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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 10 Mar 1960

Vol. 180 No. 3

Committee on Finance. - Motion by Minister for Finance (Resumed).

I was referring before Question Time to the volume of expenditure as disclosed in the Book of Estimates and to the fact that expenditure which arises consequent on Government policy is not confined to the figure shown on the face of the Book. We must also remember that the Government decided—we think it was one of the greatest errors ever committed by any Government since the State was founded—to withdraw food subsidies and the people are now being called upon every day of the week to pay sums which were formerly borne by the State. We must also recall that local expenditure has rocketed in consequence, on two counts; first the transference of charges formerly borne by the State to the local authority; and, secondly, the increased cost of running all public institutions as a result of wage increases consequent on the withdrawal of food subsidies. Another consequence was the increase in wages and salaries of all local government staffs which was absolutely necessary, in view of the reduced value of the £, to which Deputy Loughman referred.

We on this side of the House contend that it was extremely foolish on the part of the Government to have sparked off those successive rounds of wage increases by the complete withdrawal of food subsidies. We express that opinion, secure in the knowledge that we had given fair warning to the Government of the exact consequences that have flowed from their action. Not alone had the Government the advantage of opinion expressed inside the House or outside the House but they also had the sad experience of the partial withdrawal of subsidies in the Budget of 1952. The reasons advanced for the partial withdrawal could not be adduced for the Government's action on this occasion.

It will be recalled that the first time the Government interfered with the food subsidies, it cost the State infinitely more to compensate the organised classes in the community for the consequent increase in the cost of living. The Government had the sad experience of the increased cost to the State and of the resultant increased cost of production in industry and agriculture, to which the Taoiseach referred to-day as being such vital factors in our economy. The impact on the community is unassessable in view of the fact that these increases in production costs were responsible, as the Taoiseach admitted this morning, for pricing us out of world markets. Consequently, when considering the amount they expected to save in the partial reduction of food subsidies and the actual results, the Government must have learned a lesson that should have lasted for many years.

I shall not refer in any way to the political implications, to the fact that promises were made by the Government before they assumed office, that they included in the programme they presented to the electorate a promise that the subsidies would be left untouched. I am leaving all that aside and I am examining the withdrawal of the subsidies and the consequence of that action, apart from the political implications of assurances given to the electorate that strong control would be kept over the cost of living, that prices would be diligently guarded against further increases. We shall discard all that and apply ourselves to the economic consequences.

When the inter-party Government were in office, they applied themselves constantly during that period of almost three years to keeping down the cost of living. We felt that it was vital that the value of money should not drop further than it had already dropped. The investment of the £9,000,000 which it cost perhaps could not be defended in normal circumstances but it was one which we felt was desirable because the difficulty could not be overcome in any other way.

The Party which is now in Government went before the people three years ago, and presented a certain programme. They made a contract with the electorate and it was represented to very many people, not in the labour areas or in the urban areas but in the rural parts that, if they supported the return of the Fianna Fáil Party to office, a new strong Fianna Fáil Government—and the emphasis was on the strength of that Government—could and would cut from the amount of State expenditure the amount of money that had been spent in the subsidisation of food. On that basis they won a lot of conservative support at the last general election in particular parts of the country.

When the former Taoiseach took himself to the West his declarations there were entirely different. It was an assurance that there would be a diligent watch kept over bread prices and that they would be prevented from rising further. However, those people who thought there would be some gain from the reduction of State expenditure by the cutting away of food subsidies have been faced over the months and the years that have ensued with round after round of wage increases. The State were compelled to give their own personal increases because it would not be fair to leave them out after the private sector had been looked after. Consequently, we can claim that the first people to realise the impact on the ordinary man of the commitments he had to face because of the prices he had to pay for the necessities of life were the private employers, and that rounds of wage increases were given in the first instance by the private sector of our people.

We know in many small concerns what that meant. It meant that those who were continued in employment and got an increase in wages were no better off because purchasing power had been so much reduced, and that quite often they did not enjoy that constancy of employment which they had before. In the last resort, many employers, where it was possible for them to do so, passed on the increases to the community by way of increased prices for the goods they were retailing or manufacturing. That was the easiest way to recoup themselves for their increased expenditure but those who could not do that had to resort to the more undesirable method of reducing the number employed or curtailing the number of days of employment of those still on their payroll.

Following the increases given by the private sector, State personnel were given increases. The Taoiseach, when speaking today, was inclined to defend the action of the Government as if they would be assailed from this side for having given increases to State personnel. There is no danger of that occurring because nobody on this side of the House ever thought of a Wages Standstill Order. It was the people on this side of the House, including those in the Labour benches, who when they were in Government provided the machinery for arbitration for so many of our State personnel. Consequently, there was no need to defend that section of our community from an attack which was not going to come.

We can truthfully say, however, that those increases have lost their value because of the increase in the cost of living which would not have occurred if this Government had not been elected. Now a shrinking number in the community will have to face increased taxation for State expenditure of £20,000,000 in excess of what it was when this Government assumed office. There is not much use in going back over the years but one recalls that when this State was being run for a figure of £22,000,000 the assurance was given at that time by the incoming Government that they could run the country at £2,000,000 less than that figure. Now we see the figure rocketing to that on the face of the Book of Estimates, showing that the Government have no consideration for the people as regards the amount they must pay because of the increased cost of food as a result of the abolition of the food subsidies, the increased cost in the other necessities of life, the increased cost in the operations of local authorities resulting in increased rates, and so on. It is a vicious circle.

Some Deputies in the Government benches had my sympathy because in speaking they got no lead from the Minister for Finance in his statement. He made no reference to what the general policy of the Government was. In his usual manner he read a bald statement containing a lot of figures. There was no lead given to Deputies until the Taoiseach spoke today. Those Deputies who spoke before the Taoiseach must feel very sorry for themselves this afternoon, because they found the claims they were making were not supported by the Taoiseach. Their claims were completely discounted by his obvious pessimism this morning. There is no man living who can put a better face on any situation than the Taoiseach. It is no wonder the House was stunned by what he said and the way in which he said it, and it is some credit to the loyalty of his Party that he got the little applause he did get when he sat down. His speech today was in direct contrast to his usual bounce, the optimism and self-confidence he displayed, when proclaiming to the country at large that he would "get cracking," that with a strong Fianna Fáil Government elected all these difficulties would be resolved overnight. We have a new approach now in which he is apologetic. Five times in the course of a short speech he used the sentence "Nothing can be done about it." He was referring to the difficulty of the times: "Nothing can be done about it."

Where now are the confident proclamations that the Government would "get cracking" and would secure all these benefits for so many sections of our people? There is very poor evidence of their achievement in the Book of Estimates or in any forecast by the Taoiseach in his speech today. He said the Government were most grievously concerned by the recent rounds of wage increases and implied that any time now a wage increase was expected it would be transferred in toto to the taxpayers so that the public would be energised to act against these demands for wage increases. There is no reference at all to what sparked them off, to the fact that it was Government policy, that it was a breach of the contract made with the electorate.

The Taoiseach claimed that the whole benefit has been secured by the wages and salaried classes. I wonder is that true? We know that those in a position to demand their right to increases got them. However, there are many disorganised sections in the country today who have got no increase or perhaps the increase they got was not commensurate with the increase in the cost of living. The Taoiseach stated that agricultural incomes were declining. It is a great pity that Deputy O'Malley was not present to hear that. He went on to say that costs on the agricultural community were increasing since the beginning of 1958. Who caused them to increase? Was there sympathy or understanding in the levying of £100,000 on the small farmers, particularly the small dairy farmers, in the last month or two? What evidence is there of that? Was it the reduction in the subsidy on ground limestone or the levy of 1/- per gallon on milk supplied to the creameries?

Surely these are matters for the Estimates.

Deputy O'Malley was given certain latitude yesterday to go into details with regard to the dairying industry and I claim the same latitude.

All Deputies have been informed that a discussion on details is not permissible on the Vote on Account.

Whether permissible or not, Deputy O'Malley went into detail in discussing the dairying industry. Of course, I shall accept the ruling of the Leas-Cheann Comhairle but I do contend that the Taoiseach was correct this morning when he said that costs had risen for the agricultural community and that incomes were declining. I have just pointed out one instance in which income has drastically declined to the extent of £2 million, where the dairying industry is concerned, at a time when the people in that industry had the greatest challenge put up to them in the eradication of bovine tuberculosis.

What caused these costs to increase? What protection was given against the impact of the increase? The Taoiseach was right when he said that increased costs of production will price us out of external markets. Having regard to the travail which the country has experienced owing to the spirals in the cost of living and wages chasing the cost of living, we must remember that the repercussions of these increased costs do not become noticeable for some time after the increases have been given. The Taoiseach has informed us that, far from holding out hope that we had come to the end of this disturbing period, he foresaw that in the present year there would be further increases in the prices of essential commodities. Is this encouraging to the people who thought that the Government had exhausted their capacity for limiting the purchasing power of the people in their first Budget?

The Taoiseach said that the recent increase in the price of bread was due to increased wages. That is true, but what he did not say was that that recent increase was only one-eleventh of the total increase since the Government came into office. He could not assure the House that these increases were ended and that the price will not shortly take another surge upwards. That shows how much weight can be attached to Government promises at the last election when they intimated to the working classes that there would be no further increase in prices.

As a result of their deliberate policy, there has been an increase of 5½d. in the price of the ordinary loaf in the past three years. What has been the result of that? It has meant reduced consumption of bread and the closing down of mills as a consequence. This is all an indication of what has flowed from the Government's action in precipitating these increases in the price of the staple article of diet of the lowest paid classes of the community, the people who are least able to bear increases in the cost of living.

The Taoiseach also referred to the fact that some proportion of the increase in the price of bread is attributable to the higher grist in the loaf. Where now is the clamour for the 100 per cent. Irish loaf about which we heard so much and about which articles were written in the Irish Press? Is there anybody supporting the Government who now has a word to say in favour of the all-Irish loaf? When they were in Opposition, they were very confident in the claim that the all-Irish loaf would be an integral part of their policy and that they would be able to bring it about.

There were many wheat growers in this country who fell for that. The Taoiseach now says that an all-Irish loaf would be responsible for a further increase in the price of bread but that promise that they made was one that would have been redeemed within the framework of the present price of bread. We could have had the all-Irish loaf at a lesser cost than the cost of bread today, if the Government had realised the truth of the arguments put forward by us that they would not save by wiping out the food subsidies. State expenditure today shows that we were right in stating that it would not be reduced as a result of the Government action in cutting the subsidies.

It is well that the Taoiseach and his colleagues have now realised the effect of increased costs of production on the farming community and that considerable attention is being given by the Government to that matter. However, the time to realise that was before the action was taken which precipitated these increases. They are crying now over spilt milk and it is poor consolation to the farmers whose costs of production have been increased to know that the Government now realise the position in which they are. If the Government had listened to the criticism offered at that time and taken notice of what had happened when they previously reduced food subsidies, they would not now find themselves in their present position.

Last week, on the Adjournment Debate regarding the price of bread, the Minister for Industry and Commerce had only limited time in which to reply. Deputy O.J. Flanagan and I had referred to the impact of the withdrawal of food subsidies and the Minister said: "Why did you not do something about it?" It is like the case of a person knocked down on the road by a vehicle. Another motorist picks him up and takes him to hospital but the person maimed could not expect the second motorist to restore him to the condition in which he was before he was knocked down by the first one. The Minister apparently thought that the inter-Party Government should have done just that.

The facts are that the moneys used in the partial subsidisation of food were later spent in trying to compensate organised sections of the community for the subsequent increase in the cost of living and the same situation exists today. The figure in the Estimates has not been reduced by the moneys formerly spent on food subsidies and that is proof that that money has not been saved, although the Government promised at the time that they could reduce expenditure by that amount. Whatever control there was over prices has been completely abandoned by this Government since they took office.

When the Taoiseach was expressing sympathy over the increased costs that bear so heavily on the agricultural community, he did not advert to the fact that the rates situation is extremely serious, or that during these months every local authority throughout the country is closely examining its estimates—just the same as the Government examines State expenditure—and have found it difficult to prune the estimates because they have now to bear the heavy costs consequent on the legislation passed here. In spite of the claim made by some Deputies who support the Government it must be accepted that there is a feeling far from satisfaction in relation to the expenses involved in the operation of some of these schemes, particularly the Health Act.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance drew some solace from the fact that industrial production had increased in the last 12 months and now contributed so much to the easement of our external trading situation. That is true. Industrial production in recent times showed some healthy growth and, mind you, we are very happy about that. We feel that the fruits are now coming to hand of the action of Deputy Sweetman in amending the financial legislation which, through tax reductions, attracted foreign capital and foreign know-how to industry. I do not agree with the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance in his assertion that industrial exports were less liable to the crosswinds that blow from value fluctuations than agricultural exports.

When we examine, as we have had to examine, this imbalance of payments from time to time there is not alone the physical content or extent of our exports and the imports we have to bring in to be considered. The term of trade are important. This Government have been extremely lucky in the last year or two in having the terms of trade so much in their favour. It is well for them to say that they are in their favour and to warn the people that, should the worst happen and should they become unfavourable, it will be reflected in our balance of payments. If they try to claim that this happy position of very favourable terms of trade is something for which they may be thanked, they are making a claim that could boomerang on them in the future. We hope that will not happen but it could happen.

It is true these terms have been very favourable in recent times but when the Parliamentary Secretary refers to the fact that industrial exports have that advantage over agricultural exports, I wonder whether industrial exports would not be subjected more heavily to an unfavourable change in the terms of trade than agricultural exports? After all, agricultural exports, as far as we are concerned, are a one-way traffic and, when shipping terms are taken into account, the components of most of our industries have to be brought in and assembled for reexport and consequently there would be a heavier impact should shipping rates increase. It is true that we could succeed dramatically in increasing our exports for a short period, despite anything that can be said, is being said, and I suppose will continue to be said, against the agricultural community. Their contribution over a short number of years in increasing production and in doubling the value of our exports was a significant contribution to our economy. They could do that again and I do not think the recession in the cattle trade last year, and the consequent comparative advance in industry, is a factor which we can accept as being of such a permanent character that it will offset the importance of our agricultural exports in the years to come.

We find in the world an explosion of population, as it is described, and it is true that in recent times the food producing countries show indications of being called upon to expand their production and that markets will be available to them which they did not enjoy previously. The rising standard of living to which Deputy Esmonde referred this morning in the great teeming continent of Africa could be of value to a Government which was prepared to exploit the markets at its disposal. The fact, as Deputy Esmonde said, that we have such an enormous fund of goodwill in these countries, through having so many thousands of our missionaries there, could be effective in advancing the conditions of our people. The continent is there to be tapped and if we can provide the goods which they require there is a vast potential to avail of.

The most extraordinary statement in the Taoiseach's speech was his reference to marketing prospects. When we recall the extraordinary build-up and the hopes that were inspired in regard to something dramatic which was to come from the trade talks in Britain, we find the Taoiseach to-day in, for him in particular, extremely pessimistic form. He actually stated, speaking in this debate, that the future of this country will depend on what we do at home more than what can be achieved by any trade agreement. This is an extraordinary statement when we realise that the prelude to the expansion in production to which this country formerly aspired was sparked off by the 1948 Trade Agreement. The immediate response which flowed from the increase in prices offered to our producers was proof that to trigger off that increase in production, the Government in office, with the means at their disposal, are obliged to execute trade agreements that will encourage our people to increase production. Remember that if we find in the country to-day a reluctance, particularly among farmers, to produce more, to work harder and to do as they were asked by successive Governments, it is because you are faced with the response: "When we do produce more and when we work harder prices are reduced." The only way to overcome that is by having the Government get down to the fact that it is absolutely essential for producers in industry and in agriculture to know where they are going and to know that, when they work harder and produce more, what they produce will be saleable. Consequently it is unfortunate that the present Government are in this frame of mind that they say trade agreements have, to a very great extent, lost their effect on the community.

I would ask the Taoiseach to look into one aspect of the matter: I shall cite to him one instance where the failure of the Government in the past 12 months was responsible for the loss of a ready market in Germany for canned meat. I know that that market existed and that there were people in this country who were equipped for and ready to supply that market with this commodity but whoever was responsible failed to secure the agreement which would have made it possible to export that canned meat. That was a big loss to this country, and it is an instance of the Government slipping up in relation to their responsibility in the matter. It is a pointer to the discouragement that can ensue when the Government, as the Taoiseach did today, wash their hands of responsibility in relation to external markets, and say that it was now a matter for us, within our own shores.

I appreciate that when the Taoiseach, his Ministers, and their representatives were discussing marketing arrangements with the representatives of foreign countries, those representatives of foreign countries said to the Taoiseach:

"What are you doing about it? You must provide us with what we really want."

That is understandable, but the Taoiseach also said that these markets were wide open to us for us to do this job of work. Surely that is not so. Do we not all know there are quantitative restrictions on many goods which we are in a position to export. These goods could be exported if some Government achieved the removal of these very heavy restrictions—almost prohibitions—which exist in the form of quantitative restrictions in various countries.

When we look closely at the Book of Estimates, it is brought home to us that there is very little evidence of any attempt to whittle down State expenditure or to economic in any way. We find, in a few instances, that there is a drop-off in staff in one Department and an increase in another. It summarises the Government's attitude in relation to productive employment, and the application of work, when we find there is an increase of one in the staff of the President and a reduction of one in the Land Project staff. I am not suggesting that the gentleman who left the Land Project staff was accommodated in the Park, but it is indicative of the Government's attitude towards production that, in a case of prestige, precedence is given in the provision of staff over such a down-to-earth and helpful activity as the reclamation of land and that there should be a record here of some slight reduction in that staff. We find, too, that there are omissions from this Vote on Account—omissions which must be rectified within a few months, such as the Estimate for Wireless Broadcasting—and it will not be long before we shall find still further Supplementary Estimates introduced to provide these requirements. Consequently we cannot look on this already inflated figure as the be-all and the end-all of Government expenditure.

We have no evidence of economies, or care, being exercised in the expenditure of public moneys. People have been aghast at some of the expenditure, such as the unnecessary expenditure which was incurred in relation to the inauguration of Aer Linte when everyone was treated very generously and those who went to New York were put up at the Waldorf-Astoria. The people of this country who have to pay the piper do not feel very happy about those in charge of public affairs who permitted such expenditure. There is no doubt that those people who were brought to America did not expect to get V.I.P. treatment, and the treatment they received, grand as it was, had to be paid for by the ordinary taxpayers.

This Book of Estimates was a shock to the people, and the second shock was the statement of the Taoiseach to-day that, between now and Budget time, he forecasts that, far from the reduction in taxation which the people expected, and which the Government could implement, they would, in fact, have to face higher taxation in the Budget. Time will tell whether there were political implications in that forecast, but if it is a true forecast, and that comes about, I am afraid many more people will give up the ghost in relation to the future of this country and their future in this country. As we reduce the numbers of our employed population, seemingly we have to provide a larger sum for the remainder of our community.

There is no evidence in this series of estimates that the Government have been diligent in handling the affairs of the nation, and there is no hope that, at this stage, they have seen the light and realised that the load they are asking the people to bear is becoming unbearable. If it was unbearable, as the Tánaiste said, some years ago, what must it be to-day? The fact that so much of this increase is attributable, not to capital investment, not to something to which the people could look forward in the shape of dividends in the years to come, but to the fact that the Government are being compelled to pay for their own mistakes with the people's money as indicated by the increases we have to face, certainly is not to the credit of the Government.

If, having been three years in office, this is the best they can do, they will not maintain even what confidence is left in them in the country, unless they realise they should cut their cloth according to their measure in the same way as the ordinary householder has to do in the difficulties with which he has to contend.

I was very edified to hear the Taoiseach state this morning, that he and his colleagues in the Government were very perturbed and concerned because of the magnitude of this bill to meet public services and capital services during the next financial year. It was an honest admission of the serious position of our economy, that it is not able to bear this new demand now made on it.

We all realise that capital services are necessary and we do not complain because £17 million is demanded for that purpose in this Book of Estimates. Our regret is that we cannot provide more for services of that nature which will stimulate our economy, and provide employment for our people. The sum that is staggering is the sum to be provided for the public services, and that is not all, because the Minister indicated in his opening remarks on Tuesday evening, that he might have to bring in further Supplementary Estimates before the end of the next financial year.

It has come as no surprise to some of us that there is this increased demand this year. Because of the various Supplementary Estimates introduced in the past few weeks, it was obvious to those who were watching the economic trend carefully, that the Minister would be forced to seek extra money for the public services for the coming 12 months. The story does not end there. As well as this sum which nobody anticipated would reach the astronomical figure of £123½ million, the sum now demanded, it looks as if we shall have to provide something around £20 million for Central Fund services and, as well as that, in the coming 12 months, between £21 million and £22 million will be collected in rates. The rates will be the highest ever demanded, and they have gone on increasing over the years and have become a nightmare to the farming community.

It amazes me that, in our limited circumstances, and with our limited population of 2,900,000—we are in the same category as Greece, Turkey and Iceland—we, an undeveloped nation, should have such a bill presented to us. For that reason, I was pleased to hear that the Taoiseach and the Government realise our limited circumstances, because over the years, there was this tendency to provide money for this, that, and the other thing, but the day of reckoning must come and we shall have to face up to our responsibility with a little more realism than we have shown in the administration of our national affairs in recent years.

We have heard time and again that taxation has reached its limit. We have been hearing that for years, and I have no doubt the Minister for Finance was quite convinced of that, because last year he gave a relief of 6d. in the £ on income tax. We were all very grateful for that, but it is not alone the person who pays income tax who has to be considered. Where taxation is crippling is on the consumer goods we have to use in our everyday lives. Somebody pointed out today that while our incomes are lower, our taxation is also lower. Upon my word, this figure does not prove that. It proves very definitely, and clearly, that taxation in this country is staggering, and that it is the cause and the root of many of our problems, destroying the hope and faith of our young people in their own country. As well, we have every local authority at the moment at its wits' end trying to keep down rates which are such a nightmare to our people.

With regard to these rates and these local authorities, I cannot help recalling what I read in a sub-editorial in the Independent of 31st December of last year. There, it gave some statistics that have left an indelible impression on my mind—so much so that I can quote them all from memory. However, I refer to the source of my information, lest I should be asked by the Chair to supply it.

Our local authorities in March, 1932, had a total indebtedness of £15,000,000, whereas on 31st March, 1958, their total indebtedness was £137,000,000. Our county councils had an indebtedness, included in the gross figures I have given, of £7,000,000 in 1932 and an indebtedness of £58,000,000 on 31st December, 1958. As well as that, we had only one county council, according to the statistics given in this editorial, out of the 27 county councils—we have 27 county councils because of the two county councils in Tipperary, North and South Riding—that had an indebtedness of over £1,000,000 in 1932. In March, 1958, all but four of the county councils—that is, 23 county councils—had an indebtedness of over £1,000,000.

The same thing can be said for the urban councils and the city councils, such as Dublin and Cork. Dublin County Council which had an indebtedness of something like £624,000 in March, 1932, had, at the end of March, 1958, an indebtedness of £12¾ million and Dublin Corporation, at the end of March, 1958, had an indebtedness of £44,500,000. It may be contended that there is property there to meet that indebtedness. I would ask this question: What business could survive being run along those lines, piling up debt year after year and living on this false prosperity, this artificial prosperity, about which we hear so much? I wonder if we shall ever have a team of men in Government who will face with realism, determination and courage the financial problems that are such a nightmare now to the central Government and the local authorities and who will cut down expenditure and waste?

When this sum for capital services and for current revenue as it is called, I believe, or for public services, was in the category of two figures in millions, there was an outcry against extravagance, waste, overlapping, redundancy, misspending, and so on. Today, surely there should be a greater outcry? It is no wonder it is a matter of grave concern when we see this staggering bill that has to be met by all our people. Whether workers or producers, they have to pay their share of it. That is one of the reasons, I am sure, our people are leaving the country. I shall leave the subject of emigration aside for the moment.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted, and 20 Members being present,

With regard to local authorities and their responsibility, I should like to refer to the nightmare caused by officials from the Valuation Office who go around in search of new improvements in order to increase local revenue. I readily concede that the local authorities are responsible but I hold that where farmers extend their premises in order to provide for the increased production so much sought after to-day, it is grossly immoral to come along and assess them for increased rates because of their industry and anxiety to improve their holdings and provide that efficiency and increased production that is so much sought after and needed. It is all wrong. It is bad enough when one has to pay rates on the valuation of the house in which one lives. Many problems must be faced in rural areas and I think this should be stopped for all time.

I shudder when I think of the future and of the debt we are passing on to posterity. I fear we are betraying our trust in that respect unless we try to remedy the situation in the near future. I am not saying this for the sake of political propaganda or anything like that. I am giving my views. The Parliamentary Secretary smiles but that is not my motive. I sympathise with him and with the Minister who have to stand over this Vote on Account and defend it.

When we were linked to Great Britain, the Act of Union provided that we should contribute £2,000,000 per annum to the British Empire. We resented that. There were many outcries against that £2,000,000 paid over the years but at least we got services for it. Are we getting services proportionate today to what we got under an alien Government? You might say that times have changed and all that. I heard Deputy Loughman this morning talk about the little headway made here in the first ten years of this State. Let us be factual and honest about it. In the building up of a State, no doubt progress must necessarily be slow. Let us remember that there was a civil war during that period which we all regret—a civil war that has left its mark on this country. It is because of that cursed civil war that we are in the dilemna in which we find ourselves today.

Look around the country at the moment. There is no question about it that things are not good whether in village, town or countryside. I know at this particular moment in my own county of Cork, within 20 miles radius of Cork city, you could not buy a load of hay simply because the farmers have kept their cattle over the winter in the hope that prices would improve. We all believed they would. We were all told they would. Today they have not the fodder to continue them until the grass period arrives. That is a serious situation.

As well as that, we know that our farmers in the late Autumn—at least in Munster—sold their sheep for £2 less than they did in the previous 12 months. I concede that the price of sheep has improved since then but not to the extent that it did in 1958. The countryside has hit upon hard times and that will have its reaction in city, town and village. There is no doubt that the gloomy picture painted here today about the position in these areas is not exaggerated in the least. I regret to have to follow on that line. I would be dishonest with myself if I did not express my convictions honestly and state what my experience has been.

I was in a farmyard last Sunday where a widow with a young family was in charge. She was at her wits end in an effort to try to bring her livestock over the winter period. Further, this situation arose with her three weeks ago. She bought some T.B. tested cattle in County Limerick which had to be delivered on a Saturday afternoon. She could not get a C.I.E. lorry. There was a public haulier within a few miles of her. She went to him but he had no creels. He was getting new creels made for his lorry. She then had to get a carrier who had no licence. I admire both her and him; they broke the law to get these cattle shifted.

On the one hand, we ask our people to increase production and on the other we put handicaps in their way. They are not allowed to operate freely. We talk about freedom of the individual but there is no doubt that our people are circumvented by regulations to a point that is nauseating. If we had not half the laws we would be a happier country. I uphold the law at all times but there are some regulations which are a drag on our people and which are preventing them making the progress they would otherwise willingly and gladly make.

We had figures for our trade in the daily papers yesterday. They really provide food for thought as well. We are glad to see that there was an expansion in the last 12 months in the sale of industrial goods. We were all delighted at that. Nevertheless, our cattle still remain and I am afraid that the future for the cattle trade is black and doubtful. The only hope I see is the activity in England to grant licences to canneries that hitherto did not have them, in order to take our cattle for immediate slaughter. That may help the situation when cattle are left on the hands of our farmers.

I am afraid that we have too much pandering to votes in this country. I say with all honesty that I regret I ever got one because I have not been impressed by what I have seen in this House. If we were all more objective and more honest in our approach to the national problems of our people, we would have a better country and we would emerge into that nation of greatness, that Utopia, that we had in our dreams 30 odd years ago.

We heard a good deal of talk about efficiency experts. I do not want for one moment to cast any reflections on the Civil Service in this State. I said here, time and again, that we have the best civil servants in the world. Their efficiency and probity. I think, stand unchallenged and unchallengeable. They have no responsibility for this Vote. They have to do the things they are asked to do—the things that are imposed on them. I suggest that some efficiency experts should be got together from the various Departments to go through this Book of Estimates and do the necessary pruning. I feel confident that there is a good deal of overlapping in that magnificent Civil Service not because of any fault in the Civil Service itself but because of the system that has grown up here over the years.

We talk about increased production. Where has the farmer to turn to if he increases production? Where has he the market? Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary or the Minister, when replying, will tell us how far the £250,000 made available here two years ago has gone in the way of providing these markets for us.

I think it was Deputy Russell who talked about the Army and said that it was a non-productive institution. I intend no reflection on the Army whatever. I am quite proud of our national Army but, nevertheless, in peace-time and in modern times particularly, when there is the conviction that armies will become obsolete, that armies of technicians will replace the armies based on man power, I think we should be cautious and not recruit further men into the Army, thereby inflating the costs that are already too high.

A minute ago Deputy O'Sullivan talked about the President's Establishment. I want to make myself clear on that. I am not casting any reflection on the occupant of the Presidency in this country at the moment or his predecessor but we go in a lot for prestige in this country. I am afraid we are activated into that sort of thinking by what happens in the neighbouring countries or in the countries abroad. We have to realise that our resources are very limited. We have not the raw materials. We are not an empire. We have not amassed wealth. We have to cut our coat according to our cloth.

I spoke in the Presidential election on Sunday mornings at chapel gates in county Cork. Anywhere I went I gave what my honest conviction was —I did not know who was to be elected—that we could very well do without such an establishment and that we could reduce this Estimate in the morning by £54,000, if we decided to do it. When the present occupant leaves the Phoenix Park, the office of Taoiseach should be incorporated with that of the President. We are too limited in our resources here. We have not the resources for that prestige which is so much a feature of other more wealthy nations. By such things we are impoverished and we are making ourselves more impoverished by the administration of our own affairs. Let us be realistic and make an effort, even at this late hour, to improve the economic and financial situation of this country.

I think the last Deputy slightly overplayed his hand when he spoke of what he described as the staggering taxation on this country. The people have demanded services. They have demanded Government administration on the scale of the average European country. The facts are that the total taxation, both national and local, here represent a percentage of the national income which is comparable with half a dozen other modern North European States. We would naturally prefer the percentage to be lower, particularly because we still have a great deal of development to do and we like to offer the maximum incentive to those who wish to produce and market their goods here. The actual fact is that, by a strange coincidence, the governments of a great many—in fact, of most—European States take between 24 per cent. and 26 per cent. of the people's income in national and local taxation. There is nothing in the taxation level here which can be regarded as staggering in any sense in relation to average modern communities. It is no good trying to give the people the idea that the Government have some kind of cynical indifference to the people as a whole and that taxation has been mounting in such a way as to suggest that we are far outside the taxation levels in other European countries. That is not the case.

Naturally, we should like to reduce taxation as we did in the last Budget but the Taoiseach has made it clear that in this year we face unusual difficulties. It is just as well to repeat the main features of the increases in regard to these Estimates. Sixty per cent. of the Estimates increases relate to remuneration and are part of the relentless pressure exercised here to achieve living standards as near as possible to those of our neighbour across the water. That takes 60 per cent. of the whole of the increase straight away. The Taoiseach has made perfectly clear the attitude of the Government towards that increase in remuneration. He has made it clear that for a considerable period, there has been no increase in the cost of living and that the increases in remuneration that have been secured— although some of them have been very very well merited—are going to throw money into circulation which may have, to some degree, some effect in further increasing the cost of living.

One of the problems is that in many sectors of our economic life, increases in productivity are not possible, although wages increase and therefore industry and agriculture have to carry the burden of increasing productivity to a level that will cover the effects on the community in those sectors where it is not reasonable to expect any great growth in production.

I think it is true to say that increases in remuneration will throw about £15 million more into circulation. Of that sum, less than £3 million represents an increase in money circulation which has been achieved through an increase of productivity. The attitude we must have in that matter is that very clearly indicated by the Taoiseach —a relentless search for greater productivity. A warning must be issued again that although our industrial exports are increasing and although we appear to be able to surmount, at least to some degree, the recent increases in remuneration, unless exports grow rapidly and still more rapidly and unless we can face a possible reduction of the spending boom in Great Britain and European countries and are still able to compete and export our goods, we shall find that the efforts which the more energetic industrialists have made will be in vain.

Sixty per cent of the increases in the Estimates is covered by increases in remuneration. The further gross increase in expenditure is some £3 million. Of that amount, some £1,400,000 is for health and social services. I believe they represent inevitable increases in expenditure. Some £450,000 represents increases in the Votes for Forestry, the Land Commission and airport development and £250,000 represents a contribution by the central taxation authority to the relief of rates for farmers. The total of those items is £2,100,000. Of all the increases we are talking about, and of the total increase in the volume of Estimates, therefore, leaving aside the Central Fund, there is only about £1 million of an increase on which we can really argue and that covers a number of miscellaneous increases for various Departments, including the Department of Defence.

I want to mention these figures because they show at least that the Government have not allowed a holus-bolus expansion of all the services. It has not allowed Ministers of each Department simply to write up their expenditure with cynical indifference to the taxpaying public. The increases can be solidly accounted for in the manner I have indicated.

I heard Deputies on the Opposition benches suggest that part of the troubles that afflict this country are due to the removal of the subsidies. I wonder what the taxpayers would do if we were now to impose sufficient taxation to restore the subsidies to the extent of about £9,000,000. So far as I can judge, the increase in taxation would be something in the nature of several shillings on income tax, 1/- or 1/6 on petrol per gallon and vast increases on tobacco and alcoholic liquor which, of course, could not be collected because the consumption would decline to the point where the revenue would never be subscribed.

I want to deal in some detail with some observations made by Deputies on the Opposition benches in relation to the position of our cattle trade because there is—for them—some very convenient and ready propaganda going around the country to the effect that the Government are in some way responsible for cattle prices being bad and suggesting that whenever the Opposition is in power, the cattle prices are good. As the House knows, in the Programme for Economic Expansion, the Government, in investigating the possibility of increased production, saw that the greatest hope lay in increasing the sales of our cattle and cattle products abroad. It is believed that the consumption of meat should fairly rapidly increase in the course of the next 20 years, and that markets will be available. The programme suggested that we could safely increase our cow population from 1,200,000 to 1,500,000, provided a number of conditions were observed and provided the increase in the cattle population was associated with changes of a very necessary kind, the major one being the eradication of bovine tuberculosis.

For the purpose of forwarding that aspect of policy, the Government, as everybody knows, applied subsidies to fertilisers and engaged in a number of agricultural schemes of progeny testing, improving the breeding of cattle, providing increased grants for silos, in addition to maintaining and, in some cases, increasing the grants available for the policies formerly established such as the farm building grants (1947) for soil analysis (1945) and for land reclamation which began in 1939 and was later mechanised by Deputy Dillon in 1948. These new phases of policy were additional to those in force before and most of which were promoted by the Fianna Fáil Government.

In regard to the elimination of bovine T.B., at least some progress has been made, although I think we all agree that it is desperately necessary to step up the eradication programme. For that purpose, it will be noted that a very large sum has been placed in the Book of Estimates. The amount spent on Bovine T.B. eradication has increased since 1957 from £306,000 paid in compensation to £3,334,000, indicating that at least a great effort is being made to deal with the problem and indicating that the Government are prepared to supply all the money and all the resources within the Department necessary to do the job.

The cattle population has increased from some 4,400,000 to 4,700,000 from 1953 to 1959 and the number of young cattle has increased by 150,000. In relation to this problem of the disposal of cattle it is well to have some figures which show a balanced position. The total output of cattle for all purposes, both for home use and for exports, in 1953 was numbered at 821,000 and valued at £40,000,000. That increased in 1958 to 973,000 valued at £50,000,000. In 1959 a set-back took place which is accepted by everybody as being due, first of all, to the severe drought which made the feeding pastures in Great Britain inadequate to take new stocks of cattle and, secondly, to certain difficulties associated with the eradication of bovine tuberculosis.

In 1959 the total output of cattle fell back to 850,000 cattle valued at £44,000,000. That still shows that there has been progress since 1953, although it is not sufficient. Equally, exports decreased for the first nine months of 1959, but thereafter the position has become much more satisfactory and in all the successive months the number of cattle exported showed an increase over the corresponding period in the last three months of 1958. We can only hope that that trend will continue, although we must admit that there will be manifold difficulties associated with the whole of the cattle trade until the programme for the eradication of tuberculosis is fully completed.

When we come to this question of cattle prices and to the talk going around the country about cattle prices being disastrously low and the Government being responsible, it is just as well to take cattle prices out of politics in this country——

Hear, hear!

——because the least said about cattle prices in relation to politics the better. I propose to recall for the House the average prices paid for cattle of two different ages in every year since 1953 so that the farmers will at least know that there are difficulties in relation to the disposal of our cattle, partly related to the drought in 1959 and partly related to the fact that there are some periods when young cattle are bought too dearly in one part of the season resulting in a negligible profit being made when they are sold in a later part of the season.

I did not say a word about prices. The trouble in the South is how to dispose of them. There is no demand for them at the moment.

I was not referring to what the Deputy said. I am aware of the fact that there are periods when it is difficult to dispose of cattle. The Deputy knows the position has improved for certain classes of cattle. He only has to see the figures to know that more cattle have been disposed of. There may be still difficulties but I am referring to the general position. The following were the average prices of one to two years old store cattle over the past few years. In 1953 the price was £31. 4. 6.; in 1954, £31. 8 0.; in 1955, £35. 2. 0.; in 1956, £29. 13. 0.; in 1957, £35. 14. 0.; in 1958, £42. 7. 0; in 1959, for the first half, £43. 14. 0.; and for the second half, £37.

What was the figure for 1956?

That was the time the bottom had fallen out of the cattle trade? We got that headline in the Irish Press.

The Deputy is talking nonsense if he suggests that the average prices of cattle for the whole of 1956 could be accounted for by any headline in any newspaper. The farmers and the cattle dealers have surely more intelligence than the Deputy ascribes to them. I never heard such nonsense.

The Minister said it himself in Athlone.

Deputy Lynch must keep order.

The following were the prices for two to three year old stores: 1953, £54 17s.; 1954, £55; 1955, £60 17s.; 1956, £48 16s.; 1957, £56 16s.; 1958, £61 3s.; for the first half of 1959, £62 14s.; for the second half of 1959, £56 6s.

As I have said, let us take cattle prices out of politics. The facts are that the prices for cattle are dependent, in the first instance, in the maintenance and improvement of the Anglo-Irish Agreement in relation to their cattle prices with ours and, secondly, to the seasonal variations which take place in British cattle prices and, thirdly, to the time and operation of the price factor which has had very severe effects at certain times when, for one reason or another, our people are unfortunately placed in the position of buying young cattle very dearly and having to sell them at little or no profit. That, in turn, is related to weather conditions. Of course, for a considerable time the effect of our bovine tuberculosis position here will inevitably affect cattle prices. One hopeful indication of what may come in the future is that Aberdeen Angus store cattle from accredited herds can be sold for from £1 10s. per cwt. to £2 per cwt. more than for beasts that do not come from accredited herds, showing what we hope to be able to achieve when this campaign has finally succeeded.

It is absolutely a fact that these prices show a general stabilisation in the price position for the agricultural community. It is for that reason in the Programme for Economic Expansion it is clearly indicated we would have to sell more of better quality at lower costs of production and hope in that way to increase the real income of the agricultural community. There is no other way out. There is no secret formula by which agricultural incomes can expand. It is very good to see the number of farmers all over the country who have been able to make a greater success of their farming operations in the last ten years because of their having adopted modern methods and because of their having been able to improve their grass lands and provide for themselves better stock at lower costs per acre, in that way being able to increase their net profit. At the same time we have had in the last two years severe weather conditions, for which this Government is not responsible. It is no good casting an atmosphere of gloom over the debate on this Estimate—it will not help the discussion of our economic position—when we know that a considerable part of the gloom relates to the particular circumstances of the agricultural industry in the last two years which have been associated with unusual weather—in one year a great destruction of corn crops and in the second year a drought which accentuated the difficulties in the disposal of cattle in relation to the necessity for the eradication of bovine tuberculosis.

We have been hearing talk to-day about the cost of living, as though we were responsible for the whole cost of living in the last six years. It is well to remind the Opposition that the cost of living went up 11 points during their last period of office, as it has gone up 11 points since. We shared office during this period of increase in the cost of living, which is partly related to circumstances that have been evident over the whole of the Sterling Area and partly due in our own case to local factors, such as our decision to end the system of taking money out of one pocket and putting it into another by abolishing the food subsidies.

Does that apply to all subsidies?

I was talking about the food subsidies that were abolished.

What about fertilisers and agricultural subsidies?

Those subsidies are designed to increase substantially production from agriculture.

Is it not like taking money out of one pocket and putting it into another?

The final result is increased production. As I said, from the point of view of the agricultural community, the actual income per head of those occupied in agriculture in this country has increased by a certain degree since 1953. The figure for the output of livestock and livestock products per person employed in agriculture has increased from £291 in 1953 to £335 in 1959 and that is due, in turn, to the heartening increase in production that took place until this bad weather struck us, and partly due to the fact that there has been fairly continuous migration from the land which has left fewer people in enjoyment of whatever agricultural incomes were available.

I want to make it clear that we must face up to reality, as far as migration from the land is concerned. Sometimes, because of its severity in certain areas, it is very human and very natural for people to speak and think of it as an acute human problem, affecting us only, but if we study the statistics of countries abroad, we find, taking the actual figure of the number of persons per hundred thousand occupied in agriculture, our migration from the land is fifth in order out of ten countries, but the position here is unlike that in other countries.

As the Taoiseach said this morning, we have not yet established one half of the industries we need, in spite of all the incentives we have offered, to employ these people. Migration from the land is a process which is regarded in economic circles in Europe as inevitable and it is liable to continue for a long time. Though we can provide better housing, better sewerage, better water services, though we can provide afforestation work and improve communications, and though parish societies can do their utmost to reduce this migration to the lowest possible degree, the fact remains that this is a universal tendency which is going on in every country in the world.

Again, Deputies have said a great deal about the present difficulties associated with the farming industry. The Government recently have published their plans for improving the marketing both of dairy products and of pig products and I have not heard any criticism of any responsible kind from the Opposition of those plans.

First of all, they provide for changes in the Pig Marketing Commission so that we can provide a more orderly marketing system for our pig products. I should add that there will have to be a great many changes in outlook on the part of the community effected before it is possible to succeed. At the same time, we are agreeing to give into the hands of a Dairy Produce Board the handling of marketing of a considerable portion of the dairy products sold from this country, again in the hope that, by more modern methods, we can expand the industry.

I believe if the bovine T.B. eradication campaign is fuily successful, and if the agricultural community take full advantage of the Government's assistance, valued in the last year at £11,500,000, the new assistance provided by the Department of Agriculture, as compared with some £8,000,000 in the year 1956-57, and if, at the same time, we can have more improvement in the pig and bacon industry through the reorganisation which we hope will take place, then there is steady scope for growth in farmers' real income over the next decade.

As I said, it has been made perfectly obvious and clear in the Programme for Economic Expansion that we will find difficulties, but that the Government would inject as much capital and as many grants as possible, and provide educational and technical assistance wherever it was required so that we could face the difficulties. I have not yet spoken about the provision of agricultural credit. I have omitted to speak of the fact that the commercial banks have quite obviously changed their attitude towards lending money to farmers for specific production projects, which is well reflected by the increase in bank loans to farmers of something like £20,000,000 over the past few years. Though there are still submissions made regarding possible changes in the method of advancing credit to farmers, I think on the whole the agricultural community is reasonably satisfied that there has been a great improvement in the position compared with what it was some years ago.

I wanted to say these few words simply in order to get away from this picture of gloom, and to try to dispose of the idea that because there have been acute difficulties in the cattle trade in the past six months, the Government are damned, whereas most of the sensible farmers in the country know the reasons for the difficulties. There is no good in going around the country and trying to blame the Government for the level of cattle prices because the level of cattle prices shows a considerable degree of stability since 1953. That is precisely the reason why the Programme for Economic Expansion indicated certain trends of policy to enable the farmers to increase their income in spite of that stability in agricultural prices. This upper limit of farm prices is ultimately due to the amount which the British housewife will pay for our products in competition with the many other things she is now buying, from television sets to radio sets and holidays.

The whole of the agricultural price level has a certain bearing on that and we hope that, with the eradication of bovine T.B., the price of cattle will improve in relation to farm costs and, when all herds in the country are accredited and when marketing has been improved, we hope that the quality of the cattle will be better as a result of improved grassland, so as to provide a helpful increase in the farmers' income.

I do not think I need say any more on this at the moment except to reflect on the fact that very few people in Opposition have suggested practical measures whereby we could further provide incentives for industry. We are providing an increased volume of credit, together with grants and other inducements to industry. We are remitting taxation on exports. We are increasing the capital available for Bord na Móna, and they are going to expand enormously the production of turf for conversion into electric power during the period up to 1968.

We are providing more for the expansion of aviation and increased sums for arterial drainage. An extra £400,000 has been made available for arterial drainage. There have been increased grants for fisheries, the expansion of which, I think, will be quite a notable feature in the calendar year 1959 as compared with 1958. The whole of that work is proceeding at a good pace and yet we have had no constructive suggestions from the Opposition showing where we have missed out on something, or saying that there are gross omissions in the Government's campaign for increasing production.

As the Taoiseach has said, as I and all of us have said, the Government can provide more capital for State companies engaged in productive work and they can even initiate new State companies where necessary, but, in the end, it is the confidence of the people and the initiative of industrial promoters which will bring about the increase in employment which we all so much desire.

In his closing remarks, the Minister expressed the desire to get away from the picture of gloom which unfortunately pervades the country at the moment and I certainly——

There is no gloom throughout the country. The gloom is on the faces of the Opposition.

The Taoiseach brought in the gloom this morning.

I certainly would not wish to place any obstacle in the Minister's way in dispelling gloom but the Minister must face up to the realities of the situation. He and his Government should know by now that they cannot wish themselves away from the real situation, which is a truly gloomy one. They can do that only by action and by the performance which was promised before the last general election.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
The Dáil adjourned at 5 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 15th March, 1960.
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