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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 21 Mar 1963

Vol. 201 No. 2

Committee on Finance. - Motion by Minister for Finance (Resumed).

When I moved to report progress last night, I was referring to the shibboleths which have served for policy in the years gone by, and to the many simple phrases which were offered to the electorate in the belief that adherence to the shibboleths therein enshrined would automatically bring the country to the stage in which all its economic problems would have been solved, and that we would be ushered into a period of embarrassing prosperity. Of course, to those who have lived to judge the efficacy of these shibboleths, and to those who have measured the national economic development against the background of those glib phrases, it is clear that these early pledges have proved to be false promises and to be unreliable guides to setting achievable targets in the matter of economic planning. The country was misled for many years into believing that there were easy passports to prosperity, that we could talk ourselves into wealth and that, with the aid of the printing press, we could provide happiness unsustained by work.

The dust has now settled on all these rather fevered policies and we are now developing a more developed political maturity and are prepared to realise, as the rest of the world has had to realise, that to live we must work and work hard with the limited resources at our disposal in a small country of such limited resources as this one. It may very well be that we may have to work more strenuously and purposefully here as a nation because we have not substantial assets at our disposal. We have none of the gigantic resources of timber and ores found in the Scandinavian countries, none of the ores and coal to be found in many parts of the Continent, none of the oil to be found in Africa and Asia, none of the wool and almost natural methods of breeding and rearing cattle to be found in New Zealand and Australia, and gold and silver are deposits with which we are not very well acquainted in this country.

Our technical skills are less advanced than in any other country in Europe. It is a regrettable thing that those of our people who find it necessary to emigrate to find employment leave this country and the only skills they have are good spines and tough muscles capped with Irish courage. It is with that small technical equipment that they go to find work in Britain and the United States and try to earn a livelihood amongst people who have received technical training on a well planned basis from the time they were capable of absorbing that training.

In this debate, two points of view have been expressed about the bill presented to the House for payment. There have been those who say it is necessary and those who say it is outrageously high and that it imposes heavy additional taxation or foretells the imposition of such taxation. There are those who take the view that in 1963 if you are to maintain modern standards of living and develop the national estate properly, you must necessarily incur this expenditure and provide the State and the community with the requisite resources. In our view, if we demand services for the improvement of the community, for the provision of better education, better social services, more houses, more schools, then it is an inevitable corollary of these demands that the services must be paid for.

If we want all these improvements, then inevitably taxation must be raised to meet the cost of these services. No country in the world has a passport to immunity from taxation if, at the same time, it gets new and substantially additional services. There is no way of avoiding additional taxation in such circumstances. So far as the bill presented to the House is concerned, the Labour Party are prepared, not merely in this Budget, but in any Budget, to vote approval for expenditure so long as that expenditure is directed towards raising the standards of living of the people and the strengthening of the national economy. I see no alternative to that as a policy and I think, therefore, that we display political irresponsibility if, on the one hand, we demand new and substantially improved services and, on the other, imagine that these services can be provided without additional taxation. It cannot be done in our own domestic budgets and it cannot be done in the national Budget. If we want to provide ourselves with better services and with amenities which are commonplace in other countries, then there is no alternative to raising the necessary taxation.

The Deputy who says he is in favour of developments over a wide area, while at the same time withholding his consent to the raising of the necessary taxation to provide them, is attempting to postulate something which makes no sense whatever in a national Parliament. If we look at the expenditure provided for here, we can see that substantial sums of money are being spent in fields of activity in which we would all desire to see more money spent, in the field of social welfare benefits for the poor and weak, in the provision of more education, more houses and schools, in aids to agriculture and in all these fields in which we still lag noticeably behind many other countries in western Europe. If we are to catch up in the struggle with these other countries and are not to be regarded as the poor relation who lives on an outpost in western Europe, then we will have to continue to spend, not merely at the current rate, but even at a higher rate, in order to provide these amenities and attributes of modern civilisation for our people.

I do not complain therefore about the amount raised. Our main desire is to ensure that the money raised will not be used wastefully or extravagantly and that, in the main, the expenditure will be directed in a two-pronged attack: (1) to alleviate as far as possible the hardships imposed on the weakest and most helpless section of the community; and (2) to provide ourselves with resources of return which will enable us to continue to finance the services it is now so necessary to provide.

The modern State cannot adopt the attitude that was characteristic of the State at the beginning of this century. At that time the State looked on indifferently, apparently helplessly, whilst tens of thousands of people lived in appalling slums with squalor and poverty their everyday companions. The State in the early years of this century was not concerned to succour people by insurance or otherwise in the matter of such inevitable risks as sickness, unemployment, widowhood, old age, large families and intermittent employment.

Nor was the State concerned—this city was a living example of it—with the provision of decent houses and the eradication of slums. The provision of work by the State was previously unknown as a means of buttressing a fall in employment. The provision of industry by means of State grants and financial assistance was something which was relatively unknown until the last 25 or 30 years. The building or rebuilding of schools as we now know them was something on which the State spent an infinitesimal amount of its revenue. That policy was carried so far that we saw the miserable shacks that did service for national schools throughtout the country.

In agriculture, the State has found it necessary to intervene with its helping hand by means of grants, subsidies, restrictions on imports that involve very substantial grants to cover these aids, especially towards the reduction of rates and the subsidisation of produce which comes from the land. Expenditure by the State on all these activities was unknown 50 years ago, but more and more expenditure on these activities by the State has been necessary. One has only to survey the developments throughout the world to realise that the State to-day is intervening inevitably in many fields of national activity, and the financial resources of the citizens are being mobilised to help in the expansion of services which are considered to be of benefit to the national economy. In fact—and the demands in this House underline what I say—the State is expected to be the father of all such enterprises and to provide aid and assistance to all new social and industrial developments.

So long as that is the role in which the State is cast, then inevitably the necessary moneys must be found for the purpose of financing these activities. It is because the modern State must do these things here as they are done elsewhere that we support proposals which will lead to developments in different fields of national endeavour and expansion in any field which offers the prospect either of enriching the national estate or giving return to the nation either as a social dividend or a means of expanding the nation's wealth.

How the money should be raised to finance such services is of course a matter which can be discussed on the Budget. Our view is, however, that a Budget should be an instrument of economic policy and should be framed in order to give effect to a definite economic policy. We think, however, in framing Budgets the aim of the Government ought to be to avoid putting heavy taxes on backs which are incapable of supporting such burdens. Taxation ought to be equated to the backs of persons who are capable of carrying such burdens. It is unfair, and it would be particularly unfair if the Government were likely, as the Taoiseach foreshadowed, to embark on a policy of a purchase tax which hit with particular rigour large sections of the community, whose resources were so slender that they were unable to pay the purchase tax except at the price of buying less food or clothing or having less available for the small amenities which help to sweeten life for them.

If there is to be a purchase tax, it ought to be a tax very carefully vetted, and in any case it should be confined to luxury articles, because an indiscriminate purchase tax could represent a wage reduction policy as far as the masses of the workers are concerned. While we in these benches will support any policy calculated to raise the necessary funds to finance necessary activities, at the same time, we will feel perfectly free to oppose the raising of taxation if it has to be raised by putting unsupportable burdens on the backs of people incapable of bearing them.

While I think it is not unreasonable to be dissatisfied that many problems are still with us in one form or another and while it is not unreasonable to be impatient with the slowness of our progress in different fields, nevertheless if one stands and looks back over the activities of the State for the past 40 years, there are good grounds in other directions for being satisfied with the substantial progress made. What we ought to avoid is imagining we are the only country in the world that provides our people with some of the services provided here.

We have to our credit a very good record in the field of housing. Much, as I said, has been done in the past 40 years in the fields of social welfare and industrial development, in the provision of new schools and in the establishment of State enterprises, which has given us such valuable public utilities as the ESB, the sugar company, the airlines, the shipping company, and activities of a useful character in the field of tourism, fishing and the financing of industries by means of a State financial house. All these represent developments on which we are entitled to congratulate ourselves but, whilst we should take pride in what has been achieved, it is nevertheless necessary, if we are to keep our place in the European comity of nations, that we should never rest so long as there are still so many problems with us and that we should continue by every means in our power to find solutions for these problems, believing that the solutions will provide better standards of living for our people.

Some of the speeches made in this debate, notably by Deputy O'Malley and Deputy Lenihan, both Parliamentary Secretaries, appear to indicate that they are perfectly satisfied with all the things that have been done, perfectly satisfied with all the things that are being done, perfectly satisfied that our people are as close to the highest standard of prosperity as they will ever get and, in fact, that we are well ahead of Europe. Deputy O'Malley talked about people with a 48-hour week. The Government put a Bill through, he said, for a 48-hour week. Practically nobody on the Continent of Europe works anything like a 48-hour week, not even in the war-devastated countries. The claim is made that the workers here get holidays with pay. They get holidays with pay all over Europe.

Many of the things which we are trying to provide for our people here are commonplace in other countries but the trouble is that, in our insularity, we imagine we do things which nobody else does. One has only to undertake a little research to find that, in fact, in many respects, particularly in the fields of both wages and social services, we are behind practically every one of the countries associated with the EEC and EFTA. So long as that is the position, we are not entitled to feel satisfied that we have reached journey's end. We are not moving as fast as other European countries. We have still many serious basic and fundamental problems to solve and, so long as they are there, it must be the task of Parliament to direct the Government's activities, whatever Government may be in office, in such manner that solutions will be found for these problems.

What are they? The question of unemployment has been discussed in this debate. What is the real position? It is true that in recent years there has been an increase in industrial employment. The aids to export, which are very substantial, probably unique in the whole of Europe in their extent, have acted as an incentive to exports, and I hope will continue to do so, so long as we are permitted to use these financial aids for the purpose of accelerating industrial development. Whether or not we can continue to use them if we become associated with EEC is, of course, another matter, and there might be another story to be told if we were prevented from using these financial aids as a means of developing industry.

Let us look now at the unemployment situation today. According to the Government's figures, there are 60,000 persons unemployed, and that despite the fact that there has been very substantial emigration every year for the past 40 years. The British figure announced recently indicates that five per cent of the population in London are Irish. What would we think if five per cent of Dublin's population were British? In London alone, five per cent of the population now is Irish. One has only to go to Birmingham, Coventry, Sheffield and Bristol to hear Irish accents in every street of those cities.

Notwithstanding the draw-off which emigration has provided, a draw away from the labour exchange, we still have over 60,000 unemployed. That would be bad, and indeed very serious if it were something that had been caused by a peculiar set of circumstances, which were not going to be long with us. But that is not the case; this problem of unemployment is a permanent problem. It continues with us. Far from providing more jobs in the country, we are providing fewer. In 1955, the total number in employment was 1,181,000. In 1961, the latest date for which we can get any figures, the number had fallen to 1,119,000. In other words, there was a fall of 62,000 in that period, comparing one Government figure with another Government figure, and all this notwithstanding the fact that we had in the meantime very substantial emigration.

I know there will be a disputation as to whether the number of emigrants is 40,000 a year, or 30,000 a year, or 25,000 a year. We need not get down to the precise figures based on our own reckonings and our own calculations. Let us look at the situation as revealed by the 1961 census. That shows that in a period of five years, from 1956 to 1961, 215,000 persons left this country. When one remembers that the total population of County Longford, County Westmeath, County Kildare and County Wicklow is 218,000, one gets a picture of what we have lost in emigration in the five years from 1956 to 1961. We have lost, in fact, the equivalent of the entire population of the Counties Longford, Westmeath, Kildare and Wicklow.

If this were a country bulging with citizens and the problem was one of overcrowding, such as the overcrowding that exists in some parts of Italy, one might understand this emigration; but when one thinks of the small population we have and when one remembers that it is the most virile of our manhood and the most fertile of our womanhood who are leaving, those who create population and thus create wealth, the whole picture is one that must cause grave concern to anybody interested in seeing the problem resolved in a manner which will keep our people at home.

One could certainly never imagine that, control of our own affairs having passed into our hands over 40 years ago, we would still see large numbers of our people emigrating. Nobody imagined that over the intervening period, over 1,000,000 would have left the country, as has happened, as emigrants. There is the problem. We have now reached the stage at which, while emigration may have fallen, it is far too big a problem to be allowed to drift or have applied to it such timid measures as are being applied today. Nobody can deny its seriousness and if a solution can be found or a policy adopted which gives hope of arresting this mass haemorrhage of human beings, I am sure there will be goodwill on all sides of the House in dealing with the problem.

There has been reference to agriculture in this debate and it has been the subject, particularly in recent months, of much public discussion. It is not unreasonable to ask some members of the Government to say what is the agricultural policy of the Government. If an overseas visitor came to me asking me to explain Government agricultural policy, I would have to tell him that I do not know, that it seems to be a deep secret in the breast of the Government. What is the agricultural policy? Can we get a half hour's exposition of it? Where do the Government think they are going in the agricultural sector? I know, and I suppose every member of the House knows, that we have reached the stage when the position of the agricultural worker is worse than it ever was from his standard of living point of view. His money wages may be more than 20 or 25 years ago but when you see how he lives in his own home, you find that today he is the lowest paid worker in the land.

I see nothing on the horizon calculated, if we drift as at present, to give him a better standard of living than he has to-day. He has to contend with such problems as intermittent employment. At the end of the week, he gets the few pounds in wages with which he has to pay rent, keep his wife and children and himself in clothes, buy groceries, school books and meet the thousand and one demands that arise in every home. The life of the agricultural worker in this country is relatively little removed from serfdom. If he were chattelled property of a farmer, he probably would be better fed than by being a so-called independent worker. At least he would be well kept in the same way as the farmer would keep his animals because they serve him and are valuable to him but because he is not even a chattel and has to eke out an existence in any way he can, when and wherever he can get work, he is always on wages inadequate to sustain him in decency or in modest frugality.

What is to be the outcome for the agricultural worker? Why should he stay in the country? Is there any law of the land or of nature which requires a person to stay in this part of the world, living the only life he has in all this misery or poverty, if he can find elsewhere, either in our own cities or abroad, a better living? We have no right to think that he will answer the frothy pleas to agricultural workers to stay here, to sweat and toil here, if we do nothing to raise his standard of living. The plight of the agricultural worker here is worse now than in any other country in Europe and the wages standard is lower. One has only to compare wage standards here with standards in the Six Counties or Britain to see the disparity. What is this country offering agricultural workers? What can such a worker offer himself, his wife and children? Are the children to go through life in the same unending bleakness that has characterised the lives of their father and mother? Are they expected to become another generation that will bear all this hardship with nothing being done for them? Are we merely to sympathise and say: "It is a pity things are like that; we wish them to be otherwise."

Something must be done to lift the standard of the agricultural worker because with the introduction of machinery, on the one hand, and the poverty-stricken existence he is compelled to endure on the land, on the other, agriculture is fast losing the numbers that have been employed in it in the past. A Parliamentary Question asked by Deputy Tully as reported at column 669 of the Official Report of 6th March last seems to have passed unnoticed by the Press but if there were any alertness, one would imagine it would have been highlighted.

Deputy Tully asked for details of the change in agricultural employment between 1961 and 1962. The answer is staggering. It shows that the number of persons employed in agriculture has changed to such an extent that 18,800 persons left agriculture between one year and the other. Of these, 13,500 were members of families; 3,300 were males permanently employed in agriculture; 2,000 were temporary employees and the gross total is 18,000 who left agriculture between 1961 and 1962. Surely somebody must be concerned with that?

I attribute that to two factors. One is the introduction of machinery and the second is the low standard of living which is associated with employment on the land. Unless we can provide our agricultural workers with a better standard of living than they are getting today this drift from the land will continue and will cause problems in towns and cities. When a person leaves the land to take his chances in the towns and cities he causes housing problems, employment problems, traffic problems and the various other problems associated with areas in which people live in a large aggregate of that kind, where their number is unplanned, as migration is always unplanned.

Is there anything in the Government's agricultural policy which tends to stop this migration from the land? We talk about 5,000, or 6,000 or even 10,000 people getting employment in industry but we have got to remember all the time that these other people in agriculture are human beings as well and they are leaving employment on the land because, in the main, of the two factors to which I have already adverted. Can anybody see anything that is likely to change this tendency? Quite frankly, I cannot see it. If there is any policy it ought not be kept a secret. The farmers ought to know it; the agricultural workers ought to know it and everybody concerned with the well-being of the nation ought know it. Nobody has been able to say what the agricultural policy is, at least I have not heard it. If the policy is that of multiplying our cattle population then it offers no solution whatever, even for the problems of the agricultural workers or the problems of the small farmers.

No increase in cattle prices in Britain, even if the cattle could be got, or no increase in cattle prices in West Germany, even if our cattle were wanted there, would be of the slightest use to the farmer with 10, 20, 30 or 40 acres of land. Increased prices for cattle would play an imperceptible part in his livelihood and his domestic organisation. What then is the problem?

How long are we going to carry on this business of subsidising our butter exports? Remember that in each of the two years past we spent £3¼ million and £3 million on the subsidisation of butter so that the total for the two years was £6¼ million. Milk has now become the enemy of the Irish Exchequer. That is the situation we have reached but nobody has any suggestion to make on this matter. When are we going to stop paying £3 million a year to other people for eating our butter while our own people continue to pay high prices? I am not blaming the Government for this. This is happening while you are here and while we are here and quite clearly from the national viewpoint we ought to apply our energies in trying to find a solution to this problem.

I am not so sure that some of the money spent on subsidising butter exports might not have been better employed trying to find overseas markets, particularly in the emergent countries of Africa and Asia for dried milk which might well help to take up the substantial surplus of milk on the market today. Many of the countries in Asia and Africa just do not know what clean milk is. In many of these countries there are entire districts where children never saw their first birthday because of malnutrition. There are other areas where the second baby kills the first because there is no food for the first when the second is born. Is there any possibility that we could find a market for dried milk in some of these developing countries where the provision of a decent supply of milk is a necessity for the maintenance of the population and the maintenance of a standard of health which will avoid for them gross waste of money in the provision of medicine, hospitals and cemeteries?

I doubt if we are getting good value for the £3 million odd we spend on subsidising butter. I realise, of course, that if you are to maintain a dairy business, you must have calves and if you are to maintain a cattle population, you must have calves and milk and you must have markets for them. If you cannot consume the milk here, you must find markets for it. One is entitled to ask if in our circumstances we can continue to afford to spend £3 million subsidising butter exports? We are entitled to ask whether there is not some other way in which we can get better value for that money than we are getting. It is a problem for us all and the solution has to come from ourselves.

Quite frankly, the most hopeful developments that I see in the agricultural field are the proposals which have emanated from the Irish Sugar Company in regard to their scheme for growing and processing vegetables of all kinds, and later on, perhaps, meats of all kinds. This offers the best solution I can see for the problem of the small farmer because it is by growing something which needs careful personal attention, on an extensive scale, and which is eventually properly processed and competently marketed, that we can get a return for the farmer, particularly the small farmer, which he would not get by growing a crop of oats or wheat, if "crop" is the proper word to use when associated with some of these small farmers throughout the country.

I see in the sugar company's development a greater ray of hope for the small farmer than in any other item of agricultural activity. Mark you, the field may not be left to us too long. Other countries may think of doing the same as we are doing, but we have the advantage of a suitable climate; we are in the field and we have certain other production advantages as well. It may very well be that we can get off to a good start and because of the efficiency of our processing be able to hold our position in the European and world market. It seems to me that only from that point is there any glimmer of hope that there is likely to be an improvement in the position of the small farmer and, consequently, in the possibility that the agricultural worker will in some way be beneficially affected by an improvement in the lot of the farmer who is engaged in this kind of cultivation of fruit and vegetables.

I should like to ask the Minister a few questions about our position vis-á-vis the breakdown in the negotiations on Britain's application for admission to the European Economic Community. It is quite clear now that there has been a complete break there. A number of people have said publicly that as far as the British application is concerned, it must be regarded as dead for quite a long time to come. If that is so, then what is our position? Are we just to mark time with the British and wait until a suitable opportunity arises for Britain to re-submit her application and then revive our application as well?

Is that the policy in respect of our membership of EEC and is that our line for the future? Efforts are now being made to revivify the EFTA organisation but, as has been rightly said, EFTA has no attractions for us. In the first place, the EFTA organisation is confined to the objective of developing a free trade policy in regard to industrial products. It is in no way concerned with a free trade policy in respect of agriculture, and as our object in getting into EEC was based on a belief—I think, a mistaken belief in many respects—that what we would lose on industry, we would gain on agriculture, clearly EFTA has nothing whatever to offer us in this connection, although at the same time any effort to revitalise EFTA may show itself in the form of EFTA itself, as a group, seeking to make an agreement with the EEC countries and thus there might be some organic connection between the two of an advantageous character.

It is too early yet to say whether that is a right assumption or whether, if the attempt were made, the objective could be achieved by EFTA. So now we are in the situation where EFTA is of no advantage to us whatever and the EEC situation is that, as the British application has been rejected, we are sitting outside with the British waiting to see if the British application will be revived or whether the British will seek to have it revived and, if so, how long will it take the British to have it revived.

A statement was made a few days ago by a prominent member of the British Labour Party, whose voice has been associated with the making of policy within that Party, to the effect that if the British Labour Party win the next general election, it will be four years before they apply for membership of the EEC. Supposing that happens, supposing they win the next election—and I was reading an interesting dissertation in the Irish Press recently on the result of a Gallup poll on the next election in Britain which seems to accept that there is no question that the Labour Party will win the next election. If it does, and this forecast of the speaker I mentioned represents British Labour Party policy, then it could mean that the new British Government might not make any application for admission to EEC for a period of four years.

What are we to do during the four years? The Government have embarked on a policy which in certain circumstances might be right, but in the circumstances in which we live, having regard to the people with whom we have to negotiate, we might have to change our policy very frequently in an issue of this kind. The Taoiseach has said the Government are working on the assumption that we are moving into a time of freer trade, with, ultimately, free trade. Having earlier said we would be in EEC by 1st January, 1964, the Taoiseach has now said: "In any case, the likelihood is we will be in there sometime. What we propose to do in these circumstances is to scale down the tariffs so that when we are admitted, all that painful exercise of cutting tariffs will be over and we can walk in with our heads up and tell our colleagues in EEC that we have now done all the exercises and complied with all the demands necessary for admission."

I suggest that in view of the statement attributed to the member of the British Labour Party, we have to ask ourselves now is it wise to continue this policy of tariff reduction here if the only thing we are doing thereby is making it easier for all the countries of EEC, and indeed every other country in the world, to export goods here under conditions which will be easier, as we scale down tariffs, than they are today. Is it a good policy to keep scaling down tariffs, which we undertook to do, even if we got the compensatory advantages of EEC membership, when in fact we are getting no compensations? All we are doing is pulling down tariff barriers and allowing the British, the Europeans and everybody else throughout the world to jump the tariff barriers and compete here against Irish manufacturers. It is all right to go around letting tariff barriers down if you do that as a member of a group or if ultimately certain advantages will flow to you. It is all right to do it in such circumstances, but if we are to reduce tariffs for the benefit of the world and then if we cannot get into EEC, where we are told there will be some advantages for us, I begin to question the wisdom of a policy of continuing to reduce tariffs unless we can see and feel some tangible results from the other side.

I see no co-operation between EEC and this country in sight. I see no evidence of it, and what I am asking the Government to say therefore, in the absence of that co-operation and in view of the possibility that the British application may not be cleared up for years—in fact, it may never be cleared up since there are powers in Britain now developing a conflict with the cold concept of EEC—is what are we to do in the meantime. Being kept out of EEC while at the same time dropping our tariff defences to facilitate other exporting countries may well mean for us getting the worst of both worlds and that is something we ought to have a look at before we continue to commit ourselves to a policy of letting down our tariff defences without compensation from those who will benefit by reason of the fact that we let down these tariff defences for Irish industry.

Even as it is, I still think the situation vis-á-vis our application to join the EEC is in a very cloudy position. We do not know at all whether Gerneral de Gaulle takes the same view of our application as he does of the British application. We do not know whether he is any more favourable to us than he is to the British. Some influential people have been saying that the General regards us as an associate of Britain, as being likely to be a friend of Britain in the EEC and looks askance at our being admitted because he regards it as a strengthening of the British influence within the EEC.

Even if the British get over the hurdle and are admitted, are we clear we can get over the hurdle? Will we find that, even if Britain gets over the hurdle, we shall be told we are an undeveloped country and cannot get in and that the most we can get is association on whatever terms it is possible to get that association? Many people think that while Greece did fairly well in getting association with the EEC, there will be no more Greek agreements and that it is quite unlikely that anybody else will get the same terms as the Greeks got on that occasion.

The whole situation is so cloudy and so muddy that the Government ought to do some rethinking. I do not blame the Government for a change of policy. The situation is so fluid and the necessity for safeguarding our interests so paramount that one is justified in moving in any direction thought suitable. Even frequent changes of policy might be necessary and could be understood in a constantly changing situation in which we are up against forces which are Goliaths compared with our economic position.

On the general question of the Estimate, our vote is not a vote against this Vote on Account. We believe this money is necessary if taxation is to be raised to provide civilised living conditions for our people. We believe it is useless and ineffective and infantile to talk about new services, on the one hand, and to refuse to provide the money, on the other. These are two utterly incompatible contentions which can never be reconciled.

We want to provide our people with a decent standard of living. In order to raise the present standard of living we must mobilise the resources of the nation. A Budget and a Vote on Account are all necessary cogs in that machine. My complaint against the Government—indeed it is one which a healthy Government would have themselves—is that they are not doing enough; that what they are doing is being done too slowly and too late. In the circumstances in which we find ourselves, and in the light of the problems confronting us there must be more drive, more vigour and the adoption of new methods if we are ever, in our lifetime, to find a solution to or, indeed, a substantial mitigation of the most rigorous problems confronting us today.

If the Government are willing to embark upon a policy of that kind, I think there will be support and goodwill for any such policy. Our danger today is that we may drift into a position of economic isolation in which we may lose even the traditional British market if by any chance Britain gets into the EEC and we are kept out because we are underdeveloped.

If these circumstances should develop, a serious situation would confront the country. It is because the need is urgent and that time is against us that I urge the Government, by every means in their power, to evolve policies calculated to relieve, if not completely to eradicate, some of the rigorous evils which confront us today. If they do that, the Government will have the goodwill of many sections of this House. If they fail to do so, then we shall continue to encounter unemployment—tens of thousands at the labour exchange—and emigration each year by the hundreds of thousands. We shall continue to give our farmers and their workers a low standard of living and, generally, we shall blunt the enthusiasm for a vigorous policy of development. That enthusiasm can be got today if the Government will only give a lead in the right direction.

I noticed last week that there was very considerable discussion on this Vote on Account of the housing position. As a Dublin Deputy, I am particularly concerned with this problem. I listened, too, for a period to the hysterical screechings of Deputy Sherwin and his claims to oracular knowledge in connection with this problem as it affects Dublin Corporation. Nobody, of course, is impressed by the performances he puts on. To some extent, at times, they are a form of light relief in the House. I daresay it takes all kinds to make a Dáil. I should like to impress on the Government the need to put the heat on Dublin Corporation and Dublin County Council—and, I am sure, some other local authorities—regarding their manner of tackling the housing problem.

I do not want to speak at great length on this Vote on Account or to indulge in clichés on housing but it is impossible not to realise that housing is fundamental to the prosperity of our people and is the basis of whatever progress the nation will make in the future or has made hitherto. In Dublin, we have a continuously-developing housing problem. As was amply demonstrated by Deputy Norton in his speech, that problem arises to a great extent from the flight of people from rural Ireland to the cities.

Dublin is the receiving centre of many thousands of workers who are fed up working for farmers for little or no money. Many of them are farmers' sons who had to move out of uneconomic farms and are trying to get work in Dublin. Furthermore, Dublin is the halfway house for returning emigrants or for people coming home on holidays and stopping and, perhaps, getting a job in Dublin and perhaps marrying and settling down here. Then there is the continuous problem for Dublin Corporation and the county council of housing these people.

It has been stated here by Deputy Sherwin—I do not know if it has been stated by others—that the housing problem in Dublin is due to the return of emigrants over the past few years, that the housing problem is due to two factors, that there was a sufficiency of houses some years ago, that there were vacant houses for which tenants could not be found and that that slowed down house planning and house-building. Added to that there was this mass return of emigrants.

Anybody with any knowledge of Dublin housing—and mine goes back 20 years—knows very well that it is an ever-developing problem and while at some time or other this condition may appear to reach a stage of saturation, that cannot be at any time but a temporary phase. The Housing Committee of Dublin Corporation, no matter how they may try to excuse their failure, must carry the responsibility for letting the machine which was then in existence for the annual building of houses grind to a halt and become motionless over a considerable period. As far as the alleged mass return of emigrants is concerned, they are no more than a handful in the problem which confronts Deputies in this city and Dublin Corporation.

They are 1,500, not a handful.

They are no more than a handful in the 8,500 which is the actual figure of people looking for houses. I know the corporation endeavour to excuse or to minimise that figure of 8,500 by saying that is not the effective number, that the effective number is half or less than half— meaning that the list they regard as effective is composed of people whose plight is absolutely desperate, and the inference is that the other half of that 8,500 are really only applying for houses out of a spirit of fun. That is not so. The question of sub-tenants in corporation houses is a major one.

The number is 4,000 but they are included.

The question of sub-tenants is a major one. In my constituency, particularly in Ballyfermot, in practically every second house, there is a married son or married daughter with one, two or more children living there. Everybody knows the social problems created by a situation in which more than one family live within a very confined space. Corporation houses are small and people live almost on top of one another. The misery ensuing from that is as grievous as any misery which resulted from any housing problem which existed in this city even in the worst days of the slums.

The slums are largely eliminated now. In fact, one has to travel to see a tenement whereas formerly in the memory of most of us Dublin was full of tenements. The housing problem has, in the main, now drifted out to the new corporation housing areas, to the fringe areas of the city and it is not being tackled by the Housing Committee of Dublin Corporation. The Housing Committee of Dublin Corporation have fallen down on the job. Through the Government, I want to ask the responsible Minister to put the heat on these people. I know he has done his best in regard to this problem in other parts of the country but I ask him to put the heat on the local authority concerned and make them do their job which they are not doing now.

They do not need any heat.

The question of unemployment has been ably dealt with by Deputy Norton. This is a matter which must concern the Government and must concern any Government in office. It is an appalling thought that we have this residual number of unemployed regardless of the tremendous emigration figures. There was a time when it was argued that no matter what was done there would be chronic unemployment. That might be true of a minute fraction but my personal knowledge convinces me that by far the greater number of the people who have to go to the labour exchanges to get a few shillings every week in order to live would be happier in any reasonably paid employment. The number of unemployed must be the yardstick of the success or failure of the Government's policy, whether the number is declining or increasing, and latterly it has shown a very alarming tendency to increase.

The question of increased production is one with which the Government must concern themselves and, with the Budget coming shortly before us, the question of increasing production, of reducing costs and of enabling us to compete so far as we can in markets outside this country in the future, must occupy the thoughts and attention of the Government. Therefore, in regard to a development to which I have referred here by way of Parliamentary question a couple of weeks ago, I should like to take this opportunity to present it more clearly to the Minister for Finance as the responsible Minister of Government in connection with matters of business, the matter of methods of efficiency, the question of costs and the question of the cost of living generally. I refer to this development over the past few months particularly, of a racket called trading stamps. This is, as I described it previously, a parasitic imposition upon the business community.

The question of trading stamps does not seem to have any relevance to the Vote on Account.

If you will permit me, Sir, I shall try to underline the relevancy which I consider it has. This business of trading stamps must result in increasing the cost of living and must result in the reduction of employment. It must also result inevitably in increased prices for the people and it is something which the Government must examine.

It seems to be more a matter for individual businessmen than for the Government.

I suppose, in the heel of the hunt, everything the Government do is a matter for the individual businessman. I shall not argue the point with the Chair. I accept what the Chair has to say on this matter, but I wish the Minister would look into it. While I am not given an opportunity of developing the point on this occasion, I shall avail of another opportunity, when it arises, to do so.

This morning, I tried to raise the very important question of the bus strike. I shall only say that I sincerely hope the Government will not lose any moment of time, and that the Taoiseach particularly will not lose any opportunity today, within the next few hours, to take some steps to obviate this terrible hardship that will exist on Monday. I hope the Taoiseach will intervene personally and try to get some amicable solution to the problem. Sooner or later, this matter has to be settled, and it would certainly be better for the half million people who will be walking in Dublin next week if it could be settled at this stage.

I want finally and briefly to make an appeal to the Government on behalf of the old age pensioners. Budget time is coming near and I should like to express the wish that the Minister and the Government will devote all their energies towards trying to do something decent for the old age pensioners, and particularly for those who are dependent on non-contributory pensions. I think this opportunity should be seized to do something for them and it is by that measuring-stick that I shall judge the Government so far as the Budget is concerned.

On this Vote, I agree with what Deputy Norton had to say. This money is essential and it must be voted. There is no point other than pure obstructionism in voting against it, and I do not propose to take that course. The money must be made available because it is essential for the running of the public services.

The Vote on Account is taken annually and it gives an opportunity for a stocktaking of the Government's work during the previous year. The difficulty that arises in my constituency, which is a completely rural constituency, is that over the past year, the farmer's income has reduced while his outgoings have increased. A bullock which was worth £55 this time last year is now worth only £50, which shows a reduction of £5. With the new grading system, it will be impossible for our pig producers to get Grade A pigs and that will ultimately mean a reduction in the price of pigs. We are told by the Minister for Agriculture that there will not be any increase in the price of milk. Every Deputy, irrespective of which side he sits on, is receiving deputations from the ICMSA and the National Farmers Association pleading for increases, and those pleas clearly convey that the farmer's income is going down.

Everyone in the House knows that there is no market whatsoever for poultry or eggs. The bottom has fallen out of the market. The price paid for turkeys last season clearly indicates that it is no longer economic to produce turkeys for the export market, and the home market seems to be very limited.

Let us examine the outgoings of the farmers. Let us take rates, for example. In my county, the rates went up this year from 46/10 to 50/-, an increase of 3/2 in the £. The demand from the manager in Roscommon is for an increase of 8/- in the £, so it looks as if the rates there will increase from 44/-to 52/-. At the same time, the price which the farmer pays for feeding stuff to feed his livestock has increased. He has to pay more for a number of commodities and services such as beer, whiskey, cigarettes, tobacco, ESB charges, and bus and rail fares.

We all know that the economy of this country should not be based on the wheat rancher but on the small farmer who is breeding, rearing and feeding cattle for finishing in the midlands. He gets no advantage from the subsidy paid for wheat, or the guaranteed price for beet and barley. The fact is that it is no longer economic for the small farmer to stay on the land and, in my opinion, he will not stay on the land. If we are to make any effort at keeping the small farmer on the land, his income will have to be supplemented.

From a recent statement made by the Minister for Industry and Commerce, it looks as if our hopes of getting any factories in the West of Ireland are much more limited than they were. Some time ago, the small farmer could supplement his income by the price he got for poultry and eggs but, as I said, that market is gone. Up to the past year, he could also supplement his income by work he got from the local authorities on the roads. Again, it looks as if that is going, due to the use of machinery. I have often asked myself: is it economic to use machinery on our roads at the rate we have been using it for the past few years? I wonder is it the case of one county engineer competing with another county engineer?

That would seem to be a matter of detail for the Estimates rather than the Vote on Account.

The point I am trying to make is that the small farmer's income was supplemented by the amount of money he received from the work he did for the local authority. I think the Department of Local Government should spend more money on our by-roads and less on removing turns on main roads. If they are anxious to have some turns removed, surely they could give much more employment to the small farmer in rural Ireland than they give at the moment.

That matter could be relevantly raised on the Estimates but not on the Vote on Account.

It is also true if our farmers are doing reasonably well, our business people, our small shopkeepers, will do reasonably well. If the farmer's income were supplemented, it would mean that he would have more money to buy various commodities such as artificial manures, seeds, clothes, footwear, etc. At the moment, the small shopkeeper is going through a very lean period, particularly in the small towns of Roscommon and Leitrim, due to emigration and the competition of big self-service stores which are now moving in. He also finds himself in the position of giving extended credit to farmers for the simple reason that our banks are not prepared to give any credit whatsoever to the farming community, and particularly to the small farmers.

The small shopkeeper has to meet much heavier demands in the way of rates. We all know that these people are passing through a very hard period and the Government should try to give them some relief. A number of them have been compelled in recent years to carry out expensive improvements to their shops, in the line of new counters, plastering of walls, running water and toilets. These improvements have been called for by the health inspectors and the shopkeepers do not get any grants for them and could not qualify for them. A representative of the Valuation Office comes down and their valuations are increased by 15 per cent, 50 per cent, 100 per cent or 200 per cent.

The question of valuation does not arise on the Vote on Account. The Deputy will get an opportunity to raise it on the relevant Estimate but not on the Vote on Account.

Let us think about rates for a moment. A Select Committee should be set up by the House to deal with this matter. Some Deputies think that equalisation of rates would help to solve our problems. I do not know about that but I do know that people living in counties such as Leitrim, Roscommon, Sligo and Galway are no longer able to bear the demands made on them by the rating authorities. The Government have a certain amount of responsibility in this matter. There is no point in the Minister for Local Government or the Minister for Finance telling us that this is a matter for the county council.

Very often, a county council receives a scheme from the Department of Local Government. That scheme has a coating of chocolate but inside it is a lemon or gall. We were told that the Health Act would cost us only 2/6 in the £ on the rates but we know what it is costing now. If a local authority gets sanction in respect of a road scheme for £50,000 or £60,000, they do not get any money until the scheme is completed. They have to provide the capital involved and the interest charges are often very high. For that reason, the Government have a big responsibility in the matter of rates and they should set up a Select Committee of the House to examine the matter. The Government can solve the problem much easier than the local authorities because they have access to funds which no local authority could have. If the burden becomes too heavy for any section of the community, we should all make our contribution from the central authority.

Speakers on the other side of the House have made reference to the farming community not accepting rural water supplies and have said that it is a political move. We had deputations in Leitrim from the National Farmers Association opposing rural water supplies. The only reason they opposed them was that they were afraid they would put the rates skyhigh. They all admitted that they would like to have the water supplies but were afraid of the costs.

The question of water supplies is a detail for the Estimates.

Again, it must be remembered what the Health Act cost us. We do not want to find ourselves in the same position with regard to rural water supplies. As a percentage of the total emigration, my constituency leads the parade. I said on the Vote on Account last year that 66,780 people left my constituency over a period of 35 years. That is an average of almost 2,000 people a year. The Taoiseach said here a few weeks ago that emigration in 1961 was less than it was in 1960 and in 1962 was less than in 1961. I believe that statement is true and the answer to it is that all the people able to go have gone and there is nobody else left to go. It would be a pity if a statement of that kind were allowed to be misinterpreted. We have to bear in mind that in Leitrim nearly one house out of every two is closed.

On the question of land division, the Land Commission have gone from stop to full stop. References have been made to new Land Bills and to White Papers but the people in my constituency are fed up listening to this talk of new Bills and White Papers. They are of the opinion that when a new Bill or a White Paper is mentioned, it means that the people already suffering hardship are to be further overburdened. If the Government are sincere about increasing the size of the small farms, why do they not buy the land?

The question of land division has no relevance to the Vote on Account.

It is a matter of Government spending and Government policy.

The debate on the Vote on Account is devoted to matters of general policy and expenditure. Details arise on the Estimates.

Very often the forestry people are inclined to plant land which small farmers are prepared to work, and that is a pity. People who have reconstructed or built new houses in recent years find it difficult to get the Department of Local Government to pay out the grants.

That would be a matter for the Local Government Estimate and is not relevant to this debate.

The payment of housing grants is often delayed for minor reasons. Quite frequently, one finds unpainted doors and panes of glass broken in the houses. In such cases, the inspectors could let the grants go through and then the people would get the money as quickly as possible and be able to do the work. Whether there is a scarcity of money, I do not know, but we seem to have plenty of money for the building of luxury hotels and for increasing judges' salaries.

I had the advantage—if I might call it that—of either reading or listening to all the speeches. After a three weeks' debate, it would be impossible to deal with every point raised, although many speeches were merely repetition and raised no new point.

I shall deal first with Deputy Corish. We have not yet any figures dealing with total employment in 1962. On his own estimates, he arrived at a total increase in industrial employment over 1958 of 19,000. That figure may be correct; I am not sure. He does say that that is not due to new factories but an increase in employment, mainly in construction. He is not right on that point at least. In the December quarter of 1958 compared with the December quarter of 1962, there is an increase in employment in transportable goods industries of 20,600.

Another point made by the Deputy in regard to unemployment was that the rate of from seven per cent to eight per cent of insured people showed no improvement over the figure for 1957. That is not correct. The percentage of insured people on the live register in mid-February, 1957, was 11.8. In mid-February, 1962, the figure was 7.9, which is a very big difference. The total number of persons on the register in mid-February, 1957, was 93,000, 23,000 more than in mid-February this year.

I turn now to Deputy Dillon. He said:

If the Government are obliged to concede these facts

—relating to insurable employment, which we are not obliged to concede—

... and I do not think this Government can deny them, they ought to get out and make way for people who could do better. If I had that record, I should be ashamed to admit I had been responsible for the government of this country for the past six years.

The Deputy must have a very short memory if he does not remember how he stuck on towards the end of 1956 when we had a Government who did more harm to this country than any Government before or since. He has not a good record therefore to criticise this Government remaining on in office at this time.

Deputy Dillon then went on to deal with social welfare, especially the old age pensioners. He started off by saying that on 6th April, 1928, the Cumann na nGaedheal Government increased the old age pension by one shilling. He started at a very convenient date. If he had gone back a little, he would have had to say that Cumann na nGaedheal reduced the old age pension by a shilling. I think they are the only Party in western Europe that ever reduced the old age pension as a means of raising finance for Government purposes.

There were special circumstances at that time.

Of course, you can always plead special circumstances.

A civil war takes place only once in a lifetime.

They took a shilling from the old age pensioners to pay for the Civil War! That is the explanation Deputy Dillon gives and he is satisfied with it. They restored it again when they had been defeated in the Dáil. He went on to say that the Fianna Fáil Government remained on in office from 1932 to 1949 before anything was done for the old age pensioners. That is misstatement No. 1. The Fianna Fáil Government gave an increase immediately after the war when increases were given all round to State servants. All these various things were done at the same time in February, 1947. An increase was given all round to old age pensioners of 2/6d., but in addition to that, a food voucher worth 2/6d. was given to urban old age pensioners.

The Fine Gael Party seemed to cast a certain amount of ridicule on this food voucher. It was considered at the time, however, that the food voucher was more valuable to the old age pensioner than 2/6d. in cash, because it was difficult to get certain foods at that time. With the food voucher, he not only got 2/6d. worth of food but a guarantee that the food would be supplied at a fair price. That was the position up to 1948. The rural old age pensioners got 2/6d. cash and the urban old age pensioner got 2/6d., plus the 2/6d. food voucher. Deputy Dillon said that the inter-Party Government came along with a scheme in 1949 and gave 7/6d. all round. They gave that 7/6d. including what was given by Fianna Fáil in 1947, that is, they gave a 5/- cash increase to the rural old age pensioners and a 5/-cash increase to the urban old age pensioners, but they took away the 2/6d. food voucher.

That is not true.

The cost to the Government at that time was 5/- for the rural old age pensioner and 2/6d. for the urban old age pensioner. Deputy Dillon goes on to say that Deputy Norton brought in a Bill adding 7/6d. per week to the basic rate of old age pensioners, bringing them up to 17/6d. per week. He said he completely revolutionised the means test. He did not. That was done by the Fianna Fáil Government in 1952. The big change in the means test was made at that time and not by Deputy Norton.

Deputy Dillon then goes on to say that Deputy McGilligan provided 2/6d. in his Budget in 1951 for the old age pensioners. He did not. A Social Welfare Bill was brought in by Deputy Norton. As everybody knows, there was a bit of a rebellion among some elements of the inter-Party Government, including in particular Clann na Talmhan. They refused to support this Bill unless 2/6d. were included for the old age pensioners. That amendment was put into the Bill. The Government were thrown out, however, and the Bill was abandoned. The 2/6d. was provided by the Fianna Fáil Government when they came into office in 1951.

I do not want to interrupt the Minister, and I shall not interrupt him, but I stand over everything I said here.

The Deputy always does. He is not interested in the truth and he never was. He is only interested in making propaganda.

That is the truth. I shall not say another word.

It is not the truth. If the Deputy puts down a question to the Minister for Social Welfare asking on what date each increase was given to the old age pensioners, he will have to get an answer. But it would not suit him to put down that question.

He goes on to say that Fianna Fáil came into office in 1952 and gave 1/6. They gave 2/6 in 1951 and 1/6 in 1952. That was that for that particular time. In 1955, the inter-Party Government gave 2/6. Fianna Fáil gave 1/-in 1957, 2/6 in 1959 and 1/- in 1960. Deputy Dillon got as far as 28/6 and "I think there has been a further upward adjustment since that," he said. As a matter of fact, there have been further adjustments up to 32/6—a total of 4/- — which were disregarded by Deputy Dillon, though he made a great case for what the inter-Party Government had done; in fact, of course, they gave 5/- during their two terms in office.

Deputy Dillon's next point was emigration. As usual, he talked about the 300,000 people who left this country in six years. That figure is, of course, wrong. The latest figure we have is that for the end of January 1963. Now from the end of January 1957—just a month before we came into office; the end of February would be a better figure, better, too, from our point of view—to the end of January, 1963, the total figure is 218,000. It is an immense figure. It is far too high, but it is also far different from 300,000, the round figure adopted by Deputy Dillon.

The census, as has been often said, is the only real source from which can be given the real figure for emigration and the census has proved that these figures adopted from year to year of the outward and inward movements are largely true, but for some reason the outward and inward movements are a bit higher always than the census subsequently proves. That figure, therefore, is a bit too high—maybe 10,000 too high, as the census will prove when published in a few days' time.

Emigration, of course, did not start in our time. In the three years, January, 1954, to January, 1957, the figure was 150,000, which, in three years, represents a fair effort on the part of the inter-party Government compared with the 200,000 for the six subsequent years. I should like to draw the attention of Deputies also to the fact that in the last year we have available—the end of January, 1963— the emigration figure is 12,700. That is not a figure specially picked because it seems more favourable; if we go back and take any month in the past six months, the figure is in or about the same. There has been, therefore, a remarkable improvement in the emigration figures over the past six years.

Deputy Donegan, of course, was back once more to this point of his that we voted £250,000 in 1957 for marketing but never spent it. Deputy Donegan will be glad to know that it has been spent.

The Government fiddled it away to An Bord Bainne for administration expenses.

The money is gone. Is the Deputy satisfied?

The Minister did not spend it on the specific purposes for which it was voted.

The Deputy has been complaining that the money was not spent. Is he satisfied now? It has been spent.

But it was not spent on marketing. There was a fiddle. It was slithered over to Bord Bainne and the Pigs and Bacon Board for administration expenses, not marketing.

I am telling the Deputy now the money has been spent and he will not even say "Thank you". Is he satisfied?

It is worthwhile if it brings a smile to the face of Deputy Dolan for once.

It is no wonder Deputy Dolan is smiling. A number of Deputies seemed to have a fear, if I may so describe it, that the Government were not giving sufficient thought and sufficient care to the way the money was being spent. I can assure Deputies that that is far from true. The Estimates are examined very carefully. When they come in, they are, first of all, cut down departmentally; secondly, they are cut down by me; and, thirdly, they are cut down by the Government. Anything that appears to the Government, in the final analysis, as unnecessary or inadvisable is cut out and, in the end, only the bare amount necessary appears.

Now, although that criticism was advanced by many Deputies, and there were complaints of extravagance and so on, I do not remember hearing any suggestion from any Deputy that any particular item should be cut out. There are some things which I shall mention later which might come under that heading.

Deputy Sweetman referred to a 50 per cent increase in Supply Services over the past eight years. His figures are, I think, correct. The increase is around 50 per cent but it must be remembered that in the past eight years, the gross national product has increased by 46 per cent and, as a matter of fact, the table I have made out here—I think I produced it the last time this Vote was under discussion—shows that there is a remarkable relationship maintained between national product and Government expenditure. Taking it, first of all, as the Book of Estimates shows the position—that is, with the capital items included—it has varied over the years from 1953 to now between 25.8 per cent, which is the lowest figure, and 28.6 per cent. There is no pattern at all in regard to when it was highest and when it was lowest. Indeed, the two lowest figures—25.8 per cent— occurred in 1955 and 1958 and the two highest occurred in 1956 and 1961.

Does that include rates or is it simply Government taxation?

No. I am dealing with Government taxation first. If we take the current expenditure—that is, leaving out the capital items in the Book of Estimates—the percentage has varied between 21 and 22 over these years. The rates increase also gives a picture of a fairly constant figure. Deputy Sweetman talked about the rates increase this year as compared with last year; this relates now to the amount provided for rates on Government property. First of all, there was a miscalculation last year, particularly in the Dublin rate, and it is, of course, the Dublin rate which is the important one because about 40 per cent. of our buildings are rated in the Dublin area. There is really not so much in the point. The rates will not amount to £25,000,000 this year. If you take the amount provided last year for the relief of rates into account, last year's would be about £22,000,000; this year's may be in or around £23,000,000.

With regard to increased taxation, every Deputy, of course, talked about increased taxation. It is, I agree, quite a legitimate point because it is certainly disturbing to see the amount going up so very steeply each year.

Would the Minister excuse me? I think he said Government taxation represented 28 per cent. of gross national product?

Government taxation, including the capital amount in the Book of Estimates, 26 to 28 per cent.

The reason I ask is that the Taoiseach said at column——

Sorry; I should say expenditure, not taxation. It is the Book of Estimates I am talking about. When we talk about increased taxation, there are two ways of looking at it. Suppose we had come in in 1957 when the tax was so much on tobacco, beer, spirits and so on; income tax was so much, and if we had left that taxation just as it was without any change whatever and if we carried on up to the present and were collecting now in revenue sufficient to meet the bill, I think we could claim that we had not increased taxation. It would be because the yield had grown owing to the general growth of productivity and prosperity and so on in the country. Naturally, as wages and salaries go up and as costs in various ways go up, higher income would be necessary, but if it came from the same taxes I think nobody could find any great fault with it.

On the other hand, if Deputies criticise because the amount taken in, whatever the source may be, is going up. I think that would be unreasonable. Therefore, I examined on the first basis, that is, leaving taxes as they were in 1957, what yield they would give us at present. If I go back on the Budgets for the past six years, I find that we got £1,100,000 from the tax we put on tobacco, let us say, and that we took 6d., let us say, off income tax by which we lost £1,700,000. Taking these Estimates all these years down to the present and, if you like, assuming they were true estimates—they were not far out, anyway—I find that we have, over the six years, reduced direct taxation—income tax and such taxes—by £6.3 million and have increased indirect taxation, that is, the revenue taxes, such as tobacco, beer and spirits, by £4.8 million. So that actually we are in receipt of £1½ million less now than if we had left taxes as they were in 1957.

A very remarkable calculation.

I invite the Deputy to ask me a question and I shall give him full details of every tax down through the six years. Let him examine them and if he can find any fault with them, he can tell me. But I know he is not going to ask that question.

I am certainly not going to let the Minister write my questions for me.

Then, put down a tricky question if you like; we shall answer that, too.

I shall put down the question you do not want me to ask.

The Deputy laughs, but he will not put down the question.

I think your calculation is as daft as a sixpenny watch.

If I am as daft as the Deputy, I shall leave this position.

I did not say that the Minister was daft but that his calculation was daft. There is a finesse of distinction.

I told the Deputy the tax position in every Budget I brought in. I said: "I am putting a penny on cigarettes," let us say, "and I expect to get in so much. I am taking 6d. off income tax", let us say, "and I expect to lose so much". I put these down as they were calculated and the result is that if we had done nothing to change taxation in that period, I would have £1½ million more this year.

We come now to the increase of £56.1 million as compared with 1956-57 in this Book of Estimates, but there are some big spending Departments, where every Deputy will, if he asks for anything, always ask for a bit more— Social Welfare, for instance. Social Welfare cost £22.5 million in 1956-57. It is now £28.5 million, £6 million more. Health expenditure has gone up by £1½ million; Education, including Universities, is up from £12.3 million to £21.8 million; Agriculture from £7.9 million to £24 million and Agricultural Grants from £4.8 million to £8.8 million. In these four headings, Social Welfare, Health, Education and Agriculture, the increase has been £38 million and that is £38 million of an increase in general expenditure over 1958 which leaves £20 million. It is easy to go and get smaller amounts to take up that £20 million but I am not going to bother the House with small figures at the moment.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Lands, mentioned that bank credit for agriculture had gone up. He said that from April, 1957 to 1962, the amount went up from £17.2 million to £34.7 million. He did not say, but I am saying now, that amount from the Agricultural Credit Corporation went up from £2½ million to £4 million, so that, actually, we had an increase from something under £20 million to £38.7 million. We have heard for four or five days now, largely I should say from Deputies on Fine Gael benches, about the plight of the farmers of the country. While I do not claim that farmers are well off, I cannot agree with Fine Gael Deputies in their estimate of the farmers' condition at present. The banks and credit corporations have been increasing credit to the farmers. I did not make any inquiries in the past week or two on hearing these speeches here, but the last time I did inquire I was told that in practically all cases the farmers' instalments were repaid to the credit corporations on the dates due. The farmers are meeting their obligations even though they are getting much bigger credit than in 1957.

The Agricultural Credit Corporation, I admit, have been encouraged by me and the Minister for Agriculture to be generous in the credit they give but the commercial banks over which we have no control lend money where they think it pays and obviously they think it pays at present to make bigger advances to the farmers than were made in 1957. In addition, the price of land has gone very high and the price of conacre is higher than for many years, higher practically than it has ever been. You have these indicators from outside the farmers themselves which show that farming is not as dead or as hopeless as some of the Fine Gael speakers would like us to believe.

Deputy Rooney said that if Fianna Fáil were in touch with the people, they would have heard the talk about luxury hotels etc., while farmers were in the very low state in which they are at present. I think we are as much in touch with people as Deputy Rooney or any Deputy on the opposite side but I admit I do not meet the type of people Deputy Rooney and other Fine Gael speakers have been talking about as farmers. I do not have to listen to the envious, evil-minded, discontented morons whom the Fine Gael Deputies seem to meet down the country who have complaints to make about everything and no encouragement at all for the people of the country.

The creamery farmers surely are not morons?

The fellows who talk for them are the morons; people like Deputy Rooney. The Fine Gael speeches are purely demagogic, misrepresentations, misquotations of speeches, falsifications of figures and so on, a mixture of all these things which Fine Gael have tried for many years. There is a continuous wail of how badly off they are in these places. As I say, I have met the farmers. I meet them very often in the country. As a matter of fact, my constituency is largely rural and I nearly always meet farmers when I am down there. We chat about things and they are normal people. They are not always complaining but they are very good farmers. I have come to the conclusion that every bad farmer follows Fine Gael and tells them he cannot make ends meet. Fine Gael are always pleading for the bad farmer.

For instance, Deputy Dillon said that we had reduced the price of wheat. We have not. We have increased the price for the good farmer and reduced it for the bad farmer. Deputy Dillon and the Fine Gael Party are always speaking for the bad farmer. They want a better price for the fellow who brings in dirt to the miller.

What the miller calls dirt.

Yes, that is right, and what Fine Gael call good farming, as far as I can see. Fine Gael speakers also complained about the rise in bacon grading standards. Surely we must raise our standards and try to get for the farmers who produce the good pigs a better price and bring down the price for those who produce bad pigs. Unless there are improved pigs and better bacon, it is not likely that we will get an export market for it.

There were three matters which practically every Fine Gael Deputy repeated. One was the matter of Ministers attending dinners. This is the low form of talk which we hear from practically every Fine Gael speaker. If they had more experience, they would believe, as I believe, that you get just as good a dinner at home as in an hotel. They do not know that but they will learn.

The second point was that they all referred to the increases for judges. As I said before, that was a real demagogic touch. We gave our reasons for that increase. We believed that the judges should get an increase like every other section of the community. Every member of the Fine Gael Party who criticised us on this matter should read the speech of their former Leader, Deputy Costello, and learn what he thought about the scheme. If they do that, I shall be quite satisfied.

Now I come to the Health Act. I said that it would not cost more than 2/- in the £ and every Fine Gael speaker quotes that back at me. One would imagine that if there had been no Health Act, there would not have been a penny increase since 1953. They come along and say that I said it would not cost more than 2/- but that actually it has increased rates by 5/-or 6/-. I obtained the figures for Wexford in this regard. I had these last year also. These are last year's figures because this year's rate has not yet been struck. The total for all health and public assistance in 1953-54, before the Health Act, was 9/4¾d. and the total last year was 15/0½d., so that the increase was 5/8d. For the mental hospital, for instance, which has nothing to do with the Health Act, the increase was 1/3d.

The increase for all their staff, nurses, doctors and so on, came to 2/6d. That is a total of 3/9 which leaves 1/11d. Other items could be taken also. For instance, an incapacity scheme was brought in under the Health Act which, as far as I remember the definition of the Act, was for a person who had no means, who was permanently incapacitated and who was not insured, and who got a certain amount from the local authorities. I think it was about a £1 a week. That saved the local authorities a good deal on home assistance. It was about 6d. in the £ in Wexford. There was that saving and therefore it should scarcely be counted against the Health Act at all, but it is evident that whatever the Health Act may have cost, it certainly did not cost the 5/- or 6/- by which the rates have increased. The increase would have been there in any case to some extent.

Deputy O'Donnell from Limerick, who made a typical Fine Gael speech, said there was no industry for Limerick. I must say that I personally saw a reference during the last week to the extension of the cement factory which is costing £1 million and there is also to be a new German plywood factory costing £500,000, and of course there is the new luxury hotel about which we heard so much. Deputy Carroll talked about Limerick and said that when he visited it, he could not get a bed there, so evidently there is need for an hotel. Deputy O'Donnell can call it a luxury hotel, if he likes; it may bring business to Limerick. I hope it will, and if so, it is not going to do any great harm.

Some Deputies referred to the control of prices. I must say I have never been in favour of controlling prices. I remember when I was Minister for Agriculture, prices were controlled, they were fixed, and in my opinion, they were always fixed higher than they should have been. When price control was removed, prices went down in many cases. You must get some person or tribunal to fix prices and if somebody makes an impression on those fixing the prices, they may very often fix them higher than they should be. I think we are better without control.

Deputy McGilligan made a long speech, the gist of which was to prove that we were anti-labour. He also attacked the White Paper Closing the Gap. The first time I remember Deputy McGilligan as a politician was when he was a Minister when the Shannon Scheme was being opened. He manfully maintained that 27/- a week was enough for a labourer. I remember married men in Limerick who went to get a job and they had to keep themselves there and their wives at home, all on 27/- a week, but Deputy McGilligan stood for it, although he was attacked and he said that it was as much as the State could afford. What does he think about the White Paper? He condemned it. In 1948 when introducing his Budget, he said:

The substantial wage and salary increases already secured by all classes of workers, with such further advantages as shorter hours, paid holidays, children's allowances and other increases in social services, have gone as far as is possible, in present circumstances, to meet the claims of social justice.

All these advantages were put there by Fianna Fáil, of course. He was speaking of what was already done and he said:

I would make a most earnest appeal to all employees not to seek further increases in monetary remuneration or improvements in working conditions unless warranted by exceptional circumstances. Recent experience confirms that the benefit of an increase in money incomes is rapidly swallowed up by rising prices.

If I had seen that in time, I would have put it into the White Paper.

If you had done what Deputy McGilligan did before you—took off the penal taxes——

Let us talk about one thing at a time. Deputy McGilligan changed his mind after 1948. In his Budget speech in 1951, his last one, he said:

Increases in remuneration offer no escape from this unwelcome development; indeed, they can only accelerate the process of inflation and cause social injustice as between those able to improve or maintain their position and those who cannot enlarge their incomes and are therefore forced to assume an undue burden of hardship.

In his speech this year, Deputy McGilligan attacked the Taoiseach because the Taoiseach had said that those on fixed incomes were those most likely to suffer. He thought differently in 1951 when, in his Budget Statement, he went on:

For this reason, the Government ask for restraint in the putting forward of wage and salary claims and have taken measures intended to limit price increases to those justified by increases in costs.

He has changed his mind. He was succeeded by Deputy Lemass in the Department of Industry and Commerce and Deputy Lemass was able to get that Department going again after it had been moribund for ten years. Deputy McGilligan has never forgiven him for that. Deputy P. O'Donnell told us the 1956 debacle was due to Suez. I remember reading a report from Britain after the Suez crisis which said that Suez had very little effect on the British economy. Surely it should have had more of an effect on Britain's economy than on ours?

I am afraid Suez was a poor excuse for the Coalition to make, but of course they had to make some excuse. Deputy P. O'Donnell also said we had staked everything on getting into the Common Market. Now, he said, the Common Market is out, and he went on to attack us in the usual Fine Gael way because prospects of our joining the Common Market are poor. In other words, though Fine Gael have been supporting us in our application, when we face difficulties, they rat on us. They just rat and leave us there to carry the burden ourselves. Deputy P. O'Donnell is not the type one would like to go loan hunting with because he might let one down in a crisis.

He went on to say that the British Commonwealth countries might meet and might strengthen their ties or their bonds and might make some agreement which would leave us out in the cold, and blamed us for this. Was it not his Government who brought us out of the British Commonwealth? He wanted to know if I objected. I said no, but I wanted to ask him why he is squirming about it. We are not squirming. After all, if it was his Government who brought us out of the Commonwealth, why should he be squirming?

(South Tipperary): You thought that one up since.

Deputy Flanagan spoke yesterday evening for an hour and 55 minutes and made what purported to be official promises from Fine Gael. He prefaced all his promises by saying to the House and to the country that if Fine Gael get in, they will do so and so. They were official promises, as far as Deputy Flanagan could commit Fine Gael. Dealing with the teachers' salaries and Garda pay claims, he said if Fine Gael were over here, they would be all increased, presumably whether they proved their case or not. He said health charges would be borne by the Exchequer and taken off the rates, all road charges would be made a national charge and every farmer in this country would get £1,000. Even Deputy Dillon did not go as far as that. Deputy Dillon said that credit up to £1,000 would be made available to them. I would not mind saying that much myself.

You will say it very shortly, if I know you.

But Deputy Flanagan said they would each get £1,000 when Fine Gael come in, and free of interest, too. If they borrowed that money, it would come to £300 million and if Fine Gael pay for it, it will cost them about £20 million a year to finance it. Then Deputy Flanagan winds up by saying there would be no increase in taxation.

No trouble to them.

Are we to take Deputy Flanagan as speaking for Fine Gael?

Our attention was drawn by many speakers to the fact that our exports were lower in 1962 than in 1961. They were lower. The big item—it was not the only item—in that was our cattle. There was an abnormal export of cattle in 1961 because of the carry-over from 1960 and there were normal exports of cattle again in 1962. As a result, our exports were lower in 1962, but, as I have said, cattle alone did not account for the whole lot. However, we have done well in our exports. After all, when the Coalition Government were in office, our exports were going down. In 1954, they were £115 million. By 1956, they were £108 million and then we had to start all over again.

What were they in 1957?

£131 million.

Hear, hear.

"Hear, hear" is right, and they reached £180 million in 1961, which represented a 67 per cent. increase.

What about imports?

I will tell you about imports, too. Our imports rose by £10 million above our exports. I am not saying this is an extraordinarily prosperous country, but one of the signs of a prosperous country is to see high exports and high imports.

It is hard to know how you could have these if all the ships were at the bottom of the sea, as the Minister for External Affairs wanted.

Are we so badly stuck that we have to go back to that lie?

When they are fighting a war, they have to say things like that. We were fighting a war not only with the British but with Fine Gael as well. In such circumstances, if we say things like that, we must be excused for them.

Do they remember when they tried to bring us into the war?

Cá bhfuil an Ghaeilge?

Ar thaobh na Rúiseach.

Má tá Gaeilge agat, labhair í.

Ar thaobh na gCumannach.

The principal point of Deputy McQuillan's speech was an attack on private enterprise. He attacked us and he attacked Fine Gael —in that he was impartial enough— but his attack on us was for our devotion to private enterprise. Then he said we were inconsistent because we claimed to have a planned economy. I do not see anything inconsistent in that at all. We believe in private enterprise as far as possible. There are certain cases where private enterprise does not appear to fit in. Take the turf business. No private enterprise would undertake that business, I am quite sure, because it was not easy to see a profit in it when we were starting off. Therefore, a public utility was set up. As far as possible, we believe private enterprise should be encouraged. I do not think it is inconsistent to have a planned economy in addition to depending on private enterprise. Neither do I think it inconsistent to give a grant to help private enterprise to establish industry.

Deputy McQuillan also talked about unemployment and emigration. They have not, of course, been eliminated but unemployment has been reduced by 27,000—which is a substantial figure—and emigration by 31,000 at mid-February this year as compared with 1957. These two figures are fairly satisfactory.

By how much did employment fall?

It is going up, too. Do not worry.

It is going up. The number of people engaged in agriculture is dropping, but, apart from that, the employment figure is going up.

Deputy Harte made a typical Fine Gael speech. He said the Taoiseach went to Britain on his knees. When will Fine Gael get rid of their inferiority complex? Why should we go on our knees to British Ministers? I know Fine Gael. They think we are not nearly good enough to meet British, French, German or other Ministers. We are just as good as they are and we do not go on our knees at all.

They made fools of you in 1938.

It was a tradition——

Why did you not rectify it, if they did?

Labhair Gaeilge.

I want to tell Fine Gael, in case they do not know it, that big countries and small countries now meet on an even footing. There is no such thing as the big country trying to intimidate the small country. They meet as equals. We may not get what we want but we do not have to give anything, either, unless we agree to it.

Deputy Norton said he gathered from some Fianna Fáil speeches that the Government are satisfied everything is all right. I do not think that is true. I do not think any of us feels satisfied that everything is accomplished which we sought to provide for the people. There would always be something to be done. No Government can ever afford to feel satisfied. A Government should be dissatisfied and strive to do better and better all the time. However, we claim we have made big advances.

Advances have been made in the real incomes of wage earners. Advances have been made in the real value of social welfare benefits. No matter who or what you take—the old age pensioner, the widow, sickness benefit, unemployment benefit or anything else —the amount now has more value in real terms than in 1957. In other words, the increases have been bigger than the cost of living.

We have a bigger national income; we have bigger industrial and agricultural output. As I mentioned already, we have bigger exports. We have bigger incomes from tourism, and so on. These claims are all right but they do not by any means satisfy us that everything has been done. We believe we are on the right road, though we may yet have a long way to go, to achieve a better standard for all sections of the community.

Question put:
The Committee divided: Tá, 75; Níl 40.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Lorcan.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Blaney, Neil T.
  • Boland, Kevin.
  • Booth, Lionel.
  • Brady, Philip A.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breen, Dan.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Brennan, Paudge.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Burke, Patrick J.
  • Calleary, Phelim A.
  • Carroll, Jim.
  • Carter, Frank.
  • Carty, Michael.
  • Childers, Erskine.
  • Clohessy, Patrick.
  • Colley, George.
  • Collins, James J.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Corry, Martin J.
  • Cotter, Edward.
  • Crinion, Brendan.
  • Crowley, Honor M.
  • Cummins, Patrick J.
  • Davern, Mick.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Dolan, Séamus.
  • Dooley, Patrick.
  • Egan, Kieran P.
  • Egan, Nicholas.
  • Fanning, John.
  • Faulkner, Padraig.
  • Flanagan, Seán.
  • Gallagher, James.
  • Galvin, John.
  • Geoghegan, John.
  • Gilbride, Eugene.
  • Gogan, Richard P.
  • Hillery, Patrick.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Kitt, Michael F.
  • Kyne, Thomas A.
  • Lalor, Patrick J.
  • Lemass, Seán.
  • Leneghan, Joseph R.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Lynch, Celia.
  • Lynch, Jack.
  • McAuliffe, Patrick.
  • MacCarthy, Seán.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Meaney, Con.
  • Millar, Anthony G.
  • Moher, John W.
  • Mooney, Patrick.
  • Mullen, Michael.
  • Norton, William.
  • Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
  • Ó Ceallaigh, Seán.
  • O'Connor, Timothy.
  • O'Malley, Donogh.
  • Ormonde, John.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Sherwin, Frank.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Tierney, Patrick.
  • Timmons, Eugene.
  • Treacy, Seán.
  • Tully, James.

Níl

  • Barry, Anthony.
  • Barry, Richard.
  • Blowick, Joseph.
  • Browne, Michael.
  • Burke, James J.
  • Burton, Philip.
  • Byrne, Patrick.
  • Clinton, Mark A.
  • Collins, Seán.
  • Connor, Patrick.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Costello, Declan, D.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Dockrell, Henry P.
  • Donegan, Patrick S.
  • Dunne, Thomas.
  • Esmonde, Sir Anthony C.
  • Farrelly, Denis.
  • Gilhawley, Eugene.
  • Harte, Patrick D.
  • Hogan, Patrick (South Tipperary)
  • Hogan O'Higgins, Brigid.
  • Jones, Denis F.
  • Kenny, Henry.
  • Lynch, Thaddeus.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • McLaughlin, Joseph.
  • Murphy, William.
  • O'Donnell, Patrick.
  • O'Donnell, Thomas G.
  • O'Higgins, Michael J.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F.K.
  • O'Keeffe, James.
  • O'Reilly, Patrick.
  • O'Sullivan, Denis J.
  • Reynolds, Patrick J.
  • Rooney, Eamonn.
  • Ryan, Richie.
  • Sweetman, Gerard.
Tellers: Tá: Deputies J. Brennan and Geoghegan; Níl: Deputies O'Sullivan and Jones.
Question declared carried.
Vote reported and agreed to.
Barr
Roinn