. That is a tribute to all concerned with this programme.

With relation to the overall programmes, I am not so sure that I agree with the last speaker about the wonderful improvements since 1951 or 1952. It is true that there have been improvements. The Minister has been in charge of the Department for only a short period, but I hope that during the next 12 months, he will be in a position to put into operation some of the improvements we all wish for.

From the information that I pick up from time to time as a Deputy and as an ordinary citizen, I am afraid that there is a lot of cornering in the radio service. For instance, at times when a certain programme goes off the air—it may not be a great success—we find that within a week or two, there is a new programme with the same persons in it. I will be very charitable to them. I do not want to pass any remarks but there is a little too much of this. I am making it clear that there are certain persons appearing from one end of the year to the other in Radio Eireann on any type of programme they wish to be on.

In the period of office of the Fianna Fáil Government in 1951-1954 and during the period of office of the inter-Party Government in 1954-1957, there were many people clamouring for what I term the independence of Radio Eireann—the setting up of an organisation like the B.B.C. Let me say now what I said during the 1951-1954 period to a colleague of mine who was a Minister in an inter-Party Government. I am completely opposed, and will remain completely opposed, to any suggestion of an independent corporation for Radio Eireann. Let us examine the position as regards some other independent bodies. I know that I must keep within the ambit of the Estimate, and I will mention the names of only some of these bodies, Bord na Móna or the Land Commission. We know where the ordinary members of this House are placed when they ask the Minister a question in relation to any of these bodies. He will be told by the Minister to address his remarks to the chairman or secretary of the bodies concerned, as the Minister has nothing to do with the day to day duties of the bodies concerned.

Is that state of affairs to continue? Are some members suggesting that we now hand over to Radio Eireann the same power? I do not claim the Minister said that to-day, but in case this suggestion should again be resurrected, I want to make it clear to the members of this House who speak so loudly about the importance of democracy that the setting up of an independent corporation will automatically mean taking from the representatives of the people the power that should be theirs. That is one important feature, I consider, in relation to broadcasting.

Again, let us be very fair. We realise that Radio Eireann, or an independent corporation, would probably keep on an even keel, as it were, in relation to the overall outlook of the people of this country but who can prove that in the years to come the type of so-called advanced independent thought that can be found now in certain institutions in Dublin may not seep into the policy and the programmes of Radio Eireann? This organisation is the property of the State. It is administered by people under the responsibility of a Minister of State. I believe it is vitally essential that under no circumstances should our broadcasting system— despite its faults or limitations—be handed over to any independent body.

The other few points which I wish to make concern the overall policy of broadcasting itself and the types of programmes presented. A few months ago, there was a programme on Monday nights between 11.15 and 11.30. I am referring now to a time when the present Minister was not in office and, naturally, he cannot be held answerable for this and there is no question of complaint about him for it. In my opinion, that programme was as good a programme as was ever broadcast from Radio Eireann. I cannot remember the title of the programme now but it was in relation to old songs, and so forth. The broadcaster certainly knew his job well. Why was it that such an important programme was shoved back to a time as late as 11.15 p.m.? There are many old people in this country who would be delighted to hear a programme such as that, to hear again some of the songs which were popular in the days of their youth and which would remind them of pleasant days gone by. Why is it that such old people would either be denied the advantage of hearing the programme at all or else of having to wait up until a late hour in order to hear it? It all goes back to the point I made at the outset, namely, the problem of personnel and the arrangement of some programmes on our broadcasting system.

I appreciate the Minister's difficulty in having to listen to complaints now when he has not had a full opportunity, probably, of attending to all the various problems which have been put before him in his Department. The radio programmes, such as they are, are improving: let us give credit where credit is due. It is essential that they remain under the same control as they are under at present. We know the difficulties which will face us if there should be a change. I except that the Minister will examine the question why it is that, even with a change of programme, there is not a change of personnel. It is more important to concentrate on providing the best programmes possible rather than to embark on something that some people only may wish for. It is all very fine to wish, for instance, for a television service but the people in rural Ireland would be quite satisfied if the present broadcasting system could not alone be continued in operation but even improved.

It would be of considerable benefit to the people in the south and south-western areas if the Minister would give his attention to the problem of interference. These people are share-holders in the broadcasting service because of the money they spend on the wireless licence. When the Minister returns to this House in 12 months' time we shall be able to give him credit for those matters to which he has attended and for his activities in his Department or we shall be entitled to criticise him for neglecting to take action in matters which, in our view, require his attention.

Mr. J. Brennan

All of us must necessarily be rather diffident in speaking on this vote annually because we are well aware that, no matter what programme is presented on the radio, it will please some and not please others. Some of us would like more traditional music, others more ragtime and others still would like more highbrow programmes, as one Deputy said. There may even now be fans for Rock 'n Roll.

On the whole, I think we can look back on the year as a pretty successful one from a broadcasting point of view and, by and large, they gave everybody something to his taste. I do not think we are likely to effect much change by advocating any particular type of programme, but I am rather inclined to agree with the last speaker that we sometimes get tired of the same personnel appearing in different programmes time out of number, however good or efficient they may be as broadcasters and no matter how suitable their talents may be for broadcasting.

Those of us who come from the provinces feel that the rates being paid to artists are not sufficient to warrant more talent from the provinces on our broadcasting programmes. There have been complaints that if good singers, for instance, travel to Dublin to make a broadcast they find that it takes only a matter of minutes to have the programme recorded in the studio and that the fee received would not compensate them for the cost of travelling to Dublin and hotel and other expenses. Consequently, we must expect a preponderance of Dublin artists in all the programmes. Many people who, in the ordinary way, might like to come forward to broadcast and many people who are widely accepted as very fine artists and whom it would be very desirable to have on our radio programmes will not seek either the time or the opportunity to be included. Of course, now that new studios have been opened in Cork, we may expect a Cork bias occasionally.

Mr. Corish

You mean a greater Cork bias.

Mr. J. Brennan

I hope the Minister will not permit too much of a Cork bias, however much we may like the Cork accent. I hope the Minister will examine the possibility of providing, even by means of the mobile recording unit or the tape recording system, suitable opportunities for provincial artists. I have in mind, in particular, traditional musicians, violinists, vocalists, and others, who would not ordinary have the opportunity of coming to Dublin to broadcast, so that our listening public would have the privilege of hearing them.

I do not agree with Deputy Desmond that we should forget about television and proceed, instead, to improve our radio programmes. Unless we make some provision for a television service, we shall find ourselves high and dry. More and more television aerials are to be seen in this country, which testify to the growing number of people who purchase sets here. There are very few television programmes with an Irish slant. Occasionally a piece of news of topical interest is given or there may be a flash of an international match which is of interest. Otherwise, the programmes presented are entirely foreign. Our people are going in for them.

We cannot adopt the attitude that we will ignore the trend towards television and carry on without it. We shall have to have it at some future date no matter how the funds are to be found. The Minister said he did not entirely approve of handing over such an important public service to private enterprise. I would ask him to examine the possibility more carefully of finding some private enterprise which might undertake a television service here. It would lift a great responsibility from the shoulders of the State if the service were put in the charge of a proper institution which we could be sure would give our people the service they desire with, perhaps, the Minister having the right of veto over the programmes intended to be presented.

Deputy McQuillan suggested taking money from the cinemas here. He did not explain how exactly he would find the money in that direction, whether by taxing that form of entertainment further, or by the exclusion of these films, thus making the money available for T.V. I did not understand how he proposed to do that, but I do not think the thousands of people, especially middle-class and poorer people, who go to see a good film frequently, particularly in winter-time—it is the cheapest form of entertainment, offering comfortable seats on a cold night—would think that a £100 television set would be a proper substitute for these cinema shows. I do not think that suggestion would win favour generally or meet the wishes of the people, but I think the Minister should examine the possibility of finding private enterprise which will take the necessary interest in sponsoring T.V. It has to be done somehow; otherwise, we will find ourselves in the position that we will have T.V. viewers rather than Radio Eireann listeners. Then we shall have to be content with allowing the people to see foreign programmes since we have nothing to provide for their tastes at home.

There is not much more one might say at this stage. The Minister has paid fitting tribute to the efforts of his predecessor in so far as he said that the past year was one which was generally satisfactory. Sponsored programmes, however they may be criticised, are creating a great interest among the listening public and are particularly useful for the people who are destined to remain in the house —housewives and housekeepers—and those who are confined through ill-health to their homes. They enjoy sponsored programmes which, during the greater part of the day, are the only programmes they have. Many people even make an effort to be home at the appropriate time to hear the latest episode in "The Kennedys of Castleross". Others are more interested in the Cork cheese-making programme——

Mr. Corish

Is this a sponsored programme?

Mr. J. Brennan

——but with one or the other, sponsored programmes are generally satisfactory, and if the tastes of the people are not being catered for in the programmes presented by Radio Eireann, those who are sponsoring these programmes are giving sufficient variety to meet the tastes of everybody.

The request programme is probably taken—it is in England, anyhow—as the best means of ascertaining what the public want and I am afraid that if we take the consensus of opinion as shown by the requests sent in from listeners here, we would be driven to only one conclusion. The number of requests for national or traditional music is very small and would not indicate that there is any general demand for it. Other people content themselves by saying the requests are sent in by only a certain section of the people and that those with any serious interest in music do not, as a rule, make requests at all.

I do not know what is the true position, but I understand that in England and other countries the request programme is taken as a true indication of what the public want, either as radio listeners or T.V. viewers.

I think the Minister will have a pretty difficult time ahead if he has to make a decision with regard to T.V. It is one of the big problems likely to confront him in his term of office and I have no doubt he will find a way out. I will stress what I said at the beginning; incurring the huge expenditure necessary to finance T.V. here would hardly be a wise undertaking in present circumstances. I doubt if it would meet the public approval, but I believe that it is possible to have T.V. initiated here by private enterprise, and however inadvisable some people may think it is—and the Minister voiced his doubts in that respect in his opening speech—I think it is well worth examining, as it would relieve the taxpayers of the burden which inevitably will have to be borne, as we must have T.V. sooner or later in Ireland.

Mr. Blaney

I am glad to have heard so many views expressed here to-day which coincide with my own views in relation to many matters—some of them of great importance and others not so important. Generally speaking, I do not take issue very much with any of the things said by the various speakers on either side of the House.

Deputy Healy, the first speaker, had something to say in regard to the lack of coverage that our present transmitting service occasions throughout the country. He mentioned West Cork, as a good Corkman should, and there are also Kerry, Wexford and Donegal and parts of other counties, little pockets here and there, where the service is anything but good and, in fact, where sometimes there is no service at all.

That brings me to a number of matters which I have been considering since I came into office. It seems to me there are three very important things that have to be done, if possible. The Irst, I think, is that we must try to improve, as Deputy Desmond said, our present sound broadcasting system for the people at home, as a first step in the right direction. That will entail considerable cost and the question arises, even if we have the money, as to how we are to improve the coverage, whether by V.H.F. or by increased volume or output from the present station on its existing wavelength. That will again raise some further difficulties which can be dealt with only by our experts and technicians, if and when the time comes when the money is available to enable a decision to be made one way or the other.

The question of trying to utilise sound broadcasting to get across to our people abroad and indeed to the people of other lands was also mentioned. Candidly, I have not got as far as thinking along the lines of giving what I think only a short-wave station could give. That matter was examined already, but it never really went ahead, although much progress was made. I doubt if, at the moment, there is much we can do to get worldwide coverage, as it were, from an Irish station.

One thing that should be done, if it is possible—I do not know what the position really is—is that, since we have to-day, I would say, more Irish people or people of Irish extraction in Great Britain than we have here at home it is essential that we should "get across" to those people through our State broadcasting system. While it is possible to-day to get reception in some parts of Britain from our present transmitter, it is not at all a general happening. Therefore, I have been thinking in terms of trying to see what can be done to improve our listening service at home; secondly, trying to get our programmes to our Irish people in Great Britain; and thirdly, which will probably be the biggest, most difficult and most costly of all, trying to get around to providing a T.V. service for our own people in Ireland.

Any one of those things, if it could be accomplished or even started, would be quite a step ahead for Radio Eireann. Whether or not any one of the three can be undertaken within the next 12 months is a matter that I am not too sure about. Undoubtedly, the big problem in regard to all three at the moment is the provision of money. I disagree with Deputy McQuillan in the figures he quoted here to-day. If the Deputy can get me proof that a T.V. service can be provided for a figure of £100,000 and that the station can be serviced for £80,000 annually, and if the Deputy provides full proof of that for the House, not only the Minister but the House will adopt it in double quick time. Unless that proof is forthcoming, it is wrong to hold out to the people the idea that it is just as easy as all that. My opinion is that it is much more difficult and much more costly. The greatest liability will be in the provision of programmes rather than the provision of the transmitting service. The transmitting service would be an initial cost, which could be got over in due time, but the recurring annual cost of providing the programmes will give us the greatest headache financially.

There seems to be an idea that commercial interests, possibly, should be given a monopoly in this matter, if we cannot provide a service ourselves. This aspect of the question has engaged the attention of every Minister since T.V. was first mooted in this country. My predecessors, in all cases, have agreed with the line already adopted, that was, that we could not allow such an important service to be given to a commercial outside interest over which we did not have fairly stiff control. I can see the weight of that argument and at the moment am inclined to agree with my predecessors that we cannot give to any commercial concern the sole right of a television service over which the Government could not have any control or supervision. It may well be that there are people who can bring forward arguments to convince myself and others who hold the view that commercial T.V. is not just the answer that such a thing is possible and that the Government need have no fear, but as of the moment I am afraid I cannot visualise that taking place.

I should like to assure the House, in regard to the question of T.V., that the committee set up in 1953 to go into this matter has not been idle. Various suggestions and proposals have been made to them by interested groups and even in the short time since I have gone to the Department, very elaborate proposals have been made by a group which are now being considered by the committee in conjunction with proposals already received. I have recently indicated to the committee that, having the benefit of a number of proposals from various quarters over the past three or four years and knowing the objections that have been found to all of them so far, it might be possible at this stage to draw up the specification under which we would accept a marriage of commercial interests and State interests in the provision of a T.V. service and, having drawn up that specification, we could give it as a hand-out to all outside interested parties who, in their turn, within the framework of that specification, could give us what they had to offer in the terms outlined. That may not give us a result but it is worth trying. I know that the Television Committee are working along those lines and are as anxious as I am, and perhaps even more so, to find a solution to this problem.

As has been stated here, television is a "must" for the future in this country. I, personally, am of that opinion. We are in the position, particularly in County Donegal and other border counties, that television is becoming an accepted service. At present all the programmes come from stations outside our control and all those programmes, good though they may be from the point of view of the people sponsoring them, are flavoured in a way that is not good for the culture of the people of this land. Deputies have indicated that we must have television in the future. I agree that it seems that it is a "must", but we cannot get away from the cost and if a proposal to provide a television service were made in this House and if it would cost the taxpayer a large sum of money, I am afraid neither I nor the Government would get away very lightly and would have few supporters if we were to put another blister on the backs of the taxpayer to provide a television service which, ordinarily, could be regarded as a luxury service.

Nevertheless, this matter is being examined and will be considered very thoroughly in the very near future. In the meantime, I hope to achieve finality in regard to the other two matters of immediate interest and about which we may be able to do something in the near future, namely, the provision of a better service at home and the possibility of making it possible for our people in Great Britain to receive our programmes.

Deputy Carty suggested that it should be made compulsory on manufacturers to fit suppressors on electrical equipment. Coming from a county that is rather far from Radio Eireann, I agree with the Deputy that something should be done. His suggestion is very mild compared with what I should like to suggest at times when I am trying to get a programme in which I am interested and some electrical gadget not far away is started up without a suppressor. However, that is not just the point.

The point is, that Radio Eireann, as I understand it, has a staff which travels around the country and which will fit suppressors to these electrical appliances which may be causing trouble. They will supply them at cost price and charge nothing for the fitting. That is a service given by the Department at the moment and a service which I would commend strongly to everyone in the country in an effort to help listeners to get the service which is now being transmitted by Radio Eireann. Compulsion is never a pleasant matter and would be rather difficult in this matter. It might involve us in having to employ a greater number of inspectors and giving them the power to invade private houses in order to make sure that there was a suppressor on any electrical appliance which people might have in their houses. I do not think that would be a nice thing to do and I think a voluntary effort would be better. I suggest that any publicity which Deputies can give to this in their own neighbourhood should be given, so that interference can be cut down to a minimum.

Before concluding, I think I should, on behalf of the staff of Radio Eireann, thank Deputies for the nice things they said about them and say on their behalf that these remarks are appreciated very much. Being in a service that cannot satisfy everybody all the time, I am sure they get many more messages of criticism than of tribute.

There was also the complaint made about Radio Eireann—I think by Deputy Desmond, who must be one of those people who like to go to bed early—that a good programme was relayed after 11 p.m. on Monday nights and that that was much too late for our people. I think that any decent programme should be kept until after 11 p.m. so that we can listen to it when we get home, if we get home at that time at all. It is possible that my own views and those of Deputy Desmond's are widely apart, but until I hear others complaining about this, I do not think we should cease to put on a decent programme after 11 p.m. The aim of Radio Eireann will be to try to give a decent programme at all times and those who can only hear the programmes after 11 p.m. should be entitled to that relaxation.

Mr. Corish

I think Deputy Desmond's point was that that programme was more suited for elderly people.

Mr. Blaney

I do not think that should interfere with elderly people either, unless they are bedridden. In my part of the country, people do not go to bed early. I will certainly look into the matter. I may have misunderstood Deputy Desmond, but I do not think so. Deputy Brennan has spoken about giving provincial artists a chance and said that under the present system of payment a provincial artist who has travelled up to the city and travelled back will not have sufficient to pay for a packet of cigarettes the next day. I do not know if that is so, but I will have the matter looked into, and if there is anything we can do to bring the provincial artists to Radio Eireann, it will be done, if it is possible from the financial point of view.

I should also refer to another matter which was mentioned in regard to the question of hearing the same person on several different programmes. When a programme concludes and goes off the air, the next night one hears the person who was on the previous programme on the air again under a new guise. That is noticeable and it is something which I have noticed myself for some considerable time. It has been remarked upon to me even in the past few weeks since I became Minister. There is one argument that officially seems to be very sound, that is, that good artists are not just so plentiful that there are sufficient of them at the disposal of Radio Eireann to go around the various programmes on the different nights at the different seasons of the year. That may be the real reason for this, but candidly I put a question mark after that explanation myself and it is a matter about which I want to try to get some further information. If the Deputy who raised the matter wants to know more about it, I am sure he will avail of his privileges to obtain the information.

Mr. Corish

Too many "Joes".

Mr. Blaney

In regard to other matters which may have been mentioned, if I have failed to give Deputies the information which they sought, it is purely because I have overlooked them and if they want information I shall be only too glad to supply it. If they have any suggestions of a nature that would commend them to a common-sense approach to television, V.H.F. or an improvement of our transmission service as we now know it on the medium wave band, I shall be delighted to have them gone into by our experts in the Department.

Vote put and agreed to.