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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 6 Dec 1961

Vol. 192 No. 8

Committee on Finance. - Vote 43—Agriculture (Resumed).

I merely want to refer to item 15, An Foras Talúntais, where an extra £50,000 is shown as being the additional sum required. I should like to ask the Minister if in fact that £50,000 has not already been completely spent by An Foras Talúntais and if the original Estimate, given here as £450,000, is correct. Is it not a fact that An Foras Talúntais asked for almost £200,000 more? When An Foras Talúntais, or the Agricultural Institute, if you prefer to call it that, was originally set up, it was financed from American funds. A solemn guarantee was given by the Government that any money necessary for running the Agricultural Institute would be provided. My information is that that guarantee has not been honoured. As a matter of fact, not alone have the Institute been unable to carry out necessary schemes which it felt should be carried out, but it has now reached the stage where it is finding it very difficult to pay the extremely low wages paid to the people who work on its farms throughout the country.

On one farm, Johnstown Castle, Wexford, arrangements have been made for the determination of the employment of approximately 15 working men. One of the main reasons given for this is that the Institute has not got the money to continue them in employment. The case has been made publicly by the representatives of the Institute that that is so. The trade union I have the honour to represent had a Labour Court case against the Institute some time ago. During the hearing of that case the officials representing the Institute said the main reason they were unable to pay the higher wages our members were asking was that they had not got the money.

If the Agricultural Institute is to carry out the task for which it was set up and if it is to prepare our farmers for entry into the fierce competition of the Common Market, if we get in, then it is a scandal that the Government are not providing it with the necessary funds. It is true that, from the money provided from an American source, funds were made available by the Institute for the purchase of farms throughout the country. It is still working on that. Originally it had a certain amount of income from invested capital, but it is eating into that because of the fact that it has been getting less than its running costs from the Government for some time past.

The Government will have to treat this matter very seriously. The Institute is being used as an umbrella by the Government in order to meet criticism that they are not preparing the farmers for entry into the Common Market. There is no use in doing that when the umbrella is full of holes, as I believe it is, and cannot be repaired because the money is not available. When we are dealing with sums like the £10,300,000 in this Estimate, £50,000 is a very small sum and £450,000, the sum it has got already, is a relatively small sum, if the Institute is to be expected to do a good job. The previous speaker referred to the training and employment of our future instructors. If any progress is to be made, the necessary moneys must be made available. In conclusion, I would ask the Minister to let the House know if it is a fact that the Institute is not getting the money it requires to carry on its ordinary day-to-day business.

In opening the debate for this side of the House, Deputy Dillon described the Minister's statement as a dismal fiasco. Bearing in mind the circumstances of the farming community throughout the country at present, I would accept that description as a fair one. I think there is one bright spot, and it is only right and proper that we should acknowledge it. Unlike my friend, Deputy T. O'Donnell, I think that bright spot is the present satisfactory rate of progress being made in the eradication of boving tuberculosis. I think that fact should be acknowledged and it is only right that a tribute should be paid to the Minister and the officials of his Department who are responsible for this progress which is, in part, due to the help and co-operation which the county committees of agriculture have given in an effort to further this very important work.

Speaking recently, the Minister generalised in criticising the lack of interest displayed by county committees of agriculture. That criticism was very much resented by committees who had worked very hard to bring about the desirable position in which we now find ourselves. We are making very rapid progress at the present time. The Minister should accordingly endeavour to seek co-operation in counties where committees of agriculture are not doing their bit because this is one of the most urgent and important jobs that remains to be done in agriculture in this country.

When we turn to the sub-head dealing with the Pigs and Bacon Commission, I am sorry I do not find the picture quite so bright. I feel there is widespread dissatisfaction with the Pigs and Bacon Commission and I think the Minister for Agriculture should tell us what, in fact, the Commission have been doing over the years in which they have been in existence. The present position on the British market is that the Danes are getting 260/- per cwt. for their pigs, the British are getting 245/-, the Dutch 236/-, the Poles 236/-, the Hungarians 231/-, Northern Ireland 230/-, the Swedes 221/- and the Irish 215/-. That does not indicate much progress on the part of the Pigs and Bacon Commission.

The Danes, for Grade B bacon, get 235/-, the Dutch get 217/- and the English Grade B bacon is paid for at the rate of 220/- a cwt. That gives us a fairly vivid picture of our position in relation to other countries supplying the British market. It means we are getting 45/- less per pig than the Danes and 21/- per pig less than the Dutch. Furthermore, it indicates the position in which we will find ourselves when we enter the Common Market. My feeling is that, as a result of progeny testing in this country, we have not got the raw material and that we will have to go outside, probably to Sweden, if we are to get the type of pig which will produce bacon comparable to that produced by the Danes and the Dutch.

I shall now pass to the losses on the disposal of wheat. We are asked here for £900,000 to meet losses on the disposal of wheat. It is fair to say that, if the Minister were to gather the results of tests carried out on samples of wheat taken in America, in Sweden, and in England and by the Institute here, he will find that these losses could be reduced by something in the region of £600,000, if he accepts that a much higher percentage of Irish wheat could be included in the grist. There is nothing we can do about this loss at the present time; we must accept it and pay for it, but I think that when the Minister comes in here for this extra money he should be able to tell us he will institute effective measures to ensure in future that this sort of situation will not arise and that the position will not be allowed to continue in which the millers are both judge and jury in their own cause and in the definition of millability.

Lastly, I should like to refer to the Farm Building Scheme. That scheme is making very good progress at the moment but there is one matter I should like to mention in respect to it. The people who are carrying out this scheme, the farm building inspectors, have been very unfairly discriminated against in the matter of salary. If we are to get the progress we hope for, the Minister should have their position reviewed. They have been unfairly treated and we are unlikely to get the co-operation we should, unless we remedy their position. In this respect, excellent work is being done where there is co-operation between the present construction instructors employed by the county vocational education committees and this scheme but I think there is room for the employment by the vocational committees of more of these instructors. There is room also for more co-operation between the vocational committees and the county committees of agriculture.

In considering this Supplementary Estimate there are several items which we need to discuss. The most important, to my mind, is that referring to losses in the disposal of wheat. Are those losses to continue? Will the Department of Agriculture bring forward any scheme by which the growing of wheat by conacre and by foreign ranchers will be ended in this country? The man growing 600 or 700 acres of wheat can afford to sell each barrel at a low profit. That is no use to the ordinary tillage farmer, but that is the condition to which wheat growing has been reduced here. Ordinary tillage farmers have been driven away from wheat growing, a business which has now become a competition between the ranchers. It is high time the Department of Agriculture got down to preparing some feasible scheme under which wheat growing can be set out in contract to the ordinary small tillage farmer so that this ranching system will be ended.

Unfortunately most of the items in this Supplementary Estimate have been overshadowed by our position in the British market in relation to our butter export. In this matter we are dealing with an unscrupulous enemy and I make no bones about stating that. On any occasion that they find softness anywhere they are very apt to drive their wedge in and, unfortunately, in 1956 they found that softness here. Without any word of protest, we had on exports of sugar and sugar products from this country, an imposition amounting to £16 a ton. I endeavoured to find the figures paid in that respect last year. I could not find them but I am sure close to £1,000,000 was paid to Britain, between levy and duties on sugar alone. That was done through downright neglect on the part of the Government responsible at that time.

The Leader of the Opposition said at Column 1411, Volume 183 of the Dáil Debates of 12th July, 1960:

. . . I understand that goods containing Irish sugar are being subjected to a very formidable levy, the proceeds of which are devoted to the subsidisation of goods of similar quality containing sugar derived from Crown Colonies of the British Crown. I am told, I think, by some of the Minister's colleagues, that when Deputy Norton was Minister for Industry and Commerce, this matter arose and that he did not consider it desirable to press the interpretation of Article V which would give us the right to claim exemption from that levy.

I do not know what the position is in regard to that. I have no recollection of hearing the matter discussed when I was a member of the inter-Party Government, although it could have happened and passed out of my memory but I do not remember it and I have not discussed the matter with Deputy Norton. Whatever attitude was taken up, I should like to be told now because frankly I confess that as I see it now, it appears that that Article is wide enough and comprehensive enough to cover the present procedure under which I believe that goods which are the growth, produce or manufacture of Ireland are being put at a disadvantage in relation to goods of that class from other sources enjoying preferential treatment.

On a point of order, is it in order for the Deputy to discuss a levy on sugar which is not mentioned in the Supplementary Estimate?

I understand the Deputy's remarks are related to the Estimate.

The Deputy's remarks are related to the further step taken by Britain in regard to our butter and I am saying that five years ago Britain made the first move and, through the incompetence of the Government of the day and their technical advisers, was allowed happily to continue to collect each year to the detriment of our farmers. We had an example here today from both Deputy Murphy and Deputy S. Collins of what has happened—protests because the extra acreage of beet could not be given.

The Deputy is drawing the long bow a bit now.

The only reason the extra acerage of beet could not be given was that there is a levy against us in the export market of £16 a ton on all sugar exported.

Complete rubbish.

That is a fact and I am suggesting to this Government that it is time they got a move on to remedy that. I have here the trade statistics from January to August, 1961. They show that while we exported to Britain from January to August of this year £70,451,000 worth of produce, we imported from them £78,914,000. That means we bought from Britain £9,000,000 more than she took from us. That is the position from which we should operate. If Britain can put a tariff or a duty on the produce of our farmers, I do not see why we cannot collect that money for the farmers by a tariff on the £79,000,000 worth of goods Britain is importing here.

You would be hurting all your friends then.

That is the only way to deal with the situation. According to this amazing table of imports, we imported agricultural tractors from Britain to the extent of £1,421,000 and £6,407,000 worth of motor cars. I am sure Continental countries would be only too glad, in bringing into this country agricultural machinery and other items, to get the same terms as Britain enjoys. I see no reason why Britain should be allowed to get away with that. While Britain is imposing penal duties and penal tariffs on the produce of our farmers who have to use tractors, these tractors and British machinery generally are coming in here with practically no duty on them. I found the extraordinary position that certain sugar products were being imported from Britain free of duty, while, at the same time, she was putting a levy on our sugar going out.

I suggest to the Minister that this whole matter must be reviewed. The time has gone for turning the other cheek as far as John Bull is concerned, who never understood anything but force. Now that we are preparing for entry into the Common Market, it is about time these matters were straightened out definitely, once and for all.

Either we have an agreement or we have not. There are two sides to every agreement. If Britain breaks one end of it, we are entitled to break the other. Soft methods never got anywhere as far as those people are concerned. One would think she would hesitate to adopt the attitude she has adopted in this connection.

In regard to Deputy O'Donnell's remarks about agricultural instructors leaving the country I would point out that, particularly in the South, we have a very grave scarcity of horticultural instructors to-day. As a matter of fact, they cannot be had. One would think that, with the opening here for them now in regard to the production of vegetables and soft foods, some attempt would be made to get people trained in that particular line.

We have the unfortunate position that a very considerable number of temporary instructors are employed in Cork. As Chairman of the Cork County Committee of Agriculture, I feel very hesitant about appointing 22 permanent instructors in a county while I know that side by side with that we shall have to appoint at least ten to fifteen more horticultural instructors. I am of the opinion that we could let some of the ordinary agricultural instructors go and replace them by horticultural instructors. That is our reason for complaining in that connection.

I want to deal with a statement by Deputy McQuillan about the attitude adopted towards the Irish Sugar Company's new venture in regard to vegetables and so on. We in the South are very hopeful as far as that is concerned. We see in this step something that will not alone give employment to our small farmers but be a means of keeping infinitely more people on our land. The work is going ahead very happily up to the moment. We hope, by judicious investment, to take that matter out of the realm wherein there will be any curtailment of the sale of produce in this country. I think we shall be in a position to deal with the British-based teams that are endeavouring to curtail our movements in that connection. I trust we shall be able to deal effectively with them very quickly.

As far as the Estimate generally is concerned, I am glad to see that more money is required for farm buildings and for lime. It shows that our farmers are going ahead. The more money I see for grants in that direction the more I believe that our agricultural community are going ahead and making satisfactory progress. I should like also to congratulate the Minister on being prepared to find the cash for these grants. This matter is now brought to a head. I regret sincerely that my suggestions here some months ago, in dealing with the sugar question, were rejected. Now, we have had a second wallop which concerns butter. We have proof, in this second wallop, that there is very little use in talking softly to those people. There is only one way to deal with them.

I have always had a very deep-rooted objection to a series of large Supplementary Estimates during the course of the year. It seems extraordinary that estimation in the Department to cover the subsequent period of this year could be so much out. It does, however, give a very welcome opportunity of analysing some of the very serious ills in our agricultural economy.

My colleague, Deputy Clinton, dealt with a problem the Minister will have to face as quickly as possible. There was a deep-seated responsibility on his Department to give us the result of the pig progeny testing and to give the Irish farmer direction as to the line of production in which he should engage to ensure a reasonable grading of his pigs. I shall not say much about the Pigs and Bacon Commission because the less said about them the better. Their sorry history is consolidated by more inefficiency. It is time the Minister realised the position, particularly when he is dealing with the pig producer in the area I have the honour to represent, the very large pig producer in Ballyvourney back into the Berehaven peninsula area. It is of vital importance to that producer to know the particular type of pig that is best suited to his production and that will give him the best return.

The Minister should make known to farmers the effective result of the pig progeny testing scheme. He should let them know whether the time has come for us to get out of the production of the pork pig and to get into the production of a different type of pig. I can assure him that, with rising costs of ration and delivery, it has become a vital economic factor for any pig producer in my area to have his pigs properly graded. Whatever bit of potential profit is in them is wiped out if the grading goes wrong.

I have heard it suggested that we should not quibble about paying a vast sum of money for the loss on wheat. It is time this country knew the appalling mess that was made of the disposal of that wheat. It is time we got an explanation as to why non-millable wheat was offered, in job lots of six tons, to the Irish farmer at £22 or £23 a ton, and afterwards the ports were opened and it was disposed of at £16 10s. a ton to our competitors. There is no doubt in my mind that the loss suffered thereon was grossly aggravated by that fact. The convenience of the miller was suited and he was allowed to export it in bulk.

It is very difficult to ask the Irish farmer, particularly the small, hardworking, industrious mixed farmer in an area like West Cork, to have patience with the Department of Agriculture when it is responsible for such extraordinary stupidity. We, in West Cork, know that the millers are a cartel the Government do not like to interfere with, and all their squeals and aches are met by the money gift, by way of subsidy or appropriation-in-aid to cover loss, but there is damned little sympathy in the Government for the unfortunate pig producers in the fastnesses of Ballyvourney, Rathnaree or back in the Beara peninsula, who are not only carrying the Rolls Royces of the millers on their backs but also the profits of the distributors, and if anything goes wrong with the profits on their pigs or should any unfortunate mishap occur in their economy, they must take the brunt of it without sympathy or grant-in-aid.

Deputy Corry was quite right when he said there has been gross mishandling of the butter situation. I was interested at Question Time when the Minister was pressed by the Leader of Fine Gael as to whether or not he had made representations about the fact that there was a formal breach of the Trade Agreement as well as a breach of the spirit, because it is time the Irish people realised what is involved in this action of the British Government whereby they give to our competitors quotas commensurate with their import quantities into England and ask the Irish people to accept grossly deflated quotas and, as a consequence of the Department not accepting that, have brought down this bludgeon blow on Irish butter.

To my mind, the officials and the Minister have been blind to the fact that this problem has been building up over a number of years in a most serious way. I was appalled recently to find that the Minister who had a very large appropriation for the purpose of market exploration had used practically none of it and that we have no practically-conceived policy yet as to how we can readily profitably and properly dispose of our milk surplus in some fashion other than as butter. It has become apparent over the years that we are over-producing butter, as such. What will the Minister do to face the problem that will inevitably arise unless something is done about increasing the cold storage for what has to be held in stock?

I have no doubt that the time has come when the Minister and his Department must get down to rational planning of our agricultural economy; no doubt that it needs very careful consideration to get that flexibility of policy that will enable Irish farmers to gear themselves to the type of production for which they are best suited. Instead of having to give large sums of money to make up for the loss sustained by the poor, starving millers, it is time we faced the real problem besetting the whole foundation of our stock production, the problem of getting down the prices of all the offals that go to make the various rations essential to primary producers here. It is time that the Minister's power was directed towards making available in a proper manner, at far more reasonable prices, basic rations to the primary producers instead of allowing the millers to get away with murder. I have no doubt that, as long as they remain the arbiter of the standard of acceptability of grain, we are completely in their hands. If the Minister brought the leaders of that industry into his office and said to them: "There is the wheat that you tell me is unmillable; I am telling you to mill it," I am satisfied he would have got the same reaction as Deputy Dillon got when he was Minister and we would not have any artificial diseases arising in our wheat to give them another lever to reject wheat on the basis of its not being suitable to mill for flour.

There is a great amount of ineptitude in the whole approach of the Department to the present inherent difficulty in our economy. While Deputy Corry may try to bring in a sidelight on sugar, I know that the present problem arises because we have allowed our agricultural economy to drift in a direction that should have been altered years ago so that we would not be now facing the task of having to bargain or barter or make some kind of compromise with the British on the problem of our butter exports. We have been told here for years that we have to subsidise our butter to feed the British people, while we make our own people pay what has been fixed as the economic price. To me, that was always a cockeyed scheme. It seems far more rational to me that if any profit or subsidy is to accumulate from butter production for the benefit of the consumers, it would be better that Irish consumers should reap the benefit and enjoy the nutritious quality of our own butter rather than pay somebody else to eat it for us. It is a problem that is perenially with us and yet the Department has done nothing about it but allowed it to grow in its complexities and difficulties over the years.

There are many facets of this Estimate where there is a welcome improvement. I want to see the use of lime and fertilisers on our land expanded; I want to see the farming community with better housing for stock and storage for grain, and it is good to see that money is to be spent on a more lavish scale in that way, but but one must come back to the fundamental principle, that if our economy is to depend on animal husbandry and if it is to be mainly an economy of pigs, cattle and poultry, we must face the problem of finding not only stable but profitable markets for it. The Minister knows that difficulties have arisen in every section of our economy, to my mind, because of lack of proper market research facilities and lack of efforts by the Department to guide and direct it in the likely way of progress and profit. If there had been any rational approach to the problem, we would not have the mounting difficulty of turkey prices, the falling off in fowl, the immense difficulty in pig production and the continuing difficulties that exist in the cattle trade.

The Minister comes in to seek £10 million odd for his Department. Agriculture is the most important facet of our economy. It is intrinsically and basically the real foundation of our economy. Yet, the Minister cannot give us any reasoned approach as to what the alternative will be to over-production in milk, what the nature and type of our improved bacon trade will be, what type of pig will be best suited for that trade. He does not give us any explanation as to how he can sit quietly and allow our competitors to benefit to the extent of 30/-, 35/- or 40/- per cwt. in the differential price for bacon. He cannot give us any reasonable prognosis of what the future will be in any branch of agriculture.

There is talk as to what may happen when we enter the Common Market. Perhaps I strike a realistic note when I say now is the time to gear our economy if we have to face that competition. Now is the time for the Department of Agriculture to advise the primary producer what are the lines upon which his economy should be geared to make the best use of the Common Market, either as full or associate members. Now is the time to evaluate the competition that will have to be met. Now is the time to plan and direct the primary producer along the paths which hold out the best hope of ultimate success. Now is the time for the Minister, instead of coming in here talking about wheat losses, to face up to the fact that we cannot afford to over-produce wheat. The land of this country is more suited to the coarser types of grain which can be walked off the land in the bellies of our stock. Now is the time to get the Irish farmer to realise the integral facets of his economy that must be put right before he can become a competitor in the Common Market.

I do not intend to delay the House by traversing the entire field of our agricultural economy. I merely want to direct the Minister's attention to matters of urgent importance where the pig producer in my area is concerned. The time has come, if the research and effective investigation of his Department is a reality, to let us know the type of pig to which we should switch, the type of pig likely to grade best and give the best profit to the producer. Instead of panic export of unmillable wheat, the Minister should insist that the millers give him some return by way of production of offal or quality feed which will inure to the benefit of our animal husbandry rather than cast it to the winds at completely uneconomic prices for the benefit of our competitors.

If I got warmed up on the subject of the ineptitude of the Department of Agriculture, I could keep the House here all night and all tomorrow. The Minister is charged with the biggest task and the most difficult task any Minister could have. He is dealing with that particular facet of our economy which will be the real life-line of the country in a Common Market situation. It is a task to which all his energies and efforts will have to be applied if he intends to get Irish agriculture geared in the right direction to reap the best possible harvest. No matter what industrial-minded people may think, many of our tariff-protected industries will collapse when we enter the Common Market. It will be up to the Minister to continue to keep this country afloat and ultimately put it into a state of economic soundness.

I come from the constituency of Sligo-Leitrim where the holdings are small and uneconomic. A great many farmers find it very difficult to eke out a living. Electioneering on two occasions this year, in February and again in September, I was very proud of the people because of the effort they were making to hold on to these uneconomic holdings. I have made representations on a few occasions to the Land Commission. They are very slow to proceed with the division of a farm which might be of great benefit to two, three, or four adjoining smallholders.

I fear the division of land would not be relevant on this Estimate.

I was merely pointing out the position of the small farmer in my constituency. If that land were divided more quickly, these holdings could be made economic.

The division of land is a matter for the Land Commission.

With regard to forestry, trees are planted in some cases right up to the door of an uneconomic holder. No matter what representations are made, the Forestry Division insist on planting.

Perhaps the Deputy would come now to Agriculture.

I shall raise the matter on another occasion. If the Minister could give cheaper manures to the small farmers in Leitrim and Sligo, many of them would make greater progress in farming. They cannot pay the present high price of fertilisers. If they had cheaper manures, they could make the land more productive. They would get a bigger cheque from the creameries and their economy generally would be improved.

The last evening I was here, I heard a Deputy say that money given under any scheme except the L.A.W. Act was criticised by us. I can assure the House no money under any scheme is being spent in my constituency. No matter what representations are made, we can get no drainage work done. I appeal to the Minister to expedite the inspection of schemes for which application has been made so that drainage work will be done.

That is not a matter for the Minister for Agriculture. The Deputy should relate his remarks to the Estimate.

These farms would be more productive, if drainage works were carried out.

Drainage is the responsibility of another Minister.

With regard to production, when we have a good year, there should be a guaranteed price for farmers who have a surplus. What really influenced farmers not to go into production in a big way was the fact that, when they did so, got a good year and had a surplus of produce on their hands, it was left in the haggard and was not worth bringing to town. If the farmers of Sligo-Leitrim were sure of a price for whatever produce they had after feeding their stock, they would be glad to co-operate with the Minister and the community. The cost of living would not be running so high. It is costly to produce a crop on these small holdings. The net result is that if there is a surplus, it has to go to loss. That is particularly the case in respect of the potato crop as we have known on a few occasions.

Much money has been spent on the Land Project. I have seen huge projects carried out under the scheme. I always thought that if the same amount of money were spent on land starved for manure, it would be far more in the interest of the country in general. Bringing heavy machinery into a mountainous part of the country, reclaiming that mountain and letting labour see what can be done and forgetting about the land which is in bad shape for manure is not profitable work. The bit of land reclaimed under the scheme will, in a few years, revert to its original condition. I have seen that happen myself and I have no doubt about it.

In conclusion, I ask the Minister to give the greatest possible help he can to the farmers of Sligo-Leitrim. If he does not, Sligo-Leitrim in a few years' time will find itself with nothing except forestry and four, five or, perhaps, six holdings merged together. The result will be that the population will dwindle and nothing can ever compensate for the loss of population.

From every side of the House it has been freely admitted that agriculture is our premier industry. That being so, I think I could not stress too strongly the need for expenditure ad lib on this scheme. Local bodies such as county committees of agriculture and others should sometimes examine their consciences when they see what is being spent on roads, health and various other schemes as compared with the small amount of money going into agriculture. I have said before—and let me repeat it— that the Minister should advise the Department to set up the most virile marketing scheme it is possible to find.

The sad thing about agriculture is that farmers are advised to increase production. They set about doing so, and the next thing they find is that supply exceeds demand. We certainly have evidence of that this year. Wheat has been a very vexed question in this House recently. I will not go into that matter because I do not think there is any need to do so but, having mentioned that item, something should be done whereby the farmers will be advised in time as to the amount of wheat to grow and produce in order to keep themselves and everybody else —including the national Exchequer— out of trouble the following harvest. By doing that, everybody's face would be saved.

We have got into a panic lately— I am sure the Minister is more concerned than anybody else—with regard to our milk products and our butter. Everyone who has any interest at all in agriculture knows that milk and milk products, pigs and bacon products are what we call the farmer's friend and surely the friend of the small farmer, to say the least of it. Enough cannot be done in that direction to find alternative markets if Britain is to close the door on us and to push us out of the market to which we are most entitled. It is a shame really. It shows some ineptitude on our own part if we are unable to compete with other countries who have to bear costs which are by no means as light as ours to put their goods on the British market.

Everybody will admit that our cattle trade is the biggest factor in our economy and something which really should be nurtured. I would ask the Minister to put the Department to work as hard as possible to find alternative markets for our cattle, whether live or as dead meat. At the moment every farmer admits that the cattle trade is in a fairly sound position, whether beef or stores.

We find that the market has improved and is very good. At the same time, however, farmers fear— and it is not really any wonder— that at any time there may be a collapse such as we had a few years ago. Stores born in March were sold as beef in August. The margin left to the farmers was, very small indeed. I do not blame the Department for that; I do not blame the Minister for that. Again, it is a question of supply and demand and it demonstrates the need for a proper market research system.

One fear which I have about the cattle trade—I say it here without fear of contradiction by anybody— is that at the moment too many people, unfortunately, have become interested in the trade—people who have no knowledge of this trade, people who are racketeers and financiers. I do not know if the Minister has any say in this but I know that professionals and others are coming into the cattle trade who have no idea at all of what they are doing. A sadder aspect of the matter is that they have no interest in what they are doing. It is just an instance of the operating of a racket on the producers under the cloak of a pretence of being their greatest friends. I would advise the Minister in such circumstances, where it is necessary, to withhold licences from those people who enter the cattle trade under false pretences.

The subject of agriculture, whether it be on the principal Estimate or on a rather formidable Supplementary Estimate, always provokes a fairly general sort of discussion. Not only are the Department, and the activities of the Department, very widespread, but, in fact, if the Chair were not active, some Deputies would make those activities still wider.

It is sometimes interesting to sit here and listen to all the suggestions made by Deputies with regard to the problems of agriculture and how some of those problems might be approached. For example, this evening I heard some criticism of the activities of one board which was very recently established, and the Pigs and Bacon Commission which has recently been reconstituted. I think it is a mistake on our part— and when I say "a mistake on our part," I mean it is a mistake on the part of Deputies on all sides of the House—to engage in that sort of criticism, because the problems they were set up to deal with are problems which have been with us for a long time and they are problems to which Ministers, Departments and Governments have given their attention down the years with a view to finding suitable solutions for them.

During the course of the discussions which took place here on the establishment of An Bord Bainne and the reconstitution of the Pigs and Bacon Commission. I think I made it very clear that I appreciated fully what those problems were. I did not want to mislead either the House or the country as to the difficulties those organisations would be up against, and the disappointments that might result because of the delays which they would experience in approaching even something in the nature of a better solution than has yet been found to these important problems.

As I say, I suppose it is natural in dealing with a Supplementary Estimate for a Department with such a wide field of activities that there should be all sorts of suggestions. I do not think I should make any attempt to follow the different lines of thought to which expression was given so freely, and glibly in some cases—for example, the request that feeding stuffs should be made available at a cheap or a low rate. Every one of us would be glad if that could be accomplished, but, on the other hand, we have a policy, and have had it for some years, of trying to induce our farmers and landowners to grow some of those feeding stuffs. We have approved of that policy. We have given them a minimum price for what they grow and having done that, we have, of course, taken a step which will influence the price at which the grain they grow will be made available to those who purchase it for the purpose of converting it into livestock feeding and other produce.

During the course of the discussion this evening—and not only this evening but on the previous occasion—some few questions were addressed to me which I feel I should answer. Deputy Tully raised the matter of the provision in the Supplementary Estimate for the Agricultural Institute, and he seemed to make the complaint that the Agricultural Institute was not provided with all the funds it requested. I asked for figures showing the increasing amounts that have been provided for agricultural reseach of all kinds inside the past three years. I find that in 1959-60, the total amount was £145,655; in 1960-61, it was £400,000; and in 1961-62, it is £½ million. A grant of £½ million to the Agricultural Institute, so recently established, in any one year, is not an ungenerous gesture.

It would be wrong to think that the Institute itself is dependent upon that sum. The Institute has an independent income of £80,000, or so, and a fixed capital sum for capital purposes. It also has a tidy income from sales of produce, livestock, etc. In fact, the total income available to it would be in the neighbourhood of £700,000 per year. It is not reasonable for Deputies to think that, however generously the Institute should be treated and is being treated, because it prepares an estimate as to what it would like its expenditure to be, the Government must agree to such sum. As I say, the evidence is there that it has been treated generously, I would say, and that is as it should be. There is certainly no ground for complaint on that head, according to my reasoning.

I was asked how much of this Supplementary Estimate is being charged to capital. The guarantee payments under the bovine tuberculosis eradication scheme, subhead K.K.11, and the grants under the farm buildings scheme, Subhead K.6, are chargeable to capital. There have been some savings on other subheads which are charged to capital and the net amount chargeable to capital is £4,450,000, the balance of £5,850,000 being chargeable to revenue.

Another Deputy asked me whether the provision for the 1960 wheat crop in the Supplementary Estimate represents the total cost of Exchequer assistance for that crop. It does not represent the total cost, because there was also a payment in the financial year 1960-61. Exchequer payments on the 1960 wheat crop, spread over the financial years 1960-61 and 1961-62, are £2,000,000.

Some complaint was made here as to the way in which the unmillable wheat was disposed of. That was the responsibility of the Grain Bord. The Board handled the 1960 wheat crop and, of course, in handling it and making recommendations as to how it should be handled, they had to have regard to the fact that we have a guaranteed minimum price for barley, to the capacity of our farmers to use not only the barley crop but the amount of wheat that was regarded as unmillable, plus the need to have certain imports that would enable us to have a balanced ration. They had to have regard to all these things in any recommendation they made.

Were they not forbidden to sell that wheat until 9th January of this year? Is it not a fact that the Grain Board were not allowed to market wheat from the previous harvest until 9th January of this year? That is my information.

That is not so.

That is what is genuinely understood.

That is not so.

I accept that.

A further question was raised here by Deputy Lynch, not for the first time, about the £250,000 allocated for marketing purposes a few years ago. The Deputy complained that the expenditure from this allocation has so far been comparatively small. One of the reasons for that is that the Advisory Committee on Agricultural Marketing suggested that the new marketing boards they proposed should have the use of part of these funds. These new boards, that is, An Bord Bainne and the reorganised Pigs and Bacon Commission, have been set up only quite recently and discussions are to take place with them about the use of part of the funds to which the Deputy referred.

I do not think there is anything wrong with that. I do not think that simply because the Minister for Finance makes a sum of money available for a particular purpose, somebody should lash it around irrespective of whether there were likely to be beneficial results from the expenditure or not. This sum of money was provided quite genuinely and the Agricultural Marketing Advisory Committee in their recommendation, which can be read by any Deputy, suggested as I have indicated. Now that the boards and the reorganised Commission are functioning, building up an organisation and trying to understand the problem with which they have to grapple, discussions as to when, where and how this sum can be expended to the benefit of the agricultural industry are all to the good.

On the question of butter, I do not think I could go as far as Deputy Dillon in saying that the imposition of the anti-dumping duty was a formal breach of the 1948 Trade Agreement. The Commodity Annex to that Agreement related to bulk purchase by the British Government in the four years 1948 to 1952, and that Annex has lapsed. At the same time, I would agree that Article I of this Agreement, and the general provisions of the 1938 and 1960 Agreements, run counter in spirit to the use of anti-dumping duties to stop trade in one of our major agricultural exports. In view of the mass of information on the butter question which is given in the Government's White Paper, I do not wish to say very much more on the subject, and it would also be my wish not to say or do anything which might in any way exacerbate the situation. I can only say that there has been no question of our adopting an intransigent or unbending attitude and, indeed, I think we did everything possible to avert the present situation, short of conceding the whole principle that is involved. We, for our part, are quite ready at any time to resume discussions on this matter on a reasonable and constructive basis.

There are no discussions going on at the moment?

Let us hope you will have them soon.

Deputy Dillon talked here about the condition of agriculture and the depressed state of the industry. I do not think there is any justification at all for using a discussion on the subject of agriculture for such a purpose. For a number of years now the Deputy in question has always referred to 1957 as the year in which agriculture was tremendously prosperous but the Deputy does not refer to a number of other years when he was in the Department of Agriculture. I am admitting, and I always did admit—as I said in this House on previous occasions, it is a mistake to pretend that something is a fact that is not a fact—that 1957 was a good year. It was a good season; there were good crops; there were good prices; and the condition of the market to which we were exporting most of that produce was very favourable. The present year is described by the same Deputy as one in which agriculture is on its last legs. That description is inaccurate as these facts will show: it is estimated that the income of farmers and members of their families, after deducting expenses of production, including rates, wages, etc., will be £7 million to £8 million greater in 1961 than in 1957. Deputy Dillon, of course, expressed reservations about 1961 as to the advisability of relying upon official figures. The way in which the figures for 1961 were arrived at and the people who arrived at them are the same as in 1957. If the manner in which the figures we have been hearing about every other day, that is, the figures for 1957, were compiled, was good, the same can be said about the figures produced in 1961.

There is no purpose to be served by these antics, especially if we are sincerely interested in agriculture and in helping agriculture. As I have often contended in this House, the fact that that sort of argument is advanced makes no impact at all upon the minds of farmers, except to whatever extent it may depress some of them.

No one will contend that everything is just as we would wish it to be; no one, and certainly not the Minister for Agriculture, will contend that there is not much to be done, much to be desired, but we are hardly likely to achieve our objectives and bring about the further improvements we would like to see just by using figures for a year that suits the political book and turning then to a year which will not suit the political book and pretending there is something mysterious about the way these figures have been arrived at.

Will the Minister——

The Minister will continue his speech.

All right,

Not only is that the story on the fact of the results of 1961, but at no time was the direct assistance to agriculture in every shape and form as high as it is this year. That surely is no evidence and no indication of a lack of confidence. I should like to say to those who are concerned, as we all are, about the position regarding our butter and other agricultural produce, that it is the duty of the Government and the Department of Agriculture, and the responsibility of the Minister, to do their utmost in regard to these matters, because milk, milk products, the cattle trade, the pig industry and the bacon industry, are all fundamental questions as far as our economy is concerned. It is the duty of the Government to stand by these, to protect and shelter them to the best of their ability, having regard to the resources that from time to time are available to a country in which agriculture and agricultural exports play such a predominant part. The producers, I have often admitted in this House, of these very important products are not by any means being compensated lavishly for engaging in their production but they can at least have this assurance, that as far as I am concerned, and as far as the Government are concerned, we shall stand by them to the utmost in protecting and shielding them and shielding the prices they obtain for these products, against any action which might affect prices in the future. They can have every confidence in that respect.

Would the Minister not agree that since the farmer is getting about three per cent. or two per cent. less for his produce than in 1953, it was a dismal year and not a wonderful year? The farmer lives on profit and not on his production.

I am talking about the income the farmer earned during these two years.

Gross and net. The year 1961 has been £7 million to £8 million better than the year we have heard so much about——

And he got three per cent. less for his produce and his costs are up by 50 per cent.

——and still we are told that agriculture is just on its uppers.

It is contrary to practice to have an argument after a Minister has concluded.

Vote put and agreed to.
Supplementary Estimate reported and agreed to.
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