Committee on Finance. - Vote 8—Office of Public Works (Resumed). – Dáil Éireann (16th Dáil) – Tuesday, 26 May 1959

Committee on Finance. - Vote 8—Office of Public Works (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:—

That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration—(Deputy T. Lynch.)

Mr. T. Lynch

In my opening remarks on Thursday last I pointed out that I had not got a copy of the Parliamentary Secretary's introductory statement on this Estimate. I want to say now that after the House adjourned I was approached by one of the Parliamentary Secretary's officers and he supplied me with a copy of the speech. I am exceedingly grateful to the Parliamentary Secretary for his courtesy and I wish to express my deep appreciation.

When I moved to report progress I was saying that we should put our own house in order and I referred to Leinster House. When you enter the courtyard—I do not think this applies to you, Sir, but only to ordinary Deputies who have to park their cars nearer the gate—if it is a wet day you have to wade up to the House through pools of water and if it is a wet night, well, may God help you.

Mr. Donnellan

Arterial drainage.

Mr. T. Lynch

I just mention this because I think when it is mentioned to the Parliamentary Secretary it will be attended to. My information is that the reason was that there were two contractors brought in to do the courtyard and evidently it was a case of too many cooks spoiling the broth, or of putting too much water in it. In any case, I speak not only for myself but for practically all Deputies when I say that I think this matter should be attended to as quickly as possible.

When finishing on Thursday I was speaking about the Kilbarryo Bog in Waterford and about the estimates for arterial drainage and, as I mentioned, they are colossal. I think they are colossal because we do not get any of them in the eastern counties.

Mr. Donnellan

You do not need them.

An Ceann Comhairle

Order. Deputy Lynch.

Mr. T. Lynch

But we do need them and that is what I want to show. Near the city where I was reared there was an enormous bog. It was always going to be drained, or something done about it, but nothing ever seems to have been done about it. When you speak in terms of hundreds of thousands of pounds for something in County Waterford it is said that it is far and away too much money altogether. I put it to the Parliamentary Secretary that it is not far too much money. It is a small sum of money in comparison with the Estimates where they run into millions in other parts of the country.

I should like the Parliamentary Secretary to meet me at some future date—I shall write to him and he can arrange it through his officials—to tell us what the local authorities in Waterford should do to draw his Department's attention to this matter and to see if we could have an arterial drainage scheme to drain these bogs and deepen the Saint John's River which flows into the Suir.

The other matter I mentioned was the foreshore at Tramore. This should be attended to immediately. I hope that the same thing will not happen here as happened in Rosslare. For years the Wexford Deputies were complaining, but nothing was done until the sea burst into the town. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to pay particular attention to these two matters.

The development of fishery harbours has been a mystery to me. Who decides where the money is to be spent? Is the money spent in places where it is necessary to give work and is the fact that the pier is used for fishing taken into account at all? I am inclined to think that it is not. If it were, the provision for Dunmore East would be the biggest of all. Most fish are caught there but the provision for Dunmore East is not anything like the biggest. There is a magnificent pier there but it is always very difficult to get anything done. Yet I have seen great installations erected in places where there are no fish to be caught at all. There is much in what the previous Parliamentary Secretary said, that fishes do not vote.

I would again draw the Parliamentary Secretary's attention to Dunmore East. Some people say it just happens that the fish run down there. I do not believe that. I believe the reason the fishing is good there is that a few years ago a number of Dunmore East men bought boats of their own and started fishing there again. I know this has nothing to do with the present Vote, but it shows the trend. Out of 80 boats allocated by the State, we got two.

There is an increase of £120,000 under sub-head J.2 in respect of arterial drainage construction works. A sum of £12,000 is included for the Bunratty-Rineanna embankment scheme, which work is proceeding. But there are banks on the rivers in the East of Ireland too. I am a little bit innocent about this. I want to know why——

Mr. Donnellan

If the Deputy sits down, I shall tell him.

Mr. T. Lynch

Maybe the Deputy has put something into my head? Would it be that the Parliamentary Secretary and his predecessor and, God rest him, the Parliamentary Secretary before him all happened to come from a particular part of the country?

Mr. Donnellan

That is not so.

An Ceann Comhairle

Only one Deputy may speak at a time.

Mr. T. Lynch

We have embankments too and several of my constituents have come to me about them. But there does not seem to be any fairy godmother up here to do anything about the embankments on the River Suir. There is a very large increase here for the purchase and maintenance of engineering plant, machinery and stores. That is all to the good. But again I must say that the sum, considered very large at the time, for the drainage of Kilbarryo was estimated before such plant and machinery and techniques were common here. I am sure there would be a much reduced estimate for the work to-day.

When speaking to a Vote I always make it a point to give credit where I think credit should be given. Whoever is in charge of the restoration, or should I say preservation, of our ancient monuments is to be complimented. He must be dedicated to his work. I have seen a good deal of it around the country; magnificent work is being done by the officials and engineers dealing with this. I should like to pay tribute to them.

There is another matter I do not think has been mentioned heretofore— the provision of furniture, fittings and so on. We need not be ashamed of the manner in which the person responsible is carrying out this work. The furniture seems to have been bought with discretion. It is the right kind of furniture and is placed in various Government buildings with great taste.

It is good that the Vote for schools has been increased. There is always a great demand for schools. I do not suppose this Department has anything to do with the question of where schools are built. Schools are being built in places where there are no pupils, and in places where there is overcrowding of pupils the schools are on the long list. I had a question down today to know how much was given to Waterford city in unemployment grants by the Department of Finance. The Parliamentary Secretary replied that in 1938 the amount was £19,000 and in 1958 it was £8,000.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is Vote No. 10.

Mr. T. Lynch

I am sorry, sir. On the question of schools, the matter of sites should be reviewed and places with large populations, where the schools cannot cope with the number of pupils, should be given priority.

There is something I forgot when talking about putting our own house in order. Some attention should be paid to the heating and ventilation of this House. Sometimes we are baked here——

A Deputy

Hot air!

Mr. T. Lynch

I was waiting for that crack. Sometimes we could do with some of it here. I have often been here when conditions have been such that although they might have been good enough for Deputies, if they were in a factory or office they would be condemned by the factory inspector. We have legislated to ensure that proper accommodation is provided in offices and factories and that they are properly ventilated and heated. If a factory inspector were brought to Leinster House he would not pass the conditions; he would ask that the House be adjourned. I do not know who would be prosecuted or against whom he would proceed. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to make an enquiry into the matter. I have been told that the system of heating here is obsolete. I may be wrong, but I should like to have the matter investigated.

When the fishing season is at its height, an enormous number of trawlers come into the port of Waterford and there is serious overcrowding. Dunmore is a big port but it is often crowded out. Complaints have been made about the river in Duncannon, that they cannot get it properly dredged. That also applies to Passage and Cheekpoint. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to look into the matter.

I shall send the Parliamentary Secretary a letter and ask him to meet me and to give me some guidance as to how a local authority in the East can make representations to himself and his officers so that an arterial drainage plant can be provided for Kilbarryo in Waterford and a grant given for work on the foreshore in Tramore so as to ensure that what remains of it will not be carried away.

Mr. Donnellan

I would ruin my speech if I were to follow Deputy Lynch at this stage. I shall refer to his speech later. We deal here with Votes 8 and 9. I thank the Parliamentary Secretary for having supplied me with a copy of his speech. I did not anticipate that the Vote would be taken last Thursday and, although I was in town, I was not in the House. Vote 8 deals with offices and staff. Perhaps the Ceann Comhairle will allow me to say that on the occasion of last year's Estimate I commenced on a rather sad note by referring to the deaths of the then Parliamentary Secretary and of the retired chairman of the Board of Works. To-day I have also to sound a sad note by referring to the death of Commissioner Fagan. He was a long time in the Office of Public Works and was a good Commissioner and later became chairman. He retired under the age limit. Everybody in this House and in the Office of Public Works will join with me in praying that the Lord may have mercy on his soul.

The late Mr. Diarmuid O'Hegarty, the late Mr. Fagan and Mr. Morris, now retired, were in the Office of Public Works when I was there for over six years. They were good Commissioners. They worked well. They had a very thankless job. They worked sincerely. It is to be regretted that two of them have passed away. May we hope that Mr. Morris, who is retired, will have many long years of well-earned rest after his hard work.

I offer my congratulations to the present Chairman. I have not the slightest doubt of his ability to fill the office. I may have been misunderstood last year when I referred to promotion from the office. There was nothing personal against the present Chairman, an assurance I am sure he accepts. We never met. I wish him very well and many happy years there. I would just say to him that he will be a good man if he fills the gap as well and follows in the footsteps of his two predecessors, Diarmuid O'Hegarty and Mr. Fagan. I wish the present Chairman well and assure him that anything I said last year was in no way personal. What I said last year referred to promotion from the office. I went to the Office of Public Works in 1948. It is one of the most responsible offices. I congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary for being in charge of such an office, not because he is a Galway man, as Deputy Lynch said, or anything like that. I felt that promotion should be from the office every time. Therefore, I am sure the present Chairman will not take it that there was anything personal in my view at that time. I hope my words last year were helpful.

I congratulate most sincerely the new Commissioners, Mr. Cullinane and Mr. Farrell. I knew them for years. I am delighted at their appointments. For many years they worked in the office. It is a good thing that the promotion is from the office. It is good from the point of view of junior officers that promotion is to continue to be from the office. I assure the Chairman, although there is no need for me to do so, that the two Commissioners are persons of wide experience, who have been in charge of divisions for many years. I hope the Chairman and the Commissioners will live and work as happily together as those who worked with me for six years. I have no doubt they will give the same loyal service to the present Parliamentary Secretary as their predecessors gave to me. Let me leave that point.

Did I ever think I would hear a Deputy say in this House that too much money had been spent on arterial drainage? I can forgive Deputy Lynch because he was not in this House in 1943 and neither was he here in 1944. I do not know what the conditions are in the area which Deputy Lynch represents but I do know that if Deputy Lynch lived in the west of Ireland, in Donegal or in Kerry in areas which are swamped out, I am quite sure he would not make the statement he has made.

When I first came into this House in 1943, one of the things which was foremost in my mind and in the mind of the Party of which I am a representative was arterial drainage. The Government of the day then was the same as today, Fianna Fáil. I was a representative of a group which were pressed that year to place arterial drainage above anything else. If the records are examined, it will be discovered that I was the first in this House to congratulate the Minister for Agriculture, then Parliamentary Secretary, for bringing in the Arterial Drainage Act of 1944.

I claimed that it was the best Act that ever came before this House, but I never thought—I may as well be honest about it—it would ever do the work it is doing today. I have personal experience of it. I can see it from my own door. I saw it in the Brosna in Leix-Offaly; I saw it in the Glyde and Dee in Louth and Monaghan; I saw it in the Feale catchment area in Kerry; and I see it at my own door in the Corrib catchment area.

Mr. Palmer

You do not see it in the Maine.

Mr. Donnellan

You do not want too many at a time.

Mr. Davern

Or the Suir.

Mr. Donnellan

It is the Deputy's job to look after that. He is on the Government side and he should pull the guts out of the Parliamentary Secretary as they were pulled out of me when I was in that position. I should like to make my own speech in my own way. Did I ever think that a Deputy would stand up in this House and actually say it is a waste of money and that this money should not be spent? In the Dáil in 1943 and in 1944, when the Act was passed, the unanimous view of Deputies was that there was a crying need for it. Now that it is in operation, may I pay a tribute to the Office of Public Works, their engineering staffs and the workers on all those schemes? It is a credit to them. It is something outstanding in this country of ours and something our people never expected would be done.

While it may be all right to play politics in this House—unfortunately I do not play them myself but the Deputies on the opposite side do—may I say that, no matter what Government comes or goes, the arterial drainage scheme is the greatest scheme in operation at the present time? It was the greatest Act passed through this House and the manner in which it is being operated by the Office of Public Works is a credit to them.

When people hear about the Corrib drainage scheme, the Moy or any other scheme, they just think it is the main river in that scheme which is being done but the House knows it is a catchment area. Very often, when the surveys are being carried out, you cannot expect an engineer, who probably has never been in the area before, to see everything. Goodness knows, he sees 99 per cent. of the things. I give him that much credit, but it is only when a scheme is in operation that it can be seen that a certain part has been neglected which should probably be in on that scheme.

It is very hard then for the Office of Public Works, when they have estimated a certain amount of money for a scheme, to put an addition to that scheme, because it will cost money. Naturally enough, if it goes much above the Estimate, they will be blamed in this House and blamed, perhaps, by the very Deputies who asked them to do the work. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary that in cases where certain small additions were overlooked, they should be put in the scheme and that they should get special consideration.

I had occasion to approach the Office of Public Works in connection with some of those cases. There were some cases where I would not approach the Board of Works because it was small thanks to the people concerned to carry out the little job they wanted carried out because it was possible for them to do it, but there are other cases where it is not possible for the tenants concerned to carry out a job. I would ask the Commissioners and the Parliamentary Secretary to give special consideration to those cases where the tenants themselves cannot possibly do the work, because, once it is passed over, it can never be done again.

A statement by the Parliamentary Secretary some time ago worried me very much. He said the Suck arterial drainage scheme cannot, and will not, be carried out until the Shannon has been done—I trust he will correct me if I am misquoting him. I would ask him to go over the files and think of the interest his predecessor, the late Deputy Beegan, took in that scheme, think of my interest in it and realise that when he says it cannot be done or considered until the Shannon has been done, it is just putting us off until Doomsday. I believe the Shannon will not be done in our time. There are people who say that if you drain more water into the Shannon from the Suck, it will cause more flooding in the Shannon. The same amount of water flows in there all the time. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to put that question to his engineering staff—how much extra water did the Brosna, when it was drained, drain into the Shannon? Absolutely none. When the Clare-Corrib is finished, not one extra gallon of water will it drain into the sea.

I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to reconsider the case of the Suck and not to be misled by the argument that it will increase flooding on the Shannon. It will not increase it one bit, once the drainage is done and the overflow comes in. As a matter of fact, less water comes along afterwards. I am delighted that the Maine scheme has started.

Mr. Palmer

It is about time for the Deputy to be delighted.

Mr. Donnellan

Galway people are accused of being selfish and if Galway has the Corrib drainage scheme, they are as much entitled to it in the west of Ireland—Galway, Roscommon and Mayo all come into it—as any county or province. They are even better entitled to it because, as has been proved, no river in Ireland was doing more flooding than the Corrib. When I was Parliamentary Secretary, it did not matter whether I came from Galway or Donegal, I felt as I do now— and I do not apologise to any Deputy for it—that the problems of Connacht and county Galway were entitled to consideration in one scheme at least before Kerry was entitled to two. We had a scheme which was third in order. Our machinery went down there and the only promise we could make Kerry —and it has been faithfully carried out—was that by the time the Feale was finished, the machinery would be transferred to the Maine. The Feale is about finished now and a great job has been done, but I am certain there is not much thanks for it. If I know them, it is more they will want. The machinery has been transferred and they are getting their second scheme in Kerry. I do not begrudge it to them; if I were there, I would give it to them; it was my promise and I thank the Parliamentary Secretary that it has been carried out.

Although Deputy T. Lynch condemned arterial drainage and said too much money was being spent on it, he wanted to start a scheme in his own area. He said he would see the Parliamentary Secretary about it and I have no doubt that he will. The Deputy must realise that arterial drainage is not a patchwork business, as it was for too long a time. As it is known now under the Act, it is a comprehensive scheme that has to be maintained by a contribution from the ratepayers in the counties where the scheme is carried out. To my mind, that is right—they should not want to have it every way for nothing—but while it is costing an enormous amount of money, it is very necessary and I wish twice as much money could be spent until such time as the job was finished.

Something should be done to ensure that the people who benefit at the expense of the taxpayers, those who own the land that is drained, will do the minor schemes required. Otherwise, quite a lot of money is wasted. Many people think that once the Maine river is drained, it will make good land of the area that was flooded for years and years. That is not the case. I hate compulsion, but I think the people should be compelled to open the minor drains and fertilise that land that has cost the general taxpayers so much, so that it may be put into production.

I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to put this point to the Government. I agree that nine out of the ten people concerned appreciate what is done and will look after the land that has been drained, but quite a few will be found here and there who will not do so. Some of them seem to think that a Government can, of course, drop money upon them like manna. That is not the position. I suggest to the Parliamentary Secretary that some scheme should be devised to compel these people whose lands have been drained to make the lands productive. I know from personal experience that land which has been subject to flooding for years on end, makes, when reclaimed, the best land that can be got.

I believe the Parliamentary Secretary and his officials are doing the very best they can. It is true that the Office of Public Works is expected to take the blame for the shortcomings of other Departments. To quote the late Chairman of the Office of Public Works, Mr. Diarmuid O'Hegarty, when I asked him on one occasion why we were blamed for everything: "Apparently in our Office we are the skivvies for every other Department." Those were his words.

I congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary and his officials on the progress made in relation to school buildings. I have a deep interest in school buildings but I never had much interest in national monuments. They were referred to by Deputy Lynch. Like arterial drainage, school building is not going quickly enough in my opinion. The Parliamentary Secretary said in his opening statement that it is proposed this year to spend £1,600,000 on schools. I hope that money will be spent. I do not believe that Deputy Lynch's statement that schools are being built in areas in which there are no children to fill them is correct. Certainly that was never my experience. Knowing the Office of Public Works, I know that not one halfpenny is spent without a thorough investigation into every aspect of the situation. I do not know how Deputy Lynch could make a statement like that. We all know the school manager comes into the picture. Sometimes he has a site. Sometimes he has not a site. Sometimes the site is not suitable. In addition to that, it is not always easy to suit the manager. But no schools are built anywhere except where urgent necessity demands they should be built. I have no hesitation, knowing the Office as I did for six years, in contradicting Deputy Lynch's statement.

I appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary to keep up the good work so far as arterial drainage is concerned. I ask him to have another look at the Suck scheme. I appeal to him not to be led astray by what some people may say as to worsening the Shannon flooding. The Brosna drainage did not affect the Shannon. Neither will the Suck drainage. Even though the scheme will be to the benefit of the west of Ireland, that should not prevent him having a look at it. Let him not think that because he is from the west of Ireland some people may be tempted to complain that everything he does is for the west. Everyone knows that is not the case.

I congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary on the Moy scheme. That is a scheme in which I have a deep interest. What do we find now? Certain fishery interests are complaining. In my opinion these interests should have been abolished long ago. Lady This and Lord That are complaining that the fisheries will be injured. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to have a look at the file and read all the clap-trap sent up to me when the Corrib scheme was about to commence. I would ask him to read all about the scenery and the aesthetic pleasure of looking at the salmon over the bridge in Galway. It was said all that would be ruined. It has been proved by the schemes that have been done that the fisheries were never better than they are now. Instead of looking at the fish over the bridge in Galway, the Parliamentary Secretary should look at the thousands of acres of land drained by that scheme —thousands of acres in Galway, Mayo and Roscommon. That land is much more valuable than are tourists looking at fish, or even catching them. The same can be said about the Brosna, the Glyde and the Dee. The same will be said about the Moy some day. I appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary —I know the appeal is really not necessary—not to let himself be led astray with the trash some people try to put across.

Mícheál MacCarthaigh

Dúirt an Rúnaí Parlaiminte gur mhol an Taoiseach dó nuair a cheap sé dá oifig é tús áite a thabhairt do thógáil agus d'fheabhsú na scol. Is léir ón ráiteas a thug an Rúnaí Parlaiminte dúinn gur chomhlíon sé an dualgas seo go fial, agus go bhfuil iarracht maith déanta aige leis an obair sin do chur chun críoch.

I must first of all congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary on the vigorous and sustained efforts made by him to provide new national schools in different parts of the country to replace the many eyesores which we have seen down through the years. It is particularly gratifying that, since 1948, a succession of Galwaymen have been prominently identified with that work. I congratulate him, his immediate predecessor, the late Deputy Beegan, and Deputy Donnellan. They are all Galwaymen and we are proud of them.

Mr. Donnellan

The Deputy will start a row in the House.

Mr. Carty

Deputy Donnellan should not have tried, as he did, to cover up the fact that they are all Galwaymen. We are proud of them.

I should like to advise the Parliamentary Secretary to direct the attention of his architects and engineers to developments with regard to school buildings in other countries. To my mind, many of the new schools that have been erected in this country have been based on a streotyped plan—two-teacher, three-teacher of four-teacher schools in all parts of the country— and they all look the same. They are variations on one theme. Plans are available of schools which have been erected on the Continent and in Britain and Scotland since the end of the war, where more care has been given to the provision of better lighting and more colourful surroundings for the children. Greater use has been made of glass, for example, and new colour schemes have been introduced. All those things are conducive to better conditions for the children and the teachers. If the Parliamentary Secretary would get his expert advisers to look into this matter and study the plans of continental and other schools which I have mentioned, they might be able to break away from those stereotyped plans as I think we should break away from them.

Another point I should like to deal with is that we often hear the Board of Works being criticised for passing shoddy and faulty work in connection with new national schools. That allegation, in my opinion, has been justified. I have seen schools which were erected eight, nine, 10 years ago, or less, the walls of which are showing cracks and in which the rate of deterioration has been hard to justify. I am pleased to state that in the past five or six years there has been a marked improvement in the quality of the work done under the auspices of the Board of Works. The supervision seems to have been better, anyway, and the rate of deterioration has been slowed down.

I would also ask the Parliamentary Secretary to deal stringently with those contractors who take two, three or four years to complete a school. Too much of that has been allowed. For example, in my own constituency, I know of a two-teacher school in Tír na nEascrach on which work was started four years ago. In fact, I addressed a question to the Parliamentary Secretary about that matter some time ago. The sum involved is £4,000 and a building like that should not take four years. The school has been lying idle there for over a year. When a school is not occupied and no use is being made of it, goes to the bad and this building is going to the bad. I know that the manager in this instance has been seriously perturbed by the dilatory attitude adopted by the Board of Works. In fact, it was brought to my notice that the Board gave sanction to a contractor who baled out about three years ago. At that time, he had been employed not as a contractor but as a sub-contractor. If a contractor does not complete a job in the normal period allowed for completion, the job should be taken away from him and given to somebody else to complete. People have complained to me that the school is standing there idle and the school which the children are attending is in a bad state of repair. The manager, for good reasons, has not been spending any money while the new school is idle. That, of course, is a scandalous state of affairs and should not be allowed.

I agree with Deputy Donnellan that great work has been done under the Arterial Drainage Acts. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary, if possible, to circulate some kind of statement to Deputies which would let them know the progress which has been made over the year on the different schemes. For example, on the Corrib drainage scheme, how much money has been spent? When is it expected that the scheme will be completed? What is the programme for the following year? What new drainage catchment areas are to be tackled? I know a survey was carried out some time ago on the Killimor catchment in my constituency. People there have asked me when is it likely that plans will be exhibited and work will commence. If the Parliamentary Secretary would circulate some information to us which would enable us to give that information to our constituents, it would be very helpful. As I say, the priority list should be public, and the information I mention should be readily available to Deputies and to the public.

There is another matter I should like to mention in connection with the Corrib drainage scheme. In the Gurteen area of my constituency, farmers have complained to me about the spoil that has been deposited on the river banks. I have seen it, and it is not a very sightly thing. There are big embankments of spoil and, if possible, the Board of Works should try to lower these high embankments of gravel and silt deposited there when excavators and bulldozers were at work. I know that a lot of good land has been thrown out of production by these embankments, and in many cases, they are dangerously steep and cattle have been drowned. It might be possible to do something about this problem when the work is in progress. When the work has stopped, it is difficult to have the machinery brought back to an area to carry out levelling work that should have been done when the scheme was in progress in the first instance.

Deputy Donnellan introduced a few novel notes in his contribution and one of them struck me as being very strange. He contended that no matter what amount of water was drained into the Shannon, the net result was the same. I wonder can that contention be substantiated in fact? We know that the Rydell Report advocated that work should be discontinued on the drainage of the Shannon tributaries until a full and comprehensive scheme was devised for the drainage of the Shannon itself. Apparently Deputy Donnellan does not agree with the Rydell report. He says that the drainage of the Brosna did not in any way affect the overall position as regards the Shannon, and did not cause any consequential flooding in the Shannon other than what already existed. That is a novel idea and it struck me that there might be some substance in it.

The Parliamentary Secretary stated that he would give whatever information as might appear from the discussion of Deputies to be necessary. That is a very helpful attitude to adopt and I think it is one that will be readily appreciated in this House. His Department deals with a lot of matters and, from experience, I know he has been very helpful to Deputies who went to him seeking information about various matters. He and his Department are to be congratulated on the vast amount of work they have carried out in the past year, and he is also to be congratulated, at a time like this when money is scarce, on securing an increased amount for such necessary work as arterial drainage and the provision of new national schools.

Mr. Palmer

I am glad that Deputy Carty referred to the idea put forward by Deputy Donnellan that even though the tributaries of the Shannon were drained, it would not mean that one extra gallon of water would put into the main river. That is a rather novel idea and I was rather surprised to hear it being put forward. As Deputy Carty says, if there is anything in it, then it is worth investigating, but I think that Deputy Donnellan's wish for haste in draining the Suck, in addition to the Brosna, would cause floods in Kerry, especially in North Kerry. In doing that, eventually the work done on the Feale would be destroyed and, consequently, I think it is a mistake to drain tributaries of a main river, and especially any tributary of the Shannon. I do not know how drainage of the Brosna has affected Shannon flooding, but certainly I do not think it would be advisable to drain any further tributaries.

I was not present at the time he spoke, but I understand that Deputy T. Lynch said that too much money was spent on arterial drainage. I believe that three rivers join together to flow into Waterford harbour, and perhaps Deputy T. Lynch is afraid that if drainage is carried out there, to any great extent, it would flood the city.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Palmer.

Mr. Palmer

Deputy Donnellan knows the kind of work the Board of Works have to carry out in connection with the building of schools and with the drainage of rivers. They are bound to get a certain amount of blame. It is the same with other Departments but other Departments depend on the Board of Works for carrying out various schemes. In connection with arterial drainage, I should like to say on behalf of the people of South and North Kerry, because it affects both constituencies, that they are happy that the drainage of the Maine is now about to commence. Machinery has already arrived there. We have been waiting for that for a long time and, were it not for the fact that three Parliamentary Secretaries came from the West, the Maine would be drained by now.

Mr. Donnellan

That is not correct.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Donnellan made his contribution and he should allow Deputy Palmer to say what he has to say.

Mr. Donnellan

Deputy Palmer knows it is not correct.

Mr. Palmer

We were always led to believe that the Maine came first on the list, but it was always put back. However, when at last a good thing comes, we are quite satisfied and will blame nobody now, but, as the Parliamentary Secretary knows, we have one grievance in connection with the plans put forward for the drainage of the Maine. One very important tributary, the Brown Flesk, has been omitted. He kindly received a deputation in connection with the matter and he promised that the whole question would be examined. The Brown Flesk is a tributary very near the source of the Maine and, as the drainage up to that point will take perhaps two or three years to carry out, we hope that within those years in which the Parliamentary Secretary will be in charge of the Board of Works, he will make up his mind to drain that tributary.

It is a rather difficult river to drain and I do not know what can be done about it. However, having regard to the efficiency of the Board of Works engineers, I am sure they will devise a suitable scheme so as to avoid dissatisfaction among the people there. Some of the most fertile land in Kerry is along the banks of the Brown Flesk as it is along the banks of the Maine, the principal river. I hope a scheme will be devised to drain that tributary in connection with the whole catchment area.

Again in connection with the Maine, although I suppose it would not be the duty of the Board of Works, there are some good salmon fishing pools and the people there make their living through mussels. There are mussel beds at Cromane very near the mouth of the Maine and the people are afraid that the drainage will interfere with the mussel beds and destroy their one and only industry. I trust the Board of Works, in conjunction with the Minister for Lands and Fisheries, will devise a scheme which will ensure that neither the salmon, other fishing nor the mussel beds will suffer any loss.

Good work has been done, especially since the end of the war in the erection of new schools and in the improvement and extension of old schools that would bear reconstruction. Deputy Carty referred to the type of plans for schools. I believe that, if anything, some of the schools erected are too elaborate. They are a credit to the Board of Works, to those who drew up the plans and to the contractors. However, in 40 or 50 years' time they may be obsolete so it might be better to build them in a less elaborate way.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That would be the responsibility of the Minister for Education.

Mr. Palmer

I suppose it would. Rural electrification has been extended to most areas and when new schools are being built or old schools being reconstructed they should be wired for the installation of electricity. I am not sure whether that would be in the plans or specifications but it is necessary not only for the lighting of schools where various bodies meet occasionally for cultural purposes, Irish classes and so on, but also for the heating of schools in case turf cannot be procured.

I do not think there is very much that could be said in criticism of the work of the Board of Works. There is provision in relation to coast erosion which applies principally to Rosslare. If the Board of Works deal with coast erosion I should like to remind them of a lovely village in Kerry, Waterville, known as the Brighton of the West. It is a great tourist centre for fishing, and so on, but in about 20 years' time it will be submerged by the sea. Recently we got the county council engineers to make an estimate of the cost and if the Board of Works are in any way responsible I hope it will be brought to their notice and that they will help us to prevent the destruction of this village.

Even though I jokingly said at the outset that it was unfortunate for us in certain areas that we had three Galway men in succession in charge of the Board of Works, I can say that any time we have approached any of them or any of the officials of the Board of Works we have always been received with the greatest courtesy. I should like to congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary, his engineers and other officials for the good work they are doing. We may criticise them but, realising they have a difficult task, we are grateful for any work they can do for us.

The Parliamentary Secretary comes from the West of Ireland. I feel sure he has too good a grasp of the situation to be deflected easily by other interests. I do not blame the fisheries people for making their case. It is only fair that if justice is to be got in any court in the world a person should have the right to make his case. I speak on behalf of the farmers whom we have with us all the time. The flooding of small holdings has been responsible for the fact that many of them have been closed up and families have left.

It is essential to speed up the drainage of the Moy and other places, too. A huge area is involved extending over Mayo, Sligo and Roscommon. It is the best way in which money can be spent. Any Deputy who argues that too much money is being spent on arterial drainage clearly shows that he knows nothing whatever about the problems of many farmers in various parts of the country. If a Deputy made such a statement he probably thought that what he was saying was true but in my view it shows a deplorable lack of knowledge of conditions in many parts of the country.

In their efforts to cope with arterial drainage, the Office of Public Works have one natural obstacle against them, namely the shape of our country. Ireland has very often been likened in physical contour to a saucer or a plate. There is a rim of mountains which encloses a plain.

Mr. Corish

We would be in a bad way if we had not the mountains.

Mr. Blowick

It is a disadvantage to the farmers. It has created the problem which has made arterial drainage necessary. The work on this problem has clearly demonstrated that the engineers in the Office of Public Works deserve great credit. I remember when the famous Tennessee Valley scheme was under way in the United States. Everybody thought that it would take a vast country with vast resources such as the United States to tackle such a problem and that the Irish could not attempt anything like it. From what I have seen of arterial drainage schemes in this country, I am convinced that we have excellent engineers who know their business to a nicety and are not afraid to tackle big problems. The jobs one sees on the road from Tuam to Galway and also the one at Tullamore are Herculean.

Why has the Parliamentary Secretary dropped the river Suck? This matter has been raised by several Deputies. The argument that it would cause excessive flooding on the Shannon does not carry sufficient weight. Deputy Donnellan pointed out that the drainage of the Suck would not add a single drop to the effect of rainfall in the Suck area. The Parliamentary Secretary may argue that it will release water more quickly into the Shannon but I do not think it will. In the first place, if the Parliamentary Secretary really thinks that that is so, then it means that the Brosna has acted and behaved differently since it was cleaned. Secondly, it means that the farmers who were flooded all along by the Suck—they are a huge number—must put up with the flooding simply because their land is needed as a sponge or blanket to soak up and release gradually the rainfall in slow quantities so as not to flood the Shannon. I do not think that that would happen. It will not interfere with or alter the effect of the rainfall to any appreciable extent. The only argument is that it will allow the rain to drain off more quickly than is now the case. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to reconsider his pretty violent decision not to have anything to do with it.

On the 22nd April last I asked the Minister for Finance,

"... if he is aware of the inequity of the present system of placing the responsibility for, and cost of maintenance of arterial drainage on ratepayers; and if he will introduce amending legislation to make maintenance a national charge on the Exchequer."

The Parliamentary Secretary replied:

"The full cost of the construction of drainage works is borne on State funds and I do not agree that there is any inequity in requiring that the cost of maintenance of the completed works should be a local charge. It is not proposed to introduce amending legislation in the matter."

As a result of a supplementary question by me, the Parliamentary Secretary seemed to think I meant something different from the question I put to him in the original Parliamentary Question. I do not think the Parliamentary Secretary could really mistake what I meant. I avail of this occasion to explain the point which I do not seem to have been able to convey to him at Question Time on the 22nd April.

Mr. Bartley

That is quite uncalled for.

Mr. Blowick

I shall explain how the Parliamentary Secretary misunderstood me. At present, the cost of maintenance of arterial drainage is borne by the ratepayers. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to visualise a particular county or counties in which an arterial drainage scheme is carried out. In those counties which have arterial drainage schemes the matter can be a very vexed question. It can happen that in certain parts of the area the benefits are small. There is the further point that because there is only a small number of landholders in an area, the arterial drainage will not be carried out for perhaps 20, 30 or 40 years. The point I raised was that it is unfair and inequitable that portion of the ratepayers in a county who do not benefit from arterial drainage should contribute to the cost of the scheme in another part of the county. I was asking the Parliamentary Secretary would he consider making maintenance a national charge until all arterial drainage was done. I hope I have made myself clear on this occasion.

I want to state clearly that I agree that there is nothing inequitable in putting a charge on those who benefit from arterial drainage when all arterial drainage is done. Let us take any particular case. Let us take the case of the Corrib, the Feale in Kerry, or the Brosna which drains three counties. The ratepayers in many parts of those counties do not benefit by these schemes and they have arterial drainage problems of their own which will not be tackled for many years. I think the Parliamentary Secretary might consider the point I have raised, that it is unfair to ask the ratepayers to contribute until all arterial drainage or until the arterial drainage in a particular county, is done. I think that that is not an unfair demand to make.

The last thing I want to ask the Parliamentary Secretary is to give us, when he is replying, all possible data on the Moy. The people in my part of the country are very anxious that this work should be commenced as soon as possible. I know that it cannot be tackled overnight and that it will not be done merely by waving a magic wand. I know that it will take six or seven years to complete, or perhaps longer. The Board of Works will be doing a good job if the work can be done in that time. I am most anxious that the Parliamentary Secretary should give us all the data at his disposal when he is replying as I am very anxious to know what the position is.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Davern.

Mr. Corish

Might I, at this stage, make a protest? I do not want to disturb the summer peacefulness but I have already risen twice. Two Deputies were called from the Clann na Talmhan Party—two Deputies qualified to talk on this Vote—but the Labour Party has not yet had one speaker called and I have offered twice.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The fact is that no speaker from the Labour Party offered himself.

Mr. Corish

I have offered myself twice, once in the presence of the Ceann Comhairle and again before Deputy Blowick spoke.

Mr. Haughey

The Deputy has been absent from the House for about an hour.

Mr. Corish

That does not matter; I offered myself twice.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I think the Deputy is protesting too early. The debate has been in progress for under two hours.

Mr. Corish

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

In the provision of schools the Board of Works carry out instructions received from the Minister for Education, who is responsible in this matter.

Mr. Davern

Perhaps, in their wisdom, they might suggest to the Minister for Education that a playing field is now almost a necessity in our national schools?

I want to say a word about arterial drainage. In 1946, long before I had the privilege of being a member of this House, I felt that the Arterial Drainage Act was one of the finest the Fianna Fáil Government had the courage and foresight to put through. But I am disappointed at the snail's pace methods with which the Act is being implemented. I believe that with an effort we could reach much more speedily the position visualised in the Act. As Deputy Donnellan, Deputy Carty and other Deputies have said, this Act is one of the greatest factors in the progress of rural Ireland.

We are disappointed in the South that the speed with which the Act is being implemented is not what we should like it to be. The river Suir floods from Thurles down through Holycross, Cashel, Cahir and the prosperous industrial village of Ardfinnan. To think that that is happening without any real attempt being made to remedy it is beyond comprehension. The patience of the farmers is nearly exhausted. Their land, the finest land in the world, is being flooded and immense damage done.

It is 12 years ago since I had the honour of waiting on my friend, Deputy Donnellan. I shall not say he promised to do it in a week or a year, but his assurances were helpful and we were optimistic as to the results. But 12 years of flooding have since occurred and no real remedy has been provided. It is true that the last deputation to the Minister were assured that a survey of the river would take place in 1960. It is not a day too soon. Over 30 years ago we had what could be termed a preliminary survey of the river. But the river has carried on in its devastating manner year after year, flooding the village of Ardfinnan, the town of Clonmel and right down to Carrick-on-Suir. Lives have been lost and valuable property has suffered. The time has come now when a serious effort ought to be made to remedy that evil, which seems to increase yearly.

It is with disappointment that I speak of the drainage of the river Anner. The Anner was immortalised by Charles J. Kickham. Every Irishman worthy of the name will hope to perpetuate the memory of that great patriot, soldier and statesman. Among his many outpourings was the song, "She Lived Beside the Anner". I can assure the House, particularly the Parliamentary Secretary, that if she lived beside the Anner today, she would be drowned. The river Anner has flooded its banks, not for 100 yards but for miles, with unfortunate results for the farmers who live in that area from Mullinahone, the birthplace and resting place of Charles Kickham, right down to Loughcopple, the birthplace of some great Irishmen too.

I shall not put all the blame on the shoulders of the Board of Works because some splendid work has been carried out there. State money amounting to £6,000 was expended, along with a further £6,000 of local money provided by South Tipperary County Council. I understand it cost £900 to bring machinery there and take it back. That occurred on two occasions. The fact that the taxpayer's money was wasted in such a manner ought seriously to concern the people responsible. I should say that any businessman who would tolerate such a position, should have his head examined. The position now is that the land project has been in operation to the north of the village of Mullinahone and a number of the smaller rivers and streams have been cleaned. They are now flowing into the Anner and causing tremendous flooding in the area.

The Anner is the one river in South Tipperary that can be drained. The other rivers cannot be drained piecemeal and to carry out work on them would be contrary to the purposes of the Act. This one small river is causing immense damage to 54 small farmers, people who gave of their best in the past and who contributed to the freedom of this country in no small way. Those people are being victi-mised, and it is a disgrace that no real attempt is made to deal with the flooding of this river. The job that has been done is a splendid one, but it is of no use to the people still suffering, whose livestock have depreciated very considerably in value because of the negligence of somebody. Who that somebody is will have to be decided sometime in the near future. It cannot be allowed to go on.

It is very pleasing, indeed, to get the assurance of the Minister for Finance and the Parliamentary Secretary that the survey of the River Suir will take place in 1960. That is not a day too soon. The eyes of many of the principal bridges over the Suir were blocked, under military necessity, in 1920 and 1921. They are still blocked. I often thought that it should be the job of the Department of Defence to remove the obstructions which some of us caused at that time. It behoves the Board of Works to see to it that the bridges under which the River Suir passes are no longer blocked because of that military necessity of as long ago as 40 years.

I know I shall be told that the Board of Conservators objected to the drainage of the River Anner. That is perfectly true. What they knew about the fish in it, remains a mystery to me. I have not any great confidence in their national outlook. I have always thought that most of them were people with gouty toes because of eating too much fish.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We may not discuss the Board of Conservators on this Estimate.

Mr. Davern

Those people objected to the drainage of rivers at a period when drainage could have been carried out because, as they said, it would destroy the fishing. I would love to see our rivers as full as possible of fish and I believe the tourist industry, which is so very important, should be facilitated in every way but I am still of the opinion that the dairy farmers whose cows die of disease because of flooding in small rivers are more important to us. I hope that no more heed will be paid to these people called the Board of Conservators.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The matter does not arise on this Estimate.

Mr. Davern

May I respectfully say——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I must point out that the Parliamentary Secretary is not responsible for the decision of the Board of Conservators. The matter may not be discussed here.

Mr. Davern

The Parliamentary Secretary had to knuckle down and agree because these people did object to the drainage of rivers at certain periods. That is a matter of which the Parliamentary Secretary must take special note and see to it that nobody will interfere with arterial drainage or drainage of any kind in future. Drainage tends towards progress and increased production and I sincerely hope that every effort of the Board of Works will be focussed on more drainage of the rivers which they are entitled to drain as part of catchment areas under the Arterial Drainage Act.

Mr. Corish

I want to raise only two points and will do so very briefly. I trust the Parliamentary Secretary will find time to make some observations in his reply on the two points in question.

Two years ago, the former Parliamentary Secretary, the late Deputy Beegan, introduced a Supplementary Estimate to provide for certain works at Rosslare Strand to prevent coastal erosion. I should like the Parliamentary Secretary to tell us now what progress has been made. In his opening speech he described the work as experimental. As far as I can see, the experiment so far, to say the best for it, has not been an outstanding success. The fact remains that the village or town of Rosslare Strand is being gradually eaten away, even since the experimental work to prevent coastal erosion was commenced. Therefore, it is important that the Parliamentary Secretary should tell the people of Wexford if the experiment has been a success, what the prospects are, whether it is intended to spend more money on it and what the Department's attitude is in respect of coastal erosion generally. I am particularly concerned, naturally, with Rosslare Strand because I have seen tens and tens of yards being eaten away in recent years.

In the last hour I have heard Deputies talk about arterial drainage and say that money so spent is well spent. It is equally important to try to prevent towns and villages, especially on the East coast, being eaten away by coastal erosion. Thirteen years ago I referred to the fact that many houses in Rosslare Strand had been taken away by the sea. At the present time some of the hotels are in real danger of collapse if the sea eats in any further. The Rosslare Golf Course has been greatly damaged, even in the last winter.

I do not know what sort of engineers the Board of Works have employed in an effort to combat this coastal erosion or whether or not they have any particular experience in coastal erosion work. With all due respect to them and joining in the tributes that have been paid generally here to-day to the Board of Works officials and technical staff, I would suggest that the Parliamentary Secretary should consider the employment as consultants of some of the Dutch engineers who, as we all know, have a great deal of experience in fighting the sea back from the land. The Parliamentary Secretary ought seriously to consider that. The Dutch have been engaged for generations in trying to preserve their land from the sea and have been successful. Unless we make a superhuman effort and are prepared to spend pretty liberally, many seaside towns, like Rosslare Strand and Waterville, to which Deputy Palmer referred, will disappear, in a relatively short period. If we are to accept that they will disappear, that is all right but I suggest that we should not be resigned to the fact that the sea cannot be beaten. The Dutch have beaten the sea successfully.

While, as I said, we have the utmost confidence in our own engineers, coastal erosion is not a problem with which they deal from day to day or year to year and the employment of Dutch engineers as consultants would be of tremendous benefit to the technicians in the Board of Works and to the Parliamentary Secretary. Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary in his reply will give the House whatever report is available to him so that the people of Rosslare Strand may be reassured that every effort is being made to preserve the town.

The second question I want to ask refers to a scheme of drainage that has been commenced recently in an area called Ballyteigue and Kilmore. The Parliamentary Secretary referred to it in his opening speech. We are grateful, and the people of the area are grateful, that that scheme has been started but I should like to know from the Parliamentary Secretary if it is a relief scheme, whether or not the workers must be recruited from the employment exchange, and must the workers be recipients of unemployment assistance. That is my information. It may be right or it may be wrong. I assume that, when it is taken in under the Estimate of the Board of Works, under either Vote 8 or Vote 9, it is not an emergency or employment scheme and that, therefore, the contractor, whoever he may be, or the people who supervise the work, would be entitled to take in any worker who suits them from any part of County Wexford.

Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary would also make a comment on what I have said about the employment of workers on the Ballyteige and Kilmore drainage—whether or not it is a relief scheme, whether or not the contractor, or whoever supervises the work, is entitled to draw workers from whatever area he wishes, whether or not they are on unemployment assistance or unemployment benefit. The reason I raised the matter is that a man who lives in an adjacent electoral division says he was refused work because the labour exchange refused to submit his name as he was not in the electoral area of Kilmore and Ballyteige.

Mr. Coogan

This is a Vote which brings out the parochial mind in us all, but just before I become parochially-minded, I have a few comments to make. I must start on the Office, for which I note an increase of nearly £20,000. I see that the tendency each year is for this Estimate to increase, and since 1951, we have practically doubled it. It is only natural that there should be an increase in view of the increased activities in regard to drainage and other work throughout the country. I think drainage was one of the best things we ever started. Actually, its benefits can never be measured, because you have losses, through fluke and otherwise, of cattle which people overlook.

While I notice an increase of something like £20,000 in the engineering branch, I hope to see an increase in the marine section. I refer to the marine section of the engineering branch in regard to the extension of the elbow or the pier at the Aran Islands. I raised this matter before and I think the Parliamentary Secretary is as much interested in it as I am. He appreciates the need for such an extension. At the moment, the ferry boat has to remain alongside for only certain periods. This results in a timetable which will not suit the tourist traffic so well. It means that the boat must anchor off shore, whereas the provision of this elbow would give greater facilities and would help tourist traffic to the island.

It would also serve another purpose. It would increase the safe anchorage and tie up of fishing trawlers off the other side of the pier. During rough weather, it is quite possible that untold damage could be done to fishing trawlers tied alongside the pier in that area. There is a certain amount of fear that some night with a certain wind and tide great damage might be done there. I know the Parliamentary Secretary will use his good offices in this connection. The place is in his area and it will be in his interest as well as mine to have it expedited.

I should like to refer again this year to the increase in the Vote for the National Monuments Branch. This branch, as far as the west is concerned, seems to me to have the Rip Van Winkle type of mentality. I have raised this question several times. I now notice that it has been raised by the Military History Society—by no less an authority than Mr. G. Hayes-McCoy—who have pointed out the importance of preserving that last section of the Galway city walls known as "The Lion's Tower". I think the National Monuments Branch should be big enough to swallow their pride. They ignored this in the past; they turned it down and said it was not work of importance. I do not know whose views we are to take. Here we have the views of the Military History Society and of that great authority, Mr. Hayes-McCoy. I would ask the Monuments Branch to swallow their pride and take this matter up again. We hope to have this brought to a fruitful conclusion.

Another matter I should like to bring to the notice of the Board of Works is the necessity for repairing the mill-race embankments. I do not think it was the function of the Board to deal with these sections of the river. The mill-race committees no longer function and it seems that these embankments will collapse. They seem to be nobody's baby at the moment. I think that in a case like that we shall have the Board of Works coming to the rescue. At this stage it is only right that they should take an interest to see whose fault it is. I cannot expect the Parliamentary Secretary to let me know "off the cuff" whose responsibility it is but, perhaps, he might let me know later by letter.

I should like to know what the intentions of the Board of Works are in regard to the large deposits of Corrib spoil which are dumped along the river at Terrylane. These big mounds of spoil are anything but nice to look at. They should be cleared and put in lower land away from the area.

The Board should interest themselves in the possibility of deepening that section of the river further up, known as The Creek at Meenlough. It would help the flow of water and it would help the people of Meenlough who are interested in that section of the river. Also, while the machinery is in the area, I should like to know if the Board could possibly consider deepening the approach to the pier in Meenlough. It may not be the intention of the Board to deal with that, but while the machinery is in the area it is only right, having regard to the amount of time it would take, to undertake this work.

Another matter which I should like to raise concerns the level of the river Corrib. People living in the area of Meenlough are wondering, if you interfere with the level of the river, whether it will interfere with their water supply or with the wells and they would like an assurance on that matter.

Would the Parliamentary Secretary enlighten me on the few points I have raised, especially in relation to the preservation of the old city walls of Galway. I know it is a baby of that section of the Department called the National Monuments Branch. I suggest that the Parliamentary Secretary should use his good offices to have something done and I should also like him to be prepared to meet the Chamber of Commerce and Galway Corporation and other bodies interested in that question.

I agree with Deputy Lynch on the need for improving the ventilation in this House. It leaves much to be desired and I think it is the cause of lack of a quorum on a number of occasions. Deputies just cannot stand the atmosphere at times. There is, of course, a lot of "hot air", but an improved ventilation system would do a good deal to encourage people to remain in the House.

I should like to pay tribute to the Office because one gets an acknowledgment of representations there. Other Departments should take example from them. I should also like to pay tribute to the work done on the Corrib at Galway by our engineers. I am only expressing the views of foreigners who have come there and have seen that work being done. They say it is marvellous and it is only fair that we should express appreciation in the House.

Mr. Sherwin

He just does the job when he is told. There is very little I can say in that case. In connection with the Minister's control of St. Stephen's Green, I would ask him to consider the erection of a low railing around the ponds. I was there on Sunday and several times I saw small children trying to throw food to the ducks. The children had to be dragged back and I am satisfied that if adults were not around, those children would find themselves in the pond very often. There is no protection; the ground slopes down; and if you step one inch beyond the limit, you are in the water, which I believe is four or five feet deep and very muddy. In fact, it could do with cleaning.

In the Phoenix Park, we have the base of the Gough monument and we have another base in St. Stephen's Green of a statue that was blown up recently. I should like to know what the Minister proposes to do with the bases of those statues which cannot be left as they are. Could he not offer them to the National Monuments Association, the Old I.R.A., or whatever organisation was responsible for their erection?

Mr. Tierney

I should like to pay tribute to the work the Board of Works has been doing in Nenagh and surrounding areas. The people there appreciate it very much. The drainage situation is bad in North Tipperary. We have several rivers which we think should be brought under the Board of Works and at present North Tipperary County Council are negotiating with the Board in respect of damage done by the Brosna River. It is damaging a river which we, as the local authority in North Tipperary, must maintain at a certain cost each year. I am referring to the Pallas River at Rathcabbin where it joins the Brosna. I should like the Parliamentary Secretary at some future date to speed up the negotiations on this matter, so that landowners in Rathcabbin district will be relieved of the flooding that has taken place for the past three or four years.

The county council also sent a deputation in connection with the Carrigahorric river and there was an estimate before the North Tipperary Council which showed that the cost of cleaning the river would be roughly £56,000. We were trying to do it under the Local Authorities (Works) Act and were almost on the verge of doing at least portion of it when that money was stopped. I believe, and each member of the council is, I think, of the same opinion, that in the case of a river such as this, stretching from the bridge of Portumna almost into Roscrea and where it is costing £56,000 or maybe £70,000 to do it in a small way, that it is too much to expect any local authority to do. If the money is restored, as sometime it may be, it will be very hard for the county council to spend all the money doing a certain portion of only one river.

The Minister at that time promised a deputation that he would go very carefully into the question of these rivers—it was a deputation from the General Council of County Councils because there were other counties with similar problems—and try to remedy the position. I mention those points so that the Parliamentary Secretary may look into them. If, in his generosity, he can give any little grant either this year or next year to relieve flooding in that area it would be very welcome. At least 7,000 acres are flooded and any relief in that position would be of tremendous benefit to the people and to the country as a whole ultimately.

Mr. Haughey

I have only one point to make on this Estimate. For a change, it is a point in connection with Dublin City and I am a little reluctant to intervene in what seems to be mainly the preserve of Galway representatives.

For many years now there have been two problems existing side by side in the City of Dublin. There is very grave need for new municipal offices. The present accommodation is quite inadequate. It is unsuitable. It is unhealthy. It is uneconomic. With every year that passes, the problem becomes more acute and more urgent. The necessity for providing suitable and adequate accommodation for the Dublin Corporation is to-day probably one of the most urgent and serious problems facing that body.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Does the decision in the matter lie with the Parliamentary Secretary or with some other body?

Mr. Haughey

At the moment what I am saying may appear to be irrelevant but, in the light of what I shall say in a moment, it is relevant. From the point of view of Dublin Corporation, it is vital that something should be done about the problem immediately. The difficulty which the Dublin Corporation come up against in this matter is that of providing themselves with a suitable site.

Side by side with that problem of the Dublin Corporation, there is the position of Dublin Castle. For many years there has been a problem in relation to that building, a problem which also grows more acute as the years go by. Many of the offices there are quite unsuitable and some have deteriorated to the point where they are actually dangerous. Some buildings have been abandoned and are derelict.

Now these two problems—that of Dublin Corporation providing themselves with new offices and that of the provision of new Civil Service offices— are in my view related. The correct place for the new Dublin municipal offices is the Dublin Castle site. We should, therefore, prepare a comprehensive plan for dealing with the problem of rebuilding Dublin Castle and the problem of providing the Dublin Corporation with new municipal offices on that site. It would be particularly opportune just now to embark on a programme of rebuilding Dublin Castle because of the amount of slack in the building industry in the city at the moment. A programme of rebuilding of that order would have a very beneficial effect on the employment position in the city. It would also have a correspondingly beneficial effect on commercial life generally.

The Parliamentary Secretary has an opportunity of providing a solution to these two problems in one comprehensive plan. He should tackle the matter now. If he does so, he will provide a very sensible solution to two long-outstanding problems and one which will remain as a monument to his judgment and good sense for many generations. I urge him to enter into discussions with the Dublin Corporation with a view to bringing forth a comprehensive scheme to provide the required Civil Service offices on the Dublin Castle site and, at the same time, provide the Corporation with a site for their much needed new municipal offices.

Mr. Calleary

I should like to take this opportunity to thank the Parliamentary Secretary for his assistance in bringing the drainage of the River Moy to its present stage. I hope that work will start this year. His predecessor postponed this work until 1963. The scheme will be a great blessing to the people of Mayo and Sligo. I am assured that over 3,000 families will benefit materially. From ten acres of land upwards will be improved in each case. That will be of tremendous benefit to the people concerned. I am satisfied they will appreciate it very much.

It is regrettable that certain vested interests are doing their utmost to stop this work. I am certain they will not be successful in their endeavours. There is no danger of the fishing industry being materially affected by the drainage. We have had drainage schemes in the past and we know from experience that fisheries are not affected. It must be remembered, too, that it is now possible to restock our rivers.

I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to tackle the problem of boreens. Many people are living without any amenities of any kind in the more backward districts and the least to which they are entitled is a boreen to their houses.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That matter will arise more relevantly on the next Vote—No. 10.

Mr. Calleary

I again thank the Parliamentary Secretary for the progress he has made in bringing the Moy drainage scheme to its present stage.

Mr. Jones

I am glad that the Parliamentary Secretary intends to speed up the building of schools. On the figures given to us for 1922 approximately 1,200 schools have been replaced. There were approximately at that date 750 schools for replacement and 300 needing major improvements. The estimate the Parliamentary Secretary gives for the final solution of this problem in ten, fifteen or twenty years, is heartening. I should like to feel we would have solved the problem by that time. That will still leave approximately 2,500 schools which by that time, taking 1922 or 1920 as the base year, will be approximately 50 years older and I am sure quite a number of them, by that time, will require replacement and enlargement.

I mentioned last year that on looking at the schools erected throughout the country, one most certainly feels pleased that the Parliamentary Secretary can report that the staff now dealing with the problem will step-up the work, and that there will be a lessening of the time lag between the sanctioning of a grant for the building of schools and the actual time when building operations commence. I understand that in the past there were problems in regard to staff which slowed down this work, but I hope that the improvement in that situation will continue. I wonder if it would help matters if, where there are minor improvements to be dealt with, the local officer of the Office of Public Works could deal with them? I think that might, in many cases, speed up the carrying out of minor repairs, instead of having to seek sanction, as I understand they must, from the head office in Dublin.

Other Deputies mentioned playing fields. Of course, everyone agrees that their provision is a very desirable thing but you cannot, without much thought, sanction playing fields. It might not always be desirable to entice young people to come back to the playing fields in the evenings, unless someone were prepared to organise and superintend their games. That is something which would need much thought, whether children should be permitted to play in those fields in the evening without supervision.

The second large work with which this Estimate is concerned deals with arterial drainage. I should like to hear something from the Parliamentary Secretary about the two rivers in my constituency which I mentioned on a previous occasion. They are the Deale and the Maigue. Preliminary work in regard to a survey of the Deale has been carried out and is continuing at the moment, but he might give some indication as to when the survey is expected to be completed, and what time lag there will be before work on the actual drainage begins. I mentioned previously—there is no necessity to labour it—that last year we had a large amount of flooding in that region, and a large area of land was seriously interfered with. That happened in a year that was already bad.

I should like to join with other Deputies in paying tribute to the officials of the Office of Public Works and to the Parliamentary Secretary for the courtesy they have always shown when dealing with queries..

Mr. Bartley

The debate has been a pretty fair representation of the position in so far as Deputies' knowledge goes. Personally, I feel that if I were to draw up a balance sheet of the faultfinding and the praising, the praise in this case would outweigh the faultfinding. That is gratifying for a person like myself who has not been a very long time in this position. However, the Office of Public Works, in the main, as has been pointed out by a number of Deputies, very largely gives agency services in respect of a number of matters. We do, of course, in the matter of one very large item, namely, arterial drainage, initiate, but, as I mentioned in my introductory statement, I put school building in the first priority in so far as the Office of Public Works has responsibility in relation to it.

I was glad to hear Deputies giving due recognition to the amount of work which has been done since we began to rule and regulate our own affairs here at home, in the elimination of the very large bulk of school building arrears which faced the State when we took over the Government. I find that between 1901 and 1910, the average expenditure per annum was £25,780; between 1911 and 1920, it was £32,163; between 1921 and 1930, it was £55,065; between 1931 and 1940, it was £134,311; between 1941 and 1950, it was £246,572; and from 1951 to 1959, that is, nine years, £903,692. I need hardly comment on the figures. The total expenditure in 1958-59, that is, the last financial year, was £1,491,975 and the Estimate for 1959-60, as Deputies know, is £1,600,000.

Between 1919 and 1935—they, mainly, would be years of home government—a period of 16 years, 660 new schools and large improvements were completed. The average worked out at 41 per annum. In the last financial year, 1958-59, the number completed was 154, so that it is true to say that very considerable and steady progress has been maintained. There are difficulties that are not readily within the capacity of the Commissioners of Public Works to solve. Perhaps if I were to go through a list of the difficulties which the Schools Section of the Office meet I would save time.

One is the provision by the school manager of an adequate site and others include delays in obtaining satisfactory title to a site, availability of ample and suitable water supply for sanitation and, in rural areas, this very often involves the finding of water on a site and the sinking of a well. Another matter which causes difficulty is that of changes in accommodation requirements, which may necessitate replanning. A further difficulty is that consideration of tenders very often involves a considerable amount of correspondence with contractors before all details are satisfactorily settled and a tender can be accepted. It is sometimes necessary because of unsatisfactory tendering in the first place, or because of the withdrawal of tenders, to seek fresh tenders. In addition, during the course of a contract, particularly during the initial stages, bad weather often impedes progress and, of course, one that is not uncommon, the failure by a contractor to complete a job, sometimes makes it necessary to invite tenders for completion of outstanding works.

These are difficulties with which the Schools Section has had to contend and, even with the best will and organisation in the Office itself, these difficulties very often cause tantalising and heart-breaking delays. They are just as heart-breaking to the officers of the Office of Public Works as they are to parents, schools managers and everybody else concerned. I do not think I ought to delay further in dealing with schools. From all the remarks that have been made, in the main, Deputies are satisfied that as good progress as is possible is being made. If we were to attempt to achieve a considerable increase in output I think we would have to have a very substantial increase in the staff and, before we can recommend any such increase in staff to the Minister for Finance, there are certain examinations of the work of the Schools Section which must be carried out. We want to make sure that, in fact, the staff in the Schools Building Section is being utilised to the best possible purpose.

If I were to deal with the speeches of Deputies seriatim I would repeat myself in regard to certain matters which have been mentioned by many speakers, but I should like to deal with the question of coast erosion, to which Deputy Lynch first referred. That is really what he has been speaking about in relation to the position at Tramore—at least, that is what I gather from him by the description he gave of it. I want to stress that there is no statutory responsibility on the Commissioners of Public Works in respect of coast erosion. Deputies know that during the previous Administration a Bill was introduced to deal with this question but it raised so many difficulties that the Government of the day decided not to proceed with it, or, in any event, they did not take any steps to ensure that it would be enacted. After a considerable amount of discussion in the Dáil I think they realised that the problem was bristling with more difficulties than appeared when the Bill was drafted.

We are very much in the same position with regard to coast erosion and, what is being done at Rosslare is, as Deputy Corish pointed out, by way of being an experiment. I think he said that we should bring in Dutchmen who have long experience in this matter of coast protection, but what is being done at Rosslare is really a long, patient, drawn-out process of observation for various purposes—for instance the effect of groynes, observation of tide and sand movements, and things of that sort. This would all have to be undertaken by the Dutchmen, even if we brought them in, and it seems it is much better that this type of work should be done by ourselves, as it is being done very satisfactorily by our own engineers, before inviting anybody else in. When we have collected and collated all this information, well and good, let the opinion be sought of people who have longer experience of these matters than we, but I do not think it is necessary, at this stage, that foreign experts be brought in to do the observing.

Mr. Donnellan

There was never any need to bring in such people.

Mr. Bartley

In any event, the information on which the judgment of these foreign experts would be placed would have to be collected first of all, and we are collecting it now.

I do not know exactly what I have to say to Deputies in regard to the very big and important question of arterial drainage. I know that the cases made by the representatives of every river bed and catchment area in the country are quite true. Both alone, and in company with the Minister for Finance, I have received a number of deputations on this subject. They have all made strong cases and we have had no reason to doubt the truth of what they said, but what are we to do? Between major and minor proposals there are sixty of these catchment areas in the country, and it is quite impossible to drain them all together. It is obvious that there must be some order of preference.

Whether facetiously or in earnest Deputies referred to a succession of Galwaymen holding the office of Parliamentary Secretary and suggested, or seemed to suggest therefrom, that the location of two major schemes west of the Shannon might not have taken place if, for instance, there had been a Leinster man or a Munster man introduced between some two of them. In any event, I do not know that it is necessary for me to defend myself against any implications arising from that statement because I found, when I came into the office, that there was a very long established order of priority before me. I would have been a courageous Parliamentary Secretary indeed if I were to interfere with it. I am not saying that it is just the order of priority I myself would have drawn up, but there it was, and with the pressure coming on us from all quarters, how could we have restored order to the work of arterial drainage if, every time there was a change of Government, we were to make serious alterations in the list?

The list, as it is, is based on long experience, inspection and observation on the part of the professional staff in the Office of Public Works. They themselves have been impressed by the degree of hardship suffered in those areas. I am not saying that the quality of the land has been a first consideration with them although they do have due regard to the question of agricultural output. If there is any tendency on the part of Deputies to make this a provincial matter and to make a comparison between two provinces, I would ask the Munster Deputy who has large areas of Munster still unserviced to recognise the fact that an acre of land to a Connaught man is more valuable probably than 10 or 15 acres in the broad lands of Munster. If there has been any shaping of national drainage policy on the part of the Government I imagine that would be a factor that would be taken into account.

Quite apart from the physical impossibility of doing them all together, there is a number of other reasons why in drawing up a priority you would gravitate towards these less fortunate areas. You have more congestion in these districts and a greater incidence of emigration. All that has been stressed very much by nearly all public representatives and others who have been talking a great deal about the effect of emigration and the necessity to stem it. Possibly the people from the areas who have not yet been serviced may be under the impression that I am speaking as a Connaughtman in this matter. I assure you I do no such thing. When I look at the map in my office, which has considerably large white areas to the southeast, I am not one bit satisfied. I often say to the Commissioners and to the drainage engineers that I hope they will get as soon as possible to the stage when they will be able to colour much broader areas in those parts.

The Parliamentary Secretary, without interruption.

Mr. Donnellan

Damned well you know you would not get away with that.

Mr. Blowick

He has to say something to account——

The national programme of drainage represents about 20,000 miles of arteries. Between completed works and works in progress, surveys and design work, about one-third of that—say, roughly 7,000 miles —has been reached. That is not bad progress since the end of the war. The principal engineers dealing with it think that in about ten years the back of the job will have been broken. I think they are entitled to take that viewpoint because, as the work progresses, they are getting more and more experience and the supervisory staff—drivers, gangers, and all that type of personnel—and the junior engineers are all now settling in to a well-regulated and well-controlled routine.

We have difficulty in getting and in holding sufficient professional staff. I take it that that is just part and parcel of the general emigration tendency. When young engineers hear of better employment elsewhere they leave our employment in drainage, as well as other employments, and go off. Unmarried men who have no domestic ties, so to speak, are not easily held and we suffer from it.

Mr. Donnellan

We do not pay them. That is the reason they go.

Mr. Bartley

I suppose that in any sphere of activity in this country we do not and we cannot pay as well as in similar spheres elsewhere. I take it that that is one of our national drawbacks.

Mr. Donnellan

It is a pity.

Mr. Bartley

After spending some time in these other employments they come back and tell us they would prefer to work with us—but they have to go away to find that out. With regard to particular problems such as was mentioned in regard to the Maine and the Brown Flesk, I cannot tell Deputy Palmer what the Commissioners of Public Works will be able to do with the Brown Flesk. We met a deputation recently and treated them, as Deputy Palmer acknowledged, as fairly as we possibly could. There is a technical difficulty in relation to the Brown Flesk inasmuch as it is not an ordinary flood drainage problem. It is more a problem of sudden torrents which accumulate quickly and recede quickly. The nature of the river itself is such that there will be very considerable destruction of land to do the job of straightening which apparently is desired locally and probably more would be lost than gained. I do not want to say that that is the definite and final judgment on the matter, but it seems to be the way our knowledge is pointing at the moment.

Deputy Blowick mentioned the Tennessee Valley and praised the very fine work done there. The House will be interested to know that the principle applied in the Tennessee Valley was worked out and established in the United States by an engineer named Manning who got his training in the Irish Office of Public Works. We had over here a Colonel Rydell who is looked upon as one of the best American experts on this problem. He was amazed to find that Manning graduated here in Ireland and that we had trained him.

As I am on the question of Colonel Rydell and floods, I think I should reply to Deputy Donnellan and Deputy Blowick on the matter of the River Suck. Neither the late Deputy Beegan nor myself can be held responsible for the position with regard to the Suck. The late Deputy Beegan did not accept, and I do not accept, responsibility for this position with regard to the Suck. The previous Government brought in this American expert, Colonel Rydell. He made a recommendation that no further rivers emptying into the Shannon should be dealt with until certain investigations in relation to the Shannon were carried out. He directed what these investigations should be and when they are completed, he is apparently to be brought back to assess their findings and a decision is to be taken.

His recommendation was accepted by the previous Government and all we are doing is simply honouring it and carrying it out. Now these two Deputies, one of them a former Minister and the other a former Parliamentary Secretary, are blaming me for a decision in regard to the River Suck which they themselves made.

Mr. Haughey

They are playing the Parliamentary Secretary for a sucker.

Mr. Bartley

I do not think there is anything else I want to say on the matter of drainage. The figure of expenditure last year on drainage was, in round figures, three quarters of a million pounds—£776,202 to be exact. That is not bad going and it represents a considerable increase which has been sanctioned by the present Minister for Finance. Even were he prepared to increase it to a much bigger figure, I am afraid we would have had to decline it because our staff and organisation would not be able to deal with it. So far as the Department of Finance is concerned, we in the Office of Public Works have no complaint to make in regard to the financing of drainage.

Deputy Corish wants to know whether the Ballyteige and Kilmore scheme is a relief scheme and whether it is not possible to take on workers from any part of the country. The standard practice in regard to recruitment on these arterial drainage schemes is that the resident engineer goes to the local exchange and asks for the list of those who are registered. Those who are in receipt of the largest amounts of unemployment assistance get preference, that is, provided that they are fit for the class of work which arterial drainage involves. A man may, of course, get employment where he has some special skill which is necessary and which is not available from the exchange list. There is a little latitude in that respect, and if there were not, the work could not go on satisfactorily.

There were a number of other matters mentioned in relation to arterial drainage, but it is hardly necessary for me to take them one by one. Having given the general position with regard to it I think each Deputy who has a problem can apply what I have said to his own area. I would ask each Deputy who has a bad problem to try to put himself in my position, where I have 60 of these arterial drainage areas to deal with, and try to re-shuffle them and see what a very difficult position he would find himself in.

There was one point in regard to schools to which I did not refer. There was a complaint by two or three Deputies in regard to the monotonous appearance or the sameness of all these very fine schools which are now being put up. Well, even fine appearances or beauty can become monotonous, I suppose. Everybody who spoke said that the schools were very fine productions but there is one thing which cannot be ignored, that is, when the school section of the Office of Public Works is working to a standard set of plans, they are able to do the work much more quickly and with an arrears of 750 new schools to be built, it is obvious that everything you can do to speed up the rate of progress is desirable. If we are to start having a much wider variety of design, such an innovation would take from expedition and output and whether it is wise to attempt that at this stage, when there is such a clamour for a larger output of schools, is something that would need very careful consideration.

In referring to output, it is usual to refer to two categories, that is, to new schools and to large scale improvements. These improvements often involve extensions and I am informed by the Commissioners of Public Works that the carrying out of these improvements and extensions is a much slower job than the building of a new school. I think they said that the preparation of the work for extension and improvement takes about four times the amount of time that preparing the plans for a new school involves. Therefore these reconstructed schools very often have almost as much work put into them as a new building. In fact, when they are completed, the difference between them and a new school is hardly noticeable, even to people in the building trade.

Deputy Haughey mentioned a particular difficulty and one about which I am not able to give him any very definite information. It is the suggested locating of new Dublin municipal council buildings in the Castle. That involves a much wider decision and I do not think that the making of that decision is within the competence of the Commissioners of Public Works. A very comprehensive survey of the Dublin position will have to be made and I take it that there will be consultation and co-operation between the Commissioners of Public Works, Dublin Corporation and any other authority concerned. I am afraid that I am not able to help the Deputy at this stage and I am sure he will understand why.

I had the greatest sympathy with what Deputy Davern had to say about the Rock of Cashel but it was news to me that my predecessor had decided that a flagstaff would be erected but that some evil influence has prevented the National Flag from being flown on it. I am not aware of the decision about the flagstaff or of the evil influence to which he referred. However, I assure him that I shall have the matter examined and I want to tell him that I have the fullest sympathy with his sentiments in the matter and that whatever I can do to secure his wishes in the matter, I shall be only too glad to do.

The Chair has repeatedly had to point out to Deputies that matters like the accommodation to be provided in school buildings is not a matter for decision by the Office of Public Works but by the Minister for Education. We are merely the agents who carry out the decisions already arrived at between the managers and the Department of Education.

I do not know whether I ought mention it at this stage, but there are two categories into which the building of primary schools might be put. One section of it is done directly by the Office of Public Works. The other category is done by the school managers under, of course, certain supervisions on the part of this Office. Those in the second category would be largely religious orders. Their schools, of course, are on the average far larger than the ordinary rural primary school. I asked for some information on the matter and I was told that, on the average, the grant given by the Department of Education for one of these primary schools built by a religious order would be of the order of £60,000 and that for the improvement of such a school would be of the order of £25,000. That compares with an average figure of something over £8,000 for the national school built directly by the Office of Public Works, and a figure of something over £4,000 for an improvement carried out by the Office of Public Works. So that, although you have only a small number in the second category, they usually eat up as much money as the total expenditure by the Office itself directly. Whether that particular section of school building might not be capable of some special treatment is not easy to say at the moment, but I have asked the Commissioners to examine the matter to see if by some different treatment greater expedition of output could not be achieved.

I do not think I have ignored the remarks of anybody who has spoken. I have tried to be as fair as possible to everybody. The last Deputy who spoke was an Teachta Mac Seoin. He mentioned schools but I think his remarks were on much the same lines as others who spoke. He also referred to the question of playing fields. Again, I want to say that it is not for us to decide what kind of accommodation will be provided. The Department of Education do that. If they direct that a certain type of school with certain amenities be provided, it is the job of the Board of Works to carry out the work.

The Maigue has not yet been started. It is not possible to say exactly when the survey work on the Deale will be completed, but I understand that the field work has made considerable progress. Of course, that is not the end of the job. When the field work is done, the results have to be taken into the office and the plotting and the design prepared. I can assure the Deputy that it will get the best possible attention.

With regard to the disposal of spoil, this is a matter of some consequence because as we go ahead with the work there will be more and more of these spoil heaps around the country. I know that people have been writing letters to the newspapers objecting to their appearance, but there is nothing we can do about it within the financial limits. If we were to undertake to spread this spoil on the level, it would take up too much time and too much money, and we feel we ought to direct our efforts, our money and our skill to the main task of draining the land. Very often the spoil thrown up is suitable for top-dressing and farmers will take it away. Even where it is not possible to have it taken by local people, the engineers in charge of these drainage schemes see to it that the banks they make are trimmed nicely. In time the vegetation comes on them, they merge with the surrounding countryside and are not the eyesores for all time people make them out to be now. In any event, it is quite impossible to undertake the spreading of them, as has been suggested. I am afraid we will only have to put up with it. In certain places like towns and cities, where you have building operations, preparation of sites for various things and so on, the spoil is availed of as filling-up material. In fact, in some places there is a clamour for it; but in remote places you have not got that demand for it and there is nothing we can do about it.

I was asked about fishery harbours. Of course, I cannot give any definite information on fishery harbours because it is a matter for the Minister for Lands. I am sure the House is aware that he has been very active in the matter. In fact, he has detached a number of our staff to collaborate with an F.A.O. expert who has been examining a number of our harbours with a view to development. That survey has been going on for some time and I think it will not be very long until a report will be available. Of course, that report does not come to me; it goes to the Minister for Lands. I take it that the Minister for Lands will make that information available to the House at the earliest possible moment.

I see a reference here to the Lion's Tower, Galway. It was mentioned by Deputy Coogan. I am a representative of Galway myself and what I shall say now may possibly be unwise because I shall have to answer for it locally, but I do think something more might have been done locally to clean up the place. The walls are there but it is not obvious what can be done about them, even by the Office of Public Works. I believe that the National Monuments Committee did take them over for a period because it was represented to them that there was a danger that the tower was to be demolished. In any event, their taking over for a period prevented the demolition, but the National Monuments Committee does not regard the Lion's Tower in Galway as being of sufficient national importance to be permanently under their care and, for that reason, they advised the Commissioners to revoke the order which they previously made and the Commissioners did revoke the order on the committee's advice. That is how the position stands. I know there is an archaeological society in Galway, that there are many very active bodies, that Deputy Coogan is a member of some of them and, between all of them, it ought to be possible to ensure that the Lion's Tower in Galway is made presentable for the tourists this summer and that will give the National Monuments Committee a little more time to consider the representations that have been made here today about it.

Tá mé ag ceapadh, a Cheann Chomhairle, nach bhfuil a thuille le rá agam agus ní dóigh liom gur fhág mé aon duine as an chúntas. Má fhág, tá aithmhéal orm agus beidh mé ag léigheamh cúntas na díospóireachta ar ball agus má fheicim gur fhág mé aon duine amach, scríobhfaidh mé chuige agus tabharfaí mé freagra ar a chuid cainnte.

Motion: "That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration," by leave, withdrawn.

Vote put and agreed to.

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht - Tuesday, 26 May 1959

Committee on Finance. - Vote 8—Office of Public Works (Resumed).

A Deputy

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 26 May 1959