Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 9 May 1963

Vol. 202 No. 9

Committee on Finance. - Vote 44—Posts and Telegraphs (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:

That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration. —(Deputy Crotty.)

Mr. Crinion

When I reported progress, I was talking about the automatic telephone system, and particularly the one in Kildare. There has been quite an amount of improvement in the past two weeks, and I believe the Minister took the matter up with his Department. When we are buying very expensive machinery, sufficient care should be taken to ensure that it will be trouble-free. When we are buying a new car, we like to know that we will be able to drive it without trouble. The engineers of the Department should examine the machinery thoroughly before it is put into public use. It is grand to have an automatic system, but it is rather irritating when one tries to get a number and cannot do so.

In Naas, there is a bone of contention. Naas is only a couple of miles outside the limit for local calls to Dublin. Sixty or 70 per cent of the business in Naas is with Dublin, and it would be considered an honour if Naas were included in the Dublin area. So far as I know, it extends to Johnstown, which is just a couple of miles away, and since so much business is done with Dublin and as calls are much dearer now, it would facilitate the business people and the general public if Naas could be included in the Dublin area.

Postmen's uniforms have been the same and made from the same type of material, for as long as I remember. Since the Army are getting new uniforms for the proposed visit of the President of the United States, perhaps something could be done to provide better material with a better cut for the postmen's uniforms. That would make them look smarter. As it is, after one heavy shower of rain, the uniform goes completely out of shape and becomes baggy. Postmen would like to have distinctive and smart uniforms.

More important is the provision of a pension scheme for auxiliary and unestablished postmen. Most good employers now have superannuation or pension schemes in operation. The Department of Posts and Telegraphs should consider providing some such scheme. Those men have worked for 20, 30 or 40 years delivering the post, and it is hard on them that when they reach the age of 70 years, they have no pension or superannuation scheme to cover them. Such schemes are in operation in every State body.

Those men are paid by the hour, and in quite a number of cases, they get a very low wage per week. Would the Minister look into the possibility of getting them a decent weekly wage for the very important work they do delivering the post around the countryside? They are paid on an hourly basis and they have a rather tight schedule. I know it is the duty of the Department to see that the post is delivered as early as possible, but something could be done to give those men a good week's wages. I know of some cases where men deliver the post in the mornings, are let off for three or four hours, and have to come back in the evening. That breaks up the whole day, and they are paid only for the actual time they are working. That leaves them with a rather small wage packet at the end of the week.

If more use were made of heavy cables, I believe there would be less trouble from storms and high winds and fewer phones out of order. There would not be so much danger of the wind breaking a heavy cable. Where there are ten to 14 telephone wires on a post, swaying in the wind, it is natural that in a storm or snowfall, they will break and there will be trouble in repairing them. A small twig falling on a wire can put the telephone out of order.

In 1957, a new cable was laid between Dublin and Sligo. In the past few days, I have noticed repairs or extensions being made to the cable between Leixlip and Maynooth. There should be sufficient foresight in planning and laying cables to ensure they will have the capacity to cater for anticipated needs for ten or 20 years ahead. I understand a new cable is being laid. I notice excavations on the road every couple of hundred yards and I have seen the roll of heavy cable lying there waiting to be put down. It is rather strange that in the short space of three years, the need to lay another cable should arise. I should like to see better planning which would obviate such necessity.

This country must be a joy to philatelists, having regard to the variety and number of new stamps issued. The pages of stamp albums devoted to specimens of Irish origin must be completely taken up. Stamp collecting is becoming very popular with children. That is a good thing because usually the stamp conveys some idea of the country or some important aspect of its history. Sales of Irish stamps to philatelists must be pretty substantial. I understand a new stamp will be issued in September. I should like to see brighter colours used in our stamps. The present issue of the 4d. stamp features freedom from hunger. That is a subject that we do not like to dwell on in 1963. In future issues dealing with brighter topics, I should like to see brighter and livelier colours used. I used to collect stamps when I was a boy and it is my experience that other countries produce stamps of great variety and bright colour. I recommend that idea to the authorities to be borne in mind in respect of future issues.

The 2d. stamp has been the same as long as I can remember. I would suggest that it be given a new look.

May I return to the subject of postmen, with which I have already dealt? It is very difficult for a postman to get permission from the Department to use his motor bike or autocycle on his rounds. The use of a motor bicycle would mean that the post would be delivered more expeditiously. If a man has a motor bicycle he should be allowed to use it.

The Authority is to be complimented on the TV programmes for the past year. The range has been wide and the programmes have been very suitable. Parents have told me that they are quite happy to allow their children to view programmes produced by Telefís Éireann. The programmes are well selected and of a high quality. The amount of advertising time they are able to sell shows that the programmes presented are popular. It would be too much to expect that there would be no criticism. However, having regard to the comparative expenditure on programmes, the quality of the programmes presented by Telefís Éireann compares very favourably with that of the programmes presented by UTV or BBC. The majority of Irish people consider that the Telefís Éireann programmes are superior to UTV and BBC programmes. A certain proportion of the programmes presented by Telefís Éireann are canned programmes but the live programmes are exceptionally good. It was a surprise to some people that the variety shows and dramas presented by Telefís Éireann are of such high quality. It does not surprise me. Having regard to the wonderful work performed by the Abbey Theatre over the years, I would expect good plays from them.

Amateur dramatic productions have become very popular. There was an audience of roughly about 10,000 for plays produced during the recent drama festival. It is good to see such public support for amateur dramatics. I would suggest that some of the plays produced for the festival should be televised. Perhaps so much time per week might be devoted to such programmes. It may not be considered worth while equipping a local hall for the purpose of a television programme lasting a quarter of an hour or half an hour but it would be great encouragement to local societies to have plays produced by them televised. The local communities would benefit and the programmes would be enhanced.

The plays and concerts I have attended have been very enjoyable. The artistes taking part in them have spent months preparing for the productions. It would provide a great incentive to these people if they felt that at some stage they might be selected for television, particularly if the production took place in the local background.

To recapitulate the items I have raised, I should like the Minister to bear in mind a greater use of heavy cables for telephones, new uniforms for postmen, a pension scheme and an examination of the automatic system equipment before it is put into use generally.

Mr. Sweetman

The Minister, as far as I heard him correctly, said at Question Time today that I was in the habit of making unfounded insinuations in relation to his Department.

Mr. Hilliard

I did not say that.

Mr. Sweetman

Then I misheard the Minister.

Mr. Hilliard

I did not say the Deputy was in the habit of doing it.

Mr. Sweetman

I want to say now that no single insinuation I have made in relation to the Minister's Department has ever been found wrong when it has been examined in my presence or when I have been offered the opportunity of verifying the examination. The Minister has a habit of arranging in his Department examinations of complaints that are made, without giving the other party any opportunity of being present or submitting evidence in support of the complaint. That is not the way to do things. There was a case the other day —I repeat the charge I made—in which an inspector of the Minister's Department pushed into a house and, if the Minister likes to accept his report instead of my allegation, I am prepared to have the matter dealt with by means of a sworn inquiry.

Having said that, I want to repeat that in Kildare there is a Newbridge number, which I will give the Minister any time he wants it, in relation to which there were complaints of bad service. An inspector of the Department came out and, in the presence of the subscriber, dialled 25 times. In eight of the 25 dials, a correct answer was produced, whether it was engaged or whether it was the right number; 17 produced the wrong number or failed to get any dialling tone at all. That could well be, but what infuriates the people in Kildare is that this is considered to be a normal practice and the Minister is not the least put out about it. In fact, this particular inspector said he thought he had got a good average; other people were in a worse condition. If others are in a worse condition than eight out of 25, then it means that the telephone system is completely chaotic and has completely broken down.

With regard to the Newbridge-Curragh Camp installation, I have made every excuse because it was a new automatic installation, but the Naas installation is not new. Ask any number you like in Naas and you will be told that, on automatic dialling, they never succeed in getting the right contact in better than one out of three. That is a wretched average and it is one which will make business utterly impossible if it continues. As far as I am concerned, I am not in Naas dialling in the daytime; I am there only in the evening. But I know the situation. I know it on the odd occasions on which I am there during the day. If you get one right out of three—by "right" I do not mean succeeding in getting a reply from the number; I mean getting the right tone after you have done your dialling showing whether it is engaged or getting an answer—you are lucky. That is a regular thing.

I have been sitting by my own telephone and people have told me they have dialled and could get no response. My phone has not rung. Officials have come out and told me, and I accept their word without question, that there is nothing wrong with the ringing end of my apparatus. It must therefore be something wrong with the automatic working of the system. When a person dials a number from Dublin, it does not ring the right number in Naas. I know myself that on my own direct dialling, I consider I have got a good result if I get one out of three correct. That is my personal experience. Any system that works in that fashion is a hindrance to business and not the asset the telephone should be.

Mr. Norton

I notice from the Minister's statement which he made prior to the Budget that he records again a fall in telegraph traffic and indicates that during 1962/63 the decline was over five per cent as compared with a one per cent decline last year. The Minister stated, however, that the decline occurred mostly in traffic with Great Britain and, to a lesser extent, in internal traffic. I wonder if the Minister could give any idea as to what the percentage fall in traffic is in respect of traffic originating internally as compared with traffic originating externally. We cannot, of course, control the external traffic and we must put up with whatever recession there is from that source, but I should like to ascertain from the Minister whether even the home traffic is holding up or whether the decline is jointly over the internal traffic and the external traffic. If the Minister has any figures on the subject. I should like to get them from him when he is replying.

The Minister also said in the course of his statement that certain progress has been made in respect of the erection of the new sorting and central delivery office in Dublin. He said :

The foundation and steel erection works were somewhat delayed by unexpected water level difficulties and by bad weather but the work is now progressing satisfactorily.

While I know that the building operations are in their infancy could the Minister, now that we have started to erect the building, give any idea, even approximately, when is it likely to be available for the purpose for which it is being erected. I take it some targets in point of time have already been set and, while not being bound to these targets because of the magnitude of the task, perhaps the Minister could, nevertheless, give us a picture as to when the new office is likely to be available.

The Minister took pride in the fact that the Post Office, as one of the largest employers of labour in the country, was keenly conscious of the vital need for keeping abreast of developments in modern management techniques and that various members of the staff had done courses during the past year in management. The Minister is quite justified in taking pride in the excellent work which the Post Office have done in the field of management techniques and I personally would like to be associated with the congratulations to the Post Office on these developments. It took a long time to get the Post Office into the 20th century but now that they have come into it, they appear to enjoy the environment and the salubrious air and to realise that the Post Office is not run by one small section but that it takes the man in the field and on the bog road as well as the gentlemen in high administrative offices to make a service of that kind possible. I appreciate it.

However, I make one criticism, that this good idea is being distributed in a rather meagre fashion. There is still plenty of scope for the further development of these management techniques down through the staffs. I should like to see the ordinary staff of the offices brought within the ambit of these management techniques, with the idea that the co-operation between the administrative staff would be more widely spread and that the general idea should be imparted to the staff of all grades that this is a great public service, a great common co-operative endeavour to give the whole community the benefit of whatever service the Post Office can provide for them The aim should be to give the most efficient possible service and to make available to the staff the best possible conditions in return for administering an efficient and helpful service of that kind. I hope that, emboldened by the success of what has already been done, the Post Office will proceed further in the extension of these management techniques, which are not only good for the Post Office but could be spread through the public service generally because of the manifold advantages to be gained by promoting that kind of co-operation and goodwill.

I am sorry I have to complain again this year about the Post Office uniform. The Post Office uniform is distinctive in this respect, that it is probably the worst kind of uniform used in the entire public service. It is a shoddy and dust-gathering type of material. It is a raggy-looking uniform when worn for a short time. You cannot press it or crease it and if by the exercise of a lot of muscularity with the iron, you manage to get a temporary crease, then the first shower of rain disturbs completely the whole shape of the uniform.

I should imagine the Post Office would be more pleased and that rational people generally in any clime would be more pleased to see their staff clad in a proper uniform. The result of Post Office staff wearing this shoddy uniform is that the postman vis-á-vis the public is not presenting the tidy appearance he would present if he got a decent class of uniform. I am not referring to the design of the uniform. It cannot be said as an argument that the staff organisation accepted this uniform. They accepted the design. They have been complaining for years about the inferior quality of the cloth used, and the Post Office ought to make a serious effort to provide a much better cloth than is being used at the moment.

Similarly, in respect of caps. I understand it is not possible to get a supply of postmen's caps from the manufacturers and I understand the reason is that no cap manufacturer would make this cap for the Post Office at the very low price which the Post Office offer. The result is that the cap manufacturer who will take these orders for caps is a manufacturer who wants to keep his machinery going during a valley period, but if there is any other order in sight, he will take the other order and by-pass the Post Office order for caps because he regards the price he is given as altogether unsatisfactory.

The Post Office ought to face up to the necessity for providing decent caps and providing them regularly for their staffs, instead of trying to induce manufacturers to accept orders for caps at a price which they do not regard as economically rewarding, with the result that the only cap that is available is a poor one and even that cannot be got with any regularity. The Post Office ought to get away from this miserly approach to the whole question of uniform, especially when so many members of the staff have to appear in public and would naturally like to take a pride in their appearance, the same as any other servant of the community.

I want to refer to Post Office buildings. The Board of Works circulates each year a list of the proposed works which it intends to carry out for the various Departments. The Post Office has the usual quota of building construction on its programme. What strikes one is that the amount of money spent in facing up to the problem of providing adequate accommodation for the ever-expanding Post Office is not nearly sufficient to undertake the work and that the small amounts allocated and the relatively small amount of work done each year results in the Post Office having to carry on their important public services in buildings which are inadequate, where there is insufficient staff accommodation and where the public endeavour to transact business under conditions far from congenial.

In his statement, the Minister referred to the fact that more administrative power would be given to the Post Office and that they would be entitled to exercise autonomy in fields where they were previously denied it. The Post Office should make a serious effort to get more authority than they have for their building programme. Even when the Post Office can be convinced—which is not easy without very cogent arguments—that there is need for very substantial extension of a post office premises they in turn must go to the Board of Works which, they find, are inadequately staffed for the job they have to do of looking after the affairs of all the Departments of State. The result is that the Post Office, although dealing virtually every hour of the day with the public—it is probably used by the public more than any other State building—have to fight their way to get their repairs and extensions carried out in competition with other Departments of State.

The Post Office should endeavour to secure more authority for building offices, repairing existing offices and carrying out painting and decoration when due instead of the present position of being absolutely dependent on the Board of Works. Everybody with experience of public life knows that if you rely on the Board of Works you will not get fire brigade service. Therefore, the Minister should try, in this case where it is so important to the Post Office organisation and development, to persuade the Department of Finance that the Post Office should be able to accelerate their building, their repair and renovation programme much more than at present. The process of going through the Board of Works, whatever may be said for it in theory, results in practice in much foot-dragging and the postponement of building and reconstruction jobs that could be done much quicker if the methods used were less circumlocutory.

Some head offices and salaried suboffices have residences attached. When a vacancy is advertised, the successful applicant is duly informed that he is being appointed to the vacant position. In most cases he does not belong to the town where the vacancy exists but his time for promotion has arrived and he may be selected for promotion to an office in a place of which he is not a native and where he has no roots. He sets out to find a house only to discover that he cannot get one or if there is one available the price is so outrageously high that he cannot think of buying it. Neither can he think of renting because of local competition which does not make it a proposition. He cannot buy it out of anything he would accumulate from his service in the Post Office. The result, in a number of cases, is that the person promoted to postmastership is compelled to decline the promotion even though he keenly desires it because there is no residence attached to the office.

A large number of offices have residences but some have none and where a person is appointed to an office of the latter kind unless he is miraculously lucky in getting a residence locally he must decline the appointment. He must then apply all over again when another vacancy arises.

The Department of Local Government have in a praiseworthy manner set up on organisation known as the Housing Agency and through it it is possible to have houses built for key employees in industries, for Gardai and other important persons of that kind. Surely the Post Office should take advantage of this housing agency by having residences erected in each town where there is no official Post Office residence at present so that when an officer is appointed on promotion to such a town it could be done in the knowledge that he could move into a residence there provided for him by the Post Office?

Being promoted to an office with a residence is a common feature of Post Office employment since the commencement of the Post Office as a State agency. In some cases, for one cause or another, residences were not provided but it seems to me that if the Post Office rightly promote people from one part of the country to another they should at least ensure that there is a residence available for the promoted officer. The Gardaí and private industries avail of this agency and seeing that the Post Office already know that people have been compelled to refuse promotion because of the lack of a residence, they ought to consider asking the agency to provide houses where necessary.

May I suggest that some effort should be made to accelerate the payments to retiring officers? The Post Office has records to tell them the day every officer reaches 65 years of age and in 98 per cent of the cases the man retires automatically on reaching that age. Therefore, there is no reason why his pension and lump sum could not be dealt with by the Post Office. On the day the officer retires, he could get his weekly pension and his lump sum automatically without having the case sent to the Department of Finance where it is one case in a number of others affecting other Government Departments. The person who retires does not emigrate. He is here in the country. He can always be sent for if there is any short payment of his pension and lump sum. If he is overpaid, it can be explained to him that there was an overpayment. But you can be sure that the prospects of fallibility on that side, as far as the administrative machine is concerned, are exceedingly small.

The Post Office ought to get authority to pay the pension and lump sum and then tell the Department of Finance: "Here is what we have paid" and get Finance to OK it subsequently. Instead of that, the pensioner has to wait or make an application for a payment on account, which may take a couple of weeks. In any case, people feel if they have served the State for 40 or 45 years, that they ought to get the pension on the day or the week after they go out, instead of being put in the position of applying for a payment on account of the lump sum due to them.

In some cases, the delay has been quite unjustified. You may even discover that when it came to Finance, the officers dealing with it were on sick leave or something else. The person still has to wait for his pension. The Post Office do all the calculation about the pension. It is merely checked by the Department of Finance. The checking does not reveal the most microscopic proportion of irregularity. Why cannot the Post Office get the authority to make the calculation, which they make at present, and, instead of sending the case to Finance for approval, pay themselves and let Finance give approval afterwards whenever they get time to do so?

I should like to ask the Minister what is the position in the Carlow post office. For many years, representations have been made to have a new building provided in Carlow. I do not know whether there are any difficulties between the local authority and the Post Office over a site, but certainly this is one of the smallest offices in Ireland for the volume of business transacted in it. It is located in the worst possible place. Although the Post Office have been hearing this complaint for years, all the inconveniences associated with the present office continue. I should like the Minister to say, first, when he hopes the building of the automatic exchange in Carlow will be completed; secondly, when he hopes the building of the new post office will commence; and thirdly, what is the approximate target date for completing the building. Certainly the matter ought to be taken in hands speedily, because everybody who has any experience of the present office knows it is absolutely unsuitable for the transaction of the volume of business which has to be dealt with there.

I want to come now to this question of telephone operating. I want to say at the outset it is the experience of everybody who has any experience whatever of telephone operating that the situation in the telephone exchanges today is more chaotic than it has ever been in their experience. If the Minister went to see retired officers in the telephone exchange and goes in with them to any of the exchanges in Dublin, they would tell him in their service they never saw anything like what is happening at present.

I do not know what sort of reports the Minister gets, but the viewpoint of everybody, whether they use the telephone from outside or operate it from inside, is that the Post Office telephone service is in a parlous condition. I want to give some evidence in support of this. I invite the Minister to accept a few challenges on this. Go in with somebody who knows what is happening. If a stranger goes into a post office, he might as well go into a nuclear station unless he knows what the meaning of the building is and what the significance of certain things are.

I shall start off by giving my own experience recently. I wanted to get a number in Kildare. I dialled the number. I could not get any answer from the number, although I knew there were people in the house at the time. I then dialled "10" and it pipped away 80 times, that is, 160 pips. When you remember that ten pips are supposed to be the normal speed for an answer, you can get a picture of the type of service run when I was trying to use the telephone—180 times, each pip twice. At the end of all this, I had not got any answer at all. I then dialled "31" to get the supervisor. I dialled and it called 20 times, but I got no answer from the supervisor. I thought perhaps I would be more lucky if I went back to "10". I went back to "10" and I called again—40 times it called—but there was no answer. I put it down. I waited for a while, took it up again and dialled "10". It pipped away for 32 times, 64 pips in all, and then I got an answer.

That is what you get in war conditions. It represents complete and absolute chaos. I do not know whether the Minister would attempt to give an answer to this kind of thing. You remember the Post Office say that normally you should get an answer after five calls, that is, ten pips. My marathon performance did not yield a single answer whatever. What is the reason for that? No soft talk from officials or smooth answers from the Minister in the House is going to explain what the situation is. There is chaos there. The whole objective in some cases seems to have been to put in more and more telephones, which meant, as the man said, a "worser" service for those who had telephones.

Mr. Hilliard

I pointed that out in a reply last year, that the addition of telephones ad lib. meant a worsening of the service until the whole business was cleared up.

Mr. Norton

I think there is more than that wrong. I do not think the telephone administration or equipment was at all prepared for the introduction of subscriber trunk dialling. However, STD was introduced and it has been responsible for bringing more chaos into the telephone administration than any one single act. The position now is that because of the chaos on the STD lines, the ordinary subscriber trying to get the telephonist is complaining about delay. Whatever way the thing has been arranged mechanically, the subscribers now share the "10" lines with the telephonist. You may find that the subscribers have all the "10" lines and the telephonist has none of them.

This ought to be said, and the Minister ought say it on behalf of his staff: the chaos is not due to the staff; it is due to an insufficiency of equipment and to a shortage of junctions and circuits. To some extent, it could be remedied by an increase in staff, but the basic problem is: too many installations on a service not at present capable of giving a good and efficient service. The second factor is the introduction of the STD at a time when the telephone service was not prepared to cater for it because of a deficiency in cables, a deficiency in equipment, in junctions and in circuits. These are the two main problems and the Post Office do not seem to have made the public aware of these difficulties. In fact, my complaint is that though the Post Office know they are giving a bad service, they are trying to conceal the fact from the public and I will prove that in a few minutes.

Here is an example of the experiment the Post Office are subjecting the people of Newbridge to at the moment. It was decided to introduce there subscriber trunk dialling. That was the greatest blister ever inflicted on the subscribers in that area. It has caused absolute chaos. A responsible man from Newbridge writes to me: No doubt you are aware of the extreme difficulty experienced with the new automatic telephone system which I believe to be Swedish and which has never before been put into operation anywhere in the world. It is unfortunate that we in Ireland have to be the dogs on which this system is being tried out.

This man goes on to say that no incoming call can be received at all and only on occasions can an outgoing call be made. More often than not, there are four subscribers on the line at once and nothing can be heard. This man's letter goes on:

It is most frustrating and costly and I hope something can be done to correct it.

Another gentleman was much more methodical in his complaint inasmuch as he took times and dates of the service, or lack of service, he got from the Post Office. He says he dialled Dublin on such and such a date and he got Letterkenny. From approximately 11.30 a.m. to 2 p.m., the engaged tone is heard when the receiver is lifted. No telephone calls can be made from this man's telephone and no calls can be received.

He tells of dialling Kildare to transact business and hearing two people discussing who stole timber from them. He dialled Kildare seven times between 2.7 o'clock and 2.44 p.m. and got the engaged tone. Later, he found out that the line was not engaged on any of these occasions. He then lists complaints of all sorts. On another occasion, he dialled Dublin and got Blessington; he dialled Dublin and got the Curragh Camp; and while talking, a caller from Galway came on the line and said he was looking for the Curragh. He dialled another Dublin number and got Sligo; he dialled Naas and got Clane.

If some saboteur had been dropped out of the skies to make war on the telephone system and had succeeded in installing this kind of a telephone system around the Curragh Camp, our chief military establishment, and reported this result, when he went back to his own country, he would be decorated. That is the kind of thing these people in Newbridge are suffering. There is chaos and dislocation of business in every possible way. If an unfortunate linesman made the slightest mistake in fixing up a telephone, he would be writing explanations for a week, but when the top brass get to doing things and make this mess, everybody expresses regret but nothing is done.

I have another instance of a lady who wrote to the Minister saying that night after night for the past six weeks her hotel guests have been trying to make cross-Channel calls between 7 p.m. and 11.30 p.m. It takes them half an hour even to get through to the exchange. Dialling 10 is useless. This lady complained that the coin box of the telephone had become blocked by a coin. Nothing was done during all that day. She writes:

Last night 16 persons from England, staying in the hotel, wanted to make telephone calls but could not use the box because a coin was stuck in it.

A complaint was made to the Minister's office on 28th March. Now, well over a month has gone by and nothing has transpired except that the matter is being inquired into.

I said earlier I was afraid the Minister did not know about these complaints. When a number of people made application to the Post Office for new telephones, they were told that there was no hope of getting telephones for at least 12 to 18 months and that there was no purpose in annoying the Post Office with applications. The Post Office added that when the period mentioned had elapsed, everything would be all right. That is understandable if somebody, during the 12 to 18 months, is doing something to provide the conditions which would make it possible to instal telephones at the end of the period, but in fact nothing was done during the 18 months. What happened was that the Post Office lumped out to the applicants a bundle of agreements to sign and the applicants signed them thinking that once they did so, they would have telephones in next to no time. This happens despite the fact that the Post Office had not laid cables and therefore knew very well they could not provide the people with the service they had promised.

Another instance was quoted to me where the Post Office were engaged in taking lines into the exchange of a head office from a number of sub-exchanges. The trouble was that the head office was not able to dispose of the calls they were already getting. What you need in that area is one other line to Dublin from that head office. I said earlier the Post Office were even concealing their own shortcomings, so ashamed of them were they.

Here is an instance which can be verified. Recently, the Cork telephone exchange was unobtainable from 9 o'clock in the morning until 10.30. There were no outlets to Cork. You can get outlets to Cork, apart from the direct line. You can through other places, but all the direct or indirect lines were out of order. Notwithstanding that, instead of putting up the red flag and letting subscribers know that there was a substantial delay on calls to Cork, the post office merrily went on booking calls and never once disclosed that there was any abnormal delay on the Cork lines. This went on and the staff urged that they should post delays on Cork so that subscribers would not be coming back every 15 or 20 minutes to know "what about my call". All this was causing confusion. This went on the whole day. The result was that every subscriber who had booked a call complained half a dozen times and these long delay dockets, which are issued when a person comes back a second time to ask about a delay, caused such confusion that there was nothing but chaos on the Cork line that day.

The result was that calls booked at 10 o'clock in the morning to Cork on the particular day had not been put through at 5.30 in the evening. Of course, at that stage, practically all of them would have been cancelled by subscribers who had to go home from their business, but never once did the post office say that there was a delay. Why not tell the subscriber that he has no chance of getting a call through? What is the purpose of concealing it? Surely the first thing a subscriber should be told is that there is a delay and the length of the delay so that, if necessary, he can make other plans. But if he books a call to Cork, in the expectation that he can talk with a friend inside half an hour or an hour and then seven or eight hours afterwards, he has not been able to get in touch with Cork, what can one think of an administration of that kind which conceals the vital facts from the subscribers?

If the Minister wants to remedy the position in the telephone exchange, he should take his courage in his hands and say frankly: "With our present equipment, we are not able to give a satisfactory service." He should take his courage in his hands, too, and stop the STD until such time as the equipment is able to take it, and by every means that he can, he should try to get sufficient trunk lines and junctions to take the traffic which is offering to-day. There are not sufficient trunk lines and there are not sufficient junctions to operate an efficient telephone service. There should be more trunk lines and more junctions.

Somebody should take the whole staff position into hands because it is being run on a panic basis. Staff are being taken off day duties and switched to night duties, as if that is a remedy for anything. The exchange is understaffed during the day because people are taken from day duties and put on to night duties. There may be some master strategy attached to that but if there is, it is not obvious to me. While the business community wants to work by day, it should have sufficient staff at its disposal. What is the purpose of taking staff off day duties and putting them on night duty? I cannot see it. Those who operate the telephone system do not appear to understand it either. Within the office, staff are pulled from one position and sent to another and then sent chasing back and are moved around in this sort of fire brigade fashion to stop the worst attacks in the place. That is not smooth administration at all and I do not think we are going to get results from that kind of thing.

The staff feel that because of the silence of the Post Office in not being willing to say what is the basic trouble —shortage of trunks, shortage of circuits, or shortage of junctions, or inadequate equipment generally—that people are inclined to blame the staff of the Post Office. They ought not get behind the staff. They ought to say: "We are responsible. Responsibility is ours at top level. We have not got the equipment. We cannot blame those whom we expect to operate the telephone service." If that were done, some effort would be made to enable the public to understand. If they are told the facts, they will understand, as they have to understand with the buses and everything else, unfortunately. But to give the impression that there was nothing wrong with the equipment or administration, when in fact there was a state of affairs in the exchange that has not been there for many years, is wrong and very senior operators will tell you that the present situation bewilders them. Obviously if you have got that state of affairs the staff must be harassed.

The Post Office appear to have no remedy. I know it is not a palatable thing to have to do but you never get into trouble for being honest. It may be a matter of just being temporarily unpopular to be honest but it might be better for the Minister to say that the position of the telephone equipment is such that the introduction of additional lines may not be possible, except at the price of worsening the existing system. Some emergency arrangement should be made with some other country to get the equipment which is badly needed. Even with the supplies of equipment they will get, it will be a considerable time before it can be installed and brought to the most advantageous use, but it should be done. It should also be stated that the staff are in no way responsible for the chaotic conditions in the exchange, which can be verified by a visit to the exchange by anybody who knows anything about the operation of an exchange.

Mr. Gibbons

I merely want to refer to a speech made by Deputy Crotty on 4th April, 1963, in volume 201, No. 8, at column 1103 and the following columns. In order to elucidate what I am going to talk about, I will quote something of what he said, as follows:

I had a case in my own county not so far outside the town where a man was appointed as auxiliary postman. Apparently he was the only one in the exchange recommended by a Fianna Fáil Deputy. I did not recommend him but apparently it was discovered after his appointment that his father or somebody in his family was a Fine Gael supporter. The result was that although this man had been measured for a uniform, he was told he should re-apply for the position.

Further on, he said:

The result was that this married man who had been appointed and had carried on the job for two or three months was told to re-apply. He did so, but inevitably—

he says,

some single boy in the area was appointed and the married man told he was no longer required.

Deputy Crotty expanded on that further and if it were true, as the poet said, it were a grievous fault. He paints a picture of a married man, presumably a poor man, since for applicants for this job the Department takes into consideration their economic status. Deputy Crotty's picture is of this poor unfortunate man whose politics, having being discovered, was unceremoniously bundled out of the job he had legitimately got. As I say, if that were true, it were a grievous fault.

The first thing Deputy Crotty and everybody else should consider is the economic position of the various applicants suitable for such a job. I must inform the House of the facts, although I am reluctant to discuss the private affairs of ordinary people in this House. When Deputy Crotty dragged their private affairs across the floor of this House some weeks ago, he made them the object of ridicule and scorn and, by inference, too, he attacked the personal integrity of the man who eventually did get the job.

The father of the man who was originally appointed has a farm valued at £131 12s. He has since spent over £3,000 buying an extra farm in the area where the post office is located, presumably for his son. We must admit that the economic circumstances of that applicant are by no means bad. I can speak with absolute certainty because the area is in my native parish. This man not only owns a very valuable farm but is also a very wealthy man because he always farms the land well and has always been able to produce a great lot of livestock and make a good deal of money. It is not so long since I saw some of his bullocks in Kilkenny making £100 apiece.

The other person in question is one of a family of seven who comes from a seven-acre farm. Of this family of seven, two are invalids and they are recipients of social welfare benefits. Deputy Crotty also suggested the man was married all the time and left a vague suggestion that as normally in such cases, there would be a family. He was first appointed on the 1st March, 1961, and he married on 25th April, 1961. It is interesting to note that the person he married was the local postmistress who is a farmer of some substance in her own right. It is an idyllic situation that while the postmistress's swain would be out delivering the letters, she would look after the old age pensions and that any competition from genuinely unemployed people in the area should be overlooked.

I am very glad it was discovered that the appointment was incorrect. It would be a scandalous thing if the original appointment had been allowed to stand and I must be forgiven for the strong suspicion that his appointment in the first place smacked very dangerously of a ready-up because I have had complaints from unemployed men in the locality that at no time was any indication given in the locality by the Post Office that such a vacancy would ever arise.

Another consideration that would be of relevance is that Deputy Crotty's aggrieved person came from nearly five miles away, from a parish in a different locality altogether and while he was registered at the employment exchange he was, in fact, employed all day every day with his father on the farm. I think the House is quite well aware that it was never intended that employment of this kind should be reserved for people of such considerable substance and wealth, even in the romantic circumstances of this case. It is quite a charming little story of boy meets postmistress and becomes postman but, since the issue was justice, since there was some emigration from the locality and since there was some genuine unemployment in the area, the Minister or whatever officer of his Department caused the reappointment to be made acted very wisely and very justly and a serious scandal was prevented.

I would not have raised this matter at all in the Dáil, were it not for the intense local publicity this affair got in our local Press. The heading in one of the local papers in Kilkenny was: "Deputy Exposes Post Office Scandal". That was blazoned across the front page of that paper. Inadvertently, he did expose a scandal and the scandal has been undone, I am glad to say. If this appointment had been allowed to stand, it would have been a veritable scandal. There is another little bit of Deputy Crotty's speech I want to mention before I finish. He says at column 1104, Volume 201, of the Official Report of the 4th April, 1963:

How can the ordinary person have respect for Ministers, whatever Government are in office, when he hears of these things happening? It lowers the status of Ministers to have that sort of thing going on. I do not believe it will affect the election one way or another...

Then he advises one and all to grow up and have sense. It would be a very salutary thing if Deputy Crotty in his old age would take his own advice and have a bit of sense.

Mr. Crotty

My name has been raised and I am entitled to state the facts of the case. Deputy Gibbons has not challenged the facts I gave to the Minister.

Acting Chairman (Mr. MacCarthy)

I think Deputy Crotty has spoken already on this Estimate.

Mr. Sweetman

Is he not entitled to make a personal explanation after the number of times his name has been mentioned by Deputy Gibbons?

Acting Chairman

If he wishes to make a short explanation——

Mr. Gibbons

I submit that it was necessary for me, in clarification of the allegations made by Deputy Crotty, to refer to him and to his speech. I made no personal reference to Deputy Crotty at all. I merely referred to the speech he made.

Mr. Sweetman

The last remark was personal anyway.

Acting Chairman

The Deputy may make a short personal explanation.

Mr. Crotty

Deputy Gibbons has not disputed the facts as I gave them. The man had been measured for a suit and was appointed. He was then dismissed and a single man taken on. He has not disputed the fact that this man was recommended by a Fianna Fáil TD, Deputy Medlar. It was a spleen between Deputy Medlar and Deputy Gibbons which caused this man to be dismissed.

Mr. Hilliard

That is not correct.

Acting Chairman

That is not a personal explanation.

Mr. Crotty

I did not give his name.

Mr. Gibbons

I must object to Deputy Crotty's last remark about a spleen between Deputy Medlar and Deputy Gibbons.

Mr. Crotty

That is quite right.

Mr. Gibbons

I can assure the Chair, Deputy Crotty and the House, that nothing could be further from the truth. At no time did I know who recommended the man. All I want to say is that at an early stage, Deputy Crotty's client did come to me and asked me to recommend him for the position and I told him I could do no such thing.

Mr. Crotty

The Deputy had him dismissed. Deputy Medlar had him appointed and Deputy Gibbons had him dismissed.

Mr. Hilliard

That is not so.

(Interruptions.)

Acting Chairman

We will not pursue the matter.

Mr. Everett

Because of the unnecessary delay in providing telephones in my constituency. I was very pleased to read the Minister's statement that installations would be carried out no matter how recently the applications had been made. The Minister knows what has happened in Glendalough. There were complaints that some people were not getting facilities, while others were, because they used influence. I would have no objection to that if other residents of the area got equal treatment. I sent a letter to an applicant drawing attention to the Minister's statement. I said that while the Department were working in the district, I was sure he would be supplied with a telephone. He wrote to me to thank me for sending the good news from the Minister, but he pointed out that they had erected wires two and a half miles long, and had passed by his door and left him without a phone.

In one area in Wicklow with a population of 700, there is no kiosk. About 18 months ago, the urban council sent a resolution to the Department urging the erection of a kiosk for the benefit of the population, in the event of sick calls or an emergency at night. After some time, they received a letter promising that two kiosks would be erected, but suggesting putting one in an unsuitable place. The council pointed out that the site was not suitable, and would not meet the requirements of the people, but the Department adhered to their original decision. I am satisfied they had not the equipment and were only making Civil Service excuse by suggesting a place which was not suitable for a kiosk.

I wrote the Department and pointed out that the kiosk would be about a minute's walk from the post office, and about 15 minutes' walk from the place where we wanted it. I pointed out that if they erected a kiosk there without the authority of the council, it would be of no benefit to the people. There are also six private telephones beside the place where they wanted to erect the kiosk, but the Department still adhered to their original decision. Would the Minister give a direction to the Department to meet the officials of the urban council and have a site selected?

A statement was made that there are over 10,000 applications for telephones. I agree with Deputy Norton that it is best to tell the people straight and fair that we have not got the equipment. I read an article in an English paper in which the writer alleged that the reason for the demand for telephones in Ireland was that the Murphys want to keep up with the Joneses. That is not the case in Ireland. In rural Ireland, a farmer may require a telephone because if he needs parts of machinery, he does not want to lose a day going into town to get them. If he had a telephone, he would not have to do so.

We hear complaints about delays of up to five hours. There were complaints about the wires between Wicklow and Dublin, and the excuse given to Deputy O'Higgins by the Minister was the storm and the snow. We had snow in the west and in the south, but the roads are clear from Wicklow to Bray and I believe many of the wires are still not in working order. We have been promised an automatic service, but I wonder when we will get it, and I wonder will we have less trouble with it, and will the Minister have fewer headaches. If there are detectors along the line, the engineers should easily be able to find out where the fault is.

There are 300 extra employees in the Post Office. We are proud of that fact but I should like to know is there a youth training scheme in operation. We want to provide plenty of employment for the youth of the country. We have very competent and experienced men in the engineering section but if they are very busy, surely a local man could connect the wires?

There are about 20 telephonists with 10 or 15 years' service who are not yet established. They have given good and loyal service, and they should be given the same facilities as the 160 who were established by interview within the past couple of years. It is very embarrassing for them to be still juniors after 15 years' service and training the young girls who passed the interview. Would the Department of Finance not agree that they should be given the same rights as the 160 girls who have been taken on in the past couple of years?

I want to appeal to the Department in connection with unnecessary delays. One may get a letter from the Department after 12 months that the matter is receiving attention. One letter I received was fairly true. It said they had not the equipment. That was sufficient to satisfy a person for the time being. I am satisfied that they are taking very old equipment out of places in Dublin, for use in the country. The people in the country do not want anything special. They merely want the same facility as is being given in Dublin. Various big concerns in cities get privileges that are denied to the people in rural areas. The people in the rural areas want similar facilities.

The Minister should take his courage in his hands and get in the necessary machinery and equipment. I realise that it is difficult at times to procure the equipment but if we spent over £1 million last year and £1 this year on the provision of extra equipment, we should be in a position, with the staff we have, to carry out the Minister's idea of clearing all the arrears in each district. If there are 10,000 applications, I quite appreciate that it will take a considerable time to provide a telephone in all cases. If the announcement is made that it will be a year or two, as the case may be, before other demands can be satisfied, the people will know where they stand. I should not like anybody to have the impression that people want a telephone merely to keep up with their neighbours when in fact they want a telephone as a matter of necessity. The majority of the people in rural areas want a phone for business purposes.

We are glad to see the development of the telephone service. I would ask the Minister to consider the points I have made. May I express the hope that as a result of the meeting between officials of the Department and officials of the urban council, the kiosk to which I have already referred will be erected in the position most convenient to the 700 people in the district and will not be erected on a site within one minute's walk of the new post office?

Mr. Hilliard

I have been very frank with the public and with this House in regard to the telephone service ever since I became Minister for Posts and Telegraphs. I do not think that in any of my public statements in the House or outside it, I have tried to mislead the public in relation to the inadequacy of the telephone service to meet the demands made upon it from the time I came to have an examination made of the situation for myself.

In the first year I came to this office the Engineering Branch had succeeded in creating a record of telephone installations. I was not too long in this office, as I explained last year, when I came to realise that we could not in any circumstances attempt to continue the installation of new telephone lines at that rate until we arrived at a time when we had caught up, to some extent at least, on the backlog of essential engineering work that had been left on the long finger for a number of years. I explained in the House last year the steps I was taking to deal with the situation as I and the Department of Posts and Telegraphs found it. That situation was not of their making. I want to make that clear. As I develop my reply to the very vigorous criticism offered here by Deputy Norton and by others in relation to the telephone service, I hope to convince the House that the Engineering Branch and the Department of Posts and Telegraphs, generally, are doing everything they possibly can within the resources available to them to have a telephone service in the country equal to the demand put upon it.

Let me say at this stage that whatever difficulties we are facing now and whatever difficulties people have in making calls or getting speedy answers, whatever difficulties we have in relation to the general traffic of telephone calls throughout the country, generally speaking, these difficulties cannot be attributed to the operating staff, to the telephonists or people engaged in this business. They are dealing with a situation that is very troublesome for them to deal with because of the difficulties that have arisen in relation to the telephone service.

I want to say, as I have said last year, that I am well aware that there has been a huge increase in recent years in the rate of demand for new telephones and in the traffic requirements of existing subscribers. Let me point out that there is no magic wand available to me that would enable me as Minister to meet these increased demands at short notice. Every line requires an independent circuit from the subscriber's premises, not merely to the nearest pole or cable route, but all the way to the exchange from which service will be given. In addition, each line requires individual apparatus at the exchange, as well as the general exchange equipment, and for traffic between exchanges telephone outlets in adequate numbers have to be provided. Expansion of the telephone network involves the building and extension of exchanges and the provision of new underground, overhead and radio routes.

The effective planning and completion of these development works is necessarily a very lengthy business. If capital is available as needed, there is no great difficulty about keeping ahead of the requirements, but if it is unduly restricted the amount available is necessarily devoted to shortterm needs and adequate provision of spare capacity necessary to meet even normal growth is impracticable. As everyone knows, the capital available up to quite recently has not been unlimited, but there has been a notable increase in recent years, and expenditure in the current financial year is planned on a basis of £4½ million as against £3½ million and £2½ million in the two preceding years. For the reasons already given the impact of much of this increased expenditure has not yet been felt but it may be accepted that large scale improvements to the telephone system are in course of provision and there is practically no area in the country in which extensive new works have not been commenced or contracted for, or at least approved in principle.

Aside from obstacles created by restriction of capital in the past, it has also been necessary to contend with various other serious difficulties arising from such matters as the recruitment and training of additional skilled personnel. Staff experienced in telephone work are not freely available; consequently it is necessary to spend a comparatively long time on the training of new recruits before they become really effective.

One of the major schemes designed to afford relief to the telephone system and an improved standard of service to subscribers, is the conversion of manual exchanges to automatic working. A programme of large scale automatisation was put in hand some time ago, but as many Deputies are aware it has suffered a set back caused by unexpected technical difficulties which have not yet been fully resolved. Deputy Sweetman and Deputy Norton made reference to the difficulties experienced in relation to the system in the constituency of Kildare. While I am not at this moment in a position to give a firm forecast in the matter, I am satisfied that we are nearing a solution to the troubles that have been experienced in this regard, and that it will be possible to resume without much delay the programme for the conversion to automatic working of a substantial additional number of exchanges.

In my opening statement I mentioned the progress that has been recorded in recent years in the extension and modernisation of the telephone system and I think that Deputies should not lose sight of this when speaking of the current difficulties which the service is meeting. As I said in my opening speech the number of exchange lines has been doubled in the past ten years and quadrupled since the end of the war, the mileage of trunk circuits has been greatly increased and the automatic system has been extended to 75 per cent of all subscribers in the country.

Several Deputies mentioned the delay in connection of new telephones. I have previously pointed out that the addition of large numbers of new subscribers to a system not yet fully geared to give them a satisfactory service would not serve any useful purpose. The rate of connection of new lines planned for the current year, however, is well in excess of the expected rate of demand, and I am reasonably confident therefore that a reduction of the waiting list will be achieved before very long.

Deputy Geoghegan referred to inequality of charges for telephone calls in certain cases. I think that it will be accepted that any group charging scheme will include some apparent anomalies and I can confidently claim that the general level of charges in the scheme that has been introduced represents very good value indeed to the telephone user. A feature of the scheme was a substantial increase in the number of places within local call range of each exchange.

Several Deputies referred to the need for additional public telephones and kiosks. The position is that a public telephone is provided in every area in which there is a Post Office. In arranging this, frequently at a loss to the service as a whole, my Department has gone a fair distance towards providing public telephone facilities throughout the country. Concerning kiosks, the general rule is that they are provided in places where it is estimated that they will pay their way but it is the case that nearly all towns and villages with a population of 200 or more have at least one kiosk, and some smaller centres are now being supplied. Altogether over 1,000 kiosks have been erected, including 600 in the Provinces. The Finglas area, which was specifically mentioned in this connection, already has twelve kiosks and the early provision of two more is planned.

I must, of course, balance the needs of all areas, particularly when considering the provision of facilities that are not really remunerative. The Post Office may not be quite as well off as many appear to think: Deputy Crotty mentioned £1,880,000 as the surplus earned by the telephone service last year, but in fact the figure quoted relates to the surplus earned in the past five years.

Mr. Crotty

It was five years I mentioned.

Mr. Hilliard

It is not recorded.

Mr. Crotty

It may not be, but I mentioned five years.

Mr. Hilliard

The question of providing additional services such as the reverse charge arrangement that was suggested by Deputy Mullen is kept under review but I feel that there should be no hesitation about accepting generally that the staff and capital resources available should not be diverted to provision of extras of this sort until the fundamental needs of the community have been more nearly fully supplied.

In regard to the several references that have been made to the unsatisfactory standard of service on existing lines, I think it only fair to the operating staffs to mention that in the very recent past, a period that is now fresh in the minds of Deputies, the telephone system has been working under a very severe strain caused by the nationwide bus strike. This strike has increased enormously the public demand on the telephone service and fairly serious congestion of the automatic equipment has resulted. People who would ordinarily have little occasion to use the telephone have now become substantial telephone users and the overloading of the automatic exchanges and other equipment has turned the traffic towards the operating staff as a result of which there has been at times fairly extensive jamming of the system. Everything possible is being done to minimise the inconvenience being caused by these temporary difficulties, but some degree of upset is unavoidable.

The bus strike was not, of course, the only thing that occurred to make matters difficult for the telephone service in the recent past. Early in the year the network generally was affected by widespread storm damage. Permanent repairs took a considerable time and involved the diversion of engineering staff from their normal duties in various areas throughout the country. Furthermore, there was a number of breaks in the cross-Channel cables and in the internal coaxial cables which could not have been foreseen or prevented in advance. All these factors entailed great difficulties for the service and threw heavy burdens on the operating staffs.

Deputy Norton referred to delays in answering at the Dublin Exchanges and it cannot be denied that the attention obtainable from the manual position has at times been far less prompt than I would like it to be. I wish to say, however, that the great majority of calls to the exchange were answered promptly and, although I much regret the inconvenience experienced by some callers who were abnormally delayed, it would be unfair to the service and to the staff concerned to infer that these experiences were typical and related to anything more than a small proportion of calls made.

Mr. Norton

What the Minister is telling me is a fake. I will produce the evidence if he wants it. We will say no more about it, but I hope it will not happen again.

Mr. Hilliard

I respect Deputy Norton's opinion on matters of this kind because of his long experience with Post Office workers and I will be prepared to examine any suggestions he may wish to make.

Mr. Norton

My concern is that the Minister should not get the return of speed of answering based upon a meter which is not allowed to operate normally. The Minister gets a lopsided view because he is told things are right when they are not right.

Mr. Hilliard

I fully appreciate, however, the inconvenience and frustration occasioned to individual callers who are left without attention for undue periods and no effort will be spared to reduce waiting time to the minimum possible. Unfortunately, no satisfactory system has been devised of queuing calls to ensure that they will be answered in strict order and it is not possible to eliminate the occasional "unfortunate" call which suffers disproportionate delay.

In so far as the accuracy and significance of the records taken of the speed of answer obtainable from the exchanges is concerned, I wish to say, however, that these records are based on tests made scientifically by electric meters which give the average speed of answer on a sampling basis on calls made to the exchange through various inlets.

Mr. Norton

You can make the meter operate any way you want it to operate. What about a demonstration? My point is that the operators know the meter is wrong but the supervisor does not know it.

Mr. Hilliard

I have no reason to doubt the accuracy of the returns taken by methods used and approved by other administrations as well as ourselves and which are supported and endorsed by independent observations made directly by supervisory staff.

Deputy Norton referred to the difficulty in regard to calls to Cork. On a recent occasion delay was caused by a succession of breaks in the main cable. Traffic was diverted to alternative routes which were inadequate for a no-delay service. I am told that callers were advised by the operators that there was liable to be heavy delay on their calls.

Mr. Norton

The operators were told not to tell subscribers there was any delay.

Mr. Hilliard

I shall inquire into that.

Deputy Sweetman referred to the unsatisfactory operation of Naas telephone exchange. The bulk of complaint received related to service given during the hours when Naas exchange is switched to Dublin. I arranged just before Easter to extend the hours of service at Naas so that the period during which the exchange is switched to Dublin is confined to the hours of minimum traffic. This should improve matters considerably. Furthermore, the exchange equipment is being extended at present and the new apparatus will be in operation shortly

In so far as the telegraph traffic is concerned, Deputy Norton asked me to give the percentage of decline in relation to the internal traffic as against the external traffic. Roughly speaking, there was a decline of just over five per cent in the internal traffic as compared with a decrease of nearly eight per cent in traffic with Great Britain.

Mr. Norton

That is, originating in Great Britain?

Mr. Hilliard

Going to Great Britain. I come now to the question of the Carlow exchange. The question of the long delay in the erection of the Carlow exchange was raised here by Deputy Governey and by Deputy Norton. We have experienced delay in relation to the site. A site in Burrin Street, Carlow, was acquired in 1948 for the erection of a new post office and telephone exchange. Progress was bedevilled by a county council scheme to run a road through part of our site. This involved a complicated exchange of properties and completion of the legal formalities has taken an extraordinarily long time. The Department is not to blame for the delay.

In November, 1962, the Department approved a sketch plan providing for a new post office, an automatic telephone exchange and an area engineering headquarters. The Office of Public Works, however, intends to utilise the site to provide not alone for our requirements but also for those of other Government Departments — an employment exchange and office accommodation for the Revenue Commissioners and for the Department of Agriculture.

It is intended to build the automatic telephone exchange in advance of the remainder of the scheme and tenders for the exchange have been invited. I cannot give a firm forecast for progress on the balance of the scheme but it is hoped that the Office of Public Works may be in a position to put the work out to tender about the end of this financial year.

Deputy Tully, Deputy Crinion and other Deputies raised the question of pensions for auxiliary postmen. This would require legislation. It is a matter which concerns the Civil Service as a whole. Furthermore it is a matter entirely for the Minister for Finance but, as Minister for Posts and Telegraphs and as a member of the Government, I would not wish to shelve my share of the responsibility in that way. There are difficulties in formulating such a scheme for auxiliary postmen especially when you take into consideration the manner in which auxiliary postmen are recruited into the Civil Service; the ages at which they are recruited and the classes of the community from which they come.

The question of the appointment of auxiliary postmen was raised during the debate. It is a fact that the Minister appoints the auxiliary postman. That is the system as it stands. I accept responsibility for every appointment I make to this office of auxiliary postman. We do not hear of the great majority of the cases in which appointments are made. Everybody seems to be satisfied—the persons concerned, the people in the locality and members of this House.

There are parts of this country where no representations are made by Deputies or anybody else in relation to the appointment of an auxiliary postman. There are areas in which we find it difficult to find people to accept the post of auxiliary postman. The employment position is so good in those areas that men are not interested in accepting the job of auxiliary postman. There are other areas where the representation made does not amount to much. The applicants for the post go to the local Deputy. The local Deputy just writes in about it. They have no real interest in the matter at all. They accept whoever the Minister appoints from the list supplied from the employment exchange.

There are other areas where the competition is very keen and where people go to extremes to make representations to the Minister. They get to know the members of his family. They get to know his relatives to the third and fourth degree. They go to Deputies on every side of the House. We have allegations bandied across the floor of this House that appointments are made on a political basis in some of these cases. If Deputies had the job of reading the confidential information supplied to me in some cases by the applicant himself when he makes his claim to the employment exchange they would realise the full position. When you go into this question of making the appointment you have to take into consideration something more than the general Government direction in relation to the social status of the candidates concerned.

It is a fact that smallholders in this country are auxiliary postmen. I appoint them regularly. The job of auxiliary postman fits into the life of the rural community in that way. The hours of work are not a full week's work in some cases. It has been pointed out by some Deputies that the rate of pay is per hour. In some of the posts, the number of hours worked per week may be 18, 26, and so on. In others of them, the auxiliary postman earns a fair week's wages in comparison with what agricultural labourers earn in the locality in which he lives because the post has sufficient hours to bring up the pay to that standard.

We hear Deputies making reference to farmers being appointed auxiliary postmen. However, the farms they occupy are of such a low valuation that the wages they earn as auxiliary postmen are in addition to the family income and help to keep these men and their families on the land in rural Ireland. That is something that is creditable in this regard. I would not wish in any circumstances to appoint as auxiliary postman a person who was too well off, unless I had to do it and there are cases in which there is only one applicant and sometimes he is very well off. Deputy Crotty raised this question and said he wrote to me. He wrote to the Department and I did not see his letter.

Mr. Crotty

I wrote to the Minister.

Mr. Hilliard

It was not written personally to me.

Mr. Crotty

When I addressed it to the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, I took it for granted the letter would go to the Minister.

Mr. Hilliard

The Deputy should have put my name on it.

Mr. Crotty

I did. I put "M. Hilliard" on it.

Mr. Hilliard

No, the Deputy wrote to the Department. The original appointment was made by the Department, and not by me, and without any representation.

Mr. Crotty

I thought the Minister said he makes the appointments.

Mr. Hilliard

Wait until I finish. The Department sanctioned the appointment because, in error, they believed on the evidence before them at the time that there was only one applicant. Where that happens, the file does not come to me. The appointment is made by the Department.

Mr. Crotty

That is fair enough.

Mr. Hilliard

Subsequently, it transpired that there was another applicant. Before this man was appointed at all, the name of a boy 17½ years of age was submitted by the exchange but he could not be appointed because of his age. The local postmistress went looking for a postman and the man Deputy Crotty spoke about was appointed by the Department——

Mr. Crotty

On the recommendation of Deputy Medlar.

Mr. Hilliard

It does not matter on whose representation. I am not at liberty to discuss representations made by anybody in this matter. The exchange then supplied the names of three people and eventually I appointed the man to that post——

Mr. Crotty

And one of them was already measured for the job.

Mr. Hilliard

I am making no excuses for appointing him.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.