asked the Minister for Health whether in view of the provisions of section 6 of the Trade Union Act, 1941, he considers that he is justified in entering into discussions with the Irish Medical Association for the fixing of conditions of employment for medical and surgical posts.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Discussions with Irish Medical Association.
2.
Since this question was put down, I have enquired into the matter and I am advised that, as the Irish Medical Association are not holders of a negotiation licence and are not an excepted body within the meaning of subsection (3) of Section 6 of the Trade Union Act, 1941, the section applies to them and, consequently, it is not lawful for them to carry on negotiations for the fixing of remuneration or conditions of employment of their members.
Medical staffs in local authority hospitals are officers of the particular local authority concerned and, consequently, any negotiations should be with the local authority rather than with me. In order to facilitate the Association, however, I had expressed my willingness to meet a deputation from them, subject to their withdrawing the existing boycotts imposed by them on certain posts and to their furnishing me with a list of the items they wish to discuss; but, in the light of the advice which I have just received, it would not be possible for me to discuss questions of remuneration or conditions until they obtain either a negotiation licence or an order from the Minister for Industry and Commerce under subsection (6) of the Section mentioned excepting them from the operation of that section.
Will the Minister state how the I.M.A. have been allowed, down through the years, to act as a negotiating body when, in fact, from the Minister's reply, it is obvious, under sub-section (3) of Section 6 of the Trade Union Act, 1941, that they are not an excepted body and that they are liable to a penalty of a fine not exceeding £10 together with £1 for every day during which the offence is committed? Is the Minister aware that, when he was criticised here the other day by Deputy Dillon for suggesting that they were in fact contravening the law, he was perfectly correct in his statement?
After all this blatherskite, will the Minister for Health consider inviting representatives of the I.M.A. to come and discuss with him whatever grievances they believe themselves to be labouring under, with a view to restoring good relations between himself and the profession, without prejudice to any advice he may have got as to the application of the Trade Union Act or anything else? I have in mind simply a discussion to restore good relations so that we can get on with the job.
The only obstacle to the restoration of good relations, which I am as anxious to achieve as Deputy Dillon, is the entirely arbitrary action which the executive of this association have taken and which I am firmly convinced their members deprecate just as much as I do.
I am not trying to imply judgement on anybody's conduct in this matter. I am asking the Minister if he will make the gesture on the general grounds of restoring good relations between the Minister and the Profession, which seems a desirable thing. I am asking him to invite them to come and see him. He may look upon that in the pejorative sense as a Munich but, as I recall to him, his leader took a different view and did not attach a pejorative sense to it.
Is the Minister aware that Fine Gael always want to change the law and that if he acts in the manner suggested by Deputy Dillon the Minister could himself be impeached?
Deputy O'Malley is trying to make mischief.
Order!
Would the Minister consider it advisable to ask the Minister for Industry and Commerce to make the necessary order under sub-section (3) of Section 6 of the Trade Union Act of 1941 in order to remove any obstacle there is to further negotiation?
You have to apply first.
I could not approach the Minister for Industry and Commerce in a matter of this sort. The initiative and responsibility for asking for an exception order rest with the executive of the I.M.A. They must take action. It is all very well to talk about a gesture but there has been a gesture, a gesture of defiance, a gesture of repudiation of responsibility, a gesture of refusal to accept the proper course in relation to these negotiations. The officers originally concerned in this matter—the county physicians and county surgeons—are officers of the local health authorities and, under the auspices of the Government, at the instance of the Government of which Deputy Dillon was a member, the City and County Managers Act was amended to provide that the managers could not discuss and could not make any proposal to an appropriate Minister unless that proposal had first been sanctioned by a resolution of the local authority concerned. The I.M.A. have chosen to disregard that, just as they have chosen to disregard the provisions of the Trade Union Act. I think the gesture which ought to be made in this matter is one of acceptance of the established statutory fact that the members of the Central Council of the association have responsibilities under the law.
May I suggest to the Minister that these pedantic answers and oceans of red tape do not prevent him, as the Minister, from inviting anybody in this country to come to his office and discuss with him a question, any question, which is causing misunderstanding and ill-feeling? It may require a gesture of goodwill on his part but I suggest that, forgetting pedantry and red tape, he ask them to come and see him. If he does so and discusses this whole question with them then I think that clearly the obligation passes to them to make a corresponding gesture.
There is nothing pedantic and there is no red tape in asking people to be law-abiding. That is what is concerned here. The Deputy may brush the law aside, as dictators have done elsewhere. They have had very little regard for the rule of law. However, we are governed in this country by the statutes passed by this Oireachtas and they apply even to the leaders of the I.M.A. When they indicate that they are prepared to conform to the law and go through the accepted channels, I shall be very ready to receive them, but I will not receive them under threat and I will not receive them with a ban in existence. They will have to lift it and restore the situation as it existed before they imposed it in the arbitrary fashion in which they did last December.