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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 20 Jun 1961

Vol. 190 No. 4

Committee on Finance. - Social Welfare (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, 1961—Second Stage.

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time. The explanatory memorandum which was circulated with this Bill will have given Deputies a comprehensive outline of the proposals in it. As explained in the memorandum, the main purpose of the Bill is to give effect to the decision of the Government, as announced by the Minister for Finance in his Budget Statement on 19th April last, to grant—as from 1st August next—increases in the rates of non-contributory old age, blind and widows' pensions, of unemployment assistance, and of the married person's allowance in the scheme of old age (contributory) pensions. The second important object of the Bill, also adverted to by the Minister for Finance, is the introduction of substantial concessions in regard to the means conditions for the receipt of Unemployment Assistance.

Apart from these matters arising from the Budget Statement, the opportunity offered by the Bill is being taken to bring in a number of other amendments of the law which experience has shown to be either desirable or necessary. Two of those amendments relate to the non-contributory scheme of widows' and orphans' pensions and provide respectively for a relaxation in relation to the assessment of means in certain cases and for an easement in the residence condition for the receipt of widow's pension. Other amendments proposed are designed to clarify the law in relation to the powers of deciding officers under the Social Welfare Acts, and to repeal an inoperative provision in the Old Age Pensions Acts. The remaining provisions of the Bill are concerned with strengthening the law in relation to abuses and to the recovery of overpayments of pension, assistance and benefits. I shall explain these various provisions in greater detail later.

In the first place, then, the Bill, giving effect to the increase announced in the Budget, provides for an increase of one shilling and sixpence per week in all non-contributory old age and blind pensions; the new rates of these pensions will thus be 30/-, 25/-, 20/- and 15/- a week, according to the means category of the pensioner.

Under the increases in rates of unemployment assistance, recipients themselves will get an increase of 1/6d. a week also, and they will in addition get the same extra amount for an adult dependant. Furthermore, if the recipient has dependent children, the Bill provides for an increase of 1/- each for the first and second child and for an increase of 1/6d. a week for the third and each subsequent child. Accordingly, a man who is on unemployment assistance and who has a wife and four dependent children will get an extra 8/- a week as from the 1st August next, while a man with a wife and six children will receive a total increase of 11/- a week as from that date. As I shall explain in due course, these increases in unemployment assistance rates will be augmented somewhat in certain cases as a result of the proposed easing of the means conditions for that scheme.

Widows' non-contributory pensions will also be increased by 1/6d. on the personal rate, by 1/- for each of the first two qualified children, and by 1/6d. for each subsequent qualified child. A non-contributory widow pensioner with four qualified children, therefore, will receive a weekly increase of 6/6d. in her pension.

A contributory old age pensioner who receives an allowance in respect of a spouse will also benefit. At present, the allowance for a wife or dependent husband which is contained in the old age contributory pension equals the maximum rate of non-contributory old age pension, and this allowance normally continues to be payable as a benefit to the surviving spouse of a deceased pensioner. Payment of the allowance, or of the survivor's benefit, disqualifies the spouse for receiving a non-contributory old age pension. As the maximum non-contributory old age pension is being increased from 28/6d. to 30/- it is necessary to increase the dependant's allowance and survivor's benefit correspondingly, in order to preserve the existing parity and to prevent anomaly. This charge will bring the contributory old age pension and allowance, for a married couple entitled to the maximum rate, up to £3. 10.0. a week.

Apart from the increases in pensions and in assistance payments which I have outlined, the Bill proposes to make other substantial concessions on the unemployment assistance side, and to make some desirable relaxations in relation to certain aspects of non-contributory widows' and orphans' pensions. With regard to unemployment assistance, there are, as things stand, two yearly means limits for participation in the scheme—a limit of £72. 16.0. which applies in rural areas and a limit of £98. 16.0. which applies in urban areas. Under Section 8 of the Bill a single yearly means limit of £100 will, from the 1st August next, apply throughout the State.

I might say here that the means test for unemployment assistance is essentially a rural problem, affecting, in the main, smallholders and their families. The vast majority of applicants for unemployment assistance in urban areas possess little or no means and the means limit is of no practical significance, nor does it constitute any problem, so far as those people are concerned. This is because the income of urban applicants is usually confined to their earnings from employment and such earnings do not, of course, count as means for unemployment assistance purposes. On the other hands, rural applicants frequently have means derived from the occupation of land. Therefore, as I have said, the problem is essentially rural.

The effect of the introduction of the new means limit will be to bring within the scope of the scheme additional numbers of persons in rural areas, mainly smallholders, with means ranging from £72 16s. 0. to £100 a year, who by reason of their means, are not at present eligible for any unemployment assistance. It is estimated that the number of persons who will thus be brought into the scheme will be up to 1,200,apart from their dependants. These additional beneficiaries—when regard is had to their means, to the new maximum rates of unemployment assistance and to the further concession I am just about to refer to—will qualify for payment of assistance at rates ranging from 18/6d. a week downwards, plus 2/6d. a week for each dependent child after the second such child.

The other concessionary provision affecting unemployment assistance is in Section 9 and proposes to increase the amount of assessed weekly means which is disregarded in determining the weekly rate of unemployment assistance payable in any particular case. At present, only the first 1/- of means is so disregarded. In future, the disregarded amount of assessed weekly means will be 2/- in the case of a person without a dependant and will be 5/- where the person has a dependant. Deputies will have noticed that in easing this condition of the scheme I have made a distinction between persons without dependants and persons with dependants. The House, I am sure, will welcome this innovation in favour of the person with family commitments. The concession will be of value to applicants with means and it will enable many recipients—approximately 16,000 at peak periods—to qualify for higher rates of unemployment assistance than heretofore, and, as I have said it will be especially beneficial to those who have large families.

The increase in the amount of weekly means disregarded will, of course, operate in addition to the increases in the rates of unemployment assistance provided for in Section 3 of the Bill. The effect of the improvement in the disregard will be to increase still further, by a 1/- a week for a person without a dependant, and by 4/- for a person who has a dependant, the rates of unemployment assistance payable where the assessed weekly means exceed 1/- and 4/- respectively. Taking this in conjunction with the increase in the rates, the combined result, in the case of a man with a wife and four children, with means in excess of 4/- a week, will be that he will receive a total increase of 12/- a week in his unemployment assistance as from 1st August next, while a man with a wife and six children, with more than 4/- a week means, will get a total increase of 15/- a week as from the same date.

I made passing reference earlier to concessions provided for in the Bill in relation to widows' and orphans' non-contributory pensions. One of these is similar to that introduced last year by the Social Welfare (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, 1960, in relation to non-contributory old age pensions, and concerns widows or orphans who may be in receipt of small statutory pensions from some other source, for example, from another Government. It sometimes happens under existing legislation that a small increase granted in the pension from the other source can cause a greater decrease in the widow's or orphan's pension payable by my Department, the net result being that the pensioner's total income is reduced. Section 15 of the Bill will ensure that such net losses of income do not occur in future.

In Section 11, an alteration is made, in favour of claimants, in the residence condition for widow's pension. As the law stands, a widow is disqualified for receipt of non-contributory widow's pension unless she has been resident in the State during the period of two years immediately preceding the date of her claim. A widow who has been absent from the country cannot, therefore, qualify for a pension until two years after her return unless, of course, she was in receipt of the pension at the time of her departure. I think this condition is unduly strict and a cause of hardship in some cases. Under the altered condition proposed in the Bill, two years' residence here, at any time, will be sufficient.

I now turn to the group of amendments framed to improve and strengthen social welfare legislation generally. Some doubts have arisen as to the correct interpretation of Section 42 of the Social Welfare Act, 1952, in regard to the power of deciding officers appointed under that Act to decide whether a person is or was in insurable employment, and to give decisions in respect of past events in relation to other matters arising under that section. An amendment of the section, designed to put these matters beyond doubt, is therefore included in the Bill. There is a provision in the Old Age Pensions Act of 1908 for the making of regulations providing for notice to be given by registrars of births and deaths to pension officers or local pension committees, of the deaths of persons over seventy years of age. The provision has never operated in this country, and is now being repealed.

The purpose of the remaining provisions is to remove obstacles and to strengthen and improve the law in relation to abuses and to the recovery of overpayments of pension, assistance or benefit. When the Social Welfare (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, 1960, was before the House last year, I referred to the fact that the State is at the loss of considerable sums of money every year as a result of fraudulent claims to non-contributory old age pensions and false statements as to means. That Act went some way towards strengthening the law in this respect. The present Bill similarly contains a number of provisions which will, it is hoped, help in the first place to discourage people from making fraudulent claims and giving false information in relation to unemployment benefit and unemployment assistance claims.

Of all the social insurance and assistance services administered by my Department fraud is most commonly experienced in relation to unemployment benefit and unemployment assistance. Special provisions to reinforce administrative measures against fraud and so help in reducing it to the minimum are being introduced. Anyone who is convicted in court of fraud in relation to an unemployment benefit claim will, apart from any penalty the court may impose, be disqualified for receiving unemployment benefit for six months from the date of the conviction. Similarly, anyone who is convicted of fraud in relation to an unemployment assistance claim will lose his right to unemployment assistance for six months, in addition to any penalty the court may impose. If the offence relates to a qualification certificate, the offender, on conviction, will be debarred from obtaining or holding such a certificate for a similar period.

The maximum fine which can be imposed by the court for offences in relation to unemployment assistance is being increased from £25 to £50, thereby bringing it into line with the limit already in operation in relation to other social welfare services. Section 58 of the Widows' and Orphans' Pensions Act, 1935, which deals with offences for which legal proceedings may be instituted, is being strengthened. In future, the concealment of any material fact for the purpose of obtaining or continuing a pension will also be an offence under that section. The House will notice that these provisions, which are contained in Sections 10, 13, 14 and 18, apply only to offences committed on or after the 1st August next.

Sections 7, 12, 17 and 19 of the Bill will facilitate the recovery of money obtained as a result of fraudulent claims to pensions, benefit or assistance. Provision is being made, for example, which will enable current payments of pension to be withheld in recovery of overpayments of old age pension and widows' pension fraudulently received and in respect of which a decree is being sought or has been obtained in court. Power is also being taken in the Bill to permit an over-payment of benefit, pension or assistance fraudulently received to be recovered by withholding all or part of any benefit, pension or assistance which may subsequently become payable to the claimant.

In the case of non-contributory old age pension, the right of recovery will extend to payments to which the spouse, widow or widower, as the case may be, of the claimant becomes entitled by way of pension, benefit or assistance. The Bill will also make it possible for the pension, or benefit or assistance of a third party to be offset, with his consent, against a debt due by someone else on foot of an overpayment of a non-contributory old age pension. In connection with these various proposals concerning fraud and the recovery of consequential overpayments, I should like to emphasise that the tightening up of the law in this way is aimed only at those claimants who dishonestly get, or attempt to get, public money to which they are not entitled.

I now come to the question of cost. On the basis of present numbers of pensioners and beneficiaries, the increases in pensions and assistance rates proposed in Sections 2 to 4 of the Bill will cost £768,000 in a full year. Of this sum £486,000 is in respect of non-contributory old age pensions, £170,000 is in respect of unemployment assistance and £112,000 is in respect of widows' pensions. In addition, the relaxations in the unemployment assistance means conditions will cost an extra £80,000 a year and the concessions in relation to widows' pensions an extra £1,500. The total yearly cost of the proposed increases and concessions in social assistance comes therefore to the very substantial sum of £849,500. The cost in the current financial year, as from the 1st August next, will be £567,000 and this amount will, of course, be additional to the £19 million already provided for in the Book of Estimates for social assistance requirements in the current year. The increase of 1/6d. in the old age (contributory) pension married person's allowance, which is provided for in Section 5 of the Bill, will be met out of the Social Insurance Fund and will cost in the region of £49,000 in a full year, or £33,000 in the current financial year. The total cost in the present year is therefore £600,000 as provided for by the Minister for Finance in his Budget Statement on the 19th April last.

The number of people who will benefit under this Bill is of the order of 220,000—old people and persons who are blind, widows and their children, and the unemployed and their wives and children. This is apart altogether from the 200,000 or so men, women and children who received new or extended benefits as from 6th January last under the various contributory schemes administered by my Department. Most of the beneficiaries will be the same people who had already received an increase as recently as August last year. In fact, this is the third successive year in which the non-contributory old age and widows' pensions and unemployment assistance rates have been increased. It constitutes the fourth general increase in the non-contributory assistance schemes since the present Government assumed office in 1957. Since then, the rate of non-contributory old age pension will, when this Bill takes effect, have been increased by a total of 6/- a week from 24/- to 30/- ; the weekly rate of unemployment assistance payable to a man with a wife and four children, who resides in an urban area, will have been increased by a total of 19/6d. from 38/- to 57/6d; and the weekly rate of a widow's non-contributory pension payable to a widow with four children will have been increased by a total of 21/- from 36/6d. to 57/6d.

It may be instructive to look at the figures which I have just quoted in the light of the movement of the consumer price index during the same period, since the case is not infrequently made that social assistance and benefit rates tend to lag behind increases in the cost of living. What are the facts? In mid-February, 1957, the consumer price index stood at 135. The figure at mid-May, 1961, was 150, an increase of slightly over 11 per cent. The maximum rate of old age pension provided for in this Bill, however, represents an increase of 25 per cent. since 1957. The improvement is even more striking in the case of the other services covered by the Bill, owing partly to the more liberal approach which has been adopted in relation to child dependants in social welfare schemes generally, by the extension of payments to cover all qualified children and not merely the first two. The increases as at 1st August next, since 1957, of 19/6d. a week in the unemployment assistance payable to a man with a wife and four children, and of 21/- a week in the rate of non-contributory pension payable to a widow with four children, represent increases of 51 per cent. and almost 60 per cent. respectively, in that period of four years.

It is with much pleasure that I recommend this measure to the House.

We, on this side of the House, agree with the provisions in this Bill. The first criticism I should like to offer is that it has been so long delayed and has taken the Minister so long to introduce it. On earlier occasions, when indications had been given that it was the intention of the inter-Party Government to assist these classes for whom we cater under the social welfare code, it was made possible, by the introduction of speedy legislation, to implement the provisions governing increases almost immediately. I should like to know, when the Minister comes to reply, why it took this Government so long to introduce this Bill.

In the closing paragraphs of the Minister's speech there are references which are intended to convey that the people whom it is intended to assist under this measure are so much better off today than they were some years ago. I said that we agree with the provisions in this Bill. We agree with them because we think the classes for which it caters are necessitous classes and anything the State can do to come to their assistance to the fullest extent possible within our means is welcome. I am not in harmony with the note struck by the Minister in his closing paragraphs in which he compares the advances made in social welfare benefits—obviously, he regards these advances as very advantageous to the recipients—with the increase in the cost of living. There is no doubt that it is much easier for the State to provide greater benefits for fewer people.

We have it on record that in the past four years, the period the Minister saw fit to review, there has been unprecedented emigration. It is, of course, easier to look after the residual unemployed, those who did not leave the country. We know that many heads of families have emigrated, as have so many others, who could see no future in remaining in the country, and that has relieved the Department of Social Welfare of the obligation of providing unemployment benefits for so many more people. The escape valve was emigration. So many availed of that escape that it is much easier for the Department now to give increased benefits to those who come within the ambit of social welfare.

I am glad the Minister has seen fit on this occasion to close a loophole. He is taking steps to ensure in this measure that net losses in income will not occur in future when certain increases are given. We know the glaring injustice that occurred when the cost-of-living increases were given, particularly in the cases of wives of blind persons. A trifling cost-of-living increase put the recipient outside the category for qualification and the blind pension was withdrawn completely. The net loss in income was, of course, quite substantial, though it was the clear intention of the Government at the time to compensate for the cost-of-living increase. I am glad there is provision in this measure to meet such a situation in the future. It is regrettable that those who were affected in the past will not be able to seek redress under this measure.

The Minister said in his speech that this increase constitutes the fourth general increase in non-contributory assistance since the Government assumed office in 1957 and the rate of non-contributory old age pension will, when this Bill comes into operation, have been increased by a total of 6/- per week. That may be regarded in some circumstances as a reasonable increase. However, it is at the general situation we must look. We have the gratification of knowing that, in consequence of our accession to Government in 1948 and having discovered —we had, of course, been aware of the position—that the rate of old age pension then was 12/6d. a week, by the time we left office, it had increased to 24/- per week.

The House will recall a private motion, which was defeated by the Fianna Fáil Government in 1947, seeking a much smaller increase. We were informed at the time that the country could not afford that increase. Within a matter of months, and having removed certain penal taxation which had been imposed, the inter-Party Government found the first charge upon them was looking after the weakest sections of the community. In consequence of their action then, there was a steady improvement in the lot of the old age pensioners. They were removed from the necessity of appearing before the relieving officer and declaring themselves as paupers in order to secure 2/6d. in the old age pension. When we left office, the old age pension had increased from 12/6d. to 24/- per week.

The Minister appeared to take solace from the fact that the average increase in the cost-of-living figure, which he asserts is in the region of slightly over 11 per cent., can be compared with an increase of 25 per cent. in benefits. I can recall when the Minister sat on these benches. I can remember his being very critical of the method of compilation of the cost-of-living index figure and of the fact that, included in its compilation, were many items very far from being associated with the way of living of those who are charge on the State through the dium of social welfare benefits.

Is it not true that far from its being the fact that there was merely an increase of 11 per cent. in the cost of living index figure, in the period to which the Minister referred, the cost of the basic diet of these people, bread and butter, has increased, bread by 40 per cent. and butter by 30 per cent.? There has been this formidable increase in the cost of the basic diet of the people whom the Minister represents as having been so well looked after. It was the Minister who introduced the cost of living index figure into this debate. Deputies on all sides of the House know that bread and butter represent the normal staple diet of these classes and the fact is that the price of a loaf of bread today is 61/2d. more than it was before this golden era, according to the Minister, opened up and the lb. of butter is 10d. dearer. I am adverting to the necessaries of life.

Of course, the Minister when referring to the assistance given to the old age pensioner, did not mention that in the Budget under which that assistance was to be afforded, he imposed a tax on the old age pensioner's plug of tobacco, which did not await this late day of implementation. Old age pensioners have been paying the increased tax on their tobacco since the Budget but they had to wait until now for the benefits it is now proposed to give them.

It is with these criticisms that we welcome this Bill as we would welcome any Bill designed to ease the lot of these sections of our community who are dependent upon us for assistance. We consider that the evil was done when the food subsidies were withdrawn and the cost of living deliberately raised by Government action. This is merely a further chapter in the unfortunate tragedy consequent on the withdrawal of the food subsidies. The State has had to come repeatedly to the assistance of those people who were hit so hard when, in complete contradiction of election assurances that food subsidies would be maintained, the Government removed them in one fell below.

The small increases contained in the Bill and the improvements in social welfare legislation suggested by the Minister are certainly acceptable to the Labour Party. Without wrapping it up in fancy words, I want to say that as far as the proposed increases are concerned, they are not enough. The Minister and the members of the Government should recognise that they are not enough and that they could have given more, that the country could afford more. In the past couple of years, we have had statements from various Government Ministers as to how effective and successful the Five Year Plan has been, that we have ridden into an era of prosperity. The prosperity is translated into action as far as the old age pensioner is concerned by an increase of 1/6d. per week.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Social Welfare when asked in recent years why there was not a bigger increase in old age pensions said —and I think he believed it—that the country must produce more wealth before we can afford more in respect of either social welfare or social assistance. He very rightly told us that an extra 2/6d. to old age pensioners would mean that the people would have to contribute over £1 million more in taxation.

The Parliamentary Secretary should remember that due to the fact that many old age pensioners have been transferred to the contributory class, the 2/6d. now would cost only about £800,000. Therefore, when we think about an increase of 2/6d. to old age pensioners we should think in terms, not of over £1 million, but of £800,000 or £810,000. Many people inside and outside this House will say that the country cannot afford to give more. I think we can give more, not merely because the members of the Government, in an election year, are telling us we never had it so good but because, as I have said, the country can afford it.

The Minister has told us that in this Bill we are giving concessions to something like 220,000 persons to the extent of £600,000. To each of those 220,000 it will mean an increase of 1/4d. per week. Let us consider what the Government do in respect of other people. It reminds one of what some personality in the country said recently —the rich seem to be getting richer and the poor seem to be getting poorer. We are making concessions amounting to £1,200,000 in respect of persons in the upper income bracket in relation to income tax. The Budget gave them a present of £1,200,000 but to 220,000 persons who are dependent on old age pensions and various forms of assistance we give £600,000.

Let me return to what the Parliamentary Secretary and his Minister have been saying in recent years, namely, that they will get more when the country can afford it. The evidence is that rather than more being spent on social welfare and social assistance the amount is decreasing every year, despite statements to the effect that the country is becoming more prosperous. It may be in certain respects but let me give these interesting figures to show what the Minister for Social Welfare has done in respect of people who are dependent on the State and on social insurance funds for their weekly income.

Tax revenue has increased, since this Government came into power, over each of the years since 1957. In 1957-58, the Government found it possible to extract from the people £102.7 million. In 1958, tax revenue rose to £104.1 million; in 1959, it rose to £107.3 million; in 1960-61, it amounted to £114.9 million; and in 1961-62, it is estimated at £118.3 million. People would be entitled to argue that if tax revenue goes up, we should come to the assistance of people who cannot sometimes, as the Act says, provide for themselves, but, in 1957-58, when tax revenue stood at £102.7 million, we spent, 24.8 per cent. of that revenue on social welfare and social assistance. In 1958-59, when tax revenue was £104.1 million, the percentage spent on social welfare and social assistance fell to 24.4 per cent.; in 1959-60, when the Government succeed in extracting about £3.2 millions more from the people, the amount spent on social welfare and social assistance further decreased to 23.8 per cent. In 1960, when tax revenue showed an increase of £7.6 million over 1959 even less a percentage of the whole was spent on social welfare and social assistance—22.8 per cent. In the present year, according to the estimates of the Minister for Finance, tax revenue will amount to £118.3 million and again we see a decrease in the amount spent on social welfare and social assistance, which now stands at 22.3 per cent. as against 24.8 per cent. in the year 1957-58.

That is a very good reason why the Government should have given a little more than 1/6d. to old age pensioners and other categories described in the Bill. The State is evading its responsibility towards those people. Of course, the Parliamentary Secretary, when concluding the debate, will probably argue that expenditure is declining because less has to be provided for unemployment assistance by reason of the fact that the numbers of registered unemployed have decreased over these years.

There is another fact which must be taken into consideration when one thinks of social welfare and social assistance and that is the extra amount that is being demanded and taken in contributions from workers and employers. For that reason I say the State is evading responsibility that it formerly accepted. In 1960-61 the workers contributed £3.3 millions in social insurance; this year they are required to contribute £4.9 millions, an increase of 50 per cent. in one year. The Government are therefore placing an added burden in respect of social welfare directly on employees and employers while cutting down substantially themselves. Indeed, the Minister for Health who is also Minister for Social Welfare said last week, I think, that we could not afford to pay nurses any more. At least he seems to be consistent because it seems that he is also determined not to give the increases that I believe are rightly due to those who come under this Bill——

And it seems that he is not a ladies' man.

The Minister spoke of the cost of living index figure. We should get away from the idea that in present circumstances old age pensioners should be harnessed to the cost of living figures. If we are to tie them to the cost of living figures, the old age pensioners, the sick, the unemployed and the widows will never have what all of us say they should have. If we are to give increases merely in accordance with the cost of living figure, they will still be in receipt of weekly allowances which everybody agrees are inadequate. The Minister may talk about the cost of living figure but I wonder is he being serious when he applies it to the old age pensioners? The cost of living figure includes the price of practically every single commodity but we must remember that the main thing that the old age pensioner, the unemployed person, the sick person and the widower are concerned with is food.

The record of Fianna Fáil in respect of the price of food is not good. The Minister says the cost of living index figure, since the present Government assumed office, has increased by 11 points. That is correct but food items increased by 17 points. That gives an entirely different picture. Deputy O'Sullivan has described these increases in pence and shillings and there is no necessity for me to repeat them. The biggest item affecting the expenditure from the purse of any of the people catered for in this Bill is in respect of food and, to talk about the cost of living index figure which includes things with which they are not concerned and never will be concerned, is purely madness.

I believe that the Government could have afforded more. I am content to sit here and listen to the taunts of the Minister or the Parliamentary Secretary telling me how I did when I was Minister for Social Welfare or what some other Minister did, when reductions were made or about the meagre increases which were given. What I am concerned about is the position at present and, when one has regard to the increase in the cost of food over the last four years and to the increase in tax revenue collected by the Government, I think the argument can be sustained that 1/6d. is too little to offer to the old age pensioners at a time when the Government are boasting about the wind of change and about the new era of prosperity which we are entering.

It did not seem to me to be realistic that we should give a concession of £1,200,000 to income tax payers and to expect 220,000 people to be satisfied with the meagre £600,000. It seems to me to be the policy of the Government to endeavour to make the rich richer and the poor poorer. As another income tax concession we have the married man with £3,000 a year getting a present of over 2/- while the married man with £11 a week benefited under the income tax concessions by only 4½d. That seems to to be in keeping with the policy of the Minister for Health when he was Minister for Finance on one occasion.

I should like to refer to two or three of the other provisions in the Bill. The Minister spoke of substantial concessions in the means test for recipients of unemployment assistance. I do not know what he considers to be "substantial concessions" but the maximum that a single man may have if he is to receive unemployment assistance at present is £98 16s. and the benevolent Minister for Social Welfare now says: "We are now going to raise that to £100." Is he serious when he describes that as a "substantial concession?"

From £72.

In the case of the rural man the increase is from £72 6s. to £100. That is not going to mean a lot for any substantial number of people and I do not think it can be described as a "substantial concession." The Minister might well consider the type of people who are at present so badly hit and who have been so badly hit down through the years by this means test that they must undergo to qualify for unemployment assistance.

We can consider the fishermen, for example, and the person that I am sure the Parliamentary Secretary knows, the task worker, the worker the farmers of this country are seeking, the worker for whom they will not have to pay insurance, the man they will get to put a price on a field where turnips have to be weeded, the fellow who takes the job for a price on, as it is described in the country, "taskwork." The taskworker works for a number of weeks and under social welfare legislation—not under this particular piece of legislation—he will not qualify for unemployment assistance—at least a single man will not. If he works for six months for some miserable farmer, he will not qualify for unemployment assistance. The man who operates for five or six months as a fisherman and who, of course is not insured, if he earns—as he may well do in the salmon season which lasts roughly from April to September, six months — about £7 per week, will not be entitled to home assistance during the winter months. That is not a very good income but if he earns that amount on an average over six months, as far as I can gather, he will not get home assistance.

The Parliamentary Secretary and the Minister might well consider an easement of the unemployment assistance means test with a view to rectifying these matters which I have described. Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary can take this as a backhanded compliment. The Minister says there are not so many now in the country on unemployment assistance, not so many registered as unemployed, so that it would not constitute the same problem as when there was a greater number registered as unemployed, who were entitled to and had applied for unemployment assistance.

I do not know what to say about one proposal in the Bill, but I am sure the Parliamentary Secretary can find some amusement in it as well. If one commits an offence in respect of the means one discloses to obtain a qualification certificate, one is not to be fined £25; one is to be fined £50. I do not know whether that is a joke or not. The man who looks for unemployment assistance or the man who gives wrong information is surely not going to be able to pay a fine of £50. I do not know who brought this idea into the Department of Social Welfare but in recent years the accent seems to be on fraud in respect of social welfare and social welfare assistance. There is no necessity to terrorise people and they have been terrorised. I have met them and the Minister's officers know of such cases.

In my own constituency the officers carrying out their instructions—and I repeat carrying out their instructions— subjected people to searching inquiries as to where they worked, who employed them, how long they worked, could they be sacked, and so forth. To such an extent did this happen that some of them decided to withdraw their applications altogether because they got the idea into their heads—who put it there I will not say—that they were to be prosecuted and would end up in the district court. I do not think the people of this country should be terrified in this way. They were badgered and terrified. I have no particular officers in mind but these men were acting in accordance with the regulations and they were required to do it within the strict letter of the law.

I wonder does the Parliamentary Secretary or the Minister appreciate the suffering that they can impose on people with these investigations? Applications for unemployment benefit are investigated over a period of months. I do not think the Act provides for such long delay. The case of the man who applies in November is being investigated in January, February and March, and it may be decided five or six months afterwards. What is he supposed to live on? The local authorities are not very generous in dispensing home assistance, or any of the other moneys they have at their disposal. Therefore the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary should get it out of their heads that there is this colossal fraud going on, because to be fair to the Minister's officials, and especially to those concerned, in the vast majority of the cases it is found that there is not fraud, but in the suspicion of fraud there is an awful lot of suffering imposed on these people for three, four or five months.

This Bill also provides for the recovery of over-payment by deductions from the social welfare allowances, that is when a court order has been sought. I should like to bring to the Minister's notice the fact that in some cases there are errors of payment, justifiable errors, or excusable errors, where recipients get more than they should. If I am overpaid to the tune of £10 and I am told about it, but honestly believe that £10 was due to me, it is very difficult for me to pay it back. The Minister and his officials should show and I am sure they do, a great deal of tolerance where overpayment has not been due to any fraudulent act of the recipient. I would also urge on the Parliamentary Secretary that, in regard to the recovery of these overpayments, there should be a little more generosity in fixing the amount of the instalments. Recently I came across a case of a widow who had an allowance of 30/- a week. She was overpaid in respect of sickness benefit for her late husband. Some official from the Department went to her and suggested she might pay back 10/- or 15/- a week. The widow was afraid of her life that she might end up in court—she was not threatened— and agreed immediately to the payment of 10/- a week out of her meagre 30/- She should have been advised by the Department, by the Minister, or by the official who interviewed her.

I should like to congratulate the Minister on Section 15. It is a section which might have been introduced many years ago. It is the section which prevents a reduction in a pension by reason of income from another source which would be assessed as additional means. The Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary are to be congratulated on making that change, among others, in this Bill. As I say, naturally we do not oppose it. We welcome it for what it is but we believe, in view of the increase in tax revenue, that there should also have been a consequential increase for the old age pensioners, widows and those who are unemployed.

There are a few points on which I should like some elucidation when the Parliamentary Secretary or the Minister is replying. The Minister refers, on Page 6 of his speech, to the powers of deciding officers to determine whether a person is or is not in insurable employment. I have in mind a case in which it was decided that the person involved was not in insurable employment. When he inquired about it, an officer went to investigate the complaint. It was again decided that the person was not in insurable employment. As a matter of fact, people are really not aware of what their rights are at these inquiries and whether they can be represented or not.

This was a case where a man was employed for one day of the week and only for a time. Rightly or wrongly he felt at the time that he was not insurable and consequently no stamp was applied for a time. When it was brought to his notice his employer was prepared to stamp the card, if that would be accepted. It was decided that this man was not insurable. Unfortunately, not being insurable and not being able to obtain employment where he resided, the man had to leave the country. The only indication he had that he was not in insurable employment, was that he was employed with a farmer for the purpose of doing odd work such as hay making and so on for one or two days a week. When people have cause for complaint, they should be notified well ahead as to when the appeal will be held. Notice should be given to them beforehand. In some cases, they are told to turn up at 3 o'clock in the afternoon at one of the offices and that does not give them very much time.

The second point to which I want to refer is related to paragraph 10 of the Minister's speech :

The purpose of the remaining provisions is to remove obstacles and to strengthen and improve the law in relation to abuses and to the recovery of overpayments of pensions, assistance or benefit.

It would greatly assist everyone, the officials of the Department and the people concerned, if the limits within which people must keep to qualify for assistance or the payment of a non-contributory pension, were made perfectly clear. Very often, when people apply for such pensions, they are unaware of the way in which the Department operates the means test. Some people have money in the Post Office or in a bank, against a rainy day, and in the Post Office the rate of interest they can obtain is 2-?ths. A sum of £300 at the rate of 2-?ths. interest would give an income of something like £9 per year. But as I understand it, a sum of £300 is counted by the Department as bringing in much more than £9 per year.

If the maximum amount of money which the person may have to qualify for benefit were made clear, it would help the Parliamentary Secretary and his officials in regard to this matter which has been referred to as fraud. If people understood that they could not benefit under the social welfare code if they have a certain income, then knowing the position they would not so readily make these claims, and they would not seek benefits to which they knew they were not entitled. Generally, when people reach the age of 70 years, they think they are entitled to a non-contributory old age pension. They consider they have worked for it the same as everyone else. They certainly do not think that, because they have a few hundred pounds laid aside to meet their expenses at the end, they are debarred from receiving these benefits. Surely a notice setting out the limits could be displayed in post offices and elsewhere, as other notices are displayed, notifying people that these are the limits and that these are the amounts above which they cannot qualify.

I do not know if the recovery provision is applicable to all sections of the Bill now. I want the Parliamentary Secretary to tell me if it will apply to pensions paid on or after 1st August. I have a case in mind of a worker, an old man, who got a notification, when he had become entitled to a contributory pension, that a debt existed in regard to his wife who had pre-deceased him. When this woman sought her pension, it was found that she was entitled to it. Her husband was working in agricultural employment and the officer investigating the case found she was entitled to a pension and she was awarded a pension. Eight years afterwards, the man changed his employment and went to work in a quarry for the local authority. The lady's pension then ceased. That was a year before she died. After her death, the State claimed that a debt was due. The man had no assets and no means whatsoever. He is not in good health—as a matter of fact, he is seriously afflicted —and in any case he has no means.

I want to know from the Parliamentary Secretary, will this section be used for the recovery of such payments, because I think it would be an undue and a very harsh decision if such power were to be taken at this stage. I would not condone in any way any such thing as getting money from the State, if a person is not entitled to it. These tests are carried out locally. I may say they are very efficient and, indeed, some people would say they are very ruthless. To grant a pension and then at a later stage to say that a person was not entitled to it puts those who are left when the recipient has died in the position of finding themselves faced with a bill with which they never thought they would be faced. It is very easy to spend 8/-, 9/- or 10/- a week, or whatever it may be, but it is very difficult to find that amount if a person is faced with a demand for the recovery of a large sum of money. I want the Parliamentary Secretary to say whether this section in regard to recovery covers all the sections and all the pensions which the Department administers. Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary would give me some information on that.

I have not had time to prepare what I want to say. Things are happening quickly here. I want to discuss the alleged increase which persons in receipt of social benefit will receive. In the Budget statement, we were told that adults will receive an extra ?d. and that after the second child, the allowance will be increased by 1/-. The average family on assistance at present receives as much as 10/- or 15/- a week from home assistance. Families of a husband, wife and five children, we are told, will gain as much as 11/- as a result of the Budget. The fact remains that those people receive anything from 10/- or 15/- a week in home assistance, and always have.

The people who will be in receipt of those additions on 1st August will have the amount which they receive under the Budget deducted from the home assistance payment, which means in the case of most of them that they will receive no benefit at all. Any person who receives an increase under the contributory scheme and who was in receipt of home assistance from the home assistance officers had, in fact, the increase deducted from his home assistance, even if he only benefited by 2/6d. Where a person was in receipt of 5/- home assistance, that 2/6d. was deducted. All these unfortunate people were to be well off as a result of the Budget but the fact remains that the various home assistance officers throughout the country will deduct in most cases the amount these people will receive on 1st August. That means they will be no better off.

The Minister can give an assurance that that will not be the case and that he will use his good offices, as he did before, and ask that that should not be done. Will he ask the home assistance authorities not to take this increase from these people's home assistance? If he does not give that assurance, let me tell the Parliamentary Secretary that the vast majority of these people will gain nothing.

Owing to the various increases in the cost of living, rents, bus fares and electricity, the argument has been used that the employee was entitled to an increase in wages. With the present demands for increased wages, we are going to have a further increase in all those commodities because the Parliamentary Secretary must admit that where there are increases in wages, those increases can be met only by increased costs. Therefore, those unfortunate people whom it is alleged will receive an increase on 1st August and who may have the increase deducted from their home assistance will, in fact, be no better off but will have to face up to the increases which are certain to come about as a result of the demand for higher wages.

Not only will many of those people not be any better off but in many cases as a result of increases to come in the cost of living, they will be worse off. Whether the Minister likes it or not, that is exactly the position. That will be the position after 1st August.

Once again I am protesting against the Minister's policy of cutting people off assistance on the ground that they are not genuinely seeking work when, in fact, work, in the case of males anyway, is unobtainable in Dublin. I hold that it is part and parcel of Government policy to press these people so that they will find it more convenient to take the boat. It seems to me that the great economic successes and the buoyancy of the revenue about which the Government talk arise largely from the fact that very large numbers leave the country annually and so the State is saved the job of having to pay them home assistance, whilst at the same time it gets back money in the form of emigrants' remittances. It seems the policy to force people out of the country. I do not see why people should be denied assistance on the ground that they are not genuinely seeking work when, in fact, they regularly apply to the labour exchange which is the proper place where they ought to be offered employment. If they are not offered employment at the labour exchange, there are no grounds upon which they should be cut off.

Much of the Government's claim is an artificial claim because by forcing people out of the country, they have saved money in relation to the payment of social benefits. It is claimed that those people will benefit from the Budget. In fact, when the moneys they receive from social benefits are deducted, they will not have benefited at all.

The Deputy has already said that.

I do not propose to say anymore.

The Deputy has already said it three times.

I am saying it again.

The Deputy would not be in order in saying it again.

I am primarily concerned with those people. They are the people with whom I deal morning, noon and night. I know their cases. If it hurts somebody that is what I want to do. I want to hurt all I can and that is what I am here for.

I want to raise one matter. It is relative to a point I raised here on 8th March, 1960. It is what appears to be an injustice existing in the transfer of a farm to a son or daughter. In that case, the farmer may get the pension but where the transfer is to a niece or nephew who lives and works on the farm, the transfer is not acceptable for assessment under the pensions code. The Parliamentary Secretary at the time promised he would look into that.

The Minister, to conclude.

It would depend upon the date upon which the transfer was made. If it is done sufficiently long before the claimant attains the age of 70 years, the transfer may be accepted; if it is done in the way in which it might be done in respect of a son or daughter, it is not. After all, the niece or nephew might quite readily buy the farm. There is not any filial obligation on the part of a person to give his property to a niece or nephew.

But a niece or nephew who works and lives on the holding.

We do not know that.

And who looks after the old people.

That is the position which has been established for a long time. Having regard to the liberal manner in which the concessions have been extended, I think it would not be fair to the ordinary taxpayer to concede the same right in respect of a niece or nephew.

There are probably not 200 in the whole country.

I understand that Deputy O'Sullivan—I am sorry I had to leave the House; I was not able to remain while he was speaking— enquired how it was that the proposals which had been announced in the Budget were not coming into operation until 1st August. The explanation is simple. First of all, the Budget appears in April or sometimes in May. Then there are certain administrative arrangements which have to be made in order to bring these proposals into operation. The earliest possible date on which they can be brought into operation is three or four months after the date upon which they are announced. It has been the custom always, when increases in benefits are announced in the Budget, to bring them in on 1st August because experience has shown that that is the earliest possible practical date.

I understand Deputy Jones complained that people do not know how the means test is operated or what is the limit of the means they must have to qualify. Let me say this: I did not hear Deputy Jones and I am reading a note as it was recorded for me. People are not expected to keep within the limit of the means that would entitle them to qualify for unemployment assistance. On the contrary, they are expected to exceed those means by as much as lies within their power to do so. They are expected to work as hard as they can and to improve their position as much as they can.

Unfortunately the situation, I am afraid, has developed in some parts of the country that people refuse to better themselves, refuse even to avail of the opportunities offered to them to better themselves lest they might lose unemployment assistance, the free-and-easy money which they have been getting for years. I think all that is a regrettable development. I would hope that all sides of the House would discourage it to the utmost extent possible.

We tax people who have to work hard in order to provide these moneys. We tax them on the assumption that the people who receive them have done their utmost to maintain themselves and improve their position. It would be grossly unfair to the community as a whole if we were to allow the idea to develop that people receive these moneys as of right—they receive them as a grace—and that, for that reason, they are entitled to refuse to pull their weight within the community and, where possible, to better their position.

With regard to the complaint that persons do not know how the means test is operated, the position is that all officers of the Department have adequate supplies of explanatory leaflets, which may be had for the asking. These give full information as to the scope, means limit, rates of benefit, qualifying conditions, and so on, of each scheme. Therefore, anybody can get the information which Deputy Jones spoke about, on request.

I am surprised to hear from Deputy Sherwin that any man who really wants a job in the City of Dublin at this moment need be without one.

Where is the work? Tell us where it is.

He may not get the sort of job he might like—the nice, soft cushy job. However, I know a great many people who have been complaining, particularly in the building industry, of shortage of labour. I know that Deputy Sherwin is a very soft-hearted man but he is not as simple, surely, as to wish us to believe that there are able-bodied men anxious to work walking the streets of Dublin today, with a good character—that is one essential—who cannot get a job. Another thing is that it is not up to the Labour Exchange to provide a man with a job. The purpose of the Labour Exchange is primarily to put people who are looking for employment in touch with likely employers.

Do the employers not send to the Labour Exchange?

Some of them do.

Most of them do.

Most of them may do but, of course, they do not have to take everybody who is sent to them from the Labour Exchange. They are entitled to judge whether the person sent is genuinely seeking work and whether, if they give him a job, he will be worth the money he expects to get. It is well known that in the City of Dublin there is in certain occupations, a scarcity of labour. I know the Deputy——

Where are the jobs please? Tell me now. I will be very thankful and grateful to the Minister.

Will the Deputy allow the Minister——

The Minister is trying to put something over.

Of course I am. I am just trying to get this over to the Deputy.

Give me the information.

I do not believe Deputy Sherwin is as green as he pretends to be. I do not believe he takes all these stories for gospel.

I have written to the Office of Public Works umpteen times. I cannot get a job there anywhere.

The amount of work at the disposal of the Office of Public Works is limited. The Office of Public Works does not exist to provide jobs for every client of Deputy Sherwin.

It was reserved, one time, for Cavan men.

My experience of most Cavan men is that they are well worth employing.

I want the Minister to tell me where there is one job. I shall be delighted to hear of it. That calls his statement now.

I shall not do the Deputy's job for him. If he thinks it is his job to find work for every fellow who comes to him, that is all right: let the Deputy go and do it.

I got only two jobs in my life and they were as watchmen. They were cripples. That is the truth. They were from the Corporation.

If Deputy Sherwin has concluded, he might allow the Minister to conclude.

I am sorry we got into this dialogue. There is no use in the Deputy's coming here asking the Minister to do his work as a member of a Home Assistance Authority. He is a member, I think, of the Dublin Corporation which has some representation upon the home assistance authority and some control over the operations of the home assistance authority through the Manager. There is no use in expecting the Minister to start ordering the local authority about.

We have no power. The Minister says we have. We have none.

If I were to start to direct the Dublin Corporation as to how it should spend the ratepayers' money, the Evening Mail, the Evening Press and the Evening Herald would be filled with letters of protest from indignant ratepayers. I am not a member of the Dublin Corporation. It is a very honourable position, but it is one which I have never sought. However, if I did seek it, I would not come here and ask the Minister for Social Welfare to do my job. I would do it through the City Manager.

The Minister made the Act. It is in the Act that we have no power.

Yes, the Minister made the Act.

You have considerable power. If you want to increase home assistance, so far as I know, all you have to do is to direct the City Manager to increase the rates of home assistance but, at the same time, you must provide the money. You cannot have it both ways. That is where Deputy Sherwin refuses to face up to the situation.

I made a statement of fact.

Under the Social Welfare Act, 1952, the home assistance authority is only entitled to take into consideration such other sources of income under the social assistance code as may be an excess of 10/-. Outside that, of course, we have no control. There is that statutory bar so far as home assistance authorities are concerned. I will say this, and it is as far as I should go, that I am sure that the Oireachtas does not intend, when it asks the taxpayers to provide increased benefits for social welfare beneficiaries, that all that benefit will be utilised to relieve the ratepayers within any home assistance authority district of their proper responsibilities for the care of those in need. I am sure Deputy Sherwin will now be able to do his duty to these people inside the Dublin Corporation.

No. They will not get any money before 1st August. I made that statement before.

I do not think there is any other matter of moment that I need reply to on the Second Stage of this Bill. Most of the points before me are really matters of administration which might more properly be discussed on the Estimate for the Office of the Minister for Social Welfare. Some other points might perhaps arise for discussion on the Committee Stage.

Question put and agreed to.
Committee Stage ordered for Tuesday, 27th June, 1961.
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