Substantially I say for all those parts of it that matter. For the brouhaha "No" but for all that matters "Yes". I am glad to congratulate the Minister for his late animadversion. My only anxiety is that the speciality of Fianna Fáil is talk but action is what matters. The mistake we may have made was that we did too much and talked too little. I sympathise with the Minister's spasms of delight, recalling the occasion when he once addressed me, from where I now stand, for six hours. Of course, on that occasion he was not uniformly coherent. I like to imagine that most of what I say here will not require correction when it appears in the Official Report.
Paragraph 55 deals with agricultural credit. I am glad that it takes the precaution of saying:
While it would, of course, be foolish for a farmer to run into debt lightheartedly, the tendency in this country has been over-conservative in relation to the use of credit;
If we are to believe all that Fianna Fáil says, every farmer in the country can now get all the credit he wants, hire purchase, credits for the purchase of anything, including livestock, almost without limit. I rejoice however, to notice that where credit is given under State auspices, "the borrower will be required to avail of the services of the agricultural instructor in planning his farming programme." That was incorporated in the credit scheme inaugurated by us just before we left office and I am glad that it is being adhered to now. There is a danger that if credit is forced on farmers on too liberal a scale, without careful preliminary consideration they are in as great a danger as any other entrepreneur of using such credit to their own ultimate detriment.
I come now to Paragraph 56 which reads:
This White Paper does not deal with the important and complex problem of the marketing of agricultural products, as this is under examination by an Advisory Committee established in 1957. There is no doubt, however—
and I hope the Deputies will mark this well—
—that the bulk of our agricultural exports will continue to be marketed in Britain, and our trade relations with that country are, therefore, a matter of prime importance.
What a tragedy it is that that fundamental fact of our economy was discovered by Fianna Fáil 20 years too late. What a tragedy it is that Fianna Fáil campaigned this country in its day on the slogan "The British market is gone forever, thanks be to God," and that only three short years ago, the Minister for Lands, then Deputy Childers, and Deputy Vivion de Valera, were proclaiming from these benches that the bottom had fallen out of the livestock market and that farmers of this country had better make up their minds to get along without it. I only hope the fact that their conversion from that form of insanity as then enshrined in the printed word will provide that, whether in Government or in Opposition, they will never fall into the error of their past.
The eradication of bovine tuberculosis is dealt with in paragraphs 58 and 59 and I recall with gratification that the campaign for that eradication was inaugurated by our Government in the summer of 1954. That brings me to a matter of considerable moment. There is no use blinding our eyes to this fact, that both the Minister and I accepted it as necessary that in the initial stages of this campaign we should concentrate our efforts on those areas where there was a fair prospect of effective eradication through the purchase and the slaughter of reacting animals. That does not alter the fact that in Cork, Limerick, Tipperary, and parts of Waterford and Kilkenny, there remains a problem of such magnitude that unless preliminary progress is made the task of the eradication of reactors will be almost impossible.
There are districts in these areas where the incidence of tuberculosis amongst cows is up to 50 per cent. I want to put a proposal to the Minister. He has subtracted from the current price of creamery milk a levy which he says he wants to use in the event of his having to subsidise exports of butter this year. At present there is no prospect of there being any substantial exportable surplus. It is quite true, as the Minister said, one cannot say with confidence that there will not be any exportable surplus until we have seen the end of October, but we are dealing with a very urgent situation in which I think the Minister would be justified, amply justified, in taking a risk and I think I am in a position, on behalf of the Opposition, to gurantee our support, if he takes it. Unless there is some preliminary elimination on a voluntary basis of T.T. reactors amongst the dairy herds of Munster, it will not be possible to eradicate T.B. in those four counties in time, or in anywhere near time, to meet the deadline of 1964.
Therefore I put it to the Minister that he might, with perfect propriety, inaugurate a scheme forthwith, analogous to that which operated in the preliminary years in Great Britain, designed to induce farmers in the creamery areas to eliminate from their herds all reactors by offering a bonus of 2d. a gallon on creamery milk supplied to creameries from T.T. tested herds. Unless something of that kind is done, then when the Minister comes around to deal with these creamery counties, he will find a problem quite beyond the ability of the industry to deal with, and indeed, of the Exchequer. However, if during the remainder of the period in which he was clearing up the area west of the Shannon and the Ulster midland counties, there was in the dairy counties a gradual process of eradication which held forth to the farmers who undertook it the prospect of some real advantage to them, then when the Minister, whoever he might be, came to turn his attention to these counties, he would find a residual problem with which it would be possible to deal on lines similar to those at present being followed in the intensive eradication counties.
I want to say most categorically that I agree entirely with the Minister for Agriculture in saying that there is no time left for complacency and that it is a complete illusion to imagine that the five years period of grace accorded to us under the agreement effected with the British Government is a sufficient time to complete the process of T.B. eradication in this country. Without the best possible effort we will not succeed in meeting that, but unless some interim measures are taken in the intensive dairying areas I think the problem is going to be more acute than it must inevitably be, and I urge the Minister, particularly in the light of the present export situation, to take a risk on the proposal I now adumbrate to him. I believe in the long run it will pay off well.
It would suit me best to make no reference to another matter, but I think I would be running away from my clear duty if I were not prepared to advert to the deplorable situation which exists between the veterinary profession and the Department of Agriculture. I cannot touch upon that topic without expressing my profound regret to learn of the untimely death of the distinguished director of the veterinary services of the Department of Agriculture, Mr. P.A. Rogan. I know that matters of this kind are extremely difficult of adjustment, and I have perused the correspondence circulated by the Minister for Agriculture.
I believe I was in some small measure instrumental in persuading the Minister for Health to overcome a somewhat similar problem with the medical profession, by waiving all prior requisitions upon them and simply inviting them to meet him and discuss the situation, the differences between both sides. I believe that invitation has been issued and I hope that out of it will come a satisfactory settlement of the difficulties that did exist. I fully appreciate that the problems involved in this dispute with the veterinary profession are event more complex and difficult, and I cannot see how a difference of this kind can be equitably settled except on the basis of arbitration.
As I understand the situation, arbitration was offered by the Government with the additional undertaking that, in anticipation, the Government would hold itself bound by the award of that arbitration, and they have so held themselves bound. I appreciate that the members of this profession, largely as a result of the exertions of the Department of Agriculture, have all the benefits of reciprocity with Great Britain and thus are tempted to compare the rates of remuneration available in public service in Great Britain with the rates available here. I do not believe the differential between them is very great, considering all the attendant circumstances.
I do believe that all of us have a certain duty to our own country and, though I would not want to restrict any man carrying his talents to any part of the world where he can best use them, I think the members of this great and important profession must have present in their minds the immense importance it is to our people, as a whole, to have this problem of bovine tuberculosis eradication expeditiously dealt with. It cannot be expeditiously dealt with without the assistance of the veterinary profession and, if the veterinary profession find themselves in a difficulty at the present time, they ought to make some proposal, either to the Minister or to some intermediary, on the basis upon which they would be prepared to resume the normal relations which the Minister for Agriculture in this country is entitled to expect of them with the Department of Agriculture.
I do not want to say a word calculated to make a difficult situation more difficult, but I cannot depart from this matter without saying that in my dealings with the profession I found a ready willingness to collaborate. I want to say that at that time I knew a great many of the prominent members of the profession did not agree with my political beliefs and yet I had at their hands professionally, and in their corporate capacity, a ready willingness to collaborate but I think, on reflection, they must be bound to say it was not illiberally reciprocated by the Department of Agriculture and even by the Department of Finance.
Even if it involves them in some difficulty I would urge upon them, for the sake of the public interest generally, to take the initiative now themselves and to make some proposal to the Minister for Agriculture on the lines that, inasmuch as the arbitration award was not exhaustive but left some marginal matters outstanding, if they would accept the arbitration award, in so far as it was definitive, the Minister might discuss with them the marginal matters which were not definitively settled by arbitration and that, as a result of such an agreement, normal relations would be promptly restored. I hope they may see their way to make some gesture on those lines. I do not think I go beyond the limits of prudence in saying that less than that would be less than I would confidently expect of a profession which has so admirably served the farming community in the past and which, I have no doubt, is eager similarly to serve them in the future.
I have made one concrete suggestion to the Minister this evening and I want to make another. It is pretty well agreed amongst us that if there is to be increased production an indispensable sine qua non is evident —markets in which that increased production will be profitably disposed of. I believe it is not impossible to attain to that by negotiation of a trade agreement along the lines I have suggested. But, assuming we have achieved these two ends, I think there remains one vitally important additional adjunct to our present policy without which increased production, on the right lines, cannot be hoped for in the sufficiently early future.
The present system of agricultural advisory services is not adequate. Its inadequacy is largely due to the fact that there is no central control or direction, and its effectiveness varies with the efficiency of the various county committees of agriculture. In some counties you have admirable committees of agriculture who take a genuine interest in the advisory services. In others the very reverse is true but there is no consistent policy, no consistent direction and, I am sorry to say, in many cases there is no adequate, effective inspection and no proper relationship of the activities of any adviser to his own area. I believe that sooner or later, and the sooner the better, we ought to have a national agricultural advisory service and that should be based, in the initial stages, on one adviser to every three parishes, our ultimate objective being one adviser to every rural parish involving ultimately the employment of 800 agricultural advisers for the whole country.
I think it is a tragic thing at the present time that a large number of highly trained agricultural graduates are emigrating to Canada, Rhodesia, and the colonies in Africa because they cannot get employment in their own country while, at the same time, large areas in this country are virtually bereft of that kind of advice which, if it were available, could help materially to reduce costs of production and to expand production from our existing area of arable land. That whole project seems so self-evident to me that I find it hard to produce extensive arguments to support it. It is almost like seeking to delineate arguments to prove the inevitability of two and two making four, but it is urgent, it is necessary, and sooner or later it will have to be done.
The present Minister for Agriculture expresses the view that once he felt that if you went too fast you could outstrip the people's willingness to accept guidance in these matters and again he preferred to leave this to county committees of agriculture. I think it is too important a matter to leave to anybody else but himself. I am quite convinced that though people in certain areas may at first evince reluctance to avail of such services, they should never be thrust upon them but, if the services are made available, the initial reluctance to avail of them very quickly evaporates. I strongly urge upon the Minister that he should fix notice for such services and put it into operation without delay.
Lastly, I want to say that I am sick listening to people like the Taoiseach speaking of the agricultural industry and its featherbed. I am sick of listening to the Taoiseach and those who think they can lecture the farmers on the necessity for more hard work, lower costs and a greater readiness to compete in the markets of the world at a time when we have a tariff structure of the kind that at present exists. Nobody knows what protected industry collects from the consumers here annually. It must run into tens of millions, the bulk of which is paid by the small farmers and their equivalent, the agricultural workers.
All existing industry depends for its supply of raw materials on the purchasing power of the agricultural industry. We can get almost unlimited production from our land if we give the farmers who own it and work it a reasonable reward for their labours. They do not aspire to the 40-hour week; they do not aspire to overtime rates of pay for overtime work. It is their nature and custom to work as long as is necessary to get the result; what they do require and are quite determined to have is a fair reward for the produce they have to offer for sale. The time is long past, as most rational people here realised years ago, when domestic price levels are the exclusive controlling factor. In the last analysis, and as the agricultural industry is directed to capacity, it it the export price which will control the general price level of every branch of agriculture. We are not in a position to control the actual price realised in the export market and it is a wholly specious appeal to make to our farmers to say that they are as well able to produce as the Danish or Dutch farmers with whom they compete in our principal market which is the British market. While the Danish and the Dutch farmers do so produce there is no Deputy in this House who really knows all the facts about the price they get for their end product.
We have had one strange example in a certain gentleman of Danish extraction who occupies a very well remunerated industrial position in this country. He wanted to give us, the "ignorant Irish", a slight demonstration of what modern Danish methods could do if employed for the edification of the "ignorant Irish". So, with the unlimited capital of a large industrial concern he bought a farm in the richest part of Ireland and equipped it without counting the cost to run it, I believe, as a dairy and a pig farm so that the "ignorant Irish" might learn how these things really ought to be done. He has lost £40,000 to date while the "ignorant Irish" are still carrying on. He suddenly discovered what farming in our conditions requires. He suddenly discovered that skills exist outside his ken. He discovered that the chronic inferiority complex that afflicts the Fianna Fáil Party, which persuades them that anything from abroad is better than the domestic product, operated to deceive even the omniscient Dane who had begun to believe that too.
