Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 24 May 1961

Vol. 189 No. 6

Committee on Finance. - Vota 30—Oifig an Aire Oideachais.

Aire Oideachais (Pádraig Ó hIrighile)

Tairgim:

Go ndeonófar suim nach mó ná £297,400 chun slánaithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31 ú lá de Mhárta, 1962, le haghaidh Tuarastail agus Costais Oifig an Aire Oideachais agus Costais a bhaineann leis an gComhairle Oideachais.

Seacht milliún déag, ceithre chéad is sé mhíle, dhá chéad is deich bpúnt atá ins na naoí Vótaí go bhfuilim-se freagrach iontu. Tá an méid sin £632,210 níos mó ná mar a solthraíodh sa bhliain airgeadais seo caite.

Ina theannta san tá £1,600,000 fé Vóta 9 (Oibreacha Poiblí agus Foirgintí) chun tithe scoile náisiúnta a thógáil, a mhéadú agus a chóiriú. Dá bhrí sin, tá ar fad £19,006,210 dhá sholáthar le haghaidh na seirbhísí oideachais i mbliana. Is ionann san is 14.4% den iomlán atá dá chur ar fáil le haghaidh na Seirbhísí Soláthair ar fad.

Nuair a fhéachaimid ar shuim atá os cionn £19,000,000, tá seans ann go rithfeadh sé linn gur mór an glam airgid é agus gan dá chlúdach aige ach sraith amháin seirbhísí. Ach ansan nuair a chuimhnímid ar cé chomh tábhachtach agus ar cé chomh bunúsach is atá na seirbhísí sin don tír, tá mé cinnte nach leasc le haoinne againn an méid atá á chaitheamh orthu. Sé an intinn atá agam féin faoi ná go mbeidh orainn leanúint fós de bheith ag cur leis an soláthar i gcomhair oideachais sul a mbeimid i riocht a rá go bhfuil córas oideachais againn atá gar do bheith lán-sásúil.

Tráchtfaidh mé anois ar na seirbhisí ar leith.

OIFIG AN AIRE OIDEACHAIS.

Costaisí riaracháin na Roinne atá sa Vóta so. An t-iomlán, £447,400, is mó de £28,700 é ná méid na bliana anuiridh. Siad na fáthanna atá leis sin ná an soláthar atá á dhéanamh don Choimisiún Um Árd-Oideachas, an soláthar a ghabhann le ballraíocht UNESCO, agus freisin soláthar do bhreis foirne toisc an méadú ana-mhór atá tagaithe ar na seirbhísí iarbhunoideachais.

BUN-OIDEACHAS.

Deich milliún, seacht gcéad is seachtó míle, sé chéad is caoga púnt an méid glan atá sa Vóta so. Is mó de £221,810 é sin ná suim na bliana 1960/61, agus £50,000 de mheastachán breise a thógaint san áireamh. Furmhór an mhéadú sin baineann sé le soláthar breise i gcomhair tuarastail múinteoirí a shíolraigh ó mhéadú ar líon na múinteoirí agus ó shocruithe i leith tuarastail a deineadh fén chóras idirréitigh. Sa scoil-bhliain a chríochnaigh ar an 30ú Meitheamh, 1960, bhí 13,866 ar fostú ins na scoileanna i gcomparáid le 13,684 sa bhliain roimhe sin. Bhí méadú freisin ar líon na ndaltaí ins na scoileanna náisiúnta: is 506,208 daltaí a bhí ar na rollaí ar an 30ú Meitheamh, 1960, i gcomparáid le 505,363 daltaí ar chothrom an lae sin sa bhliain 1959.

Fé mar a léiríonn na figiúirí atá tugtha agam anois díreach, tá isteach is amach le cúig chéad míle dalta ins na scoileanna náisiúnta. Má thógaimid gur céad bliain saol-ré foirgneamh scoile bheadh orainn cóiríocht do chúig mhíle dalta do chur ar fáil gach bliain chun an status quo do choimeád. Mar sin nuair adeirim libh gur soláthraíodh cóiríocht nua do 12,133 de dhaltaí sa bhliain darbh chríoch an 31ú Márta seo caite, tuigfidh sibh cé chomh tapaidh is atáimid ag glanadh na riaráistí a fágadh mar oidhreacht againn. Deineadh san in ainneoin gur drochbhliain ó thaobh cúrsaí tógála an bhliain sin toisc a dhonacht is a bhí an aimsir i gcaitheamh na bliana.

Maidir leis an mbliain atá romhainn ar an 31ú Márta, 1961, bhí céad dachad is a haon de mhór-scéimeanna tógála ar siúl. Soláthrófar leis na scéimeanna san cóiríocht do 17,666 daltaí.

Ó thárla mé caint ar chúrsaí tógála agus an dul chun cinn atá á dhéanamh ba mhaith liom tagairt go speisialta don tábhacht a bhaineann leis na scoileanna do choimeád i dtreo mar is ceart. Ní haon mhaith bheith ag cur foirgintí nua ar fáil muna gcoimeádtar i gceart ina dhiaidh sin iad. Bhítheas ag súil leis i gcónaí, agus is réasúnta an ní é, measaim, bheith ag súil leis, gur ar an mbainisteoir a bheadh an fhreagraíocht i leith chóiriú na scoile. Tá a lán bainisteoirí ann a dhéanann an-chúram do bheith ag breathnú i ndiaidh a gcuid scoileanna, ach tá an iomad ann fós nach ndéanann. Sé an bheart atá le déanamh, dá réir sin, teacht ar sheift chun uchtach a thabhairt do na dea-bhainisteoirí úd agus chun an bainisteoir faillíoch a ghríosú le tabhairt faoina chuid dualgas sa ghnó.

Ba léir tar éis an scéal a scrúdú, gurbí an phéinteáil an chuid is riachtanaí, agus fós an chuid is costasaí den obair sin. Chun teacht ar leigheas an scéil, tá beartaithe agam scéim a thabhairt isteach féna dtuitfidh cuid de chostas na péinteála ar an Stát, an chéad uair riamh ó bunaíodh córas an oideachais náisiúnta, ar tháinig an Stát i gcabhair ar an slí sin. Níl mion-seoraí an scéime socair fós, ach thig liom a rá ag an bpointe seo gurbe an cion a thógfaidh an Stát air féin dhá dtrian den chostas. Ag an am céanna, ba mhaith liom a fhógairt do gach aon lena mbaineann nach n-íocfar an deontas ach amháin sa chás ina mbeidh foirgneamh agus clós na scoile á gcoimeád go sásúil.

Tógáil agus cóiriú scoileanna is mó a bhí i gceist agam go dtí seo, ach tá roinnt nithe eile go mba mhaith liom tagairt speisialta a dhéanamh dóibh anois. Ceann de na nithe sin, ceann a bhaineann go dlúth le tógáil agus cóiriú, isea ceist na foirne.

Anuraidh is athrú anuraidh deineadh scéal na fóirne ins na scoileanna náisiúnta d'fheabhsú trí huaire ar leith trén choibhneas idir scoláirí agus múinteoirí do laghdú. Is maith liom é do bheith le hinsint agam go bhfuil beartaithe a thuilleadh feabhais do chur ar an scéal i mbliana. Chuala sibh go léir trácht ar na ranganna móra. Is ins na scoileanna a íoctar ar bhun caipitíochta is mó a thárla na ranganna san, scoileanna nach raibh an coibhneas idir múinteoirí is daltaí comh fábharach iontu is atá ins na gnáth-scoileanna aicmíochta. Tá socair go gceadófar le héifeacht ón lú lúil, 1961, an fhoireann chéanna ins na scoileanna san is atá á ceadú ins na gnáth-scoileanna aicmíochta. Na baill bhreise foirne a fhostófar dá réir sí an Roinn a íocfaidh a dtuarastal ar fad. Ba chóir go dtiocfadh as sin go laghdófar go maith ar na ranganna móra ins na scoileanna sin.

Tá beartas eile i leith na scoileanna a íoctar ar bhun caipitíochta go mba mhaith liom tagairt dó. Fé mar a fógraíodh tamall ó shoin tá an Roinn i gcomhairle le lucht ceannais na scoileanna sin ó thaobh postanna speisialta do chruthú do na tuath-oidí atá fostaithe iontu. Fé réir an bheartais sin cruthófar post speisialta amháin in aghaidh gach ceathrair tuath-oidí-oidí atá fostaithe in aon scoil dá leithéid agus íocfar le sealbhóir an phoist liúntas is ionann agus liúntas leas-phríomhoide ins na gnáth-scoileanna, sé sin, £60 sa bhliain d'fhear singil agus do mhnaoí agus £75 sa bhliain d'fhear pósta. An Roinn a sheasódh costas na bpostanna speisialta san freisin.

Beart mhaith eile a tháinig i gcrích le déanaí is ea gur ardaíodh na liúntais do phríomh-oidí agus do leasphríomhoidí ón lú Aibreán fé réir aontú a rinneadh fán Chóras Idirréitigh. Is do na príomhoidí ins na scoileanna beaga fén dtuaith a tugadh an t-ardú ba mhó. Ceann de na fáthanna a bhí leis sin ná gur fíorthábhachtach gan na príomh-oidi bheith ag aistriú ó na scoileanna beaga sin go minic agus gur fíorthábhachtach, leis, oidí óga a mhealladh chun na scoileanna sin.

Ó thárla mé ag caint ar an gcóras idir-reitigh tá aontu eile a rinneadh fén chóras san agus b'fhéidir nár mhiste tagairt a dhéanamh dó. Baineann an t-aontú san le múinteoirí náisiúnta ga raibh seirbhís acu mar tuath-oidí i scoileanna caipitíochta roimh 1934. Go dtí seo níor áiríodh ach dhá dtrian den tseirbhís úd chun críche pinsin, rud a bhí ina abhar mór gearáin ag na múinteoirí a bhí i gceist. Fé réir an aontú atá déanta anois ní bheidh an t-abhar gearáin sin ann a thuilleadh.

Tá gné eile fós den bhun-oideachas go bhfuil an-chur síos déanta air le roint bhlian anuas. Sé gné atá i gceist agam ná oideachas do sholáthar do pháistí go bhfuil máchail coirp nó máchail intinne orthu. Tá dul ar aghaidh ana-mhaith déanta le roint bhlian anuas le bunú scoileanna speisialta do pháistí dá leithéid. I láthair na huaire tá ós cionn 30 scoileanna den chineál san ann. Fadhbh amháin atá ag baint leo ná foireann atá cáilithe go h-oiriúnach a fháil dóibh. Chun an fhadhbh sin a réiteach tá socair tús a chur i mbliana le cúrsa speisialta sé mhí do mhúinteoirí gur mhaith leo bheith ag obair ins na scoileanna san. Rinne mé tagairt don scéal san sa Tigh seo nuair a bhí meastachán breise á thabhairt isteach agam tamall ó shoin agus b'fhéidir gur tuigeadh as an méid a dubhras an tráth san nach mbeadh ag freastal ar an gcúrsa speisialta sin ach fir. Is amhlaidh a ghlacfar le fir agus mná ar an gcúrsa.

Beidh cuimhne ag na Teachtaí gur chuireas in iúl sa Tigh seo anuraidh go raibh socair deireadh a chur leis na Coláistí Ullmhúcháin mar chuid de chóras earcaíochta na múinteoirí náisiúnta. Bhí daoine ann, b'fhéidir, san am a bhí ag ceapadh gur céim siar é sin ó thaobh múinteoirí d'fháil a mbeadh eolas an mhaith acu ar an nGaeilge. Éinne a bhí ag ceapadh a leithéid, is baol go ndearna sé dearmad go raibh dhá dtrian de na múinteoirí i gcónaí nár thainig riamh tré Choláiste Ullmhúcháin, agus mar sin de in aon mhachtnamh a dhéanfaí i dtaobh an scéil go gcaithfí staid na múinteoirí ar fad do thógaint san áireamh. Rinneadh é sin, agus táim sásta go bhfaghann na mic-léinn cúrsa an-mhaith sa Ghaeilge ins na Coláistí Oiliúna.

Ag an am chéana, áfach, measaim go bhfónódh sé go mór do na múinteoirí óga nach cainteoirí ó dhúchas iad tréimhsí a chaitheamh sa Ghaeltacht. D'fhonn é sin do thabhairt chun críche tá socair agam athrú do dhéanamh ins na rialacha a bhaineann le cáilíochta Gaeilge le haghaidh múinteoirí náisiúnta. Go dtí seo bhí ar mhúinteoirí caighdeán an Teastais Dhá-Theangaigh do shroisint ag deireadh an chúrsa oiliúna chun láncháilíocht do bhaint amach. I gcássanna áirithe ina dteipeadh orthú é sin a dhéanamh tugtaí seansanna eile dóibh an caighdeán do shroisint le linn a tréimhse profa.

Tá beartaithe agam anois deireadh a chur leis an dTeastas Dhá-Theangach agus ina áit sin an gnáth-scrúdú cinn cúrsa sa Ghaeilge a bheith ann i dteannta le triail inniúlachta i labhairt na Gaeilge go gcaithfeadh an múinteoir óg pas d'fháil ann laistigh de chúig bhliain tar éis dó an Coláiste Oiliúna d'fhágaint. Tá ar intinn go mbeadh caighdeán an-ard sa triail sin, caighdeán nach sroisfí, de ghnáth, ach ag an gcainteoir ó dhúchas nó ag an té go raibh tréimhsí caite sa Ghaeltacht aige. Chun cabhrú leis na múinteoirí a bheadh i gceist tréimhsí do chaitheamh sa Ghaeltacht tá socair go n-íocfar £15 de liúntas leo i leith tréimhse míosa a bheadh caite acu sa Ghaeltacht i ngach ceann de thrí bhliain laistigh den am a mbeidís á n-ullmhú féin don triail inniúlachta. Táim sásta go ndéanfaidh an scéim nua so a lán chun caighdeán labhairt na Gaeilge i measc na múinteoirí d'ardú agus go dtiocfaidh as sin go mbeadh feabhas mór ar theagasc labhairt na Gaeilge ins na scoileanna.

MEÁN-OIDEACHAS.

Dhá mhilliún, ocht gcéad seasca is trí mhíle, ceithre chéad is caoga púnt an t-iomlán atá dhá sholáthar le haghaidh Meán-Oideachais. Is £147,960 de mhéadú é sin ar sholáthar na bliana airgeadais 1960-61. Síolraíonn an méadú san ón bhfás atá ar líon na scoileanna, líon na múinteoirí agus líon na scoláirí. Le go léireofaí cé chomh tapaidh is atá an mheán-scolaíocht ag leathnú bhéarfaidh mé roint figiúirí do bhaill an Tí. San scoil-bhliain 1929/30 bhí 294 de mheánscoileanna ann agus 27,645 dalta iontu. Fiche bliain ina dhiaidh sin .i. sa scoil-bhliain 1949/50 bhí líon na scoileanna méadaithe go dtí 416 agus líon na ndaltaí méadaithe go 47,065. Sa scoil-bhliain reatha siad na comh-fhigiúirí ná 526 agus 76,843, fé seach.

Cloisimid oiread san trácht na laetheanta so i dtaobh tuarastal múinteoirí go mb'fhéidir nár mhiste roint fíoraí do thabhairt. Tá dhá chuid i dtuarastal meán-mhúinteora .i. an bun-thuarastal—minimum £200 sa bhliain—a íocann an scoil, agus an breis-thuarastal a íocann an Roinn. Nuair a cuireadh tús leis na scálaí breis-thuarastail a bhliain 1924-25 sé an scála a bhí ann d'fhear ó £12 go dtí £210 sa bhliain, agus ó £10 go dtí £120 sa bhliain do mhnaoi. Ní bhíodh aon bhreis-thuarastal iníoctha go dtí go mbíodh trí bhliain de thaithí curtha isteach ag an múinteoir.

Sa bhliain 1946 deineadh athrú sa scéal i dtreo go raibh breis-thuarastal iníoctha tar éis bliana de thaithí a chur isteach. Téann na scálaí breis-thuarastail atá i bhfeidhm fé láthair ó £260 go dtí £645 i gcás fir singil nó mná, agus ó £335 go dtí £870 i gcás fir phósta. Fé mar a dubhras cheana, minimum de £200 an tuarastal scoile, agus mar sin de, sé an scála minimum iomlán atá ag fear singil nó bean anois ná £460 go dtí £845 agus d'fhear pósta £535 go dtí £1,070.

Le cois an ghnáth-bhreis-thuarastail íocann an Roinn breiseanna speisialta ar son céim le h-onóracha—£48 sa bhliain—agus ar son teagaisc tré Ghaeilge—suas go dtí £37 16 sa bhliain—chomh maith le liúntas cíosa —ó £10 10 go dtí £42—agus liúntaisí leanaí—£28 an leanbh—le fir phósta agus baintreabhacha. Léiríonn na figiúirí sin cé chomh mór is feabhsaíodh na tuarastail ó 1924. Tá sé ina abhar casaoide, áfach, ag na múinteoirí óga nach bhfaigheann siad díolaíocht ón Stát sa chéad bhliain dá seirbhís. Tar éis dom gach gné den cheist san do mheas, táim sásta, má táimíd chun daoine óga a bhfuil abhar maith iontu a mhealladh chugainn, go bhfuil an t-am tagaithe chun an scéal sin a leigheas. Dá réir sin tá beartaithe agam scéim do cheapadh fén a mbeidh meánmhúinteoirí i riocht díolaíocht ón Stát ón lú Lúnasa seo chugainn i leith na céad bhliana dá seirbhís. Sé an tsuim airgid a bheadh i gceist ón Stát ná £200, ar na coinníollacha céanna ó thaobh cuóta is atá ann do na múinteoirí cláraithe aithinte. An díolaíocht sin ón Stát, i dteannta an tuarastail ón scoil, táthar ag súil go dtabhairfidh sé thar anás na céad-bhliana úd iad.

Níl fúm aon mhion-tagairt a dhéanamh do chlár na meán-scol. An fáth atá agam leis sin ná nach bhfuil breithniú déanta fós ar thuairisc na Comhairle Oideachais a cuireadh fá mo bhráid tamall o shoin. Tá an tuairisc sin ag na clódóirí fé láthair agus measaim nach fada eile go dtí go mbeidh sé foilsithe. Lorgófar tuairimí ina leith ansin ó na Cumainn Scoileanna agus ó dhreamanna eile go mbaineann an scéal leo.

Tá gné amháin d'obair na Meánscoileanna, áfach, go mba mhaith liom tagairt a dhéanamh di. Sí an ghné sin ná teagasc na hEolaíochta. Tá an teagasc san ar siúl anois i 440 scoil agus i 3,356 rang. Na figiúirí don bhliain roimhe sin ná 420 agus 3,076, fé seach. Léiríonn na figiúirí sin gur fóirleithne teagasc na hEolaíochta ná mar a chuirtear in iúl don phobal i gcoitinne.

Mar sin féin, cé gur fíor go dtugann an Roinn timpeall £40,000 de dheontas gach bliain do na scoileanna chun fearaistí eolaíochta a cheannach, ní féidir gan cuimhneamh air go ngabhann cuid mhór costais le saotharlainn eolaíochta do ghléasadh mar is cóir agus go mb'fhéidir go bhfuil ag dul dian ar chuid de na scoileanna ach go háirithe teacht ar an airgead chuige sin. Dá réir sin shocraigh mé i Mí Meán Fómhair seo caite imlitir agus ceistneoir a chur go dtí Bainisteoirí na Meán-Scoileanna ag lorg mion-eolais uathu i dtaobh theagasc na hEolaíochta. Ba mhór an chabhair na freagraí a fuarthas chun an scéal ar fad d'aithbhreithniú. De thoradh an aithbhreithnithe sin, tá beartaithe agam scéim a bheith ann fé n-a bhféadfaí, i gcúrsaí áirithe, cabhair mhaith airgid a thabhairt do scoil chun troscán saotharlainne chomh maith le gléasanna eolaíochta do cheannach. Tá mionseorthaí na scéime á ndéanamh amach fá láthair ag an Roinn, agus tá súil nach fada go mbeifear in ann gach uile eolas ina thaobh a chur chun na scoileanna.

CÉARD-OIDEACHAS

Milliún, sé chéad, seasca is trí mhíle, ocht gcéad agus seasca púnt an méid atá á iarraidh san bhliain airgeadais seo le haghaidh seirbhísí céard-oideachais. Is £156,840 de mhéadú é sin ar an méid a soláthraíodh anuraidh, agus an Meastachán Breise a ritheadh i ndeireadh na bliana airgeadais seo caite a chur i dteannta an bhun-mheastacháin.

Léiríonn táibhle na bhfó-mhírcheann i Leabhar na Meastachán an chaoi a bhfuil an t-airgead seo le caitheamh; i bhfoirm deontas do na coistí gairmoideachais, ár ndóigh, a caithfear an mhórchuid ar fad do. Os cionn £184,000 de mhéadú atá ar na deontais sin do réir mar atá léirithe san Mheastachán, ach nuair a áirítear an tsuim a bhí sa Mheastachán Breise úd a luaigh mé, isé breis ghlan atá á hiarraidh i leith na ndeontas seo, thar mar a soláthraíodh anuraidh, £151,416.

Is léir do gach éinne gur seirbhís é an céard-oideachas atá ag leathnú i gcónaí agus sílim go bhfuil gach éinne ar aon tuairim gur mór is inmhianta é sin. Sa bhliain 1959/60 bhí 279 ag soláthar teagaisc—isé sin, seacht scoileanna níos mó ná mar bhí ann bliain roimhe sin—agus bhí cúrsaí agus ranganna ar siúl, freisin, i bheagnach 500 ionad eile. Tháinig breis is 1,700 de mhéadú ar an líon daltaí a bhí ag freastal ar chúrsaí lán-aimsire lae in oideachas leanúna agus i gcéard-oideachas: 26,322 an líon a bhí ann don tseiseon atá caite. Mar an gcéanna, do méadaíodh ar líon na múinteoirí, idir mhúinteoirí lán-aimsire agus múinteoirí páirt-aimsire. Is mó de 32 an líon múinteoirí lán-aimsire a bhí ann sa tseiseon atá caite ná mar bhí sa tseiseon roimhe sin, agus is mó 218 an líon de mhúinteoirí páirt-aimsire. Is iad iomlán a bhí ann sa tseiseon dár chríoch Lúnasa, 1960, don dá aicme sin múinteoirí: 1,606 de mhúinteoirí lán-aimsireacha, agus 1,446 de mhúinteoirí páirt-aimsire.

Ach ní le statistic amháin a léirítear iomlán na forbairte sa tseirbhís ghairmoideachais agus chéardoideachais. Tá dlúthbhaint ag obair na ngairmscol le beagnach gach uile fhorbairt agus gné fhorais sa tsaol náisiúnta. Thrácht mé anseo anuraidh ar na Feirm-Scoileanna Geimhridh a bunaíodh tré chomhoibriú mo Roinne féin, na Roinne Talmhaíochta, na gcoistí talmhaíochta agus na gcoistí gairmoideachais. Leanadh dena scoileanna sin i rith an gheimhridh seo caite, agus is ábhar mór sástachta a fheabhas is d'éirigh leo. Níl aon amhras ann, i mo thuairim, ach gur tábhachtach ar fad iad na cúrsaí seo don tionscal talmhaíochta. An spéis a cuireadh iontu ó thús agus an t-éileamh a bhí agus atá orthu, léiriu is ea é ar cheann de na rudaí is luachmhaire dá bhfuil againn sa tír seo: isé sin, an fonn mór—an cíocras, d'fhéadfaí a rá —atá ar mhuintir na hÉireann chun glacadh le haon ghléas oiliúna nó oideachais a sholáthraítear dóibh, agus leas a bhaint as.

Tá oiread sin gnéithe den ghairmoideachas ann nach féidir dhom ar ócáid mar seo cur síos a dhéanamh orthu uilig—ná fiú iad a ríomh, ach tá gné amháin ach go háirithe de ar mhaith é a lua go speisialta i mbliana. Is é gné é ná an scéim chun muintir na tuaithe a oiliúint chun a gcuid tithe cónaithe a fheabhsú agus a chóiriú. Deich mbliana ó shoin, do cuireadh tús leis an scéim seo i gCondae Mhuigheo. Is amhlaidh a bhí ar intinn ag Coiste Gairmoideachais Chontae Mhuigheo cúrsa samhraidh Gaeilge a chur ar bun i nGaeltacht Acla, ach nuair a rinneadh breithniú ar na háiseanna lóistín a bheadh ann do dhaoine a thiocfadh ar an gcúrsa, fuarthas nár leor ar chor ar bith iad. Ba léir, mar sin, nár mhiste a gcéadóir na daoine a spreagadh agus cabhrú leo chun cúrsaí títhíoctha sa cheanntar a fheabhsú. Chuathas i gcionn oibre. Bunaíodh rang speisialta sa ghairm-scoil, agus sa rang sin do thug múinteoir adhmadóireachta de chuid an Choiste teagasc agus treoir agus comhairle do mhuintir na háite ar an gcaoi lena gcuid tithe cónaithe d'fheabhsú. Leagadh amach pleananna chun tithe a mhéadú agus chun atógáil a dhéanamh fé mar ba ghá; tugadh comhairle i dtaobh córais uisce agus folláineachta a chur sna tithe; tugadh teagasc agus bunoiliúint sna céardanna foirgníochta—siúinéireacht agus mar sin de. Chuaigh lucht na dtithe ag obair, agus chuaigh an múinteoir thart ag féachaint ar an dul chun cinn a bhí á dhéanamh agus ag comhairliú. D'éirigh go rí-mhaith leis an scéim—chomh mhaith sin go raibh cúrsaí den chineál céanna in Acaill gach bliain ó 1952 i leith. Sa tréimhse sin, tógadh ceithre cinn déag de thithe nua sa cheantar, deisíodh agus leathnaíodh ag tarraingt ar chéad teach, agus cuireadh seomraí folcadáin agus leithris uisce isteach i seachtó teach. Aithneofar gur mór an éacht é sin in aon cheanntar tuaithe amháin.

As an ngluaiseacht seo a tionscnaíodh in Acaill thainig fás. Chonnacthas go bhféadfaí leas mór ar an dul céanna a dhéanamh ar fud Éireann uile tré dhaoine a oiliúint agus a threorú le deiseanna cónaithe níos fearr a chur ar fáil dóibh féin. Cinneadh ar aicme speisialta múinteoirí a oiliúint don obair seo. Sa bhliain 1954, hoileadh an chéad dream de mhúinteoirí foirgníochta le dul ag obair faoi choistí gairmoideachais. Ghlac na coistí ina bhfostaíocht iad láithreach. Ritheadh an dara cúrsa trí bhliain ina dhiaidh sin chun tuilleadh múinteoirí a sholáthar le freastal ar éileamh na gcoistí. Ocht nduine agus triocha de na múinteoirí seo atá ag obair faoi choistí anois, agus ní leor an méid sin. Tá cúrsa oiliúna eile ar siúl faoi láthair agus beidh ceithre dhuine dhéag eile de na múinteoirí seo ann do thús an tseiseoin seo chugainn.

Is beag condae sa tír nach bhfuil múinteoir foirgníochta amháin, ar a laghad, ag obair ann anois: i gcontaethe áirithe—luaim, mar shomplaí Contae na Gaillimhe agus Contae Dhún na nGall—tá triúr, agus éileamh ar tuilleadh. I dteannta an taoibh phraicticiúil den obair thógála a theagasc agus a léiriú, tugann na múinteoirí seo eolas agus treoir maidir leis na deontais atá le fáil ó Ranna Stáit agus ó údaráis áitiúla i leith tógáil agus feabhsú tithe cónaithe. Teachta ar bith nach bhfuil eolas aige ar a bhfuil de mhaitheas á dhéanamh faoin scéim seo ar fud na tíre, b'fhiú dhó dul ag breathnú cuid den obair dó féin. Ba ghealadh croí agus ardú meanman dó é.

Dá mhéid an toradh atá ar an scéim seo, ó thaoibh chompóirt agus glaine agus sláinte, ní lú ná sin a thoradh ó thaobh tréithe caractair agus meoin an duine féin. An duine a fhoghlamaíonn dó féin an tslí chun meabhair a chinn agus achmire a lámh a chur ag obair lena leas féin agus le leas a theaghlaigh agus a mhuintire, is crediúint é dá mhuintir agus dá thír. Agus aon teagasc nó oiliúint a chothaíonn spiorad an nea-spleachais agus a spreagann an duine le meas a bheith aige air féin agus ar a shaothar féin, is deaoideachas é.

Tá mórán gnéithe eile den obair atá ionmholta go mór a bhfuil freastal á dhéanamh orthu faoi na scéimeanna gairmoideachais ar fud na tíre. Gan na gairmscoileanna ní fada a raghadh an tionsclaíocht agus na monarchana atá á mbunú thall is i bhfus, thíos agus thuas, ar fud na tíre, sé sin dá mba ann dóibh ar chor ar bith gan na gairmscoileanna. Is ag méadú i gcónaí a bheidh cúram na gcoistí. Ag féachaint siar dúinn ar a fheabhas is chruthaigh na coistí, an lucht riaracháin agus na múinteoirí i gcomhlíonadh a ndualgais do mhuintir na hÉireann go dtí seo, ní gá dhúinn bheith faoi imní ina leith sin faoin am atá le teacht. Tá an dubhshraith leagtha go daingean; ba mhór é an t-ualach a bheadh ró-throm le hiompar ag an dubhshraith chéanna sin.

EOLAIOCHT AGUS EALAÍ.

Dá chéad dachad is a hocht míle, sé chéad is ochtó púnt an t-iomlán atá á lorg fén Vóta so. Ceithre mhíle trí chéad is caoga púnt de mhéadú é sin ar an iomlán a soláthraíodh don bhliain seo caite trén bhun-mheastachán agus meastachán breise. Cuid de na nithe go bhfuil breis airgid ag teastáil dóibh, measaim nár mhiste dom tagairt ar leith a dhéanamh dóibh.

Tá £600 breise ag teastáil le haghaidh scoláireachtaí Iolscoile de bhrí go bhfuil socair líon na scoláireacht Iolscoile do lucht na Gaeltachta do mhéadú ó chúig cinn go dtí cúig cinn déag in aghaidh na bliana. Tá forbairt an-mhór ar ghnéithe áirithe d'imeachtaí Oireachtais na Gaeilge, go háirithe, ó thaobh cúrsaí Ceoil agus Drámaíochta dhe. Is chun cabhrú leis an bhforbairt sin atá £500 sa mbreis á sholáthar. An leathnú an-mhór ar obair na gColáistí Samhraidh agus ar líon na scoláirí iontu a ndearna mé tagairt dó anuraidh tá san ann i gcónaí sa tslí go bhfuiltear sásta go gcaithfear £1,000 sa bhreis a chur ar fáil dóibh.

Sé fáth go bhfuil gá le £1,000 eile a thabhairt do Cheol-Acadamh Ríoga na hÉireann ná gurbh éigin do Ghobharnóirí an Acadaimh tabhairt fé scéim deisiúcháin ana-phráinneach a gcás an fhoirghnimh atá acu.

Tá £8,300 de laghdú ar an soláthar d'foilsitheoireacht Gaeilge. Ní hamhlaidh nach bhfuil scríbhinní oiriúnacha á gcur ar fáil len a bhfoilsiú. Tá níos mó scríbhinní curtha agus á gcur in eagar le haghaidh clódóireachta i láthair na huaire ná mar a bhí le roinnt mhaith bhlian anuas. Bhí, áfach, oiread san de bhrú ar na clódóirí nár bh'fhéidir i gcaitheamh na bliana so caite an dul chun cinn a dhéanamh leis an gclódóireacht a rabhthas ag súil leis. Mar sin de, ní bheidh oiread cuntas le glanadh sa bhliain airgeadais reatha is a bheadh sa ghnáth-shlí. Sin é fáth an laghdú san soláthar.

SCOILEANNA CEARTÚCHÁIN AGUS SCOILEANNA SAOTHAIR.

Dhá chéad dachad is ceithre mhíle, céad is ochtó púnt atá á lorg fén Vóta so. Is lú de £9,990 é sin ná meastachán na bliana so caite. Sé is cúis leis an ísliú ná go bhfuiltear ag súil leis go mbeidh laghdú i líon na leanaí a bheidh fé choimeád ins na scoileanna saothair i rith na bliana 1961/62.

An titim i líon na leanaí ins na Scoileanna Saothair go ndearnadh tagairt di le roinnt bhlian anuas, tá sin ann i gcónaí. In 48 de Scoileanna Saothair bhí 1,965 de chailíní agus 1,765 de bhuachaillí ag deireadh na bliana 1960 i gcomparáid le 2,043 agus 1,826, faoi seach, ag deireadh na bliana 1959. Ins na Scoileanna Ceartúcháin tá méadú i líon na mbuachaillí atá fé choimeád. Bhí 183 de bhuachaillí fé choimeád ar an 31ú Nollaig, 1960, i gcomparáid le 173 ar an 31ú Nollaig, 1959. Bé líon a bhí ins an dá Scoil do na cailíní ar an dátaí céanna ná 36 agus 34 fé seach.

Tá scoileanna náisiúnta dá gcuid fhéin ag 20 de na Scoileanna Saothair agus i gcás na codach eile, 28, de na Scoileanna Saothair freastalann na páistí ar scoileanna náisiúnta sa chomharsanacht.

Cuid de na páistí ins na scoileanna saothair faghann siad iarbhunoideachas tré scoláireachtaí a bhuachaint nó de thoradh socruithe speisialta a dhéanann lucht stiúrtha na scoileanna dóibh.

Thagair mé anuraidh do shuíomh a bheith tofa don fhoirgneamh nua atá beartaithe a sholáthar in ionad na háite coinneála i dTeach Mhaolbhríde, Glasnaíon. Thárla sa deireadh nár bhfhéidir an suíomh sin a fháil agus bhí deacrachtaí ag baint le suíomh oiriúnach eile a aimsiú. Ábhar áthais dom anois a rá go bhfuil suíomh nua níos fearr ná an chéad cheann ar fáil agus go bhfuil gnóthaíocht ar siúl faoi láthair chun seilbh a fháil air. Tá mé ag súil anois nach ró-fhada go dtosnófar ar thógáil an fhoirgnimh agus tá de rún agam gach is féidir a dhéanamh chun dlús a chur leis an obair.

INSTITIÚID ARDLÉINN BHAILE ÁTHA CLIATH.

Ochtó trí mhíle, ocht céad is ochtó púnt an meastachán don Institiúid Ardléinn, sé sin, £1,570 níos lú ná an soláthar don bhliain seo caite. Thárla an laghdú san ann de bhrí nár ghá soláthar chomh hárd is a rinneadh anuraidh do dhéanamh le haghaidh oibreacha caipitiúla.

IOLSCOILEANNA AGUS COLÁISTÍ.

Sé iomlán an tsoláthair le haghaidh gnóthaí reatha ins na hIolscoileanna agus Coláistí ná £985,130. Caoga is a naoi míle, cúig chéad púnt de mhéadú é sin ar sholáthar na bliana seo caite. Ocht is cúig mhíle púnt an meastachán iomlán de chaiteachas caipitiúil, sé sin, £24,000 de mhéadú ar sholáthar na bliana seo caite. An méadú atá ann le haghaidh gnóthaí reatha, tagann sé sin as an meastachán de riachtanais iolscoile a rinneadh athrú anuraidh. An méadú sa chúntas caipitiúil as an soláthar i gcóir foirgneamh eolaíochta i gColáiste Iolscoile na Gaillimhe a thagann sé sin.

AN tÁILÉAR NÁISIÚNTA.

Trí mhíle déag, naoi gcéad agus ochtó púnt atá á sholáthar sa Bhóta seo, sé sin, £610 de mhéadú ar sholáthar na bliana seo caite. An chuid is mó den mhéadú sin, séard tá an soláthar i leith na ngnáth-incrimíntí tuarastail.

Acting Chairman (Mr. Sheldon)

Does Deputy Mulcahy wish to give notice of his intention to move to refer back the Estimate?

Risteárd Ua Maolchatha

Tá mé chun é sin a dhéanamh. Tairgim go gcuirfear an Meastachán siar chun a athbhreithnithe, Anuraidh dúirt mé go rabhas ag cur na ceisteanna céanna ar an Aire agus a chuir mé an bhliain roimhe sin ar an ócáid chéanna. Dá gceapfainn go raibh aon mhaitheas inti do bhéinn ag cuir cuid de na ceisteanna céanna sin arís i mbliana.

Anuraidh bhí ar mo chumas moladh do thabhairt don Aire—bíodh is go raibh morán clamhsán laistigh— go raibh an obair ag dul ar aghaidh go maith, go raibh chomh-oibriú ceart idir é féin agus bainisteóiri agus daoine eile go raibh cumhacht agus taithí acu in obair oideachais. Molaim an tAire i mbliana as ucht feabhsú ins na liúntaisí do mhúinteoirí áirithe. Tá súil agam go mbeidh toradh maith ar an Teastas Dhátheangach, agus mar sin de. Bíodh sin mar atá, tá an tAire ag cuir roinnt "paint" ar na scoileanna. Is docha go bhfuil áiteanna eile ins an scéal agus gur gá mórán "paint" do chur orthu freisin.

Tá mórán rudaí ag déanamh buartha dúinn inniu maidir le rudaí nár cuireadh i gceart tráth fadó. Deireann morán daoine go bhfuil lochta le fáil i ngnéithe eacnamaíochta, agus eile, toisc nár cuireadh obair áirithe ar siúl 20 nó 30 nó 40 bliain ó shoin agus is fíor é sin. Pé rud atá ar siúl go mhaith anois, de thoradh na tuisceana atá againn ar chomh tábhachtach agus chomh riachtanach is atá sé, is dócha go bhfuil locht mór ar ár cúrsaí oideacais anois agus gur cóir dúinn aire a thabhairt don ghné sin den Roinn.

Is fíor, mar a deireann an tAire, go bhfuil mórán ceisteanna gur féidir linn tagairt a dhéanamh dóibh go speisialta anseo. Tugaim fé ndeara nach gcuirtear mórán ceisteanna ar an Aire Oideachais i rith na bliana. Luíonn sé go daingean orm go bhfuil mórán ceisteanna gur cóir aire a thabhairt dóibh ó mhí go mí gur cóir ceisteanna do chur futha ins an Dáil agus nach féidir feabhas a chur ar an scéal go dtí go ndéantar é sin.

Do chuir mé ceist ar an Aire an lá fé dheireadh faoi cad a bhí beartaithe againn chun an chlár léinn do pháistí ó 12 bliana d'aois agus ós a chionn sin ins na scoileanna náisiúnta a ath-bhreithniú.

D'fhiafraíos den Aire Oideachais an inseoidh sé an bhfuil beartaithe aige an clár teagaisc i gcóir páistí ó dhá bhliain déag suas sna scoileanna náisiúnta a bhreithniú agus, má tá, cé a dhéanfaidh an bhreithniú sin: cathain a thosófar air: agus cathain is dóigh leis a bheidh an tuarascáil ar fáil.

Is é an freagra a fuaireas ná:

Tá na cláir léinn ar fad do na ranganna go léir agus do na habhair go léir ins na bun-scoileanna fé bhreithniú ag an Roinn do reir a chéile.

Mar sin, nílim tagaithe ar aon chomhairle chinnte fós fén rud ar fad.

Do thuigfimis an t-Aire dá bhfreagródh sé i mBéarla: "I did not come to any conclusion with regard to the general matter." Taisbeánann sin gur maith an rud é a bheith dhá-theangach nuair a cuireann sé an "general matter" síos leis an rud ar fad. Níl mé an deimhnitheach go dtuigim in aon cor cad é an rud é "an rud ar fad." Is é seo an rud a thuigim. Cuireadh an Chomhairle Oideachais ar bun chun cúrsaí oideachais ins na bun scoileanna a bhreithniú suas go dtí 1922. Deineadh é sin mar go raibh sé soléir go raibh tréimhse áirithe cúrsaí oideachais i gceist. Ní raibh ann ach an tosach. Tá an-mhoill ar fad maidir le tabhairt amach na tuarascála. Annsan sar a raibh aon tuairim againn faoi cad a bhí le déanamh i dtaobh na tuarascála sin, h'iarradh ar an gComhairle Oideachais scéimeanna meán-oideachais agus clár na scoil sin a scrúdú; h-iarradh orthu é sin a dhéanamh san mbliain 1954. Níl an tuarascáil againn fós. Do ceapadh nach raibh ann ach cuid bheag den choras oideachais agus nuair a bheadh sin déanta go mbeadh an scéal réidh chun na ceisteanna fíorthábhachtacha a phlé. Ach cad a bheadh ar siúl ins na scoileanna náisiúnta go ceann dhá bhliain déag? Cad a bheadh dhá dhéanamh ins na ceard-scoileanna? Is dóigh liom go bhfuil an-dhíobháil dhá déanamh toisc nach bhfuil an méad sin socair. Ní féidir liom a rá go bhfuil an scéal chomh-fhábharach anois. Is ceart ár n-aigne a dhíriú air sin.

D'fhiafraíos den Aire le déanai maidir le litir a chuir an Cheard-Chomhairle amach:

an inseoidh sé an ndeachaigh an Cheard-Chomhairle agus an Roinn Tionscail agus Tráchtála i gcomhairle leis sular cuireadh amach an litir i mí Márta, 1961, i dtaobh na buncháilíochta oideachais a bheidh riachtanach, de réir chinneadh na Comhairle, d'ógánaigh a rachaidh le printíseacht céirde tar éis an chéad lá de Mheán Fómhair, 1963; agus an inseoidh sé cad ina thaobh go ndearnadh sa ghnó seo neamhshuim d'obair na scoileanna náisiúnta agus de scoláirí na scoileanna sin.

Duirt an t-Aire nárbh eol dó go ndearnadh sa gnó sin neamhshuim d'obair na scoileanna náisiúnta ná de scoláirí na scoileanna sin. Más fíor é sin, tá ceist mhór eile le freagairt againn. Ní fheadar conus a thuigfeadh éinne cad é an saghas córais oideachais atá againn nó cad é an leanúnachas atá ann mar cuireadh litir amach i mí na Márta. Ar aon chuma cuireadh amach i le h-aghaidh tuismitheoirí. Deirtear inti:

Is é seo an rud atá tábhachtach faoi láthair. Má tá páistí leat chun an séú rang sa bhunscoil a chríochniú an samhradh seo chugainn agus go bhfuil fút fostaíocht mar phrintísigh le ceirdeanna a lorg dóibh, ba chóir duit a dheimhniú go gcuirfear ar an rolla iad in am tráth le h-aghaidh na scoil-chúrsaí oiriúnacha i Meán Fómhair, 1961, ionas go mbeidh deis acu an bhuncháilíocht oideachais a ghnóthú atá ordaithe ag an gComhairle.

Is iomdha rud atá sa litir de thuismitheoirí. Má tá páisti ag freastal ar na scoileanna náisiúnta ní mór dóibh na scoileanna sin a fhágaint nuair a bheidh siad san séú rang agus dul go dti an ceard-scoil nó an scoil idirmheánach—direach agus an séú rang dhá fhágaint acu. Má deir an t-Aire nach bhfuil sé ag déanamh neamhshuim de scoileanna náisiúnta ní thuigim i mBéarla nó i nGaeilge é.

Deir sé:

...gur chéim fhíorthábhachtach a bheadh ann chun cúrsaí printíseachta a fheabhsú buncháilíocht oideachais mar a leanas a bheith riachtanach d'ógánaigh a bheidh ag dul le printíseacht i gceirdeanna tar éis an lú lá de Mheán Fómhair, 1963:—

(a) Pas in ábhair léinn áirithe sa Scrúdú Teastais do Ghairm-Chúrsaí Lae (An Roinn Oideachais, Brainse an Ghairmoideachais) nó

(b) pás in ábhair áirithe sa Scrúdú don Mheanteistiméireacht (An Roinn Oideachais, Brainse an Mheánoideachais) nó

(c) cáilíocht oideachais éigin a mheasfaidh an Chomhairle a bheith ar aon dul le (a) nó (b).

Chuireas ceist ar an Aire Tionscail agus Tráchtála i dtaobh an ruda agus dúirt sé nach raibh aon eolas ná cumhacht aige i dtaobh an scéil agus gur cheart scríobhadh chuig Cathaoirleach na Ceard-Chomhairle. D'fhiafraíos de cén limistéir den tír ar bhain an litir leis. Scriobh sé chugam agus dúirt gur bhain an litir leis an Stát ina iomláine agus le buachaillí atá chun an séu rang san bhunscoil a chríochnú an samhradh seo chugainn.

Deireann sé go gcaithfidh buachaill bheith ós cionn 15 bliana d'aois chun dul isteach mar phrintíseach. Caithfidh tú dul siar go dtí Tuarascáil na Roinne Oideachais le haghaidh 1956-57 chun an t-eolas atá ag teastáil uait a fháil amach ós rud é gurab í sin an tuarascáil is déanaí atá againn agus a bhfuil na nithe seo cláraithe ann.

When I look at page 79 of the Report of the Department of Education for the year 1956-57 I find that boys and girls are arranged according to each section. We find when we turn to the sixth standard—the importance of this is that it gives us the figures for boys and girls—there were a certain number of boys, some of them under 11 years, some under 12, some under 13. Of the boys over 13 but under 14 there were 9,500. There were 17,242 boys in the sixth standard under 14 years of age and over 14 but under 15 there were only 2,152. Over 15 but under 16 there were only 185 so that the boys the Ceard Comhairle are dealing with in this circular are normally in the sixth standard when they are under 14 years of age. Then we see a circular sent out to parents warning them that in the future if their boys want to enter any of the principal trades they must get into a particular class in a technical school or a secondary school as soon as they have finished in the sixth standard.

There we are up against the question of what is the outlook on the work in the national schools in respect of boys over 12 years of age and particularly we are up against the question of what effect it is likely to have on the national schools when boys at 14 years of age are told they have to get out of the national schools if they are to have any chance of going in for apprenticeship courses. That strikes me in relation to what the function of the national school is and I wonder if I would be committing a serious blunder if I asked the Council of Education to report on what the educational scheme should be for boys after the age of 12 and whether the effect of the situation on the national schools now is a depression in importance and outlook of the national schools.

I said earlier that it was all a question of time. Because of lack of proper timing all kinds of frustrations have been brought about in this country in the economic as well as the educational field. I am talking about delays in facing up to things in the Department of Education and suggesting that these delays cause a very considerable amount of frustration not only in the educational scheme but for successive Ministers and for staffs of the Department. A lot of the delays are not the fault of the Minister or of Departmental staffs. They are brought about by a lack of a sense of tempo which undermines the outlook and consequently grants of financial assistance which are necessary are not available.

I think we should not try to paint over the situation in so far as our people are concerned because they do not know at the moment, because of confusion, where the national school is leading to and where the various schemes of education come in. This confusion has very serious effects on a number of people. There must be a feeling among them that there is some kind of a gap in understanding of what is being done and what ought to be done and what will be done systematically in the national schools for boys and girls of 13, 14 and 15 years of age. A number of people would be very irritated if they thought that at 15 years of age a boy must leave the national school. That situation is not clarified in the plan the Minister suggests—the plan he says they are considering in the Department. This is an important question which can only be discussed in the open.

It involves various classes of teachers. I should like to know whether the Minister proposes that the Council of Education or some other body—it might easily be a body that would take the place of the Council of Education—would examine the dovetailing of the higher standards of the national school with the lower classes in the secondary school and whatever is being done in the vocational schools by way of continuing education.

There is another aspect of it which is also very important. In this morning's newspapers we had the first rattle of an inter-teachers' organisation row where representatives of the Vocational Teachers' Organisation come out into the open with all kinds of inflammatory reactions to something that was said by the I.N.T.O. in relation to what is implied in this circular. Are we to have the whole system of education disturbed by a fight between the technical teachers on the one hand and the national teachers on the other as to whom the children belong? I should like to know from the Minister what solution he has by way of clearing the air for the prevention of disputes and disagreements of this kind arising between vital sections of the teaching profession.

I think it would be a very bad thing that it should appear at all and particularly that it should develop and I suggest that the reason for this is that there has been no systematic statement from the Ministry as to what exactly is finally and completely decided on the course up to 12 years of age in the national schools and on what course of instruction based on that it is intended to continue in the national schools. Therefore I would ask the Minister what his plans are for outlining, in the same way as was outlined by the Council of Education, a scheme of instruction for national schools up to 12 years. I expect that the Council of Education has outlined a scheme of instruction for secondary schools and I would ask what is going to be done about a scheme of instruction in national schools.

I would ask the Minister whether he accepts and fully approves of the circular issued by An Cheard-Chomhairle. Does he consider, looking at the personnel of An Cheard-Chomhairle, that it is a mistake that the only teaching represented on it is the technical side? It has always been a tradition that the technical education side of things, from the way in which it was started and continued, was a kingdom in itself. Particularly with the favourable position of the tecnical side in having public representatives associated with it in every part of the country and local rates behind it as financial strength, the tendency is for the emphasis on development and control to be on the technical side. They have extended somewhat widely into the continuation side of education implying that the children coming to their classes required a brushing up in the courses they had got in the national schools.

I think a situation where it is possible for a circular of this kind to be issued, without representatives of education bodies or teacher bodies other than the technical people on the council, is a great mistake because, the more there is general understanding of the reasons why decisions are taken, the easier it is to take correct decisions and to have those decisions understood. I would ask the Minister to recognise that the Ceard-Chomhairle, the circumstances in which the circular was issued and the terms of the circular are things which require his attention as Minister for Education if his surrounds generally, which include managers, teachers and the parents of the country, are not to be considerably upset and destroyed.

The Minister is making certain changes which he feels will improve facilities for teachers to equip themselves with a greater and better knowledge of the Irish language. The Minister, I think, may be on the right lines, but I should like to ask him about the preparatory colleges which were closed down. The college in Dingle, I understand, was handed over to the religious order that was managing the school already and in Galway I do not know to whom the college was transferred. Do I understand it has been transferred also?

Dr. Hillery

Yes.

General Mulcahy

To the same body managing the school already?

Dr. Hillery

To the former manager.

General Mulcahy

In Ballyvourney the same?

Dr. Hillery

Yes and in Tourmakeady; four schools.

General Mulcahy

To the same managers?

Dr. Hillery

Yes.

General Mulcahy

I would like to ask the Minister the conditions under which the schools were transferred. Is it a condition that these schools will be carried on as A secondary schools? Are there any conditions as to whether both day pupils and boarders will be catered for?

Dr. Hillery

They will be the same as private schools; they will be open to all.

General Mulcahy

Including day pupils?

Dr. Hillery

The managers are absolutely at liberty.

General Mulcahy

In the transfer of these schools put specifically in those areas for language purposes there was a condition that they should be carried on as A schools? Was there any condition that day pupils would be admitted? I would ask the Minister whether he proposes to make an offer on travelling facilities or travelling allowances to be paid to day pupils attending these schools who come from Irish speaking homes in the neighbourhood. He will appreciate that in most of the rural technical schools the practice has developed of paying travelling expenses for pupils under certain conditions while secondary schools have no such facilities or encouragement and there is a lack of equity in certain cases. I would ask him whether with a view to encouraging children of the Irish speaking districts in which these schools are situated, he will offer a scheme of travelling allowances. I suggest it would be an appropriate thing to do and would considerably help to encourage children in those areas to take advantage of secondary education there.

I would ask the Minister, as I asked last year, to tell us, in so far as he is up against the working of schools, where is the Gaeltacht? The Minister will be aware that when the last census was taken and the Gaeltacht Ministry was being set up, a special enumeration was made regarding the condition of the language in homes in these areas. As the director of the Central Statistics Office made public in a paper recently, when the results of this census, taken in the normal way by the Garda, was checked in sample areas by inspectors of the Department of Education, the discrepancies were so great that the Central Statistics Office could not have its reputation tarnished by publishing the figures. There may be something to be said for that but there is nothing to be said for a Minister for Education not knowing what kind of a district he is dealing with and not knowing where in the country those schools are that are really carrying out the work of education effectively through the medium of Irish and thus serving the districts that are Irish speaking.

Apart from the general necessity for commonsense people interested in the continuance of the Irish language as a vernacular in the districts where it is traditionally preserved, there is every reason why the Minister for Education would be able to say: "As far as we are concerned we can advise anybody who wants to know that the Irish language is living in this area." I think the Minister will have to be asked what the position is with regard to that and I feel he will understand that it is not merely inquiring in a general kind of way but that it is the constructive carrying out of a systematic inquiry in relation to a very important thing.

I should like to ask the Minister what has happened with regard to the research body which I understood was being set up on the advice of the Council of Education to see what was to be done to deal with the use of Irish in schools in the most effective way. I would like to know on what lines that body has been looking into the matter and when we will have a report.

Again, I should like to ask the Minister what is the position in the city of Dublin in relation to parents who wish to have their children educated in the primary school through the medium of Irish. The problem of parents of that kind is a very serious one and the story is a very long one. The story is one that has been surrounded with frustrations from the very start when Scoil Colmcille and Scoil Mhuire were set up. The parents, who were giving their children Irish at the fireside and who were sending their children to school with pre-school Irish, sought to get a pirmary school where they could be assured that children with pre-school Irish would get their education through the medium of Irish. They were told that one school was as good as another and that there was nothing that could be done in any school in Irish that could not be done in another. There was not an acceptance of the position that children without Irish ought not to come to a school set up to give education through that medium. It was only when things got bad that it was agreed that a preparatory school be set up and that the children who had no Irish should go there.

There were always serious difficulties and if anybody deserved a monument in the city of Dublin it was the parents who brought up their children speaking Irish at home and wished that they should get their education through the medium of Irish. I have a feeling that the only monument of that kind they could get is being gradually bulldozed out of the way. I think it is only seven or eight years ago since there was some kind of a dream that a new school would be built to replace Scoil Mhuire. There were all kinds of difficulties. The Department of Education wanted more room and wanted to remove the children from one part of the school to another. I gather from some parents now that, far from anything being done to provide a suitable school to continue the work that has been so magnificently done in Scoil Mhuire, the situation is getting worse and worse. The growth of the Department of Education, in order to deal with all the additional work it has to do, has resulted in these people being treated with a certain amount of Departmental misunderstanding and neglect.

The Minister has seen what parents can do, even in recent years, in relation to the attempt to get an Irish speaking school in Rathfarnham. Something is being done to see that Miss Gavan Duffy's school will not be bulldozed out of the way. Will the Minister take a personal interest in Scoil Mhuire, a school that has done remarkable work in facilitating parents who wished to have their children educated through the medium of Irish? Will he see that the work that was done in Scoil Mhuire since it was established will as well merit any reverence that might be given to the work done in Scoil Eanna, Scoil Íde or Cullenswood House? If there is not an understanding of what has been done by these parents in Dublin and if there is not an understanding of what Scoil Mhuire means to the parents of today there is no use in hoping that a committee such as the committee considering what should be done for Irish will do anything or advise anybody.

What can they do or know that has anything of the example in it of what has been done by these parents and the teachers in these schools? There are something over 200 children in Scoil Mhuire at the moment. I do not know the position in Scoil Colmcille and I would like to know what the position is there. The main question is whether the Minister realises the intensity with which large numbers of parents in the city of Dublin want their children to get their primary education through the medium of Irish and whether he will see that the example set by these people will be maintained in a building worthy of it.

Some years ago there was a site in Marlborough Street on which it was thought that an appropriate school could be established. There was also the thought that somewhere else on the North side such a school might be provided but it would be a very poor thing for some of us, looking back, to see a Garden of Remembrance established at the corner of Parnell Square if Scoil Mhuire not only continued but continued in a way that will make it shine as a monument to what parents, teachers and children were able to do in difficult days when it might be said we had more hope than many people now have. The hope that establishes these things may flicker but it is not dying. I ask the Minister to face up to the question of what new roads are going to be opened to the people in the city of Dublin who want to educate their children through the medium of Irish and for that purpose give them Irish by the fireside in their own homes.

There are other problems in the educational world at present but I think the solution of many of them lies in the ordering and streamlining of mind in the Ministry of Education on the broad grounds of educational policy. The Minister has been able to get a little more money than was available in the past. I note that he gives a percentage—14 per cent. or something like that—as to what education costs out of the national income. I do not think it would be profitable to make comparisons in regard to percentages but if some of the obscurities could be cleared up in the educational pathways that we want to set out for our people—it was thought that work of the Council of Education might lead to that result— it would be easy to get all the other things, any of those problems of finance or otherwise settled.

The Minister may have some anxiety in regard to some of the questions raised by the recent report arising on the question of payments, but I suggest that a very considerable amount of work has been done by the committees of conciliation and arbitration and that a further very considerable amount can be done on that basis —getting clear about the realities of teachers' work and qualifications and what is a reasonable plan of payment for them—but even that cannot be fully undertaken as you will not have sound grounds on which to discuss those things as long as we are in the obscure position that we do not know who is moulding the future or the work of the national schools.

I suggest that the Minister should not simply say that he sees nothing that is being done by the Ceard Comhairle that ignores either the problems of the national teachers or the national schools themselves. I do not think he can shut his eyes to the fact that they are bound to be affected by it, perhaps properly, but it would be disastrous if, while the schools are affected in some way, there is no clear mind as to what the function of the national school is for children from the age of 12 upwards.

Mr. Wycherley

The standard of any country is judged by the standard of education acquired by the people of that country. Ireland was always famous for the standard of its education down the centuries. It was widely known throughout the world as the Island of Saints and Scholars. We have continued, to a great extent, to uphold that status and our representatives abroad have indeed upheld that very high tradition in the councils of the world. In U.N.O. or wherever they go, they show that they are able to hold their own, that they are highly educated and that they represent an intellectual and intelligent race—the Irish people.

That high standard has been acquired largely in the universities and the secondary schools. In recent times, the technical schools have come a long way also in providing good training for their pupils but I think the weakest link in our educational system is the national school and that is where the system should be strongest. That weak link, I believe, is due to cramming Irish down the throats of little children who have no knowledge of the language in the home. Unfortunately for those children, they are not accustomed to hearing Irish from their own parents and their first years at school are completely hampered by compulsory Irish which is, if you like, foreign to them. It is a pity that is so but I believe those first years in school are largely wasted through the teaching not alone of the Irish language itself but through the teaching of other subjects through the medium of Irish also.

I have no objection to the Irish language I appreciate it and I should like to see it revived but I can see children leaving the national schools practically illiterate as a result of compulsory Irish in their tender years. Too much of it at that age is very bad for the children. They should get their first lessons in learning their tables in the English language. They should get a good foundation in the English language because that is the language of 95 per cent. of the homes of this country. We are only codding ourselves and ruining the education of the children and hampering them in the first six years of their school period. If children received a good foundation in the English language in the first few years of their school period they could be switched over to the Irish language. It is not too much for a young person to learn two languages provided it is taught at the proper time. The proper time to teach a second language is when the child is of an age to appreciate the importance of that language which, in my view, would be at the age of 12 years.

I welcome the Minister's statement in connection with a grant for the painting and decorating of schools. It is essential that the schools be brightened up and made attractive for the children. A nicely decorated school gives the children a good impression. They are happier in school when the place is neatly kept, clean and painted. Every encouragement should be given in that matter.

We read a great deal in the Sunday papers recently about this flare up. It is a pity that such a very important organisation as the I.N.T.O. should be showing such rebellion. It is not a good example for the children. The teachers should give good example to the children. Too many strikes will be the ruination of this country. We cannot afford them. The sooner commonsense prevails, the better. We expect great commonsense from teachers who carry out the entire system of education. Teachers make a great impression on young minds and it is very important that that impression should be a good one.

I understand that the school in Ballyvourney is being transferred to the Brothers of the De La Salle Order. I wish them the best of luck. I hope the area will not be any the poorer as a result.

There was an industrial school in my area that was closed down. Mushrooms are now growing there. I hope the same thing will not happen in the Ballyvourney school but that the good work will continue of training boys. Undoubtedly, education is very important.

Vocational education is next in importance to primary education for the majority of people who remain in this country and seek a living here. It is not necessary for a boy to be a brilliant student to be a good tradesman. I have known lads who were not so good at school who became excellent tradesmen and craftsmen. I would not like that anything would be done to prevent that type of boy from developing his skill as a tradesman. Technical education is of very great importance. When technical education was first started in this country, it was primarily for the purpose of helping pupils to make better use of their hands, to make them better tradesmen, to teach them to carry out handiwork at home, on their holdings, farms or shops. In the course of time there has been a big swing away from that and we are leading to a form of education which will fit people for office jobs and emigration. The whole system of education is designed for the passing of examinations. When the certificate has been secured it is a question of a job or emigration. Boys and girls must be educated if they are to get jobs and it is a good thing that they should be educated before they emigrate but we must not lose sight of the fact that the majority of the boys and girls who remain in the country require to be trained in the technical school in the art of making things by hand for the household, or in cookery and housewifery, which was the primary purpose of vocational education when it was started. I should not like to see too great a departure from that purpose.

The secondary schools and the universities can do their part in providing higher education for those who go into the Civil Service and the professions.

I congratulate the Minister on the way he has presented his Estimate and for the manner in which he has received the few complaints we have made to him. He is an admirable Minister, very courteous and obliging. He should make a good job of his position as Minister for Education.

Pádraig Ó Dubhlaoich

Sé an rud is mó a thaitn liom sa mhéid a dúirt an tAire ná an rud a dúirt sé nuair a bhí sé ag cur síos ar an méid airgid atá le caitheamh i mbliana, sé sin, gurb é an intinn atá aige féin faoi ná go mbeidh orainn leanúint fós de bheith ag cur leis an soláthar i gcomhair oideachais sula mbeimid i riocht a rá go bhfuil córas oideachais againn atá gar do bheith lán-sásúil. Bhí a lán rudaí maithe a ndearna sé tagairt doibh, ach bhí rudaí eile nach ndúirt sé faic fúthu, cur i gcás an tuarascáil ar phá na múinteoirí de gach saghas. Bhíomar go léir ag súil go n-abródh sé rud éigin faoi sin.

Is maith an rud é go bhfuil níos mó múinteoirí ann anois agus go bhfuil méadú freisin ar líon na bpáistí sna scoileanna. Is maith liom a chloisteáil chomh maith ón Aire go bhfuil ar intinn aige an coibhneas idir scoláirí agus múinteoirí a laghdú. Tá rud eigin á dhéanamh aige sna scoileanna a íoctar ar bhonn caipitíochta, 's é sin na scoileanna móra, ach ba cheart go ndéanfaí é i leith na scoileanna tuaithe. I dTuaisceart na hEireann 35 an líon in aghaidh gach ranga sna bunscoileanna, 25 sna ceardscoileanna agus 20 sna meánscoileanna. Ba mhaith liom dá mbeadh riail ann nach mbeadh níos mó ná 30 ag aon mhúinteoir ní i rang amháin ach ar fad; i scoileanna dhá oide b'fhéidir nach mbeadh ach 10 nó 12 i rang amháin ach dá mbeadh ceithre rang an duine acu b'fhéidir go mbeadh 50 páiste faoi mhúinteoir amháin. Ba cheart laghdú ar an gcoibhneas sa chás sin.

Speaking on this Estimate in other years I have always expressed the hope that I would see a common body of teachers but I am afraid that the report of those who dealt with the parity question struck a blow at that. It is one of the worst things that has happened in a long time. I thought the Minister would make some reference to that in his statement but he did not. Primary teachers feel they are no longer regarded as teachers, that they have been belittled in that report; not alone that, but that the children whom they teach have been belittled and that neither they nor the children they teach are regarded as being in the same class as the teachers and children of vocational or secondary schools. The acceptance of that report is something we very much regret and we hope it will not be acted upon.

Instead of teachers discussing at their meetings problems of education they are back where they were years ago talking about salaries. I do not want to go any further on that except to tell the Minister that never have the primary teachers felt so humiliated as when that report was accepted. It takes from many of the good things which have been done over the past few years. We hoped that a solution had been found for the problems about which we have been fighting for so many years but now we are back again almost where we started.

I had expected, too, some reference by the Minister to scholarships, to the scheme which he said was being prepared to give more scholarships and more opportunities to the children of parents who cannot afford secondary education. Unless I misread the Minister's speech or did not hear him correctly, I do not think he made reference to that. We had hoped he would have given us the scheme he had in mind.

Another matter on which I have spoken before on this Estimate is the integration of the various educational systems. On a previous occasion the Minister said he considered there was integration. I may not have made myself clear in what I said but I think there is not. There is a gap between primary, vocational and secondary education, certainly between primary and vocational education. To take an example, not mentioning the school where it occurred, out of a class of 18 in a vocational schools eight were successful in the certificate examination. Of those eight, seven had gone as far as second year in the secondary school. It may seem that eight successes out of eighteen is a very poor result but the fault lies not with the teacher but in the fact that that teacher was dealing with children who had come from a primary school, perhaps having finished at 12 years of age.

In my own county the rule is that a child who finishes sixth standard in the primary school at the age of 12 or 13, even without having done a primary certificate examination, is eligible for the vocational school. Along with those children from the primary school there may be children who have done perhaps two or three years at a secondary school. The teacher is set the impossible task of trying to teach a class in which some children have completed only sixth standard in the primary school and in which others have done maybe two, three or four years in a secondary school. There is a loss somewhere there.

There should be some system whereby the child, after finishing his primary course, can do a couple of further years before going into the vocational school. Then the classes would be more on a level with his educational standard and the teacher would have the opportunity of giving instruction which the children would be able to absorb. He would not be held back by those who are too far behind and he would not have to go too far ahead with those who are advanced. The gap for the 12-year old finishing sixth standard and the child in the secondary school is too big for the teacher. Until there is some solution of that problem, full advantage cannot be taken of vocational education by younger children.

On the matter of the grant in respect of children of Irish-speaking families —I think Deputy Mulcahy mentioned something about that—I would ask the Minister to consider a county such as my county where groups of migrants in Land Commission holdings speak the Irish language as the language of the family. They are entitled to that grant just the same as families in Gaeltacht areas. We have several large colonies in my constituency. I think they also are entitled to that grant.

The Minister mentioned that an arrangement has now been reached where posts of responsibility have been created in capitation schools. Teachers in those schools can now become principal and will get an allowance of £60 for a single man and £75 for a married man. It is a matter of one post out of four. Certainly it is a move in the right direction. All of the four teachers may have a lot of service but only one can be appointed to the post of responsibility. I would ask the Minister to consider the grant of a long service increment to those teachers who will not attain the post of responsibility.

The body of teachers to which I belong would also like to see inaugurated a scheme of vocational guidance to assist pupils in the selection of careers suited to their ability. There is far too much aimless drifting of children when they leave school. They have no idea of what they are fitted for or what they want to do. Such a scheme would help them and could lessen such aimless drifting of children into occupations in which after a time they find they have no interest and in which they can make no progress.

I want the Minister to consider amending the regulation governing the payment of a death gratuity to the widow of a teacher so as to give the widow the option of accepting, instead of the gratuity, a pension calculated at some rate such as the rate for the serving teacher—one-eightieth of the salary of the deceased person multiplied by the number of years during which he taught. It would not be an expensive thing. The experience of the ills and mortality of members of our organisation shows that an average of 18 male teachers die each year leaving widows. The maximum number of widows in any one year is about 350. The scheme would apply only to those of the future because existing widows would already have drawn their gratuity. I appeal to the Minister to give that point favourable consideration. I would ask the Minister, even if a report on the question of parity for teachers has been accepted, to act upon it.

Mr. Palmer

I came in here having sat in this House for about four hours during the discussion on the Estimate for the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. Therefore I was not present when the Minister made his opening statement. I have been glancing through it to see what the Estimate contains and I regret very much that I must speak impromptu, without any preparation whatsoever. However, I think I can state as a preliminary to whatever I have to say that during his period of office the Minister has done some good in primary, secondary, vocational and university education. Very many things still remain to be done.

One point in relation to primary education concerns the training of national teachers. For the past 40 years almost the position was that trainees were put into a college or a school and cut off entirely from the public. It was always a policy of the I.N.T.O.—the organisation to which I belonged before my retirement—that teachers should, after their secondary education, proceed to the university or at least be trained from among those who had graduated at the university. I think that is now more or less the policy of the Department of Education.

No matter what anyone says the foundation of education in this country is laid in the national schools. If it is not well laid there, secondary, vocational or university education cannot be a great success. Therefore, it is very important that the primary teachers should be trained in such a way that they can develop the educational standard required for pupils in the primary school, develop their character and give them that broad outlook on life that can be given to young people to a certain extent and train them as good citizens of the State.

The trouble is that because of the School Attendance Act the great majority of pupils leave the primary schools at the age of 14 years. I would say that about 80 per cent. of the children of this country receive their education only in the national schools. They cannot proceed further even though facilities for secondary and vocational education are now available in many towns and villages. It is, therefore, of the greatest importance that the national teachers should receive first of all, their education at a university. Later on they should spend a couple of years at a training college where they will get experience of actual teaching.

Children should not leave the national school until at least the age of 15 years or 16 years. I suppose the Minister has no time to do that now but after the next general election I hope that whatever Government or Minister is in power will raise the school-leaving age to at least 16 years. It is most unfortunate that when our children leave school at 14 years they never make any attempt to study even though they would have vocational and secondary school education available in the towns and villages. They do not even undertake self-instruction or study. They could study history, geography and various other subjects that might be useful to them in life. If they were to read only newspapers and magazines that would be useful to them, it would broaden their outlook on life and give them a knowledge of national and world affairs.

The education of those people depends upon the prosperity of the State. At an earlier period the people of this country were so fond of learning that our island became known as the island of saints and scholars. That was the period of Ireland's Golden Age. I do not know about the scholars or the saints but I am sure there are fewer saints now than then. We cannot now call this the Golden Age although nearly everything you can think of in the form of facilities are available.

If children were compulsorily required to attend the national schools until they were 15 or 16, they could then go to the vocational school in cases where they were unable to get secondary education. The ideal solution for children who could not go on to the university would be for them to leave the national school at the age of 14, have secondary education for at least two years and vocational education for two further years until the age of 18. But what is happening? When the majority of our children leave the national school, they go no further. Their intentions then are to emigrate but whether our children remain in this country or emigrate they require education both secular and religious. During the time they would be in primary, vocational and secondary schools, not only should they be taught the secular subjects but they should also be given religious education.

Many of our schools are in a bad condition. I will admit that during all the time since native Government was established the various Governments have done their best to build new schools and reconstruct old ones. It was a difficult task because when national schools were built during the English régime they were very primitive. The sites were unsuitable. There were no sanitary arrangements whatever but now all the schools that have been built, whether primary or vocational, can compare very favourably with the schools in any part of the world.

The school building programme is making great headway. We must admit this is a small, divided country but even with the resources at the disposal of the various Governments much good has been done. We have been able to build new, up to date primary schools and certainly the vocational schools are far in advance of anything we have built by way of national schools. I often wonder why the vocational schools are such expensive, modern structures by comparison with the national schools. It also makes me wonder why it is that there is no financial provision made by the Department of Education for the erection of secondary schools throughout the country.

That is why many of our secondary schools in towns and villages are more or less run by private enterprise. A number of teachers with secondary education qualifications come together in those towns and villages, take over some old building and start up a school. Surely if primary education can qualify for building grants, grants should also be made available for the erection of secondary schools. I know the task is difficult.

Our list of priority in education should be primary schools first, secondary schools second and then vocational schools and universities where the parents can afford them or where scholarships are available. In a country like this, there should be a system of scholarships under which children of even the poorest parents would be enabled to proceed from the primary schools to secondary and university education whether their future permits them to live in this country or not. So long as children and young men and women are well educated they will be a credit to Ireland wherever they go and they will be able to make a good living anywhere in the world.

In our primary schools we have what might be regarded as retarded children. It is very difficult to make the necessary arrangements for the proper training of those children so that they can live useful lives later. There is the really retarded child and what one might call the backward child. It is a problem that has often been discussed at teachers' congresses and meetings. Some people have put forward the suggestion that retarded children in a school should be put together to form a class of their own. That is not so easy to do because it might require a special teacher. Furthermore, unless a child is really mentally deficient it would not be well to put him aside like that because it would only cause mental embarrassment.

On the other hand when you have to try to bring the mentally retarded children in a class along with the rest of the class you will find them falling behind the ordinary intelligent children and it becomes necessary to hold them in classes for a second or third year. That also has a bad effect on the child's mind and so the problem becomes more difficult of solution. I have found that many children, retarded intellectually, are very useful with their hands and that, if given a good vocational training, they become quite useful, indeed sometimes brilliant tradesmen. Some of them become a credit to the schools from which they came.

I said at the outset I was glad the Minister had decided to close down the preparatory colleges and that in future teachers will graduate from universities and will not be segregated from their fellows and from those with whom they will have contact later in their work. This brings me to the question of the teaching of Irish. It is rather remarkable that after forty years of native Government this question has not been properly solved. Various excuses have been given in that connection. In 1923 or 1924 a Primary Schools Programme Commission was set up, representative of primary, secondary and university teachers and professors and various other people like industrialists and agriculturists. Their job was to establish a programme for primary schools and they dealt particularly with this subject of the teaching of Irish in the national schools.

Then when children, even from Galltacht areas where parents had no knowledge of Irish, came into schools for the first time they were taught their subjects through the medium of Irish. One can easily understand the mental effect this had on the children. Many of them had never a word of Irish till they came to school to hear the teacher speaking only in Irish. Young children who had gone to school full of hope, though perhaps with a little reluctance, had the frustrating experience so young in life of being asked to learn everything through the medium of a language they did not understand.

My references in this respect are to children coming from homes where no Irish is spoken. Accordingly, while it could not be said that Irish was compulsory, still if teachers did not carry out the programme in the manner laid down, their reports would not be such as to enable them to advance to a standard of teaching regarded as sufficiently proficient to qualify them for such awards as the Carlisle and Blake premium. However, there were many inspectors who in their wisdom understood the position and were rather lenient in their reports. There were other inspectors at that time who certainly gave bad reports to the teacher unless he taught through the medium of Irish, in fact right up through the classes, even though the programme stated that this should be so only in the case where teachers had a thorough knowledge of Irish and the children could imbibe teaching through Irish. Of course it was strictly carried out so many teachers suffered in increments and so forth.

The position eased as time went on but still, so far as I know, that is the present programme. I do know that the present Minister set up a commission to see what could be done to improve the teaching of Irish and by what system it could best be taught in primary, secondary and vocational schools and even in the university. It is still a problem. It has been always the policy of the Irish National Teachers' Organisation that children should be taught when they come to school through the medium of the language they best understand. I am talking about the children in the Galltacht because of course in Fíor-Gaeltacht areas where the home language is only Irish, children should be taught through Irish and teachers should be appointed who are native speakers of Irish to teach them.

I do not think that very much advance has been made over the past 40 years to spread the Irish language. In fact, so far as I know—and I come from a Gaeltacht area or a BreacGhaeltacht—the language has certainly gone back during those 40 years and areas which were Fíor-Ghaeltacht 40 years ago are not now even Gaeltacht or Breac-Ghaeltacht, so there must be something wrong about the teaching of Irish. I do know, of course, that emigration, and perhaps the advance of tourism into those areas which are really holiday resorts, have had an effect on the people. They see people coming along well-dressed, with plenty of money to spend, with big motor cars touring around and they say: "What are we doing? What good has Irish done to us?" In spite of that there is no place as pleasant, no people as grand and as loving, as the real people of the Gaeltacht, the Fíor-Ghaeltacht, but I am afraid it is being wiped out.

I do not know how the Irish language can be improved and advanced and this made an Irish speaking country. That is the wish of all Irish people, real Irish people. That is our hope but how can it be attained? Teachers in national schools have always done their best to advance Irish, but once the children leave school with whatever knowledge of Irish they have they never speak another word of it and they do not hear it at home. It is taught in certain secondary schools and perhaps in the university to a certain extent, and after the passage of 750 years Irish is still the language in various parts of the country, but if you can restore it in 100 or in 200 years it will be good for the country.

Some fanatics, some enthusiasts, think it should be restored in 20, 30, or 50 years, but that can never be. The only way it could be restored is to teach it in the primary schools to the best of the teachers' ability and the best of the children's capacity to imbibe it and then to have such a system that all our children could have some secondary education, even for two years, and teach Irish as a subject, the vocational schools the same and also the university. That is the only way Irish could be restored within the next century.

I did not mean to speak tonight after having been here all the evening and anything I have said has been impromptu, but after 43 years' experience as a national teacher with fairly good or excellent reports, doing my best to teach Irish and all subjects, I think I can say that compulsory attendance at national schools should be raised to 15 or 16 years where there is no opportunity of children attending secondary or vocational schools. At the present time vocational schools are very far distant from many rural children. There is a system by which transport could be subsidised by the Department, and it is done in certain cases, but you must have so many pupils from a particular area in order that that subsidy should be granted.

I do not know whether at this stage I should refer to the trouble in Ballina. I would prefer not to because I may regard it as sub judice, but I do hope that, for the sake of harmony between the Department and the teachers and the present system of school management, somebody will arbitrate and bring the parties together so that a satisfactory solution may be obtained. We teachers and all members of the Irish National Teachers' Organisation have always been quite satisfied with the system of management of the schools in this country.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.