Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 27 Feb 1964

Vol. 207 No. 13

Committee on Finance. - Vote 44—Posts and Telegraphs.

Minister for Posts and Telegraphs (Mr. Hilliard)

I move:

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £330,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1964, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs and of certain other Services administered by that Office, and for payment of Grants-in-Aid.

This Supplementary Estimate is mainly required to meet (a) unforeseen additional payments for the conveyance of mails; (b) increased telephone development; and (c) an increase in the Grant to the Broadcasting Authority consequent on increases made in radio and television licence fees since the original Estimate was framed.

Taking the subheads affected in order and giving the main reasons for the excesses, the sum of £66,000 required under Subhead A is the result of additional overtime in the mails and telephone services and of higher social welfare contributions. Mail traffic, particularly at Christmas, has been heavier than expected and there will of course be a corresponding improvement in revenue. The overtime on telephones has been partly on the engineering side, and partly on the accounting side where further mechanisation has been introduced to enable the rapidly growing volume of accounts to be more efficiently and economically handled. On Subhead B, £16,300 is needed to meet the cost of additional travelling and subsistence incurred mainly through the replanning of engineering work to speedup the provision of new trunk circuits throughout the country. On Subhead D, £96,400 is required because of extra mail traffic by rail and air, changes in the incidence of airmail accounts falling due for payment in the year, and the adoption of a monthly instead of a quarterly payment basis for a large CIE contract, causing two additional monthly payments to become due this year instead of next.

A further £34,200 is being sought under Subhead E to meet the cost of extra postal vans required for rural services, and also the cost of additional purchases of stores on behalf of other Government Departments. On Subhead F £109,000 more is required to cover increased purchases of engineering stores to provide for the expanded programme of telephone trunk line construction. When introducing the Telephone Capital Bill in November last, I told the House that this year's programme was being revised to give priority to the provision of additional trunk circuits needed for current and future expansion.

The additional £235,000 being sought under Subhead K. 1 is to enable my Department to pay over to the Broadcasting Authority the extra amount which will be collected in the current financial year as a result of the increase in the broadcasting licence fees as from 1st November, 1963. Figures of actual receipts from licence fees and expenses of collection for the current year will not be available until after the 31st March. Accordingly the payment to the Authority under Subhead K. 1 will be an estimated figure, and an adjustment will have to be made later when precise figures of net licence receipts are available.

The new fees of £1 5s. 0d. (sound) and £5 (combined sound and television) were fixed following careful consideration of representations made by the Authority regarding the inadequacy of its revenue. In 1962/63 the Authority received a subsidy of £150,000 to bridge the gap between sound broadcasting income and expenditure. Only £71,600 of the aggregate subsidies of £500,000 authorised by the Act remained unissued on 31st March, 1963, and this amount was clearly inadequate as costs have been increasing. The increase of 5s. in the sound licence and in the sound portion of the combined licence will bring in an extra £130,000 in a full year. This will fall somewhat short of the amount required to cover the present deficit on sound broadcasting. The Authority also wishes to effect some improvements in sound broadcasting and the recently announced decision on a VHF service will increase expenditure by about £50,000 a year. Under the Act the Authority is required to become self-supporting as soon as possible and the difference between expenditure and receipts attributable to sound broadcasting will therefore have to be made good from the Authority's general revenue.

The Authority's accounts for the year ending 31st March, 1963, showed a deficit on television of £17,000. This was very small in relation to a total expenditure on that service of £1,130,000. The Authority expected, however, that expenditure would increase faster than income from advertisements and licence fees. Part of the increase in expenditure is inescapable. For example, expenditure in 1963-64 will be substantially higher than the 1962-63 figure because of the extension of television to the provinces, and the Authority will have to meet higher charges by way of interest and depreciation as its capital construction programme nears completion. The Authority also desired to improve the present level of programmes. It was anxious to reduce its dependency on films of American origin and to enlarge the scope of its film purchases; to give greater prominence to drama; to undertake more feature programmes with deeper coverage of the country as a whole; to increase the content of home-produced programmes and to give greater scope to native talent. Finally, it wished to produce more programmes of an educational and instructive nature.

The increase in the television portion of the combined licence fee has made it possible for the Authority to carry out some, at least, of its plans for improving the programmes. The higher fee will augment television revenue by about £157,000 in a full year but this figure will increase according as the number of combined licences grows.

The gross excess of £556,900 on these subheads is expected to be reduced to £330,000 by savings of £26,400 elsewhere and by additional receipts of £200,500 from Appropriations-in-Aid under Subhead T. These consist of £115,000 from Telephone Capital funds as a consequence of the expanded development programme; £25,500 from the Social Insurance Fund mainly in respect of higher staff costs; £40,000 from increased issues of stores to other Government Departments on a repayment basis; and £20,000 from miscellaneous repayable services which have yielded more than expected.

Excluding the £235,000 in respect of the Broadcasting grant-in-aid, the balance of £95,000 represents less than one per cent of the original net Estimate of £12.4 million approximately.

Mr. Crotty

We on this side of the House have no objection to the Minister getting this money to carry on these services to the end of the year. There are a few points I should like to raise and one has to do with the provision of telephones. I know the Minister did mention that he proposed to devote more time and money to the development of trunk service but, at the same time, we thought that people who have been waiting for telephones would be able to get them in a reasonable time. Up to the present that has not been the case.

I applied for a telephone for a man who had just been appointed as a cattle exporter, a very important position in this country, but when I made an application on his behalf, I was told that he could not get any priority whatever, that all priorities were reserved for doctors and veterinary surgeons. I know that the line would have to be brought from his dwelling back to the sub-post office but I thought my case was a reasonable one. However, I did not get anywhere. As we have not refused the money to the Minister for the development of telephones, we are entitled to get a better service.

The Minister has made provision for increased overtime and increased social welfare contributions to the amount of £66,000. He has made no provision for the increases that will come with the ninth round up to 31st March. That will be a substantial amount and there is no provision for it. Neither has he made any provision for increases to the subpostmasters. We thought that after the recent strike, which lasted a long time, the Minister would have got down to some reasonable form of arbitration with the subpostmasters.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That matter does not arise on this Estimate.

Mr. Crotty

The Minister has made no provision for it. These men, even if they are only part-time officials, are receiving very small salaries.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That matter is not in the Estimate and only what is in the Estimate may be discussed.

Mr. Crotty

I am wondering why these items have not been put into the Estimate. The broadcasting service was under discussion last week in connection with the increase in the funds for capital development and there is no use in going over the matters raised then on this Estimate. I think the television service is much improved in recent times. The local programmes are welcomed by the people who are delighted to see something to do with their own part of the country. I hope that development will be extended in the coming year and that the people will get a good local service and fewer canned programmes.

Mr. Tully

We in the Labour Party have no objection to the Minister being provided with the money he is seeking but we wonder if there is likely to be a further Supplementary Estimate or in what way the Minister proposes to deal with the ninth round of wage increases. Unless it is not proposed to pay the increase until after the new financial year has opened, which is unthinkable, the money must be found somewhere. There has been agreement with the Civil Service that 1st February will be the operative date and I am surprised that the Minister has not taken the opportunity of including the amount in the Estimate.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

In view of the fact that it is not included, there may be no discussion on it.

Mr. Tully

May I ask the Minister if it is included?

Mr. Hilliard

It is not.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

There is nothing in the Estimate relating to increases in salary and therefore they may not be discussed.

Mr. Tully

The Minister has made provision for unforeseen developments in connection with the conveyance of mails and other matters. Would the ninth round be one of these unforeseen developments?

Mr. Hilliard

It could be a reason but it has nothing to do with the ninth round of wage increase for post office workers.

Mr. Tully

The Minister will forgive me for trying to discuss the matter under various subheads. On this matter of the carriage and conveyance of mails, some years ago we were told that this was going to be a revolutionary thing. Some of us did not think it would improve matters. Has the Minister now discovered that the new method is no faster and no cheaper? I am asking a question and I should like the Minister to comment on it. This is a matter on which many people have very decided views. A large number of people objected to the alteration in the system and now it would seem that they were right and the Minister was wrong.

Mr. Hilliard

Is the Deputy talking about the carriage of mails inside or outside the country? I wish he would make himself clear.

Mr. Tully

All I am doing is drawing attention to the unforeseen additional payment for the conveyance of mails and the Minister will forgive me if I am as confused as apparently he is in this case.

Could the Minister give me any idea as to when the embargo on phones for private people will be removed? He has stated that until enough trunk lines have been provided, there was no use in putting in additional phones. However, there was a large number of applications from people before the embargo went on and it is strange that the Minister cannot do anything for people who have been waiting for phones from three years to seven years. It is embarrassing that these people can point out to other people who were able to get connection just by making an application. Some of them told me that they had to wait only three weeks while people in the same circumstances had to wait up to seven years. Will the Minister say if that position is to be improved?

I should like to know if there will be a contra item shown in the new budgetary proposals regarding this question of increased licence fees. There is an estimated amount to be given to the Broadcasting Authority by the Post Office to cover the increased licence fee. That sum must come to the Post Office eventually because the Post Office is not making a present of anything to the Broadcasting Authority.

Mr. Hilliard

When we collect it, we will pay it.

Mr. Tully

If the general public pay the licence fee to the Post Office, this House should not have to pay that money to the Minister.

Mr. Hilliard

We have to do it under the Act. It may seem to be a peculiar procedure but that is the way it is done.

Mr. Tully

If the amount is being provided by licence fees paid to the Post Office, should they not pass it on to the Broadcasting Authority? That would be all right but how does it appear here as money that must be provided by the State?

Mr. Hilliard

I have to get the authority of the House to pay it.

Mr. Tully

Then it is only a paper transaction?

Mr. Hilliard

That is right.

Mr. Tully

I am sorry that was not made clear in the statement.

Mr. O'Sullivan

It is glamourised.

Mr. Tully

Maybe the Minister did understand it but I most certainly did not.

Mr. Hilliard

And we deduct the collection costs and pay them the net amount.

Mr. Tully

Good for you. Somebody told me the collection costs were quite substantial.

Mr. Hilliard

Very.

Mr. Tully

It took about three minutes of Post Office officials' time to collect £5 from me. I do not know what those three minutes were worth to the Post Office. The Minister may explain it at a later stage.

On the question of programmes, I consider it a good idea to have the accent on the home programmes. I referred the Minister to one matter which I hope he has followed up. I would suggest that the sporting programmes which, in fact, are admirably suited to TV, as any of us who have time to look at them know, are a very good way of filling in local programmes and in a relatively cheap way. I referred the other night to the GAA. The GAA games should get more prominence than they are getting. The fact that they are being supplied at practically nominal cost to the Authority should be borne in mind when we talk about improving local programmes.

I do not want to go into the question of the type of programme I have in mind, apart from that, but I would say that we have had a number of programmes of Irish songs, dancing and music on TV and they are really excellent. We should all be gratified by the amount of new talent appearing throughout the country as a result of these programmes. The Minister will agree with me that in Meath two very outstanding young artistes have been produced as a result of these programmes. I shall not stray any further along that line.

Another reference, which again appears to be rather on the fringe, that I want to make is to the question of subpostmasters. I should like to know whether or not it is proposed to introduce another Supplementary Estimate in respect of subpostmasters. If not, we are again going to have an awful lot of trouble with these people.

Mr. Sweetman

I only want to say a word about the telephone content of this Supplementary Estimate. I would ask the Minister to be frank with the public now before the beginning of the summer. Are we going to have the same chaos in relation to trunk lines as we had last summer? If we are going to have the same overloading this summer, will the Minister be frank with the people and tell them that they must expect it, the periods in which they must expect it and the times at which they must expect it, and tell us frankly that such an hour is an off-peak hour and that callers should try to put back their calls to the off-peak hour if they possibly can? There are many calls that could be deferred to an off-peak time if one knew what that time was but there is nothing more exasperating than being unable to get accurate information in relation to trunk call delays.

If one rings up, one is sometimes told there is a half-hour delay. I have often, as a test, immediately put down the receiver and dialled 10 again, got a different operator and got through straight away. Both cannot be right. Either the second operator was giving me a priority to which I had no right— and there was no reason on earth why he or she should—or the first operator was merely saying there was a half-hour delay for the purpose of getting shut of the inquiry. It is quite understandable if one is told that all the trunk lines are busy at the moment but that there will be a trunk line free in a minute or in ten minutes. I want the Minister to be frank with us on this. I think there is a standard instruction to operators that when they cannot get a trunk line at once, they are to say that there will be a half-hour delay. That is not a frank way of dealing with the problem.

It might be better, perhaps, if I left this until the main Estimate but the Minister might like to make some remarks now on the progress in relation to the automatic changeover. In relation to the subscriber trunk-dialling system, there is, again, a lack of frankness by the Minister with the public. The position should be explained. It might cost a little money to do it in terms of advertisements or in terms of an explanatory leaflet going out to subscribers with their accounts, telling them frankly the cause of the various queer noises one gets when one tries to dial the trunk circuits. It might help us, particularly peppery people like myself, to keep a more equable temperament on the subject. I do not know why, when one starts to dialling Kildare, one gets a blow-up on dialling the 0 or why sometimes one gets as far as dialling the 4 and sometimes succeeds in dialling the complete number and gets no tone of any sort, quite regularly, on the system of exchanges that ring around 045. If there were greater education of the public in relation to the difficulties by a frank statement by the Minister, it would be much easier for the public to appreciate and understand them and it would probably mean easier working for the telephone staffs if the public knew what they were at.

I think there is hidden away in this Estimate a reference to the Telephone Directory and I want to make a suggestion to the Minister in relation to it which I have made before. I do not know whether I can make it now or not. The Telephone Directory is divided into three parts—Dublin city and county, the rest of the country and subscribers lately connected. The part devoted to subscribers lately connected is not up to date and cannot be up to date in the nature of things because the Directory goes to print somewhere about mid-August. It has now got to the stage that no matter how well the Directory is bound, the size of the volume makes it difficult to last a full year. Would it not be far better to divide the Directory into two issues, to publish one in April for Dublin city and county, one in October for the rest of the country and have at the back of each issue the subscribers lately connected? In consequence, there would be a very much more up to date Telephone Directory. There would be exactly the same situation as we have at present: the issue proper would be a year old but you would have the supplementary issue of additions only six months old, which would help a great deal and would remove much of the loading on Directory Enquiries.

I should like the Minister to do as Deputy Tully suggested and say categorically now when he will have the trunk line installation finished from the engineering point of view and when he will be able, in consequence, to resume installation of private lines. The Minister, if the correspondence I get is any indication, must be damned with letters from people outraged because they have not got the telephone for what appear to them, with every justification, to be purposes of great urgency, after waiting a long time. This is not the time and the place to discuss priorities but we might not have the main Estimate for two or three months and it would help, before getting into the peak period in the summer, if we knew more or less what we may expect and what the ordinary telephone user can do either by deferring his calls or taking them in advance, in the early morning, to avoid peak times.

Many people would be prepared to cooperate in that respect if they got an indication of how they could do it. Last year in the chaos—that is the only word I can use for the situation then—there was no indication from the Minister and as a result one did not know whether one was likely to incur greater difficulty at 11 o'clock or at 7 o'clock and people were completely at sea. An indication would help everyone, not least those like myself who become quite peppery when you keep on ringing and get no reply or have to make half a dozen shots before getting any answer on an ordinary STD call.

Mr. O'Sullivan

It is regrettable there appears to be some confusion about the content of these Supplementary Estimates and not alone the content but also about what may not be included. It is pertinent to inquire, like other Deputies, whether the ninth round increase has been included.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The matter does not arise. The question of increases does not arise on the Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. O'Sullivan

But we may inquire whether there is provision for the increase in the Estimate?

Mr. Hilliard

It is not in it.

Mr. O'Sullivan

The Minister said a moment ago that he was not quite sure——

Mr. Hilliard

I did not.

Mr. O'Sullivan

There is no provision in it——

Mr. Hilliard

No.

Mr. O'Sullivan

Then there is not a clear indication in this of the charge on the Minister's Department?

Mr. Hilliard

There is no such provision in it for our own employees.

Mr. O'Sullivan

But is there a content in it for other employees?

Mr. Hilliard

I was asked about the contracting of mail. Other people carry mail for us, such as CIE. I am not able to say whether the increase in the payment to CIE on a contract basis includes any provision for CIE employees.

Mr. O'Sullivan

Therefore, there is doubt and confusion.

Mr. Hilliard

There is no doubt or confusion.

Mr. O'Sullivan

There were officers in the Minister's Department who were extremely clear on their opinions a short time ago when they were employed in a particular capacity in relation to the ninth round——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy seems to be proceeding to discuss the increase in wages, which does not arise on the Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. O'Sullivan

The Supplementary Estimate provides us with an opportunity of making some remarks on the operations of the Minister's Department.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Only on the various subheads.

Mr. O'Sullivan

Quite. There were certain claims in the Minister's statement with all of which we do not agree. I agree that Telefís Éireann is providing a good service. It has been the object of many brickbats and it is no harm to be critical, but I am satisfied from what I can glean that it provides a worthwhile programme for those who can watch it. Members of this House may be authorities on the mail system and may have plenty of experience of telephone operation but the nature of their duties as public representatives does not make them conversant personally with the content of television programmes. Still, our constituents wish to be satisfied with the service for which they are paying more than was originally expected.

The Minister has at his command additional finances which he got by virtue of increased payments by licence-holders for both sound and television and it is natural that the people should come to their public representatives and express views about the return they are getting for their investment in licences. Again it is our duty to expose any complaints brought forward. Included in the Estimate is provision for the expenses incurred by Telefís Éireann in televising many programmes outside Montrose and I want to know from the Minister what occurred to one particular programme. No doubt some expense was incurred and the House is being asked to vote moneys to cover such programmes.

What happened the televising of the Commemoration ceremonies at Béal na mBláth last year. It would be interesting to know what happened this recording. There are very strong rumours that something queer occurred. I am not charging anybody in authority in Telefís Éireann with having deliberately omitted this programme but it would be well to clear the air because there are many rumours current about the disappearance of this recording. Those who pay licence fees and the taxpayers invested in the expenses incurred in making this record and it is a disturbing matter to many people, particularly in Cork city and county and I am sure throughout the country, that the ceremony was filmed but was not projected on the television screen.

We have pretty faithful reporting of many events throughout the country but again there are occasions on which inexplicable errors are committed. We had the remarkable occasion before Christmas when a ceremony was televised at which the Taoiseach was presented and immediately after him we had Deputy P.J. Burke of County Dublin presented as the Tánaiste. The Tánaiste does not suffer very much from humility and I was rather surprised—

Mr. Barry

A fine man, anyway.

Mr. Corish

He should be the Tánaiste.

Mr. O'Sullivan

Perhaps the question of size entered into it, but the presentation of a particular Deputy as Tánaiste was a pretty formidable error on the part of whoever was responsible.

In regard to sound radio, I was one of the first to appeal on the main Estimate for more frequent news summaries and I want to express pleasure at the way this appeal was responded to by whoever is responsible. Shorter and more frequent newscasts appear to be the order of the day.

I want to inquire whether the Supplementary Estimate contains money intended to meet the demands of the subpostmasters. This situation cannot be allowed to continue.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

On this Supplementary Estimate the matter may not relevantly be discussed. I am sure the Deputy will get another opportunity of discussing it.

Mr. O'Sullivan

While it is understandable that a certain amount of difficulty and confusion should be created by the rearrangement of mail collections in an effort to speed up particular services, nevertheless confusion still exists in relation to the extreme changes that were affected. I want to know if there is any suitable directory available from which people may get information regarding such changes. We have had townlands divided not among two post offices but in some cases among three. While there may be a logical explanation regarding better services, it is still confusing to very many people.

The public were very satisfied with the announcement that educational programmes were to be launched on Telefís Éireann but I want to ask why there were not adequate preliminary consultations with teachers' representatives before the announcement was made.

Like Deputy Sweetman, I am concerned about the service provided by the Department in regard to telephone inquiries. I was amazed to hear from one of my constituents, who was aware that a relative was staying at a particular guesthouse, the address of which he knew, but did not know the surname of the proprietor, that when he wanted to telephone this person urgently, he was informed by Directory Inquiries that a street directory was not provided for those in the inquiry section. A few months ago, I had the experience in the United States of being able to ring up anybody without having the phone number: by providing the name and address, the telephone number was produced in a matter of minutes. If that can be done in a country where millions of people have telephones, surely we could improve our service. I should be grateful if the Minister could answer my questions, even at such short notice.

Mr. Corish

The Minister on page two of his brief says that the money which he is now seeking from the House is to be used to provide additional trunk circuits. That in itself is a welcome development but can the Minister give any indication or any hope to those people who have been waiting so long for telephones that the waiting period will be reduced to any extent? I have been asked frequently to intercede with the Minister or his Department to get telephones for people, especially people in rural areas. Inevitably the reply is that there is no possibility of providing a telephone in the near future and that it will be quite a long time before it will be provided.

On occasions the Minister has said that he cannot get enough engineers or technicians to do the work and on other occasions he has said that the equipment is not available. I have no reason to believe or disbelieve the Minister but it is ludicrous to say that in the year 1964 people have to wait for years to obtain telephones. That is not an exaggeration. Everybody has not got to wait so long but there are people who have been waiting for years to get telephones. Surely such a situation should not be tolerated unless the reason is valid and the Minister cannot get engineers or equipment.

We are doing all sorts of things in this country. We are going to purchase supersonic jets. Yet people cannot communicate with each other. Those who are living six or seven miles outside provincial towns are told they will have to wait a considerable time before getting telephones. I had occasion to ask for a telephone to be installed in the premises of a chemist but it could not be done. Surely we should give priority to a man who closes shop at six o'clock but who guarantees a 24-hour service every day. If this man is to engage in his business, every effort should be made to provide him with a telephone, not only for his own sake but for the sake of those relying on him to fill prescriptions. The Minister must be aware that there is grave dissatisfaction with the long periods people have to wait for telephones. While saying that, everybody appreciates the Minister's difficulty but a greater effort should be made to ensure that telephones will be supplied within three or four months.

I am glad that the Minister on page three has acknowledged that some of the criticisms of Telefís Éireann have been justified. He says that the Authority desires to improve the present level of programmes and that it was anxious to reduce its dependency on films of American origin. Deputies from both sides have criticised them for the fifth-rate films they have been importing since they were established. If this is going to mean that they will cut down on the number of out-dated American films they get, the money will be well spent. If he can, the Minister should enlarge on those seven or eight lines.

The Minister and the television Authority are much too sensitive about criticism. Criticism is healthy, but criticism from members of Parliament does not seem to be tolerated. Every television critic and newspaper can criticise Telefís Éireann and people can write to the newspapers, particularly to the Evening Press and the Evening Herald about television programmes and nobody seems to take exception. The Press regard it as healthy public discussion but when anybody in this House criticises Telefís Éireann, the Authority and those in charge and the Minister and the people in his Department throw up their hands and say we should not bring politics into Telefís Éireann.

When we talk about Telefís Éireann, we do not want to appear in the role of politicians; we are speaking as viewers or as fathers, as ordinary individuals who look at Telefís Éireann and we genuinely try to give the point of view of people we represent. These are not people who can take up the telephone and tell Telefís Éireann what they think of this or that programme. The people I represent do not want to rush into print or write to newspapers or the Minister. While I exonerate the Minister of responsibility for programmes that appear on Telefís Éireann, occasions like this should be used to express honest criticism of the Authority both in regard to television and sound broadcasting.

It is, as I say, encouraging to know that the Authority are trying to reduce their dependence on films of American origin and to enlarge the scope of their film purchases. Perhaps the Minister would expand on that. Does this mean British films or Canadian films——

Mr. Hilliard

Other films from various places.

Mr. Corish

That is very welcome. "Give greater prominence to drama"—everybody would agree with that. "To undertake more feature programmes with deeper coverage of the country as a whole"—and God save us from "Location.""To increase the content of home produced programmes and to give greater scope to native talent." If money is spent in that direction, it will be worthwhile.

Finally, the Minister says that the Authority wished to produce more programmes of an educational and instructive nature. I do not know whether the Minister can answer this or not, but I am told that the people who appear on educational programmes, giving lectures, demonstrations, and so on, are pretty badly paid. I cannot mention the figure, but I know that some people who appear on Telefís Éireann who do not open their mouths, who confine themselves to performing some menial actions, are paid extremely well. To a certain extent, of course, it is good advertising for them in the promotion of their careers, but I think the Minister ought to inquire as to what fees are paid to those who are doing such an important job on the educational programmes. We appreciate that these programmes have started only in the past few weeks, but they can be of tremendous value to schools, colleges, convents, etc. They may, however, fall down if we regard them as fifth or sixth rate features because of paying such small fees. I make no specific allegation. I said, deirtear liom, that is the situation. Perhaps the Minister and his officials will inquire into it.

In regard to programmes generally, there is a dearth of music. The Minister may say, and quite rightly, that music is the prerogative of sound broadcasting. That is true, but there is practically no music at all on Telefís Éireann. Any there is is of the "pop" or, shall I say, "Beatle" type. Some time ago, the Radio Éireann Symphony Orchestra gave excellent performances on Sunday night. We have dancing contests with dance music of the Forties, which may be nostalgic for many of us, but, apart from that, there is just no music. Some may say there is room for both, sound broadcasting and television. I do not care what anyone says, but sound broadcasting will eventually go out and television will be the medium of communication. I think Telefís Éireann ought to try to get more reasonably good music into its programmes; otherwise, it will fail to provide for many people who want to listen to good music.

Mr. P. Hogan

(South Tipperary): Judging by the discussions so far, at any rate, the ninth round of wage increases is not included in this Supplementary Estimate and we must, therefore, regard this Estimate as incomplete.

The question of rural telephones is a hardy annual here. I, too, have my list of complaints about delay in installation. I rather imagine this situation will obtain this year, next year, and the year after. It will be a problem always with us. That does not mean, however, that we are not entitled, indeed obliged, to keep pressing the Minister on every possible occasion and encouraging him to keep, in turn, pressing his officials to work to maximum capacity for the purpose of speeding up the installation of telephones in rural areas. These telephones will, in time, pay a dividend. This is a worthwhile commercial expenditure and we are, I think, justified in raising the matter again and again, even though it may prove boringly repetitive.

The Minister referred to increased expenditure on overtime in connection with mails, telephones and accountancy. We have something in the region of 60,000 unemployed and I should like to know from the Minister if any effort is made, when the question of overtime arises, to recruit suitable personnel from these 60,000 unemployed, thereby keeping down overtime costs. It is understandable that the officials naturally like to corner a bit of overtime for themselves, but I think the Minister should be at pains to make work of a non-specialist nature available for suitable unemployed personnel; the unemployed should be drafted in to do the work during peak periods. I do not know whether he has examined into that aspect. If he has not, I would exhort him to do so. I should like to hear what he has to say about it when he comes to reply.

I find it difficult to understand the increased costings in regard to accountancy, in view of the Minister's statement here. Perhaps I have misinterpreted him. He says that overtime on telephones has been partly on the engineering side and partly on the accounting side, where further mechanisation has been introduced to enable the rapidly growing volume of accounts to be efficiently and economically handled. In one breath, he speaks of increased mechanisation to cope with the work and, in the next, he is asking for more money to enable him to cope with it. It is difficult to reconcile these two statements. Perhaps the innovations have not yet begun to fructify.

There are increased travelling expenses in connection with the installation of telephones. Yet, we are complaining of delay in the installation of these telephones.

Would the Minister clarify his statement in respect of the cost of additional purchases of stores on behalf of other Government Departments?

Mr. Hilliard

The Post Office buys stores for other Government Departments.

Mr. P. Hogan

(South Tipperary): Telephone equipment?

Mr. Hilliard

Cloth for the Army, wire for the Land Commission, and a whole lot of other things.

Mr. P. Hogan

(South Tipperary): But the Minister is recouped at a later stage?

Mr. Hilliard

Oh, yes, on a cash basis. We place the contracts, accept delivery of the goods, and the Departments pay for them.

Mr. P. Hogan

(South Tipperary): Increased money is to be provided in order to increase the content of home-produced programmes on television and give greater scope to native talent. I think the Minister will have universal support for that principle. If, however, we try to improve our programmes by introducing more native talent, surely we are entitled then to expect improved performances from the personnel of Telefís Éireann. I have occasionally watched very poor performances on Telefís Éireann. I remember occasions when one could hardly see the performance except through a smokescreen thrown up by a monosyllabic cigarette-smoking female employed by Telefís Éireann, dominating the scene completely. Apart from public health considerations altogether, does the Minister consider it quite proper to have officials of Telefís Éireann coming on the screen, puffing cigarette smoke into the faces so to speak, of viewers? Carrying it a bit further, may I ask does he consider the excessive use of Christian names and the atmosphere of over-familiarity it engenders is conducive to a proper presentation in Telefís Éireann? Admittedly, it is very homely but if we carry that atmosphere around with us, I shall start addressing the Minister as “Michael” and the Ceann Comhairle will call me to order immediately.

I would ask the Minister to attend to these two points: cigarette-smoking and the "Hello, Mick" and "Hello, Jack" atmosphere which is prevalent in Telefís Éireann. It is hard to expect that we can be completely satisfied that the £157,000 extra which the Minister is getting in licence fees for a year will be returned in full value in the educational, cultural and entertainment spheres if this atmosphere of over-familiarity, this atmosphere of parlour games and buffoonery is allowed to continue in Telefís Éireann.

Mr. Hilliard

Last year I issued a statement which I thought was a complete exposition of the telephone situation and, in introducing the Telephone Capital Bill recently, I explained at great length to the House and to the country the position that confronted me in relation to the telephone network when I accepted this office of Minister for Posts and Telegraphs. I then pointed out to the House that since I became Minister, I had taken all steps open to me to improve the position and to secure the necessary capital money to enable a complete reconstruction of the telephone network to be carried out by the Engineering Branch of the Department.

It is impossible for me to deal with complaints in relation to individual cases that have been raised by Deputies in regard to the installation of telephones. It is also a very difficult matter in the situation that exists at the moment and has existed for a long number of years past, to depart from a priority list in relation to the installation of telephones. I have gone to great lengths to explain to the people and to the members of this House the steps the Department are taking to carry out this colossal job of development. No effort is being spared by the Department to increase the technical staff available to it and to increase the intake of university graduate engineers for this work.

Deputy Corish said I offered various explanations in relation to the chaotic conditions that existed last summer in this service. It all depends upon the time at which the statement was made. I explained to the House on many occasions that orders for telephone equipment cannot be filled overnight. The equipment must be designed. What is needed must be specified and the contract must be placed. All of these contracts are placed abroad. Sweden, Germany, Britain and the United States supply this country with telephone equipment.

There is a long delay between the date of ordering the equipment and the date of its delivery. It may be one or two years, and in some cases three years, before delivery is secured. We are in the market in competition with other administrations who need this equipment. Many of them are in much the same position as we are in ourselves in relation to telephone services; the demand has exceeded all expectations. The demand here has exceeded all expectations. That demand has been created by increased productivity, the buoyancy of the economy, and by an increase in business and manufacturing activity within the State over the past five years. The public are becoming more educated in relation to the cheap service the telephone system can provide for them.

There was no time, since I became Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, when there was no delay in obtaining delivery of this equipment. At the same time, we were building up the technical force. The technical force at the disposal of the Department is now 50 per cent greater than it was in 1960. I am speaking off the cuff but I think that is right. These people cannot be trained overnight.

In relation to the overtime that is being worked on the engineering side, may I point out to Deputy Hogan, who wanted to know why we do not take in other people instead of working overtime, that the people engaged in this work are trained personnel. They cannot be found in the street or at the labour exchange. They must be brought in as youths or intelligent men who can be trained to this kind of work, who have the gift of using their hands and becoming efficient in this work in a short space of time. That is what the engineering branch are doing in this regard.

As a result of the steps I took in 1960 to secure the authority of the Government to seek the approval of the Oireachtas for the expenditure of £10 million there is now a steady rhythm in the delivery of equipment to this country from the manufacturers and we hope that, unless something of an untoward nature occurs, that equipment will keep coming into the country and that we shall be in a position to use it expeditiously in order to overtake the colossal arrears of work that have accrued over the years.

There is not any ban on the installation of telephones. It is a mistaken idea for any Deputy to think that I announced a ban on such installations. They are being installed at a steady rate throughout the country. I shall not have the full figure for the year ending 31st March until after 31st March but the rate of installation this year is very slightly less than the rate of installation last year.

Mr. Crotty

They must all be in Dublin.

Mr. Hilliard

No, they are all over the country. It is working in this way. I made a decision this year that, in telephone exchange areas where this essential trunk work had to be done first, no telephone would be installed until that work was completed but, in areas where we have the necessary network to carry the traffic, telephones are being installed.

It is the practice of the Department to instal the telephones area by area. They deal with a whole area at a time and clear all the applications made within a telephone exchange area, except those involving very heavy construction work. That means that people who are waiting maybe two years are connected and people who applied only three months previously are also connected at the same time. It is the most economical way in which the telephones can be installed.

I do not think I could under any circumstances accept the responsibility of instructing the Telephones Branch or the Engineering Branch to go here, there and everywhere else all over the country in an effort to connect a single telephone. It is such a diversified job that it would be a complete waste of engineering time to take on the installation of telephones on that class of a system. There is no use in my telling the House or in being anything but frank in relation to this matter. We are not in a position to meet the demand until the back is broken in the arrears of trunk work. That work must be completed before we can seriously take on the job of increasing the installation of telephones and I would say that that will take at least another two years.

Mr. P. Hogan

(South Tipperary): The Minister mentioned that the difficulty is to import equipment. Do we make none of this equipment at home?

Mr. Hilliard

I do not think so.

Mr. P. Hogan

(South Tipperary): Is all of it imported?

Mr. Hilliard

Yes.

Mr. P. Hogan

(South Tipperary): Why?

Mr. Hilliard

Nobody in this country is making it. We buy some minor items of equipment from a couple of firms here but generally the equipment we need is all manufactured abroad. It has been my policy and that of previous Ministers, I think, to try to conserve as far as possible the capital moneys made available for telephone development. In so doing, the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs is forced into the position of denying the person who lives over a certain distance from an exchange a telephone for a long period of time.

The long-line cases, as they are called are deferred: that has been the practice in the Department of Posts and Telegraphs for a number of years past. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the decision which I took this year in relation to the provision of the trunk network first. It is a separate matter. It has been my policy to defer these long-line cases in order to conserve the capital available to me-and the same applied to former Ministers for Posts and Telegraphs for a long period. They wished to make the greatest possible general use of the capital moneys provided by this House for the purpose of telephone development. Capital moneys are got from the yearly capital formation. Unless the formation is there, the capital moneys cannot be advanced to the Department of Posts and Telegraphs for this most essential work.

There is no harm in my reminding the House again that in this decade the State will invest £40 million in telephone development. I cannot in any circumstances push the installation of this work at any faster rate. I have, of course, decided that we shall put as much of this work to contract as we possibly can. If we can get private contractors to contract for work of this nature we shall avail of their services to speed up the work but, in the main, it will have to be carried out by the Engineering Branch of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs.

In so far as making predictions in regard to what the traffic position will be next summer, I would not wish to enter into that field. It all depends on the amount of traffic that will offer on the exchanges. It is very difficult to estimate the amount of traffic that will offer in any particular week, even a week in advance, or in any particular day.

Deputy Sweetman asked me to give an assurance that during the summer months ahead the situation will not be as bad as it was last summer. I think the standard of the telephone service at the moment is as good as ever it was. I could not under any circumstances make a forecast as to what it will be like in the summer unless I had some indication of the amount of traffic that would offer. I am of the opinion that as a result of the work carried out since we got in equipment we were waiting for, and which arrived about the middle of last summer—the increase in the trunk circuits and the outlets from the various exchanges and the increase in the outlets from the central exchange here in Dublin—we shall be able to handle more traffic more efficiently than we handled it last summer. But then we would have to assume that a greater volume of traffic would not be offering.

There may be a steep increase in the volume of traffic offering in this country next summer. I have no objection whatsoever to considering the the matter and to giving consideration to the issue periodically of statements from the Department of Posts and Telegraphs setting out what the prospects might be a short period of time in advance. I shall have the suggestions made by Deputy Sweetman in relation to giving the public notice of peak hours and the other suggestions he made in that regard examined fully by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. If we think it will be of material benefit to the users of telephones, I shall see that the Department of Posts and Telegraphs will make announcements periodically during the summer months in relation to the question of telephone traffic.

It is no pleasure to me to know that the telephone situation last year was chaotic. It was chaotic and I knew it to be so, but there was absolutely nothing I could do about it. The traffic was such that the network was not able to take it. It is a mechanical business that I could not possibly be expected to remedy in such a short period.

Mr. Sweetman

What infuriated people was that nobody would admit it was chaotic.

Mr. Hilliard

I admitted it at all times. If the Deputy reads my statements on the introduction of my Estimate in any of the years since I became Minister, he will find I made reference to the fact that we were lagging behind, that we had colossal arrears of work, that we were not in a position to carry the traffic offering. Over the years, I have made several efforts to induce the Government to invest greater sums of money in this business.

I was asked about the ninth round of wage and salary increases. This is a Supplementary Estimate dealing with specific matters listed here under various subheads. It deals with moneys that fall due for payment up to 31st March next, and that only. In so far as the pay of the Civil Service is concerned, that is a matter primarily for the Minister for Finance. As Deputies will know, the policy followed by the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs for a number of years past has been that the Department must pay its way and any increase in costs must be taken into consideration in regard to the charges the public have to meet for the services the Post Office renders to them.

Deputies can accordingly take it for granted that with a steep rise in wage and salary scales, the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, when introducing his main Estimate for next year, or perhaps before that, will have to tell the House what the increased charges will be to the people in order to recover the moneys that will fall due for the payment of increased wages and salaries so that the revenue accounts of the Post Office will balance at the end of the year and show a small profit.

Mr. O'Sullivan

The people were not told that a fortnight ago.

Mr. Hilliard

The public are not fools. They know you cannot pay out money without getting it in. That was the mistake Deputy O'Sullivan made— telling the people that they would get all and pay nothing.

Mr. O'Sullivan

You are committed to give it to them—more and more.

Mr. Hilliard

Of the extra payment for the conveyance of mails slightly less than one third is due to extra traffic and, slightly less than one third is due to the incidence of payment for air mails. We cannot control the terms at which Post Office authorities in other countries demand payment. The balance is due to a change in the manner of paying a CIE contract. There will be two extra months' payments this year.

Deputy O'Sullivan also asked about the townlands in the different postal areas. We have no directory of addresses, or any other published document, showing how the townlands are allocated, but information can be obtained in this respect from the head postmaster of the area concerned. If he has any difficulty in getting the information from that source, the Deputy can take the matter up with me and I will see what the situation is. These things may affect individuals or groups of individuals when changes are made.

Mr. Sweetman

Would the Minister not consider publishing a general postal directory that would include the full addresses of sub-post offices?

Mr. Hilliard

We could consider that, but it might be a costly business.

Mr. Sweetman

Perhaps the Minister might prefer that I would put down a question about it.

Mr. Hilliard

It might mean putting another halfpenny on the stamp.

Mr. O'Sullivan

People might be prepared to pay for such a service.

Mr. Sweetman

I shall put down a little question about it.

Mr. Clohessy

I thought the Deputy had been quietened.

Mr. Sweetman

The Deputy should be quiet after the Rathdangan box.

Mr. Hilliard

As regards the amount for broadcasting, that is shown in the figures in the Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. Tully

Will there not be a contra-item, showing the income?

Mr. Hilliard

Deputy Corish asked what additional programmes there would be. I must tell the House that the educational programmes are a matter for settlement between the Minister for Education and the Broadcasting Authority. They are the responsibility of the Minister for Education and any question relating to payments to persons engaged in these programmes is a matter for him. It is for him to answer such questions. I do not know how their salaries and allowances compare with others in the service.

The question of television programmes generally has been raised by many Deputies and there were suggestions in relation to particular programmes. All these suggestions will be passed on to the Broadcasting Authority. It is not true to say that nobody pays any heed to what Deputies say in relation to Radio Éireann programmes, generally, through both media. I take a deep interest in what Deputies say in relation to television programmes. The Authority do also, but the Authority have to make up their minds as to how they should conduct their business.

I do not interfere in the ordinary day to day matters of television programming. I have an overriding responsibility in relation to the type of programme the Authority broadcast. I have to see that they do not overstep their responsibility in regard to the standards we hope the Authority will maintain. Beyond that, as I have already said, I do not interfere in the day to day arrangement of programmes or in the setting up of any programme or how it is conducted.

There are many ways of putting across a live television programme. I think that the programmes where people are relaxed and so on are the best programmes. It might not seem proper to have people smoking and being over-familiar in addressing one another, but there are people who like that sort of thing. The Authority, by and large, are doing a fair good job in relation to home-produced discussion programmes. At times, of course, people are not too pleased with what is said about themselves, but we all have to take it. We are here as public representatives. Anybody who stands for election or who is engaged in politics must learn to take it.

Mr. Sweetman

If you have not got a thick skin, you have no business.

Mr. Hilliard

He need not have a thick skin but he must be able to take it.

Mr. Tully

He should not have to pay somebody to insult him.

Vote put and agreed to.