Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 6 Dec 1962

Vol. 198 No. 6

Committee on Finance. - Vote 23—Office of the Minister for Justice (Resumed).

Mr. Cosgrave

There was one matter raised yesterday at Question Time which I should be glad if the Minister would reconsider, that is, the fact that a number of applicants for the Garda who sat for the last examination and who were notified that they passed but who failed to get a sufficiently high mark to qualify them in the first 200, were subsequently notified that they would not be called and that it was open to them to sit again for the examination which it is proposed to hold early next year.

I raise the matter for this reason. As the Minister said, it was clearly stated in the notice announcing the examination that the fact that a person qualified did not necessarily mean he would be called for training; he had to surmount two subsequent hurdles, (1) the oral examination and (2) the medical examination. While that was published in the notice announcing the actual competition, the practice has developed over some years—it may not have always been the practice—that when applicants sat for one of these Garda examinations and were notified that they passed, subsequently on passing the oral Irish and on being of the required medical standard, they were called for some or other course of training, those who passed in the higher places being called first and then those who got lower places in the examination. Although in announcing the examination, the Civil Service Commissioners stated there was no guarantee that a person would be called, even having passed it, nevertheless the impression has been created because of the practice that has developed over a number of years that once a person passed, he might expect, on passing the oral Irish examination and the medical examination, to be called for training as a Garda.

There is a great deal to be said for the reasons the Minister advanced yesterday, that it was very undesirable that a very long list of applicants who sat for an examination should continue to be called, say, for a period of a couple of years and for the future, I would say that should be the attitude. However, notice should have been given in view of the practice which has grown up. It is not fair to say, merely because a notice was published in the Civil Service Commission advertisement announcing the competition that a person would not be called, that that was adequate notice.

In the meantime, some of those who were down the list may have passed other Civil Service examinations or secured employment elsewhere but a great many of those who sat for this examination rightly expected to be called. They are now told they will have an opportunity of sitting again. In the meantime, others may come in and it is possible that some of those who qualified at one examination may not qualify at another. In any event, they will also have to meet the liability of a second stamp in respect of the Civil Service Commissioners. For the future, it could be clearly understood that competitions will be held twice yearly and that only those who reach a certain standard will be selected.

There is a very strong case for reconsidering this question because of the circumstances surrounding a number of these competitions in the past few years. It is reasonable that people should understand and be aware of the circumstances in which they sit for an examination. Provided they comply with the conditions, both from the point of view of reaching the required educational standard in respect of Irish and also the written examination and complying with the medical requirements, they are entitled to expect to be allowed to present themselves and to be selected as members of the Garda.

Mr. Dillon

I want to subscribe entirely to what Deputy Cosgrave has just said. He has stated it so succinctly and exhaustively that it is unnecessary to recapitulate his representations. I urge them on the Minister and I believe that no serious embarrassment would arise if, owing to the ambiguity that surrounds the present situation, this concession were made and a clear indication given that hereafter the Garda examinations will be held for, say, 200 vacancies, that the first 200 candidates will be chosen and the remainder will have to take their chance in any subsequent examination for which they are eligible.

I should like to think the Minister would meet fully the representations made by Deputy Cosgrave but I gather that in any case he intends to meet the suggestion made by Deputy MacEoin, that certainly those who passed the examination on this occasion but did not come amongst the first 200 and who would pass the maximum age before the next examination is held, will be allowed to enter for the next examination by virtue of their having passed this examination recently.

There is one general matter arising in connection with these Garda examinations which I should like to mention. As I understand, the present system is that the candidate sits for the examination, then does an oral in Irish and then undergoes the physical examination. Possibly there are administrative difficulties but it seems to me that the sensible thing to do would be to have the physical examination first.

Mr. Haughey

There is a rough physical examination in the Garda station before acceptance.

Mr. Dillon

I know, but I have had a case, which I am sure the authorities will sympathetically consider and which gives an idea of the difficulties that can arise, of a fellow who did the examination and did very well in it and was then found to be five feet and seven and seven-eights of an inch, in height.

Mr. Haughey

He should do the exercises.

Mr. Dillon

I have no doubt that sympathetic consideration will be given. Imagine the feelings of a fellow who has done an examination and who has taken a high place or, at least, has heard on the grapevine that he has taken a high place, and then discovers that he is half an inch too short.

It seems to me it would not be unreasonable and it would not be impossible administratively at least to measure candidates. Even at the preliminary interview in the Garda station where they propose to fill up their forms, it ought to be possible to measure them and, if they fall below the minimum height, to say that there is no use in filling up the form because, in forwarding the form, the person responsible would have to mark on it that the candidate's height was 5' 7" or 5' 7½", and the application will be promptly rejected. Whether the revelation that the candidate falls-below the minimum height should prevent his being considered at all in the Garda station or whether the Garda officer in the station should be required to insert on the application form the ascertained height when the candidate attends, or not, is a matter of indifference. Some fellows may want their applications to go forward.

Mr. Haughey

They may grow an eighth of an inch by the time the physical examination takes place.

Mr. Dillon

Let the record speak by having the station sergeant or the Garda officer responsible for accepting the application form write on the form the actual height of the applicant. If he increases in height in the meantime and chooses to sit the examination, that is his own problem, but it does seem to me to be a hardship when a fellow sits the examination, does the oral in Irish and then fails on the height test, as opposed to one of physical defect.

Mr. Haughey

The Leader of the Opposition will see that it could be a hardship the other way, if a man were shot down at the preliminary stages who might possibly gain the extra height in the subsequent months.

Mr. Dillon

I see that. I admit that problem. Usually, when one knows all the facts, there are two sides to every story but I think the Minister will see there is a difficulty where a fellow first passes the examination and is full of eager anticipation and confidence that he has made the grade and then discovers that, owing to a difficulty that existed all the time, he never had any prospect of being chosen at all. It is worthy of examination to see whether some eliminating process could not be gone through at the stage of the original application which would avoid that kind of thing happening.

It is nearly true to say that at every second Garda examination I have got one or two of these cases—and I suppose the same is true of practically every other Deputy—of fellows who have passed the examination but who have failed on height. It seems it ought to be possible to avoid that kind of problem arising.

On the general question of law reform and codification, the Minister has introduced a number of Bills. This is not the appropriate time to speak of the desirability of legislation but it is the time to direct the Minister's attention to an important principle associated with the codification of law. Most of these Bills he has been responsible for introducing are in fact codifying Bills, Bills to tidy up the existing law and present it in one instrument rather than making it necessary for people to search through whole series of statutes that have accumulated down through the ages to ascertain one particular aspect of the law. That is a very useful activity but there is always a temptation, when that kind of activity is in hand, to attempt the combination in one Bill of law reform and codification. That attempt is always attended by disaster because something gets overlooked.

I suggest to the Minister that, where it is determined that a particular branch of the law requires codification, the first step is to determine in how far the law requires amendment or reform and to introduce an amending Bill dealing with that particular branch of the law and, that having been done, to bring before Dáil Éireann a codification Bill which can be put through the special machinery we have established in this House for the codification of law, machinery which is quite separate from that which we ordinarily employ for the reform or amendment of the law.

If the course which I now propose were followed, the first step would be to deal with the amendment of the law and we would be all under notice in the House that the Bill under consideration was designed to change the law in certain details or matters of substance. That having been done, the Minister's Department would then prepare a Bill whose sole claim was that it repealed all previous legislation dealing with this particular question and brought all the existing law into one statutory instrument.

The custom is to present that Bill to the House on Second Reading, whence it goes to a Special Committee of the House and the Seanad, with a certificate of the Attorney General that this Bill represents no amendment of the existing law but operates solely to bring the existing law all within one instrument. That is subjected to appropriate examination by a Committee, I think, of both Houses in the light of the Attorney General's certificate and then it is finally enacted by this House and by the Seanad and thereafter becomes a readily accessible and convenient manual of all our statute law relating to that particular question.

I think that has been done exhaustively only once, in connection with the fisheries legislation, which was codified in one large Bill. It took a very long time to do it, for a variety of reasons.

Mr. Haughey

It took three different Parliaments.

Mr. Dillon

It has acquired a history and every time it passed the Committee Stage, we had a general election and eventually people became afraid in case they would precipitate a third election but it finally reached the Statute Book.

Mr. Sweetman

It also nearly killed the members of the Committee. There were 47 meetings.

Mr. Dillon

It was a very arduous task, but when it was done, it was done. Some of us entertained the understandable belief that when we had done that the fishery law would remain as it was for a long period. That turned out to be quite illusory and we found we had to amend it in two or three Acts since then. It is very useful, however, because you can go back to the 1958 Act, or whatever it was, and beyond that nobody need go for the fishery law. I suggest to the Minister that when dealing with matters relating to innkeepers or any one of those codifying measures which he has recently introduced, he should take them in two steps, first, amendment and then, consolidation and codification.

I want to deal with another problem which is really within the ambit of the Minister's discretion. We all talk a lot about juvenile delinquency but the real truth of it is in this country we have every reason to thank Providence that our problem of juvenile delinquency is relatively so small. Compared with the problem with which they are struggling in the United States of America, Great Britain, France, or even Germany or Russia, our problem is relatively trivial but the fact that it is imposes on us all the heavier duty to be vigilant to see we do not follow the same unhappy path as other countries have had to follow through their failure to take precautions in time.

I do not accept the philosophy of certain pious people who think more with their hearts than with their heads that there is no such thing as a bad boy. There can be young persons who require strict discipline to make them conform to the ordinary standards of civilised social life and the family as a rule ought to be able to provide the discipline requisite to bring about whatever degree of reform is necessary. I find it hard to believe that when a child's irregularity of conduct reaches a degree which persuades the Garda Síochána to determine they must bring him before a criminal court, and the stage is reached in the court where the case is determined and he is in his own interests removed from his family circle and committed to an institution for reform, there is not here present some psychiatric fault in the child or in the family which requires investigation, if the best disposition is to be made of the child in question.

We ought to remember in dealing with these cases that we should count our blessings and amongst our blessings I count the Garda Síochána. The Garda Síochána are one of the finest police forces in the world in my experience. That is why, when some of them start giving "lip" to us, it makes me so irritated because one impudent Garda can cause more talk than 1,000 first-class Guards. The real truth is that the Garda Síochána are a first-class force and are essentially a characteristic part of our own people and they are human and understanding. Therefore when a child misbehaves in a public place, so far as my experience goes, the Garda will chase him home to his parents or give him a clip and tell him to behave himself, with great patience and forbearance, and do it repeatedly, before reaching the stage of taking him into a Garda station and charging him. So that one may be pretty certain if a young Guard who is inexperienced whisks a child before an experienced old station sergeant, then in the vast number of cases, unless something grave has occurred, the sergeant gives him a clip and tells him to go home.

Children do not get into the hands of the Guards officially unless they are recidivists and unmanageable, but if they do get charged and are brought before the Children's Court, I cannot imagine that the court, having heard the case, will ordinarily ordain that the child should be taken from the parents' custody unless a situation emerges which suggests that parental control has completely broken down and that there is no use returning the child to the parents and saying: "Now, correct this child and see that he is made behave." So that if a child is committed to Marlboro House on remand, there is evidence, one, that the courts are pretty well clear in their minds that this is a chronically troublesome child, and two, that the district justice is clear in his mind that the parents are not going to do what may be necessary to make things right and that it is necessary to separate the child from them in order to initiate his reform.

It is a terribly grave thing to take a child from his parents and most of us are liable to forget it but if any of us had a child who got into trouble like that and he was brought to the court and we were blandly told that he was going to be taken from us and put into a remand home, it would give us a great shock. But that is what is happening every week in Dublin and elsewhere and we should examine our consciences very carefully when we allow that procedure. I remember when I was a young T.D. in this House, it struck me that we were legislating to put people in jail and by leave of the then Minister for Justice, I visited all of our jails, including what used to be Summerhill and is now Marlboro House. I could not find anything in the jails that shocked me.

I remember Sligo Jail which was then in existence but which has since been closed. It was a very homely establishment inhabited by veterans who came back from time to time and anything less like a jail, except from the outside, it would be difficult to find. I thought the standard of the jails was high. Mountjoy was smelly but I understand that the circumstances were such that it was very hard for it not to be smelly. Portlaoise seemed to be excellent; Limerick was good. I think Cork had been closed then.

Mr. A. Barry

The Cork building is now a university.

Mr. Dillon

Yes. Summerhill was awful. I do not want to go back to those old days but eventually we got Summerhill closed. Here is the snag. Neither Summerhill nor Marlboro House is under the jurisdiction of the Minister for Justice. Both are under the jurisdiction of the Minister for Education. Fortunately there is a joint committee sitting to consider juvenile delinquency and, amongst the things that committee must consider, is the accommodation and procedure at Marlboro House because, through Marlboro House, there must pass practically every juvenile delinquent from the city of Dublin who ultimately becomes the responsibility of the State. I believe that there is the point of selection, the point at which we must determine, probably finally, whether the proper treatment for a juvenile delinquent, or a potential juvenile delinquent, will be provided, or not. Remember, once the child is finally relegated to an industrial school, in our set up, it is highly unlikely that an industrial school can adapt itself to the treatment of one particular child.

These schools must provide a relatively standard treatment to which all the children committed to their care must conform. If a youth is sent to borstal, or a child is sent to the reformatory at Daingean, there is some measure of personal attention, but generally the person committed to Daingean or to borstal gets standard treatment which makes little or no allowance for the idiosyncracies of the individual. It is desirable, and, to my mind, indispensable, that at Marlboro House such facilities should be available to enable us to segregate in good time those children who are themselves neurotic or, what is even much more important, who are themselves normal but are unconsciously reacting to a gravely defective family background where neurosis, sickness or family disruption may be creating a course of conduct in the child which no one but a skilled observer can correctly connect with its true cause.

I am, therefore, urging on the Minister to accept an offer, which I understand will be made to him, for the provision of psychiatric examination of all children committed on remand to Marlboro House. The sort of examination I ask is that each child so committed should, first, be examined by a competent child psychiatrist in the anticipation—in my anticipation, certainly—that he will report, in respect of at least half, that the child is perfectly normal but requires discipline; but I shall not be surprised if, in respect of the other half, the authorities find that competent child psychiatrist to report either that there is a genuine psychiatric defect in the child or that the child is unconsciously reacting to a domestic situation in his own family which explains his aberrant conduct, and that the appropriate remedy for this child's misconduct is not detention or punishment but correction of the family situation which is giving rise to the problem. That, of course, falls within the province of the probation officer of the court.

I have reason to believe that an effort will be made to get the Minister for Justice, via the committee which is examining this question of juvenile delinquency, to provide this psychiatric service voluntarily. I trust, if and when that offer is made to his committee, he will accept it. Some people may ask what is to become of these reports of the psychiatrist when they are made. I think they should be furnished and should be a sine qua non of the return of the child to the court. I think before the district justice of the Children's Court finally disposes of any child who has been on remand in Marlboro House, he should have before him the psychiatric report and should have due regard to it before determining what is appropriate to be done in respect of any child.

It would also give us the additional sense of security that, if somebody subsequently made representations to the Minister that the child was unreasonably detained, that his parents were well able and anxious to look after him, in calling for the appropriate papers to consider the whole question of releasing the child—strangely enough, that again is, I think, a function of the Minister for Education— he would have available to him not only the police report and the observations of the district justice but also the report of a competent child psychiatrist who had examined the child during detention in Marlboro House.

I have never been in Marlboro House—I doubt if I have. I used to visit Summerhill fairly regularly in order to keep up the pressure on the then Minister to get rid of it.

Mr. Haughey

I should like to invite the Deputy to come and see St. Patrick's sometime.

Mr. Dillon

I am very much obliged to the Minister. I used to visit the borstal in Clonmel and, although it was our Government who transferred it to Mountjoy, I have often wondered if we did wisely in doing so. I must accept the Minister's invitation.

Mr. Haughey

We are actually considering whether the site should not be moved out to the outskirts.

Mr. Dillon

I imagine I should find myself in sympathy with the Minister if he took that decision. Borstal is, as the Minister will agree, a special problem of its own. It deals with the adolescent. I am dealing with the question of children and I am not without hope that the representations I am making here will bear fruit.

I am sometimes criticised for being too forbearing and too modest in what I say in this House. I do not share the view that it is necessary to have a dogfight over every topic that arises here. We could make plenty of hay about dogs, and generally haul the Minister over the coals, and jump on him, and have lots of fun. I believe it is better Parliamentary practice, and Parliament works better, when it becomes known that, if the need arises to have a row here, we will have a row, full blast; but, where the necessity does not arise, we do not intend artificially to create one. That may cause frustration to the Minister's father-in-law, but we have educated him in a good many things in the past, and we will try to make a good Parliamentarian of him before we finish and, in the process, perhaps we will train his son-in-law as well.

Mr. MacCarthy

It is a tribute to the high educational standard and fine quality of the candidates for admission to the Garda that almost twice the number required to fill the existing vacancies qualified in the examinations, but it creates a big problem departmentally, I am sure.

Suggestions have been made from the other side of the House regarding a solution of that problem. I am inclined to agree that those who passed the examination, and were also informed of it, should get another chance, and should not be disqualified by any small margin of age which might rule them out before the next examination is held. Those who qualified should at least have an opportunity of sitting again. I would be inclined to support such a proposal. It is discouraging to young men seeking this career, having been informed that they had passed the examination, to be ruled out because of any more or less technical obstacle of that kind.

I would also appeal to the Minister, that until some other arrangements are made, at least on this occasion, those who have been notified that they have qualified should be allowed to sit again. They can improve their knowledge in the meantime by adequate instruction or study. If all those who passed were ultimately to be called, I fancy there would be no examination for two or three years, which would not give ample opportunities to others coming along and seeking admission to the Garda, although their standard of education might be higher than that of those who qualified at the end of the list. This problem will, I am sure, be looked into by the Minister and his advisers, and solved satisfactorily.

Questions of height, and so on, have been raised. I have known cases where people who were deficient in height to the extent of perhaps half an inch or less, were told to take appropriate physical exercises under instructions which were available to them in the FCA in their own areas. After a few months they qualified and were called.

A few cases have also come to my knowledge of candidates who were disqualified by reason of the vision of their two eyes not being completely balanced. Even though the weaker or lazy eye had adequate vision, if the other eye was particularly strong— and although an eminent oculist or eye specialist had certified that the candidate should qualify—he did not qualify by reason of the lack of complete balance in the two eyes. I have known candidates who would not be accepted, even on such a certificate, because one eye was particularly strong, although the weaker eye was quite adequate.

In regard to the physical requirements, I presume that now we have squad cars, and so on, although everyone is anxious to keep up the fine physical standard of the force, some men may qualify for the squad cars, or the office, who would not perhaps make the grade to the same extent as the men on the streets directing traffic and performing such duties. We have a particularly fine type of members of the Force doing that job.

The Minister can be complimented on the arrangements he and the Department have made enabling the younger members of the Force to put their case through their Representative Body for consideration of any grievances they may have, or any other matters they may wish to bring to the notice of the Department for amendment. It should satisfy all concerned that in their particular grade, whether they are officers or men, their problems will receive due and adequate consideration and be heard with sympathy by the Minister, the Department and the Commissioner.

Deputy Dillon mentioned juvenile delinquency and referred to industrial schools. From my knowledge, they are excellent institutions. The students are educated by priests, monks and lay teachers and are selected for various occupations in the trades appropriate to the schools or in agricultural pursuits. There is ample opportunity for observation of their general character and their response to instruction and advice given to them by their instructors. They are doing excellent work indeed.

Taking it all round, since the Minister took office, he has been most assiduous in his work in the Department. One of the most important aspects of good relationship is the approach of the Minister to public relations generally between the officers of the Department and the officers of the Force. That will lead to co-operation and will be creditable all along the line, and it will lead to excellent results generally in the Department of Justice.

Mr. Corish

I want to say straight away that the Minister is to be congratulated, not on any particular item, but on the general manner in which he introduced this Estimate. He appears, to a large extent, to have broken precedent because he did not merely give us a factual picture, as some Ministers are prone to do, taking the headings of the Estimate one by one. I recognise that his speech was a comprehensive review of the administration of the Department and not just a factual picture because he gave his opinion on various aspects of the Department and seemed, in effect, to anticipate many of the points that would be raised.

I should like frankly to congratulate him on the manner in which he dealt with the Estimate. In the circumstances, many questions which I intended to ask have already been answered. I should, however, like to mention a few points for his consideration. There is one matter I raised with him by means of Parliamentary Question in which I think he ought to consider some change. It is the question of the lodgment of moneys belonging to minors in court.

This came to my notice through this case. A sum of £461-10-0 was awarded in compensation to a child of five years. It was invested in British 3½ per cent War Loan stock. It is true that interest was paid to the parents over the years, but at the end of the 16 years, the stock had depreciated to £251-11-3d. That child was certainly a victim of circumstances, and it was little consolation to the child that the money had been invested in accordance with the regulations of the Supreme Court and High Court. It seems there is no safeguard in cases of that kind. If any of us had £461-10s. to invest, we would be much more careful in looking after it over a period of 16 years. As in this case, if we saw a calamitous drop in the value of stock, we would be very careful to take it out of British War Loan stock after a period and invest it elsewhere. It seems to me the court merely invested the money and left it at that. They were content to leave it there until the child reached 21 years of age.

That is not good enough. If the rules require to be changed, they should be changed. If it means a change in legislation, I am sure the Dáil would give the Minister power to correct a situation such as that as quickly as possible. I cannot understand why that money was not invested in the Post Office or some much more profitable investment. I do not know how attractive British War Loan stock is—I do not know anything about it. While one cannot accuse the court of absolute carelessness, a lack of interest seems to have been shown in this case, and I am informed the same regulations of the Supreme Court and High Court govern the investment of moneys in all these cases. While the Minister, by way of reply and private correspondence, tried to be as helpful as he could, he —like the court, I suppose—was confronted with this situation. If it needs to be changed, it should be changed. I trust the Minister will give it further consideration in the immediate future to safeguard the investment of funds awarded in court under the circumstances I have described.

Every time I speak on the Vote for the Department of Justice, I find myself riding a hobby-horse on my own. It is the question of the censorship of films, and I want to give it another canter today. The Minister suggested in reply to a Question I put down in July that if films were marked with an X certificate, that would be an attraction for some people to go and see them. I grant it might be an attraction, but only for a very small percentage of cinema-goers. The Minister or some of his colleagues said in reply to a Parlimentary Question recently that they did not think the British public were any different from us. If the system of having X, A and U certificates is acceptable to the viewing public of Britain, we could well become accustomed to it here.

It would not be right to give the impression that the ordinary form of censorship we have here generally allows in films detrimental to young people, but there are certainly some that have a harmful effect on youngsters here. It has been said that parents should control their children in the matter of the films they attend. To give them all due credit, I think they do that as far as they can. But they cannot study films and titles to such an extent that they can be absolute censors. In any event, there is a censor and a censorship board here whose job it is to censor films. I think they have done a pretty good job and we could further entrust them with the grading of films. The Minister should have another look at this matter, especially in the times in which we live.

The Minister should also consider having television films censored by the existing censorship board. I cannot understand why they are not, because they are films in every sense of the word. Some time ago, I raised a question about a particular film which I thought was distasteful, not to ordinary adults but to young people and especially teenagers. I suggested then that there might be censorship of TV films. The reply I got was that there was a form of censorship in Telefís Éireann. I have nothing derogatory to say about the people who operate Telefís Éireann, but I would suggest they are not competent to censor films in the same manner as the censor and board appointed by the Minister.

There have only been a few films that should not have been shown during the time teenagers would be viewing, but nevertheless there have been some. Many of those films were made in the United States and Great Britain, and we accept that our standards are slightly different from the standards for films in the United States, France and other countries. I honestly think there is a legal obligation on Telefís Éireann to submit these films to the censorship board. I am not absolutely certain, but, in that they are films, they should be subjected to some kind of censorship.

I applaud the interest the Minister appears to be taking in sport in the Garda Síochána. One wonders why sport was allowed to flag so much over the past 15 or 20 years. I well remember the high esteem in which the Garda were held about 20 years ago because of their feats on the athletic and sporting fields. Anything the Minister can do to encourage them to engage in sports of all kinds in a more active way is something in which he should be supported. I would also suggest that he should exploit the Garda Band more. I have said this in respect of Army Bands.

Mr. Haughey

We are planning big things for it.

Mr. Corish

I do not think the Minister referred to that in what I described as his very comprehensive review. I think he could arrange that the Garda band would perform outside the city of Dublin.

Mr. Haughey

We are doing even better than that.

Mr. Corish

I shall be very glad when the Minister sends it to Arklow, Cork, or Wexford——

Mr. Haughey

Better still.

Mr. Corish

The Minister must be going to put them in outer space.

Progress reported: Committee to sit again.