asked the Minister for Justice if he has sought and obtained tenders for an Austin Princess Saloon State car recently; if he will state the purpose for which this car was originally purchased; how long it has been idle in the Depot; if a tender has been accepted for its disposal; at what sum the car has been sold; and if he will make a general statement on this car, giving the cost of purchase, maintenance and disposal.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Sale of State Car.
48.
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative.
The car was purchased in November, 1958 in replacement of a Packard limousine which had been purchased in August, 1950, for the then Taoiseach. The cost of maintenance since its purchase is estimated at £400.
The car was sold this month at the highest price offered which was in the region of two-thirds of its purchase price; 38 firms were invited to tender and eight did so.
It would be contrary to established practice to disclose the price of individual cars bought or sold in competitive tender.
Would the Minister be prepared to indicate to the House the name of the person whose tender was accepted?
Who tendered? No, I would not be prepared to do that. As I mentioned in the course of my reply, 38 people were asked to tender and only eight responded.
Having regard to public gossip in connection with this matter, would the Minister now give the House an assurance that the person whose tender was accepted is not the brother of the Minister for Defence?
I can——
The Minister can give that guarantee? His brother inspected the car.
(Interruptions.)
You are a liar.
Would the Minister say what was the actual price? He said two-thirds of the purchase price. Could the Minister translate that into a figure?
No; it is not the practice.
There has been considerable noise and disorder and I——
Mr. Ryan
The Minister for Defence used the terms "perjurer" and "liar" in respect of a member of this House.
Two judges used that expression also.
The terms if used should not have been used.
Mr. Ryan
It was shouted out in the loudest voice in this Chamber today.
We would want an amplifier.
Mr. Ryan
It was used by somebody who ought to know what he was talking about.
Would the Minister make these second-hand cars available at some provincial centres? Why not have them available in Cork, Limerick and Waterford?
It was open to anyone to tender.
That is an entirely separate question.
In relation to this Austin Princess saloon car, is it not a fact that when it was taken out of the depot it was driven by a brother of the Minister for Defence and a son of the ex-Minister for Justice?
That is a separate question.
Surely the Minister will reply to that query? I am making an accusation that——
(Interruptions.)
Mr. Ryan
On a point of order, Sir, another member has used the word "perjurer." If the Chair did not hear that I shall have to take steps to ensure that remarks like that are taken note of——
(Interruptions.)
A Deputy
We will teach you the law.
It may have escaped your notice, Sir, that a Minister speaking from the Government Front Benches used the word "perjurer"——
I did not.
I am not referring to the Minister for Health.
You cannot be in trouble all the time.
That is the Minister's conscience speaking.
——and the word "liar." These words may not have been heard by you, Sir. They were certainly heard by me and I believe by every other colleague on this Front Bench.
Deputies
Hear, hear!
If we are to carry on Parliament within the rules necessary to make Parliament function, I submit that most especially an occupant of the Front Bench should not speak with such flagrant disregard for our Standing Orders.
May I say that if we are to carry on Parliament it is about time to see that the privilege given to Deputies is not abused?
Mr. Ryan
That applies to Ministers also.
The words may have been used but they should not have been used. The Chair, however, did not hear them. The Chair deals equally with Ministers and Deputies, if they use disorderly words.
If the Chair says he did not hear it it is all the more reason for my complaint, that I cannot hear the Chair sometimes. It seems that the Chair cannot hear us and that there is need for amplifiers.
Question No. 49.
On Question 48, may I take it——
I have called another Question.
——that Mr. Boland——
That is another slander.
It is not. The Minister has not denied it.
(Interruptions.)
Mr. Ryan
The Minister for Defence has again accused Deputy Flanagan of being a liar. How often can he make a mockery of this Parliament?
Did the Chair hear it?
I did not hear it.
(Interruptions).
Mr. Ryan
What did the judges say about the Minister for Local Government?
Question No. 49.
Mr. Ryan
On a point of order, the Front Bench of Fianna Fáil have been deliberately and consistently insulting and using unparliamentary language. Everybody in the House is able to hear it and, with respect, the offending Deputies should be called to order.
By insinuation the Deputy is making a charge against the Chair that it is protecting the Front Bench of the Government. That is what the Deputy is doing by insinuation.
Mr. Ryan
No, I am not.
Whenever a Minister has transgressed the rules of this House I have dealt with him in accordance with the rules. If I had heard the words, I would have dealt with the matter.
On a point of order, I want to draw your attention to the fact, sir, that twice I have heard the Minister for Defence using the words, addressed to a Deputy, "You are a liar." I do not deny that Deputies and Ministers have a right to dissent and to characterise a statement of another Deputy as being untrue. There is a parliamentary method of doing so. I have twice to-day heard the Minister for Defence flagrantly and deliberately use the phrase "You are a liar" and I submit that steps should be taken to have these ——
You also heard Deputy Flanagan's slander.
The Minister for Justice can deal with his questions. What I deprecate is that a member of the Government Front Bench should flagrantly and deliberately do this.
Deputies should not use these expressions. I have already said that.
May I ask the Minister for Justice to answer my question?