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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 23 Jan 1963

Vol. 199 No. 2

Private Members' Business. - Registration Council (Constitution and Procedure) (Amendment) Rules, 1962: Motion.

I move:

That Dáil Éireann disapproves of the Registration Council (Constitution and Procedure) (Amendment) Rules, 1962.

The Registration Council referred to in the Statutory Order, which is the subject matter of this motion, was established under the provisions of the Intermediate Education (Ireland) Act, 1914. It is a council which is concerned with regulations dealing with secondary teachers.

The object of this motion is to bring to the notice of the Dáil, and it is hoped of the public, what we believe to be the unjustified discourtesy and autocratic treatment experienced by an association of Catholic lay headmasters of secondary schools. It is an association known as the Federation of Irish Secondary Schools. This Order on which the opinion of the Dáil is sought, has the effect of withdrawing from the Registration Council membership of the Federation's nominees. I should, however, at the outset of my remarks give a brief indication of the history, aims and objects of this Federation.

The Federation of Irish Secondary schools was founded about 10 years ago. Its members included between 40 and 50 Catholic secondary schools in this country—virtually all the lay secondary Catholic schools. Its object, as a representative body of headmasters of lay Catholic schools, was principally to foster the growth and improve the quality of secondary education in Ireland. The original title of this Association was that of the Federation of Catholic Lay Secondary Schools. Deputies may be aware of this Association under its present name of the Federation of Irish Secondary Schools by reason of a very important, very full and very experienced study which this Federation published last year with the title Investment in Education. This was a study of the facilities in this country for secondary education. It is a study which, in fact, brought to light facts only half-known and very frequently ignored concerning the totally inadequate system of secondary education we have and the inadequate facilities in many parts of the country for children of school-going age.

This Association, as I said, has concerned itself since its foundation with improving the conditions and the nature of secondary education in this country. As such, it obtained the recognition of the Department about three years ago in that it became a member of the Registration Council. The effect of this Order is to cease that recognition. From the point of view of this Federation the recognition given by membership of the Registration Council is not very important nor do I understand are they greatly concerned whether its members sit on the Registration Council or not but it is concerned to see that, in fact, the Federation and any similar association will be fairly treated by the Minister and his Department and that its motives will not be impugned and its work maligned. It is hoped that the raising in the Dáil of the way in which the Government, the Minister and his Department have treated this Association may have a salutary effect on actions in the future.

This matter was raised in the Dáil on 13th December last when Deputy Byrne and myself asked the Minister the reason why recognition was withdrawn. The Dáil was informed that the recognition was being withdrawn because of the new and misleading title of the Association. It was pointed out, that because the Association had refused to change its name and had indicated it would not, that the name was new and misleading; accordingly recognition could not be given under that name. It is my suggestion that that is not the real reason why recognition was withdrawn. The name of the present Association, "Federation of Irish Secondary Schools" is no more misleading than the names of several other associations whose members at present sit on the Registration Council. I refer to the "Irish Schoolmasters' Association". To those uninitiated in the affairs of secondary education in this country, the name "Irish Schoolmasters' Association" could have a very wide connotation. In fact, the "Irish Schoolmasters' Association" refers only to Protestant schoolmasters. Anybody uninitiated in the affairs of secondary education here might well think that the Catholic Headmasters' Association was an association that embraced all Catholic headmasters. In fact, it is an association solely made up of clerical headmasters. It is quite obvious that anybody versed in the affairs of secondary education in this country would not be in any way misled by the change of title. A number of organisations at the present time have different names and different titles which to the uninitiated may be misleading but which, nonetheless, has not stopped them being recognised by members of the Registration Council. In fact, the reason the Minister gave for the failure to recognise this Association, that its title was new and misleading, is not the real reason.

Before this Association changed its name threats were made against it that recognition would be withdrawn. Long before the Association changed its name at the beginning of last year allegations of discourtesy and irresponsibility were made against it by the Minister in correspondence. It is quite clear that the real reason lies in the strong objection which it has been thought fit to have towards this Association. I believe that the attacks made on the Association—and I think "attack" is the proper word—are completely unjustified and that the real reason why this Association has been refused recognition is the objection that has been taken to the fact that the Federation has been concerning itself actively with secondary education matters in this country; that its actions in this field were regarded as interference in the field of secondary education and that there was suspicion of the efforts made by this Federation to get reform in secondary education, reform which we all know to be urgently necessary.

I think that what I have said is borne out by what the Minister said in the Dáil on 13th December of last year. In Volume 198, No. 9, of the Official Report, Deputies will see that the Minister answered questions and supplementary questions which were raised on this matter. Reference was made in the course of these questions and answers to the report which was published and sent to all Deputies and the public by the Federation last year, Investment in Education. This was the way in which that document was dealt with by the Minister. He said:

Furthermore, it contains so many errors of commission and omission, false deductions and assumptions, and misrepresentations that its circulation internationally can be construed only as an irresponsible attempt to harm the country.

It was suggested by the Minister that portion or all of that report to which I have referred contain these omissions and commissions and that it was an irresponsible attempt to harm this country that motivated its writers in circulating it internationally. These are suggestions impugning the motives of this body of secondary lay headmasters and it is to this imputation that we object. This imputation was against the motives of people who have voluntarily given up their time and who have been prepared to work in the interest of the public for months in order to produce this report.

Nobody works in the interest of the public.

It is a pity the Deputy is so cynical. The Minister said that this group of people were not competent to deal with this subject, that they were people who were studying in their spare time in order to get money for their schools. The imputation made there was that they produced their report for a pecuniary motive, out of a selfish desire to improve their own pockets. Nobody who read the report which was produced with such care and skill would agree with that but, if we are wrong in this, I think the Minister should do more than merely level accusations. I think it is his duty to point out to the public where are the errors of commission and omission in this report, where are the false deductions and assumptions, where are the misrepresentations it contains. If they exist, we should be informed of them.

A good many people have read this report with great concern and a great many people interested in secondary education are concerned with the facts about secondary education in this country. It would be of considerable assistance to all those people, if it were true that the report contained all these errors, that they should be shown up. It is not sufficient for the Minister to make an allegation like that without substantiating it. We feel that for this reason the manner in which the Minister has met the facts set out in the report has not been quite fair.

I should also refer Deputies to the manner in which the Association has been met in the matter of representations made by it to the Minister and his Department. One of the matters of concern to the Federation last year was the fact that an advertisement had appeared in the newspapers to the effect that seven inspectors of secondary schools were to be appointed. No requirement of a minimum period of teaching experience in a secondary school was mentioned and no university qualification was laid down.

The Federation wrote to the Minister concerning the matter. It pointed out that the successful applicants for these posts would play a large part in the administration of Irish secondary education for the next 20 or 30 years and that some minimum period of teaching experience or some university qualification should be designated. The letter added:

Our Committee must request you to reconsider the conditions of appointment of these seven inspectors and our Committee would be glad if you would consider the matter as of urgency and let us have your views at your earliest convenience.

There may or may not be agreement by the Minister with that letter. All they were asking was that the qualifications for the appointment should be designated but the Minister replied in a letter of 18th April that their suggestions could only be regarded as arrogance on their part. It was suggested that they were arrogant when they asked that the matter be considered urgently and that the Minister should reconsider the conditions of appointment. The Association was acting as it thought fit in the public interest and to level a charge of arrogance against it is unjustified.

The Minister was away at that time and the Federation was very concerned with the matter of the appointment of the seven inspectors, perhaps without proper qualifications. They wrote to the Taoiseach about the matter and said that they would not wish to be taken in any way as reflecting on the understanding and courtesy which Dr. Hillery and his predecessor had at all times shown in conversation with the Association. They pointed out that their concern was that there might be such an accumulation of inertia in the matter as would cause grave difficulties for the best of Ministers to get things moving.

Deputies may not agree with that letter. Some may think it is paying too handsome a tribute to the Minister and his predecessors, while others may think that sufficient tribute is not paid to them in it. The Minister's reply was that he objected most strongly as the letter indicated that neither he nor his predecessor was capable of handling the Department. That is not at all the suggestion or the implication to be drawn from the letter but it is an indication of the sort of feeling which has been building up between the Minister and this Association for some considerable time past.

It is regrettable that this state of affairs has arisen. It is to be regretted that a voluntary organisation such as this, concerned with reform in the field of secondary education, should be treated in this manner: but the way in which this association has been treated is a matter upon which this House should comment, and comment adversely. The Minister, in the course of the discussion that took place on the questions asked here on 13th December last, rather paternally suggested that Deputy Byrne and I did not know what we were supporting; a sort of vague implication was left that this Federation had in some way hoodwinked the Deputies who had raised this matter; they were a body which Deputies should not have supported by tabling questions and asking supplementaries.

Deputy Byrne and I both know this association. We know the Federation. We know what we are supporting. This is a body of experienced men concerned to improve education in this country, willing to work in the interests of secondary education, and to make available to the Minister and his Department, and to the public, the benefit of their knowledge, their attitudes and their experience. That is the association we are supporting by raising this matter here this evening.

The issues raised on this motion are not just the Federation and the affairs of the Registration Council. We are concerned to see that any voluntary organisation, be it this one or any other, which takes part in public affairs, can do so without its motives being impugned. We are concerned to see that any voluntary organisation, including this one, may criticise, if necessary, a Government Department without being insulted for doing so. We are concerned to see that any voluntary organisation, including this one, can advocate reform of education, or any branch of government, without being treated contumeliously. That is the reason we have moved that this Order be set aside.

I formally second the motion and reserve my right to speak later in the debate.

Deputy Costello has made his case here, and made it well. That is his metier. I have no doubt that any case can be well made. I do not want to give the impression of having a personal quarrel with any group within the educational system. Neither do I think it appropriate to list what I consider to be the differences which arise between me and any particular group. All the associations dealing with education have from time to time sharp differences with the Minister for Education. Very seldom do these come into the open. Nevertheless, they exist, but differences of opinion would never motivate me in my dealings with an organisation.

We will look to the record now and to the facts of the case. I have no contact with this group, or any other school group, except as Minister. I have no feelings about these groups except my feeling of responsibility to the public. I am, I think, the only person who is responsible to the public and who has to answer here for that responsibility. I doubt if any group, large or small, can say that they are responsible to the extent that I am. It is my responsibility to the public which motivates me in any action I take.

This school association, entitled the Federation of Catholic Lay Secondary Schools, was recognised in 1958 by the then Minister for Education as an association for the purpose of the normal negotiations which take place between my Department and secondary school associations. In 1959, following on that recognition, the group was admitted to membership of the Secondary Teachers Registration Council. Last year, when this group, one out of some seven or eight, had endeavoured unsuccessfully to get other groups to join with them in a federation of the associations representing secondary school owners, it decided to take to itself the title of "Federation of Irish Secondary Schools." It did not succeed in getting any of the other groups to join in this. As one group out of seven or eight, it arrogated to itself this title. It represents about one-tenth of the secondary schools, about one-twentieth in terms of student numbers.

There could be no question of my recognising an association of that size under a misleading title, and this certainly was a misleading title. It was obvious to me during the debate on the Estimates that many Deputies thought that this group represented all the secondary school associations. As far as memory serves me, many Deputies seemed to think that it represented even the secondary school teachers. There could be no question of my recognising this Federation under such a misleading title.

When I made it clear in a letter to this group that I would not recognise them under the title "Federation of Irish Secondary Schools," they purported to withdraw themselves from recognition. I might mention that all the major secondary school associations object quite strongly to the Federation purporting to be the Federation of Irish Secondary Schools. That is the reason I withdrew recognition. This title is misleading. It is unacceptable to me and my responsibility to the public demands that I do not recognise this group under a misleading title.

The questions Deputy Byrne asked before Christmas were so arranged that those relating to my withdrawal of recognition were down side by side with the questions relating to a document purporting to be a study of investment in education in Ireland. Deputy Costello, and others in the public press, have associated the withdrawal of recognition with the publication of this document. The fact is that I had notified the Association before the publication of the document of my intention not to recognise it.

Is it not true that the Minister had a preliminary letter enclosing a preliminary draft of the document of 6th April, before he wrote on 18th April indicating that he was going to withdraw?

I think that is not true.

I think it is true to say it was not published until after recognition. The point I am making is that a draft was sent to the Minister before the question of withdrawal was raised again by the Minister.

I am answering this on my feet. This type of pressure and all the time pushing one side of the case is difficult to handle. I just cannot remember at this moment what letters came and went. As far as I can say, what Deputy Costello thinks is not true.

If it were not true, the allegation would not be made.

In dealing with this document again, I am running into the danger of confusing the reason why I withdrew recognition from the Association. I refused to recognise this Association under the misleading title and not because of the publication of any document. Perhaps now I can go on to say something about the document and the attempt to link it with this withdrawal. An attempt has been made to link the two together and I should like to deal with that. Regarding this document, as I said, the people were not competent to do this study. This is not meant to represent them as incompetent in their own spheres, nor would I intend it to mean that I have no respect for their energy and enthusiasm. A study of the economics of education is quite a big task and, as I told Deputies before, we have, in association with OECD, a study group of economists and statisticians doing this work at the moment. I think economists and statisticians are the competent people to deal with investment in education.

The group was, of course, set up for this report.

This is continuous publicity on behalf of this Association. I do not want to seem to quarrel with them. The study group is of OECD origin and had taken origin before the publication of the association's document. I think I referred to this at Question Time once before. I do not want to make too little of the document but there are errors of fact in it. Deputy Costello asks for some of the facts. It is not easy to give them in such a way that people will understand them. In arriving at the cost, they were dealing with the money made available to secondary schools and money available for vocational schools. In reckoning cost, they took an hourly cost for part-time students in a vocational school as being the same as an hourly cost for a full-time day pupil. Anybody with any knowledge of vocational schools will realise that because of the technical nature of the classes and other considerations, the cost per hour of educating a part-time pupil is much higher than that for a full-time pupil. In making the calculation of cost per pupil in secondary and vocational schools, they divided the sum allowed for such education by the total enrolment in secondary schools, but, in vocational schools, by the average attendance. This would give a figure which would not lend itself to comparison.

In Table 1 of the document, which seemed to impress many people they quoted figures for the 15 to 19 age group and expressed them as a ratio of children who were mainly in the 11 to 15 years group. This is quite wrong. People of the 11 to 15 age group cannot be put into the 15 to 19 age group. The result was that in the table for England and Wales a ratio of 88 was shown. The value of that information can be judged by Deputies when I tell them that the present percentage of the 15 to 16 age group, for all types of schools in England and Wales, is about 30. The corresponding percentage here is around 50. I do not want to go into too much detail on this document. It required study here by educationists and statisticians and it took a lot of time as it contains a lot of figures and was quite misleading.

The only thing I felt strongly about at any time was that this document in the process of showing that secondary schools are not getting as much as vocational schools presented a false picture of education in Ireland. It was sent abroad as if an official document and this is not a fair way of dealing with figures before they are checked. I feel this was an irresponsible act. I did say to Deputy Costello and Deputy Byrne that they do not seem to realise what they are supporting. I do not think the Deputies would like to have a false picture, and one which discredits this country, circulated abroad.

I could say a lot more in dealing with this. I repeat that I will not recognise this Association under a misleading title. To explain any strong feelings I might have had, I would mention that the distribution abroad of a document with many errors of omission, calculation or commission was an act of, to say the least of it, irresponsibility and can do a great deal of harm. The letter stating that I would withdraw recognition was sent on 18th April and their proof was sent on 10th May, not on 16th April. Deputy Costello thought it was sent before my letter went out.

I am instructed that, in fact, the Minister had obtained an indication in some form, by way of preliminary draft, before the letter of 18th April.

I got the letter on 10th May and I wrote in April.

In his concluding remarks, the Minister has made it clear that his real concern about what is now called the Federation of Irish Secondary Schools was due to the publication and circulation of this study Investment in Education in the Republic of Ireland.

I have just said this is not the case and I have said it before.

Notwithstanding this, the Minister has proceeded to discredit the reports.

I was asked by Deputy Costello to give some facts.

The Minister, speaking in the House on the 13th December, made it clear, as he also did a few moments ago, what his real worry about the organisation was when they started circulating this document. In the Official Report, column 1447, the Minister states:

My real worry about this organisation was when they started writing—without authority and without letting anyone know—to European and American organisations showing up this country in a bad light.

The facts show up this country in a bad light. The basic facts in the report cannot be controverted.

They can.

Facts such as those set out at Table 10 of the report make it clear that, out of State funds, we, in this country, spend £6 per inhabitant per year on educational purposes, as compared with twice that sum spent per inhabitant in Northern Ireland and three times that sum spent in Scotland. These are the realities of the Irish educational set-up. There are no grants to build secondary schools, where you can obtain from the State a grant to build a factory, or to erect a pigsty or cow stalls. These fundamental realities cannot be controverted if the Minister were to sit here till Doomsday.

The capitation grant is very much less than half the cost of educating a child in a secondary school. That fact has been shown up in this report and cannot be contradicted. I invite the Minister to take a glance at any table in the report. Appended to each is a footnote in which he will see the source of the statistics set out therein, unimpeachable international sources, publications of the United Nations and of the Council of Europe and, as far as this country is concerned, statistics taken from the annual report of the Minister's Department.

The body presided over by Mr. Lynch, the economist, was set up subsequent to the publication of this document. It appears to me—I do not wish to be discourteous to the Minister when I say this—that the official mind of the Department of Education is that outside interests, members of the public and so on, should keep their mouths shut and leave the formulation of educational policy to those custodians of our national heritage who would choose, if they could, to lay down an educational system completely out of accord with the times we are living in.

There is need for radical reform in our educational system. The public are growing sick and tired of gymkhanas and fashion shows, penny raffles and sixpenny pools, being resorted to for the purpose of financing educational development. If I were to elaborate on that particular line, the Chair would probably restrain me.

How do they pay for it on the other side?

The Minister has not answered Deputy D. Costello's charge that the style and title of the Federation of Irish Secondary Schools is not one whit more misleading than the style and title of three other educational associations which have been recognised by his Department for many years past. We have the Irish Schoolmasters' Association, a title which is not strictly accurate, as it includes in its membership only the headmasters of Protestant secondary schools. The Catholic Headmasters' Association is another title which is not strictly accurate, as it includes only the clerical headmasters of certain Catholic secondary schools. Indeed, most of the recognised associations have titles which a pedant could quibble over.

At this stage in the development of education here, it is not right or proper to quibble about the style or title of any association of teachers or of headmasters. There are far more serious and more urgent problems to be considered in the educational field than the title taken by the Federation of Irish Secondary Schools, a body which, as Deputy D. Costello pointed out, has always been most courteous in its dealings with the Minister, and with the Minister's predecessor, Deputy Lynch. Yet, in reply to their representations last January about the qualifications for extension of secondary schools, the Minister stated that they were dealing with them in an arrogant manner. As I said a few moments ago when Deputies express out of the ordinary views in the educational field, they are told that they are being arrogant and are overstepping the line.

The Minister, if he has not already learned will learn very shortly that there is a mass of seething unrest and discontent amongst parents of this country in regard to the education of their children and in regard to the lack of opportunity. As regards the system of education which we have, it is riddled with class distinctions of one kind or another. In so far as the Federation of Irish Secondary Schools have highlighted some of these anomalies, they have done a very good day's work for which they should be commended and congratulated. I would say this—I would go this far with the Minister—that if there is any criticism which can be made, the major fault is excess of zeal and enthusiasm. The Minister has not at all justified his stand to remove recognition from this Association and in the interest of advancing the cause of education in this country, we in the Fine Gael Party would urge him to review his decision.

Am I entitled to speak on this motion?

I called on Deputy Byrne to conclude.

I thought there was time.

I am sorry; I called on Deputy Byrne to conclude. Is Deputy Costello withdrawing the motion?

I understand the time limit has run out. I am not withdrawing it.

It was not a question of time: nobody else offered.

I mean the limit of time on the motion. I am not withdrawing it.

Question put and declared lost.
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