Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 27 Mar 1962

Vol. 194 No. 4

Committee on Finance. - Vote 47—Defence.

Aire Cosanta (Gearóid MacPharthaláin)

Go ndeonófar suim fhorlíontach nach mó ná £10 chun íoctha an mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31ú lá de Mhárta, 1962, le haghaidh Óglaigh na hÉireann (lena n-áirítear Deontais-i-gCabhair áirithe) faoi na hAchtanna Cosanta, 1954 agus 1960 (Uimh. 18 de 1954 agus Uimh. 44 de 1960), agus le haghaidh Costais áirithe riaracháin i ndáil leis an gcéanna; le haghaidh Costais áirithe faoi na hAchtanna. um Chiontaí in aghaidh an Stáit, 1939 agus 1940 (Uimh. 13 de 1939 agus Uimh. 2 de 1940), agus faoi na hAchtanna um Réamhchúram in aghaidh Aer-Ruathar, 1939 agus 1946 (Uimh. 21 de 1939 agus Uimh. 28 de 1946); le haghaidh Costais i ndáil le Boinn a thabhairt amach, etc., agus le haghaidh Deontas-i-gCabhair do Chumann Croise Deirge na hÉireann (Uimh. 32 de 1938).

The introduction of this Supplementary Estimate becomes necessary mainly because expenditure under Subhead P (Defensive Equipment) of the Vote for Defence for the present financial year will be substantially greater than the voted provision and because it is proposed to utilise additional receipts by way of Appropriations-in-Aid. There will also be increased expenditure, because of recent increases in salaries, pay and allowances, under Subhead A—Pay of Officers, etc.; Subhead B—Marriage Allowance; Subhead G—Subsistence and other Allowances; and Subhead Y—Departmental Salaries, etc. Under Subhead F, there is provision for the replacement of stores issued from stock on repayment to the United Nations for use in the Congo; under Subhead P2, there is provision for the cost of the purchase and repair, etc., of the yacht "Asgard", and there is also increased expenditure under Subhead AA in respect of the Special Criminal Court. The gross total additional expenditure under all these subheads is estimated at £278,827.

The net provision for defensive equipment in this year's Vote is £149,051, consisting of £20,130 to meet sums outstanding in respect of equipment ordered in previous financial years and a net sum of £128,921 for new purchases. The total expenditure under this heading will, it is now estimated, be £280,051, consisting of £44,055 in respect of equipment ordered in previous financial years but not delivered until the current year—a matter over which we really have no control—and £235,996 in respect of new purchases. It is expected that there will, therefore, be a net excess of £131,000 on the subhead. Subsequent to the framing of the Estimate for 1961/62, conditions in the Congo, where some of our troops were serving, changed by reason of the resolution adopted by the Security Council of the United Nations on the 21st February, 1961, authorising the use of force, if necessary, by the United Nations forces there. Deputies will, no doubt, recollect that my predecessor in office, when speaking on the Estimate for the present financial year, assured the House that the question of the equipment of our troops serving in the Congo was being kept constantly under review and that any additional equipment considered necessary in the light of experience or changed conditions would be supplied and no effort spared to make it readily available.

In the light of the changed circumstances, it was decided to purchase a quantity of up-to-date small arms and ammunition for our troops in the Congo to enable them more effectively to discharge their role there, as well as a quantity for the training of the troops at home in their use. These purchases were financed as far as possible by the curtailment of purchases of other types of defensive equipment, leaving the net estimated excess expenditure of £131,000 already mentioned.

Concurrently with the decision to purchase the small arms and ammunition to which I have referred, it was decided to dispose of a quantity of obsolescent small arms and ammunition. As a result of such disposal and additional receipts in other respects, Appropriations in Aid are now expected to amount to £157,755 more than originally estimated.

Deputies are aware that the Government decided to purchase the yacht "Asgard" because of its historical associations. The cost, together with fees, repairs and sundry other items, amounted to £6,040 approximately. After purchase and repair, the yacht was, at the end of last July, taken over by a crew provided by my Department and brought to Howth for the reception ceremony. She will, from now on, have a limited use, in connection with the training of members of an Slua Muiri at Dún Laoghaire.

It is proposed to apply the increased Appropriations in Aid which I have mentioned, together with anticipated savings on other subheads, to meeting the additional expenditure about which I have spoken, necessitating only a token Vote of £10.

Mr. Cosgrave

This Supplementary Estimate is similar to other Supplementary Estimates which have been moved in respect of salary and wage adjustments and accordingly meets with our approval. However, I am anxious to ascertain from the Minister the date on which the pay and salary increases have been made effective and whether it is possible to say if final details of salary increases have been worked out for each rank. I should also like to know if the Minister can say what are the percentage increases for officers, N.C.O.s and privates.

One of the effects of salary increases is that they impose a very serious differential on personnel who have retired recently compared with those who have retired since salary and wage adjustments were made. Pensions are, and have been for as long as one can remember, both in the Army and elsewhere, awarded on the basis of pay on retirement. That was satisfactory enough when wages and salaries were constant and provided the person attained a certain rank he secured the pension appropriate to that rank. Nowadays, because of the increase in the cost of living, and the salary and wage adjustments that are consequent on these increases, many retired personnel find that although they reached the same rank, and served up to the same age limit as their colleagues, they find that merely because they happened to retire a month or two, or sometimes only a few days, earlier than persons serving in a similar rank and who retired at a similar age limit, their pensions are quite substantially lower because of the arbitrary fixing of the effective date of the new pay award. Undoubtedly this is a matter which affects more than the Minister's Department, and the personnel serving under the Department of Defence, but it is a matter which should be the subject of consideration.

There will be general satisfaction that up-to-date small arms have been provided for our troops in the Congo. One of the criticisms expressed here on previous occasions was that in the earlier period our troops were inadequately equipped compared with troops serving from other countries. On the other hand, we should endeavour to keep the purchase of defensive equipment to the minimum because of the very rapid changes in the type of equipment now in use and the fact that much of the equipment purchased becomes rapidly obsolete. At the same time it is satisfactory that it has been possible to equip our troops with the up-to-date small arms which are generally in use there and which I understand have been provided now for some months for our personnel serving there.

I wonder would it be possible for the Minister to give the latest figures for the sums of money refunded to this country by the United Nations in respect of our troops in the Congo and also if he could say whether these sums are refunded at regular intervals. One of the unsatisfactory features of the United Nations operations so far as certain countries are concerned, including our own, is that while we pay our liabilities to the full and on time, other countries are in arrear in respect of their subscriptions. Consequently, in addition to paying our own portion of it, we have been obliged to subscribe to these special bonds as well. At any rate, it would be satisfactory to know, in respect of any refunds due to us, that payments are made at regular intervals.

Mr. Tully

The Estimate being discussed is, I suppose, very necessary. In fact, the Minister had no option but to look for extra money to cover the various things referred to in his opening statement. The amount of money being spent on small arms for our troops in the Congo appears perhaps fairly high, but, when we consider that until the Congo operation started the Army units in this country were still going gaily onwards with the old Lee Enfield rifles and equipment which had gone out of date and was considered obsolete in practically every other civilised country in the world, the picture appears different.

The Minister will agree that the amount being spent on arms should be kept down as much as possible in a country such as ours which has no intention of attacking anyone, but I still think that what arms are needed should be the very best and that we should get whatever modern equipment we can afford. It is not fair to the solider of today to expect him to carry on either in Ireland or in the Congo, in a training period or under active service conditions, with the type of equipment and arms used by his predecessors over a long period of years.

With reference to the Congo, I am wondering whether the time has not come when the Minister and the Government should take a look at the situation there. There are rumours about another battalion going out. I suppose if that is being planned there will be extra costs involved. There is no doubt that the Irish Government sent out the troops with the full support of this House and they have been doing their very best there under very trying conditions. There are so many garbled versions of what did and what did not happen there trickling through now that the Minister should see to it that the good name of the Irish soldier is preserved, because there are people only too anxious to seize on the slightest opportunity of taking away not only the characters of the soldiers concerned but the reputation which the Irish have of being brave men and particularly brave soldiers. The Minister, being the type of man he is, will ensure that every effort will be made to see that the smear campaign being used, particularly in the press across the water, will be dealt with adequately.

The question of rates of pay does not arise now, but I would say that the Minister has made a great start and the question was dealt with in a very reasonable way during his short time in the Department. I would ask him to continue the good work, because if we are going to have a satisfied army—and we need it—we must treat it decently. There is still a long way to go with regard to rates of wages and conditions of service, particularly uniforms and housing conditions, which the Minister might keep in mind in the coming year.

With reference to pensions, I should like to say that while the whole pension system in this State seems to be built up on a kind of topsy turvy system where you do not know who is entitled to what, there is one small group of people who were in at the foundation of this State and who served the country very well. In 1954 an Act of this House gave them an extension of a couple of years of service, which was subsequently removed in 1957. They had very decently been given an extra two years' pay on retirement as if serving officers, but when it came to make up their pensions that period was not considered for pension purposes. The Minister is well aware of the people referred to. A very small group is involved, and I would ask him again to look at that and see if he could do something even at this late stage to give justice to people who helped to found the State, as an unfortunate decision by a Minister at that particular period treated them very unjustly.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

On political grounds.

Mr. Tully

I am not going into that.

Mr. Sherwin

I do not intend to go into great detail now, but rather on the Minister's main Estimate. I shall deal with certain statements that he has made. He stated that part of the sum required was for the purchase of equipment ordered in previous financial years. Does that mean that this stuff is somewhat obsolete? The Minister then stated that it was necessary to re-equip with small arms our forces in the Congo. In other words, he admitted that the arms they possessed were of no advantage, and that the equipment of our Army at home was of little advantage. The men who left were equipped with the form of weapons used here, and one can bet that they went with the best, and if the force in the Congo has weapons which were obsolete then the weapons of the Army at home must be obsolete.

Again, the Minister referred to the need for equipping our forces with modern small arms. Against whom?— an infant State, a State of no consequence, with no fire power anyway equal to any modern State. If the Minister found it necessary to purchase modern small arms to stand up against an infant State, partly civilised, what chance then would that same force have had against a modern State if for some reason the United Nations required our support? If, in fact, at some future date a greater force is required against some modern State will we then be faced with the position where we will have only a small force not found capable of dealing with backward people in the Congo?

How will we stand up to a modern army in some modern State? Is the Minister satisfied that the armed forces are equipped at all to take their part with the United Nations? In view of the statements made, I do not think so. I propose to go into this point in more detail on the main Estimate, and there is nothing more I have to say now except that I am convinced from what has been said that we are in no position to play a part against any modern force if required to do so and therefore the lives of our soldiers are largely at stake on that account in the Congo.

Mr. O'Sullivan

Before dealing with some of the matters consequential to the introduction of this Supplementary Estimate, I should like to make some remarks which would perhaps be more applicable on the main Estimate but which might have lost some of their topicality by that time. Perhaps I would be allowed on this occasion to express the appreciation of the citizens of Cork of the work which the Army rendered in the recent flooding episode in that city. On an occasion when a sudden emergency arose, the rapidity with which the Army came to the assistance of the citizens was most praiseworthy. I have nothing but the highest commendation for the efficiency and courtesy of those participating in the relief of people stranded, both pedestrians and people with vehicles. It is occasions like this which bring home to the people the advantage of having a highly-organised service available, such as is provided by the Army.

With regard to the remarks of the Minister in relation to our participation in the Congo influencing the purchase of certain small arms, we may take it this development is regarded as being necessary for our troops in any action they may be called upon to participate in and that it is not solely because of the Congo. While the people are prepared to see the State play its part in the contribution made towards financing the effort, there is a feeling that we did play our part in that respect and it would not be well received if it were found there were charges bearing on the Exchequer solely applicable to our participating in the Congo, in view of the power playing of so many other wealthier nations who did not play their part in financing the operation. We may take it that these purchases have arisen because it has been brought home by our experience in that region that they were to the normal advantage of the Army and not particularly for that case.

With regard to the increases that have been awarded, there is no doubt, as Deputy Cosgrave said, they were absolutely necessary so that we could maintain the personnel we have and attract more suitable personnel by way of recruitment. It is a matter of concern, and there was some conjecture regarding the point, that we found it difficult to get that measure of recruiting we require. It was felt it was because there was nothing happening and that life was dull in the Army. It was thought that with the glamour and publicity attending our participation in the Congo there would be improved recruiting. It has been brought home to everybody that, unless men can get a suitable reward for their service in the Army, they will not be forthcoming. They are no longer attracted by the glamour of a uniform or the way of life in the Army because they, like everybody, must maintain families. Unless we are prepared to pay them adequately, we cannot hope to get anything like the type we would wish to serve in the Army.

There is a considerable grievance among the personnel employed by the Department of Defence in Cork harbour in regard to transport. Some 35 men engaged on these vessels have applied for an improvement in their conditions both by way of pay and by way of more suitable working hours. The hours they are called on to work and the conditions under which they have to work are very serious. They provide a service which is absolutely desirable. I would ask the Minister to look into the claims that have been made by the transport section, Naval, Army and civilian, on the islands in the harbour, and to see that the claims made by these men will be favourably considered as soon as possible, so that whatever grievances may exist will be eliminated at the earliest opportunity. I hope that the voting of these additional moneys will make it possible for the Minister to go a long way towards improving their pay and conditions.

Mr. Booth

I would agree with Deputy O'Sullivan in his comments on the matter of pay. While I greatly rejoice that the question of pay has not been entirely ignored and that £100,000 more has now to be provided, I should not like the Minister or the Government to feel that the matter has been finally adjusted. I need only point out that prior to the recent pay increase, there was a disparity between the pay of a commandant and that of a higher executive officer in the Civil Service of £150. It has always been a source of grievance to Army officers that their rates of pay have been so far below those of equivalent ranks in the Civil Service. That disparity between a commandant and a Civil Service higher executive officer has now been increased from £150 to £175, which means that the Civil Service officer has got proportionately a higher increase than the Army officer. The question of children's allowances is still a matter of grievance, and I hope that in the main Estimates these matters will be discussed more fully. While I welcome the increased rates of pay we are now providing, I hope the Minister will not feel that everything has been done and everything in the garden is lovely.

On the question of Subhead P— Defensive Equipment—I should like to say, in defence of the Minister, that I am absolutely satisfied that the troops sent out originally to the Congo were properly equipped for the task given to them. I thought that the Minister made that perfectly clear. It was not a matter of the troops being sent out inadequately equipped, but of their task being altered. Whereas originally they went out purely on a police operation, they were subsequently instructed by the Security Council of the United Nations to use force, if necessary, to suppress a civil war. This meant a change in the whole operation. Whereas it would have seemed aggressive, and might even have incited people to violence, if United Nations troops came in very heavily armed on the first occasion, it subsequently became necessary that the armament carried by them should be of a more offensive type.

Mr. Sherwin

The other forces came in well armed.

Mr. Booth

That remains to be seen. In actual fact, I do not think there was any great disparity between the respective forces at all. Every effort was made, as far as I understand it, to have a standard system. It is a matter of general knowledge now that our troops in the Congo are no longer armed with the British type rifle, the Lee-Enfield, but with the Belgian FN rifle. There is, I think, quite an unnecessry air of secrecy about the details of armament possessed and carried by our troops. I feel on this occasion the Minister might be a little more specific in his reference to the defensive equipment. If, as appears to be the case, the great proportion of the new equipment purchased by reason of the Congo operation was accounted for by the supply of FN rifles, many of us in this House and outside it would be interested to know that fact.

I must say I take an almost unholy joy in the increase shown under subhead (Z)—Appropriations in Aid— because for several years now, I have been advocating on every Estimate that we would sell surplus and obsolete equipment. I was therefore very glad to hear the Minister say we had at last got rid of a substantial quantity of obsolete small arms. I do not know whether we have got rid of all we could get rid of, but I would urge the Minister to press on because as long as this equipment is kept, some unfortunate quartermaster has to look after it and a number of N.C.O's and men will be kept busy cleaning it and checking it from time to time. The sooner we get rid of it, the better. I am delighted to see that an additional sum of £140,000 has been realised and I hope the good work will go on.

Mr. McQuillan

There is a sum of £887 in this Supplementary Estimate in connection with the Offences Against the State Act and the Special Criminal Court. I hope this is the last time we shall have any such Estimate before the House. The majority of the people in this country do not realise that the Special Criminal Court is composed of men who have little or no knowledge of the law, over and above what an ordinary layman has. I say that in no sense of disrespect to the officers concerned. They are laymen given a job which should be done by our judges in the various courts.

Mr. Booth

By the juries, not the judges.

Mr. McQuillan

As far as the courts are concerned, it is a fact beyond dispute that full information with regard to sentences to be imposed is available even before the cases are heard. There is no question that as far as justice was concerned, it was the last thing the defendants got. Members of the police force and of the court consulted on what would be suitable sentences, depending on the pressure being brought to bear by the Government of the day. That is not justice.

Mr. Booth

Can the Deputy substantiate that?

Mr. McQuillan

It is not a question of approving or disapproving of the activities of the people brought before that court. It is entirely a question of what is true justice in this State and I am glad to see that this Supplementary Estimate will be the last of its kind here. I was told in reply to questions that the necessity for this court——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy may not pursue that point. The court was set up by an Act of this House and criticism of legislation is not in order on the Estimate.

Mr. McQuillan

There is a sum of £887 which the Minister said was required in respect of the Special Criminal Court. In the circumstances, surely I am entitled to criticise the expenditure of this money?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

But the Deputy is not in order in criticising the setting up of the courts or the decisions of the courts.

Mr. McQuillan

I am entitled to criticise the expenditure of the sum involved. May I put it this way: in so far as this court is concerned, the reason we are spending the money is that the Government found it necessary, in accordance with their own information, to set up a court. The information given to them, we were told, was that the evidence would not be forthcoming to convict those men and that the question of intimidation of juries was likely to arise. I asked what evidence was available to the Government, through the police force, that there was a danger of intimidation of juries and the reply I was given by the Minister was that there was no evidence available that juries would be intimidated. I think it showed lack of confidence in our people; it showed lack of maturity on the part of the Government and it showed that, as far as the general public were concerned, the Government had no confidence that Irishmen or juries——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is proceeding to criticise the setting up of these courts and as I have already pointed out to him, it is not in order to criticise an Act of this House.

Mr. McQuillan

I am merely giving the reasons why I think we do not want any more expenditure of this nature. If I do not give the reasons why I think such courts should not be there, I cannot very well criticise the expenditure involved. I merely want to bring it home clearly that this money need never have been spent and that justice would still have been done. In this House and outside it, we subscribe to the Convention on Human Rights, and we criticise other countries for daring to set up such courts. It is only fair that we should criticise ourselves for failing to see that justice is done in this country. The argument that juries would be likely to be intimidated and that evidence was not likely to be forthcoming does not hold water.

I shall give an example. There was an attempted jail break not so long ago by a number of prisoners. Those prisoners were retried, if you like, on charges of attempting to escape but they were retried before the Special Criminal Court. Why was it necessary to do that? Why could they not have been brought before the ordinary courts of justice in the State? Was it because there was no evidence forthcoming? Was there not plenty of evidence there? Was there a question of the State being afraid juries would not do their duty in connection with it?

I shall put it as bluntly as I can. I think it was a wrong decision on the part of the Government to set up the special criminal courts. I feel we would have less expenditure of the nature we are providing for here today, if the Government had stuck to the normal procedure of justice. I regret to have to say that I really feel the reason why the Special Criminal Court was set up was that pressure was brought to bear on the Government from outside the State.

On the question of Subhead P— Defence Equipment—I shall not join the other Deputies on a trip to the Congo as far as conditions are concerned, but I should like the Minister to break down the figure for us: what defence equipment was involved; what proportion was small arms, such as sub-machine guns; what proportion was ammunition; and what part of it was equipment such as helmets and so forth? Was a proportion of it armoured cars and were they purchased within the last eight months? Were the armoured cars concerned inferior and were the troops who used them satisfied they were not inferior to the Swedish cars available to the units from the Swedish force there? I know there was considerable satisfaction amongst the troops, earlier on, that the equipment was made available.

Purely for information purposes, at this stage, I should like the Minister to break down the figures so that we would have an opportunity of making up our minds on the question. As Deputy Booth said, there should not be too great an air of secrecy about all this. There is no question of any secret weapon involved as far as our Army is concerned. It is not unreasonable to suggest that full details might be given of the number of machine guns and other types of equipment purchased for this sum of £141,000 which the House is now giving to the Minister.

Mr. Jones

My intervention will be brief. I join with Deputy Booth in saying I am glad some of the old equipment is being got rid of. It is equipment that has been found to be of no value in a State with a modern Army. Consequently, it would only involve us in the expense of keeping it from going rusty.

I want to refer to an item in the Appropriations in Aid which deals with the sale of surplus stores and unserviceable clothing. I should like information in respect of that item. How much of the actual appropriation referred to small fire arms and what portion of it referred to clothing? Some part of this surplus clothing is, I take it, uniform which has been found to be either unserviceable at present or surplus to requirements. I hope the Minister will tell us in what fashion it is disposed of. Is it disposed of by way of contract, for example?

Another item in the Appropriations in Aid which I notice is item No. 12— Receipts on discharge by purchase. I should like the Minister to comment on it. Are we to take it from that that more people, for one reason or another, are seeking their discharge from the Army by way of purchase? That is what seems to be indicated by this item.

Deputies have already made reference to the fact that the recruiting campaign as such has not so far met with the measure of success which everybody would desire. I should be concerned if there were a greater tendency to be attested into the Army without being considered suitable and, if found unsuitable, their discharge is sought under this heading.

In the ordinary way, we are aware that over the years our full complement of Army personnel has not been reached. Perhaps the conditions of service, conditions of pay, and so on, did not attract young people. This Estimate reflects an improvement of conditions and, as such, is to be welcomed. I should like the Minister to tell us something in this connection in relation to the Appropriations in Aid.

Reference was made by Deputy Sherwin to the type of equipment which is being bought and to which the Minister referred as coming to account at this stage though ordered on previous occasions. I take it that the normal practice here is, as formerly, that equipment ordered in one year is not included until the next financial year and that that is all that is mentioned.

I take it that the equipment available is the most modern type and that we are no worse off in that respect than any other country which is ordering light arms. The improvement in conditions in so far as the men are concerned is to be welcomed. It is essential that the fine tradition which our soldiers abroad have upheld by their conduct in the Congo—and which, in some quarters, has been decried—should be maintained. I join with other Deputies in praising their conduct there.

There is one other item to which I would ask the Minister to refer, that is Subhead F—Medicines and Instruments—replacement of stores issued to the United Nations. I take it that the £2,500 for that equipment will be recovered in due course from the organisation concerned?

Mr. Bartley

That is correct.

Mr. Jones

It is merely a book-keeping item.

Mr. Bartley

We shall be having the main Estimate in a short time. I take it that I will hardly be expected to go into great detail now, seeing that the next occasion is not so far away.

In reply to Deputy Cosgrave, I should say that the increased pay to officers and men is effective from 1st November last. This question about the percentage increase can be answered by saying that it is more or less in line with the percentage increases granted to the Civil Service in general.

With regard to the point which he made about the ill-luck of those who retired before the effective date for the new pay rates, all I can say is that, no matter where we fixed the date, there would always be somebody on the wrong side of it. I do not think there is anything open to me to do to remedy that position. On other occasions, the remedy was found by way of a general increase of pensions provided by the Minister for Finance. Deputy Cosgrave also asked me to give the total payments by the United Nations. So far, we have made three claims. The payments under these three claims have been very little short of £600,000.

Deputy Tully asked me to do what I can to preserve the good name of our soldiers. I take it he is referring to our troops who are serving as part of the United Nations Force in the Congo. He has given me a pretty big task there because of the persistent desire on the part of certain newspapers to blacken not alone the Irish troops in the Congo but all the United Nations contingents there who are trying to carry out the United Nations mandate. In the recent case the Minister for External Affairs did issue a statement, on behalf of the Government generally and particularly on behalf of our troops.

Mr. Corish

That newspaper would not mind that. A little more, perhaps, is needed.

Mr. Bartley

Can the Deputy suggest what other action I might take as Minister for Defence?

Mr. Corish

Not the Minister for Defence.

Mr. Tully

Could the Minister for External Affairs not raise the matter at the United Nations? Were not other members of the U.N.O. involved?

Mr. Bartley

I recall that only a matter of a few days ago a very important person across the Channel had a most uncomplimentary remark to make about the same papers.

There is not as much money being provided for housing as we would like but at least something is being done every year. Since the end of the war, over 160 houses have been provided as married quarters, generally outside the confines of the various barracks. As regards Deputy Tully's references to pensions I must point out that pensions are irrelevant on this Estimate but we shall have the main pensions Estimate in the course of a few weeks.

Deputy Sherwin queried my reference to the payments in respect of the carry-over on deliveries of equipment from previous orders. This is no fault of the Department because delivery dates, I understand, are outside their control. We must take the equipment when it is offered. That is why the subsequent payments arise. Deputy Sherwin also questioned whether the Army was adequately equipped. I do not know exactly what he means by that term. It is very largely a matter of opinion nowadays, but our men in the Congo are as well equipped with personal weapons as any other contingent in the United Nations Force. The particular weapon that has given rise to the increase for which I am seeking money is the new F.N. rifle which is essentially a personal weapon but which can be used as a sub-machinegun or as a single-shot weapon. I take it that the fact that we are in the United Nations and have a contingent serving in that Force enables us to get those weapons much sooner than, I think, would ordinarily be possible. I understand they were only generally available some time last year. They are very expensive weapons and we have seen to it that our units in the Congo are well equipped with them.

Mr. Sherwin

What about our Army here?

Mr. Bartley

We have sufficient of them at home to train our units and they are receiving training. In fact, in anticipation of the United Nations requesting a battalion and of the request being granted by the Government, the necessary preparations are being made by the Army to fulfil it. One of the preparations is the training of men in the uses of this most modern weapon.

Whether or not our troops are adequately equipped may possibly be answered to the satisfaction of Deputy Sherwin when I tell him that in the serious fighting before Christmas the most difficult task was assigned to the Irish contingent, the task concerning the tunnel which received so much publicity. That should go some way to answer the Deputy's query and assuage his anxiety.

I shall have Deputy O'Sullivan's remarks about the aid given by the Cork Army units during the recent flooding in Cork passed on to the officers in the Cork Command. As regards his questions about recruits and the suggestion that the answer would be better pay, the men now have better pay. So far as I can find out a married man, a three star soldier, is as well off as any man in comparable employment outside, but the fact is that there are so many opportunities for employment outside that we have the usual experience of not being able to get men in the Army when outside employment is available.

In regard to the ferry service at Cork Harbour, that claim was made about January and is under consideration. It depends to some extent on a wider claim made on Cork Harbour Commissioners for somewhat similar classes of employees and when that claim has been resolved the question raised by Deputy O'Sullivan will be dealt with.

Deputy Booth asked about the differential between a Commandant and a Higher Executive Officer in the Civil Service before and after getting increases. I wonder if the situation bears the interpretation he puts on it, or whether, if other advantages and perquisites were taken into consideration, there would not be a fairly general equalisation. However, he will have a further opportunity, if he has further evidence to give on the matter, to bring it up on the main Estimate which will be introduced shortly.

Deputy McQuillan asked about the breakdown of equipment and I think I have given that information already. The main item is the purchase of the new F.N. submachine guns. They account for the largest single item, £147,000. There is also £69,000 for 84 m.m. recoilless anti-tank guns.

In regard to Deputy Jones's queries on the Appropriations-in-Aid, I do not think I can give him all the information he seeks particularly in regard to clothes, but the main cause of the increases has been the sale of these obsolete and obsolescent weapons. I understand that the market is mainly in the United States where they are used for sporting purposes and that £130,000 has been realised by the sale of such weapons. We shall probably be able to give him more detailed information on the appropriations in general when the main Estimate comes along.

I do not think any other point was raised. If there is any point with which I have not dealt adequately, it will be open to Deputies to put their questions again on the main Estimate.

Vote put and agreed to.