Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 7 Jun 1962

Vol. 195 No. 16

Committee on Finance. - Vote 39—Lands (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:

"That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration."—(Deputy O.J. Flanagan.)

Mr. Reynolds

There is no doubt that the Department of Lands is one of the most important Departments in this State. The whole economy of our agricultural community is based on it. Down the years, the Land Commission, under various Ministers, has done a tremendous amount of very useful work, particularly in the West of Ireland.

We all realise the hardships that are created for inspectors of the Land Commission, particularly in areas such as that which I represent from which people migrate from time to time. It is not too easy to decide who should be migrated. The inspector must see if the applicant is worthy to be migrated. He must see if he is a hardworking, industrious farmer, and so on. Then the inspector must decide the people amongst whom the migrant's holding will be divided. It is obvious that a tremendous amount of work is involved and that migration and land division are bound to be very slow.

I thought that nearly all the holdings in my adopted constituency of Roscommon were economic. Since my election to this House as a representative of that constituency, a number of people, particularly from North Roscommon, have made representations to me on various occasions with a view to having their holdings increased. Some made representations to me to try to have them migrated from that area.

I looked up the statistics for the year and they were amazing. Take County Roscommon. The total number of holdings there is about 15,000. Of those, about 3,370 are between 100 and 15 acres; about 5,680 are between 15 and 30 acres; about 4,035 are between 30 and 50 acres, giving a total of 13,085. That means that in Roscommon there are a number of holdings which are not economic. As various Deputies have said, the acreage of the holdings must be increased to make them economic. That in itself is something the Land Commission should think about.

The position in Leitrim is much worse. The total number of holdings there between 10 and 15 acres is 2,617; between 15 and 30 acres, 3,951; between 30 and 50 acres, 2,359; making a total of 8,927. There are only 10,200 holdings in Leitrim altogether. That clearly indicates that there are 8,000 people out of 10,000 people living on uneconomic holdings. The Land Commission should try to remedy that situation as soon as possible.

Last year, three people were migrated from Leitrim. The year before, two people were migrated, and I doubt if there were any people migrated in the years prior to that. Unless the Land Commission are prepared to move that figure up to at least 10 or 12 every year, in South Leitrim particularly, we must admit it will be a long time before the problem of the uneconomic holdings in Leitrim is solved. They cannot possibly live on those holdings. Most of them try to get public work to subsidise their income from the farm. A tremendous number of Leitrim farmers offer themselves for employment to the county council or to anyone who is prepared to give them employment. They do that for three or four months and sometimes five or six months of the year, and the sole reason is that they are living on uneconomic holdings. I should like to emphasise again that I honestly think the Land Commission should examine the problem and try to find a solution. Those people should be moved to economic holdings where they can maintain themselves and their families.

Another question I run into very often is that when land is taken by the Forestry section, very often, we find small farmers who would be prepared to accept a portion of the land, if it were divided among them, but some official of the Department goes down and investigates and says it is not good land for dividing. With all due respect to every official, surely the person who knows whether that land will suit him is the man looking for it. He is farming an uneconomic holding and he is told the land beside him which the Department have taken over is to be planted—land which he would work, if it were given to him. Since I became a member of this House, I have gone to the Department of Lands to inquire about two cases, both of which are under investigation. I hope and believe the Minister will give land to those people.

People in my constituency, which is a mountainous area, still believe that when they sell land to the Land Commission, they cannot receive payment other than in land bonds. If that is the position, it is time the Minister amended it. People who sell land to the Land Commission should be paid in hard cash, £ s. d., if they so desire.

Mr. O'Connor

Listening to the suggestions made during the course of this debate, I cannot find myself in agreement with many of them. The main question seems to be centred around the size of an economic holding. If we were to take all the land from the bigger farms and try to level up all the small holdings, we would end with a completely uneconomic industry. The old estimated measure of an economic holding was 30 acres. Today many people argue it is 50 acres. I do not agree. I have seen small holders in my area, people with 10 or 15 acres, making an exceptionally good living.

If we were to make an assessment of the productivity of the entire country, I think we would find that the small holders, per unit of valuation, are producing far more than the big farmers with 100 or 200 acres. Many years ago, we had a population of 8,000,000, and a large part of our people lived in the congested areas. Those areas were denuded and the population was reduced by half. At that time, people lived on those lands and there is evidence today of their vast trading activities. There are a large number of piers and quays in the harbours of Kerry which show that large quantities of grain and other materials were moved out. With the changing way of life, with the horse succeeded by the train and other modes of transport, the living of those people was affected. For a long number of years, yellow meal saved the situation, and they also produced vast quantities of eggs, pigs and other agricultural produce which kept them going. Before the war, yellow meal was hit on the head and was no longer economic.

I still believe that we can help those people, if we make a sincere attempt to understand the issues involved and if all sections of the Department cooperate in an effort to solve their problems. Every scheme devised to help agriculture is not of the same value but the one man who should be helped is the small farmer. A magnificent effort is being made to try to improve the existing houses and vast strides are being made. There is clear evidence of that in the Dingle Gaeltacht where the people are helped by the Department of the Gaeltacht. Practically the entire housing position is solved and bathrooms and water schemes are being provided. That is evidence of the forward outlook of our people. They are looking forward, in those congested areas, to our entry to the Common Market. There is an awareness and a hope that there is a future if they can be helped and directed and if they can get leadership and direction from this House.

One of the schemes that could help them is land reclamation. We have great difficulty in getting grants for our smallholders who are prepared to reclaim their land. Kerry is a large county and yet we have only £800,000 for a very large number of people while less than half that number of people in County Offaly get £1,200,000 in grants. The schemes that are operating are not helping the small men who should be the first to be helped because they produce more per unit. The man with the valuation of £100 will not produce as much as he can because his farm is big enough to keep him without any great effort on his part but the man with the valuation of £5 or £10 will produce as much as he can and work as hard as he can to exist and to maintain his family.

To help these people, the drainage of small rivers and streams is essential. Some form of drainage other than arterial schemes which take a long time, is needed in order to drain marsh land and lower mountain land. It would also help if a better type of grant and larger loans were available for building and reconstruction of houses. The Gaeltacht people get a grant of up to £450 for a new house, while a man beside them who has no Irish can get a grant of £225. Loans should be available at about two and a half per cent. which would make re-payment easy.

Those living in the congested areas should also get loans for the development of their small holdings since they do not get much benefit from the overall agricultural subsidies which are available. Such loans would help them to get into the type of production for which their holdings are suitable. The Land Commission should also take over and divide any large estates that come on the market. These should not be allowed to fall into the hands of foreigners. The Land Commission should take them over at their ordinary agricultural value for the benefit of people who are anxious to leave the congested districts and go up country.

Many people from Kerry have rented large farms up country for grazing. If people are not prepared to work a large holding in the way it should be worked and are able to get sufficient income to keep them by setting it for grazing there is a good case for taking over such land. If the owners of these lands have not sufficient interest and love for the land the Land Commission should take them over and divide them for the benefit of people who have the interest of the land at heart.

There is a definite progressive outlook among our small holders. There was fierce resentment amongst them of statements made in this House earlier in the year that many of them were living in hovels and in a state of depression. Such is not the case. People in the congested areas are a fiercely proud people. They are not looking for charity or soft living. They are only looking for a fair break, for a chance to live in this country of ours. I deny that there is any feeling of depression or hopelessness amongst them. Instead, they are looking forward to a brighter future.

There has always been emigration from these areas but now the people have great confidence in the future and, if they get the necessary leadership from this House, it should be within the competence of Irishmen to find a solution for their problems. We have a great people, a great climate and a great country. If we have the right spirit to direct the people we can get the best out of them as we face entry to the Common Market.

Mr. P. Brennan

The chief complaint I have against the Land Commission is the delay that takes place from the time of the acquisition of land to its being made available to local congests or migrants. I appreciate the difficulties confronting the officials in the Department of Lands to ensure that everyone is treated fairly, but nevertheless the delay is unduly long and some effort should be made to speed up this aspect of the matter. I have a glaring example of an estate purchased in my constituency some few years ago. It was set that year and again in 1961, but up to the present it has not been put up for auction this year. The people on the four or five uneconomic holdings in the locality who have been expecting these lands have been denied them up to now. The farm in question is in the region of 200 acres in County Wicklow, near the Carlow border, and it would realise anything up to £20 an acre for conacre for tillage purposes.

I do not know whether the officials concerned realise what an additional 15 or 20 acres would mean to a man in that locality. Anyone who qualifies must necessarily be a small farmer and if he were to get a present of an additional 15 acres in the spring of this year, and could sow an extra five or six acres of wheat, the net result would be that his income would go up by £300 or £400. That is a lot of money to a small farmer. The farmers concerned were expecting this farm to be divided and had geared themselves for it. Actually, one of them, who I believe comes from County Carlow, had to return a four-acre beet contract because the Land Commission officials kept his file in some office and did nothing about it.

The delay in these cases is far too great and while I appreciate the problems of the inspectors, nevertheless it should have been known in January or February of this year that this land could be divided and there is no reason why it should not have been or why the local people should not have got the land and been able to benefit from it this year. I also want to raise the case of the balance of estates left with perhaps a large house and a farm of 50, 60 or 70 acres. There is one such estate in my locality and it has been in the hands of the Land Commission for six or seven years. I understand that a number of people were brought over from the west of Ireland who were not interested in it.

I do not understand why the Land Commission do not, in such a case, see whether some rearrangement could not be done. When they have had time to satisfy themselves that no one in the congested districts will take this farm, they should look in some other direction. I have no doubt they would get a farmer with a reasonably sized farm who would be improving his lot, in so far as he would be getting more land, and at the same time, would be making a holding available for the relief of congestion in that part of Wicklow.

In recent years, a number of migrants have been given holdings in County Wicklow. The people in the area welcomed them with open arms. As a matter of fact, they felt sorry for them because the Land Commission decided to take these people from the west of Ireland and plant them on farms in County Wicklow in the middle of April, without any means of tilling their lands. Were it not for the fact that the local people came to their assistance and ploughed the land and sowed seeds, they would have had no tillage. If these people are being moved from the west, it is not unreasonable to expect the Land Commission to arrange that their transfer will take place in January or February, to afford them an opportunity to get acquainted with the locality and become geared to preparing the lands for the following year by way of tillage and so on.

Some of the people who come into the eastern part of the country find themselves growing wheat for the first time. As a matter of fact, some of the people who came to my part never saw wheat until they arrived in Wicklow. It is very unfair to transfer these people at a time of year when they should be getting their lands ready for sowing seed, particularly corn. As I said, there is no reason why the transfer could not be arranged for a more suitable period. Again, in regard to the holdings which migrants have received, there are in my constituency 55 holdings which I consider good holdings but for some reason, the Land Commission decided to sink a hand pump in each holding. It so happened that most of the people had built on the lowest part of their farms with the result that most of the land had no water at all. In the year 1962, when we have the Department of Local Government trying to get local authorities to provide water for the homes in rural Ireland, we have another Department going back a hundred years by the erection of handpumps. I see no reason why, when you have a comprehensive scheme of that nature, a proper water supply should not be provided as cheaply as, if not more cheaply than what it would cost to sink individual wells. These pumps are useless except in so far as you can fill a bucket of water from them. From the point of view of watering stock, they are completely useless. An electric pump would supply a whole farm with water at a very reasonable charge, but I see that the Minister intends to continue this scheme of sinking hand pumps. We in the local authorities are pushing the scheme for rural water supplies and this Department should give a lead in that respect.

I also want to refer to the question of access roads to estates. A road is constructed by the Land Commission by removing the sod and throwing a couple of lorry loads of gravel on to it. After three or four years, the local authorities are asked to take over the road and probably have to spend £1,000 per mile to put it into proper repair. I see no reason why the Land Commission should not do that, in the first instance, and then if they put it to the local authority, they would be only too happy to take it over. The accommodation roads to some holdings disappear in the first year and then they are nobody's baby until three or four years afterwards when, through local agitation, the matter is put to the county council with a view to getting them to take them over.

I wish the Minister well in his efforts to acquire more land and to create more shall economic units. I do not mind whether the people concerned are migrants or local people. All I am concerned with is that the job is done properly. A water supply is essential in every house. The water should be put on tap inside the houses. When a local man gets a farm it should be made available to him in the course of a year and it should be given to him when it is of the most value. The same applies as far as migrants are concerned.

Mr. Leneghan

I wish to congratulate the Minister on his enlightened attitude towards his Department and especially on his attitude to what up to now has been anachronistically known as the Land Commission. This body badly wanted wakening up. I hope they are taking heed of the alarm because it is past time that the bell should ring. Up to now, I am afraid the attitude adopted was similar to that which operated 40 years ago. There has been a tremendous improvement since the present Minister took over. I am glad that to a great extent he eliminated the old methods and I hope he will continue to do so.

It appears rather foolish to take a man out of a tiny holding of three or four acres—he probably never used a plough or agricultural machinery— and stick him in a big farm in the midlands where, if he is to exist at all, he must use modern methods. Let me inform the Minister that one of the reasons why people are not inclined to leave the congested areas is that they are afraid to go. On the other hand, they would very readily interchange within their own areas. What should be done is something like this: A canvass should be made of the tenants and those who would not move to the midlands should be asked to go to holdings in their own areas. The people in the larger holdings in those areas would be only too willing to move to the midlands.

I know that immediately I will be confronted by the officials with the problems of registration, vesting and all the rest but surely these are not insurmountable problems? There must be some way of dealing with them. We know of people who found themselves in an awkward position. They refused to go to the midlands. On the other hand, I am aware that these people would accept holdings in their own areas. I would ask the Minister to change completely his attitude in regard to exchange holding transfers. Otherwise major problems will remain unsolved for many years to come. It would be much better for the country generally if the people in the west of Ireland who have shown an aptitude for farming and have made good use of the farms there got the first opportunity of going to the midlands. If that were done many of our problems would be solved. I have no doubt that if that were done within five years a change would take place in the west of Ireland.

When the rearrangement of an estate is carried out in the west the people should be better off. They should be more content and happier than before. Is that the case? By no means. It usually happens, whenever the Land Commission enters into an area in my constituency that there is simply a local civil war carried on for years afterwards. There is just open murder. Neighbour turns against neighbour and the lands are left there unfenced and practically useless. I am not blaming the Minister for this. I honestly believe that in many cases his Department would not be aware of it at all.

The trouble is often caused by local officials of the Land Commission. I am entirely on the side of the officials as a body. It is unfortunate that a great amount of glaring and unnecessary trouble is caused. When you see gentlemen going out of their way to turn whole communities against the Government it is time to call a halt. It is a sorry state of affairs when officials leave themselves open to accusations of what is nothing less than bribery.

Some of these local officials—the smaller they are the worse they are— become dictatorial in their attitude towards ordinary tenants. I am perfectly well aware that, although this has been going on, people have not come into this House to make it known simply because in many instances they have benefited themselves as a result of the activities of these local officials. It is notorious in my area that a Land Commission official gave a house site to a TD. He was not a member of the Fianna Fáil Party either. Needless to say, the house has not been built.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It is not in order to make charges against official in this House who are unable to reply.

Mr. Leneghan

Very well. I am sorry.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

I think it is a disgraceful charge to make.

Mr. Leneghan

Look at the man who is talking about disgrace.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted, and 20 Members being present,

Mr. Leneghan

Getting away from officials, I should like to point out the necessity for some competent, effective organisation to which tenants could put their case and have it dealt with in cases of quarrels with local officials. After all, this is a very big, serious problem and if the tenants are left in the situation where they feel things are biassed, either politically or otherwise, it makes it much more difficult to deal with their affairs. Very often, they find that when their holdings are rearranged and fenced, they are much worse off than they were before they were touched at all.

One of the things I cannot understand about Land Commission activities is that they fence three sides of the field but not the other. I do not know if the people responsible for that have been dealing with the educated type of cattle we find roaming the streets of Dublin and who know nothing about conditions in the West of Ireland. They leave one side of the field open to the world. That does not make any sense and it is causing trouble throughout Mayo and Connacht. The Minister should look into it and see that when a farm is finished and handed over to the tenant, before the tenant signs the document, he should have a farm properly fenced, drained and provided with proper roads. I would point out that I am talking about farms in the west of Ireland, not those to which people from the west have been transferred.

Very often, we find that as a result of Land Commission activities, trespasses have increased a hundred-fold. The entrance of the Land Commission into some areas must be a tremendous boon for solicitors because they often make fortunes afterwards out of the litigation that arises. When a man is given a farm I do not think he cribs about the annual payments he is asked to make and whatever the cost, the farm should be arranged properly, even if it means the man is assessed with extra charges. That would be much preferable to leaving a community in civil war.

I am not conversant with the report on the western farms because I have not had time to read it, but I wonder how many people from the west participated in the deliberations which lead to the report. It may be like the man who is an expert on bogs who is probably a man who has never lived on one for many years. The further he gets away from it, the more expert he becomes and the more information he is able to dish out. I have always great suspicion of these reports because I am perfectly certain that if some of the people responsible for them were handed the very same facilities as they hand to the people in the west of Ireland, they would not know what to do. When a report is to be compiled on western farms, the views of the local people should be accepted and not those of some crank politicians or eccentrics from other parts of the country. It is absolutely essential that something should be done to improve the position of western farmers, since every tenant retained in the west, or anywhere else for that matter, is a tremendous asset to the country. Anything that can be done should be done as rapidly as possible to try to keep farmers on the land. I would suggest it should not any longer be necessary for a man to hand out before he gets land from the Land Commission.

It would be nonsensical to suggest that every farmer's son, because he is a farmer's son, should be given a farm by the Land Commission. It would be tantamount to suggesting that every shopkeeper's son, because he is a shopkeeper's son, should be handed a shop by some other State body. That does not make any sense, although some Deputies came very near to making such a suggestion today. However, where it can be shown that a young man has an aptitude for the operation of a farm, facilities for obtaining that land at a reasonable price should be given to him. I emphasise "reasonable" because value of land has gone sky high.

On this matter, I dispute what some gentlemen tell us about the terribly bad times that exist. If you travel along the roads of this country, the thousands of cattle in the fields and the hundreds of motor cars in which farmers drive round to count them are no indication that they are doing as badly as some people here would have us believe. Unfortunately, the result of that is that the price of land has gone sky high, despite our being told by auctioneers that it has not. It has reached such a position that unless the Land Commission can do something about it, any ordinary person who wants land cannot buy it.

Another of the troubles with regard to the Land Commission—I presume this affects most parts of the country —is a divergence of opinion between tenants in cases where the Land Commission have decided to carry out rearrangement. It often happens that an entire countryside is held to ransom for years because one farmer fails to agree with his neighbours. It is time some form of legislation were introduced to put an end to that. I suggest that what should happen is that where a majority of tenants agree with a certain proposition, that proposition should go through, despite opposition to it. This kind of thing has held up land division in the west for years. It has caused very considerable unnecessary trouble and it will continue to do so, unless some steps are taken to alter it. Surely it would be a simple matter to go to the farmers concerned and have a vote taken among those interested in a rearrangement programme in a particular area and accept the wishes of the majority? If it became known that was the law and that it was to be enforced, then much of the trouble we find at present would disappear.

Another thing I cannot understand is that in an area where the Land Commission take over land right in the middle of a bog and distribute it, they usually fail to provide bogs for the people. I often wonder if local vested interests have not a hand in this game. It is very unfair if one man can have a bog for 7/- or 8/- a year and another has to pay £5. The trouble is not due to lack of bog. It would be very easy to acquire large tracts of bog and make roads through them.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted, and 20 Members being present,

Mr. Leneghan

Bog distribution is just as important as land distribution, and the Minister should investigate as soon as possible the position with regard to bogs in the west. Some people are making money out of them by charging £5 or £6. The Minister should see to it that the people living in the middle of the bog, as it were, should have their bog at a reasonable price.

I was glad to hear the Minister announce that a more modern type of house is to be made available by the Land Commission. For many years the type of house available was like that which Noah left behind him when he went into the Arc. It was a shocking state of affairs that human beings should have been given houses without any facilities whatsoever. Yet that was the position that obtained down through the years. Tenants of local authority houses expect to have water and sewerage, and surely the ordinary man in the country is entitled to the same facilities as the local authority tenant? The cost of providing these amenities would not be prohibitive. It is completely wrong to provide tenants in the west with an antediluvian type of house. It is all right to say the design is being changed but the design is not everything. The house should be handed over fully serviced and should have sewerage and water. At this stage of our development, I do not think that is asking too much.

My final point will probably show a viewpoint different from that of most other Deputies. It has been stated here that foreigners are coming in here, acquiring land ad lib and doing whatever they like. If any Deputy can find for us a foreigner who wishes to buy land, we shall be only too delighted to have him. The accusations made here were utterly fantastic and are merely fairy tales. There was a tremendous row in the west last year about what was called land, but it was called land purely and simply for political reasons. This row was not started by the Government. A number of people trying to cash in started this racket of calling meetings and so on. That land had been there for thousands of years and there was not a word about it. There would not have been a word about it if there had not been an election pending and a certain crowd wished to cash in on it. However, I think they got their answer.

The general opinion in the west of Ireland is that the occupiers of poorer land would be willing and anxious to sell large tracts of land to foreigners for development of any description. If people with money buy these lands, which have not been used for generations, local employment would be provided. Surely it is a much better idea that our boys and girls should be employed locally by foreigners than that they should have to cross the water to work for foreigners, as has been happening for the last two centuries? There is no use in people hoodwinking themselves. The only reason why people come in here shedding crocodile tears about what is being done by the Germans or anybody else is probably that they themselves did not get the sale of these lands. That is the only way I can look at it. There is not one iota of honesty or truth in what has been said. As I said, if anybody here in the auctioneering or any other business can find a foreigner prepared to buy land in my part of the country, I would be delighted to see him collect his five per cent. and I would help him to get it. For every man with money brought into that area, a certain proportion of the population will be retained there doing some kind of work. We will welcome these people at any time so long as they do not seek to walk over us. If I know the spirit of west Mayo they will not be allowed to walk over us no matter how much land they buy.

Minister for Lands (Mr. Moran)

I should like first to welcome the expression of views of Deputies, in so far as I received them, on the various proposals which have been made. I thought perhaps I might have got a more candid expression of opinion on the problem that confronts us in regard to western small farms. It is a very complex problem not understood by many people outside the west. At all events, in so far as the debate has gone, it has been quite helpful to me in many respects.

To start off with the activities of the Land Commission, during the past year record figures were achieved in practically all fields. It is only in the migrant field that impressive figures were not achieved, and the position has cured itself within the months that have elapsed since 31st March. It is a matter over which I had no control. In dealing with the migration programme it is very important that the Land Commission should have a selection of holdings available. Contrary to general belief, migrants do not want to come to counties like Meath, Kildare and Wicklow. In this field we are dealing with human beings. Particularly if a man is going on towards middle age, it is very difficult to get him pull up his roots from the place where he, his father and his grandfather were born and reared.

At a recent conference in my Department, this problem was discussed and it was refreshing for me, coming from the west, to hear one of my senior inspectors say that the people in Galway did not like to give up the social life they had with their neighbours there and be sent to backward places like Kildare, Meath and Wicklow. That is largely true. There is also the position of older people who, as they say in the west, want to be "buried with their own". There is the position of families with one or two members, possibly, having local employment which they might not get where they are going. You have also the question of land utilisation and the type of farming they are used to. Some people in the west are used to running sheep on the large mountainous areas we have there and to having their bog or turf near their homes. These people take all these factors into consideration when they are inspecting new holdings and it is hard to persuade them to accept the new picture. Perhaps it looks attractive on paper to have a holding that is valued by present-day standards at £3,500 to £4,500 with new buildings to give to one of these people coming from uneconomic holdings but all these other factors, and particularly the human factors, enter into the picture.

For instance, where you have a holding of not-so-good land but perhaps with some outlet to a mountain from it, some of these people are inclined to accept that more than land of better quality. That is why I feel that if we are to get ahead with this job, it is essential to create a pool as soon as possible of 200 or 300 holdings so that migrants will have a choice. If we had that, I am satised our percentage of failures in getting migrants to come would be much smaller than it is at present.

To relieve congestion in the west, it is essential to step up the migration programme and for that purpose, it is essential to take some of the powers I suggested in my opening speech. It is completely illogical to suggest that we should increase the number of our migrants' holdings and intensify the Land Commission's work, without giving the Commission the enabling power to achieve that objective, the enabling power to acquire sufficient land to provide for these new holdings and provide for the intensified migration programme to which I have referred. It is useless to talk about the three Fs, particularly the free sale one, if we are to achieve that objective. Certainly, in congested areas, to begin with, in my view, it is essential that the Land Commission should have power to approve of purchasers of land and to be aware of the land coming on the market there. I can see no other way of doing that except the way I have suggested.

This power, as I have pointed out, is there already, the power over the selling of portion of the holding under subdivision. The Land Commission, in that instance, approves of the purchaser and the vendor must get the consent of the Land Commission to the sale. That was true—there is some doubt legally about it—in the case of what we call yearly tenancies. The consent of the Land Commission is always sought for the sale of a yearly tenancy and that is still the practice, and where you have these intense pockets of congestion, it is essential that there should be this power for the Land Commission to know, first, that land is coming on the market and, secondly, to approve of the purchase so as to prevent the agglomeration of land in the hands of individuals whose livelihood is not dependent on land. The only way I can see of doing that effectively is to provide that the Land Commission's consent will be necessary for the sale of lands in these congested areas.

What I have suggested to the House in dealing with congestion is that the Land Commission should have power to schedule pockets of congestion. That does not mean power to schedule them solely in congested areas: they would have power, according to the suggestion made by me, to specify an area anywhere in the country where there was congestion and take steps to enable them, under my suggestion, to relieve that pocket of congestion. It may well be that ultimately this power would save the State money because in some of these counties where congestion is not intense, it would be possible for the Land Commission to schedule the congested pockets and give the people there this help to solve their own congestion, by one or two of them going out and buying holdings in their own areas and leaving the land they have available for the relief of their neighbours.

Unless something like that is done quickly, it is my conviction that emigration will solve this problem for us. I feel there is no great point in talking about people turning keys in doors of houses on little farms of £5 valuation. They must do it because the unit is so small that they cannot possibly exist there in these times. They are not prepared, as I said earlier, to accept the standard of living their fathers and grandfathers were prepared to accept. That is why I feel, at this stage, that a complete reassessment of the whole land pattern must be made and we must forget about subsistence farming and at least provide a unit large enough to enable these people to make a living. Otherwise, you will have them turning the key in the door and leaving these small patches and certainly I would be the last to blame them.

A suggestion that was made on the housing side of the problem to supplement the Local Government grant will be considered by me. We made a change some two years ago whereby £200 of an advance could be given to Land Commission annuity payers as building assistance. It may be that with the change in the value of money, that figure must be reviewed. The suggestions that have been made in the House in this connection will be examined.

One of the difficulties my Department has in the east is in the construction of houses, particularly in the past year or two. For some reason, it appears contractors are not now greatly concerned about Land Commission contracts. Perhaps they are too busy otherwise, but if we are to go ahead with an intensified migration programme, it will be necessary to gear the Land Commission to do that by building up an organisation on that side that will be able to provide the necessary housing. As I have said, part of the slowness in the migration scheme last year was due to the fact that buildings were not ready and it is difficult enough to persuade some of these migrants to come from their own countryside, without bringing them to places where houses and sheds are not finished and where there is a generally unfinished look about the farm. On that side also, it will be necessary for the Land Commission to gear itself to meet the housing demand that will arise on these new migrants' holdings.

I do not quite understand Deputy Flanagan's argument this morning in connection with this very much discussed, alleged problem of German invasion here. There is no such thing. Under the law as created through last year's Finance Act, we have factual information about any of these transactions that have taken place. As I said in my opening statement, it is roughly 4,000 acres and, as far as I can see, the law is effective and anything I have seen defective in it will be made effective in the Finance Bill coming before this House one of these days.

Mr. Sweetman

There is nothing about that in the Finance Bill.

Mr. Moran

I am saying that anything I have seen ineffective in the law relating to the purchase of land by aliens will be cured in the Finance Bill that is coming before the House.

Mr. Sweetman

But there is nothing about it in the Finance Bill.

Mr. Moran

The Deputy might wait for an amendment in due course. The position generally is that it is completely incorrect to suggest that there is any company gap in this business. That was cured in the previous Finance Act and it is no longer a way out to purchase through a pre-1947 company and get away with stamp duty, because that modus operandi was used. I have been keeping a very careful watch on this aspect of the problem and no evidence has come to my notice or to that of the Revenue Commissioners that any loop-hole as far as company law is concerned has been found within the law as now provided under the previous Finance Act.

Mr. Sweetman

Why is an amendment being brought in then?

Mr. Moran

If the Deputy will be patient, he will read about it in due course. He may not have thought of a possible way out under the Bill. I believe that those using it could be charged with fraud but it would be easier to deal with it in the way I have in mind.

Mr. Sweetman

I do not agree with the Minister. If it is fraudulent, they should be charged.

Mr. Lenihan

You have never been charged.

Mr. Sweetman

No—because I am not taking the advantage of the provisions that I know other people are taking.

Mr. Moran

They may still be charged. The proposals coming in under the Finance Bill will be retrospective to the date of the previous one.

Mr. Sweetman

I prefer them to be charged.

Mr. Moran

That may occur, too. I prefer a workable law if we can provide it here and I believe we have it now, with this possible exception and that will be dealt with in the Finance Bill. Deputy Flanagan spoke about the creation of a register. A register was created under the Finance Act to which I have referred and we have now a record of every alien who purchases land.

We know the amount and the purpose for which he buys it. As the House is aware, there was a provision in that Act whereby the Minister for Finance can exempt them from the 25 per cent. stamp duty. That was provided for and has been used solely for the purpose of dealing with what I call white elephants, huge old estates that would be of no interest to the Land Commission. It is a very necessary provision. The law is there to deal with that, but outside of that, as I have said, there have been roughly 4,000 acres sold to aliens over ten months and it will take a long time, with allegedly 13 million acres of arable land in this country, for the Germans to wipe us out. I quite accept what Deputy Leneghan has said here, that a ramp was started in connection with this business. It is well known how sensitive our people are about land and, with that in mind an attempt was made to create the impression that there was a new invasion of Ireland. There is nothing further from the truth, as the figures show.

In dealing with Section 27 of the 1950 Land Act, that is, the one under which land is purchased for cash on the open market where it becomes available, we have tried to work this instrument in so far as it is capable of being worked. It is very limited in scope. In many cases, due to the way the Bill was drafted, it is impossible to operate it, but, in so far as it is capable of operation, let me give some figures as to what has been purchased under this Act to which Deputy Flanagan referred—the 1950 Land Act—over the years and the amount of money expended.

In 1956-57, there were 12 holdings purchased with an area of 603 acres, at a cost of £19,228. In 1957-58, there was nothing purchased under this Act, that is, Deputy Sweetman was so concerned with the finances that he stopped his colleague the Minister for Lands from operating that Act during that period.

Mr. Sweetman

The only difficulty about that is that you were in office during that year. The Minister should try again.

Mr. Moran

In 1958-59, there were seven holdings purchased, totalling 418 acres at a cost of £20,740. In 1959-60, 13 holdings were purchased comprising some 1,032 acres at a cost of £49,130. In 1960-61, there were 15 holdings purchased, comprising 1,296 acres at a total expenditure of £75,000. In 1961-62, a new record under this queer instrument, there were 24 holdings purchased, comprising 1,837 acres at a total expenditure of £135,795.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

All thanks to the 1950 Land Act.

Mr. Moran

Therefore, nobody can use these figures to suggest that since this Government came into power, we did not do our utmost to operate this instrument for the acquisition of land purchased for cash in the open market for the relief of congestion. A sum of £135,795 was spent in 1961-62 as against Deputy Sweetman's best in 1956-57 of £19,228. These figures speak for themselves and are the complete answer to the allegations made here by Deputy Flanagan this morning about the alleged efficacy of the 1950 Land Act.

At all events, I am more concerned with the future than with the past. I want to create an atmosphere, in so far as I can, in which people who have land to sell will turn first to the Land Commission. I know that creating that atmosphere will take some effort, but we must change the climate of opinion, and we must give inducements. The 1950 Act is not effective. It is limited in scope since it relates only to intermixed rearrangement or migrants. My view is that there should be a general power in the Land Commission to buy land, when it comes on the open market. That is the goal towards which we must now head.

There has, to some extent, been a change. Solicitors and others do not now regard the Land Commission in the same way as they viewed the operations of that body some years ago. That is a change for the better; but I should like the change to go still further. On the forestry side of my Department, all operations, with very few exceptions, are on a voluntary basis. I hope to live to see the day when auctioneers and land vendors will offer their lands first to the Land Commission. That is devoutly to be desired.

It would save the State a good deal of money since the present procedure is both cumbersome and expensive. In compulsory acquisition proceedings, there has first to be an inspection of the lands. That is followed by publication of the notice in Iris Oifigiúil. An offer is then made. Some slight bargaining starts. The owner rarely, if ever, accepts the offer and the matter ends up with the Appeal Tribunal, with all its attendant costs. Much official time is wasted and any increase or decrease that may be achieved in the fixing of the price is nullified. I hope to see a climate created in which those who have land to sell will regard the Land Commission as their best market. If we succeed in that, we will save the State some considerable expenditure and will also provide a ready market for those who wish to sell their lands.

Some Deputy referred to the advertising of land abroad, while nothing is done about it at home. It amazes me that those who make a song and dance about the alleged German invasion, the leaders or alleged leaders of rural communities, have nothing to say on this issue. Neither have the people on the land. Farmers' organisations can be quite vocal on one aspect of this matter. They are singularly silent when it comes to any suggestion that compulsory powers should be taken to stop this. I believe that suggestion should come from these people. I am quite sure I shall hear a good deal from these people about the suggestions I made this morning for controlling the sale of land. It is no use talking about these issues without being prepared to give the necessary powers to deal with the situation. Unless these people are prepared to act after that fashion, all this talk is just so much hot air. We could go on debating this for the next 20 years. Unless effective power of control is given here, as it is given in other countries, over the sale of land, particularly in the congested areas, we are simply wasting our time and we shall never see an end of the congestion problem.

I had hoped to hear more about land utilisation. I think Deputy T. O'Donnell devoted his mind to it and to the suggestions I made in my opening statement. The viable unit and its utilisation go hand in hand. It is true that a man with 15 acres, who works the land intensively and who has a convenient market for his produce, can make a good living on the land. In other cases, twice his acreage cannot be regarded as a viable unit.

The time has come when we must consider what a viable unit is. We must get away from the old £7, £8 and £10 valuation in the west. In creating new farms, our aim should be to make them such as will give the farmer and his family a living above ordinary subsistence level and which will make it unnecessary for him to seek work outside his farm to supplement his income. Those are the objects on which we should concentrate.

It is essential that we should go ahead with an intensified land acquisition and migration programme. It is the height of absurdity for people to talk about providing land for all landless men. Even if we got the Six Counties, without any people at all, we would still not have enough land. I have been emphasising all the time that we have not enough land to deal with the congestion problem. We have not got the figures from the last census yet. We put some questions in it to get more detailed information of the land structure. There are certainly 60,000 uneconomic holdings of between one and 30 acres. There must be at least 50,000 people living on the land on what Miss Fennell calls "subsistence farming". If new groups are brought in, that will slow up the work and keep us from reaching the objective at which we are aiming.

It may be good politics, but it is utterly unrealistic to say that we can provide for every farmer's son, every cottier, and all the others who have been mentioned here. Even with the Six Counties, we would not have enough land to create viable units for all those alleged to be looking for land. Deputies who talk in the way in which I have described will have to make up their minds as to what we will do. Will we provide a viable unit on which a man can live and rear his family? Will we go along, fooling with the job, and give patches here and there to all and sundry? Because of the particular urgency in this matter now, in view of the new situation with which we are faced in relation to the European Economic Community, we shall have to make up our minds firmly as to what our policy is to be. It is woollyheaded thinking to talk about £5 or £6 valuations.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.

The Dáil adjourned at 5 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 13th June, 1962.