Defence Forces (Pensions) (Amendment) Scheme, 1960—Motion of Confirmation.

Minister for Defence (Mr. K. Boland)

I move:—

That the Defence Forces (Pensions) (Amendment) Scheme, 1960, prepared by the Minister for Defence, with the consent of the Minister for Finance, under sections 2, 3 and 5 of the Defence Forces (Pensions) Act, 1932, and Section 4 of the Defence Forces (Pensions) (Amendment) Act, 1938, and laid before the House on the 30th day of June, 1960, be confirmed.

Deintear na Scéimeanna Óglaigh na hÉireann (Pinsin) fé údarás na nAcht Fórsaí Cosanta (Pinsin), 1932 go 1957, agus tá baint acu le pá scoir, pinsin agus aiscí i gcóir nó i leith comhaltaí de na Buan-Óglaigh agus i gcóir comhaltaí de Sheirbhís Altranais an Airm agus den tSeirbhís Seipléineachta. De réir Ailt 4 den Acht de 1932, ní thiocfaidh aon scéim phinsin i bhfeidhm go dtí go ndéanfar í do leagadh fé bhráid gach Tí den Oireachtas agus í do dhaingniú le rún ó gach Teach acu sin.

Den Airteagal is tríocha atá sa Scéim, is mínithe na ceithre chinn thosaigh. Beartaítear i seacht nAirteagal (uimhreachta 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15 agus 17) éifeacht foirmeálta a thabhairt de mhéaduithe ar an bpá scoir agus ar phinsin atá de réir na méaduithe do phinsinéirí Stáit, i gcoitinne, a húdaraíodh ag an Aire Airgeadais sa Ráiteas ar an gCáinaisnéis, Aibreán, 1959. Tá méadú de 6% i gceist do dhaoine a hurscaoileadh roimh 1 Meán Fómhair, 1949, agus do bhaintreacha agus leanaí áirithe; agus méadú de 4% do dhaoine a hurscaoileadh idir 1 Meán Fómhair, 1949, agus 1 Samhain, 1952. D'aontuigh Dáil Éireann leis na méaduithe seo sa mheastachán a ritheadh ar an 22ú Iúil, 1959, agus táid á ioc ó Lúnasa, 1959, i leith; £10,000 sa bhliain an garchostas.

Tagrann ocht nAirteagal eile (uimhreacha 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18 agus 20) do na méaduithe ar an bpá scoir agus ar phinsin, a déanfar ar 1 Lúnasa, 1960, de réir na méaduithe do phinsinéiri Stáit, i gcoitinne, a luaigh An tAire Airgeadais sa Ráiteas ar an gCáinaisnéis 27ú Aibreán, 1960. Sa chás seo, deonfar méadú de 7½% ins na pinsin atá iníoctha do dhaoine a hurscaoileadh roimh 1 Meán Fómhair, 1949, agus de bhaintreacha agus leanaí áirithe, agus iocfar méadú de 5% ar phinsin daoine a hurscaoileadh idir 1 Meán Fómhair, 1949, agus 1 Samhain, 1955. Beidh costas £10,000 sa bhliain airgeadais reatha agus £17,000 i mbliain iomlán, ar na méaduithe seo.

Forálann seacht gcinn den dá Airteagal déag eile (uimhreacha 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 28 agus 29) go ndéanfar méaduithe gnáthacha ar an bpá scoir, ar phinsin agus ar aiscí; táid seo riachtanach—de bhun méaduithe ar an bpá sheirbhíse—chun an ceangal atá idir luach saothair agus sochair scoir a choimeád. Baineann Airteagail 21 agus 23 le méadú ar an bpá sheirbhíse a deonadh do roinnt oifigigh pósta i Márta, 1956, agus nár deineadh méaduithe cuí dá bharr ar an bpá scoir agus ar aiscí sna Scéim Leasaitheach 1957 agus 1959. Faoi Airteagail 22 agus 24 méadófar na sochair scoir d'oifigigh de dhroim na méaduithe ar an bpá sheirbhíse atá i bhfeidhm ó 1 Aibreán, 1958 agus 15 Nollaig, 1959.

Ar mhaithe le soiléireachta agus ionus go mbeidh na méaduithe uilig ó 1 Aibreán, 1958, agus 15 Nollaig, 1959, le chéile, táthar ag déanamh athachtú sa Scéim seo ar na forálacha sa Scéim Leasaitheach 1959 le haghaidh méaduithe ar an bpá scoir agus ar aiscí d'oifigigh faoi leith díobhtha seo. Na forálacha méaduithe sa táible in Airteagal 22 agus in Airteagal 25 a bhaineas le céim LefteanaintGhinearál, ní bhaineann siad ach le hoifigeach a scoir ar 1 Eanáir, 1960; de bhrí nach bhfuil LefteanantGhinearál ar bith san Airm agus nach raibh an pá sheirbhíse lena mbaineann na sochair scoir seo, mar sin, á íoc ach amháin don oifigeach a scoir sa chéim sin ar 1 Eanáir, 1960 (An Ceann Foirne atá imithe). Forálann Airteagail 28 agus 29 go méadófar pinsin agus aiscí d'O.N.C. agus fir de réir na méaduithe ar an bpá sheirbhíse a deonadh ón 15ú Nollaig, 1959, amháin bhí foráil sa Scéim Leasaitheach 1959 do na méaduithe a ceaduíodh in Aibreán, 1958, do na céimnigh seo.

Tá leasuithe ar an bPríomh-Scéim beartaithe sna cúig Airteagal eile (uimhreacha 19, 26, 27, 30 agus 31). I gcás oifigigh a fuair pinsean seirbhíse míleata (i leith tréimhse roimh I Deire Fómhair, 1923) foráltar, faoi Airteagal 19, dámhachtain nua pá scoir a dhéanamh—a bheidh bunaithe ar sheirbhís ó 1 Deire Fómhair, 1923, amháin. Fuair oifigigh áirithe, nach raibh i dteideal pinsean seirbhíse míleata nuair a scoir siad le hÓglaigh na hÉireann, pá scoir bunaithe ar sheirbhís roimh Deire Fómhair, 1923; ina dhiaidh san, taréis éirí lena n-achuiní, dámhadh pinsín seirbhíse míleata dóibh i leith tréimhsí gur dámhadh pá scoir ina dtaobh cheana. Tá an tAirteagal seo riachtanach chun dámhachtain nua pá scoir a chur ina n-áit sin nach mbeidh na tréimhsí seirbhíse siúd san áireamh iontú; beidh feidhm ag na méaduithe fén gCáinaisnéis de 1959 leis na dámhachtain nua seo.

Bhi sé ar intinn so Phríomh-Scéim nach mbeadh feidhm ag an t-ardú de 20% sa phá scoir d'oifigigh Chor Liachta an Airm ach amháin i gcás oifigigh Liachta agus oifigigh fiaclóireachta so Chór agus nach mbeadh sochar ar bith ag dul d'oifigeach a bhí ar ceangal leis an gCór le haghaidh gnó de shaghas éigin eile; tá an pointe seo níos soiléire anois i bhfoAirteagal 26 (1). Maidir le mir (2) den Airteagal, tá sé i gceist go mbeidh an sainmhíniú ar oifigeach "seirbhíse speisialta" chun críocha pá scoir ar aon dul, comh fada agus is féidir, leis an sainmhíniú sa Rialachán Óglaigh na hÉireann a bhaineas le pá sheirbhíse den oifigeach chéanna.

Tá srian ar phinsin baintreach sa Phríomh-Scéim faoine gcaithfear an pinsean sin a laghdú de pé mhéid a thuilleann an bhaintreach as airgead poiblí; cuireann Airteagal 27 deire leis an srian seo.

Faoi Airteagal 30, beidh cead ag oifigeach tréimhse ar bith seirbhíse i gCúltaca na nÓglach nó i gCór Tréineála Oifigeach a áireamh mar sheirbhís inphinsean más rud é go raibh sé i dteideal an tréimhse sin a dhealú ón a aois chun go mbeadh sé cáilithe le haghaidh ceapacháin mar oifigeach de na Buan-Óglaigh.

Mar chríoch, tá na forálacha a bhaineas le leanai uchtaithe sa Scéim Leasaitheach 1959 á bhforléanadh ionus, sa chás go bhfuil leanbh uchtaithe ag fáil liúntas as na cistí poiblí toisc seirbhís a thug a thuismitheoirí nádúrtha, go laghdófar de mhéid an liúntais, pinsean pósta a gheibheann an t-athair uchtála de bharr an linbh.

Tá súil agam go mbeidh na forálacha sa Scéim níos soiléire ón athchoimre seo; má fheiceann éinne deacrachtaí ar bith, beidh áthas orm déileáil leo nuair a bhead ag rá an focal scoir.

This Scheme is made pursuant to the Defence Forces (Pensions) Acts 1932 to 1957. It will not come into force until it has been confirmed by a resolution of each House of the Oireachtas.

The first four of the thirty-one Articles in the Scheme are definitory. Seven Articles (Nos. 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15 and 17) relate to increase in retired pay and pensions (authorised in the 1959 Budget) amounting to 6% for personnel discharged before 1st September, 1949 (and for certain widows and children) and 4% for personnel discharged between 1st September, 1949, and 1st November, 1952. The increases, which are similar to those for State pensioners, generally, were approved by DáilÉireann in an estimate introduced by the Minister for Finance on 22nd July, 1959, and they are being paid since August, 1959, at a cost of approximately £10,000 a year.

Eight other Articles (Nos. 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18 and 20) are designed to give effect to the increases to be made on 1st August, 1960, in retired pay and pensions (in accordance with the 1960 Budget) amounting to 7½% for personnel discharged before 1st September, 1949 (and for certain widows and children) and 5% for personnel discharged between 1st September, 1949, and 1st November, 1955. The increases, which are similar to those for State pensioners, generally, will cost £10,000 in this financial year and £17,000 in a full year.

Seven of the remaining twelve Articles (Nos. 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 28 and 29) are concerned with normal adjustments of retired pay, pensions and gratuities related to service pay increases. Articles 21 and 23 follow a service pay increase for certain married officers in March 1956 while Articles 22 and 24 provide for adjustments to accord with officers' service pay increases in April, 1958, and December, 1959. The increase provisions in the 1959 Scheme for certain of these officers are being re-enacted here so as to bring all the relevant figures together for convenience of reference. In the table to Article 22 and in Article 25 the references to a Lieutenant General relate only to the officer in that rank who retired on 1st January, 1960, because the service pay to which these adjustments relate was paid only to that officer (the former Chief of staff) and there is no other Lieutenant General serving. The pension and gratuity increases in Articles 28 and 29 are associated only with the Service pay increases granted to NCOs. and Men in December, 1959; the April, 1958, increases for these ranks were granted by the 1959 Scheme.

Finally there are five Articles (Nos. 19, 26, 27, 30 and 31) which introduce amendments to the Schemes. Article 19 is necessary because certain officers, who were not eligible for military service pensions when they retired from the Defence Forces, received retired pay based inter alia on service before October, 1923, and, having later succeeded on appeal, in their military service pension claims, were awarded military service pensions in respect of periods already covered by the retired pay awards. This Article provides for the replacement of the latter awards by new awards based on service since 1st October, 1923, which will therefore exclude the overlapping service periods. The Article also applies the 1959 Budget increases to these new awards (for which the 1960 Budget increases are provided in Article 20).

It was the intention that the provision in the principal Scheme (Article 13) for a 20% increase in retired pay for Army Medical Corps Officers should benefit only medical and dental officers—but not officers attached to the Corps for other duties. Paragraph (1) of Article 26 serves to make this clear while paragraph (2) re-words the definition of a "special service" officer to bring it closer to the definition of such an officer in the Defence Force Regulation relating to service pay.

Article 27 repeals the provision which requires a widow's pension to be reduced by the amount of her earnings from public funds.

Article 30 permits the reckoning, as pensionable service, of any period of an officer's service in the Volunteer Reserve or in an Officers' Training Corps which he was allowed to deduct from his age in order to qualify for appointment to be an officer of the Permanent Defence Force.

Article 31 provides that a married pension, which an adopted child attracts to his adopting father shall be reduced by the amount of any allowance from public funds enjoyed by the child by reason of services rendered by its natural parents.

Should there be any aspects of the scheme which are not clear I shall be happy to furnish any further information required when I am concluding.

General MacEoin

This new Order confers considerable benefits on serving and retired members of the Defence Forces. In so far as it does that, it is welcome to me and to this Party. It is difficult for serving members of the Forces and members of this House to find out exactly where anybody stands in relation to the Order and what benefits are actually being conferred. These benefits can be determined and ascertained only after considerable time and work by the Department of Finance and the Department of Defence. The time has arrived when—as the Minister has done in one case here, that is, bringing the Schedule together for easy reference—there should be a general amalgamation of all the Orders to clarify the position and give examples of the benefits conferred. In that way the members of the Forces and of the Oireachtas would be clear about the benefits being conferred.

I am glad the Government have decided to give these increases. The Minister says:

"The increases, which are similar to those for State pensioners, generally, were approved by Dáil Éireann in an Estimate introduced by the Minister for Finance on 22nd July, 1959, and they are being paid since August 1959 at a cost of approximately £10,000 a year."

Then he says:

"Eight other Articles (Nos. 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18 and 20) are designed to give effect to the increases to be made on 1st August 1960 in retired pay and pensions (in accordance with the 1960 Budget)."

Why is that money not being paid from an earlier date than the 1st August?

Mr. K. Boland

That is the position under the Budget.

General MacEoin

They were dealt with on the Budget. They were granted to everybody else. Why is it that the Budget granted increases to other people and that they got them?

Mr. K. Boland

No. They all date from the 1st August. All the increases in pensions were from 1st August. It is the exact same.

General MacEoin

It is well that this complies with the general plan. The Minister says that the increases, which are similar to those for State pensioners, generally, will cost £10,000 in this financial year and £17,000 in a full year. On page 2 of his statement we read: "The increase provisions in the 1959 Scheme for certain of these officers are being re-enacted here..." I should like to see the whole thing brought together so that it would be easier to understand. However, there is an improvement.

The Minister says that five Articles —Nos. 19, 26, 27, 30 and 31—introduce amendments to the Schemes. Where a person was not eligible for a military service pension when he retired but, under the 1949 amending Act, since qualified, a benefit was conferred on him. Is it intended to leave him as he now finds himself? Is it now intended to take anything from him?

Mr. K. Boland

In the case of an Army officer who was awarded a military service pension—say, under the 1924 Act—his Army service counted only from 1st October, 1923, in reckoning his retired pay under the Defence Forces Pensions Schemes. The officers concerned here, at the time they retired from the Army, had not been granted military service pensions. Therefore, their whole service in the Army counted for retired pay, unlike their colleagues who got military service pensions. Subsequent to retiring, they succeeded in their appeals and got military service pensions. They are now being brought into line with their colleagues whose service dated only from October, 1923, because they had other pensions.

General MacEoin

Then, the people who qualified late did get an advantage?

Mr. K. Boland

They did, for the intervening period, until we make this amendment.

General MacEoin

The Minister will now take it from them?

Mr. K. Boland

Because, in the meantime, they have been awarded military service pensions which they had not got when they had the higher retired pay.

General MacEoin

If they had the military service pension from 1924, when it was granted, they would have been in receipt of it for a considerable time. They are losing the benefit now? The Minister is taking it from them?

Mr. K. Boland

They did not succeed in convincing any previous referees that they were entitled to a military service pension.

General MacEoin

The benefit the 1949 amending Act conferred on them is now being lessened. In a nutshell that is what it means. I think that should not take place because for a considerable period they would have been in receipt of a military service pension and they would have that much benefit. Now they have lost both ways. They are going to lose something through not having received it in time but late in life. Now they are going to revert to a position as if they had it all the time, which they had not.

Mr. K. Boland

Because they did not come within the law.

General MacEoin

I am arguing that they were at all relevant times entitled to a military service pension. The only thing is that it was not granted to them in time because for certain reasons this Dáil and the Minister for the time being did not make it retrospective to 1924. I think he should have but that is beside the point. Having suffered the disadvantage of being without it and because they succeeded at a later date, the Minister now says they will go back as if they had it all the time, which they had not. However, we have to be satisfied with what we get.

On page 3 the Minister seeks to make this applicable to the Army Medical Corps officers. They are the only officers who will benefit under it. This now brings in other officers.

Mr. K. Boland

No, no. It makes the original intention clearer.

General MacEoin

Could I get a definition as to what other officers are?

Mr. K. Boland

They are officers attached to the Army Medical Corps for administrative duties.

General MacEoin

Does that cover the civilian member to the Army Pensions Board at St. Bricin's? Have any steps been taken to rectify his position at all? Is he still like Mohammed's coffin in a position of temporary suspension for the past 30 years? Is he going to remain in a temporary position until he dies? Is that a reasonable line to take? He is suspended between two Departments, the Department of Finance and the Department of Defence. The Minister for Defence says he belongs to one Department and the Minister for Finance says he belongs to the other. The truth of the matter is that he is attached to the Minister for Defence and is responsible to the Minister for Defence. I thought that type of person was covered in this section.

Mr. K. Boland

This has to do with the Army Medical Corps. He is not in that.

General MacEoin

He is part of the Army machine more or less. Even though he is a civilian, he is attached to it. Would the Minister look at the matter again and see whether he can rectify the position? I consider it completely unjust. I hold no brief for for him but I know that he has not received fair play from any Minister so far, including myself.

I accept the Order in so far as it goes. My only regret is that the Minister has not been able to go further but there is always another day and amendments are always possible. We have to be satisfied with it as we find it.

Mr. K. Boland

With regard to the benefits that are actually being conferred, I think it is made quite clear that the increases were granted in the last two Budgets in respect of the years 1959 and 1960. This scheme has to be confirmed by the two Houses of the Oireachtas to give that statutory effect.

Deputy MacEoin mentioned it was time there was a general consolidation of these schemes. I agree that is desirable but I think there is something more than consolidation required. The schemes are so complicated now that they would really need to be recast and rewritten. That would be a very big task. I do not rule out the possibility of its being done but I cannot give any guarantee that it will be done in the near future. When a scheme such as this is being introduced, we issue an explanatory memorandum to give as clear a picture as possible of what is being done.

With regard to Article 19, these three officers are retired officers who, since they retired, have been granted military service pensions. Deputy MacEoin is not quite right in saying that they lost a considerable amount due to the fact that they only received a late award because they could not draw the military service pension until after they left the Army. All the time they were serving in the Army, even if they had a military service certificate, the actual pension could not have been paid until after they left the Army. In working out whether they had gained or lost by having two pensions in respect of this period for a short time, you would have to know the date on which each of them left the Army and the date on which the award of the Military Service pension was made. The difference between what they would have got by way of a military service pension from the date they left the Army up to the time they were granted the pension would have to be balanced against the length of time for which they were paid on the double for the same period. If the officers were at any loss compared with their colleagues I would say it would be very small. None of them was paid pensions while actually serving.

General MacEoin

When that was being made out it was to the benefit of the Government and not the recipient.

Mr. K. Boland

If they were to continue being paid twice in respect of the same period for the future, then definitely there would be a loss to the State and a benefit to them and a benefit as compared with their colleagues. We should not forget their colleagues who got their military service pensions granted to them earlier on.

The civilian member of the Army Pensions Board is in the same position as any other temporary civil servant. He is not in any way connected with the Army Medical Corps. The provision in this scheme to which Deputy MacEoin related his case has nothing to do with the Army Pensions Board at all. There happens to be one Army officer on the Army Pensions Board in addition to the civilian medical member and the Chairman of the Board. They were always in a temporary capacity. I do not see that there is any particular case for establishing them.

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht - Thursday, 14 Jul 1960

Defence Forces (Pensions) (Amendment) Scheme, 1960—Motion of Confirmation.

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 14 Jul 1960